Savage Love Jun 7, 2017 at 4:00 am

Get Out

Comments

1
Dan the Man, your responses this week are so beautifully spot on once more!
LW1: Clearly--DTMFA. He's clearly using and abusing you. Where there's abuse,
there's no love.
GIC: PLEASE tell me you're not unhappily married to my ex. My advice: RUN, while you still can.
2
WHAM: I'm with Dan; here's hoping you don't end up like GIC.
3
@PLEASE: Yeah, your boyfriend is being a selfish dick. If he's only a selfish dick in bed, you could try, next time he does something in bed you have already told him you don't want him to do, ending the sex, getting up and leaving the room.

If that works, maybe he'll get the message.

If you fear his reaction if you do that, your boyfriend is an ABUSIVE selfish dick in bed, and you should absolutely positively dump him.

Side note: You could also make him watch pegging porn with you, then show him your strap-on, but I imaging that suggestion is probably more amusing for the rest of us to contemplate than actually helpful for you in the long term.
4
@WHAM: What Dan should have said is, you don't, you either accept a boyfriend who isn't interested in sex or you find one who is. There is nothing you do to get someone interested in sex more interested in it.
5
As soon as sex is presented as some...thing that she 'gives' to him? They're on a slipper slope to hell.
6
@PLEASE: What Dan said. Also: make sure that whoever you invite to bed next doesn't bring along that "closed loop of white guys talking to white guys about other white guys". Your letter gave me a weird sense that he really was performing for an audience, imagined or real.

7
@PLEASE Here's what you do. Next time you're having sex with him and he does any of those things: 1) remove dick from self; 2) show dick the door. This isn't about teaching some slow learner how to be more considerate in bed. This is about not being in a relationship with a douchebag.
8
@7 There shouldn't be a "next time." As Maya Angelou said, when someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.
9
I'm amazed some people still need clarification about what GGG entails. If you don't yet understand that GGG makes no sense unless its reciprocal, it says more about your lack of self-esteem than about the concept itself.
10
PLEASE – YOU: "Don't do that. PLEASE Don't do that! I don't like that, don't do it."
HIM: "Fuck you, I like it and I'm going to keep on doing it."
Is there really any question as to what you should do? If you don't DTMFA this idiot immediately, you deserve every lousy minute and rotten fuck you get.

WHAM – YOU: "Do this. Please do that. I'd like it if we could do this."
HIM: "Fuck you, I like it and I'm going to keep on doing it."
Is there really any question as to what you should do? If you don't DTMFA this idiot immediately, you deserve every lousy minute and rotten fuck you get.

GIC – YOU: "For 17 years my husband would rather fuck Mazola than me."
HIM: "For 17 years I'd would rather fuck Mazola than my wife."
Is there really any question as to what you should do? If you don't DTMFA this idiot immediately, you deserve every lousy minute and rotten fuck you get.

SUB – YOU: My partner sandpapered my clit, and fell asleep mid-finger-fuck.
HIM: "Fuck you, I like it and I'm going to keep on doing it."
Unbelievable! She DTMFA'd the loser and doesn't have to put up with that shit anymore! A ray of hope to end this week's shitstorm of idiots.
11
BTW, corn oil gets into everything and is hard as shit to wash off. Speaking from experience. Used a bottle with the GF on my waterbed back in the day. Had to use dishwashing liquid to get it out of our hair, and even that didn't completely work. Won't make that mistake again. Get some K-Y Warming Jelly, that stuff rocks!
12
Sadly there’s nothing new in all of the three fairly-depressing letters this week. And all of them seem to have been written by cis straight women, describing their inconsiderate cis het men.
Corn oil may be the exception, but even that was confirmed by DK Licious to be a worrisome substance.

In other news: What ever happened to last week’s weekly thread’s last comments? It seems like when Hunter’s @90 something was deleted for some reason the Nigerian doctors cast their spell and no one but Emma Liz @ 101 managed to get published.
13
@10 DonnyKlicious: Just as you aptly point out, the fitting response to each LW (PLEASE, WHAM, GIC, and SUB) is DTMFA. I feel especially sorry for GIC. 14 years of marital misery: they're still together for the sake of the children, and her spouse prefers fucking a bottle of Mazola than his own wife!
I swear--letters like these are exactly why I am so glad I'm asexual and no longer married.
@12 CMDwannabe, re last week's SL's deleted (hidden?) comments @102-@118:
I was wondering about that, too, and if someone complained and I got yanked from
the comment thread. Did anyone find out what the situation was? A deposed Nigerian prince seeking cyber-revenge, maybe?
14
Speaking of DTMFA and moving toward ITMFA:
Dan--do you have ITMFA caps in pink by any chance?
I visited your site, will be making a purchase soon, and
plan to wear my ITMFA t-shirt and hat proudly.
15
@14: p.s. I donated to ACLU and PP too.
16
Please: grab his throat, slap his balls, give him rough hand jobs, and when he complains feed him the exact same line back.

That's what the justice-seeking child in me wants to tell you, but in seriousness, if everything else is great (which I seriously doubt, considering what an asshat he is in the bedroom), just don't have sex with him. And when he complains, just say you don't want to have sex if he's not interested in making it fun and good for you. And if he promises to be better, and you do hop back in bed with him, and he STILL does that shit... grab his throat, slap his balls, and give him a rough handjob. Then DTMFA.
17
PLEASE, sigh. You have to let this self important wanker go. Before you do, get a small piece of thick steak, a size you can easily use, and have that hidden and ready to hit this guy's flaccid dick as soon as he drops his dacks, next time he's over.
Then tell him to fuck the fuck off, now.

Coconut 🌴 oil, people.
18
CMD @12: Yes, I too recognised the pattern -- this week's column makes me want to turn lesbian. Sad that so many women put up with shitty sexual treatment from men. (Note: WHAM's boyfriend is not being shitty, he just has a low sex drive. I wonder how women like WHAM, and, um, me, end up falling for low-sex-drive guys. Just bad luck, I guess.)

I'm also having revenge fantasies on PLEASE's behalf -- for instance, she presents her abusive boyfriend with a list of things she will not allow, states that if he does them anyway she'll kick him in the balls, and follows through -- but in reality, I think DTMFA is more practicable advice.

And I'm looking forward to checking out Make Love Not Porn, which appears to be something I've long thought needs to exist. Porn that features sex that all the participants are enjoying should not be a novelty.
20
Yes, PLEASE, dump him. Rob @16 said it better. As I was reading, my horror was growing. Why, oh why, I was thinking, has she put up with this shit? After a bit, that became a real question: Why have you been putting up with this shit? How has it happened more than once-- a once in which you jumped up and yelled I SAID I DIDN'T LIKE THAT- NOW CUT IT OUT! followed by, at the very least, running out of the bedroom.

Funny, we often hear from men complaining that the women they live with and love don't want sex at all. We never (rarely?) hear from men complaining that the women they have sex with physically hurt them. Consider that.
21
DTMFA works for many situations. But DonnyKlicious @10, not for GIC. She says, "We have two children, so that's what keeps me from "pulling the trigger."" That is a legitimate reason not to DTMFA. And is he really an MF in the same way the boyfriend in the first letter or the last one is an MF? She's resentful that her husband isn't--and has "never been"--"into sex," by which she means "into sex with her." It's not clear from her letter when she says her husband is "into pornography," whether she's resentful that he masturbates rather than has sex with her, or that she has issues with porn in general, or that she finds the porn he watches disturbing in some way.

Not long ago, a comments thread became devoted to the issue of masturbation vs. sex with another person, and several commentors here described having an attitude in which having sex with another person was so different from masturbating, especially in motivation, that they didn't consider masturbating to really be "sex" or to serve a sexual purpose. It could be that this husband is using the porn and masturbating not in lieu of a satisfying physical and emotional intimate connection that having sex with his wife may (or may not) provide, but just for the physical release. If that's the case, if it's like scratching an itch so he can get on with his day, he may still truly be "not into sex." So if she's resentful because he prefers a quick corn-oiled wank to having a deep intimate or drawn-out, or really dirty sex with her, it may be helpful for her to separate the two issues into (1) he's not into sex with her and (2) he watches and jerks off to porn.

Because he could legitimately be not into sex with anyone and just use porn for a physiological reaction that allows him to get on with his day or to fall asleep or he could be not into sex with her and is using porn to find the kind of sexual acts he fantasizes about that his wife doesn't share or want to participate in or that he's never told her he has. He could also be watching porn which features women with very different body types and physical attributes that the wife doesn't share. Again, that is not necessarily a problem by itself, if it occurs within the context of a relationship that's pretty mutually sexually satisfying, but if it's an indication that the husband isn't attracted to the wife, but is perfectly capable of being attracted to other women, that is a different situation. Still, it's easy to be attracted to a two-dimensional image who has no needs or desires or history of her own, and whose only reason for existence is to provide pleasure.

GIC doesn't mention whether or not they've discussed this, although from description of him as being "never into sex" which she seems to have known for many years and which she has "always" considered a "problem," I assume they have had some discussions about it, perhaps years ago. But I think they need to have a series of long clear discussions, in which they sort through the separate but intertwined issues and try to come to an understanding in which GIC doesn't feel resentful at being neglected in favor of porn and masturbation, the husband isn't shamed for his masturbation or the type of porn he consumes, he redirects some of his sexual energy her way, and they find some way to connect intimately, either with or without sex.

Because seriously? If the lw is marking corn oil bottles hoping to chart her husband's masturbation and laying traps to "catch" him at it, and the only thing keeping her from divorcing a man because he masturbates with more enthusiasm than he has sex with her is the fact that they have children . . . well, that's just so, so sad.
22
Fichu @20: "Funny, we often hear from men complaining that the women they live with and love don't want sex at all. We never (rarely?) hear from men complaining that the women they have sex with physically hurt them. Consider that."
Yes. This.
23
@ 20 Fichu- I found it horrible as well YET I think she's very much in love with him and is looking for advice to avoid DTMFA. Who among us hasn't done or put up with bad shit for the sake of loved one. This isn't some shitty one night stand, they been together for a while. Clearly their LTR works on many levels. Add to that women are socialized and in general are more likely to not stand up for themselves. I know plenty of really mild and shy women who put with far worse abuse for YEARS. Thanks to porn and books like 50 Shades I suspect many men today are convinced we ladies ALL secretly want to be manhandled. And I think when men consume a lot of mainstream porn, this very much conditions them to be self-centered in bed. If Please did NOT end the sex with him after he hurt her and ignored her words, he might have assumed she is secretly into it and her words are a front (ie he might be a total idiot ).

@Please Stand up to him and up for yourself. I'm sorry I think DTMFA is how this will probably end. But if you want to give him another chance (and you are entitled to) because he's great in other ways or he swears he loves you (despite the red flag of his ignoring your requests) you need to give him immediate and clear feedback if you get intimate with him again. If he hits you or chokes you, loudly tell him No and this is key - sex has to end, (I'd hit him back honestly) AND leave the room (leave his place, or kick him out of your place). Seriously, cut him off, the porn fantasy feedback loop in his head has to be disrupted.
24
Scheherazade @ 23 - "Clearly their LTR works on many levels"

This may be true (although I don't see anything in the letter that might lead you to think it is "clearly" the case), but when you start with "I hate how my boyfriend has sex with me", I think it's time to DTMFA anyway; you're clearly not enjoying yourself.
25
WHAM is well within her rights to dump her boyfriend. He's a gentle guy in bed and unwilling to initiate sex, and WHAM wants a guy whose drive for sex with her is going to make her feel desirable and whose willingness to dominate her is going to make her feel sexually aroused and submissive. That incompatibility is reason enough to end the relationship. But WHAM's boyfriend isn't a MF, he's just not a dominant in bed. It's not even clear that he has a low sex drive, as opposed to a reticence to initiate sex, as WHAM never says that he turns down sex when she initiates.

Through a hetronormative lens by which we associate manliness with sexual aggression his inability to give WHAM the sex she wants may seem lame and/or un-GGG. But it seems that when women like WHAM write in seeking advice on how to get their male partners to be more assertive in bed, there is a lot of sympathy to the point of suggesting that the relationship ought to end. Whereas, men who would like their female partners to be more sexually assertive are told to accept that their partners aren't going to initiate sex and they should be happy their partners are generally up for sex whenever they want.

As for GIC, I cannot even conceive that there exists someone who would prefer to masturbate with cooking oil than have partnered sex with their spouse. Wow. It just sounds like someone whose sexual growth became totally stunted as a young man. In any event, I would not stick around for that even though you have children.
26
@23 Ricardo Please said the bad sex had started 1 year ago, which means she's put with this shit for a year! (That jumped out as the wtf?! to me big time.) To me you only do that if you've sunk a lot of years (opportunity costs) into this guy. That combined with his attitude (the careless shittiness, you'll never leave me, because I can't even picture it in my head) said they'd been together a long time. The only reason to give him more chances is if on the non-sexual levels their relationship was working.

At first reading I very much thought what Please should do is pin Dan's column+ our comments to her MFing boyfriend as she boots him out of her life. But then I put myself in her shoes, she knows breaking up is an option (they aren't married, it'd be relatively easy unless they own property together.) She's writing Dan for a way back to good sex. Dan didn't give her that (his advice was good given what she said, but if what she said is not the whole picture...? I thought Please needed to hear the obvious thing she should have done all along for the whole year!! she'd put with him.
27
@ 26 - "To me you only do that if you've sunk a lot of years (opportunity costs) into this guy."

Or if you're still under shock because of how radical the change has been (speaking from experience, here). Still, after a year, if he hasn't taken your complaints into consideration, I don't think you should wait any longer, commonly-owned property notwithstanding.

My personal observation on men in relationships is that sex is a reflection (sometimes a precursor) of everything else. So that lack of caring and empathy he's now displaying, that's her whole future with him.
28
Cocky @19: Chickening the egg, are you? (I quite like that, I'll probably use it again.) I too would feel resentful of a spouse who was neglecting me sexually, but not himself. I think that if GIC is going to blame herself for anything, it would be making a lifetime commitment (and breeding) with someone who was unable and/or unwilling to even try to fulfill her sexual needs. My guess is that she'll only "reproduce the same problems" if she makes this particular mistake again.

Nocute @21: It was pretty clear to me that she resents the fact that he masturbates and watches porn but does not have sex with her. I don't think porn would be an issue if she were sexually satisfied.
I was wondering about the nature of the booby traps. Tabasco in the corn oil perhaps?

Re PLEASE: Did anyone else consider that perhaps it wasn't porn, but an affair, that prompted Mr PLEASE to change his sexual technique? (Not that it matters, she should dump his inconsiderate ass regardless, but she may want to get tested for STIs.)
29
@28/BiDanFan: That's an interesting thought. I am also bit skeptical about PLEASE laying blame for Mr. PLEASE's new moves at age 40 on porn (with her obligatory disclaimer that she isn't against porn). If Mr. PLEASE has been watching kink-themed porn, I would still suspect that his own interest led him there, rather than discovering pussy slapping and choking by video. Also what videos feature "vigorous clit rubbing?" That seems like an odd technique to pick up from porn.

But the truth is the origin of Mr. PLEASE's new found interests is really tertiary. PLEASE doesn't want to be touched that way, and Mr. PLEASE is refusing to stop.
30
@21 nocutename: I agree that DTMFA wouldn't be the ideal solution for GIC, as she and her spouse have two children from a 14 year marriage to consider. Another obstacle for GIC is supporting two kids as a single mom. It can be done, but shamefully, our U.S. society is frequently Trumpzillan-asshole-level hostile in being non-supportive and unsympathetic toward single mothers. GIC would need to weigh her children's welfare, happiness, and best interests along with her own should she call it quits and leave her spouse. It's a tough call. She'd need a support group (parents, family, friends, good trusted neighbors, teachers, etc.)
I guess the only question I have left for GIC is this: which is better for you and your children in the long run, staying in 'The Known": sticking it out "for the sake of the children" in a reportedly miserable 14 year marriage to someone who favors corn oil to having sex with you, or "The Unknown": DTMFA, taking the kids, and however painfully awkward, overwhelming and economically, emotionally, and physically challenging the transition, start over?
31
DTMFA for me, was a no-brainer, though, and a much simpler cut-and-run.
I never had children.
32
Sublime @ 29 - I once had a job making copies of porno movies for the home video market, and vigorous clit rubbing was standard procedure. That was 32 years ago. From the little straight (not even kink-themed) porn I have seen in the last few years, it still is. The difference with Mr. PLEASE's approach, though, is that it's the women who vigorously rub their own clit, Perhaps that explains why Mr. PLEASE keeps doing it: he may be convinced that all women enjoy this, and that PLEASE just says no because she doesn't want to be considered a slut or something.

Griz @ 30 - You forgot the tabasco in the corn oil option which BFD so brilliantly suggested @ 28 - that should make some things clear to her husband.
33
@31: I never had children, but I took the cat, dammit! I did that.
@32 Ricardo: Tabasco? THAT ought to shake things up!
34
@nocutename: I tried replying in last week's comments, but none of my efforts showed up. Anyway - I'm hesitant to share my taste in books here, but perhaps I'll work in some references sometime, and we'll see if anyone picks them up.
35
Griz @ 33 - It should give him the most memorable handjob of his life. indeed.
36
@30 Correction: GIC has been unhappily married with two children for 17 (not 14) years. Jesus. Now I REALLY feel sorry for GIC. One more headache for GIC if she does decide to DTMFA: her spouse still has visiting rights and they'd need to agree on arrangements on the kids.
37
@35 Ricardo: Shaken but not stirred?
38
@auntie griz, I agree that if GIC didn't have kids, this couple should probably split up. Too much sexual incompatibility. She is resentful and he may be as well. She herself said she'd pull the trigger on the marriage if they didn't have kids.
I'm glad for your sake that you and your ex didn't have kids if they would have kept you tied to a man who sounds absolutely horrible.
39
@WoofCandy: If you want to talk books privately, you can reach me at ballerinacowgirl@yahoo.com. I have an ongoing book group with some of the regulars or former regulars there and some other off-topic conversations with former regulars there, too.
40
@auntie griz: Always keep the pets!
42
@ 35 - He'd be even more shaken if he stirred it.

And good thing you kept the cat, BTW. I'm sure it was much happier to stay with you.
43
@SublimeAfterglow: it seems that when women...Whereas, men....

It's a double standard, but there's a double standard on double standards.
44
WHAMs partner isn't interested in having (much) sex.
Cue calls for sexual violence against him from some commentators here.
45
🌈@19 mr ballsup: that is a funny one. Marking the oil bottle. Is this a cancer making cooking oil?
She's a woman with children and a husband who doesn't much seem to desire her just his hand and pictures.
Have these two ever enjoyed sex with each other? This is just the dregs end of a long story.
46
@38 & @40 nocutename: My ex really was horrible, complete with an ill-tempered, abusive father, enabling mother, and equally messed up younger siblings. His paternal grandfather was said to be just as physically and psychologically abusive. And so my ex's evil cycle continues--hopefully not into his third marriage, for his sake as well as Wife #3's sake, and the well being of any children from his marriages #2 & #3. Naive little ol' me, I thought I could help him way back when. Ex-wife #2 still has to ties with him because of their kids.
My beloved cat and VW obviously have stayed with the lesser of the two nuts. My kitty lived to 17 years before I had to put him to sleep, sadly, from complications with old age, but lived to witness my BA of Music, bless him. I miss him still. How he and my sweet little Beetle of 40 years+ have managed to put up with me humbles and amazes me still.

@42 Ricardo: I'm surprised GIC hasn't already shaken him yet. My cat really was happier to stay with me, and flee a nightmare. I will never forget the day my father drove me down to what had been my 3 bedroom, two-car garage house to pick up my cat, his carrier, his bed, litter box, food, dishes, and toys. We did not live there anymore. Poor kitty----frightened almost to death, but as glad to see me as I was to see him.
'Where the !@#$ have you BEEN?!?' he cried.
"Coming to get you and returning to my senses," I told him. "We're going with [my Dad]."
"Whatever did you ever see in him?" was my cat's next meowed question.
My beloved VW is still mechanically wanting to know, 16 years later.
48
Griz@30 ~ you wrote my reply to @21nocute perfectly. Thanks for saving my typing finger!
49
DonnyK @10 said it all, in very few words. Bravo! I found myself wondering whether GIC's spouse was really "never into sex" or actually "never into HETERO sex." That would certainly explain his preference for Mazola over Vagina, although he did manage to sire a few kids along the way. GIC should ask Hubby whether he is gay - because if he is, even if they choose to stay married for the sake of the kids and whatever else has motivated him to lead a closeted existence, she can at least understand the reason for his complete lack of sexual interest for her. Even if Hubby denies being gay, GIC owes it to herself to relax and stop monitoring the corn-oil bottles. His porn-and-corn sex habit probably has a lot more to do with him than with her, and she's only driving herself crazy by taking it personally.
50
🌈poor fucker, can't he afford his own personal bottle of lube. I don't know LW, but when you've got to the point where you are marking the cooking oil bottle to see how much he's used to rub himself out, I'd say you've lost the battle. Pick yourself up and change this story from some other direction. First up Talk to Your Husband. And not some regular talk where half the sentences he tunes out, where he sits down and listens to you and you listen to him. Then go from there.
51
Adds a new dimension to popcorn.
52
@48 DonnyKlicious: Thanks. I was going by my own painful, personal experience.
@49:Capricornius (re GIC): I hadn't thought of that. It would explain the lack of hetero-sex over 17 years. I would hate to think that the births of two children was cover-up for GIC's spouse's being closeted, however. If so, that's pretty shitty on his part.
@50 LavaGirl: Thank you for bringing up yet another important aspect of GIC's problem---a lack of effective communication between spouses. and @17: Coconut oil sounds a lot better!
@51 Still Thinking: Shaken but not...popped?
53
Tick...tick...tick.....
54
Capricornius @49: Normally the suggestion of "low sex drive means he is GHEY" makes me want to apply a digital bitch-slap, but in this particular case, it is potentially worth considering. She said she's busted him looking at porn "many times"; did she not observe the content of the porn? Was it gay porn? I generally assume that if it were, the LW would have said. It would be interesting to hear Mr GIC's reasoning. Is he gay, on the asexual spectrum, or just selfish and lazy? I'd suggest "terrified of having more children" or "no longer attracted to his wife," but those would be possibilities indicated by a prior interest in sex, which isn't the case here.
55
If it wasn't that GIC said, "...but the other stuff was good" I'd think her husband may be a bit autistic or anti-social in some way. Given that he relates OK otherwise, but is only uninterested in sex with himself... dunno. This sounds like a case for Super-Counselor! There's obviously something wacky going on in this relationship. And what good does marking the bottle do? It just conforms what you already know and makes you crazy(-er). Might be time for an ultimatum. Counseling to address this problem or (whatever drastic steps you feel you can actually take.) You wouldn't be the first woman with kids to get divorced. It's not optimal for them but neither is living in a family where Mom & Dad are dysfunctional. It can be done, and it's easier if hubby can be reasonable and adult about it. Maybe you both feel trapped in a bad situation. After my own (amicable) divorce I will admit that it impacted my daughters and changed their lives, but so do a thousand other things, and their mom & I still love them, don't hate each other, and will be jointly hosting my youngest's graduation party in a week. I can't imagine gritting my teeth and staying together and sexless for the last ten years though.
56
Not "uninterested in sex with himself"...interested. Typo.
57
@38 @nocutename Maybe when the kids are a tiny bit older, she will feel fine proposing an open marriage. I personally would have found that threatening when my kid was tiny but liberating when she was older.
58
Why is coconut oil better than corn oil?
Is this all this anti-corn oil elitist?
59
I feel like Dan gave the GIC answer kind of short shrift. Usually it seems pretty obvious (assuming the letter-writer is being honest) what's going on, but there are acres of scope for reinterpretation of GIC's message that might give a very different understanding of what's going on.

First of all GIC says her husband has never liked sex ... but he's got enough of a libido to use porn and to get his rocks off regularly with the aid of household staples. So he does like sex ... just not with her. They at least need to find out why that is. Maybe there's just a shit-ton of repression at work and he's never thought he could bring up his minor and ordinary or bizarre and freaky kinks with her. Which ... if she's a total oil-monitoring pornophobe, could well be a justified fear on his behalf.

After all there's a huge theme of sex shaming here, surely. "I've been reduced to marking the bottle and booby-trapping it to see if he's been up to his tricks". WTF? I mean ... he's got the right to do what the hell he wants with his dick, even if he owes his wife an explanation about why he won't use it with her, and why he doesn't have the ovaries to buy some better lube. The whole 'corn oil' thing suggests someone desperately ashamed and hiding something, and frankly ... in need of a counsellor or something to unpack whatever the fuck is going on.

As for all the people saying DTMFA. Is he really a MF? What's his 'MF' level fault here? What has he done that deliberately (rather than incidentally) hurtful? Marrying someone with different sex drive? Yeah, but that's surely shared with his wife - and half the population of the world. Being ashamed and humiliated, both in general about sex, and by a wife who seems pretty fucking judgemental and sex-shamey if you ask me? Again ... not exactly rare or grounds for calling someone a MF.

So ... I feel like 'leave, be companionate, or carry on' doesn't cover all the options. I'd say ... 'start communicating and get to a fucking sex-positive counsellor to find out what's really going on' would be my first step, especially given the wish to stay in the marriage because of kids.

Divorce may still be the best thing, but there's more to unpack here.
60
Fred2 @59: The MF move is knowing that his wife would like to have sex, is desperate to have sex, but is masturbating instead.

I agree though that there is more to unpack, not least why GIC married someone with a much lower sex drive and expected it to increase. One question is, does Mr GIC know his wife is desperate to have sex? I tend to assume that LWs only write to Dan after they've talked to their partner about the problem, but the partner takes no steps (or outright refuses, like Mr PLEASE) to address the issue. But that is not necessarily the case. If Mr GIC believes that women have lower sex drives than men, and GIC never predisposed him of this notion by asking for/initiating more sex (some women believe men should do all the initiating), he may just think that GIC has an irrational opposition to masturbation. Perhaps he's using cooking oil rather than lube because GIC threw away his lube? So in other words, I agree with your first step. TALK about it; find out why he's not into sex with her, and then proceed accordingly.
61
Nocute @ 58
I go with either coconut or avocado oil for stir fry and such and olive oil, though not Italian, with salads.
62
🌈 I cook with oilive oil CMD. Coconut oil is so expensive, for cooking. For body use, it's a bargain. There are oils nocute to stay away from for cooking. Not sure if corn oil is one of them. I just steer clear of all of them, except oilive and 🌴.
63
🌈Yes oilive oil is a problem heated up. Guess I need to pay the extra for C Oil.
64
In the comments to last week's column, QuothTheRaven put in a request (@80) about how to get a partner to "try more kinky BDSM things."

I thought it was interesting that WHAM in this week's column has a similar question.

And I think Dan's advice is fundamentally correct in both cases: "your boyfriend isn't going to become someone else—he's not going to suddenly become more interested in sex or more sexually aggressive."

That said, I do think it's possible to explore new things IF the couple is already having fun sex and so the initiator can keep the stakes low: "We don't need to do this, I'm happy with our sex life; I just think it might be fun to try something new. Here are some ideas I've had; I'd be open to hearing any fantasies you might like to try too!"

Assuming the other person seems game but doesn't jump to initiate, the next step would be to ask for it in a sexy way during sex – "I love how you fuck me, oh, yeah, and oh, hold my arms down, that makes me feel so overwhelmed, I love it" and then give tons of enthusiastic praise afterwards.

And no criticism ever.

If they gave your thing a try, don't say "Well, it would have been better if X."

Keep your reaction positive – "I loved what you did! It was so much fun and got me so excited! Now I'm thinking about doing it again, with more X! That would be so hot!"

If the couple doesn't have a satisfying sex life, then I don't think there's much that works (whether suggestions, praise, or criticism) to jump-start the absent sexual energy.

And if your partner refuses to try your suggestion, don't keep pushing. That's a good way to kill a satisfying sex life by not seeming to care about your partner's preferences.
65
@47: "I believe you owe your readers an explanation of what happened last week."

You have enough creepy-maladjusted postings here from time to time that nobody owes you shit.

Don't post antisocial garbage if you want it to persist, or keep it to your personal blog.
66
@65 - *high-five*
67
@65: ""I believe you owe your readers an explanation of what happened last week.""

I would guess that someone or a bunch of someones had had it with the garbage that this person spews and reported him for trolling.
I'm just thankful for avatars and the fact that he uses one--saves me the time I'd waste reading one of his comments.

I kind of wish that people wouldn't encourage him by interacting with him or even by commenting if one of his undoubtedly offensive comments gets removed, but oh, well.
68
@65 undead ayn rand: For the win!
69
Hee hee (again)!
70
@58 nocutename: It was just that coconut oil, when applied and spread on my body sounded better (to me, anyway) than corn oil, and
@67 nocutename: Precisely why I have been ignoring the troll lately.
@62 & @63 LavaGirl: I cook with organic Extra Virgin olive oil. Our local co-op really spoils us.
@69: Best sex I never had.
71
Dan the man----my beloved VW is in the shop for long-term maintenance (costing a bit more than usual, but if left uncorrected could otherwise cost a small fortune down the road). Once I see and pay my auto mechanic bill and get my Love Bug back, I am placing my ITMFA order.
May has been a month for getting rid of old junk, clutter, and what I no longer need or have room for (I am happy to say I've let a LOT of shit go, finally), and June has been a month for reshuffling finances.
72
@71: Hopefully now I have more money to put into my sweet little car, instruments, and tech support. On to movements II and III, and online Orchestration programs.

Okay. Next commenter, please. At this point I really have said plenty for a while.
73
I picked the wrong week to go on holiday. Looks like I missed all the drama!
Congrats again, Auntie Griz. Hope you get your Bug back on the road as quickly as possible.
74
As a woman married to a greysexual man, 'not thinking about sex a lot' jumped out at me. There are a lot of dimensions to sexual desire, and as well as having a much higher libido than my spouse, I read erotica, chat about sex with friends, discuss sex here, and so on. He doesn't think about sex almost at all, especially now that we've come to an arrangement so he doesn't have to worry about whether I'm going to ask for sex and the conflict that will bring.

Whether or not the guy is on the asexual spectrum, he's not the same kind of sexual as her; she has to decide if that's enough for her, and either break up or figure out if he's open to a nonmonogamous thing like we did. It can be tough even if a guy isn't interested in sex, because there's so much cultural baggage about satisfying a woman, owning her through monogamy, and so on. My husband is MUCH happier not fucking me and knowing my boyfriend does; but it took him a while to get over reasonable fears and unreasonable cultural crap about it.

In my current position, I can magnanimously say: as for the 3rd letter, jerking off is not as fully sexual an act as partnered sex, and can just be a physical release, particularly for someone who is on the asexual spectrum. That said, when I wasn't getting fucked, the knowledge that my husband occasionally masturbated did drive me crazy, though not as controlling-crazy as this lady. GIC, stop, stop, stop, marking the bottle. You're not learning anything, and you're not helping anything. You can't do either by yourself, or AGAINST your husband. Get into honest conversations, get into counseling.
75
PLEASE, I was in your situation a couple of years back. My husband, after a decade and three kids, had degenerated into an impatient and selfish lover. "Foreplay" consisted of three or four kisses (never with tongue-he didn't like it), there was no below the belt warmups, and he disliked the idea of lube, preferring instead to attempt to jam his dick inside of my protesting vagina. When I would ask him to stop, or go slower, or try more gently, his response was "it'll get better in a minute." The abuse traveled outside of the bedroom until I opened my eyes and realized that if I stayed in this marriage it would kill me. So, two years ago I DTMFA and my three sons and I are happier and healthier without him in the house. My vagina is thankful, and I found a partner who is absolutely gentle, patient, and gives me mind blowing orgasms. Get out while you can. Good luck.
76
I suppose not stopping a sexual behaviour that hurts his partner is enough to DTMFA but why was this ignored entirely?
He said... " I should feel happy that he still wants to fuck me six times a week"
That sort of comment suggests a kuind of abuse beyond what is happening in the bedroom and secondly - she's had to put up with this practically every day?
I don't want to blame the victim here- she should obviously dump the asshold - but christ- maybe she should also get some counseling as to why this kind of thing has been acceptable to her for so long?
77
BDF @54, normally I would be right there with you in applying a digital bitch-slap against the "Ooh they must be GAY since they are not into you" response, but in this case I do think the smoke may be good indicator of fire. Cat @74 makes a good case that Hubby could be on the asexual spectrum rather than gay, but the results for GIC are the same. In any case, I think GIC has to start by sitting down with Hubby (in a non-sexual situation, say after breakfast) and actually talking to him to find out what's going on, specifically why sex with her is not where it's at for him. That will give her much more information than the current game of Track-The-Mazola.

Griz @52 it's not always shitty behavior (at least not intentionally shitty) that drives people of all genders to stay in the closet rather than reveal their true natures. They may be trying to conform to family standards, religious upbringing, societal pressures (it's still pretty damned HARD to be openly gay in many parts of the USA!), or even to hetero marriage vows they took - in love, and in good faith - before they could admit to themselves that their true desires led elsewhere. Please try to be a little less judgmental about other peoples' lives. Maybe I'm an optimist, but I think that the number of psychopaths and sociopaths out there - people who either actively seek to damage others, or just don't give a damn about anyone else - are far outnumbered by those of us who want to be good people and do good things for others. Most of us hurt the ones we love by accident, not on purpose.
78
@77 Capricornius: I hear some of what you're saying but otherwise disagree with you. After 17 years of marriage--17!---two full term pregnancies, labor and deliveries, and children later, religious beliefs or not, societal pressures or not, I still think that was a bit unfair to GIC. She is now basically trapped in a miserable marriage to a man totally uninterested in making love to her. How on Earth does expressing my thoughts--as everyone seems to be doing openly here in Savage Love, including you, make me so harshly judgmental?
You think I'M judgmental. Wow---I honestly wish you could meet my bossy, controlling and manipulative, jealously possessive older stepsisters Driscilla and Anastacia, some old high school friends of my mother's and their daughters, local ladies from the small town where I grew up, along with my former in-laws, who I had to battle my ASS off standing my ground about not having children while unhappily married to their son (or sibling) otherwise. If I had relented to religious beliefs or societal pressure, guess what??--I'd be in the same exact shoes as GIC! Add to that judgmental list: clueless male friends of my ex's, one a divorcee whose ex-wife and kids won't talk to him and who once pressured me hard, on behalf of my ex, to have kids--basically anyway, because my then spouse said so. None of these aforementioned people would ever have even seen or been responsible for any children I might have had.
If my dealing with that by asserting my needs and expressing my views, whether you agree with me and like it or not makes me judgmental then I believe I've earned the right coming up on fifty-fucking-three.
79
@77, Part II: I grew up with three much older siblings (by blood and family name only. I bear no hostilities or hatred; I'm just from a different generation a decade apart and we don't see eye to eye) who hurt me many times deliberately, selfishly, spitefully, and quite often definitely on purpose to satisfy their own self-serving agendas.
Did I mention that my ex was both physically and psychologically abusive? And that by my NOT having children--despite facing overwhelming opposition--my ability to leave an unhappy marriage, recover, and start life anew for the better was a lot easier for me than if I'd ever HAD children? GIC doesn't have this advantage, and I feel sorry for her.
80
It's Friday night, a full moon is out, my back is up, and I haven't even started on the serious alcohol yet.
81
WHAM, listen to Dan, this situation is not going to change. Time to bid mr doesn't like anything, farewell.

Seventeen years this has been going on, GIC, why now are you getting up steam about it. Has your corn oil lovin' man been going on the sly all this time? If so, then it's a bit late to be mad at him, as he thinks it's been incorporated into the way you guys do things. He's into some sort of sex, watching it gets him going. You could try to seduce him, buy a nice silk lingerie set and catch him at the computer, maybe touch yourself, get his attention. Have a little whip in one hand and be wearing a mask. It might help make the conversation you two need to have, a little lighter.
82
🌈 re@81
83
Witty @75: I'm so sorry to hear that, that sounds utterly awful. Glad you got out!

Vivic @76: Good catch, and agree that that's problematic in more than one way. One, that she's endured hundreds of instances of painful sex, and two, that he thinks she should be grateful for it. The "still" is telling... is he age-shaming (when he himself isn't getting any younger) or body-shaming her?

Lava @81: Interesting suggestion. He watches porn, what kind of porn? She might have some luck getting him interested if she's willing to have the kind of sex he's watching. However, if he's exclusively into some fetish she doesn't share (he seems completely uninterested in vanilla sex), then her obligation to meet his needs when he's done nothing to meet hers is null and void, I'd say.
84
@Fichu @20: "Funny, we often hear from men complaining that the women they live with and love don't want sex at all. We never (rarely?) hear from men complaining that the women they have sex with physically hurt them. Consider that."

Question: do we ever hear that from gay men?
85
@83: "She might have some luck getting him interested if she's willing to have the kind of sex he's watching"

Isn't the issue here that she explicitly does not want the sex he's inflicting on her?
86
Whoops, that was the wrong LW. Ignore @85 :)
87
🌈Fan@83: it was more a tongue in cheek suggestion. Break the ice a bit so these two tools can, after seventeen long years and a couple of kids, talk straight to each other. There is some great communication problems going on in this relationship.
88
@75 Wittycommenthere: I'm glad you got out of an abusive marriage with three boys okay and onward and upward with a better partner! Congrats, and thanks for sharing.
PLEASE and GIC: Please read Witty's above comment and, like I said way back in @1, RUN while you still can.
89
@73 BiDanFan: I just got my beloved Love Beetle back yesterday afternoon from his new VW docs, and, to our pleasant surprise, the sun came out (it was rainy and chilly Friday morning)! My VW and I drove home with the top down. Also surprisingly, 5 pm traffic wasn't as bad as I'd feared and not as much road construction (we managed to avoid the bad streets downtown). It may have been that the graduates were out to dinner and celebrating, alleviating some rush-hour gridlock.
I will have to negotiate with my financial advisor for a little more $$$ to cover next month's rent & utilities, but I strongly feel that the expense was worth it. He really mechanically lives up to being a Love Bug, and was sorely missed over the past few days. I had a neighbor ask if we had come back from another road trip.
At least I can point out to my financial advisor that I'm not shelling out so much for storage, anymore.
90
Griz @78,79,80, you've had a difficult life. I'm sad to hear you say that you feel entitled to be judgmental because you've endured far worse judgment by horrible people in your past. But you escaped your history, and all its bad actors - you're better than that now, you don't have to keep revisiting it and taking on those negative roles! I hope this link will help you understand the heavy burden you continue to carry on your shoulders: https://tinybuddha.com/blog/5-steps-deal…

The good news is that you can deliberately choose to become more tolerant, loving, and peaceful for the rest of your life, basically the opposite of everything you learned through bitter experience during your first half-century. You are not the only person who has survived childhood and marriage within a dysfunctional family, various forms of abuse, and PTSD. It's a continuing journey, but these traumas and bad behavioral habits can be resolved with time and practice, preferably with the guidance of a good counselor. Although, here's the catch - you have to be willing to let all of those evil historical justifications go, and take full adult responsibility for everything that you do moving forward. That was then, this is now! (Admittedly, it's a lot harder to live this principle than to write it.)

Also, if you read GIC's letter, you already know that she was aware of Hubby's lack of sexual interest in her from the beginning - but the rest of the relationship was good, so she married him anyway. At some point the combination of his porn habits, her corn-oil monitoring, and his continued lack of desire for GIC (although he did manage to father their kids) became too much for her to bear. As far as I can tell from her letter, he's the same porn-and-corn guy she married, whether he's straight, gay, bi, or ace, and she entered the marriage with full knowledge that her man was never all that into her. We've seen many examples of shitty spousal behavior in SL over the years, but the only crime here is that he kept being the same person she knew him to be BEFORE THEY GOT MARRIED.
91
PLEASE - I hate how my boyfriend has sex with me... I don't know how to get him to listen to me.
As Dan said, he listened to you. I think you are asking how to get him to obey you. After all, you are obeying him. But life doesn't work like that, you can't impose your fair agreements on others. When 2 people want different things, they 1) agree on compromises or 2) give in or 3) are forced along.

If you don't want bad sex, stop consenting to bad sex. Self harm without benefit is a mark of mental illness. You are equally entitled to be a demanding, needy, selfish "dominant" in turn, even if you are a woman. Or to walk away from relationships that focus so much on posturing power plays if that's not your bag.

WHAM - How do I get him to show some sexual aggression?
Negotiate. Be specific in your requests. (I want you to start making out with me on Sunday night, start humping on me, start undressing us, start masturbating us, however you like initiation..) Offer a reward... or incorporate it by asking him to stick his dick in your mouth to start sex. Offer something he'd like, make sure he feels like it's a good deal for him too.. by asking him. Follow through. Repeat.

GIC - Thanks for the update from a random woman in corn country. The only problem that I can see in your letter is that you are resentful. (I don't think asexuality, porn, or masturbation are unethical) Resentment kills relationships. What are you not getting that you are resentful? Perhaps you want sex with your husband, or a divorce, or an extramarital lover... once you identify what you want, you are a step closer to getting it. Please pursue your desires without deceiving or forcing your desires upon others.

SUB - Thanks for the update from a random woman in doormat country. Turning a blind eye to the bad behavior of others isn't "nice" or "agreeable". It's irresponsible.

I'm pissed my last couple comments were deleted. Does Dan have that thin of skin he can't take the feedback? The most offensive thing I think I said is that it would sure as fuck be a big problem for ME if I lost the ability to orgasm from PIV and it's shitty of the medical community to diminish the problem and refuse to investigate medical corrections.
92
@90 Capricornius: Yes. I am quite blessed indeed living a much better lifestyle now. My biggest problem nowadays is dealing with the number of people who express shock and amazement that I don't spend time with my older siblings or any other people from my past who have proven unhealthy for me to associate with (you and others already know my background story so I won't go into it here).
One clarification: I never said I was entitled to being judgmental; after being the recipient of a great deal of harsh criticism and judgement for most of my life, the examples I made were to further illustrate where I'm coming from. I wasn't boasting, but branded by you as being judgmental. Is LavaGirl judgmental? Is nocutename judgmental? Is DonnyKlicious judgmental? I don't see anyone else's comments here on Savage Love being any more hypercritical than mine. I am however, free to express my own opinion and assert my needs, elaborate further on my beliefs, responses, and reactions to comments such as yours in @77, and believe I did sufficiently in @78 and @79. As for being judgmental: how many of us truly AREN'T judgmental, largely based on our upbringings and life's paths?
By the way, my oldest sister and ex-husband are both Capricorns who live to argue, insist they're always right, and refuse to let go. I hope you're not like them.
93
NEXT!
94
Donny, where are you? I could use an AACK-OOP---pppptthhhhbt!
95
@90 Capricornius: You DO make one valid point, however, that I missed about GIC (and, like BiDanFan, one of many reasons why I frequently go back and reread letters to Dan, his responses, and comments). She indeed knew what she was going into upon marrying her sexually uninterested husband. Sad that she's unhappily married now. Like GIC, I made the same mistake, stupidly hoping my former spouse from way back when would change, that I understood him better than everybody else, and / or could change him (riiiiiight!) but fortunately had no kids. Live and learn, and life goes on.
96
@90 Capricornius (and everybody else): I'm still sticking to my original comment @1 to GIC, too, but with one small edit: RUN (even though you knew better for the past 17 years and two kids later) while there is still time.
Okay. Griz is calling it a night.
97
@90 (re my comment in @92): That's hypercritical, not hypocritical, lest ye further judge.
98
Auntie Griz @95: I agree with Capricornius that GIC's problem is her own fault. Her now-husband did not hide his lack of sex drive, and she married him anyway. But "you made your bed, now lie in it" isn't helpful advice. What can she do now to fix the situation? I don't think she will have much luck in getting blood from a stone; her husband, who's now 17 years older, will not magically want to have sex with her. Time to divorce or seek an open marriage. (And yes, same advice if the no-drive partner were female.) WHAM should do the same: break up on the grounds of sexual incompatibility -- sounds like her guy would make a great bestie -- or ask for a poly relationship.
99
One of the things I've learned upon reaching the grand old age of fortyish is that one cannot, simply cannot, expect or even hope that a partner will change. Whatever you don't like about them is part and parcel of the person they are. You cannot change them; you cannot will them to change; your only choices are Take It or Leave It. If they do change, it's unlikely to be for the better!
100
Griz @92: My comment about being less judgmental specifically addressed your comment that GIC's husband had engaged in "pretty shitty behavior" by being a closeted gay man in a long-term hetero marriage, if in fact that is what he was doing (that was my speculation only). I didn't mean that ALL of your comments are more judgmental than those of other contributors. In fact, I agree with you that we all introduce some degree of judgment into our opinions, based on our own life experiences. However, I do try hard to be sympathetic and imagine walking a mile or two in each LW's shoes before rendering an opinion, as I think many of us do.

I'm not a Capricorn, zodiac-wise. It's a play on words to honor the Capricornus constellation, which has personal meaning that I do not share with strangers. And while no one would accuse me of being a shrinking violet on issues that matter to me, I strongly dislike argument and discord when it's often just as easy to find rational common ground. Peace!
101
@98 & @99 BiDanFan: And I agree with both of you that GIC's unhappiness from a sexless marriage when she knew what she was getting into was her own fault. I'm equally guilty about my own one bad marriage. Yes--time for GIC to call what truly doesn't work and move on: divorce or open marriage.
So true---I cannot change others, only myself. As a result, I have had to let a lot of people from my past go, including my three older, estranged siblings. Best to heal and move onward. With that comes forgiveness and growth.
@100 Capricornius: I've been about as sympathetic--or at best empathetic---towards LWs, Dan, and fellow commenters as I know how to be. On occasion, a letter will pop out that starts a comment thread and strikes a nerve. I can easily become prone to let my emotions take over. Like you, and from aforementioned painful experience, I am not one to pursue arguing, either (what's the point?). Here's to finding common ground. Peace!
102
Where did my comment go? Have I been locked out?
103
Where are my comments @100 and @102?
Have I been yanked for trolling?

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