Savage Love Jun 28, 2017 at 4:00 am

The Music Box

Comments

105
Right. Not fixed then. More emails to the webMaster.
Sorry to hear you didn't deck the guy who grabbed your arse Fan. Play is consensual, and you never gave that guy permission.
106
BiDanFan: I can't see how "I don't like that word" is not an accurate paraphrase of "My beef is with the term 'objectification'."

I wrote several paragraphs on the subject, and this is all you took away? Disappointing.
107
BDF @ 101 - As a young hitchhiker, I was picked up a few times by guys who'd pull out their dick the second I was in no position to say "no" (i.e. as soon as we were on the highway). With one exception, they all wore wedding bands. Obviously, I was just an object to them, but I never felt personally objectified as such: they weren't really doing this to me, I just happened to be the first young hitchhicker they'd come across that day.

They were (IMO) just pathetic excuses for human beings, so frustrated by years of hiding their sexuality that they had totally lost their capacity to perceive anyone else as more than an object - including their wife, who was to them nothing but a façade to preserve their "social respectability" (the illusion of heterosexuality).

I had two hypothesis: either their social/sexual/emotional development had stopped in their teens, or the years of frustration had totally dehumanized them, and they were therefore unable to see others as humans. They only deserved contempt in my eyes - and I made sure they understood that's how I felt. But I never had the feeling that it had anything to do with me, so it never affected me on a deeper level. I just saw it as a learning experience: some people are fucked up, and you've got to learn how to get out of those situations.

And, as I quickly realized, they weren't the really dangerous ones - those didn't pull out their dick, they just left the highway for a secluded road when they thought you weren't paying much attention.
108
@BiDanFan: I can't see how "I don't like that word" is not an accurate paraphrase of "My beef is with the term 'objectification'."

I wrote several paragraphs on the subject. The fact that this is all you took away is disappointing.
109
That sounds really scary Ricardo. Like a lot of other things, objectification occurs on a spectrum. From some mild form to rape to murder. Isn't murder the ultimate objectification.
110
@101 BiDanFan (re your thread with @105 LavaGirl): I'm sorry that happened to you!
111
Comments are working again?
112
@WoofCandy: I think your misogyny* is the problem, and I suspect your desires were labeled as objectifying by past partners because, as you expressed them, they were. If you tried to act on them without consent or discussed them in ways that's didn't take your partner's potential dis/interest into account, that was indeed objectifying: you were treating your partner as a vehicle for your own sexual enjoyment without treating her as a person, taking her desires and preferences into account. "Objectification" has a pretty clear meaning, given upthread, and it seems less like you have a problem with the concept or term and more like you disagree that a given behavior doesn't treat a partner like a person with agency or that doing so should be seen as bad. (An aside about your rationalization concerning your attraction to humans: that's not universal, so any particular person has no reason to think you're primarily attracted to humans, and it's also irrelevant, since humans have a long history of recognizing other humans as human while still denying them agency or self determination, as with incarceration, rape, slavery, non-consensual medical experimentation, labor exploitation, mass population displacement, etc.)

As you bitterly note, you always had the option to not date people who aren't into the sex acts you like - perhaps the core problem was you maintaining a relationship pressuring a partner to do something she didn't like instead of recognizing that the disinterest in the kinds of sex you like was a deal-breaker for you and breaking up. That's on you, and maybe a little bit on the specific people who were advocating what sounds like sex-negative seperatist feminism that you internalized, but they're not representative of feminists generally (academic or otherwise, and weren't even then) or women generally, and your continued refusal to recognize that some 30 years later points to willful ignorance motivated by misogyny.

*This perception is taken from your previous commenting here in addition to this specific thread. For one example from this thread, "objectification" is gender-neutral, so your insistence that it's sexist - which is impossible with respect to men in the first place, because sexism is systemic and men are not marginalized systemically on the basis of sex in any existing Anglophone culture; speaking of labels, "misandrist" would work better here, though the term and concept are neither in reality - belies an underlying hostility toward women. You're also not engaging in good faith; following BiDanFan's last response, which very much did engage with the points you made, you went for a snide, dismissive, dishonest retort. Your problem isn't other people, it's you, that you behave in unkind ways and react to others' objections with hostility. Your gendered biases are on full display throughout (this might be the most ridiculous example from this thread: "It's a vague, misleading, and denigrating metaphor for male sexuality that was dreamed up in academia by people who have no firsthand knowledge of said desire (and I'm guessing little secondhand knowledge either)."), your bitterness over your dating tribulations when you were younger is toxic, and your gender essentialism is retrograde to the point of absurdity, though that goes along with the 30-plus years of feminist theory and practice you've apparently missed. For your own sake and that of others, I think it would be hugely valuable if you found a way to let go of your resentment of the hypothetical missed opportunities of your younger self's dating life, as well as taking responsibility for the effects of your own behavior, and properly placing blame on the specific people who wronged you, to whatever extent they did, rather than generalizing individuals as representative of a large, varied group.
113
Lava @ 109 - But the point is that it isn't scary. War is scary. Gang rapes are scary. A GOP government is scary. Pathetic pieces of shit trying to pressure a young twink (even though the term wasn't in use in those days) into witnessing or participating in a sex act is just that, pathetic. (One mention of their wife and they would cower and drop me off where I told them to - which is why I made a habit of noticing wedding bands and other such telling details.) You just have to keep your wits about you and you're fine. The main thing is to realize beforehand that not all humans are trustworthy (but if you had an abusive parent, as we discussed earlier, or were bullied as a child, you should know that already).

But mostly, and I realize it wasn't obvious at all, I meant to say that there's a difference between someone objectifying you and you feeling objectified (and affected by that objectification). If your baseline position is that there's something wrong with the objectifier, not with you, their objectifying you is then no more than one of the weird things that weird people can do. NBD, such behaviour abounds in our world. All you need is to find a way out of the situation before it gets out of hand. And that's usually not too difficult... if you keep your wits about you.
114
@107 Ricardo: How on Earth did I manage to catch BiDanFan's heart-wrenching shared story and miss yours (I guess the continued hidden comment glitches didn't help)? I'm sorry to read about what you experienced, but am glad to know that you were able to forge onward nonetheless. Gut feelings and resiliency have been, along with my beloved folks and sweet little mid 70's VW, among my biggest bailer-outers.
Being objectified is indeed, scary. I am reminded of feeling "watched" when I first checked into my one and only shore command during my 4-year enlisted stint in the U.S. Navy. Females, military or civilian government employee (GS-5, GS-6, etc.) were strictly support staff 9i.e. yeomen, supply clerks, like me, etc.) in predominantly a macho-male training environment.
115
Arrghh! Where is my new post? Not again...?!
Ricardo @100 and @107: Being viewed as a piece of meat----ig. Not fun for me, but it sounds like (at least with your younger guys, anyway) you had more control of your situation than I did in mine.

116
Testing, testing...1-2-3.....testing....??
This may be a sign that Griz needs to go to bed.
Goodnight, everybody, and Happy July 4th to all celebrating.
117
Ricardo @ 107
Not sure where you were hitchhiking, but it seems to me that such proposals/impositions are closely related to geography and culture.

My own experience goes to my native country where it was very common at the time, and while in the UK in the early-mid 1980’s.
This was the first place I was “proposed,” and even that was very politely done and handled.
In praise of boiled cabbage eaters, not to mention whiskey distillers and Glasgow Celtics fans, it should be mentioned that women driving on their own were also picking me up at the time. for nothing but a friendly act they felt safe to do.
That said, a friend of a friend was proposed/possibly forced in East Germany at the previous summer.

Coming out is not always as easy as it seems, and when oppressed people have to maintain secrecy it can get very ugly.
I can still share your sentiment that the more of all shades come out the easier it will be to all involved.

Lava @ 109
Very sadly, murder often follows where after the fact guilt is prevalent. I suspect the prime time sex workers are prone to violent attacks of any nature is right after ejaculation,once the guilt creeps in.
118
Woof @108: As disappointing as the fact that all you took away from my several posts in which I attempted to explain what objectification is and why some of the women in your life were so on guard against it, was an ill-advised use of quotation marks?

Do read John's post; as he's male, perhaps you'll employ better attempts at reading comprehension instead of writing someone off as a "sexist." (Thank you, John, for the timely #notallmen.)

Ricardo @107: I'm sorry, but not surprised, that you had those experiences. I too relied on hitchhiking to get to work at some points of my impoverished young adulthood; I guess I was lucky to not experience situations like you did. I still think there is a difference of degree where two physical equals (ie men) are involved, versus when the predator outweighs the prey by a factor of two, most of which is muscle mass. As a smaller example of the (physically) weaker sex, I've always been aware that pretty much any man who wanted to overpower me would easily be able to. And I've had proof of that at age 19.

Anyone who wants sympathy for having been slut-shamed, but is not able to offer sympathy to those who have been raped, trafficked, sexually harassed, groped, flashed, catcalled, or any of the other indignities of abuse along the spectrum Lava referred to, is highly unlikely to get it. Just saying.
119
CMD @ 107 - Yes, I'd say your analysis is correct. In Europe, I received several proposals, but as you say, it was politely done and handled. And women driving on their own would pick me up too, something I hadn't experienced ever in North America!

Griz @ 114 - "I'm sorry to read about what you experienced,"

Don't be. It did wonders for my self-confidence. After that, I felt (and was) prepared to handle pretty much anything without losing my cool, which was rather helpful when I had to deal with possibly violent drunkards and drug addicts in my workplace later on.

BDF @ 118 - But as a smaller example of the supposedly* (physically) stronger sex, I too have always been aware that pretty much any man who wanted to overpower me would easily be able to (the events I mentioned occurred when I was between the ages of 17 and 22. Those guys were in their late 30s to early 50s). That's why I always took precautions, i.e., finding things I could use against them verbally, such as their being married, since the only way I've ever been able to defend myself is verbally, not physically.

* I say "supposedly" because I would get beat up by girls as a child/pre-teen. Imagine the taunting that followed by all the other boys! It makes me smile now, but it sure didn't in those days.
120
These delayed posts are really annoying! By the time it shows up the point I was hoping to make feels moot.
Signing off from SL until we get a new column and a blank slate for commenting.
121
@BiDanFan: an ill-advised use of quotation marks?

It's more the ridiculously superficial summary of my point that came between the quotation marks and that showed, pretty clearly, that you're unwilling or unable to consider what I'm saying.

better attempts at reading comprehension

This jab might make sense if I'd misrepresented your arguments. As it stands, however, you have no idea what I've comprehended, so it's just another random and meaningless internet insult, not unlike John's bizarre attempt to write my biography based on nothing but his own prejudices.
122
It's true Fan, the physical difference in size between men and women is a big part of fear coming in, though the guy could always be carrying a gun.
Ricardo, you sure do share some wild stories. I never hitch hiked. It's always been too dangerous for women.
123
@119 Ricardo: I'm glad to read that there was good outcome from your experiences. Hugs, positrons, VW beeps, and Kudos!
Strange how some of our worst past ordeals and most awkward of situations often make many of us that much stronger and more resilient. Looking back upon the day of my own beloved mother's memorial service, my older sister looked at me and cried, "Oh, god, how do you stay so calm?!" She has led an infinitely more sheltered life than I have (which I won't go into, here; I have told my story to exhaustion and don't want to be redundant--but you get what I mean). If our equally beloved, recently widowered father hadn't been standing right there at the time, I would have been highly tempted to have told my older sister exactly why, but to what end? I'm just glad and grateful to find peace, living with those I love, following my passion. My surviving sibs are adults (one can only hope)----they can figure it out.
124
This message will self-destruct in ten seconds......ten...nine...eight..even..six.....
125
WoofCandy, you take nothing from John's post?

What exactly is the problem? Men and women con and objectify each other all the time. Every time I admire a young man's toned arms, it's a form of objectification. A harmless one, as I have no intention of imposing myself into that person's orbit.
In love, cmon, the stories we tell each other. You got to sift thru the crap to find authentic relationships or you don't bother. And none of us will offer a real intimacy if the other objectifies us. So talking about it, helps further understanding, no? We all carry wounds from love, you're not Robinson Crusoe there, as my uncle used to say.
126
Well gee Woof, it seems odd that a neutral third party could accurately read "You're also not engaging in good faith; following BiDanFan's last response, which very much did engage with the points you made, you went for a snide, dismissive, dishonest retort" into our conversation, but you somehow completely missed the fact that I did in fact listen to and sympathise with what you were saying. "Willing and able to consider what you were saying" is not a synonym, nor a prerequisite, for agreeing with what you were saying -- it seems nothing short of "yes Mr Man, of course you're right, we women will stop talking about objectification forevermore, we did indeed make it up for no reason other to shame men, you've got us! Our feelings about how men treat us don't matter at all" would have satisfied you.

And that is not accurate, so I did not say it.

I was, as it seems, misguidedly sympathetic. Upon reading John's post, he absolutely nailed it. You were objectifying women; that's why multiple women over the course of your life told you so. You chose not to listen. Like you chose not to listen to me, when I heard and sympathised with your perspective. You've missed your chance for that to ever happen again.

Lava @122: Yes, that is true too. When I was attacked at 19, the rapist claimed to have a knife -- though I never saw it. He didn't need it to overpower me, wrestle me to the ground, and hold me down with his hand covering my mouth so that I couldn't breathe. The only way I was able to defend myself was involuntary vaginismus, plus the element of surprise. I took advantage of his fumbling, pushed him off me and ran like hell. I wouldn't have done that if I'd seen a knife.
127
I find it interesting and kind of hilarious that BiDanFan proposes her own personal made up definition of objectification - one that is quite divorced from the actual definition - and suddenly others jump in and pretend that this is how they've always understood the term as well. If anything, this thread is a rather revealing case study in the social psychology of group think.

Clearly a little brush up on feminist theory is in order. Wikipedia offers a serviceable summary of the term's meaning and history.

"Sexual objectification is the act of treating a person as a mere instrument of sexual pleasure."

"Female sexual objectification by a male involves a woman being viewed primarily as an object of male sexual desire, rather than as a whole person. Although opinions differ as to which situations are objectionable, some feminists see objectification of women taking place in the sexually oriented depictions of women in advertising and media, women being portrayed as weak or submissive through pornography, images in more mainstream media such as advertising and art, stripping and prostitution, ..."

Please note there is not a single mention of the word "consent" in the entire article. Indeed, the concept of consent is entirely orthogonal to objectification. As the article points out:

"Some social commentators argue that some modern women objectify themselves as an expression of their empowerment."

Of course, women can and sometimes do consent to being objectified, enthusiastically in the case of submissives who get off on being used (consensually) by a dominant male.

@BiDanFan, @John - I think you'd benefit from reading the entire article. If you're going to position yourself as an authority on feminism, you'd benefit from more reading in general.
128
Brush up on feminist theory. You mean you've found one, woofcandy? There is no authoritative " feminist therory," shows how much you know about feminism. There's lots of writings where different women put forward their theories, and ideas. No big panel of feminists somewhere on earth deciding on what feminism is.
I didn't jump on board with any body else's interpretation of what objectification means, sorry bud, my own understanding of the term is what I put forward.
My suggestion. Get a hold of that nasty vindictive part of yourself which is exposed when critized, not a lot of good women will stay around a man who behaves like that.

129
@122 LavaGirl: Agreed, and my #1 reason for not hitchhiking--too dangerous. And too close for comfort: I also grew up in a community where psychopathic serial killer, Ted Bundy claimed one of his 48 victims--while just passing through at the time. He had a fixation for girls with long dark hair and Volkswagens, and drove a hard top Beetle. Brrr!
@126: BiDanFan: I'm sorry you experienced that at 19! Even more horrifying if your attacker had a knife or a gun. I'm glad you managed to get away from that creep.
130
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