has asking a woman if it's OK to kiss her ever worked for any guy who didn't already know it was in the bag?

I imagine it's not going to convince a woman who didn't want to kiss the

...argh, interface cut the first message off. What I wanted to say: "I imagine it's not going to convince a woman who didn't want to kiss the guy to go for it instead. If she didn't want to and you just go for it without knowing, you might get a quick bit of kissing because she feels too awkward to stop you immediately. But I wouldn't call that a win."

Knowing you have it in the bag is based on the kind of cultural familiarity and experience this guy doesn't have. It's built over a lifetime, which is why it feels "natural." To you, it is natural! Until he learns to read more of the (cultural, feminine) signals, he should ask.

I think the point of asking is to avoid the 'social embarrassment' of accidentally sexually assaulting someone who wasn't anticipating having someone stick a tongue down their throat without warning, not advice about about a way to get a snog 'in the bag'.

In a sex positive community asking first is the norm.

In my limited experience (I'm middle-aged, but new to dating), some type of verbal communication before the initial leaning in is required (stealing a kiss is generally not appreciated). In order not to seem too tentative/passive, how about making a statement such as "I really want to kiss you" before you start leaning in? Announces intent in plenty of time for her to let you know (usually non-verbally) that she'll welcome it (and verbally and/or non-verbally if it's not the right time).

A 25 yr old virgin would be a prize for many women. Just go to some bars and clubs and start talking to girls. Your charm will be in your inexperience, showing you're not a player.
You might get some rejections, that will only help you improve your approach.

4 - agreed. Some people are less capable of intuiting when a kiss is unwelcome and that may be due to any number of factors - inexperience and cultural differences would be two of them so it's best to err on the side of caution.

Another strategy is to lean in as if to kiss her but wait for her to close the last few inches. Of course if she doesn't close the gap then you're just going to have to pretend you were going to whisper something funny in her ear. It'll be awkward but much less awkward than an unwelcome kiss.

LW - I want to echo Dan's advice to recognize that she doesn't owe you anything other than respect and basic decency (and vice versa). There's no exchange of goods for services in a relationship. She doesn't owe you replies to your texts. She doesn't owe you a hug at the end of the date. (Although if her communication style is vastly different than yours then feel free to break things off. She doesn't owe you but that also indicates you two probably don't suit.)

Don't get disheartened by some bad dates, particularly if you meet people online since it's difficult to judge chemistry until you meet in person even if you felt you hit it off. Get a trusted friend to review your profile (and pictures) and honestly evaluate whether they're depicting you in both a truthful and a flattering light. I would wait to mention your virginity until you've had a few dates and reached the point where you're making out a little. Anyone who reacts poorly isn't a person you want to be intimate anyway. Good luck!

If you don't have much experience interacting with women generally, I'd also say you should take opportunities to do so, without any expectation of sex/kissing/dates. This can be anything from meeting coworkers in a group for drinks to volunteering - just interact with women in a context where you aren't hoping for anything date-or-sex related. It will help you immensely.

"A 25 yr old virgin would be a prize for many women."

These are not women you should have sex with.

@10 Excellent advice.

While you can technically meet girls anywhere, NAIVE, the kind of first contacts that lead to dates (and sometimes sex) tend to happen on apps.

Now I really feel old.

Don't wear too much cologne or only compliment women on their looks. Try telling her she's clever or funny. First dates tend to feel like job interviews so try to remember it's a date and have fun. For 2nd dates try doing something together rather than just getting coffee. Activities are great bonding experiences and tend to leave a bigger impact than conversations alone.

Oh Sophie. @11. I don't mean it in an objectifying way. Some women would appreciate a man who has no preconceived moves and no sti's. As long as they are clean as well.

Apps? Dan, do you have any idea how difficult it is for straight men on dating apps? If NAIVE wants to send 100 messages and get 10 rejections and 90 no-responses, thus proving himself undesirable, apps are the way to go. Apps are NOT the way forward for someone who already doubts his worth. No, I'd join Meetup groups or go to bars and clubs and other places where young single people gather. In person, women may find NAIVE's accent sexy, and lots of women do like inexperienced guys (I'd go with describing myself as "inexperienced" rather than "a virgin").

Sportlandia @1: How is a 25-year-old with no dating experience supposed to know whether a kiss is "in the bag"? Even experienced dudes misread signals at alarming rates, hence the high incidence of date rape. Asking is sweet. NAIVE is in no way gonna convince women he's a Casanova, so he may as well charm them with his innocence. He could also "ask" nonverbally, by first holding her hand, leaning his body against hers to see if she leans into his, stroking her cheek or hair. If he does these things and she likes him, chances are she'll kiss him.

Another good bit of advice is, don't take rejection personally. In society, the usual pattern is still that men do the pursuing, and women are therefore pursued by far more men than they want. If she rejects you, that doesn't mean there's something wrong with you; it means there's something wrong with society. Approaching women unsuccessfully is still good practice -- both for making the approach, and for learning to graciously accept no for an answer.

Sophie @11: Sounds a bit like not wanting to join any club that would have you as a member.

Honeybunny @14: "Don't ... only compliment women on their looks. Try telling her she's clever or funny."

If you've only just met and have no idea whether she is clever or funny, compliment her outfit rather than her body. "Nice skirt" = good (only if you actually DO like the skirt; we can tell when a compliment isn't genuine). "Nice tits" = bad.

@16

Your exchange with Dan actually brings up another point.

An interesting paradox about dating as a straight man is that you are both right.

As a society we have collectively agreed that in most spaces it is inappropriate for a man to approach a woman in a flirty or, basically any, way.

Because vastly more men use apps than women, the rejection rate is staggering.

This can make dating very challenging for straight men.

My advice is to either go to a venue where you are the relative top of the dating pool or improve yourself so that this is no longer a problem no matter where you find yourself.

GhostDog @18: It's not just "because vastly more men use apps than women." It's also because such a huge number of men are horrible online. The behaviour of a sizable minority puts women off responding to those well-meaning men whom she might very well get on with, because she has no way of knowing who will graciously accept a polite "no" and who will turn around and call her every epithet under the sun. It's less risky to simply not reply.

That said, Dan's given examples of apps I haven't used, and perhaps he suggested those apps for a reason. Tinder won't allow contact unless the recipient has swiped you the right way, and Bumble apparently only allows women to make the initial contact. So maybe Bumble's the way forward for NAIVE -- after all, women who like making the first move are more likely to dig an inexperienced young man like him. So I suppose putting up a profile can't hurt.

I’d probably forgo the bar scene. Considering his strict upbringing I suspect LW may not have much alcohol experience if any at all. Drinking to avoid shyness may result in stupid acts.

Lava @ 8,15
BDF @ 16
Who are the women who will be attracted to his inexperience?

Sophiex @ 11
Who are the women he shouldn’t have sex with?

BDF @ 16 revisited
Accent- he should say it’s French, extremely likely to increase his chances with American women.
Also casually mention he worked as a fireman in his home country.

@1 It's not about "working", it's about making sure everyone's on board before leaning in for a snog.

This makes me have so much sympathy for all of the mostly brown skinned men who ring the edges of dance floors in San Francisco, staring a little too much at all the mostly white and East Asian girls on the dance floor. (I still don't want to talk to the guys, but I really sympathize.)

I'm assuming this guy has brown skin, which may require a different approach to picking girls up, particularly if he's looking to date ladies who don't have brown skin.

My advice: get a really good haircut and nice clothes. Go out with a group of fun people who are of a variety of races and has mixed men and women. Don't try very hard to pick people up. Just have fun with them, and practice being flirty with people you have no intention of dating. Flirt with old ladies on the bus (not sexually, just fun). They'll love it, and you'll get better at it.

CMD @20: Dominant women. Older, naughty women. Women who are sick of guys who come on too strong. Also, women who are similarly inexperienced. Not sure whether that answers both of your questions!

I think a variety of accents can be enticing to American women. English, Iberian, Australian, East European, South American, Russian, pretty much anything exotic yet still decipherable.

Good point about going easy on the Dutch courage -- if not the Dutch accent. :) Also worth noting that if he has a heavy accent, making conversation in loud clubs may be difficult.

Tabletop @21: Perfect response, thank you.

I used to travel frequently to Europe and parts of Central and South America for business. I was constantly amazed at how many hetero men in these countries thought that American women, as a rule, are sex-starved and therefore much easier to seduce than women in their own culture. NAIVE, this is a total MYTH and you should never, ever assume that a woman is sexually interested in you, just because she is friendly and open. Similarly, women in the US may dress and dance more suggestively than in your home country, and many lace their conversation with sexual profanity. Many foreign-born hetero men misinterpret attractive clothing, dirty language, and sexy dance moves as signals that a woman is "easy" and ready for a fun sexual romp. Not so! I strongly second (third...?) VP @10's good advice to get involved in activities that will bring you into contact with both men and women in non-sexual ways, so you can learn first-hand how men and women normally interact in American society, which I imagine is much more relaxed, integrated, and egalitarian than your birth culture. Once you are able to chat comfortably with a woman on a platonic friendship level, with absolutely no expectation that it will turn into a sexual relationship (even if it has that potential in the back of your mind), you will be ready for the dating world. In my opinion, a 26-yo virgin who is charming, considerate, and open regarding his own sexual inexperience will attract far more positive attention than a 25-yo virgin who is clueless and acts desperate to get laid.

BDF @ 23
I think Lava, and probably also your initial response to the question, viewed potential dates as “women who are sick of guys who come on too strong, [and] women who are similarly inexperienced.”
It is possible that the first two groups you mentioned, “dominant women, older naughty women” are the women Sophiex warned us about.

If I was a virgin immigrant I suspect I would have felt easier with an equally inexperienced local woman. A more experienced one will have to be very patient and assuring.
As for the dominant and older naughty types, I never noticed women prying on young and inexperienced, let alone immigrants, in a bar or a club.

Accent- Your attempt to portray a wide variety of accents as universally appealing seems suspiciously rosy. Some accents may not be rejected right away, chief among them are French, British, and Australian.
As many male immigrants will tell you Russian, Hindu, Hispanic, any middle eastern and many other accents are not likely to advance your chances of getting laid with US women. And if dark skin and hairy body are involved you will almost automatically be viewed as hard-wired misogynist who thinks US women are easy just like on those TV shows who will leave me anyway as soon as gets his green card.
(I wrote that before Capri posted their post)

beccoid @ 22 touched on the subject, and while she tried to give some useful advice, the “I still don't want to talk to the guys, but I really sympathize” is a good representation of this attitude.
I also think her advice to inexperienced dark skinned, hairy dudes with an accent to practice their flirting techniques on older women on the bus, sexually or not, may result in them being summoned to an FBI investigation.

It's a strange irony that if you're looking for a sexual relationship, your best bet is to make it look, at least at first, like you're looking for a not-necessarily-sexual relationship. Luckily, NAIVE, you say you're looking for both a personal AND a sexual relationship. Excellent. In some ways that's harder since it means you're not just looking to hire a prostitute, but in most other ways it's easier since it's likely what the women you meet are looking for too.

I take issue with Dan's advice on dating aps. I recommend starting with interest groups. Join something you like whether that's a class, a sport, a hobby, a volunteer group, a political organization. Anything that gets you out meeting people. Dance lessons are excellent. Make friends with anyone who seems receptive including young women your own age but also anyone else too. As you get to know your new friends, mention that you'd like to meet someone to date. Older people will know younger relatives they can introduce you to. Women who aren't particularly interested in you might introduce you to their friends.

Also, there can be some confusion as to what's meant by "sex" in that for some, it means strictly penis-in-vagina sex (abbreviated to PIV), and for others, it's any turn-on including kissing or what we used to call necking which is above the waist sexual contact, hugging and kissing breasts. The advice here is to go slow. Get to know the woman you're dating by talking about the things Dan mentions like ambitions, ideas, interests. After a while, move to kiss her. A good time for this is when you're dropping her off for the evening after a date. When saying good-night, say "may I kiss you". It's possible that you won't need to ask, but even if it's unnecessary, it will seem charming. If, at that point, she asks you in, you can be reasonably certain that she's okay with more sexual contact, but again, go slow and be willing to back off or clarify what she wants if you're even a little bit unsure.

If you're sure you're going for PIV sex, another charming habit it to have condoms and just put one on without complaint or discussion any more than "I'm putting on a condom". This is expected and normal. Even if she says she's using another form of birth control, just say "I prefer this" even if you have no idea what you prefer because you're so inexperienced.

LW: welcome to the US of A! Just a couple of dating basics, though...
1) Yes means yes.
2) Maybe does NOT mean yes.
3) No means, emphatically, NO! AND respect the "no."
4) And, here's the sometimes frustrating part of dating/intimacy: people have the right to change their minds, frequently do and during the act itself, and we must respect that right!
5) If a person has had any alcohol/drugs at all, it is safer to assume that their judgement and, therefore, ability to give consent to intimacy is impaired than to assume that their "yes" implies informed consent.
6) don't assume that a person is of legal age just because they tell you they are. Know the laws of legal age of consent in the states in which you live and/or socialize. Remember that just because you are in state "A," the person with whom you make app/online arrangements to meet might be in a different state with different laws RE: age of consent.
7) buy condoms AND use them! (Practice putting them on, too before you have the opportunity to use them with a partner.)

This all might seem a bit frustrating but as they say, it's better to be safe than sorry. Good luck and happy dating!

Oh and what @26 said.

BIg Hug Mug @9, Thank you. Asking with words can be terribly unsexy. What you said is a way of asking indirectly through body language, but makes any kissing purely consensual:

"Another strategy is to lean in as if to kiss her but wait for her to close the last few inches. Of course if she doesn't close the gap then you're just going to have to pretend you were going to whisper something funny in her ear. It'll be awkward but much less awkward than an unwelcome kiss."

Plenty of women would be put off by a man asking permission to do every little thing. If you move in close and make the intent obvious, without actually doing anything she hasn't agreed to (by closing the last inch or whatever), she can remember you as being the aggressor/instigator, even if she's technically the one that established the contact.

LOVE the comments about interacting in low pressure mixed gender groups to better understand the male/female dynamic. Also, remember to cultivate male friends - they can help, and will introduce you around.

@10 has good advice. Don't bother with apps or bars until you've made some platonic female friends so you can get comfortable interacting with American women in a low or zero expectations context. They can also give you dating advice and introduce you to friends of theirs when you're ready, and vouch for you once you've shown yourself to be trustworthy and considerate. Going straight for the girlfriend before building yourself a support network is a good way to crash and burn (or end up in an unhealthy relationship).

I'm surprised that neither Dan nor any of the commenters so far have addressed the possibility that NAIVE has any factual (rather than porn or gossip driven) knowledge about sex, especially considering the strict sex segregation in his country. If he figures all he needs to know is "Put tab A into slot B to achieve your own orgasm", he may divest himself of his virginity but not get any further. In the same vein, how much experience does he have masturbating? Does he know his own body's reactions and turn-ons? If not, then he should find out before approaching a woman. When masturbating, he should use a condom occasionally so he becomes accustomed to the feel of it (also let the unrolled condom warm up before sliding it on). He should read up on women's sexual responses from recognized sex educators so that - despite his inexperience - he can be a more involved participant in the activity.

As he's admitted he's a bit of an introvert, the bar scene would most likely be overwhelming and intimidating for him. I'd suggest he find a hobby he's good at (that's also something that appeals to both men and women) and meet women that way. Naturally, good hygiene and grooming are a must.

Jeez Dan, stop insulting Julius Caesar. Only Asterix and Obelix are allowed to do that, and I think even they'd balk at comparing him to Trump.

Given that you have so little experience interacting with women, I think it would be a great idea for you to get experience interacting with women when sex is NOT on the table. Take a class or join a club about a topic that interests you, and talk to the women in the class or club just as PEOPLE.

Once you have more experience interacting with women, once you see them as fellow human beings and not as something strange or mysterious, the whole dating thing will go a LOT better. Plus you might make some friends along the way, and who can't use a friend?

Take a class in a useful skill -- like cooking -- or in a sport you're interested in -- like tennis, or in a hobby that calls to you -- like drawing or pottery or music. Not only will you learn something that's either fun or useful -- possibly both -- but you'll have something to talk about on your dates.

Every club I've ever been involved with has needed more people to do the actual work of the club and not just attend events. Volunteer to set up chairs or serve food or do whatever it is that your club does, and not only will you get to know the other active, involved people who also volunteer, you'll develop a reputation as a good and useful person. Plus, it will give you more things to talk about on dates.

Take enough classes and join enough clubs, and you may not need a dating app at all, because you may be meeting lots of people who like what you like and who've gotten to know you in a more natural way. (I'm not dissing dating apps; it's just that no one I know really enjoys meeting people through them, whereas everyone I know has enjoyed meeting like-minded people in classes and clubs.)

NAIVE, I would recommend that you take classes in things that interest you. First, people who are active and engaged are more I interesting and therefore make for more interesting and attractive partners. Second, it will give you something to talk about with the women who you meet. Third, it is a great way to meet women in a low key, nonsexual environment, where you can be yourself. You can get lots of practice interacting with women in a nondating scenario. And in the event you meet someone who you think you might like to ask out, you know you already share a common interest. Also that first after class date could be coffee after class, and not drinks, which might ease the pressure of that first encounter.

More advice-- You may think that the guys who grew up in the U.S. and who had their first sexual experiences at age 15 are now suave folks who know everything and never have an awkward moment. Hah! That's not the case. While it does get easier, it's not the sort of thing that's ever absolutely easy. You have to approach it with tenderness and a sense of humor.

Dan once did a column on virginity stories. It might help to read that to give you some idea of how awkward first-time experiences can be.

In this comments section, we might share some of the things that those of us who grew up in North America didn't know our first time. We might also share things that happened even after we supposedly knew our way around.

In my case (I'm a straight woman in my early 60s), I was surprised that a hand is needed to guide an erect penis into a ready vagina. Somehow I had the idea that connection was just made automatically. I've had plenty of awkward moments with position. I find that comments are often needed along the lines of "You on top?" and "Is this okay?" even while in the middle of having sex. You can't really know if the amount of pressure you're using or the speed you're going is okay any other way. That doesn't mean you have to keep checking after you've gotten an enthusiastic yes, but asking and answering a few questions along those lines is fine.

There's a dive bar in Milwaukie. Go there, there will be three age appropriate women there. Chat them up. They will be charmed by your accent, and ask you to say American words, and they will giggle when you say them. At the end of the night, they will invite you to stay in their tiny apartment, which is very cold, and they are too poor to afford pajamas and would that be too much trouble for you? And oh yes, there's a fourth roommate, who is the "hot" one.

Ok, NEVER ask a woman if it's OK to kiss her. That will never make a woman want to kiss you if she didn't, and it will make a good portion of women who would kiss you not want to.

Also NEVER just kiss a woman. So how do you meet both conditions?

Whatever distance is between you and the woman, close 80 percent of the distance and point your lips at hers. Either she'll complete the kiss or she won't, and you'll know.

Some more...
Join a co-ed recreational community/work place soccer team. Not only you'll meet more people than on the tennis court, it is also likely that your team mates, men and women alike, have already been around immigrants and may have some knowledge and interest in the international aspect of the sport which can help start conversations.
Pass to women players as you would to men, it will be noticed. Be generally nice to others, including the opposite team, and avoid arguing with the referee.

Many teams hang around after the games in a near by restaurant or bar. That often means drinking beer and eating meat like pork or beef that some religions avoid. It is ok to order something else or none at all and still join the conversation.

CMD @39, if SL had a "LIKE" button I would have pushed it for this post! Adult co-ed recreational soccer has never led to a romantic hookup for me, but it has proved to be a convenient and fun way to develop an instant community of friends whenever my spouse and I have moved to new cities. (Not to mention, an excellent way for us "weekend warriors" to stay active and fit.) And yes, most teams have a distinctly internationalist vibe - not to mention, the star players are NOT those of us who grew up playing soccer in the US. This is a brilliant tip that will allow NAIVE to meet and interact with women in a casual, friendly-competitive, no-strings-attached way - not to mention, the after-game parties and soccer-team friendships will let NAIVE gradually scope out the bar scene, knowing that he has a crowd of sympathetic wing-men (and wing-women!) to aid and abet.

NAIVE-- Also note that 25 is not considered terribly old to have no sexual experience even in North America. There are many men and women who grew up here who were busy with college and just didn't date much or at all. There are certainly some who started younger, but there are many who are getting started at your age too. Your inexperience won't necessarily stand out that much.

@39: Good suggestion and a good point about the fact that the food ordered or served may be foreign, off-putting, or offensive, but that NAIVE doesn't need to eat it to socialize.

I have had great luck with variations on, "How would it go for me if I asked to kiss you?" in my best charming and flirtatious manner.

LW-
Despite the liberal pretence Piano Tuna @ 43 is one of those very welcoming and very thoughtful Americans who wants you to know that we are the best, always were and always will be, Christian fanaticism of some sort is our only accepted religion, and all of you dark skin hairy men from elsewhere are nothing but a bunch of backward primitives who come here with the sole intention of raping our innocent virgin white sisters and daughters.

This person may be a future in law of some sort. Things may shift once you coach their child’s soccer team to the district championship.

Really, Piano Tuna, assume much? NAIVE was savvy enough to find and write to Dan, and respectfully ask his advice. Your ugly assumptions have no place here.

I disagree with this advice from @26: "It's a strange irony that if you're looking for a sexual relationship, your best bet is to make it look, at least at first, like you're looking for a not-necessarily-sexual relationship. "

There's a big difference between "you have to be willing to treat somebody as a person even though the only thing you want is to get into her pants" and "you have to make it look like you you are looking for a not-necessarily-sexual relationship."

NAIVE, if you're still reading, read this:

http://www.theferrett.com/ferrettworks/2…

And in particular this comment:

"You can claim all you like that “it’s not about fucking.” But realistically, what you want is to talk, and get to know her, and go on a few dates, and make it a very intimate relationship...and then fuck.

And if fucking’s not a part of it, chances are extremely good that you’re going to feel like she’s wasted your time. Which makes you a liar. It’s like you’re saying, “Oh, no, going out to a restaurant’s not about the eating! It’s about the atmosphere, the good conversation, the experience.” But if you got the bill and went home hungry, you’d be ripped off.
The point is that yes, maybe fucking isn’t your primary intention, but it’s certainly well in the mix. And they know that. And you going up to them and dancing around your boner, going, “No, this is about getting to know each other! It’s about conversation!” is the kind of sad tactic that makes women not trust you. Because yeah. You want other stuff, but all that is stuff you could get elsewhere. You could have many fine friends who you don’t fuck. Instead, you’re lying about the friendship, and what you really want is the sex."

Something else, NAIVE, is...cultural differences in dating do matter.

It's not just, don't assume that western women wearing sexy clothes are down to fuck no matter what, or that a move you make trying to get their attention might feel massively awkward and weird to them.

It also means that they don't know how to read YOUR cultural signals, either. They might miss them, they might notice that you're doing something and figure it's important but don't know what it means, or they might misinterpret them completely.

Since you're the immigrant to the dominant culture, you're stuck in a bit of a bind: it's on you to figure out how to work in your new society, but there isn't an instruction manual of any kind and you are having to learn as an adult things most people around you learned as small children. You have to learn to use the phone again, and you might have different road signs to deal with, and if you came from a country using the metric system to the US now you are using a totally different system of measurements.

Dating is no different. If your first language is not English, then you have another layer of difficulty piled on there.

So, if it helps, remind yourself from time to time that you're playing this game in Hard Mode.

1. First and foremost, do some self-examination on your own beliefs. If you grew up somewhere where dating, much less premarital sex, is seen as something only "bad girls" or hopelessly naive girls do, you're going to have to address those preconceptions. Don't date unless you can do it without looking down on any women who's willing to date you, simply because she's willing to date you. Women notice things like that and it's a turn-off.

2. Yes, condoms are a must.

3. Soap is always better than cologne. Always remember to wash with soap before going out, use deodorant or anti-antiperspirant, and use cologne sparingly.

I'm a 30 year old woman and I love and have always loved it when guys ask to kiss me. It makes me feel desired, and it makes me feel safe. If I know someone is going to ask before they do something, I'm WAY more likely to go home with him. Asking is a good way of quickly letting her know that her consent matters to you. My current partner still asks me sometimes, and it's hot as hell because it works as foreplay. ('Can I kiss you....here?' 'Oh my god yes')

You might also want to hire a prostitute, in order to get some sexual experience where the negotiating process is a lot less stressful, and the expectations are made absolutely clear.
It also might help looking for a relationship if you aren't blindingly horny.

Always look for those who state that your payment (or "donation") is for their time only, and they anything that may occur is between consenting adults, and who caution against law enforcement entrapment.
It is technically illegal in a lot of jurisdictions, though, so always be careful.

eros-(your city).com is a good place to start. I am not affiliated in any way with this site, or any of its connections.

And, of course, treat these women with utmost respect, and tip heavily.

When I was in grad school (lots and lots of immigrants and expats), I was into salsa dancing and tango. Easily 2/3 of the men were brown skinned expats. Partner dancing is a nice way to get to know and get used to touching women -- without the creep factor & without the pressure for it to be anything but dancing. And there will be lots of other non-native-US people there too, which could be nice.

Go find a partner dancing class at a university!

Fichu @26: "I'm putting on a condom"

With apologies to Biggie, I'd suggest phrasing this in the form of a question. Ask her if she is ready for you to put on a condom. "Shall I get a condom?" Don't just announce that in your unilateral opinion, it is PIV time.

Piano @43: Gee, I'm not at all surprised that you're the only xenophobe who's stereotyping every man from every country that isn't America. It's attitudes like yours that belong on the trash heap of history.

Seconding the recommendations for a dance course and for not misreading the body language of sexually liberated and/or merely outgoing American women for signals that "I want to sleep with YOU."

Bells @50: Right on. Biggie is, sadly, right that some women will be put off by guys asking for a kiss. If NAIVE wants a doormat who's attracted to abusive Neanderthals, he should follow Biggie's advice. If he wants an equal, he should ignore it.

CMD @25: I suspect that "older" and "dominant" are indeed the "women SophieX thinks young men should not sleep with," which I find personally a bit offensive. If NAIVE is looking for a fling then an older, unattached-and not-wanting-to-get-attached, experienced woman is absolutely whom he should be sleeping with. Dominant, perhaps not depending on his own fantasies, but someone who knows what she is doing and is happy to take the lead, I can't see any downsides to. (Yes, I am biased.)

I wonder if NAIVE is from India? India is full of young men like this and a lot of them come here with similar feelings. In my experience, (perhaps over-reaching since we don't know where he is from), the bigger problem is being shy and not being willing to join hobbies or sports or outdoor activities and other things outside of work. It's not a problem with treatment of or expectations of women, just lack of opportunity. But regardless of where he's from, there is no indication that he has any of the problems with women that some people here are assuming he might have. He is obviously thoughtful and educated so I don't think we have to worry about things like him running around with a lot of hangups from a culture that thinks women are second class citizens. Let's note that while he wants to get laid (most of us do!) he is not overly focused on that. He is asking how to meet and interact with women. He's not asking how to get them in the sack. The fact that he's already considering how to integrate into society rather than just how to get laid is a really good sign that if he had the opportunity to meet people, then he'll be able to make friends, and some of those friendships will naturally lead to dating eventually unless there is something else awkward or off-putting about him, and he did not mention that. The best thing he can do is to not try to claim more experience than he has. I think Dan gave great advice, and I agree with everyone here that he'll have more luck going out and meeting people socially than with apps. Like @34 said. Very good advice. What I was going to add.

The only other thing I'd add is that if he is from a culture that has a big diaspora here in the US (anywhere from the subcontinent for example) then it might help to connect with peers from that group. You have to be careful here because some of those groups are insulated and actually prevent integration by providing a comfort zone. But my experience is that if you join a mixed-gender social group then they are more open and ready to integrate and also you can meet girls within that subculture, and this leads often to meeting people outside it. It would be helpful to know where you are from.

Again, yes get involved in stuff. This is the best way to meet people. There are also culture-specific apps, though depending where you are from, that could be a slippery slope if you are wanting to date since a lot of those are more matrimonial than dating, ha ha.

@18

“As a society we have collectively agreed that in most spaces it is inappropriate for a man to approach a woman in a flirty or, basically any, way.”

This is bullshit. I’ve said this before, but I think it’s worth saying again. There is a spectrum of what “public” means, and the more random and cold the approach, the more likely you are to be rejected or perhaps even annoying. For example, if you approach a woman while she is clearly engaged in some non-social, non-recreational activity (riding the bus, reading at a cafe, while she is your waitress, shopping for groceries) you are very likely to be in the annoying category and even more likely to be rejected, no matter how polite you are. Nonetheless, you might have success too, who knows- everyone is different and some people might be flattered. Be respectful and assess your own ability to handle the possibility for “staggering rejection”.

On the other hand, if you approach a woman in a social or recreational public activity (at the beach, at a bar/club, at a party, through mutual friends, at an activity in which you are both participating in a hobby or sports or art or activist activity, at a concert, while doing volunteer work, at a neighborhood market day, at the dog park, etc) then this is normal, even expected, social interaction. It’s called CONVERSATION and it sometimes naturally leads to exchange of phone numbers or the maknig or future plans or a mutual decision to grab a beer or a coffee or share a cab immediately afterwards.

So, yes there is an entire world between chatting someone up on a work commute and meeting someone at a concert- you do not have to resort only to apps and staggering rejection. (Though there is nothing wrong with apps.) Don’t you interact with many people outside work and bus rides etc? If not, then I’d be worried less about staggering rejection online and more about your complete absence of normal social activities. Get a hobby. Join a club. Take up a sport. Volunteer with a cause. Get into your local music scene. Go to trivia night at the pub.

Which is what I think the last part of your post was getting at regarding venues- just you don’t have to be “top of the dating pool” as if there is some objective thing.

@47: You disagree with @26's suggestion "to make it look, at least at first, like you're looking for a not-necessarily-sexual relationship" because if sex doesn't happen, "chances are extremely good that you’re going to feel like she’s wasted your time. Which makes you a liar." I don't think anyone's saying that a man looking to get laid should pretend he's not romantically interested in a woman he'd like to sleep with, just that going in all "you're hot! let's fuck! seriously, how soon can we fuck?" is, for many women, a big turn off.

Not so long ago, I was newly single and looking

oops ... accidentally posted too quickly there.

Not so long ago, I (a woman) was newly single and looking for action, and even though I wanted sex and not a relationship, I learned very quickly to avoid dudes (online and in person) who alluded to sex straight off the bat. Because those men are boring as hell; all they want to talk about are their boners. (Turns out few things make a straight dude more single-minded than the thought that he might get laid soon.)

There's nothing wrong with wanting sex, but if you lead with that, most women will vamoose. Not necessarily because they don't want to have sex with you (although that, of course, is a real possibility), but because they want to get to know you a bit before the two of you start exchanging bodily fluids. Because they may want to have sex, but they don't feel safe taking their clothes off until they've spent enough time with you to trust you. Because they may want to have sex, but when you're more interested in their tits than the words coming out of their mouth, it makes them feel a bit less than human. Because they may want to have sex, but they don't want to fuck a stranger. Because they may want to have sex, but they also find flirting and joking and friendly teasing as much of a turn-on as the physical stuff.

Instead, men of the world who wish to get laid, consider treating the women you'd like to have sex with as, you know, humans. Not trophies to be stalked, not delicate jewels to be coddled, but people. People who -- as all people do -- have their own unique quirks and preferences and strengths and flaws. People who deserve honestly and kindness not because this kind of treatment is more likely to yield to a roll in the hay, but because everyone deserves to be treated well.

BDF @ 55
Now don’t get me wrong, I’m all with you in regards to older women educating new comers. Intended. Rest assured, my appreciation to you keeps growing up. Intended again.
I think the idea of older people helping youngsters coming of age is a wonderful one. While a teenager I read about this tribe in Africa where older women are guiding young men as part of their growing up process. There were also some US-made movies in the 1970’s that gave me hope.
There were also some lovely ladies where I grew up that could have quite easily, if they really wanted to, become terrific candidates for sainthood. Unfortunately the candidates weren’t that enthusiastic and I was referred to a teen psychologist. My ever-on-the-watch 16 yo managed to fool him and divert the subject.

The theme/fantasy of guiding/playing with an inexperienced younger man is something I’ve heard from other women, yet all were reluctant to act on it.
Now lets get practical. LW read all this and is now extremely eager to get his sex ed 101 with an experienced lady. He’s masturbating with a condom on as we speak.
Where can he find like-minded partners, and what should be his approach to bond with saints like you?

In addition to the suggestion to seek out social groups formed around interests (e.g., meetups) and try to meet women in a non-romantic sphere (which I heartily agree with), it may also be helpful to try to befriend men who are from the U.S. or other countries and get a wide variety of perspectives on suggested dating practices. I'm in the Bay Area, and noticed after going on several dates with men from the same country working at tech companies that there seem to be strong similarities in certain bad (and some good) dating habits that don't seem to be either from the U.S. or their home country, but that I'm guessing have spread because a couple of guys thought they were good strategies and word spread that this is how dating is done. Just because everyone in your community is saying this is the way it's done, doesn't mean they're necessarily correct.

For example, there seems to be a habit of sending long yet generic messages to dozens of women. There are plenty of men who cut and paste messages and send them out, like "sup?" and that is extremely annoying, but I find these messages to be even worse in a way because they look at first like they are thoughtful and then turn out to be just long-winded cut and pastes. There are also habits that seem to be propagated. Granted, there are plenty of terrible dating habits that are shared among American-born men, but this is all the more reason to talk to men and women from different cultures who don't necessarily all know each other, and to especially value the advice that turns up again and again, and advice from people who seem to be happy in their romantic lives.

Finally, I highly recommend Aziz Ansari's book "Modern Romance" which is funny and thoughtful, and gives actually useful advice for navigating dating in the age of the app.

Emma @57: Your post hasn't contradicted @18's. Your second paragraph, beginning "On the other hand, if you approach a woman in a social or recreational public activity..." is, in fact, the exception to the general rule that it's not acceptable for men to approach women in public settings, which you seem to agree with in your first paragraph. If women are doing their own thing in a non-social setting, then yes, it is in fact best to assume they don't want random men starting conversations with them. This may of course vary across cultures and depends highly on the flirtation content of the interaction ("Beautiful day, isn't it?" is far more acceptable than "May I have your number?").

(The "top of the dating pool" comment skeeved me out as well. Ugh to the concept of alpha.)

@62 Except he said in most spaces it is inappropriate - which it clearly isn't - and that any approach at all (flirty or otherwise) is inappropriate- which it clearly isn't- and that we, as a society, have collectively agreed upon this - which we clearly haven't- leading men with no other option than to face staggering rejection online - when they clearly have other options. Couple that with the skeevy "top of the dating pool" comment (yup, alpha reference, dating as competition that women control while men face the great burden of rejection/initiation) and you know exactly the point of view that he is speaking from. We should call out this sort of bullshit when we hear it and also give better advice, especially in forums that include young men who are having trouble meeting women.

Unless you spend most of your time in public running errands and commuting, then it absolutely is not a general rule that most time you shouldn't approach people. And if you do spend most of your time in public doing non social and non recreational and non community sorts of things, then I suggest your complete lack of normal levels of social and community interests are why you have trouble dating (or your lack of work-life balance or whatever) and this is why you think you need to approach people who are waiting for a bus.

Also acknowledging that your likelihood to be rejected or to cause annoyance increases with the coldness/randomness of the approach does not mean that we collectively agree that it's unacceptable to do so. Just that if you are concerned about "staggering rejection" then this might not be the best approach for you. We have collectively agreed that harassment is unacceptable, which is different, and yes might depend on culture (even within the US) as you point out. Even more reason why every word of that sentence was bullshit.

Also acknowledging that your likelihood to be rejected or to cause annoyance increases with the coldness/randomness of the approach does not mean that we collectively agree that it's unacceptable to do so. Just that if you are concerned about "staggering rejection" then this might not be the best approach for you. We have collectively agreed that harassment is unacceptable, which is different, and yes might depend on culture (even within the US) as you point out. Even more reason why every word of that sentence was bullshit.

I know this is super-late, but I wanted to comment, since I grew up in a country with a similar background to LW's before moving back to the US as a teen. LW, if not for your age and probably your nationality, you could be my brother.

I think the most important advice I can give you is to not give up, and treat every interaction as a learning experience. Listen to what other people say, but think about it and reject what doesn't feel right to you. My brother and I lived in an extremely sexually-repressive Asian country - my middle school and high school had gender-separated classes, zero sex ed for girls (my brother, at least, got booklets that explained things like wet dreams and ejaculations), and my interactions with the opposite sex was pretty much limited to occasionally yelling at boys to get out of the way when they tried to mess with us in the hallways. My brother had it even worse - he went to an all-boys middle school, and when he came back to the US, my mother enrolled him in an all-boys Catholic school. So he had zero interaction with girls until he was in college, and by then he had no idea how to talk to or even approach girls. When he asked my mother for advice about talking to a cute girl on the beach, her response was that that wasn't the kind of girl he should like (she assumed the girl was a slut because she was wearing a bikini - that's how restrictive our culture was: rampant with slut-shaming and madonna/whore complexes). On top of that, he is very introverted and is not very social, and has a hard time talking to people he doesn't know.

Because he had no one to show him how to talk to girls or act as his wingman, he's now in his thirties and has had almost zero significant relationships. He goes on dates, but goes about it in entirely the wrong way, so it usually doesn't go past the first or second date.

A big part of the problem is that he doesn't understand that it's okay to be rejected. He's terrified of talking to a girl, lest she say something mean to him or publicly reject him. I have tried to encourage him to get out and just talk to girls until he's comfortable with it, and if they won't talk to him so what? Forget her and move on to the next girl, there are literally billions out there. He won't do it - either he finds girls on the Internet with free dating apps, or, on the few occasions that a girl has given him her phone number, he finds excuses to not call her (he won't say it, but he's afraid she won't be interested in him once she gets to know him). With the Internet girls, he inevitably seeks out girls with some kind of baggage or issues, since they're almost as desperate as he is and therefore unlikely to reject him. And just as inevitably, it doesn't work out because she has baggage and/or issues.

So my advice to you is the advice that I would give him: don't give up, even if you get rejected. Talk to girls, and learn what works and is comfortable for you. Learn what comes naturally and easily for you, and use it to your advantage. Even if you just start out saying something like "I'm new at this, so I'm sorry if it's the wrong thing to say, but..." you'll learn something. Be patient, it takes a while to learn. Ask friends for feedback. Don't be afraid to talk to someone - the worst that will probably happen is that they'll ignore you or brush you off, and if that happens, just respect that and move on. If not, chat a bit and ask for a phone number. If a relationship doesn't work out, try to learn from it.

If you date online, make your profile interesting and thoughtful, and start out slow - if you try to dazzle the girl on the first date, you might come off as desperate or like you're expecting something in return. My brother tries to arrange fancy dates all the time, and more often than not, it scares girls off. Just suggest coffee or a fun activity, like going to a local fair or a nice hike. Talk about things that interest you or that she has indicated interests her. And look up "Nice Guy Syndrome" to learn what NOT to do.

Good luck. I know the culture shock can be pretty extreme, but if you're patient and willing to learn, I'm sure you'll be fine. :)

@EmmaLiz

I would call out a particular number but wow, there are a lot of them.

First, in regards to your spectrum of what "public" is. I'd say that it doesn't matter. Let's break it down.

1. Obviously public places where nobody wants to socialize. Subways, cafes, etc. You are most likely going to get shot down and irritate the woman.
2. Hobbies. Technically you might be able to make that happen but it can lead to lots of messy drama, even if a relationship happens. I can't tell you how many times I've seen groups that gather around a hobby get torn apart due to relationships. The expression I've heard in regards to that is "don't shit where you eat". That also counts for meeting people at the workplace or any type of religious grouping(congregation, coven, whatever).

You might want to take a look at the link that @47 put up. That's a really, really good example of what I'm talking about.

I'm sorry that my use of the word staggering bothered you as much as it seems to. However, I do maintain that if you use anything other than OKCupid as your dating pool then you'll fare badly in your hobbies and overall be passionately disapproved of in any community you find yourself in. Though this might not be something that 100% of people across the US agree on all the time, the percentage is pretty high. And even if you carefully craft each individual message you send to each woman whose profile you read in detail you still will go through dozens and dozens of messages before you get a bite.

And in regards to being "top of the heap" in relation to the group that you are in, I'm surprised that drew the amount of flak it did. It's basically saying that you need to put in the work specific to the social group you are in in order to get what you are looking for whether it's to be respected,to get a date, or any other goal you might have.

For example, I would never go to a train club and expect to make any sort of good impression at all with anyone. I barely know that Lionel and American Flyer are different brands of trains, let alone what makes them different. I just don't have that background. Or if you aren't in really good shape then maybe trying to use a running club as your dating pool might not work. Or if you aren't good at RPGs then maybe a gaming club might not be your dating pool.

Anyhow, have fun explaining in painful detail over a number of comments how awful I am!

@67 Painful detail over a number of comments is totally my MO. However, one of my posts was duplicated an hour after I posted it, and I’m not sure why or how. It’s probably the fault of Russian hackers.

Your more nuanced post now is very different from your former one which suggests that it’s unacceptable to talk to women anywhere except online. Even by your revised definition of public, that still leaves most of the non-online world available.

Moving on, maybe we are talking past one another, but I was never suggesting that someone should pretend to be interested in something that they aren’t. Rather that people who are socially involved in many things and people who have lots of hobbies/interests that they pursue also happen to be the sorts of people who meet a lot of people and therefore have a better chance of having sexual relationships. Getting out and doing things is how you meet people.

In any case, I don’t think I said anything about you personally.

I'm going to try to clarify that again Ghostdog (painful detail over a number of posts) using your own running / train analogy. It would be stupid to join a club you don't care about just in the hopes that you might get laid. The whole point is to change that sort of thinking- that you are out just to get laid. Especially in the context of this LW who is asking about more than just getting laid, but also how to meet and interact with women. What I'm saying is that cultivating your own interests (genuine ones, surely you are interested in more than getting laid) and pursuing those interests with other people does three things: a) makes you a more interesting person, b) makes you more skillful socially, c) broadens your own social group / number of people you know. All three of these things are what will make you more likely to get laid. Not that you should just randomly join a group to hit on women.