Sign of a good SLOG poll: fairly close all around! I would be concerned about this kid, particularly when the follow up repetition was quiet... one of the options not suggested would be "is everything OK - do you need any help?"

@ Jaymz ... Yes! Agree all around.

e) none of the above.
Thanks. I'm not interested.
Thanks, but I'm not gay.

Having already spoken, it would be weird to say nothing. Telling him there is too much age difference just invites negotiation. Thanks, I do invites more conversation, and trying to shut it down as inappropriate invites an argument.

Engaging with someone is a roll of the dice. There's a chance you could roll snake-eyes (aka the Ricky Best Corollary). Walking away is essentially *always* a valid response, and in almost every scenario, absolutely the safest. Gamb

I haven't seen the Green doc you mentioned, Dan, but it seems to me like she is either misunderstanding or more likely deflecting the criticism: She's as bad as the men because she went out of her way to make someone feel uncomfortable, not because the impact of catcalling is the same. I suspect she understood the point and was savvy enough to redirect like she did.

Overall, I think, we should rethink the "disparate impacts" theory. While true, it leads to a weird type of entitlement. I'm recalling a group project in grad school, where me and a female classmates had a friendly disagreement about the direction we should go. She's making her case and starts caressing my thigh. I looked at her and was like "uh, why are you touching my thigh?" She giggled and said "well, I'm a girl so it's more OK". And she was sort of correct - I wasn't threatened (although I bristled at her attempted manipulation) and it was different because she was a girl and I was a guy... but clearly she felt she had carte blanche to do that type of thing, with full confidence that she would never ever be punished for it and if I or anyone else complained, they'd look like a petty loser. Entitlement 101. I suspect Green didn't get stories of men being "sexually harassed" because most men are oblivious even when it happens to them.

Anyways, TLDR: Don't catcall, don't "reverse catcall", keep walking.

I'm straight, but I love it when gay men objectify me. It's refreshing to be desired just for my body in a way that is unencumbered by all the usual anxieties, expectations, and complications.

I respect that women have opted out, but as a man, I say bring it on.

E) "I don't feel threatened by your comment but don't catcall women or girls - that's a dick move. And I'm not going to beat you up because I'm not a violent homophobe, but some men are, so you might want to dial it back."

It's being many years since I've had this problem and I don't recall it ever being something that happened to me that often. And I walked thru KingsCross (red light district then), Sydney, to get to school.
It's a menacing behaviour, for a woman, and very assumption. Do I Know You?
That a 13 yr old was on the street, being provocative, is a bad sign. Best to walk away quick.

@7/LavaGirl: I stayed in hotel in Kings Cross a few years ago, and even then that neighborhood had something of a reputation, but its seemed pretty tame compared to the East or West Village in New York. Was it something more many years ago?

SA@8, yes, back in the 70s, it was a hot spot and great bookstores. Gangsters ran the show, and people went missing. For three years in my senior years, I just breezed thru with my cute blue uniform, grey blazer, and felt hat. Most wouldn't be awake round 8am on school days, maybe. In the afternoon I just ran down a million stairs across from the school to the docks on the harbour, catch a bus, safety in numbers at that time of day.

I think he should have said something to the tiny gay catcaller. Not to protect himself or other grown men, but for the sake of the women and girls in the tiny gay catcaller's community. This kid has friends and relatives who are straight guys. They are going to look at his behavior and think "if he can do it, I can do it too." One day, the kid may grow up to become an adult who harasses other adults. Then he will probably get beaten up.

There is also the unfortunate phenomenon of gay men who harass women and think it's fine because they're "gay."

Correction @10, late sixties for school. Though I remember going there with lovers in my twenties during the seventies and it was still bubbling.

Like LavaGirl it's been many years for me since something similar occurred. However, back in the day, my go-to response was "May dick drop off and your balls turn to stone." Just sayin'

Sorry... "may ^YOUR^ dick..."

I can only dream of being catcalled because of my nice ass.

I think you should say something. This comment was rude at the least and objectifying at the worse. We are finally saying that men can't do that to women, why can't we also say, don't do it to men?

Unfortunately the kid's probably way too young to get “No, I am your father.”

@16, maybe I'm being paranoid, given I watch the USA from a distance, what if it's a police sting, trying to notch up a few pedos. Best to move along fast, in this situation.
Generally, from comments posted here, some men don't feel offended, others who do should speak up.

Alternate explanation. Kid mumbles, "buy some grass?" Guy turns, looks way too straight. Demands to know what was said. Kid says, "said, you hava nice ass." I've heard very nearly this exact exchange before, though the person with the weed was a little older (not much, juveniles are safer from the law). Depends, of course, if this happened in a "legal weed" state. I'm guessing, not.

Well, first, I have never heard of gay men harrasing women. WTF? Sounds made up to me. Anyway, I think it's always a good idea when you witness young kids doing shitty things to call them out on it, but without seeming to assholey. I think being told by a stranger they are being little shits is more effective than when their parents tell them. It has shock value!

If you Google it I'm sure you'll find several articles about gay men harassing women. It's not pretend. In college I knew someone who bothered both men and women, although whether he was "gay" or bi is questionable. I'm not saying it's a widespread problem, but the point is anyone who harasses one person are more likely to harass another.

I think the best response is "Thanks" and keep walking.

All of the speculation about what's going on with the kid himself is just that - speculation and assumption. You don't know if it was adolescent humor, or an early move on the way to coming out, or what.

Take it on face value as a compliment from a fan, thank him, and move on. That's the best way for any man to handle a stray compliment from a stranger.

Men's and women's experiences of stray compliments and pick-up behavior is so different that trying to find rules of street behavior that fit both genders is not a productive exercise. I've known a few men who feel uncomfortable being objectified like that (usually men from conservative religious backgrounds who were uncomfortable with bodies in general) but most men I know rather like it.

As Boyd MacDonald said, "I'm not just a human being, I'm also a piece of meat, and I expect to be treated like one."

I wasn't sure whether to answer "nothing" -- which is my approach whenever this happens, which, yes, is still too frequently in spite of having age and a flat chest as deterrents -- or encourage the victim to use his uncharacteristic more-powerful status to try to teach a lesson.

Though I'm thinking Joy @19 may have nailed what was really going on.

ECarpenter @ 23 Kudos for quoting the late, great Boyd McDonald.

Just a thought exercise here, but for the guys who like getting cat called (either by other guys or by women), what if the cat caller is unattractive and also much stronger than you and you know that if you respond in any accommodating or pleasant way, they are likely to follow you and escalate the situation? I know everyone likes attention and likes to be desired, but in the "do men mind being cat called" scenarios I've seen, it's always someone fairly attractive and physically less strong or else equally as strong, so the man being cat called is never really in a situation in which he's getting unwanted attention in a scenario that could spin out of his control.

I just wonder how these experiments would be if we took a young lithe gay guy and had him walk down a street where much larger men were sneering at him and talking about his ass and if he responds, they start to follow him or put him in a situation that he has figure out how to exit without a physical escalation. Add a dose of homophobia to it too, since most men cat calling women have a hefty dose of misogyny.

The analogy of a woman simply cat calling a straight man or the same for gay men that are not in a threatening environment or physical differential doesn't hold up for the very reason that the man is still in control of the situation. It can be annoying and offensive and manipulative, yes- that's what harassment is. But it's far less likely to be threatening.

Cami @21: A few years ago at Pride, a busty woman in our marching group had her breasts grabbed by gay men. When she objected, they responded "It's okay, we're gay!" It does happen.

You may not know this, but 13-year old boys have occasionally been known to say stupid things, as their mouth is mostly connected to their dick not their brain. I would just roll my eyes and laugh to myself, or depending on my mood, shake my head and tell him, "You're an idiot."

@27 You're discussing a situation that's completely abnormal. Yes, violence is terrible. But for men, whether or not there is a difference in size and power, violence is just not part of ordinary pick-up behavior. And among men, if someone is unattractive to you and you politely move on, that's that. If they persist and get physical, you can smack their hands and they go away. Stalkers happen, yes, but they're not likely to engage in normal pick-up banter, and don't cloud normal fun objectification.

I think women, given their very different experience of random comments by men in public, find it impossible or nearly impossible to understand how it normally works for men. They seem to immediately skew towards the threat of violent encounters, and that's just not most men's experience.

Now, gay bashers are a totally different thing. Yes, those guys usually start with cat-calls - but they are offensive and violent from the outset, and gay-bashers are simply not in the same category as normal come-ons. Which kind of encounter is happening is instantly obvious, so there's no confusion between them.

@30 That's my entire point. What I was trying to show is that we are comparing apples and oranges with these studies like the one Dan described. As you explained as well. If we were to compare apples to apples, we'd have to design the studies differently.

For example, I dont' thiink it's generally women not understanding why men like this sort of attention. It's men not understanding how women experiencing it differenlty. For example, WoofCandy's comment above saying that women might have "opted out" of some sort of fun thing that men like, as if we were experiencing a similar dynamic and choosing no. We are not having the same experience in the first place.

Is "grass" current terminology? I've never heard it in real life, just in TV shows set in the 70s.

The question and Dan's answer have to do with what people who get catcalls should DO. The comments and my interest have to do with how people who get catcalls FEEL. I'm not sure in this case that differences in feelings are necessarily based on differences in threat level. They may be. I'm not sure. I can say that I (straight female) am deeply belittled and disgusted and unsettled and squicked out by catcalls in a way that goes way beyond any assessment of whether or not I'm in danger. The LW doesn't say that, but I wonder if some of his question stems from some of those feelings that may have been new to him, something along the lines of "I had all these horrible feelings, but when I think about it-- I wasn't actually threatened-- I'm not sure why."

Emma @32: Exactly. When men say, "I'd love to be catcalled!", they completely miss the real nature of male-on-female street harassment, and envision a beautiful woman -- someone they'd want to sleep with -- making the first move. That is NOT analogous in any way. Much closer, as you say, would be a 6'10", wrestler-built gay man shouting "nice ass." And even this doesn't compare; the 6'10" catcalling wrestler would be an anomaly in a straight man's life, not something he'd experienced so regularly he'd developed coping strategies to deal with it.

Fichu @34 makes a good point: Even in situations where there is no threat, it's dehumanising and annoying. And invariably, you don't get the opportunity to respond the way your inner Wonder Woman sees you responding in these situations. Invariably, your actual response -- even if it was to be brave and "holla back" -- falls short of the ball-kicking he deserves. So he wins, and that missed opportunity at micro-justice leaves a residue of resentment. And we hate men just a little bit more.

Gay men absolutely have the capacity to harass women. And it doesn't mean they're not really gay, as some air quotes from other commenters seem to suggest. I've seen gay men grab women's breasts and refuse to stop when the girl protests. I have had an insanely long argument with an otherwise reasonable gay guy about whether he did or did not have the right to grab his friend's breasts after she asked him to stop. (!!)

I think a large part of the reason women respond differently to catcalling is because we are trained to be afraid. I can only recall one incident in my life where I was catcalled, and it wasn't a very bad catcall. I've never been raped or harassed. Yet I've had a fear of men drilled into my brain from a very young age. Women can't leave the house without someone telling them they can be raped. Men aren't raised with this fear, so even when men are harassed and feel violated, they tend to brush it off as unimportant. I think men would be better off if they didn't gaslight themselves.

@36 Why would a guy want to touch a woman's breasts if he has no interest in breasts? Can you imagine an asexual groping people? I think people forget bisexuals exist.

@37 - To be annoying? To show that the groper has power over the gropee? Sexual assault isn't about desire, ffs. What an asinine question.

ASS claims that he doesn't cat-call women, and maybe he doesn't, but millions of men do. ASS suggests that gay men are more aggressive about their overtures, but that's both FUCKING OFFENSIVE and FUCKING NOT TRUE. Gay men absolutely can be obnoxious about it, but no more so than straight men. I'm willing to wager that the overwhelming vast majority of adult women have at some point felt menasced by overt, aggressive pick-up attempts and cat-calls. I see it all the time, and I live and work in a gay bubble, so I can only imagine what it's like outside that bubble.

I continue to maintain that a lot of homophobia is rooted in straight men's fears that gay men will treat them they way they want and too often do treat women. ASS reinforces my belief about that.

I'm not saying that ASS is wrong for feeling uncomfortable about it. I'm saying ASS is a dick for pretending it's not a problem with straight men.

@34: Thank you, Fichu, you captured it perfectly.

Sometimes I don't feel like a "woman," because I'm not constantly afraid of violence or rape. It's ironic, because all kinds of rape have been parts of my life. Yet I don't go through life worrying about it. But catcalling is creepy. It's degrading; sometimes it's meant to degrade. I think that some catcalls are meant as compliments (which does not mean that the recipients appreciate them), but I suspect that more often, they are meant derisively. They can be used to "put a woman in her place," or to humiliate a woman. If she responds by looking at you or smiling at you or saying "thanks," you can have a huge laugh at the pathetic uggo who thought you thought she was pretty enough to catcall "legitimately."

Are people still buying the "rape isn't about sex" thing? It is most certainly about desire. It's also about power, because somethings things are 2 things at the same time. Look it up, most victims are young women. If it was about power why is there such a gender imbalance in victims? It's because most of the people looking for "power" (men) just happen to be looking for power over pretty young women. They're not seeking power over old men, or obese women like myself, which is why I often get left alone and my friends are targeted.

@35 It's entirely possible for a man to love being catcalled himself while understanding fully that the experience is different for women. Not everyone assumes that everyone experiences life the same way, with the same feelings.

And being the recipient of an attempted pickup or catcall is, for most men, not dehumanizing or annoying - it's often a nice boost to one's day, something to mention to one's buddies over a drink. This does NOT mean all men think that women should respond in the same way; again, many adults know that different people respond to similar situations differently.

Seriously, women who assume that the experience of being told they have a nice ass is the same for men as it is for women (or that it should be the same), or that such comments between men often imply threats of violence, are very wide of the mark.

Thanks. When I read the letter, I initially thought I had nothing to say, that the letter had nothing to do with me and that I should bow out of this one. After 2 days, I realized that there was something I could relate to in it and hoped my comment was relevant.

@34

Fichu that makes a lot of sense. Cat calls (when it's just someone shouting something like Nice Ass) are annoying, but yes that's really it. It's only when they are in the larger context of threat or humiliation that they are worse. But also I'd say when someone is rude when you ignore them (calling you a bitch or a snob for not responding or- the worst for me- when they walk with you and keep talking even though you are ignoring them) even if I'm in no danger (broad daylight, lots of people around) then I'm infuriated by this. It's the assumption that I'm obligated to respond because some random weirdo wants me to acknowledge him that infuriates me, and then there is also the fact that if you do respond- politely or aggressively- it escalates: either I have to stop what I'm doing to have a conversation or I have to get into a shouting match. There's just no way to be left alone. So I'm in a no-win situation. We've talked about this before and I know experiences vary based primarily on where you live and how much time you spend outside walking about in public, etc, but my point is that your comment about feelings and actions will change in different contexts and for different people (as you say) so... What I wonder about this guy with that in mind is if the fact that he is being cat called by a child is what is so troubling to him about it. I mean, it does put him in a no-win situation similar to the one I described. He is particularly creeped out by a young but non threatening teenager making sexual comments to him (and I think that's understandable in itself, but maybe there are even more reasons for that discomfort), and then he doesn't know what to DO. Keep walking and ignore is the obvious answer here because in this situation the teen is unlikely to follow up, but I do understanding the feeling of wanting to express your discomfort. If he responds in any polite sort of way, that's really shady as this is an underage teen. If he responds in any aggressive sort of way, that's also shady as this is an underage teen. If he lectures the kid, he's going to come across as an idiot. Or it could be that he just doesn't like the feeling of "losing face" and teens are experts and figuring out how to push adults' buttons that way, ha ha.

Fichu and BDF- just re-read my comment above, and if it sounded like I was disagreeing, I wasn't. I was wholeheartedly agreeing- your words broadened my perception a bit and I was processing out loud. Fascinating stuff, thanks.

@37 Last Comment This changes wildly depending on where people live and what sort of lifestyle they have. I'm basically the opposite of you- I grew up around great men and no one drilled any fear of anything into my head. In fact I was well into adulthood before I realized that most of my female friends were scared to do the sorts of things that I do regularly (going out alone at night, taking long trips by myself, public transport, outdoor sports trips alone- backpacking etc). Nonetheless, yes I have faced plenty of harassment and attempted violence from men (in some places I've lived the street harassment happens relentlessly, several times a day) and worked with women and girls who have suffered much worse than that. So while there might be women who've grown up in mostly safe places or had a more narrow range of experiences/lifestyles that they've not been exposed to these things, it's just not true that it's all a result of society cramming fears into someone's mind though I suppose that probably IS true of people in certain demographics.

As for the conflict about rape being about control and not sex, I have little patience for that dispute. It's like the nature vs nurture dispute. Obviously the answer is that rape is about both- and in some situations it's more the one than the other. And yes, sometimes gay men will sexually harass women. Sometimes women will sexually harass women. Sometimes women will sexually harass men. Sexual harassment is a thing- it happens in all sorts of environments and for all sorts of reasons. When we talk about general societal problems though, we tend to look at the more common issues that do most damage.

@42 Carpenter I was responding within the context of the thread to statements raised here. I don't disagree with anything you said here nor did I mean to suggest that women are making assumptions about what a man experiences. In fact, like you, I was trying to point out the differences. If there is any confusion between us, it's that you are talking about having a different response or a different attitude (or feeling about being catcalled) which is fine and well. But what you don't mention (and maybe it was implied) and what I'm trying to point out is that it's not just the response/feelings that's different. It's the actual situation that's different- the intent, the possibilities for outcomes of various responses, etc. I wasn't denying any of the things you say at all, just pointing out that when men and women (usually) talk about being catcalled, they are describing two totally different experiences, not two different responses to the same experience.

I think this we are missing a significant safety issue for the 13yo. Remember, 13 is the same age as Emmett Till, who was lynched, tortured, and murdered for catcalling a white woman. Similarly, many young gay men have been bashed and murdered for flirting with the wrong man. If it was me, I would say 'hey, it really is not safe for you to go around catcalling guys. Young men have been tortured and murdered for less. We live in a very homophobic world, and I can tell you, that if you say that to the wrong person, you may be in a world of hurt. Please be careful out there.' I am a former Social Worker, and I would think that something is going on for this kid that is bigger than an issue of catcalling- possibly either he was sexualized early or is engaging in sex work either through necessity or coersion.

The poll is flawed. There's no option for saying it's inappropriate without calling the kid a little shit. One of the options should be;
"Listen, Kid, it's not cool to say things like that to perfect strangers. It's also not necessarily safe...for you. Now, run along!"

I think There's a real difference in the way men and women respond to catcalling. It did happen to me before I transitioned, but a) I barely noticed it and b) when I did realize what was going on I found it vaguely amusing, and generally thought it made the guy look both adorable, and pittiful. A few times things did escalate beyond "oh, Isn't he a cute little mess, wish I could help him out" but I had no trouble ending it, possibly because my responses looked a lot like "are you ok? Do you need some help?"

In any case I think a kind "You really shouldn't say stuff like that, kid" would probably be what I would do....

Also, I wish I had your problems. My ass is just... wide.

BDF @ 35 - "When men say, "I'd love to be catcalled!", they completely miss the real nature of male-on-female street harassment"

No, we don't; we're talking from our point of view, that's all. It's rather bizarre in my opinion to think that everything men say has to take into consideration how women feel. (ECarpenter's comment @42 is pretty spot-on.)

Last @ 37 - "Men aren't raised with this fear, so even when men are harassed and feel violated, they tend to brush it off as unimportant."

At the risk of sounding sexist, I'd say you're thinking like a woman there. You do realize that men aren't raised with this fear, but you fail to see the impact that this can have on your whole mindset for the rest of your life. In other words, barring some traumatic experience at some point in their life (actual sexual assault, for instance), it doesn't even occur to most men that catcalls directed at them can even represent a threat of sexual assault. They do not feel violated. It really is unimportant to them - unless they see it as en ego boost. (There are, of course, exceptions.)

For example, I received a few unsollicited "compliments" last Saturday at Pride, some of them from individuals I would rather never meet or in ways that I find pathetic or potentially offensive (I do not like strangers to grab my arm, even in a "friendly" way). I said "thanks" and walked past, and that was the end of the story. If it weren't for this debate here, I would never have thought about it again. I truly did not feel threatened.

And I say that as a thin, pretty physically powerless guy who could never win a fight with an assailant, who was the victim of abundant bullying as a child/teen, and the subject of plenty of unwanted attention from bigger, older men in his hitchhiking youth (it's not easy walking away when you're in a car doing 120 km/hr on a highway). But still, my attitude was always that it wasn't really that big a deal and that I'd manage to get out of it - and perhaps because of that, I always did (and it never put me off hitchhiking, either). Fear actually is your worst enemy, I always say.

"I think men would be better off if they didn't gaslight themselves."

About what exactly? Are you implying that we should share this fear of men? I think not.

I'm sure many men do share our fear of men Ricardo. After having abusive violent fathers many men would be wary, just as women are.

@50 I'm afraid of other men when walking down the street. But I'm not worried about being catcalled, I'm worried about being shot for not knowing the right answer to 'where i'm from' or being mugged. The crazy thing is, there is a limit to how often you can look over your shoulder. Once max, and it can't be too suspicious. Tough street dudes know fear when they see it, and people who are afraid make easy targets. So you have let someone know that you see them without going out of your way to see them. It's a complicated dance.

@49 I mean, I specified when they are harassed and feel violated. If men don't feel nothing is wrong when they are catcalled, they don't have to consider it harassment or feel violated. I was talking about instances where men actually do feel bad (not just from catcalling but other actions) but minimize it. You have to remember "catcalling" covers a wide variety of actions, from an unsolicited compliment, to stalking, verbal humiliation, and other creepy behavior. Like, there's a difference between a guy saying "hey beautiful" while maintaining a normal distance and a guy getting right in your face and asking you if the carpet matches the drapes.

As an example, I was in an online community where a woman often did creepy things like obsess over men, ask for shirtless pics of them, and even make sexual offers. I noticed it made some men uncomfortable but they did not want to speak up about it, and I think it's because our culture doesn't prepare men to be targets. Some guys have told me they are creeped out but don't want to say it publicly. It's not just men with a special history of abuse who can be creeped out. One of them was a former marine with no history of abuse I know of. Of course this doesn't apply if the men involved genuinely don't feel creeped out.

I'm not saying men should be trained to be paranoid or perceive everything as a threat, but I think men need to be aware that they can be violated also and they don't have to put up with it and tough it out. Women have the same problem but for a different reason, because women are often socialized to be compliant and polite even when they know something is wrong.

The first commenter pretty much nailed it. "Are you okay? Do you need help?" But then, how do you help if he says he does need help? What do you do? First, if he really is a minor, call children's services in your area, or 1-866-END-HARM (remember the 866 part, 800 takes you to a very different service!) This is a number to report child abuse or neglect. Call the police, if needed - get them out and doing something positive with their time. Or, if the kid is super systems aversive, call 2-1-1 for help locating resources such as shelter, housing, food, etc.

@51, take note of the other is what a woman would do too. Depending on the circumstances, catcalling can be sweet( a cute boy calls out to a girl, 'hey beautiful', with a respectful attitude), to being stalked down the street by some creep demanding you respond, a woman will adjust her response and behaviour accordingly.
I don't know if I was reared to fear men, my dad was a lovely man then the priests were a worry the boys on the ferry were cute and the strange dude with his dick hanging out in the street doorway was confusing. All up an unpredictable group, is what I learnt about men.

Like EmmaLiz @45, I grew up with no ingrained fear of men. I know enough to feel slightly cautious when groups of three or more young men are milling around on the street, but it otherwise doesn't much occur to me to be afraid. I think this may have made me more vulnerable once or twice, because I wasn't thinking defensively, but I think it's also made me carry myself without fear, and I bet in the long run that's been more helpful--that whole "don't look like a victim" thing. But this is all just luck, where I grew up, the attitudes and environment there (as another example, hitchhiking was still pretty common when/where I grew up).

I know there are plenty of real reasons for fear, all around. But I think we also have an exaggerated view of their probability, since we hear on the news about bad things that happen, and that gives you the fear without the sense of likelihood. (This is true across the board, and not specifically about sexual harassment fears.) I think that's too bad.

@ 50 - But I did have an abusive father, Lava (like most people around me at the time, I guess). I'd come home from school after being beaten up by my bullies and I'd get an additional beating for not having stood up to them (as if it were logical to expect a child to defend himself against six of his bigger peers).

That still didn't change the fact that I was socialized as a man, which meant that the world was supposed to be my oyster, whereas the girls were told that basically anything they did could have very serious consequences (and those were the days when feminism was strong and women were empowered and took self-defense classes! I can only imagine how it was before for them).

I think this difference in one's fundamental outlook makes a huge difference in one's later life. On the whole, I would say that the great majority of men I know are self-assured way beyond what their actual capacities justify, whereas it's totally the opposite with women. It makes for two totally different ways of experiencing not just catcalling, as EmmaLiz said @ 45, but life in general.

Last @ 52 - So maybe guys are starting to be able to articulate their feelings, then. 99% of the guys I know would simply tell a woman who creeps them out to fuck off, or cut off all contact with her. Especially if they're not prepared to be targets. They just take the quickest, easiest way out. And they're more puzzled than actually creeped out.

Re: "It's rather bizarre in my opinion to think that everything men say has to take into consideration how women feel."

It IS bizarre, but, unfortunately, we live in a culture that bizarrely assumes that what men say is the standard for all people.

Ideally, you shouldn’t have to take how women feel into consideration, but that’s not world we live in. As a man, you speak for women, whether you like it or not. So you should not be surprised or find it weird that some women feel your statements invalidate their experience, or that some women would like you to use your power to recognize and normalize their experience, too. This is especially true when you’re making comments about an issue that matters a great deal to many women.

Both men and women suffer under the burden of sexism. For men, it means, whether they like it not, they speak for women. You’re never going to stop people from seeing it that way. How you choose to deal with this is up to you. But you can’t choose a reality in which everything a man says doesn’t automatically take women into consideration. For a long time, we used “he” to refer to all people, not just men. This mindset has not changed significantly, even though the words have. As long as we’re part of a society that accepts this, even if certain individuals don’t, we can’t avoid the consequences.

This is why feminism is important for people of all genders. No one is really free. We’re all in a pitiful situation.

I normally think of a catcall as something yelled by a man working at a construction site to a woman who's walking on the sidewalk next to the site. By extension, a catcall is something yelled over a distance that might be phrased as a compliment but which all parties understand as an insult: "Hey babeee!" or "Smile!" or the classic wolf whistle. That's different from a pick-up line in a bar, a compliment delivered to a new acquaintance at a party, a pass. I'd say it's different from what the original LW wrote about to Dan-- though I admit to not being sure on that one. The guy calling out "want me summa that" might pretend deniability when he's called on his bad behavior, but it's hard to imagine he really doesn't know he's being insulting. This is why I'm amused when a man-pig acts all angry surprised when he's the target of a gay come-on. As someone above stated, he's shocked to the point of violence when a man treats him the way he's been treating women. (Not the LW. His question to Dan was reasonable.)

@58 bowie; while your point is true, some are in a more pitiful situation than others. Capitalism squeezes us all.
Ricardo@57, I remember a lover saying that to me, about himself, when I was twenty five.
'the world is my oyster'. Yes the structures and benefits of Patriarchy informs all our social etc transactions. Within that, I'd say a lot of men stay wary of other men. Like women, they can discern if the catcalling is menacing or not.
It doesn't happen to men at the level it happens to women. And it doesn't occur with the same assumptions.

Bowie @ 58 - "As a man, you speak for women, whether you like it or not."

Wrong.

As a gay men, when I talk about sexual matters, I do not speak for women. Not. At. All. And it has nothing to do with whether I like it or not: it's a simple matter of logic. My sex life and experience being limited to man-on-man/men contacts, nothing I say can be construed so as to apply to women in any way. (If a woman, as an individual, can find something that she recognizes and/or identifies with in what I say, that's another matter entirely - I am not speaking for her; we just happen to have similar experiences of men.)

"some women would like you to use your power to recognize and normalize their experience, too"

I find this statement particularly sexist and offensive to women. You're basically denying women's agency. Implying that a woman would need a man to normalize her experience is akin to saying that she is not a fully functioning human being. What's next? A man to vote on her behalf so as to normalize her political beliefs?

This is thoroughly appalling.

Following from 61, I must add that the fact that I personally find that statement particularly sexist and offensive to women does not in any way mean that women should or will be offended by it; they have their own brain, they don't need me to tell them how to feel.

I agree with @21. I would tell the kid it is inappropriate and dangerous, without putting him down. Yes, it might invite an argument, the kid is 13. You can still walk away, you don't have to continue the argument. I think, as a society, we have a responsibility to let kids know when they behaving inappropriately and when they may be in danger, ESPECIALLY if parents aren't around. The whole it takes a village thing. It isn't as if kids can have too many people who care about them and look out for them, and you never know when something you say or do could have a positive effect. Maybe the kid argues in the moment, but takes it to heart. Maybe he doesn't, some people can't be helped, but at least you took the time to offer guidance. Which is something a 13 yr old hanging out in the street and catcalling strangers is obviously lacking.

@45 Thanks for the clarification. I agree that the situation is different. Men's response to what they find attractive is different, men's physicality with each other is different, and men's attitudes about other men are different from their attitudes about women.

So yes, when men catcall or hit on other men, the whole meaning of the interaction is very different from when men catcall or hit on women. Sorry I wasn't clearer about that. I did not mean to imply that only women's responses were different, which is obviously not the case.

Ricardo @62: obviously I didn't read bowie@58 closely enough. Men speaking for women, in the west, does he mean? Not in my experience. No man has ever spoken for me since I've gained maturity.
In many countries, this is the case and if
men like trump and pence keep getting power, some western women will continue to find their autonomy eroded.
I see a big new feminist wave is hitting, slowly, carefully, because so many western men seem to have reverted to primitive impulses. Perhaps they see how in many cultures the men control the women and god damn doesn't that look more like how it should be? None of this co parenting bull, no more back chatting wife, flirting with the world because she feels whole.

I would have gone with the lecture, simply because that probably would have mortified the kid more than any 'fuck off' response, and because at 13 kids still need advice and guidance. So, yeah, woulda gone something like "you know, that's really not appropriate. Street harassment isn't okay, no matter who's doing it."

Lava @ 65 - What's more patriarchal than saying men should speak for women, right? And how are we ever going to discuss the difference in viewpoint between the sexes on anything (as is the case here) if men have to speak for women every time?

I sure do hope there is a big new feminist wave. The world needs it, and it needs it fast. The Handmaid's Tale seems to be a big hit on Netflix, but we are inching closer and closer to Gilead in real life.

Traffic@66 ~ The way I see it, 13-year old boys are accomplished at letting lectures go in one ear and out the other. But they desperately want approval, especially from the older boys/guys. A sharp, "You're a fucking idiot," would probably cut deeoer and get a "Well, I don't want to get that reaction again," in the long run. Or maybe not. Cluelessness runs deep at that age.

I've always been flattered when gay men or (all too rarely) straight women have complemented me in objectifying ways, so I might have said thanks, but this situation strikes me as dangerous to the kid and is probably a sign that he was prostituting himself.

So, if I was really on my game, may answer would have been "Thanks, but it's kind of dangerous to go around complementing random guys like that. Do you need any help?"

But in real life, I don't think that fast, so I'd probably stop at thanks.