Savage Love Oct 4, 2017 at 4:00 am

'Bate and Snitch


Just an easy reference to the letters:
I'm a 22-year-old straight male dating a 23-year-old woman. This is by far the most sexual relationship I've been in, which is great, except one part is freaking me out: I recently "caught" my girlfriend masturbating with her roommate's panties. (She knew I was coming over and wanted me to catch her.) It turns out she has a habit of sneaking her roommate's worn underwear, masturbating while smelling them (or putting them in her mouth), and then sneaking them back into her roommate's laundry basket. She has also used her roommate's vibrator and dry-humped her pillow to orgasm. I got turned on hearing about all this, and she jerked me off with her roommate's panties. My girlfriend says she gets turned on being "naughty" and most of her fantasies involve being her roommate's sex slave, me fucking the roommate while my GF is tied up, etc. Our sex life now revolves around the roommate—my GF has stolen a few more pairs of panties and even worn them while I fucked her, and her dirty talk is now almost entirely about her roommate. This turns me on, so I don't really want it to stop, but my questions are: (1) Is this bad? (2) Is this normal? We're conditioned to believe women are less kinky and less sexual than men, and I don't want to buy into that. My girlfriend says she isn't "that weird." I don't know what to think.
There's No Acronym For This

1. It's bad.
2. When it comes to human sexuality, TNAFT, variance is the norm. Which means freakiness/naughtiness/kinkiness is normal—science backs me up on this—and, yes, lots of women have high libidos and lots are kinky. Your e-mail came sandwiched between a question from a woman who needs sex daily (and foolishly married a man with a very low libido*) and a question from a woman who is into BDSM (and wisely held out for a GGG guy who's getting better at bondage but can't bring himself to inflict the erotic/consensual pain she craves**).
But "variance is the norm" doesn't get your girlfriend off the hook—or you, TNAFT. You and your girlfriend are both violating this poor woman's privacy, potentially her health (unless your girlfriend is sterilizing her roommate's vibrator after using it), and—perhaps most importantly—her trust. Honoring each other's privacy and showing mutual respect for each other's belongings are the social norms that make it possible for unrelated/unfucking adults to share a living space. We trust our roommates not to steal money out of our purses, eat our peanut butter, use our toothbrushes, etc. And even if your roommate never catches you, it's still not okay to use their fucking toothbrush. It should go without saying that we trust our roommates not to shove our dirty panties into their mouths, use our sex toys, hump our pillows, etc. We can't control who fantasizes about us—people can fantasize about whomever they care to—but we have an absolute right to control who handles our dirty underpants. (My God, think of all the times you've run out of clean underwear and fished a dirty pair out of the laundry and worn them a second time!)
Your girlfriend should make an honest, respectful, naughty pass at her roommate. And who knows? Maybe her roommate is just as pervy as you two are and would jump at the chance to have a sex slave and full use of her roommate/sex slave's boyfriend in exchange for a few dirty panties. Or maybe she'd like to move.

I'm a six-months-pregnant woman in a wonderful relationship. My sex drive has skyrocketed, and I get uncomfortably horny at random times. I work at a preschool and have gone into the one-person locked bathroom during my break for a quick rubout. Is this wrong? It takes me one minute to come and I'm totally silent. But I'm at a preschool and there are little kids on the other side of that door. Thoughts?
Knocked Up And Horny
You're doing nothing wrong—and pretty soon you'll be having sex in your home while your kid sleeps or plays on the other side of your bedroom door, KUAH, so you might as well get some practice in. And if you don't want a kid walking in on you at home, either (and you definitely don't), put a lock on your bedroom door.


I am a 29-year-old woman and getting married to my boyfriend of four years, "Adam," in a few months. Relationship is great, sex is fantastic, no complaints. So why am I writing? Adam's best friend, "Steve," was his roommate in college, and Adam recently revealed that he and Steve used to masturbate together. I have no idea what to make of this. I don't think Adam is gay and I don't think Steve is either. Maybe they're heteroflexible? But is it common for straight guys to masturbate together? Also, why is he just telling me this now, after we've been together for four years? I'm not sure how I should act around Steve. He hangs out with us a lot. Help!
Seeking To Evaluate Very Explosive Disclosure
"Buddy-bating among straight guys is more common than people may think," said Trey Lyon of Fuck Yeah! Friendly Fire, the "definitive source for straightish porn." Lyon's website——features porn of the "heteroflexible/almost bi" variety, i.e., two guys who aren't afraid they'll melt if their dicks touch while they're having sex with the same woman. Lyon's website has more than 200,000 followers and he's heard from lots of straight/straightish guys who masturbate with—read: beside—their straight/straightish male buddies. Lyon doesn't have hard data for you, STEVED, only anecdote, but it's safe to say your fiancé isn't the only straight/straightish guy out there who's done a little "buddy-bating."
So why do straight/straightish guys do this?
"In her controversial 2015 book Not Gay: Sex Between Straight White Men, author Jane Ward asserts that sexual interaction between straight white men allows them to leverage whiteness and masculinity to authenticate their heterosexuality in the context of sex with men," said Lyon. "That by understanding their same-sex sexual interaction as meaningless, accidental, or even necessary, straight white men can homosexually engage in heterosexual ways. As a non-white guy myself, it is my hallucination that the same might be the case across racial lines as well—at least when it comes to dudes jerking off together."
I'm going to break in here for a moment: I think Ward's book is bullshit—at least when she's talking about men who have anal/oral sex with other men on the regular and without a female chaperone. While I believe a guy can have a same-sex experience without having to identify as gay or bi—straight men should have the same latitude on this score that straight women enjoy—straightness is so valued (and apparently so vulnerable) that some people can look at guys who put dicks in their mouths at regular intervals and construct book-length rationalizations that allow these guys to avoid identifying or being labeled as bi, gay, or queer. (And if sucking dick allows straight men to "authenticate their heterosexuality," wouldn't there be gay men out there eating pussy to "authenticate" their homosexuality?)
Back to Lyon...
"A lot of the straight guys who reach out to me mention that they enjoy bonding in a masculine albeit sexual way with another guy, while also still only being responsible for getting themselves off," said Lyon. "And sharing a moment of vulnerability in this way with another guy strengthens their friendship. STEVED's boyfriend may be mentioning this now because it's not something he feels he should be ashamed of, it's something well-integrated into his sexuality and orientation, and he feels it is important to be open with his fiancée. Wait, what's the problem again?"
* Divorce and start over.
** Keep talking, baby steps. But if he can't, he can't. Tops get to have limits,

TNFT- I may be wrong, the times they are a changin’, but LW1 seems to me very much like a male fantasy. That includes the panties (mis)handling, possibly mostly so.
It’s possible that LW wants to check if there are real women out there who share a similar fantasy, and what are his chances of meeting one.

KUAH- again, nothing wrong as long as you keep discretion. If you’re too distracted at work check if a morning pre work session helps.
Whoever said Adam and/or Steve were white?

I'll let the dudes do the talking, but my understanding is that guys, especially young guys, do this quite often. They're not socialised to be as modest as women are -- think differences between men's and women's locker rooms -- they're in close quarters, and they're horny. Instead of waiting endlessly for your roommate to leave the dorm so you can have a wank, it makes sense that many would suggest wanking together.

As far as TNAFT's girlfriend, eww eww eww. Is she secretly in love with the roommate? Seems a bit stalkery to me. She needs to stop immediately, and maybe find a cam girl or real-life sex worker who can send her used undies and feature in her threesomes-minus-ones.
CMD @3.1: Yeah, I think you may be right about that. My skeeve factor overrode my bullshit detector there.
TNAFT, your girlfriend's boundary issues are out of control, and you've lost any perspective on this because you're still near the start of your sexual explorations and you've partnered with a highly sexual woman with some erotically charged fantasies. Right now, you're so turned on and excited by your girlfriends kinks that you're not thinking about wants, needs, and rights of your girlfriend's roommate, who is wholly oblivious to the fact that her underwear, pillow, and sex toy are being used by your girlfriend and you for masturbation and sex.

It should be obvious to you that this is wrong, and you should not need to put yourself into this woman's position to understand that fact. Stop doing this immediately.

What can you do? You and your girlfriend should get on FetLife and try to meet women who have kinks complementary to your girlfriend, and who would be willing to explore your girlfriend's need for submission and sexual humiliation.

STEVED, why is your fiancee just telling you this now, after you've been together for four years? Good question, why didn't you ask your fiancee when he made that disclosure? When you do ask him, you might also ask him whether he has been engaging in this practice throughout your relationship. (I guess yes.) And whether he plans on engaging in this practice after you're married. (I also guess yes.) Is your fiance interested in a threesome? (Maybe.) How should you act around Steve? You just learned that your fiance and Steve are a bit closer than you knew a few days ago. That shouldn't change how you treat him, unless you'd like that threesome.
OK, LW1 (the pantie masturbator) *HAS* to be gender flipped, right? Like everything about is classic male sissy/sub/etc. right?
@3 you will never find a more modest place on earth than a high school boy's locker room. This is one of the truest cartoons ever drawn:…
Sublime @5: Why is the fiancé revealing this now? My guess is that with a higher level of commitment having just been made, he thinks he owes a future wife a higher level of disclosure than he would a girlfriend. This sort of thing isn't unusual.

Sportlandia @6: Sorry! Yet again the entire world does not conform to your gender stereotypes. Suck it up, buttercup.

Sportlandia @7: What's missing from that cartoon is the comparison to the girls' locker room, in which everyone is hidden in a cubicle and not even within eyeshot of each other.
@8/BiDanFan: I don't disagree, and would add that early in the relationship he was probably concerned that STEVE would freak out, might not be a willing to assume he was straight, and that the disclosure would end the relationship. That STEVE has agreed to marry him, may have led him to believe that he could disclose this fact without relationship ending repercussions. Of course STEVE is still a little freaked, and I still think STEVE should discuss this with her fiance, if only to put her mind at ease as to his intentions.

@6/Sportlandia: I like to take letters as they come, rather than re-imagining them with hidden meaning. In any event, I've met enough kinky women to see this letter as wholly plausible.
@3. My boss has commented more than once about how only guys in their 70s seem to let it all hang out in the locker room. Guys in their 20s-50s are as covered up ad women and high school guys.
Re: Steve letter...were they watching porn, got hornet, whipped it out and did their thing while somewhat ignoring one another? Were they both in separate beds, in the dark, and pretend not to know what's happening? Were they sitting next to each other, staring deeply into one another's eyes, wanking away until they climaxed together, shooting their loads onto each other? How islt happened matters a whole bunch more than the fact that it did happen. Also, a rare occurrence, once in a while, regularly, nightly? Is it something from his past or is it still happening when they get together?
@8 but I mean, an overwhelming percentage of people, like 90%+, do. We're allowed to use our brains and interpret the meaning of these little squiggles on screen that we see with our eyeballs. Asking a question isn't the same as asserting correctness.
@11: I'm gonna have to go to my bunk and contemplate each of these scenarios you've brought up. I'll let y'all know my opinions sometime later.
If we take a few premises as given, it is possible to allow straight men to have some forms of sex with other straight men and not only identify as straight, but not actually be deluding themselves. 1) whether in a relationship with a woman or not, they cannot get as much sex as they want with women, 2) it's either same room masturbation, or mutual hand jobs, 3) there is no affection between them, and possibly 4) straight sex is discussed. I can see friends blowing off some steam together watching straight porn and jerking off. They might even incorporate some sort of celebration of their maleness like mutual penis admiration—in the context of how a woman would like it, or how they would enjoy fucking a woman with it. However, in this context, if oral or anal sex is involved, any idea that these guys are a zero on the Kinsey scale is pure delusion.
Sportlandia @12: Phrasing the question as a foregone conclusion ("... *HAS* to be... right?") is asserting correctness. Contrast your wording with CMD's "seems to me" @3, which is asserting their own impression. (Hope I'm OK in calling you "they," CMD.)

Assuming a zero percent chance that strangers do not conform to accepted gender stereotypes is insulting to those (wildly underguesstimated) 10 percent of individuals who do not. Why is it so difficult to accept that not everything is black and white, that people are individuals, and that there is a lot of overlap in any gender-based bell curve? What stake, I wonder, do you have in oversimplifying everything thus? Has SL not taught you anything about the vast diversity of human beings and their preferences and desires, their boundless capacity for breaking norms?

Will @13: Yes, I do believe that more detailed meditation on STEVED's fiancé's buddy-bating is in order. For science!
Thank you CMD @2 for reprinting the letters and answers on this page - although it takes so long to scroll up and back to reference them, it's still easier for me to just open the letters on a separate tab in my browser.

LW1, TNAFT: Gender is completely irrelevant to the issue TNAFT presents. This kind of behavior by ANYONE, even once you get past the "ick" factor, is super-disrespectful to the roommate. In fact, it goes beyond disrespectful. It's creepy, stalker-ish, borderline criminal. You can't just appropriate someone else's stuff to satisfy your own sexual needs, without asking their permission! And going along with it because it turns you on even while it creeps you out, just makes you a willing accessory to the crime. Unless the roommate is pretty far out there on the kink scale herself, when and if she finds out, she is likely to not only refuse to play but immediately terminate the roommate arrangement. They'll be lucky if she doesn't prosecute. I agree with Dan that it's totally unacceptable behavior and it needs to stop NOW. But I disagree with his suggestion that they try to establish an open and honest sexual relationship with the roomie, lest she eventually learn "the rest of the story."

LW2, KUAH: Been there, done that myself, more times than I can count! I'd love to know the percentage of people who have masturbated to climax at least once in their lives during the regular workday, either in a workplace stall or single-user bathroom. I'd bet it's at least 40 percent, perhaps over 50. Talk about the pause that refreshes!

LW3, STEVED: I think your fiance may be testing the waters, first to make sure he can trust you to not over-react when he is honest with you about his sexual feelings and experiences, and secondly because Steve is still such a good and close friend that he'd rather you hear about it from him directly and not from Steve - on a night when you're all sitting drunk and giggly around a campfire, for example. But it's also possible that Adam still has feelings for Steve that go beyond platonic friendship, and he wants you to know about it before the two of you get married. Only you can decide whether that's a deal-breaker or not, within the context of your current and future relationship with Adam - but if he is more deeply involved with Steve than the occasional buddy-wank during their college years, he's being a good and decent man by sharing it with you now.

vab51 @14, I was following your logic, right up until I got to "mutual hand jobs" in your second bullet. It's hard for me to imagine how any true Kinsey-zero, male-identified person would let another guy get anywhere near his genitals - many get nervous when another man gets too "huggy" with them. I also can't picture two men engaging in "mutual penis admiration" without a same-sex attraction component, even if their conversation is all about how well that glorious member will serve them with the ladies. Sorry, but IMO mutual masturbators and members of the Penis Adoration Club can rank no lower than one on the Kinsey scale, even if they tell each other that they are both soooo straight.
I'm with Lyon re LW3. What's the problem? Men's friendships, like women's friendships, can look weird to the opposite sex. We all still need that in our lives. Why should Adam have mentioned this to the LW before, it's no big deal, for men. And maybe some women, it was not something my gfs and I ever did around each other. What else are young guys going to do in college, if they have a room mate? Go without. Not likely.
I suggest you relax around Steve, LW, and say no more about it.
@16 Cap: I've done it once, in a multi-stall bathroom at the office. I was in my late 20s.
I take it as a good sign LW3, it means your husband to be isn't homophobic in some deep recess of his mind. I had that thought too Capri, @16, that he's testing her, seeing if she's threatened by male bonding behaviours.
I wouldn't ask the details, best to just think they were in their seperate beds.
I mean for the LW writer's piece of mind, not because it is wrong if those boys were all over each other.
LW, if you feel jealous of your husband's friendship with his friend, best you own up to that feeling and let them be. He's marrying and making a commitment to you. Trust him.
Couple more reasons I think LW1 is not telling us the full story: Considering all the activities associated with roommate’s sheets and underwear- going through her stuff, masturbating with it, throwing it back to the laundry basket- one would assume she would have been noticed it by now.
Another are the questions LW is asking: “Is it bad? Is it normal?” These questions are usually asked by someone feeling very guilty who needs an assurance of some sort.
It is also likely to be his way to introduce the issue to the public and gauge how common it is, maybe also get some statistics if available. (“A new research shows that 72% of single women under the age of 30 who reside in a shared housing environment are likely to steal their female house mates’ underwear and use them for their own as well as their boyfriends’ sexual gratification.”)

LW1 and I will be delighted to know there are women out there who are into all or some the stuff he described, in an ethical way though.

BDF @ 15- “they” is ok, thanks for asking.

Capri @ 16 re percentage of population masturbating in a work place facility at some point in their lives- my guess is 72%.
STEVED - I think this is quite common. Boys hang out to play and past a certain age the time hanging out would be better spent wanking. It’s usually when hanging out with your mates that you actually have some ‘privacy’ unlike at home or school. When you get older you might just continue and then there’s viewing porn together and one thing leads to another.
As to why he’s telling you now. Maybe he wanted to get it off his chest, thought you’d find it sexy or just thought he couldn’t mention his mate has a massive dick withought telling you how he knows.
Ank @18 and CMD @21, thanks for chiming in! Any other office wank-and-tellers out there...?

Lava @17 @19 @20 and Jodo @22, I get where you're coming from, occasional masturbation in close proximity to another man falls within the spectrum of normal hetero male sexual expression, bonding and friendship, and STEVED should just let it go. But if Adam (her fiance) is trying to reach out to her and explain more about his relationship with Steve than he has previously revealed, and it runs deeper than occasional jerk-offs within a shared physical space during their teens and early 20s, she is not doing either one of them a favor by putting fingers in her ears and saying "La-la, can't hear you, don't wanna hear you." It wouldn't take much of an effort on her part to ask "Do you ever feel like you might want to be with Steve again in a sexual way in the future, after we're married...?" And then listen carefully and non-judgmentally to what Adam has to say about it.
Old woman here, to tell you that old woman also lose their modesty at around the same time they lose their waistlines. I spend a lot of time in locker rooms with other old women (aquasize classes) and I'd estimate the percentage of over-60s who are comfortable walking around, chatting, putting on lotion, etc while naked or almost naked to be about 75%. Percentage of lovely young girls with the same comfort? Around zero.
I was something of a hippie back in the day, my husband even more so. Around the time we got married he told me that he and a friend had given each other hand jobs, just to see what it was like, expand their sexual boundaries..... "Oh yeah? Did you like it?" "Mmm, yeah, it was all right". and that was the end of it.

That was nearly forty years ago, folks. And we've still got people saying things like " It's hard for me to imagine how any true Kinsey-zero, male-identified person would let another guy get anywhere near his genitals"? Circle jerks have been a thing for a long time, y'know.
@24 This is very culture specific also. I was at the swimming baths/sauna in Slovenia and got introduced to a friend's boss and his wife while we were all naked at the canteen.
I find eye contact is the most important thing when meeting new people.
@ agony 24 & 25 -- come & sit by me!

Also an old woman; walk around naked in the women's locker room after water aerobics; and know that circle jerks have always been a thing.
Agony @25, I didn't say that a man could never self-identify as straight after participating in circle-jerks and various other forms of sexual experimentation. People can self-identify however they please, and our self-identifications often change over time, as we grow more self-confident and throw off any imposed inhibitions, stereotypes, or pre-conceived notions about sexuality that we may have picked up as youngsters. What I said was that such a man could not be objectively defined as a Kinsey zero. You appear to be sure that your husband has identified as straight for all the time you have known him, and I have no reason to doubt that. But I still wouldn't classify him as a Kinsey zero, since he told you that mutual hand jobs from another guy felt pretty good during his sexual experimental period as a young man. That's Kinsey 1 behavior - predominantly heterosexual, only incidentally homosexual.

The true Kinsey zeroes and sixes I have known would not have even considered experimenting with people who were not their preferred gender - the very idea makes them squeamish, or even nauseous. Some people get uncomfortable just looking at nude statues of the "wrong" gender.
LW1: No. Not cool. Always get consent before involving someone in your sexual activity. This is very non-consensual and very not-ok.

LW2: Yeah, you're gonna have a kid, you're gonna have to have a lot of silent quickies, might as well practice now.

LW3: I find the 'gay-or-not-gay' question is pretty irrelevant - I care about the 'faithful-or-not' question and the 'into-me-or-not' question. For this, I'd treat it like finding out my fiance had any other friend-with-history: sit him down and be like "so, I'm not saying you can't hang out with him, but I am saying that I expect monogamy (or whatever poly terms you've hammered out) and if you do it again, I'll consider it cheating." Of course, LW might be like that girl a while back who was like "so long as I'm the only woman, have as many men as you want," in which case, I guess LW can do that.
Something like Capricornius @16 I do not think TNAFT's gf should make a straight-out pass at her roommate. There's a possibility she'll do so in a way that's intoxicated by, high on, the improper and clandestine sexual contact she's been having with her friend's pants, pillow, and so on. And there's the potential for major discomfort, to say the least, if the roommate isn't game. Some sort of flirtation could instead develop organically.

But quite possibly a better option is that the couple seek out a third. They may be at the stage of learning about how they enjoy sex (as a couple and individually) where they don't know what's fun as a fantasy and what they'd actually like to do. To me it's quite likely that the gf really would enjoy being tied up while her lover fucks a 'friend' (or 'boss' or 'rival', whatever). The LW could encourage they look into that--instead of breaching the boundaries of someone who's not involved, the roommate.
@14. Vab. I think most straight male homosexuality is homophobic. 'Most'--well, this is a stab in the dark, necessarily a subjective estimate. But speaking as a 'man' with an unshakably feminized physique, who is frequently hit on by straight men in a mood of angry or self-righteous entitlement, the kind of quick sex they might want, or sexuality they're expressing, is not queer or one that seeks solidarity with gay men. Rather it salves a need or insecurity and cements bonds between straight, normatively-appearing (cis but more than that) men.

I don't think the LW's husband is like this. He's probably straight in his behavior, did something a few times which he now sees as outside his repertoire and predilections, and is checking his future wife is OK with it.
Capri @16: The thing that struck me most about KUAH's letter was that she can masturbate silently. What?! How!?!

CMD @21: I for one would never think to examine my laundry basket to see if things were still in the same order I put them there in.
A long time ago when I was young and poor I used to sometimes raid my roommate's discarded change for food and cigarette money. He never noticed.

Jodo @22: "there’s viewing porn together and one thing leads to another." That's a plausible scenario to me. Roomie A has some porn he wants to watch, and it gives him a boner, and once he's got a boner he kind of forgets that his pal is in the same room and just does what comes naturally. Once Roomie A has taken things in hand, and Roomie B is also turned on by the porn, hey, why not? It's not as if Roomie A will say "hey, put that away!" I've had male partners who see nothing wrong with just masturbating in the bed with me, so I guess it's an itch that when some need to scratch, they don't really care who else is present. (See also: KUAH.)

Capricornius @28: I still disagree that only a person who pukes when looking at Michelangelo's David can claim to be 100% straight. Just for the record, not to reopen the can of Kinsey worms.

Harriet @30: I agree, Getting sexually involved with a roommate completely violates the "don't shit where you eat" rule.
Just want to make the point, why did Mr STEVED wait so long to disclose this youthful indiscretion? Well, because so many people -- present company included -- would, and have, reacted to such a disclosure by questioning his sexual orientation. No wonder he kept it to himself for four years.
LW1~ If TNAFT was only sneaking the roommate’s dirty panties and then washing them & returning to the drawer I’d be inclined to give these two a pass, but they’ve crossed the line by using the vibrator and especially hunping her pillow(!) there are better ways to be naughty without invading someone’s personal space. This is juvenile delinquency, grow up and kink responsibly (like LW2 KUAH, for example, who by the way can come within a minute! Go girl!).

LW3 ~ Adam & Steve used to masturbate together, but when? When they were 13? No big deal. When they were 25? Maybe something more going on than just being “friendly”.
I think I'm going to be an outlier her for the advice to LW2 - KUAH...

While I 100% agree that there's nothing wrong with what she's doing as presented in the letter, she is undertaking a rather extreme risk to her career in doing so.

Parents are notoriously sex negative for their child care givers. I would bet large sums of money I don't have that, if KUAH is discovered, she will be immediately terminated and never be able to work with kids again.

Would that be an unacceptably extreme response to harmless fun? Yes. Would I expect that response out of the vast majority of parents? Hell yes.

KUAH, you're not doing anything wrong but is the risk worth it to you?
MonkeyFetish @25: Assuming that she's doing it in a locked toilet stall, I really don't see how anyone would find out.
BDF @32 - smh...I too do not want to reignite the Kinsey Wars, but you're doing that really irritating thing again, and I'm going to call you out on it. I said, "Some (Kinsey zeros and sixes) get uncomfortable just looking at nude statues..." and you twisted it around to say "I still disagree that only a person who pukes when looking at Michelangelo's David can claim to be 100% straight." Well, there's actually nothing to disagree with, because I NEVER SAID THAT.

In formal debate terms, this technique is called "lawyering," and it is considered intellectually dishonest by most coaches and judges. Fox News uses it a lot.

I happen to think you're much better than that; your posts reveal a person with a fine mind, a pragmatic world view, a strong educational background, and excellent writing skills. You are perfectly capable of articulating your points without resorting to baseless accusations and false leaps of logic. Yet I observe you using this technique on me and others in this forum on a regular basis. Maybe now that I have pointed it out to you, you'll become more aware when you start twisting others' words around negatively to promote your own POV in some (certainly not all) of your posts.

That's my hope, anyway. Peace from my side of the Big Pond.
Monkey @35, I agree with TS @36. Anyone who would stand that close to a locked bathroom door and attempt to listen in while KUAH uses the facilities during her scheduled break time, has a lot more reason to worry about negative backlash from the school staff and parents than KUAH does.
@32 (BDF)
The thing that struck me most about KUAH's letter was that she can masturbate silently. What?! How!?!
It's not hard at all when you consider that making noise during partnered sex is something that turns both (or more) participants on even more; or shows how much they're enjoying everything. You don't need to make noise when you're alone: you're already turned on, you already feel and know how much pleasure you're having, and these circumstances demand that you not reveal your activity. Actually, some people feel even more turned on when they know they shouldn't make a sound.
Will@13 Come up with anything?

I didn't see this discussed but I'm curious how Adam told his fiancée about jerking off with Steve. Was it like, Adam: Honey, sit down, we need to talk. There is something that I really need to tell you.

Or STEVED: Yeah, my girlfriends and I did crazy things in college!
ADAM: You think that's crazy? Steve and I used to beat off together!

So, yeah, I'm curious about the context of the conversation that brought about the disclosure.
BDF @ 3
“I'll let the dudes do the talking, but my understanding is that guys, especially young guys, do this quite often. They're not socialised to be as modest as women are “

“JodoKast” @ 22
“I think this is quite common. Boys hang out to play and past a certain age the time hanging out would be better spent wanking.”

The Wild Sow @ 27 “… [I] know that circle jerks have always been a thing.”

Despite my wannabeism current state of mind I grew up as an ordinary boy.
It was a small place where kids grew up together and one didn’t have much privacy.

When masturbation appeared it was done very privately despite our otherwise shared lives. The times the subject came up in a conversation weren’t about comparing techniques but rather a “funny” analogy to something negative or synonymous to a waste of time, often accompanied with pretend laughs and semi-nervous giggles.
You never wanted to get caught, and doing it with others was unheard of.
Even later in life while sharing space during a military service or traveling, masturbation was done privately. I never noticed anyone doing it and sure hope they didn’t notice me.

Porn wasn’t as accessible as it is today, but I don’t think that plays a significant a factor when it comes to masturbating with others.

Circle jerks have indeed been around for a long time, are more common than one would think up to the early 20s, and to my knowledge (I never took part in one) are mostly about showing off (for the well-endowed) and demonstrating that you're not gay.

Every gay man I ever discussed the subject with dreaded the thought of a circle jerk, as it might reveal how much he was attracted to other men. So by taking part in one, straight guys were actually bonding in their straightness and demonstrating that they weren't afraid of getting a massive erection and drooling over their comrades... because they were straight. They would need porn, or some effort, to get an erection, and thus would prove their "real man" status.

That's my admittedly underinformed take on the subject.

Also, I believe there was a time in those hippy days Agony refers to, early 70s David Bowieish androgyny and sexual exploration were in fashion and it would have been considered totally uncool not to experiment, so a lot of guys tried such things as mutual hand jobs, just to see what it was like and to expand their sexual boundaries, found it alright, and never did it again... because they actually were Kinsey 0s (or 0.5s), but they yielded to the political correctness of their day.

That said, Adam did not admit to taking part in a circle jerk, just a one on one with his friend Steve, so it's actually a different debate.
First, a clarification. Adam and Steve were roommates in college. Although it is possible that they were high school or even childhood friends that attend the same university, STEVE describes them as "college roommates," so I think it is fair that this is when the relationship started, and their masturbatory history is best viewed in that context.

Although I may be misinterpreting, there seems to be a belief that boys and young men masturbating together is common. If we are discussing straight identified men, and "common" is defined as 0-2% of that population, I might believe that it is "common." But I do not believe that many college-age, straight-identified men are masturbating together. In any event, if this is still happening, that is most certainly uncommon.

As I said above, it was not unreasonable for Adam to withhold this information and disclose at this juncture, but I think this was the opening of a conversation, and I would encourage STEVE to initiate the next part of that conversation soon.
Capricornius @37: In informal terms, it's called "exaggerating for effect," and I'll stop doing it when everyone else on the internet does.

Helenka @39: And some people (hi there!) simply cannot come if they are concentrating on anything else at all, including suppressing pleasure sounds. Granted, I don't make as much noise while masturbating as I do while shagging, but if I'm enjoying myself, sounds come out. They're not for anyone else's benefit, they're just because stuff feels good. (So yeah, no workplace wanking for me.)

Re STEVED: Pop culture references to tandem wanking include the superb film Y Tu Mamá También and the fantastic Britcom Fresh Meat (series 2, episode 1). I guess I remain in the dark about how often this happens in real life.
Capr @23
Ank @18 and CMD @21, thanks for chiming in! Any other office wank-and-tellers out there...?

It has happened a few times in my career. Note that office toilets here are completely closed off spaces, not these semi-open saloon-door "stalls", so there is no danger of being caught.
OMG just a quick note to say that I'd be completely freaked out and disgusted if I found out someone else was using my vibrator and then not telling me about it. The underwear thing, yeah that's an invasion of privacy, but I could see filing it away under the "what they don't know, doesn't hurt them" category- it's dishonest and wrong and grounds to end a room-mate situation, but it's not actually potentially harmful or intrusive. But for a room mate to get their bodily fluids all over my vibrator... oh my god that would make me kick someone's ass. Seriously, there would be a violent altercation.

As to the second situation, I think Dan blew it on this one and the academic mumbo jumbo, while interesting from a sociological pov, doesn't help the LW. Here's my response, for what it's worth since I'm not a straight guy myself - It's been my experience that straight guys that live together in close quarters when they are young and horny do jack off in front of each other frequently enough that we could call this a norm. (Or have I just known a lot of really horny and not-shy men?) As guys get older, they either stop doing this or they go to greater lengths to keep it secret. As for the LW, since she's concerned about her man being bi, she should just ask some simple questions in a non-judgmental way that have nothing to do with the academic crap Dan posted. Such as: were they just sitting around together jacking off sometimes? Or were they kissing and lending each other a hand? Also, did this stop when they stopped living together and when they got older? Or did they / do they continue to meet up to jack off together after they were no longer room mates? It's possible he told you this because he is bi and wants to see how you feel about it. It's more likely he just told you in passing because it's something dudes do.


I sure don't know of a study or a sample- I bet there is one somewhere. But my own "investigation" into this matter is that it's super common. My highschool friends used to joke about it all the time- how many of those jokes were real, I don't know. My husband went to boarding schools and he's told me that it's totally common for guys to jack off in the same room when they are young, horny and in close quarters, but that some are more discreet than others and some make a bigger deal about it and can be annoying about it. And others do it as a way to try to be macho or intimidating or bonding or showing off.

My take away is that if young guys live together in close quarters, they are ALL going to jack off with the other person in the room but there are variations - discreetly at night in your own bed? out in the open while watching porn? laughing with your best buddy? So that the majority would be in the first category (attempting some limited privacy) while a few will be bold and not shy, and then other guys scattered between depending what sort of roommate/buddy situation they end up in.

And yes, in case you were wondering, I have asked my husband and plenty of other men to describe in detail when/where/why they jack off in the presence of other men.

Still obviously I'm a straight woman and would love to hear more from the men's first hand experience. ;)
As Dan mentioned, there are straight guys who do not freak out if their junk touches the other man in a MFM 3-way. They can separate same-sex attraction from incidental contact in the context of straight sex. As you say, though, quite a few straight men are deathly afraid of doing anything that might possibly be construed as less than totally straight. As Dan mentioned, male straightness is highly prized in our culture, and for all the bravado, it is fragile. Since I think that the vast majority of us are bisexual but feel restricted by society, I'm willing to round a Kinsey 0.4 down to straight. Being a perfect Kinsey 6, I can't know what goes on in the head of a straight guy jerking off another straight guy, but I'm not going to judge. Do we care whether this passes a clinical test for totally straight?
Because we are having coffee, I told him about this conversation and he just added that part of the reason is that if you are overly concerned with trying to be private about it (going into the bathroom, locking your door) then you are going to be teased about it relentlessly and if you get "caught" the teasing will be brutal, so it's survival to adopt a "yeah, so what? I'll do it out in the open" attitude. Also when other guys do this to you, you put in a position of either going along with it or chickening out. The key is to fly under the radar- be nonchalant and joking about it so you don't get ribbed but don't be one of the assholes who runs around constantly getting into pissing contests with other dudes. This does sound different from the LW though which is describing two friends.

This makes it all seem way less hot. Sometimes I think being a young man is 50% your dick and 50% your place in the hierarchy among other guys.
Vab @48 - I could MAYBE see how two guys "accidentally" touching each others' junk during an MFM 3-way could qualify as a Kinsey 0.4...that is, if MFM sex was a one-off or occasional fling, rather than a regular part of their sexual repertoire. But one self-ID'd straight guy voluntarily jerking off another self-ID'd straight guy? Kinsey 1 at the very least, unless they are in prison or some similar situation under duress, where women are simply not available to them and they are craving some form of sexual variety besides their own hand. (Note, this condition of duress may apply to single-sex boarding schools for both genders, which are notorious for the proliferation of "straight" same-sex action among their students...and occasionally, faculty.)
@47/EmmaLiz: I just find it a bit odd that the women commentors seem sure that this is "super common," while a few, if any of the men, have first hand knowledge of this practice.

First, we need to agree on what we are discussing. I think we need to put aside situations in which a boy, without any privacy, attempts to discretely masturbate, and fervently hopes and does everything possible not to be discovered, which I think is equally common among girls and young women who live together for long periods without privacy. But this scenario is not what STEVE was led to believe had occurred between Adam and Steve. Indeed, I cannot imagine Adam feeling the need to mention that circumstance.

During college, Adam and Steve masturbated out in the open, together with full knowledge and awareness of everyone involved. Among straight-identified boys and men, I think that happens, I wouldn't freak out if I were STEVE, but I think that is generally an uncommon behavior.

So @EmmaLiz, how many of the men you spoke with described circumstances in which they knowingly agreed to masturbate with a friend?
@36 & @38 As someone who has forgotten to lock the door of the private bathroom in my office, I can verify that mistakes happen.

It doesn't require a creepy snoop employee to get discovered, it just takes a bad day.

IMHO, it's not a matter of if she gets discovered, but when. The real question comes down to whether I'm right in my assessment that this would likely ruin any future career in the child care field.
@51 I had some friends in middle school that would skip class to masturbate in the bathroom - while they didn't watch each other, they were all aware what was going on and talked about it openly. I assume they were "racing".

I, personally, am not in to that (I sometimes feel awkward about doing it in front a female partner when it's just the two of us) and I haven't had any other male friends divulge such an activity sense... so I'll assume it's relatively uncommon (but not unheard of) among straight guys.
Sure Sublime, as I said, I'm talking to my husband who spent years in boarding schools. But don't distill everything I said to someone trying to be discreet and hoping not to be caught. The point is that there are various ways to deal with being in close quarters with lots of other horny young men- a full range of experiences from hoping not to be caught to deciding to be open about it as either a way to appear dominate among other dudes, as a way to bond with other guys, or as a way to negotiate the social situation.

I don't know if it's common that young men growing with a lot of privacy end up in this situation with other young men, but it is common that young men are in situations in which they don't have much privacy- among them are sports, camps, and (as in the LW case) sharing a dorm room. I'm not sure what you are asking by the last question- I've had no experiences in which a man said they were unwilling, only that social situations existed to make it happen. The flip side, I've never had any guy tell me that he actively sought out another friend to masturbate with and then arranged for it, etc. Also honestly this isn't something that I've discussed with lots of men- I was joking about that in the spirit of the earlier comments about the potential hotness of Adam and Steve's situation. But as I said, it was a common running joke among the guys when I was in high school but I have no idea if it was ever true or not. And my husband was in a boarding school- I can only assume that other guys in similar situations of close quarters would have had similar experiences. I can't imagine that he and all of his school maters are somehow unique or particularly horny.
Capricornius @50: The way I read the letter, it wasn't "jerking off another straight guy," it was "jerking off with another straight guy." Each guy touching only his own schlong, while watching the same porno together. I think two horny young men, good friends, living in close quarters, could retain their straight cards if they decided they just had to have a wank now, and that their roomie was welcome to have one too.
I know nothing of what straight males do when they are alone together, nor do I want to know. Mr Lyons, Dan's guest, wrote how often straight men say they jack off round their buddies.
I don't think LW should go investigating what went down between the two men, not her business, is it? Ask her beau if he thinks he's bi, if he says no, then drop it.
EmmaLiz@54 ~ " was a common running joke among the guys when I was in high school...
Anything that was a common running joke among guys in high school has about a 98% chance of being total bullshit.
there would be no Kinsey Wars, if the guy wasn't mentioned. Surely after all the cultural changes around sexuality and gender, his scale is a little outdated?
Donny, no way. They were really banging everybody's mamas. I'm sure of it. ;)
Straight-ish male here, probably about a 1 or 2 on the Kinsey Scale and not shy about it... In my experience, mutual masturbation involving two straight males is not common in the slightest.

It is amusing to see women here (who obviously have no direct knowledge of how straight males act when they are alone) claim otherwise. Jokes about circle jerks are pretty common, but that's about it.

If and when mutual masturbation sessions occur, they are probably in hypermasculinized (and more than a little homoerotic) environments like frat houses and, I dunno, submarines? Prison? It might happen, but not quite often, and it's certainly not the typical straight male experience.

"More common than people think" is hard to define, but Lyon's opinion should be taken with a grain of salt, given that he is a purveyor of "heteroflexible/almost bi" porn.

I also think Ward's assertions sound like a load of shit.
@54/EmmaLiz: You make the following assertion: boys and men who live in close quarters in which they don't have much privacy (e.g., sports, camps, and sharing a dorm room) decide to be open about with their masturbation practices, and openly masturbate in sight of their friends.

Let's put aside for now the possible reasons why, including (a) to appear dominant among other dudes, (b) to bond with other guys, or (c) to negotiate the social situation.

Are boys and men are in situations lacking privacy for long periods? Yes, this is a fact. Are there a range of possible ways to deal with this circumstance? Yes. But other than the fact that guys you knew in high school joked about masturbation and some unspecified insight gained from your husband's experience in boarding school, you have had no men tell you that they openly masturbated together with male friends, either as boys or men.

So weighting my own experiences in these settings, along with @53/Sportlandia, and @41/CMDwannabe, along with your husband's, I still think that open masturbation of two or more straight-identified boys or men is uncommon, although not unheard of. In any event, there is a substantial difference between boys in boarding school and men in a college dorm, and however common that behavior is in boys, I suspect Adam and Steve are in a decisive minority of men.
I stuck on something totally different in this column. From one of Dan's responses:

"My God, think of all the times you've run out of clean underwear and fished a dirty pair out of the laundry and worn them a second time!"

Never! This has literally never happened to me! Is this otherwise a routine human experience?!? Buy more underwear, people!

That's almost true- just to be pedantic here- 1) no the insight from my husband is very specific and I know the majority of the men (then boys) involved. But yes, it was a boarding school situation. And 2) yes I've talked about this with other men. I joked about it and said I've "investigated" because I think it's hot (though less so now that my husband has given details), and I have no idea how many of the stories previous dudes have told me are true or just fantasy for my benefit. Otherwise, yes you are correct. And I'm sure high school jokes are mostly just jokes- as I said in my first post, I have no idea how much of that is true.

I was sticking with you on the point of it being "uncommon" b/c to me it sounds pretty damn common UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES- when young horny guys are in a situation in which they have little to no privacy, which was my point from the very beginning. I never said it was common among most young men, but rather among most young men WHO SHARE CLOSE QUARTERS. Which does not seem to be CMD or Sportlandia's case.

The difference is if you consider sharing a dorm with someone close quarters.

As for being a woman, yes as I said, I have no idea first hand but am happy to hear the guy's chime in. ;)

@62 Jy

I thought the exact same thing! Never, though I have more than once had to scramble in the morning to wash a pair in the sink and dry them with the blow dryer!
Ok, so it's not a regular thing, doesn't mean anything. Young men expressing their feelings for each other thru shared masturbation, where's the problem. The LW is making a problem and now feels uncomfortable around his friend, which already doesn't look good for the marriage.
Emma Liz
While it may look like a bunch of penis havers are ganging up against you this is not the case.
That said, Sublime @ 51 beat me… to it: while I’m sure communal masturbations do exist, so far all we know about here in this column comes from women who heard about them, some may find the idea intriguing, , and gay men who avoided them for fear they may show too much enthusiasm. We still need some authentic participants to come forward and give us their detailed account.
And speaking of, I think your past “interrogation methods” were such that men you discussed the subject with got the feeling that they are likely to be further awarded for telling you what you wanted to hear. Again, I’m sure some of what they told you is true.

Panties- It is a violation to go through someone else’s clothes and bedding, try stuff on and masturbate in them regardless if they know it or not.
CMD your phrasing is always lovely.
@49 EmmaLiz... 'Sometimes I think being a young man is 50% your dick and 50% your place in the hierarchy among other guys.'

That's a fantastic summation of growing up male. And while it's admittedly limiting... mastering yourself in both contexts is essential to male adulthood.
Following on. I used to be in the services. I was talking to navy guy about life on a boat. He said "if you told me, when I enlisted, that within a year I'd be holidng my erect dick while another able seaman measures it, I'd have said you were nuts".

There was no presumed gayness in the act of getting hard in front of other guys for the purpose of them seeing it. Of course, these guys were also hotbunking (3 people sharing a bad, in shifts) so a lot of our American modesty got rounded off pretty quickly.
"Adam and Steve," huh? Is someone slipping in a little coded homophobia into her letter? Or did someone on the editorial staff put that in there?
JyLyckhart @62: Nope, me neither. I thought Dan was alluding to their ages here. Young people don't always have money for underwear or the laundromat!

Sportlandia @69: Congrats on the magic number!

Avast @70: I thought "Adam and Steve" was cute. Apparently, the reference is only homophobic if you are a homophobe.

So I've learned something this week: Despite the pop culture references that I mentioned, it seems that "college guys sharing a wank" is the female equivalent of "scantily clad girls having a naughty pillow fight at a slumber party." Doesn't happen anywhere near as often as we would like to think it does.
Luckily I never lived in a boarding-school like enviroment with men/boys of the same age. The report from EmmaLiz's husband that public masturbation in those circumstances has to do with dominance hierarchy games among boys sounds very believable. I've had to endure enough of that crap in normal classroom circumstances (always ending up low in the hierarchy) so I'm glad that I could at least go home after school instead of being confronted with unwanted circle jerks.
@71/DiDanFan: "So I've learned something this week: Despite the pop culture references that I mentioned, it seems that "college guys sharing a wank" is the female equivalent of "scantily clad girls having a naughty pillow fight at a slumber party."

Funny, that was the exact analogy I came to last night while on my way home.
BDF @55, you and I read the letter the same, Adam and Steve were doing their own thing while in the same dorm room at the same time. And like you, I could round that behavior down to straight...assuming that they didn't keep doing it after they stopped being college roomies, and it wasn't their avidly anticipated Friday night sharing ritual. But in my posts @16 @50, I was responding to vab @14 @48, who specifically referred to two guys giving each other a hand job.

Lava @58, using the Kinsey scale is just like using the Richter scale to evauate earthquakes, or the Cat-1 through Cat-5 system for hurricanes. It's just an objective, non-judgmental way to describe people's sexual preferences, so I don't understand why you think it's become outdated by cultural changes in society. I think it's valuable to acknowledge that human sexuality exists along a spectrum, and the Kinsey scale describes that spectrum well. What CAN change, and I think (and hope) is changing, as society becomes more accepting of human differences, is the ability of all people who do not fit well in the Kinsey-zero category to be able to express their true natures and live their true lives - without repression, without ridicule, and without fearing for their safety.

@69 Sportlandia: Congrats on scoring the this week's lucky number!

Dan and everybody: I'm sorry to be this late in the game--a lot is going on with my online courses and music. So I plan to catch up on SL reading and the comment threads this weekend.

Speaking of this weekend: Happy Birthday (tomorrow) Dan the Man, and have a kick ass day! Wishing you, Terry, DJ and Stinker all the very best.
avast @ 70
That's a great question. I'm leaning editorial as I suspect the A&S term may not be that familiar to LW.
If that’s the case then as you pointed out it may be a disservice.

BDF @ 71- “Adam and Steve” may be cute but also implies homosexuality, and in the context of the letter may enhance the “possibly homophobic” conspiracy theory.
Your “college boys sharing a wank” observation is a great one.
Re: Adam and Steve

I just assumed that Dan sometimes changes names to protect privacy, and this was a clever wink at the possibility of homosexuality. Obviously it's from the homophobic anti-same-sex-marriage reference to how God made Adam and Eve, etc, but enough jokes have been made about it that I think it's a reclaimed phrase.
BDF@71 ~ You can continue to imagine all us guys jerking off together if I can still imagine a roomful of scantily clad girls pillow fighting. Damn! I suppose the next thing I'm gonna learn is that porn isn't real!
I don't know who told you guys that we don't get together in our silky nighties and pillow fight, but don't listen to them. This is absolutely something girls do, usually at slumber parties, and yes it usually culminates in us exploring each others' bodies and it's how most of us learn about our sexuality. Fond memories!
DonnyK @79 - Not to worry. Porn is every bit as real as WWE pay-per-view and the vile social and employment inequities that white cis-bodied males in the USA have to deal with on a daily basis, as documented by the Breitbart News Network.
That's an American fantasy about girls. Pillow fights while scantily glad. Good god, did it really ever happen?
Capri @74, humans are not volcanos or cyclones/ hurricanes. Not being an obsessive Kinsey fan, I don't really know his categories, and sixty plus (?) yrs after they were written, to me it's just got to be outdated and categorising our erotic/ sexual/ gender selves serves what purpose.
Don't you identify as they, having no sense of a defined gender? Did Kinsey accomodate for you on this scale, or it just doesn't cover those who aren't clearly self/ biologically defined. Or does it override your self definition and go by what's under your pants. You got a clit, right, over there with the women.
Oh, you said earthquakes, Capri. Same difference.

Speaking of Volcanoes, HappyBirthday🎉Dan.

Surely it was a Harvey Weinstein type who threw that slumber party image out there, in some sixties movie. One of those Giget movies, with Moondoggy, her sweet dark skinned beau.
College girls’ pillow fights are indeed real. Here’s a clip from a documentary about the subject:…
Lava @81, you're correct - I am androgynous. But gender identity is largely irrelevant to the Kinsey scale. It only evaluates one's preferences in sex partners. It runs from zero (exclusively heterosexual) through six (exclusively homosexual). Absolute bisexuality, an equal attraction to both physical sexes, is the middle value of Kinsey 3. I would never claim that Kinsey is the end-all and be-all for describing the range of human sexuality, but I think it's a useful form of shorthand for many of us to communicate our general preferences. Here's a link to the Wiki if you want to learn more:…

For me and other androgynes, yes the scale is a little bit difficult to use, because the sex characteristics I was born with (which I like a lot, and have no intention of changing) do not correspond with my neither/both gender identity. So I interpret the "hetero/homo" scale in terms of whether I tend to prefer having sex with those of similar or opposite parts. Using that interpretation, I'm around a Kinsey 1.5 - predominantly hetero, but I've had a handful of same-sex experiences based on personal attraction, curiosity, and the times I decided to say "yes please" rather than "no thanks" when asked. (Also, a few deep same-sex crushes that I didn't act on IRL.) I self-identify as "straight-ish," but someone else with my exact same preferences might self-identify as bi-curious, or heteroflexible. We're all entitled to self-identify however we want.
CMD @83, that's an oldie but goodie. RIP John Belushi, such an amazing physical comedian. Thanks for the belly-laugh.
*Gidget. Ok. Thanks, CMD. I don't think that fantasy picked up in Oz, maybe because our uni/ college culture is different.
You having a lend, CMD.. that's no documentary.
Capri, I haven't been interested in seeking out Kinsey's scale, and why would I start now if it doesn't cover every category. You go ahead though, and keep contorting people into numbers.
@EmmaLiz @49
> 'Sometimes I think being a young man is 50% your dick and 50% your place
> in the hierarchy among other guys.'

I can tell you from personal observation that it's also what being a young rooster, a young ram, a young bull, and a young buck rabbit is about. I don't have any observational data so far on fish or invertebrates, but at this point it wouldn't surprise me a bit if it's true for them, too (assuming you replace "dick" with the appropriate term...)

Capricornius @74:
> using the Kinsey scale is just like using the Richter scale to evauate earthquakes

Yeah, except earthquakes are externally measurable, whereas any given human's sexuality isn't. Therefore the Richter scale is precisely defined, and as the conversations here aptly demonstrate, the Kinsey scale is not. Everyone wants to argue about what "100% straight" means, and so on.
@62 Yeah, TMI from Dan there, lol. I've never done that either.
Ciods @88, point well taken - although I think the problem lies more with how people interpret the scale than with the scale itself. Kinsey is pretty explicit and objective as to the extreme points and the midpoint of the scale: 0= exclusively hetero-attracted, 3=absolutely no preference, 6=exclusively homo-attracted, with everyone else falling in-between, at various points along the spectrum. The difficulty arises when people want to add conditions that blur these objective data points - as you observe, usually to be more inclusive around what "100 percent straight" entails. However, BDF and I once engaged in an epic debate over whether Dan should be classified as a Kinsey 6 or Kinsey 5, since he was able to voluntarily experiment with hetero dating and sex during his teens. (Dan declined to chime in and offer his own opinion.)

Consider what would happen if we did this with temperature. The Centigrade scale also has three explicit and objective standards: -273.15, the temperature at which all molecular motion ceases, equal to Kelvin-scale zero and used mostly for deep-cold experimentation; 0= temperature at which water freezes; 100= temperature at which water boils. What would happen if people said "You know, I sometimes pour hot water over my tea before the kettle actually whistles, and it still tastes just as good, so I'm not sure why we get so fixated on the boiling temperature of water." Or, "I get really cold at anything below 10 degrees, so 10 degrees is obviously just as valid a standard for freezing temperatures as zero." Presto-chango, your objective scale just lost most of its potential scientific and real-world value, and became a completely subjective scale instead.

I have always maintained that the Kinsey scale is only a tool for understanding the range of human sexuality. It provides a useful shorthand for describing one's sexual preferences, and of course we are all free to self-identify however we wish. However, IMO the Kinsey scale is just as objective as the Richter and hurricane classification systems, with the additional advantage of allowing people to identify along the spectrum between the specified data points. For instance, I've had enough "same-sex" (in terms of body parts) experience to over-qualify as Kinsey 1, but I'm still largely in the "incidental" category and therefore not as bisexual as a Kinsey 2, who will regularly crave and seek out same-sex experiences while still preferring heterosex - so I consider myself a Kinsey 1.5.
@62 JyLckhart ,@71 BiDanFan, @73 Sublime Afterglow, @74 Capricornius, @83 CMDwannabe: I like the National Lampoon's Animal House analogy. Scantily clad girls' pillow fights and frat boys' wank jobs. Rest in peace, John ("To-ga! To-ga! To-ga!") Belushi. Capri's right---John knew how to nail physical humor (especially falling down from a second story sorority house on a ladder--Ouch!).
@91: Hopefully STEVED's "Adam" isn't a Greg Marmalarde---or a Douglas C. Neidermeyer for real.
If I had a roommate like TNAFT, and knew what she and her boyfriend were secretly doing with my undies, I'd definitely move out. Ick!
Okay---back to Finale notation for Orchestration 1, Scoring for Film & Television 101, and practicing my instruments for me now that my beloved VW has gotten an oil change and I have caught up somewhat on the comment threads for this week.
Have a great weekend, everyone---and Happy Kickass Birthday, Dan the Man!
Emma @79: Well, that is news to me.
In regards to STEVED, where the fiancee/BF of four years recently revealed shared sexuality with another straight guy; the advice wraps up by saying "Wait, what's the problem?"

The problem is, if the sexuality is harmless/not a threat to their relationship, why was this only revealed four years into a relationship? One of the issues that sex positive advocates often miss on is that ethical sexuality requires some transparency. And it's more fair to share this kind of exploration as you're getting to know someone, not just before you're getting married. STEVED, it's not unreasonable to want some time to process what it is revealed. For whatever the reason, if you don't trust him now or you have doubts... listen to those doubts.
Why should it be revealed earlier, A.J. Simon den @96? Do you reveal every past sexual experience. Or like me, do you even remember most of them. If it was an issue for husband to be, he would have mentioned it way back. If his tendencies were bi, why would he hide that, and then now spring it on the LW a bit out from the wedding. If he's that deceitful, then yes, call the wedding off.
If it was confined to their college time together and was as he says it was, then that's their past, no need to explain or apologise. It's the past.
stupid phone. *A.J. Simonsen.
EL @ 77
“Adam and Steve” is a fairly known term in homosexual circles and beyond.

Lava @ 87
Documentary it is, despite BDF’s sarcastic "scantily clad girls having a naughty pillow fight at a slumber party” and later “that is news.”

It seems like the need for such communal cis female emotional bonding and beyond, as EL@ 79 was honest enough to admit, has deep roots and turns out to be a life long ritual that knows no age limit.…

A.J. Simonsen @ 96
You may be right, yet the other way around is also a possibility: “Now that we’re getting married I should tell you that at some point in my life…”
I'm not getting sucked in again by another of
your * fake documentaries, CMD. If it is or has been or will be a behaviour American girls indulge in, locking lips thru the duck feathers, good luck to them.

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