Savage Love Sep 19, 2017 at 5:15 pm

Dicks Deluxe

Comments

101
C'mon guys. Undead has apologised.

Here we go with the bull around the comments. Time to write the at risk youth tech heads, again.

There are resources out there for men, WoofCandy and Sportlandia. You are using one now. Dan is a warm hearted man who shares his feelings and finds empathy when others share theirs. Look on fb for groups. I read some dads' pages and have been heartened by all these men, many of them single fathers, being so full with love for their families. They ask about their women to each other.
There are therapists, etc .
The thing about feelings is, as soon as one expresses them in a negative way, there will be a barrier. There's a sudden burst of self satisfaction, but, the other side has turned off.
Learning to express one's feelings has to engage the mind. Check what it is you are feeling alone, self investigation. Important to express or just some little irritation. If it's important to express, then one needs to think thru how to express it. The words to use so the other person will hear one.
Feelings can be like runaway trains, which one do you follow.
I'm sorry men were blocked, are blocked culturally from close intimacies with each other.
First off, the problem needs to be recognised. Intimacy socialization of the males in our society is damaging to their hearts. Own it and then go forth and crash it down. Just not with anger, the go to male feeling.
Anger, in the Buddhist tradition is the worst affliction of the mind. Yes we feel it and for so many times it is justified. It's just not effective for intimacy. The truth of anger can be expressed, without the force and with more empathetic language. Anger bypasses that part,the keeping empathy with the other.
I put up with much anger round me and in me, during my life, now, I live in an anger free zone, mostly. My sons arrive and disapear, and each time they arrive, I've got to close down some of their habituated bossy behaviours.
It's tedious.

102
Cool, it came straight up. Thank you Web Master.
103
And, that one didn't.
104
Woof@100 ~ ...When men (the few that are left) speak here, you dream up the worst possible interpretation you can imagine, make up a story about them that fits some stereotype you read in a tabloid, label it "misogyny", and then point to your made up story as an excuse to bully and harass them...

Never been bullied or harassed here and I am the manliest of all men. ;-)
105
@69 Mtn Beaver: Congratulations on scoring this week's lucky number!!
106
@45 undead ayn rand: Dick's Deluxe Burger. I lived in Ballard 20-some years ago---and stopping on Queen Anne takes me back. Good grief, now I want a Dick's Deluxe Burger and fries---which would totally blow my gluten-free-low-carb-avoid-sugar-and-anything-deep-fat-fried diet, and my naturopath would have a total shit fit.
Sadly from my own over-consumption way back when, my fast food days are definitely over nowadays. Kudos to you (undead), Dan, and everyone else, however who can still go out and scarf a Dick's Deluxe. Enjoy--and with no guilt.
107
Uh-oh! Testing... testing....?
108
RE CMD

It's because the word "dick" has come to have two separate meanings- one the penis and the other to mean a rude person. Just like the word "asshole" likewise (your butt, a rude person) just like the word "bitch" (a female dog, a rude person) and, like the word 'bitch' it had its origins as a particularly gendered slur, it's moved beyond that. So you can tell a man to stop bitching w/o references women just like you can tell a woman she's doing something that's a dick move without referencing women. Sort of like motherfucker- it just means someone who is a jerk, not someone who fucks his mom. The insult has been removed from the original insult. But if you called someone a kiddie fucker, you are still definitely insulting them with the original meaning. It used to be more common to call someone a boob to mean an idiot, and like these other words, while it had its origin in a gendered slur, it moved past that until the connotation was mostly lost. I'd say pussy and balls have mostly transitioned as well.

Cunt, in the US, is still used as a mostly gendered slur, not just yet another word for jerk. In the UK it's different- it's already made the transition, as has twat, and I think it's well on its way in the US too. I'd say cocksucker is a good example of this with gay slurs, it's well on its way to being separated from gay slurs though it's not quite there yet so it's still touchy. Faggot is still pretty targeting though- see the difference?

So in my opinion there is nothing particularly more or less acceptable about slurs that reference male body parts than there slurs that reference female body parts. It's just whether or not the slur is still mainly understood to be a gendered slur. And dick mostly is not.
109
Meh. Woof and Sportlandia both sometimes say things that are misogynistic. Undead and I probably say things sometimes that overly blame men. Raindrop is whole other category. Ricardo, CMD, Donny, BDF, Lava, NoWish all seem pretty measured in any gender war type talks. I'm sure there are others, but this is just off the top of my head.

I can see how you might choose to tune out (plenty do) but there is no interpretation based in reality that could claim this forum is an overly feminist or male-attacking place that runs off men. That's just absurd, and it speaks more to your own defensiveness.
110
Sorry meant NoCuteName, not NoWish, ha ha ha. I guess I'm feeling hopeless today.
111
@95 CMD

Yeah I thought about that too. I think it's probably a combination of things. There is taboo- the best insults are really the ones that are actually offensive, not just vulgar, and there is nothing more offensive than taboos. It's why "your breath smells like ass" isn't nearly so bad as "your breath smells like you've been eating your baby daughter's pussy". One is rude. The other is actually offensive for loads of reasons. So I try to imagine what "motherfucker" must've felt like back when it was a fresh enough insult to actually bring the taboo to mind.

So I think in the past, when sex was way more taboo, being fucked was extremely shameful. There's still a lot of that around for both women and men- there are all sorts of power issues and slurs around being the penetrated partner. It implies that the other person is going to get control of your body and use it- there's an element of violence to it too. It's all about macho bullshit and humiliation. Sucks is the same way- you suck or suck off- again the connotation is that it's somehow humiliating to be the penetrated partner and somehow empowering to be the one with the dick.

112
Donny @104: Thank you for pointing out the obvious difference between "men" and "misogynists." To paraphrase a sage observation on a different thread, the difference is that the misogynists don't believe there is a difference.
113
Emma @109: Thank you!
114
EmmaLiz@109, BiDan@112 hit the nail on the head.
115
EL @ 111
Thanks for chiming as well as the honorable mention that preceded.
Seems like we are in agreement on how we got there and how one’s obscenity can be another’s casual use.
That said, I wonder if we’re doing humanity any service by further portraying sex and genitalia in a negative manner.
116
We're all a bit guilty of opposite gender bashing. Man against woman.
Black against White. Arab against Jew. Christian against Muslim. Etc.
The whole story around gender is evolving. I don't react like you do Fan, re Sportlandia and the Woof man. Undead has been on their case, though they are being less aggressive and more heart directed lately.
With all the shit going on, can we try to hear each other. Nobody has a handle on all the angles, and each has something to share and learn.
117
@116 came straight up again too. Mmmm.
Comment one goes missing when page two occurs.
118
True CMD. Treating sex like it's wrong by our language. Yet, it's caught up with deep ambivalences, all of us have been wounded by the opposite sex and the same sex, those words are the anger and hurt.
It is barbaric and pitiful, I agree. I think that's why I have such a strong reaction to the c word. It's a difficult enough word, when it's describing female genitalia and the reproductive system, dark and busy place that is, to have it thrown in ad hoc to describe people, who one despises, I hate that. I no longer think of my sexual self as a c.... They can have that word, it no longer describes cis females, for me. I'm fine thinking of mine as a fanny. Nobody uses that word as an abusive misile. Doesn't have the same scary punch, it'll do.
119
Messy, there's a psychotherapist, her name is Polly-young Eisendrath and she and her late husband, Ed Epstein, developed Dialogue Therapy, to help such couples as you and your crazy making hubby. He's got to see this is a two way street here and really want to work towards a mutual change. This therapy helps a couple to see the destructive patterns which have developed. Takes two to tango and make babies.
If one or both of you don't want this family to go forward together, then please, end this going nowhere story soon.
120
@comments @108-@114 (re EmmaLiz, BiDanFan, DonnyKlicious, and LavaGirl:
Sorry to be late in the game for commenting, but I wanted to give you a shout out and Kudos for a brilliant wrap up of this week's Savage Love: Dicks Deluxe.
I will catch up in this next week's SL.
121
@116 LavaGirl: There really has been a lot of shit going on, globally as well as nationally, and I for one am feeling overwhelmed.
Please email me: I was so happy after practicing (C Haynes and alto flutes tonight, followed by a movie) that I am scared shitless about final grades for my online course in Logic Pro X ( I wish I could have touched base with undead ayn rand, who kindly offered assistance in an earlier SL).
More later.
122
Donny @114: I have to credit Mtn. Beaver who came up with that in response to a question about the difference between nice guys and "Nice Guys."
http://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/09/…

The misogynist, and the man-hater, live in a world where men and women are natural enemies, like lions and gazelles, and are incapable of seeing the world in anything but those terms. The human beings realise that whatever our gender, we all struggle against gendered expectations that hurt and limit us all -- and that these gendered expectations are not the fault of individual men or women. And that individual men and women are more "individual" than "men" or "women." We're all people. We all have tendencies to behave badly where relationships are concerned -- this is not because of our genders, but because human beings are flawed. Blaming a gender for the flaws of an individual is ridiculous, as is pre-judging an individual based on the role they've been cast into by reason of their gender. This is what I react against when I see someone doing it. It's simplistic, childish and unfair -- not to mention distinctly unhelpful. I know loads of straight white cis men who can see this just fine. That's why I have little patience for those who don't.
123
@122 Fan. I don't think people present sexist views intentionally, that's the internalised thinking coming thru. It's a teachable rather than judgemental moment.
124
It also depends on the intensity and how repetitive a position is. Say with Hunter, he just refused to let overt sexism go. Excuse me talking about you guys, I just don't read Sportlandia and the Wolf man as being intractable. I find they both have their centres, strong centres, which is good, and both are interested in the dialogue between men and women. We all throw up missed notes, as we keep looking into this mystery that we all are and can be. So much easier for the animals, instinct determines how it plays.
125
There's all sorts of women out there, i can see how it could be hard to read which way to jump.
Sportlandia's heartfelt point about being judged as either gay or a toxic male if he expresses his feelings, does point to a bind for some straight cis men.
Delivery is key, the words used, owning the feeling not blaming, and conviction. Our feelings are important, we shouldn't ignore them or be blocked from free, empathetic expression.
126
COCK - I also think that shared values and lifestyle are important. But so is sex. Listen to your body; it's ok if you're still popping boners around her, and it's ok if your dick doesn't respond to hers, as long as you're treating each other with respect. I'm glad you're respecting her choices by using her preferred pronouns. Also I second CMD, non op is a vocabulary word that would help you to be respectful here.
What constitutes a "woman" or "man", outside of chromosomes, is a matter of opinion. Draw your own but respect others'. In this respect I disagree with Dan, I think it's just as valid to call contact with similar genitals "homosexual" as it is to call sex between a transwoman and man "heterosexual". Hold your own opinion, just don't go calling other people's opinion "wrong". Opinions can't be right or wrong, they are statements about personal beliefs.

DAMNIT - Your lover wants the freedom to pursue others. You want a monogamous relationship. Only one of you can get what you want if you stay together. I disagree with Dan a little here, too. I don't think that resentments come from sacrifices, or from not getting what you want, then people would have endless resentments just living life. I think they come from a sense of unfairness, from unwilling sacrifices, from feeling trapped or taken for granted or misinformed, and are always directed at a person whose actions you resent. I don't think they come from clear, thoughtful agreements, no matter the price. I think they come from murky agreements and assumptions and ignorance. I think you need to talk about your agreement more, how he feels about monogamy in the short and long term, whether you'd consider an open relationship in the future, and y'all's general relationship expectations, to be sure you're not about to get dumped or cheated on, either resentfully or due to different assumptions.

MESSY - I'm awful. I make promises I don't keep and I don't do the right things to make him feel loved even though I do loving things... I want to stop hurting him but I keep doing it.
Calling yourself awful is advertising low self esteem, it's not helping anyone. Making promises that you don't keep is a sign that you are agreeing to things you don't want to do. Why are you continuing to make agreements with your ex husband? Does this extend to child care agreements.. is the threat of losing custody because you can't keep agreements effective? Can you learn to make only child care agreements, only ones you know you will be able to keep? There is no right way to express love. Right and wrong are typically reserved for moral beliefs, it's right to live life ethically, it's wrong to hurt yourself or other people. You say you hurt your husband. But not how. Even the affair you talk about sounds like it happened AFTER the divorce started.. and the savage love party line is that affairs are all forgivable mistakes anyway. If you divorced because you cheated, stating your mistakes clearly is a good start to learning and growing from them. (You will cheat again in the same circumstances so you need to learn which circumstances to avoid if you want to stop being a cheater.) If you are objectively mistreating/abusing your husband, it's your ethical responsibility (as well as his) to end the relationship. If instead your husband is claiming to be hurt when you don't do what he wants, express love in the particular way he wants etc, you need to assert much better boundaries during this divorce to avoid pointless draining arguments with a control freak. He says you never fought for the relationship? I think relationships are more dependent on respect than fighting. If you have failed to respect each other, that is a valid complaint.
Why can't I change?
You are always changing, every day. But you cannot change some things about yourself, your most deeply held beliefs and desires, you have to discover them and work with them.
127
COCK - I also think that shared values and lifestyle are important. But so is sex. Listen to your body; it's ok if you're still popping boners around her, and it's ok if your dick doesn't respond to hers, as long as you're treating each other with respect. I'm glad you're respecting her choices by using her preferred pronouns. Also I second CMD, non op is a vocabulary word that would help you to be respectful here.
What constitutes a "woman" or "man", outside of chromosomes, is a matter of opinion. Draw your own but respect others'. In this respect I disagree with Dan, I think it's just as valid to call contact with similar genitals "homosexual" as it is to call sex between a transwoman and man "heterosexual". Hold your own opinion, just don't go calling other people's opinion "wrong". Opinions can't be right or wrong, they are statements about personal beliefs.

DAMNIT - Your lover wants the freedom to pursue others. You want a monogamous relationship. Only one of you can get what you want if you stay together. I disagree with Dan a little here, too. I don't think that resentments come from sacrifices, or from not getting what you want, then people would have endless resentments just living life. I think they come from a sense of unfairness, from unwilling sacrifices, from feeling trapped or taken for granted or misinformed, and are always directed at a person whose actions you resent. I don't think they come from clear, thoughtful agreements, no matter the price. I think they come from murky agreements and assumptions and ignorance. I think you need to talk about your agreement more, how he feels about monogamy in the short and long term, whether you'd consider an open relationship in the future, and y'all's general relationship expectations, to be sure you're not about to get dumped or cheated on, either resentfully or due to different assumptions.

MESSY - I'm awful. I make promises I don't keep and I don't do the right things to make him feel loved even though I do loving things... I want to stop hurting him but I keep doing it.
Calling yourself awful is advertising low self esteem, it's not helping anyone. Making promises that you don't keep is a sign that you are agreeing to things you don't want to do. Why are you continuing to make agreements with your ex husband? Does this extend to child care agreements.. is the threat of losing custody because you can't keep agreements effective? Can you learn to make only child care agreements, only ones you know you will be able to keep? There is no right way to express love. Right and wrong are typically reserved for moral beliefs, it's right to live life ethically, it's wrong to hurt yourself or other people. You say you hurt your husband. But not how. Even the affair you talk about sounds like it happened AFTER the divorce started.. and the savage love party line is that affairs are all forgivable mistakes anyway. If you divorced because you cheated, stating your mistakes clearly is a good start to learning and growing from them. (You will cheat again in the same circumstances so you need to learn which circumstances to avoid if you want to stop being a cheater.) If you are objectively mistreating/abusing your husband, it's your ethical responsibility (as well as his) to end the relationship. If instead your husband is claiming to be hurt when you don't do what he wants, express love in the particular way he wants etc, you need to assert much better boundaries during this divorce to avoid pointless draining arguments with a control freak. He says you never fought for the relationship? I think relationships are more dependent on respect than fighting. If you have failed to respect each other, that is a valid complaint.
Why can't I change?
You are always changing, every day. But you cannot change some things about yourself, your most deeply held beliefs and desires, you have to discover them and work with them.
128
@100 WoofCandy

Daily reader, rare poster.... wanted to give you some support since it was a bit lacking. I'm a solid 95% in agreement with you on that post and someone needed to say it. So, thank you for doing so.
129
@125 cont; I'm not suggesting being seen as gay is an issue, people have thought I was gay or bi my whole adult life. Because I don't wear heels or shave. Only makeup I wear is lipstick and I'm a feminist.
It's never been an issue with gay or bi women, unless one is in their space, like a bar, their interest is very low key, and will cease if they get no feedback. Maybe not so easy with straight men who gay men might hit on.
Like with some or many straight women who have felt imposed on sexually by straight men over thousands of years, some straight men getting hit on by gay men, might find it equally uncomfortable.
130
Lava @129: That reminds me of one definition I saw of homophobia: "The fear that gay men will treat you the way you treat women."

I guess this is one aspect of women's reticence to approach other women that is actually beneficial, ha.

I tend to think in terms of misogynist comments, rather than misogynist people. Yes, my first reaction is to try to tactfully point out that what they've said was sexist -- perhaps inadvertently so. But you're correct that there are people like Hunter and Eudaemonic who do not want to listen. The catch-22 with misogynists is that they will not listen to reason when it comes from the mouth of a woman, because of course all women are wrong. A woman can't possibly be making an objective observation, because we just hate men and want to see them suffer at every possible opportunity. That's why Undead has refused to reveal their gender, and they have a point: their comments have been flat-out rejected by certain men who presume them to be female. (I'm speaking generally, I'm not commenting on this week's round of barb-trading because I just rolled my eyes and scrolled past it. Life's too short.)
131
I disagree Fan @130. I don't see undead comments are rejected only because certain commenters think undead is female, it's also because undead baits some of the men and they react and it's off. Often the original comment that sets undead off doesn't seem to be that problematic. And even if it is, being vicious is unattractive, whatever gender one is.
132
I've never seen Undead start any fights, and I suppose the difference between vicious and snarky depends on whether you're on the receiving end.

Looking forward to next week's column!
133
After re-reading MESSY I think the letter was written by the husband as if his wife were writing to Dan. My own marriage has been a series of screw-ups by both parties but we keep trying to patch it together. They should probably do the same IMHO. AS for Mr. "Surprise" penis, I don't know. If he is in love /infatuated with her what the diff whether she is a penis-haver?
134
I've been away from this week's column since it was published, so have been catching up on comments. I was disappointed to see that COCK's letter seemed to have elicited a meager response, but has resurfaced in the last few comments. Though I was initially put off by some of the prissiness of his language (i.e., "nice lady") and the nebulous meaning of meeting "through the normal methods" (huh, what?), I like that COCK feels that there is an organic male-female attraction between the two of them.

Since she's been honest in revealing that she is trans and will be non-op, they could (and should) have a talk about expectations. I wish more trans people might have commented ... but I guess I'll just stumble along with some suggestions. I know that some pre- or non-op FtM people will label their vaginas as front holes, to avoid triggering feelings of dysphoria, so was wondering whether she might consider her penis to be a big clit and whether he might learn to relate to her genitals that way (so he's not equating the contact as a "gay experience"). He's already stated he's open-minded, so that's a promising start.

Once again, I'm not sure of what physical contact they've had (kissing or making out). If they have and he's been turned on, he might want to suggest moving on to the next level (which does not necessitate the removal of clothing). Could they do outercourse as the next step, with caressing and grinding for the sake of mutual pleasure? And then move on from there incrementally ... perhaps into a candlelit bubble bath where she's lying between his legs and they can enjoy lots of slippery, sensuous friction? I hope that she can be patient with him as they explore a more intimate relationship that fulfills both of them.
135
@133 sb53: So good to hear from you again here in SL!
Sorry I haven't emailed in a while. Please keep in touch.
@131LavaGirl and @132 BiDanFan: I would love to get
email from the two of you, too, and catch up. Sorry It has
been a while.
@132 BiDanFan: I too, am looking forward to next week's
Savage Love.
136
Yes Grizelda, I'll email you soon. Can't believe trump found the ultimate diversion thru sport, though of course he's not one to let a racist opportunity slip him by. No scriptwriter could have dreamed up this maniac.
WoofCandy, plenty of men comment on Dan's sites. That not a lot of them comment here, might have something to do with how some of them have been socialized not to share too much. And this thread, SL, because it rolls on for a week, lends itself to self disclosure. Why you insist on seeing undead as female, doesn't help your position a lot. We don't know what gender they are, so make no assumptions there.
137
Thank you Web Master. Sorted the problem.
138
I spoke too soon. So it sometimes posts straight away and sometimes not. Is this deliberate do you think. Dan closing us down or playing with our minds. Chuckling to himself ...
139
Testing
140
@136 LavaGirl: Trumpzilla truly is a maniac (although I think that's putting it nicely).
At least there's some good news (for now, anyway): RepubliKKKans failed--again--to kill Obamacare (a.k.a. Affordable Care Act, or ACA) and have--jesus!--FINALLY, after seven years of whining, 'Repeal and Replace' while offering nothing but lies, propaganda, and the usual corrupt-as-fuck bullshit--are dropping their pursuit of killing Obamacare. Thank you, Susan Collins R-Maine, for being one of few adults across the aisle with good sense, concern for the health needs of fellow U.S citizens, and a conscience. Fuck you, Mitch McConnell, Mugsy Ryan et al ad nauseum for being so stupidly hellbent on keeping a dead zombie horse on corporate life support.
And more good news: The Pacific Northwest is sticking to its guns, despite the Trumpzillan / Pencezillan Pro-Fossil Fuels Evil Regime on stopping dirty coal terminals from being built and exporting toxic fossil fuels to Asia. A big FUCK YOU to Ryan Zinke, Scott Pruitt ad nauseum hell bent on destroying our neck of the woods as well as the rest of the world for their own selfish corporate gain.

    Please wait...

    Comments are closed.

    Commenting on this item is available only to members of the site. You can sign in here or create an account here.


    Add a comment
    Preview

    By posting this comment, you are agreeing to our Terms of Use.