Re: LW2, for most people four years of no sex means the marriage is already fucked. Add another four years to that, and they will have gone the better part of decade. It appears the only reason they are together is for their daughter. Busy people all over the world find time to have sex... if they actually want to have sex.

They are in a companionate marriage. Good for them for as long as it works, but I suspect once their daughter flies the nest, they will have no reason to be together.

People will make time for whatever is important to them. In JABBER's case, work, household chores, time with their daughter, vacations, and evening family time are all more important than sex. If that's what they want, so be it. I'd have bailed out long ago, but other people simply don't place importance on sex... good thing two of them are married to each other in this case and aren't making two different people miserable.

Glad it's working, JABBER, but you sound like you are rationalizing. Urgutha@2 is right. You just don't place any importance on sex (and that's OK). Just don't expect it to magically return in a few years. This is your pattern. This is your mindset. There will always be something else on the table (and apparently it won't be your wife, bent over.) If sex was even remotely attractive to you, you'd find a way to get it in (pun intended).

SO glad I do not have kids.I mean, good for this guy but GAWD.

Our daughter at 14 is self-assured, capable, independent, and not remotely done needing her parents. This is hard work.

I have a pair of cousins - one has a severe mental disability and will never be able to be fully independent, have a professional job, etc; the other is a stone-cold certified genius and is moving up the corporate ranks and he's not even 25. My mother, and their parents, both agree, that the "smart one" is the true Special Needs Child: Multiple summer camps, multiple clubs and volunteer stuff at high school, limitless curiosity, very social and outgoing, the whole 9.

All that is to say, I like that quote.

WOES was expecting daily PIV sex with his wife as a fix for his insomnia? What kind of marriage is this horror story? Does he think of his wife as a hole in the mattress?

"Intimacy, for the two of us at least, has always been a combination of being able to connect in a number of non-sexual ways before getting into fun naked stuff"

I find this so odd. Mr. P. and I connect in all those non-sexual ways right in front of our children: talking, sitting close on the couch, hugging, lending each other a hand with chores... And then later we lock the door to our room and have the fun naked stuff. When we're stretched thin, the fun naked stuff might be a five minute quickie, but I wouldn't want to go without it for a month, let alone for years!

"From our perspective, our kid is cooler than sex."

But on what planet do you have to choose between sex and spending time with your kid? Your fourteen year old is off all day at school, and presumably doesn't sleep in your room when you're not traveling. It's so odd to see it as a choice between incompatible paths.

JABBER if you're happy with your life more power to you. There's nothing wrong with a companionate marriage.

But what happens when you daughter leaves and the sex doesn't come back? Donny is right and I get the feeling that your banking on your sex life returning when she's out of the house. So what happens when it doesn't?

I don't understand what people find so shocking about Jabber. And nice swipes:

1. "Rationalization" - no really, people are allowed to have different priorities in life. There ARE only twenty four hours in a day. Some of that has to be taken up with working, eating, sleeping and yes spending time with your kid(s). So people prioritize. He's allowed to choose to have sex take a lower priority. Really. Without lying to himself.

2. "Companionate marriage that is going to blow up as soon as the rug rat leaves home because they don't have anything else." - where does that come from? Sounds like the husband and wife DO share interests beyond their kid. Traveling seems way up there. And maybe they do both have lower sex drives.... and..... is the only reason that people are allowed to get married is to bang a lot? As versus be intimate in other ways.

3. "Being intimate as a warm up" as a cop out - What? First, I don't do foreplay in front of my kids. Sure. My hub and I hold hands and sit together arm in arm. But we don't get naked and pet each other to warm up. We also don't kiss each other in front of our kids. I guess... I was raised in a repressive waspy environment, but we don't do public displays of affection like that. Sounds like that is what this LW needs to enjoy sex. I get it; he's a man. I doubt anyone would be rolling their eyes like they are had he been a woman. I am sure we'd have had a few of the ladies who say, "phew" glad I am not such a slow starter, but no one would be shocked. Well there are men out there who like a little warm up also.

4. As to whether sex comes back. I don't know. Neither do you. My sex life has ebbed and flowed, especially around my pregnancies and little kids. Its entirely possible it will gin back up. More importantly, they seem happy on the whole where they are.

People are allowed to be different, reach different conclusions, and make different priorities. It's okay. And that doesn't mean that they are lying their butts off.

@9, I don't think he is lying, but I do think he might be a bit delusional. He says "we'd like to have more sex than no sex," but then goes to lengths to explain why that hasn't happened.

For four years. And possibly four more.

If he is lying to anyone, it's to himself.

@9 said it all.

@10 I think his point is that he is seeing things in the perspective of the long term, and that soon (when the kid starts a new phase of her life) they will make it a priority again. If they don't, then perhaps he will reconsider. But right now, it seems not a big deal to him to forfeit four years of sexual activity for the larger family life. I don't think that's lying to himself. I think it's being very clear. What he does need to do, if he really does want the sex to come back in a year or so, is make it a priority. And that would involve having the wife on board, and we haven't heard her side. So whether or not he's accurate or he's lying to himself really depends on that.

BTW, I think we have some perception bias here. It's not unlikely that SL readers and commenters would give sex a higher priority in their lives. There's no way I'd do four years like this, but I know that other people don't see it as such a big deal.

Dancing with the Stars? Different strokes for different folks and all that, but damn, I don't think I could stay in a relationship with someone who'd rather catch up on DWTS than have sex with me. If I'm losing that zero sum game, I'm zeroing that guy out of my life.

@12: There's no way I'd do four years like this

Yeah, you and the vast majority of people, including married couples with children.

I know that other people don't see it as such a big deal

There are very few people that would see a four-year bout of abstinence with their spouse as no big deal. Maybe this couple is a statistical anomaly, or maybe there is something else going on here that's not discussed in the letter. The former seems less likely than than the latter, but who knows?

I don't want to speculate any further, given this guy probably reads Savage Love. I would be intrigued to see him or his wife join the comments.

Yeah I'm on Team Not Once In Four Years?? Does the daughter not sleep over at friends houses? Go to parties at youth group or girl scouts or whatever? Spend a few hours riding bikes around the neighborhood with neighbor kids?
It's fine to not be interested enough in sex to make time for it but if your daughter is seriously never out of your presence for 3-4 hours besides school...I don't think that's healthy.

LW2. Whatever.
LW1. Thanks for the update.

EmmaLiz@12 "There's no way I'd do four years like this, but I know that other people don't see it as such a big deal.

Point is, those "other people" are unlikely to flip a magical switch and all of a sudden start humping like bunnies at some date years into the future.

@14

I think sexless marriages are more common than you realize. And for a lot of people, it's the better choice over divorce or sleeping around. The unique thing about this LW is his open presentation of this situation as being no big deal - NOT the fact that they haven't had sex in four years.

I know the feeling of "everything is ALMOST perfect, and I have hope that this one imperfect thing will get better" and it's a much more powerful feeling than "hopefully turning my life upside down, splitting my assets, changing my retirement plans and disrupting my daughter's childhood will result in a perfect situation". The breaking point happens when the imperfect thing starts to become important enough to disrupt all the other perfect things. And any sane person will accept that nothing is ever totally perfect, so even that can go on for a while. In my own case, it's never been the really high priority stuff that was imperfect (including sex), but I certainly understand the feeling - every long term married person does. For this person, then, I'm willing to accept that sex is an important thing, but not such a high priority breaking point thing. (Again, I think it's my non-western background making the difference here. In more traditional societies, almost no one goes into marriage expecting decades of hot sex.)

It's actually really good for your kid to see non-sexual intimacy between the two of you - there is zero need to cut back on that stuff just because there's a kid in the house.

My husband and I raised two kids, and while yes, that does mean some changes to your sex life at times, it doesn't mean you need to go straight to "nothing at all". You can have valuable one on one time with your kid, valuable family time, AND valuable sex with your spouse - you might have to choose in the moment, but over the course of the month, there is room for all. We also had crazy schedules and much travel, but all that means is that sometimes the two of you are alone in the house at two in the afternoon on a Tuesday - stop unpacking and doing laundry (things you can do with your kid around, or even with your kid) and use that time to put a little back into the intimacy jar.

Try doubling up on some of this - doing chores together also counts as family time, for example, as does snuggling with your spouse on the couch while working on your kid's exposure to classic movies.

@EmmaLiz and others: I think what some of us are calling foul on is, the guy seems to be a bit deluded? over-justifying? about his situation. If he actually said what you said about settling for a companionate marriage most people would probably just respect his choice. Instead he's all like "We can find absolutely zero hours in nearly half a decade to have sex but as soon as the chick is out of the nest it's on!!!" And we're like, "Ooookay. Let me know how that works out for ya."

God people, as a group these commenters are one big bunch of negative. Let's all shit on what sounds like the nicest guy in the world. Let him be, Jesus.

I am whipped right now so I think I came across unduly aggressive, and if I wasn't so damned tired I'd find the stats but my recollection is that there are marriages where people have sex like four times a year... not a small portion either. I also note that his wife is gone a great deal. I am also a person who cannot imagine living lw's life, but I also recognize that there is substantial deviation in this arena. I am pretty sure my mom hadn't had sex in thirty years. Dead serious. Lack of time; lack of opportunity. There really are people who are good with a low sex existence. People don't go tooting their horns about it, though. To me it sounds like lw and his wife are on the same wave length. Good with that.

All of life is a rationalization, wth? My job falls short of perfection. My husband too. I love the man and I "rationalize" why I stay with him despite his many imperfections. Life isn't perfect. We don't live forever; we don't have all the money we could want; and I didn't get to sleep with Sean Connery. So I make a deal - in my job, my life, with time. It's just this man has had the terminity to disclose the inner workings of his decision to balance what he has against how much he wants more sex (not much). He's made the Faustian bargain we all do in some form or another, but when it comes to sex and this board, deciding to forgoing sexy times is an anathema.

I love sex. It's way up my priorities. Cleaning out the sink, not so much. I've just made my bargain. He's made a different one. He hopes that a new bargain can be worked out. perhaps he'll get it up to once every four months and m, while that might make me walk from the table, it may be a great deal to him.

Putting a child so far in front of your marriage and sexual/romantic relationship is SUCH a bad idea! I shudder to think to what extent that girl thinks she's the center of the universe.

I find it strange that no one has pointed this out until now (unless I read the comments too quickly): we know the guy isn't getting any sex, by his own admission, but since his wife travels regularly, she may actually be getting a lot on the side that he doesn't know (or has decided not to think) about.

Maybe he's the only low-libido person in the marriage, and she's found a way to stay married and stay sane. For the sake of their daughter, of course.

JABBER's acronym stands for "Juggling All Balls, Balancing Every Requirement." I think the reason his letter is drawing such a sharp reaction is that he isn't balancing things AT ALL. He has absolutely given up on sex. He has assigned it zero value. He has made it his lowest priority. If someone said, " I like to go to the movies," and I found out he hadn't been to a movie in four years, I'd say he wasn't being honest about his fondness for the movies. But rather than acknowledge that he is choosing a sexless life, JABBER rationalizes it as a selfless act of paternal sacrifice. This is what ticks me off about his letter. By insisting that love for his child precludes any sort of trade-off for romantic time with his wife, he is implicitly condemning every parent who does have sex. "Oh, you sent your kids to Grandma's for a week and went to the Bahamas with your wife? I guess you just don't love your kids as much as I love mine."

@ 27 - People who never have sex tend to adopt an attitude of moral superiority (see: the Catholic Church, Commentor Comltatus). Not because they are in fact morally superior, but because they feel so shitty inside for repressing their body's needs that they have to try and convince themselves it makes them better people.

I'd rather be a happy slut.

I'd hate to be the daughter whose parents use her as an excuse to not have sex.

I'm glad they're happy. Most people in their position wouldn't be, but I'm glad it's working for them. (Wonder if Mrs JABBER would write the same letter.)

One point I'd like to make: "The kid's in the same hotel room on a roll-away. Neither hanky nor panky is on offer in that situation."

She's FOURTEEN. Did it occur to Mr and Mrs Sexless that SHE might like some privacy?

@27 I knew a guy who liked doing normal stuff with friends (movies, eating out, bars, etc.) but he decided one year that he wasn't going to do ANY extraneous spending because there was a big fan event he was going to go to that he wanted to be able to spend whatever he wanted and buy whatever he wanted. He even told me that for that whole year he'd get his friends needling him about it...but he was successful, he certainly bought/spent however he wanted that weekend. But to claim that because he went a year without going to a movie means that his overall liking movies (or liking going out with friends) was in question seems a bit off...his priorities were simply different at the time, and maybe a little foreign to people who didn't agree with his new set of priorities.

@30 (BiDanFan): It might not be an issue of whether or not the daughter would like privacy; it might not be affordable to get a separate hotel room. It never has been for me, if the kids were/are actually coming on the vacation or trip, too.

JABBER seems to be content with his life, justifications, rationalizations, or not. Mrs. JABBER hasn't written in complaining, so she may well be satisfied with her life as it is, too. Furthermore, he wasn't asking for advice, but trying to share a perspective which might be helpful for those in relatively sexless marriages--not necessarily as totally sexless as his has been and is likely to be for the next 4 years--when it's the presence of kids that puts the kibosh on sex. If a few resentful people read JABBER's letter and decide to readjust their attitudes to a situation which is unlikely to change for sometime, it will have done some good.
I believe research has shown that couples tend to report higher satisfaction with their sex life once their kids have left the nest (one reason having them come back home is fraught for their parents, btw). There's nothing wrong with holding out hope that things will improve some day and suggesting you find satisfaction with what you currently have.

For those who wouldn't take the JABBERs' approach, well luckily for you, you don't have to. No one is forcing you to renounce sex for 8 years. JABBER doesn't consider himself broke' you don't have to try to fix him. Although it's not so much "fixing" his "problem" that people are doing, so much as excoriating him for not being upset with his situation and not wanting to change it.

I find it interesting that if a lw wrote in saying he was into vore-play, the commentariat would be less critical.

@9. OMG, you think kissing in front of your kid(s) is a public display of affection. It *is*, but it's the right kind that is love, and only sexual if you make it so by adding sexual touching. I think it's strange you don't want your children knowing you kiss your spouse. In Europe, a common greeting is the two kiss hello, the kisser and kissee swap side-of-face kisses. It's not sexual at all.

As for LW2, I'd really love to hear from the wife who is gone half of the month. She's *happy* about not being home all that time? She's *happy* about the non-sex in her home relationship, or she's counting down the years until she can shack up with one of the guys she sees on her long business trips in other cities. I have no proof that she's having sex outside your marriage; just the fact that I could never handle a drought that long and stay monogamous (read: celibate).

One thing I agree with LW2 about. The ways you spend your time *are* zero sum, and if you're going to spend four years in a sexless marriage, that's four years you could have been spending with a partner who wants sex with you.

And 14 year-olds can go to sleep away camp, become staff at sleep away camp, go to boarding school, go on club sport weekends, and generally be away from home for days at a time, learning independence.

@ 29 - One day, while criticizing something she does that they don't like, they'll be shouting "after all we didn't do for you!" at her.

nocutename @33, if he had three kids under six at home, I'd be understanding. But with one fourteen year old, it seems weird to say that she is the main reason they're not having sex.

More likely: they don't want sex.

That's fine, but then why say it's because of the kid? This line just really irritated me ("From our perspective, our kid is cooler than sex") because as Bama Librul wrote @27, it suggests that those of us who do still have quite a bit of sex are neglecting our children to do so.

I bet there are other activities the guy prioritizes higher than couple sex, but to talk about his video game habits or masturbation habits wouldn't make him sound so much like "the nicest guy in the world" (@21).

I do hope the two adults have had a serious conversation about their sex life, rather than just sweeping it under the carpet and hoping the other person is fine with the situation.

As a child of a mostly sexless marriage that eventually ended in divorce, I can tell you that you aren't doing your daughter any favors by spending all your time with her and not focusing on your relationship with your spouse. It sets ridiculously unrealistic expectations for your daughter about how a marriage should be and how adults who are in love with each other should act. Now as a kid/teen you want to tell yourself that your parents don't have sex (I mean EW!), or only had sex enough to have you and your siblings, but I never remember seeing my parents hug or kiss each other or say "I love you" and that's weird. Now that I have kids of my own I think it is crucial for them to see my husband and I be affectionate with each other and tell each other "I love you."

Putting your kids 100% above your relationship with your spouse is bad for you, bad for the kids, and deep down the kids know something is wrong. Maybe they're all happy, but the letter strikes me as a lie this man has told himself. There is literally no time for sex? What is their sex routine look like that they can't ever find enough time?

Jabber needs to re-balance his priorities a bit. That much focus on a kid is unhealthy for everyone.

I don't buy the "we simply don't have time for it" argument. As Chi Type said at #15 - a 14-year-old MUST have a social life that would sometimes take her out of the house. It doesn't have to cost anything for her to hang out with friends, so if in spite of all the traveling and weird work hours, they don't have the money for kid to go on a weekend camping trip, or something like that, sleeping over at a friend's house is still free. Shoot, my 9-year-old has a social life that sometimes takes her out of the house, and that is as it should be!

Granted, I don't get as much sex as I would like because I sometimes prioritize sleeping in, or doing laundry, or grocery shopping further afield than usual. Sometimes one or the other of us is sick, or exhausted. Sometimes my partner & I prioritize talking, or cuddling, or work-related stuff. Sometimes we prioritize taking the kids to do something fun. But we make sure to get some sexy times in, even if it means the kids have to put together their own breakfast and watch a movie on a weekend morning. And it's healthy, I think, for the kids to know that we need our private adult time. It sets up more realistic attitudes/understanding/expectations for their futures.

"We have big stressors that affect communication, positive feelings about intimacy, and so on. But we're working on it."

My guess: that's why they're not having sex. Someone doesn't have positive feelings about intimacy.

What @37 said. It's bad for the kid to present a model of marriage that is basically lacking in affection.

I have six children in total and at one point we had five children aged 7 and under. We definitely weren't banging boots as often as we would have liked but we still found time for each other. Sometimes it was ten really funny, really quick minutes with small people on the other side of the door, but I can't even begin to imagine going four years without. I also have to wonder about what weird relationship has formed between the child and her parents--I don't think any 14 year old wants to be at the absolute centre of her parents lives. I know my own children had pretty full lives of their own at that point. It seems like a lot of pressure to put on a child. I do have a friend who was a single dad for a long time and who confided in me that he hadn't had sex for nearly 10 years so I know that even people who like sex can manage without if they have to. I have less concern over their sexless marriage than I do with the fixation on devoting so much attention to the child.

So what happens when daughter comes home with a boyfriend. You planned that far ahead LW2?
She's fourteen now, the old hormones will be kicking in. She'll have fingers up her skirt in no time.
See. You won't have to wait another x many years at all. Once your daughter has moved
along, so to speak, you guys can too.

We don't know for sure, of course, but I see no reason to see it as delusional or over-compensating anymore than when people write in with other perspectives on their relationships. I think it's nice to hear another POV. Out and about in the real world, there are people for whom sex is really not a big deal. You'd never believe it from regularly reading SL, but for a lot of people, sex is like ice cream- nice when you have it, but not something that's high up on the life priority list. I have a very close relative who did not have sex from the time he was 25 until nearly 40, and while he would have liked to have sex if it were available in a relationship, he didn't want it badly enough to put out any effort towards finding it because he was just busy doing other things. Weird to me too, but when I'd ask him about it, he'd say something like "well sex would be nice, maybe I'll start dating again after I finish xyz" and nearly right before he turned 40 and had done all those things, he made a dating profile and a year later got married in a sexually active marriage. Go figure. That's an outlier, I know, but I suspect the spectrum in between is really broad. I bet there are plenty of people for whom a long drought is just really not THAT big a deal. I think it's hard for us to accept in US because sex is so in-your-face all the time, and no one really brags about not getting it or being not-so-interested.

There's got to me more than this than just deciding to "focus on your kid" and not have sex for a few years.
As EricaP says, at least one of them must have issues with intimacy. There's nothing about parenting a 14 year-that means there's no room left for a healthy sex life. We've got a 10 year-old and a 14 year-old and have always had plenty of sex. Sometimes rushed, sometimes maintenance sex, but that's part of life.
I can understand how, as EmmaLiz says, it's possible for someone to accept a lack of sex if they're not in a relationship and not be too bothered about it.
I can't understand how you can not have sex with your partner for years and expect to just flick a switch and start up again at some point in the future. How is anyone able to control their sexual desire for another person in that way? I couldn't anyway. I'm very doubtful that there's much desire happening if they can resist each other so easily.
And our kids are plenty used to us kissing and hugging in front of them. I think it's an incredibly healthy way to behave - I want them to see that we enjoy each other's company and affection.

@Emma and Dark horse I don't think anyone is villfying this guy, it's just I don't believe him. I don't believe he's okay with a sexless marriage, I don't believe the sex is going to magically come back once the kid hits 18 and I do think this relationships is going to explode when he realizes this.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he is happy. I don't know. But would someone who's truly happy write a multi-paragraph to a sex-advice columnist telling people how great their sexless life is?

I mean how many letters have we seen with this situation, only with the person at the breaking point?

@JABBER: "On the other hand, if your only (or primary) marriage goal is "sex three times a week," then your marriage might be fucked in the long run."

A diet that is nutritionally perfect with the single glaring exception of being completely lacking in Vitamin C will still result in swollen, bleeding gums, loose or lost teeth, easy bruising, slow healing, shortness of breath, spots on the skin, joint pain, edema, and eventually, death. All from the lack of this one thing. Even though absolutely everything else is perfect.

Intimacy, for the two of us at least, has always been a combination of being able to connect in a number of non-sexual ways before getting into fun naked stuff.

JABBER lists lots of things he does with his wife (even if the kid is there for most of them, too), like vacations, going to museums, reading, watching a favorite tv show, and attending their daughter's school events. To me, these are ways in which couples connect. He is spending time with his wife doing things they enjoy. Presumably they enjoy each others company (although I question that), and these activities could (should) serve to enforce a couple's bond.

Yet JABBER paints the picture as if these are only family activities, with no positive effect or reinforcement on his relationship with his wife.

I think his list of excuses is how he tells himself this is not really a companionate marriage. There's nothing wrong with that type of arrangement, but at least admit that's what it is. Putting off sex for eight years and saying it's because there simply is no time to 'connect' first is ridiculous. You cannot store your bonds and sex life in the freezer for that long, then expect to defrost it in 2020 and sit down to a delicious meal. By that time, I bet JABBER will then have a list of reasons he is postponing his divorce until the daughter is out of college.

Yes Zoo.
What I find a little queasy with this letter is the energy around the daughter. Fan was right, this is the age a young adolescent wants space, away from parents.

Like Ricardo, my first thought was maybe his wife is away for two weeks at a time so she can have sex, just not with him. But if they are truly happy together, then good for them.

OmarSanchezCat @ 21
Or maybe, “Let him be Jesus.”

@ 50 - And we'll do our best to be someone else. Who does have sex.

Emma @43: Good point. We who read SL do so because sex is important to us. (Except for Commentor, who reads SL to troll those people to whom sex is important.) It's not so important to everyone.
But I think there's a difference between not wanting sex badly enough to go out and pursue a relationship -- which is work -- and not wanting to roll over and fondle the person sharing your bed whom you supposedly love and desire. Does it really take them, I dunno, six hours to chat and cuddle before they get turned on enough for sex? Perhaps they're kinksters. Kinky sex can take hours.
I remain dubious about the "we'd like to have sex, but there is always something more important, every single hour of the week" claim. If sex isn't important to you, then fine; don't say "we'd like to be having sex, but we can't because of one reasonably independent child." They COULD do both if they wanted, easily.

@34. It might shock you to learn I have been out of the us and even to Europe. It might also shock you to know there have been studies done on the cultural differences in personal space and europe is not all consistent on what is considered appropriate physician contact. As I recollect (I was an athro-archaeo), studies showed that the British were pretty reserved on physical contact - more like the wasp (as versus other subcultures in the us). So no need to be patronizing. I never said I was the norm. However I am wired as I am. I am very much on the non demonstrative side. I become physically uncomfortable with people in my personal space.

My push back on this is as follows. I really think people here (except ironically Dan) seem absolutely incapable of fathoming someone who doesn't put sex on such a high priority. And it really annoys me because it's the kind of stuff that got fed to me. That I must be "damaging myself" and rationalizing being treated badly when I did a lot of sexual exploration a decade ago. I must really care if my husband slept with other women and I was lying to myself when we had a little std scare and I had to confront the possibility he cheated on me. After the flat shock wore off I said to my brother (my confidant), well if he has, I can understand a one night stand.... and really I was okay with it. I am not rationalizing but plenty of people would have said I was.

The truth is, the flip side to the "women aren't allowed to be sluts" is that men "aren't allowed to be anything but barely controlled sluts." Sure a million men write in over not getting enough sex, but why would any man who has reached a deal that works for him write in to say everything is hunky dory?

And as to the gentleman protesting to much? The person who is outside a socially sanctioned norm must always defend him or herself.

I agree there is reason to think there are some problematic issues in what lw 2 wrote, but I also don't know what lw is looking for post child. Sex yes but how much?

I didn't see the sanctimoniousness others did but I can understand it. None of us like others telling us what our priorities should be. I am sure if lw read the comments, he'd say the same thing. If he's happy with his deal, power on.

Man, do I love being unburdened by children. Merely hearing what parents o through makes me need to take a nap. Which I'm gonna do now. Cuz I can. Suckers.

It's not cute, it's not sweet, it's all contingent on the fantasy that everything changes and snaps back into place instead of trying now to reconnect sexually, something they're absolutely frightened to do.

The reality they're living in now is that they can and choose not to, not because of their daughter but because they don't feel like having sex with each other. That'd be great if that's what they wanted, but they want to change things.

They'd do better with a marriage counselor than they would another 4 years of fear-based celibacy. Busy can be worked around, if their daughter isn't allowed to go out on a sleepover or to the mall they're inflicting their illness on her, they can dvr Dancing With The Stars one night and watch it in the afterglow.

Human virtue is more than flagellating oneself for Christ (or in this case pretending they're not having sex in order to be better parents.)

This is a cargo cult of a healthy relationship, and the daughter shouldn't think this is normal... it was weird knowing my parents were sexual beings by accidenting in on one of their encounters and slamming the door shut, but knowing they just STOPPED and blamed it on me and lying that it was "for my good" would have damaged me far more in my later relationships and current marriage.

This is a sadbrag letter, they profess and confess and their life sounds as it is, not the reality they construct for themselves.

@53: If he was happy he wouldn't need to spend so much time talking about it, nor would he pretend beyond logic that either partner is interested in changing things.

They also need to not blame it on the daughter, which surfaces an unhealthy family.

@DarkHorse 53 and @EmmaLiz 43 and the others who suggest that sex isn't so important to those who don't read and comment on Savage Love that very well may be true. I would think those people wouldn't be reading Savage Love let alone writing in about their life. I think that's at least part of the reason people here think JABBER is a bit full of it.

@57: Right, it's not a success story, it's a story about how they're going to be sexual in four or five years, maybe. Why don't they check back then? So many of these "I'LL SHOW YOU, MISTER DAN SAVAGE" letters don't even make sense on the surface level.

Ricardo I love your comment "People who never have sex tend to adopt an attitude of moral superiority (see: the Catholic Church). Not because they are in fact morally superior, but because they feel so shitty inside for repressing their body's needs that they have to try and convince themselves it makes them better people.
I'd rather be a happy slut."

Like someone else said here. If the absence of sex in your marriage does not bother you why did you write Dan in so many details about it?

I think it would be cool to use creativity to extend the notion of sex for Instance: giving each other full body massages or a feet massage and oral sex or 'molestation' in the form of role playing power exchange bdsm type of 'abuse' or fun sexual 'punishments' from the 'boss' 'the prof' etc... I think if there is genuine passionate sexual desire within a couple the options are endless. I could can come up with 1000 ways of giving and receive sexual affection and attention that would go beyond penetration making my partner feel cared for. I think it is essential to couple with someone who turns you on life fire otherwise the dead bed it is a sad permanent state of affairs.

How will your daughter learn to express affection when she does not have the example from her parents? No wonder some folks are cold detached terrified of emotional intimacy.