Savage Love Mar 28, 2017 at 4:00 am

Positive Thinking

Comments

108
@25 the difference between sex, porn, and masturbating, at least for a man, isn't necessarily about energy for sex, it's the energy for the (catchphrase) Emotional Labor.

When you watch porn, or masturbate (or both), it's exactly what you want. Your thoughts, your attention span, your interest level. The exact right timing of increased and decreased intensity. Your timetable. Sex with another person, while gratifying on many levels that masturbation isn't, is also a compromise. If you're masturbating 7 days a week and only have sex twice a week while your wife wants more, it's because your wife is probably asking you for more than you want to give, emotionally, during sex.

Maybe she's asking too much, or maybe you're willing to give too little. But it's not especially about frequency and orgasms.
109
Wow, over 100 comments already, and it's only Friday!

I can definitely see both sides of the argument regarding DADT. I would be hugely upset if a new lover failed to reveal his HIV+ status, denying me the opportunity to decide for myself whether to accept the risk - and DADT's lover outright LIED in response to a direct question, which is even worse than if he had simply failed to reveal without being asked. I'd also worry that a person who lied about his HIV status would be more likely to lie to me about other important stuff if we started dating. On the other hand, this guy's conscience (and maybe his growing affection for DADT, it does sound like the two of them really hit it off right away) drove him to confess and ask for forgiveness immediately afterward - and I do get that pos people still want to live their lives and find ways to get past society's reflexive negativity about HIV, now that modern medicine has largely eliminated the risk of passing on a death sentence. So ultimately, if I were DADT, I think I might a chance on an otherwise-wonderful man and potential long-term partner, who made a very bad mistake at our first meeting but then appeared truly sorry for his actions - with the clear understanding that if I ever catch him in another serious lie, it's over.

Kudos to Ricardo and BDF for being such great advocates to always use condoms during penetrative sex with non-exclusive partners, regardless of what those partners say or don't say about their HIV status. As other commenters have pointed out, HIV is not the only thing to worry about; testing does not yield 100% reliable results; and responsible sexual hygiene needs to remain a top priority for all of us, especially for the younger generations. They did not have to go through the horrible experience of losing dear friends and lovers to AIDS during the 80s and 90s, but the next venereal epidemic could hit them just as hard, if they fail to learn from my generation's example.
110
@93 Fan. Yes I meant they were both involved in the dynamic, not just him.
Just doesn't sound like a whole lot of love is going on between these two and at such a young age to be treating each other like this does not look good for the future of this marriage.
After the cyclone up Nth we copped rain and wind here in south east qld and our power is still off, second day now, lucky we have tank water and gas for cooking. Only a quick trip to my daughter's ( who has power) allowed me to have a shower and recharge my mobile.
LW, this relationship you guys have sounds tortured, why do you bother.
111
...So, it's taken me this long to really look and laugh at Joe Newton's illustration this week: guy attempts to bury his HIV "positive" bone(r) under a heaping mound of bullshit, while thinking "I've got an undetectable viral load, so it's not such a bad thing to lie about it." The happy-face is doubly symbolic, representing both his pos status - sinking, but not submerged, under the bullshit - and also the overly-optimistic spin he's putting on his own actions. Brilliant, and subversive. I sure wish I could think (and draw) like Joe!
112
vab @ 106 - "Note that since I make it clear that I am poz friendly, a playmate would have no reason to lie"

I met the person I talked about in this thread (starting @ 4) online, and it took us about a week to actually get a chance to meet face-to-face. During that week, I told him about my previous experience with an HIV positive man, and insisted that I didn't regret a thing in spite of the tragic ending. That was (and still is) the way I tell people that I'm not opposed to a relationship with a poz guy, and that they can be honest with me.

And yet, he lied about it. For most of our relationship.

Sometimes people are fucked up beyond reason, and no matter what you do, they'll lie to you anyway. Not having any reason to do it does not necessarily mean that they won't. In my former BF's case, it simply was his modus operandi - a pathological liar, if you will. There's not much you can do against those, unless they're bad at it and it's easy to spot their lies. Unfortunately for me, he was an excellent liar.
114
How does SPOUSE initiate? Do we know if she just touches his arm or does she reach for his dick? Some men are clueless. She might need to be more overt.

How does he reject her? Does he turn away or say he is too tired? Does he think he can't get it up? If he is 31 years old and is having trouble getting it up, then he needs to see a doctor.
115
Hunter @113, that was my first reaction to SPOUSE's letter also - "Maybe he's just not that into you." But there is the statistical fact that the male-bodied partners tend to have higher and more continuous libidos than their female-bodied partners in long-term hetero relationships, and then there are the outliers that create the classic Bell curve. SPOUSE's husband likely falls on the low side of the Bell curve for males, while SPOUSE occupies the high side of the curve for females. Telling her that "most men would be delighted" does not really help her with her current problem, which is that she wants HER man to want her as much (or more specifically, as often) as she wants him - and since that's apparently not possible, to develop practical coping techniques to deal with her sexual frustration and disappointment.

There are many reasons why a man might have a lower-than-average sex drive, despite deeply loving his wife, and despite watching porn every day. Among them are a lower-than-average testosterone level; preoccupation over unrelated but personally important matters in his life, or in their shared married life - porno may be his favored distraction and relaxation technique, whereas partnered sex reminds him of whatever stress he is trying to forget; psychological discomfort with his own sexual nature and desires, due to his upbringing or religious training or some other factor; chronic physical, mental, or emotional pain; a serious addiction to porn, so that partnered sex comes in a distant second to his fantasy world; the yearning for a sexual kink that he is embarrassed or afraid to share with SPOUSE; or he may be on the asexual spectrum, like the husband of semi-regular commentator Cat in Fez. While none of these factors are SPOUSE's fault, she might not feel so angry and rejected if she could better understand her husband's reasons for turning her advances down so often - so yeah, they really need to talk.

Personally, I would suggest that SPOUSE take up Zen meditation - there are many self-instruction books in the library, or you can jump-start your practice with an adult-ed class, tutor, or professional counselor. You learn to deal with life's misfortunes by objectively acknowledging them and then making a conscious decision to move forward despite and because of your current struggles, rather than getting stuck in an endless spiral of disappointment with your life and the people in it, which leads to self-pity because you are so stuck and disappointed, which leads to further dwelling on the disappointment, etc...
116
@105 Ricardo: Kudos for having a sound plan of action. I already know that spermicidal condoms don't kill STDs / HIV+, etc. (they only help to prevent unplanned / unwanted pregnancy), but thanks for sharing the important reminder nonetheless.

WOW----!! Like Capricornius said, over 100 comments and it's only Friday! Hunter should be pleased with the responses this week.
@109: Capricornius: I second your shout out to Ricardo and BiDanFan for sharing their wisdom on safe sex practices and condom use. I had to battle my butt off when married to insist on using condoms during penetrative sex (my ex is one of those misinformed macho idiots who actually believes "sticking it in only a little won't result in pregnancy". My head obviously wasn't screwed on straight when I foolishly tied the knot despite my knowing better).
Live and learn.
117
@94 futurecatlady [re @91 BiDanFan], and @96-@102, comment thread of futurecatlady and DonnyKlicious: Thank you both for offering further insight on antiviral use and lesions, further corroborating that condoms do not safeguard against everything.
@111 Capricornius: I second your kudos. Joe Newton rocks.
118
Joe, do you have any graphic novels out? I'd buy one. Your artwork is sheer genius.
119
This is Spouse.

I am pretty obvious when I initiate. My husband would prefer I'm more subtle and romantic (I usually just flirt a bit and then asks if he would be down to fool around).

Getting hard is not the issue. If we get started, he gets hard.

The reason for the "no" is generally "too tired."

This is a longstanding issue for the last 3 years.

I do tend to blame myself for the problem and it's exhausting.
120
Spouse, a 31 year old man should not be too tired for sex. When you get started, can he do it twice? His recovery time should be no more than 20-30 minutes before he is ready for action again.
Have you and he tried morning sex? Wake up 30 minutes early. Grab his dick. If he still says he is too tired, he needs to see a doctor or a shrink.
121
Spouse @119: Thanks for writing in.
If "too tired" is the problem, one potential solution seems obvious -- try initiating earlier in the evening. At one point in my former marriage, I was working a harrowing schedule and my sex drive dropped off. My spouse didn't help by waiting until my exhausted head had hit the pillow before making any moves on me, by which point, of course, I had no energy for sex. Is the tiredness issue something he can see a doctor about? Try vitamins, a change of diet, or a less grueling workload (which is generally the advice given when it's a woman who is too tired for sex)? And like I suggested @25, is he perhaps "too tired" because sex with you takes quite a long time, and if so, is there any way to make sex quicker but still satisfying for you, or for you to do more of the work?
And don't listen to Amos101; we both know 31 is not 21.
You're not to blame; it's a fallacy that all men are horny 24-7.
122
@121 thanks for your ideas. I don't demand lengthy or complex sex. I take like 5 minutes to come and I love quickies or just a bj.

I think he in fact prefers that if we have sex, it's piv. We rarely have quickies and that's not my choice, I've expressed my interest in them but he says they make him feel guilty (presumably bc I don't come, but I don't mind, which I say).

His job is very demanding and I think that has a lot to do with it, after reading all of these comments.
124
SPOUSE, nice to see you here. Is your guy Catholic, you mentioning guilt. If this has been going on for years, it really is time for a rethink between you two.
It sounds like there are some issues you two might find clarity with by seeing a therapist. Talk these problems out.
Also if the man is tired, then don't sleep together every night. As Fan suggested organise earlier times.
I lived seperately from my husband over thirty odd years and multiple kids. We stayed monogamous and sexually active till the end. Not sleeping together every night saved the eternal night time ritual I assume many couples go thru. Constant pressure from one or the other.
You sound like you're driving each other a little crazy. So stop and talk. Good luck.
125
Spouse of the week
Thanks for stopping by. I wonder if what Lava and others said here about your relationship made you look in other directions.
As a double former married strictly male it seems to me like you have done your fair share of reaching out and offering solutions.

126
Spouseoftheweek, have you tried talking about this with him when you're both relaxed and sex isn't on the table?
Maybe you could write down what bothers you the most. Is it being rejected? Is it that you are horny and feel unsatisfied without an outlet? Is it that you are resentful that he masturbates to porn but is too tired to have sex with you? Is it that you are questioning your attractiveness to him? Is it that you are angry that you have to do all the initiating?

I think you should really try and sort through the different components of this and then have a conversation at a time when you both know you're not asking for sex. Pick a less-stressful time of day and week for you both, when you have time. Do not have expectations for how this should get resolved. If you drink, maybe have a drink first--but not too many.

Don't put him on the defensive, but ask him to really hear you and then listen to what he says.

127
Is Spouse's husband religious? If he is, he should consult Exodus 21:10.
(paraphrased) He should provide her with food, clothing, and her conjugal rights (sexual relations) whenever she wants it.

128
@121 BiDanFan
I'm reminded of the old joke: What is the difference between concern and panic?
Concern is when for the first time you (a man) can't do it twice.
Panic is when for the second time you can't do it once.

A healthy 31 year old should be able to perform every day. If not he needs to see a doctor.
129
Spouse-
30 year old woman here, and I've had the experience of being the high-desire partner in multiple hetero relationships, and the low-desire partner in other hetero relationships. It's fashionable now to say biology is responsible for asymmetries in desire. In my experience, more was going on in the relationship and my partner's life. In some instances, my partner was stressed out from work. In others, he was interested in someone else. In all instances: not willing to change.
Whatever you decide to do, I hope stopping the self-blame is part of it. Desire is complicated.
130
@119 SPOUSE: Thank you for joining us. It sounds like there is a lot of marital stress. I empathize; I've been there before and often was the one to initiate. Make love in the morning? I'm with nocutename (@126)---maybe find a mutually agreed upon less stressful time of day and week for sex? See a counselor or therapist? Tell your husband what you like and ask him what he likes? And don't be afraid to tell him, no matter how tired he is or seems. Maybe that would help clarify your sexual needs and you could both reach common ground.
One idea: do you like bubble baths? Any chance you could coax your hubby into joining you before possibly having sex? That could be an icebreaker.
And I agree with LavaGirl (@124): Keep communication open. Good luck.
131
Amos @128: "Perform." See, there is the problem. Mr SPOUSE may be thinking in your terms, every shag is a "performance," rather than just enjoying each other's bodies. Too much pressure.
132
BDN @131, good point - no one should feel they have to "perform" during sex, it's supposed to be fun not work. But when a young-ish man is too tired for more than twice-weekly sex for THREE WHOLE YEARS, then maybe it is time for them to talk about work-life balance, and how each of them can compromise to get more of what they want and need. SPOUSE tells us that hubby would prefer a softer, subtler approach when she is feeling horny, so maybe she can work on that for herself. But in return, hubby could work on being a little more flexible about what constitutes "sex" so they could at least squeeze out a few quickies or oral sessions each week, despite his busy and apparently exhausting work schedule.
133
BiDanFan @131 Yes, "perform" may not have been the best choice of word. But if SPOUSE wants PIV sex, Mr. SPOUSE needs to be able to "get it up" or "be hard" or (your choice of words).

Everyone approaches sex from their own experience. A 31 year old man (even with a highly demanding and stressful job) should be able to make time for his wife. He is either insensitive, lazy, physically challenged, mentally challenged, or gay (in my opinion).
134
Amos,
While there are certainly some issues that Spouse's spouse needs to address, it also seems like you're jumping from one generalization to another with that gay-in-you-opinion conclusion.

If I read you right then every man in a certain age group must be able to "perform" with a woman. If they don't then of course they must be gay.
135
Oh good grief. A guy has sex with a woman twice a week (or more -- SPOUSE says the issue has been going on for three out of their four years) and he's gay.
As a (presumably) straight guy, you probably don't have any experience of any other men's sex drives but your own. Correct? Perhaps you should shut up and listen to those of us who have had sexual relationships with multiple men. There's a bell curve, and this guy's at the lower end of it, but still obviously straight. I mean, he doesn't even like trans women, that we know of. Male heterosexuality is SO fragile!
136
I missed whether this has been issue with SPOUSE and Mr. SPOUSE since the very beginning. Were they ever compatible in this regard? I think many couples go through an adjustment in sex frequency after the honeymoon phase, but some people have a harder time than others with that transition. It seems to me like it's more often women who experience considerably decreased desire for a monogamous partner a couple years in, but some men experience this, as well. It's a difficult issue to resolve if one prefers monogamy but has a hard time maintaining desire for a monogamous partner.

I have no idea if this is a factor in this specific situation, but I think it's a rather common scenario.
137
SPOUSE reported that Mr. SPOUSE watches porn every day. What kind of porn?

@134, @135. Gay was only one of the five reasons that I offered for Mr. Spouse not fucking his wife as much as she wants. The others were insensitive, lazy, physicaly challenged, and mentally challenged.
138
Spouseoftheweek @122 "His job is very demanding and I think that has a lot to do with it"

That seems likely. Can you open a discussion with him about finding a different balance in your household, so maybe you pick up more work or you both reduce expenses so that he can change to a job with less stress?

Men often feel judged based on income, plus ability to satisfy someone sexually. Providing him with unwavering love and emotional / financial support might do the marriage more good than reminding him that you're unsatisfied.
139
Amos @137: And "gay" ranked higher than both "overworked" and "perfectly normal but with a lower-than-average sex drive".

Apparently it's not enough to exclusively like women to qualify as straight. You must fuck women a minimum number of times per week or your straight card gets revoked. I reckon if SPOUSE stumbled across gay porn, she'd have mentioned that detail, don't you think?

I'm thinking there's someone here who's mentally challenged, but it's not Mr SPOUSE.
140
EricaP, thanks, what you said rings true. Men and women can have different expectations they feel they must meet... the last thing I want to be is a chore/burden but that's how I feel when I ask for sex too often.

We did fuck every day more or less, for the first year. Then his appetite changed.

I am slowly turning into an "insecure bag of slop" or however dan aptly puts it.
141
@Spouseoftheweek - when you ask for sex, he chooses PIV, but are there things you would count as getting your "sex"-itch scratched, and could ask for, that would be lower key for him than PIV?

For me, having my back scratched is intimate and sexual, for instance, even when it isn't foreplay (it often is), but leads to nothing beyond a nice back scratch.
143
No wonder the discussion is over. Once again Hunter’s porn-inspired advice make so much sense in real life.
144
Quite often, in lieu of PIV all I really wanted and needed at the end of the day was a hug.

Hunter should be happier this week with the number of SL responses in the three digits.
146
And minus 50 points for Hunter and his useless comment @142, and closing down any further comments for SPOUSE , because it all somehow seemed pointless.
148
So simple SPOUSE. Just rub his dick and all will be fine. It's called seduction by some, just try it.
149
Exactly Lava. Except, oh wait. SPOUSE's husband has already said he'd like her to be more subtle. Grabbing his genitals does not exactly fall into that category.

This guy looks at porn every day. Arousal is not the problem.
150
Knee socks are sluttish now?
151
Dadddy @147: Despite your questionable taste in "sexy" accessories, I shouldn't lump you in with boneheads like Hunter and Amos, or try to womansplain how men like to be seduced.

We established last week that I pretty much have a male pattern sex drive. So back when I was in Mr SPOUSE's overworked shoes, what could have got me in the mood for more sex? You're correct: my husband should have attempted to seduce me, rather than waiting until bedtime before suggesting sex (which had always worked in the days when I had a lighter workload). Wearing sexier clothing and a scent he likes, and flirtatious touch, are good ideas. As is the standard advice given to men with overworked wives: give him a back/neck rub, while scantily clad, and playing sexy music. And be prepared that his only reaction may be "thank you for the massage." If she gets grumpy because the back rub or lingerie fails to seduce him, then she's back to square one, and her seduction attempts will send him running.

The only caveats to the "wear lingerie" advice are:
1. He is already using the idea of sex -- in the form of porn -- to switch from work brain to relaxed brain. So it's not like my situation, where sex never even entered my mind.
2. She wants sex almost daily. So if she goes around wearing lingerie daily, he may become inured to the sight and able to tune it out. This is why lingerie is suggested as a "special occasions" item.
Though I can vouch that a sexy woman going around the house in lingerie but not expecting sex is pretty much excruciating. Try it, SPOUSE!
152
@95 & @88 CMD & Horton & Donny

Though I'm sure it's beating a dead horse and it appears the thread has taking a turn (I haven't finished reading the rest of the new comments, please put the conversation around semen build up (a wonderful topic, any time of day) into the context of the letter. We are not talking about someone who is sex starved or asking someone to go all NoFap. Not having a penis (but having lots of familiarity with many penises over the years), I'm aware that I don't have first hand knowledge. But are you really saying that someone who is ALREADY fucking twice a week regularly and jacking off every single day when he has the option to fuck five times a week but chooses not to is suddenly going to have the desire to fuck more times a week if he just refrained from jacking off instead- a choice he could already made but doesn't. See? I just don't think the semen build up between Tuesday when he fucks his wife and Friday when he fucks her again is going to translate into the desire to fuck his wife on Thursday also. I think it would, instead, translate into frustration that he can't jack off on Wednesday and Thursday, and that will create new problems. I totally agree that if this were someone who was not already regularly fucking his wife, then refraining from jacking off might be a good way to redirect his libido towards sex and that desire would increase with semen build up. But this guy isn't having that problem. He fucks his wife twice a week and could fuck her more but chooses not to because he'd rather do something else.

Also I agree with what Sportlandia said.
153
OK I've read the rest of the thread now (thanks, Spouse), and I think maybe people don't appreciate the "tired" argument. Again, I agree that Spouse and her husband should compromise and he should be down for another day a week of something, and good advice here about how to go about doing that or how to take the pressure off.

But sex is actually tiresome. People handle stress differently, and physical exertion (though it's good for everyone) is not relaxing to everyone. People drive five blocks when they could walk because they are tired and stressed and just not up to the effort of walking. It's not healthy, but it's very widespread. Jacking off when you could fuck is like that too, and considering that he's stressed with work and tired and already having sex twice a week, I think it's extremely normal and common that he'd rather just relax with some porn and jack off most days of the week.

They should cut the difference, reduce the pressure, and compromise. Sounds like she's offering to take a more active role, and if he's refusing that, he needs to work on not being so selfish or self-absorbed. One way to cope with stress is to check out (some people do this by marathon watching netflix, others by jacking off to porn, others by posting online about other people's sex life). He needs to redirect and re-engage at least another day a week, especially since you don't want this trajectory to continue and in the future they are down to once a week or he prefers to disengage with porn even more often.

Also I dont know if it's already been discussed, but can she participate in his porn/jackoff session once a week or so? That might be a way to get some low pressured couple sexual experience that could grow into something new.
154
Also, there's a apocryphal "sex move" where you are having sex with a woman, doggy style, and midway through you tell her you're HIV positive and then try to hold on while she tries to buck you off, like a rodeo competition.

Generally speaking, there is no excuse, IMO, for not divulging your HIV status. I understand the fear, the constant rejection, but it's a life-altering diagnosis for a reason. You don't get to move on from it. The consequences are real, and not being able to just have sex with someone like a normie is one of them.
155
EmmaLiz @153

I suggested SPOUSE might want to join him for a porn session at least once a week - over 100 comments ago. She could focus on herself, but still see if he'd be interested in dividing his focus between what he's doing and her. It might not get her exactly what she wants, but it would still be a shared sexual encounter. It can also be fun to mimic what's happening in the porn (as long as both find the activity in question pleasurable)!

BTW, I so wish this "paper" employed a more user-friendly format for its comments sections. The fact that we have to constantly read and keep track of replies to separate threads is not fun, especially when it's a high volume of comments. Sigh.
156
Helenka @155: I suggested the same thing in my very first post @10. I can't blame people for skimming though, I do it myself sometimes. It still does irk to see other commenters giving the exact same advice I did!
157
Well I don't intend to irk and I do actually read unless I say I didnt, but you can't keep up with all of it when it is 160 comments in and you are commenting on multiple threads. Plus I'm not always sober when Im here, lol.
158
Emma @157: Indeed, that's why, although it irks, I don't take it personally because I know I've done the same thing! :)

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