Savage Love

Parental Controls

Comments

1
As a adult crossdresser who as a youth often sneaked into my mother's things, I wonder why you didn't tell mom just to buy a bra and panties for her son and put them in his dresser. She can then say to him that she worried about where he was getting things and leave it at that. That way, son would know that mom is accepting and that the avenue is open to discuss the matter, when and if he wants. If the son is a budding crossdresser or trans, I am sure he would love to have an accepting mother who would help him dress as a girl. If he is just wanking off with girly things, then he'll probably never bring up the subject. My guess is that he is a crossdresser or trans because of the early interest in mascara and nail polish.
2
Common interest or not, discovering that your father was into some kinky stuff with themes of incest, would be a jarring even outside the context of grief. Be gentle with yourself PARENT, you're in a moment of thinking about your father and your relationship and his place in the world right now. No one is going to take away your sex-positive card because you're a little freaked out right now, after you got an accidental peak into a private part of his life. Your father did the right thing by keeping the details of his sexual life from you. Do what you can to focus on your memories of him and your idyllic childhood and maybe try to do what you'd do if you accidentally walked in on a parent being sexual (i.e. shove this newfound knowledge down the memory hole until you have the bandwidth to deal with it.)
3
It's hard for a teenage boy to walk into a shop and purchase a pair of panties without extreme embarrassment and probably dirty looks by nosy cashiers, hence shoplifting. Get him an Amazon account and a prepaid credit card so he can order what he wants. This will show both support and acceptance. You also don't need to know what he is ordering or why, he just needs to know that he has an awesome mom that loves him no matter what.
4
Charles in Rhode Island @3 beat me to it!
The mom doesn't need to know what he wants them for, and she shouldn't offer to buy underwear for her son, because that will freak him out. But shoplifting is not a good solution either, not just from the ethical standpoint. Stores prosecute.

An Amazon account for the son is a great idea. If you have Prime for the family, that's perfect. Let your son know that he can use your credit card for purchases on Amazon and set a dollar amount under which he doesn't need permission or approval and you don't have to know what he's bought. In other words, don't let him make an unsupervised, yet pre-approved $300 purchase! Maybe $30 a month or so on a pre-paid card or account.
5
I feel for you, PARENT. If it helps, think of it like this. You had a happy childhood and a close relationship with both of your parents. Whatever was going with them or between outside of that was inappropriate for you, their child. So they protected you from it. They prioritized your needs, as parents should. You had a good father and in a while, when the disillusionment has abated, you will realize that he was an even better father than you knew.
6
This reminds me of a “me too” story I read on Facebook recently. A girl had every single pair of underwear stolen from her underwear drawer by a male coworker. Then when she complained about it he attempted to strangle her. Nothing was done about it so she switched careers. So yeah, don’t steal panties.
7
Uggh Dan, no reason to be rude about the LW's feelings with that sex positive sneer. She's grieving and dealing with unexpected info about someone she loved who turns out to be a more complicated person than she thought and who maybe also hurt her mother or was dishonest in his marriage. It's normal to have conflicted emotions about these things, and she's writing to you, so be sensitive and not sneering.

To the LW, here's something I've learned that helped me deal with things. You must judge your father as a father. Judge him in his relationship to you. You don't have to judge him as either a man or a partner. People are able to compartmentalize their relationships and their personalities. The fact that you were close to him but didn't know he had a kinky side or that he had affairs shows that he was able to do this. Consider him as your dad- not as a man or a husband or a sexual being. Once you can make peace with him that way, you might be able to consider the other aspects of his personality dispassionately, or you might decide that it doesn't matter to you anymore.

(BTW I know there is no gender revealed in the LW's story, but I'm assuming she's a woman probably because of my own projections. My advice wouldn't change even if the LW were a man, though, but it's hard to use she/he or gender neutral terms all the time so I just went with the female.)
8
Mirea's commet @5 was so much better than Dan's response to PARENT.
This shouldn't be about shaming the lw and trying to take away their sex positive card. Most of us don't like to know about our parents' or our children's sex lives, no matter how vanilla.
PARENT's parents didn't over-share; they didn't leave their porn lying around. Finding people's private stuff happens when they die and someone has to clean up and go through their possessions, and now that we live in an era of more explicit porn being easily available, more and more people are going to end up being confronted with the realities of their parents' sex lives.

PARENT, you saw your dad as a man, not as your dad, yet in life, he made a great effort for you to only know him as your dad, not as a man. You have two choices to help you, and both are positive:
1) When you think about what you found, change the subject in your mind, and replace it with a happy memory of your parents. In time, hopefully you will return to only thinking of your dad as a father.

2) Try to forgive your dad for being a human being, like others, who had a life beyond his life as a father. If and when you are a parent, you'll be glad to have the same courtesy extended to you someday.
9
@1 I dunno trannygirl as I've never been a crossdresser, but my guess would be that it's not going to be hot for a kid to masturbate with full knowledge that his mom gave him the materials to do it? Also I think her approach is correct- giving him privacy and telling him there is nothing wrong with the kink but that he needs to purchase the items. He's 16, he could buy his own bra and panties to use, and if he doesn't because of shame, then that's a problem right? It's a sympathetic problem, but one that would be good for him to overcome, right? Also I think it's probably just good for men in general to get over their shame of buying women's items.

Also how do you all feel about the nail polish thing? It sounds like that happened when he was quite young. It's been my experience of young children that most boys are interested in nail polish and make up because it's fun and costume type stuff to them, and they are only discouraged from playing with it by being told it's for girls. If you let them explore it in appropriate contexts just like you would with girls, most seem to go on to lose interest with age. And there are plenty of subgroups of men/boys that continue to wear nail polish and makeup without being interested in cross dressing or without being trans. Myself, I was involved in the punk scene in my city in my youth, and it was a totally normal thing for straight guys not interested in cross dressing to wear eyeliner and nail polish. Goth people too, etc.

What I wonder is how much well-meaning parents attempting to make sure their kids are accepted end up influencing thing. I have a friend right now who's tomboy daughter prefers rough and tumble play and doesn't like to wear girlie clothes, and my friend (her mom) spends loads of time talking about how the girl is probably trans and how she wants to make sure the girl knows it's OK. But she's five and hasn't said she's a boy or anything like that. I just wonder how much sometimes parents influence their kids. I had another that was convinced her son was going to grow up to be gay because he preferred those sequiny sparkly ballet shoes- I mean, what kid wouldn't like shiny bright things?

Etc.
10
Charles at 3- thanks, that's a real good practical solution.
11
LW1- An Amazon account suggested here earlier is indeed the best solution for a 16 yo into women's clothing's.
Buying in person can be tricky and embarrassing, and Mom buying stuff and putting in the drawer is quite terrifying.

Mom- take another deep breath…. It is very likely that your son has already tried on some of your clothes, though mostly because they probably were the only such garments available to him.
That bra in the laundry, as terrifying as it may be, is probably an indication that he is- at least partially- beyond that stage.

When you present him with the Amazon card have a nice conversation about respecting others’ belongings and privacy “at the home and beyond.”
Don’t go beyond that and don't shame him, he’ll know what you’re talking about.
12
EL@ 9
The way I see it worried mom of a 5yo tomboy and other well-meaning parents do not need to worry about anything beyond making sure their child has the clothes they choose. Enabling the choice sends a much stronger message of support than any “talks” and will help build child-parent trust on all levels for years to come.
Parents should try not to project nor be embarrassed of their child appearance regardless of societal norms.

Same goes to seemingly het-normative children. I have witnessed the politically correct couple forbidding their young girl to use make who grew up to be a heavy (makeup) user since her teens and still well into her 20’s.
The mom two houses up was much more relaxed, and despite the father’s initial reluctance their young daughter was smearing all kind of stuff over her face as a child and never used much beyond an eyeliner as she grew up.
13
I'm pretty grossed out by the cruel reply to PARENT. This person has been confronted with the fact that someone they loved was a more complicated person than they previously believed, at a very vulnerable moment. Who wants to find their parents' porn, even the most vanilla? Fucking nobody is who, especially not while grieving them. But it seems more important to Dan to create a narrative where Mom and Pop were happy, consenting, kinky swingers when there is really no evidence to prove such. Dad was into kink and had affairs, that's all PARENT knows, and that is an unequivocally fucked up thing to stumble into when you're bereaved AND have gone your whole life believing otherwise. Have a heart, Dan. Maybe compassion is more important than kink positivity in this case. Yeesh.
14
LW1, good solution re an Amazon account suggested by Charles@3, though personally I hate to give that guy any more money. Or give him some cash to go buy his own. I don't see a problem here, he can say he's buying for a gf.
LW2, yes. The things one learns about a father after he dies suddenly. The incest porn find would be disturbing, though he didn't act on it.
15
Dan described incest porn as being distressing and squicky, but I wanted to put out there for PARENT that many readers of incest porn aren't fantasizing about their own families. We just like the premise of incest as transgressive, power-laden and not-completely-consensual -- like reading about fictional teacher/student sex, or doctor/patient sex.

That's what Dan said in a previous answer to a related question:
LW:
>> My father views pornography that involves incest fantasies. I felt quite disturbed by what I saw—it made me physically sick—and I'm wondering if I should continue to have a relationship with my father. >>

Dan:

>> There are people who are turned on by incest scenarios—hypothetical dads seducing hypothetical daughters, fictional moms seducing fictional sons—who are nevertheless revolted by the idea of actual incest, i.e., nonhypothetical fuck sessions with their own nonfictional family members ... So what gives? It's the thrill of violating a taboo, not a child; it's the power dynamics that have been eroticized, not the parental dynamics >>

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Savag…
16
Agreed with the "give him a credit card/Amazon account" thing--it's also good for kids to learn how to manage that stuff before they get to college and get hit with fifty-seven different exploitative offers from banks. I would say be careful if he's stealing underwear from specific people (other than "mom because it's convenient") rather than stores, as that can be one of those indications of deeper issues, if I recall my criminal psych correctly.

On letter two: yeah, I mean, fundamentally it's none of LW's business, people's kinks don't define them, plenty of people (especially people who grew up before poly was a thing to the extent it is now) have affairs while still being good human beings. Thaaat said, while Random Guy Has Incest Kink is a fact I'm comfortable with, My Dad Has Incest Kink would not be, for obvious reasons over and above the general parental-sex-life thing (unless it was a son-mom or sibling-sibling deal, I guess). I mean, he didn't act on it, he may well never have intended to, but that'd require a bit of tequila and showering.
17
That said: the guy is dead, he never (presumably) made a move on LW or her theoretical siblings, so...I'd say she should put it down to "ew, I wish I hadn't known that" and have aforesaid tequila and shower; she doesn't need to rethink her entire relationship with her dad or who he was.
17
You can be the world's most sex positive person and still be squicked out by the idea of your parents doing it. Agree with Unicorn -- scolding is really not productive here.
18
Maybe your dad LW2 found a healthy way to deal with fantasies, he owned them. Unlike my father, who let priests into our home and they subsequently behaved inappropriately with two of my three sisters, acting out, maybe, unconscious impulses my dad had. Truth is, his private fantasy life is not your business.
The affairs, yes my dad actually died when he was entertaining a young woman in his hotel room, while he was in a nearby city on business, who happened to be a friend of my eldest sister. Lending her some books was the story, as she had attended a study group my dad used to have at our place.
Fifty yrs later, I've worked thru any confusions about him and my love for him stays intact, because, unlike the two men I had children with, he was a great and loving father.
19
Did anyone consider that the presence of a bra could have a far more mundane explanation, like he has a girlfriend?

Don't skip out on the sex ed. And maybe be sure you're paying enough attention that there aren't girls sneaking over. If mom is single, there's probably a lot of time when her son is home "alone", and maybe a visiting girlfriend had to make a quick escape...
20
Lava @ 14
Buying women’s underwear as a grown up man is embarrassing to many, let alone to a 16 yo. Also, 16 yo’s usually don’t buy lingerie for their girlfriends.

Funwithrage @ 16
I suspect he is stealing items from other women then mom. Sadly, it is a pattern I find familiar. The question is how to handle it.

Biggie @ 19
One can assume that if he had a girlfriend the mother would have mentioned it (and possibly very relieved, like I’m sure my mother was when I started dating.)
Also, 16 yo girls usually don’t throw their bras or any other clothing items in their boyfriends’ families laundry bins, quick escape or not.
21
It's hard for a grown man CMD@20 if he has been shamed for his behaviour. This boy's mother is accepting, and if this is a life long kink, then why not go for it with pride. When I've bought male boxers and singlets over the yrs, the boxers for male relatives, no body has ever questioned my purchases. Who says sixteen yr old boys don't buy knickers for their gfs.
22
It’s hard because of the attention one is attracting, the sales clerks who struggle (unsuccessfully) to hide a smile, and all those other staring customers.
It is also the thinking, “I know they know I’m getting it for myself and this is sooooo embarrassing.” Sadly, an approval letter from mom is not likely to make things easier.
“Who says sixteen yr old boys don't buy knickers for their gfs?”
I do.

23
EricaP @15 was spot-on with regard to incest fantasies. I don't think most people who have them have any erotic interest in their own parents, children, or siblings. It's the fantasy about hypothetical incest, the power-dynamics, the transgression. The person fantasizing may not even be fantasizing about being his- or herself in the fantasy, just "dad" or "son" or "mom" or "daughter."

I have father-daughter incest fantasies. I'm not attracted to my own father. In my fantasies, I'm not even me. I'm an archetype of "daughter" (and younger than I am now, for sure!) and the "father" doesn't resemble my actual father, nor does the dynamic represent our real relationship or dynamic any way.
23
The seen above is obviously my response to Lava @21
24
This: "Agreed with the "give him a credit card/Amazon account" thing--it's also good for kids to learn how to manage that stuff before they get to college and get hit with fifty-seven different exploitative offers from banks."

This is a FANTASTIC bit of advice. FunWithRage @16, you nailed it.

The conversation can go along the lines of, "this is an important adulting skill for you to have, so here are the ground rules, here are the limits, and whatever you choose to do with this (key phrase) is your business and we will not ask any questions."

Mix a few ridiculous limits in with normal limits (no live animals, no high explosives, monthly limit is $30, no alcohol or tobacco, if you want to buy power tools come to me first and we'll ask The Neighbours because they know which ones are a good value for the money, etc).

A 16-year-old kid who is curious about sex will find things that go along with being curious about sex. A 16-year-old kid who was as much of a nerd as I was will probably spend that on books. But LW as his parent knows what's going on, and it's a thing worth doing all of its own sake, not just as a fig leaf for getting him to not shoplift.
25
CMD, you are long past sixteen, and the kids these days! My turning twenty today yr old son and his eighteeen yr old gf are showering together and joking away, as I type. Would you have behaved this way at their ages, your mother sitting on the lounge, in a room, just outside? It's a small main house.. I was here first. Waiting on the daughter bringing the crazed toddler over.
Or, from the same son, a small film at school about homosexuality and homophobia, when he was sixteen, where he was one of the gay boys, and he got an A for it. You think this could have happened when you were that age. Projection is such a curse. And fuck those sales people, fuck em.
26
Re: undies in the laundry and shopping for women's things

I think it's possible there are other reasons why the bra is there, but since Mom doesn't speculate about any other reason and she knows who is in/out of her house better than we do, I think the most likely scenario is that it belongs to the boy. Though as Lava and CMD demonstrate, obviously different households will have different norms, and way back when I was a teen my main high school boyfriend did have the sort of house that lots of teens were in and out of and that we had sex in, and yes clothing could very easily have ended up in their laundry that his parents would later have discovered and wondered about. But they were aware of what was going on even though they weren't wholly supportive and accepting, so it wouldn't have been a mystery. It's possible this boy has a secret girlfriend or that some of his friends left it there or anything like that- parents often don't know what their teen is up to. But it sounds like this mom is not the sort that wouldn't at least have a pretty good guess about what goes on in her house.

But I agree with the shopping thing, as I said in my first post, and I simultaneously agree that the Amazon thing (with restrictions as NoCuteName points out) is best for this child. But I do think that boys need to get over their weirdness about buying girl things- just get over it already. I'm sick of this idea that girl things are bad or shameful. Women buy stuff for men without shame. Any man should be able to go into a store and buy tampons or panties without shame as well. BUT THAT SAID this is not a man but a boy who is potentially dealing with a lot of shame already and him being able to take total control of his privacy and sexual desires in an ethical and healthy way would be the first step towards eventually becoming that sort of secure and confident man. So CMD is better qualified to talk about priorities here IMO.

@CMD

Thanks for the very good comments on parenting kids without imposing expectations or shame. And yes, I think you put it better than I did, but that's what I meant. I think we can sometimes go too far in trying not to impose oppressive gender roles or heteronormative behavior that we end up doing the same in reverse- like a boy that likes nail polish could just like it because it's pretty and fun. Who said it's only for girls in the first place? To me, it seems like if you think that your son liking nail polish means he wants to be or dress like a girl, then even if you are supportive of that, you are still trapped in the same gender roles. It's always been my experience that most (not all) small under 6 children in general like (not exclusively) shiny pretty bright things and most kids like to dress up in play. To what extent these are girls' stereotypical behaviors is mostly about taught gender roles in my opinion so I agree with you that parents should just let kids be without shaming or projecting.

27
MISSCLEO you didn't have the right to ask your son if he was planning to use the panties to masturbate with or if he wanted to wear them. That's so invasive and none of your business. Of course it is your role to teach him that stealing is wrong but he refused to tell you why he wanted them and obviously you kept pushing the issue. That kind of interaction will just alienate him. Don't try to make him tell you about his sexual behaviours, that is his private business. You don't need to know.
28
Lava- Yes, I am way past 16, but I still shop. In none of my numerous expeditions have I seen a 16 yo boy shopping for women’s underwear on his own. The closest are probably HS seniors couples, and the boy often sits at the front while the gf shops.
I’m glad for your son’s achievements and the freedom he enjoys. That said, he made a video with some of his friends about gays, and even acted as one while everyone knows he isn’t. Nowadays he has a girlfriend, which is the norm, and his mother is ok with them showering together which is great.

The 16 yo boy at hand thinks that wearing women’s clothes is wrong, hence his deceptive ways. He is not likely to ask friends to help him produce a video about the subject. There is plenty fear and shame and we also speculate there is some compulsive stealing involved.
The way I see it, and admittedly projecting, he’s a lonely wolf and very likely a fairly terrified one.
29
6- Comment-- Wait, how did Co-worker steal the underwear? Had he been invited to her home? Did she complain to H.R. that he stole the underwear at a work-related event? Or was it in a gym bag in the workplace with the idea that she was changing after work to do something else? I can't picture how this one happened.
30
@PARENT -- Nobody forced you to read all his correspondence, nor to catalog his stash. Would you appreciate it if your parent, or your kid, went through _your_ vibrator collection? No, what you would expect them to do is to blush and put it hurriedly away. You'd be mad at them if they didn't -- and you didn't. He did a perfectly good job of keeping your nose out of his sexuality until death made that less doable. He was the same person you knew growing up. He isn't what changed; what changed is your opinion of him. Because you wallowed through a collection of something that by rights isn't any of your business.

Second, what people perv to when they are by themselves is not necessarily what they want in real life. (Also, don't forget those people are actors, all over 18 at the time of filming.) So don't go looking at him like he was a pedophile who was one drunken decision away from molesting his kids. Had he wanted to prey on you, he had all the opportunity in the world, and he didn't. You did not have the least inkling growing up. From your perspective, you WERE a normal family. But here you are ready to convict him of something he clearly never did to you.

Third, the arrangement that Dad may have had with Mom that Dan left out of his list of possibilities might well be that she abandoned her post, and he was doing what he needed to do to stay sane while not breaking up your idyllic childhood -- a set of circumstances that used to show up in Dan's column with such regularity that he gave up on printing them or responding to them. Maybe it would have been better if he should have left you and Mom right in the middle of that most excellent childhood of yours, in order to "follow his bliss" and go be the pervert you now accuse him of being.

People are probably going to start yelling at me about how harsh I am being. And they are right, I am being harsh. But it's because you are choosing to desecrate the memory of the man who provided you that "idyllic childhood." From your own descriptions, he provided you with only the best, and now you believe of him only the worst. The one throwing the memories in the trash right now is you.
31
@29 She has a roommate and the roommate let this guy crash at their apartment for weeks. Coworker might be too strong of a word since they are in the same field in more of a freelance type career, but I don't want to give out too much information. Point is the people who could have kept her safe did nothing even after she was strangled in public.
32
I must confess, I'm not agreeing wholly with Dan here, re. LW1. If your son is stealing, he's stealing. No matter the reason, and brushing it off is a step on the road in male privilege - but the Amazon account is a very good idea. He doesn't need to be shamed for any kinks,but he sure as hell needs to know that stealing women's underwear is. Not. On.
33
MISSCLEO... only issue that needs to be dealt with here is potential theft, and what getting caught for said theft would do to your son, which Dan spoke to. His sexuality is his, not yours. And yes, he is going to struggle with his sexuality, what it means to him and, and where he wants to go with it. That's par for the course for any child, let alone one with a kink. Your question about whether he was masturbating with women's clothing was way over the line, and it speaks to you likely having serious boundary issues with your son (as does your concern over his potential ~'sexual deviancy'). In the words of John Rambo... let it go... let. it. go...
34
LW 1: Your son is growing up and you need to accept that and let him deal with things in a grown-up manner. So:
1.) Remind him that not only is stealing wrong, it comes with legal consequences.
2.) If he doesn't have a bank account yet, he should. Get him a bank account, show him how to use paypal, and explain to him how online purchasing works.
3.) Make your son responsible for his own laundry. Seriously, he's nearly a grownup, he needs to be able to wash his own clothes.
4.) Generally respect his privacy when it comes to his sexuality. Gotta have some boundaries here.
35
CMD @20 re: Biggie: I think that was a good point. Perhaps she's not a "girlfriend" but a fuckbuddy or hookup. I've lost undergarments at lovers' houses and found items that were not mine in my own laundry. It is a possibility.

This kid is 16. Does he not have an allowance, or a part-time job, some means of having disposable income for things he wants? Does he not have a PayPal account? Is there an age limit for buying online? Lingerie is not age restricted. (I would go slightly off topic and urge Sonny Boy to buy from ethical online retailers if he is going to.) But yeah, the internet offers young people the ability to buy things privately, so as long as Mom doesn't open his post, he should be fine.

Lava @25: Your son was probably not embarrassed to play a gay boy because he is not himself gay. Your son and his girlfriend are not ashamed to be showering together because heterosexuality is not considered shameful. A fetish for women's lingerie still is, so I don't think your sons' experience is evidence that any 16-year-old boy can proudly walk into Victoria's Secret and pick out panties in this day and age.

TS @34: Wins the thread.
36
And they never will Fan, walk into Victoria Secret, or the section in a dept store, to buy knickers, if people keep seeing it as an issue. Cross dressers exist, this shame around it only helps to maintain it as something to be shameful of. He could say he was dressing for a screening of Rocky Horror. And how do you know my son is hetrosexual? He could be bi, or has bi tendencies and doing that film helped him accept it.
37
31- Thanks for the clarification. The way it read originally didn't make sense. The way it reads now is unfortunately all too ordinary.

34- Traffic-- You said it best.

Kinks? Okay.
Shoplifting? Not okay.
Stealing from someone he knows? Worse.
Privacy? Important as much as reasonable.
Doing own laundry? Paramount.
38

Steerpike82 @ 32
“If your son is stealing, he's stealing. No matter the reason, and brushing it off is a step on the road in male privilege”
I agree with your post, though not sure how male privilege comes into play here.

philosophy school dropout @ 33- it may not be fair to portray the mother in such a negative way, at the very least she is trying. It is also possible that some of the items she found in the laundry bin had stains on them, something she didn’t mention in her letter for whatever reason.
39
Lava @36: Fair point, I amend my post to read "heterosexual behaviour." The point stands that if he's taking a shower with his girlfriend, he's not gay.
You really saying that this kid has to be the trailblazer for all cross-dressers everywhere. Let him buy the stuff online. When he gets older and more confident he can shop without shame.
40
LavaGirl, straight or not, cis or trans, cross-dresser or not, whether buying for themselves or a friend, very few 16-year-old boys are going to feel comfortable walking into a store and buying women's underwear. Very few.

It's an awkward, easily-embarrassed age. I guarantee you they will feel uncomfortable: clerks will stare or smirk, or offer to help in ways that will be uncomfortable--or the boy will perceive them as doing those things. And with the existence of the internet why should they have to put themselves in what for them might be a mortifying position?

There are plenty of reasons a lot of people prefer to do at least some of their shopping online. Why insist that this kid do what millions of others with far less compelling reasons don't?
41
After my father died (more than 20 years ago) I found in his estate lots of kink-related stuff, sex-related correspondence, evidence of (gay) affairs. It was a lot more, and more kinky (not extreme, just specific) than I would have expected. I wasn't shocked, though, didn't feel revulsion or anything like it. If anything, it made me feel closer to him.

I can understand that LW 2 has more trouble coming to terms with it though. My parents were separated, so there was no cheating involved, and there was no violence- or incest-related stuff. Especially the incest-related stuff must be disturbing. But as others have said, that is probably about "incest" in the abstract "taboo and therefore arousing" sense and not about you or your siblings personally.

Anyway. Give it time, try not to freak out, and hopefully you'll be able to accept in time that your father was human and nothing human was alien to him.
42
@Lava, you are expecting a LOT out of a 16 yo kid to go into a lingerie store, or even the lingerie section of a department store, pick out a bra, and go pay for it. For all we know he lives in a small, conservative town in the American South where everyone knows everyone and even going the self checkout route could be filled with people he knows and know his mom. You are being unreasonable. While your son is free to and is comfortable doing what he wants in your shared home, that isn't the case for many teenagers. Hell, I'm 40 and a woman if I could buy bras online I totally would (sizing is too wonky at the larger cup sizes).

LW1 should definitely get him a debit card for online shopping and then stay out of his mail for the foreseeable future. And stop doing his laundry. My friend with kids old enough to do their own laundry makes sure she has more underware than everyone else in the family so they all have to do laundry first.
43
BDF @ 35
I suspect that a worried mother would have been slightly less worried knowing the son is having even just “not a "girlfriend" but a fuckbuddy or hookup.”
I’m very possibly projecting, just like everyone else here, and my guess is that as a lingerie enthusiast he may be wondering about his orientation. That and the fear of failing may stop him from pursuing any romantic/sexy time relations with others.

44
There was a recent discussion of Swedish Death cleaning--where people start as they age to get rid of stuff so when they die, the surviving children DON'T have to do it. PARENT's experience is a good reason why Death cleaning would be a good idea to adopt in the USA.
45
@44: Swedish Death cleaning is a great idea and I don't want to discourage it, but the point is to cut down on things you're not really using, and someone might be using his porn till the day he dies. People also sometimes die suddenly, far younger than that early old-age "death cleaning" commences.

We need rather to learn to see our parents as sexual beings and stop being shocked when we find the port-mortem evidence that they were just like us. Sexual interest isn't reserved for people under age 40, or childless people, or able-bodied people, or good-looking people. If you (universal "you," not you) can't handle the thought that dear old mom might have masturbated at some point in her life, or that dad wrote dirty letters to an old girlfriend, or that someone made a sex tape or owns a dirty video, or a hard drive full of BDSM or lactation or Hentai porn, then maybe when you're cleaning out your parent's home after he or she dies, you should just wipe hard drives and dump unopened the contents of drawers.

I have dirty letters from old lovers and sometimes it warms my cold, (nearly) dead heart to reread them. They bring me happiness and I'm not going to throw them away because someday, when I'm dead, my kids will have evidence (should they choose to open and read all the papers they find instead of merely shredding them unread) that once upon a time, I had relationships that had lots of good sex in them. If I knew I was going to be dead in 48 hours, yeah, I read them one last time and throw them away, but most of the time we don't get that kind of advance notice when we're healthy and in our wits, and in close physical proximity to our possessions to do that.

People should keep all important papers/things in clearly-marked files and drawers and boxes--stuff like wills, insurance policies, bank account info, family medical records, old (labeled) photographs. If you don't want to be confronted by the evidence that a deceased person had a sex life, you should be able to focus only on the items that are clearly labeled as being important to others. Then, if you find the odd butt plug or ball gag or dildo or whatever, just think about what someone might find if you dropped dead tomorrow and they went through your things. And give some grace and tolerance to their memory.

As for finding evidence of affairs--well, yeah, that's painful. But again, hopefully we can separate our parents as the parents they were to us from the men and women they were apart from us. They were flawed. So is everyone. I promise that no matter who you are, there's some part of your life you'd rather your kids or parents not know. So if and when you stumble on someone else's try not to stare too hard and try to remember that they were human.

Pro tip: don't open the nightstand drawers. Just pick that sucker up and heave it into the dumpster. 85% of your problem solved.
46
@44, BG. I saw that on fb and thought yes. There are diaries I've kept since early seventies and letters. Not things I want my children to go thru. When my son died, his gf gave me his diaries, and I've never read them and I never will. It's nice to have his heart thoughts around though.
47
Dan is right for giving the mother a big Don't Go There hit. However this young man's sexual life evolves, he no longer needs his mother's input. Past telling him not to steal and sorting he's got money/ cards. Xmas is coming up, the cards/ money could be an early present, so he can choose his gift. Unless her son brings a problem to her, she should keep her mouth shut and her focus elsewhere.
48
The boy will pick up his mother's attitude, if she's accepting. Maybe she could get online, join fetlife, read up on the kink. I'm sure there's lots of sites. If she's fine with his private sexual life in her own mind, no issue, his trip, then she'll give him the best environment. And let's hope he'll be a proud crossdresser one day and have no issue, going into VS and picking out the sexiest, silkiest pair of knickers.
49
I nominate Charles in Rhode Island (@3) the winner of the MISSCLEO thread. Agreed with @4 nocutename---well said!

Sending PARENT a big hug. Sorry to learn about the loss of both your mom and most recently, your dad. I love and miss mine very much, too. Some days are better than others.
50
MizM @ 42 re “sizing is too wonky at the larger cup sizes"
If you live in Savageville area you should consider visiting a U Village store. Not only they always treated me nice, a busty cister told me that’s her first destination when the need arises.
http://www.zovolingerie.com/

Lava @ 48
I’m afraid that once again you are slightly ahead of your time. Have we already decided the boy is going to be kinky, hence the mother’s obligation to check out the scene?
There are many shades to crossdressinghood and equating it exclusively with kink is a bit of a misrepresentation. Yes, plenty kinksters merrily dancing under that very same umbrella, yet this is not the inevitable sum up.

As for shopping, whenever I entered Victoria’s sic they were always very nice to me. I’ve heard the same from other male-borns.
Please be polite and considerate when shopping there and elsewhere. Never steal.
51
i haven't decided anything CMD, just a suggestion for the mother to read up on cross dressers. You think having knowledge is a bad thing? Sorry if calling it a kink is a limiting understanding.
52
Re Parent I had the talk about sexuality with both my daughter and son. I had to accept that they were sexual beings. They, of course reject the idea that their father gets to be a sexual being. My Miss N. has had similar discussions with them and made little progress. We decided to follow the idea of the "Friends" TV show that a friend of ours knows hat and where our toybox is and they must enter our house and dispose of same should we get killed in a car crash or somesuch.
Re C.D. When I was experimenting I attempted to shop in the lingerie section of macy's but simply could not go through with it. Ever since then I have been getting email from the vickie' secret catalog folks.
53
@50 thanks for the suggestion on the bra shop, alas I'm nowhere near Savageville these days. The good independent bra shop for busty women in my area closed down about a year ago.
54
Lava- you referred to cross dressing as a kink, then advised a mother who’s already worrying about her son becoming a "sexual deviant" (ain't we all???) to join fetlife, implying that obviously this is where he will end up.

Cross dressers often gravitate towards the kink, alternative communities since folks over there are traditionally more likely to accept them. Not that there’s anything wrong with kink, I happily indulge, but this is not the inevitable sum up.
Nonbinarism and other related forms of personal expressions are making strides into the main stream nowadays and can be incorporated in “ordinary” relationships.
55
In regards to online lingerie shopping- One of the better companies I’ve encountered is https://www.herroom.com/ offering a wide variety of items in an affordable way, fast delivery and free returns.
They now have a “hisroom” addition with traditional male clothes, but have always been friendly to male shoppers looking for lingerie.
In fact so friendly that they even dedicate a huge, informative page to male shoppers that includes fitting tips and lots of items recommended by other male shoppers
https://www.herroom.com/lingerie-for-men…
They also mention this in the page intro: “Customer service at HerRoom is always discreet and respectful. We trust that you too will respect our staff and their assistance.”
56
Lava @51: I have to agree with CMD. Joining Fetlife will probably send this poor woman into a panic. Even the ads are very explicit and represent fetishes far more extreme than her son is likely to be into. (And if he is into them -- that's really nothing for his mother to know about!) I don't think Fetlife is the best place to "read up on cross dressers." And anyway, I think reading up on them is probably premature, and almost definitely unnecessary. If the kid is a cross dresser or lingerie fetishist, that's none of Mom's business. If he (she/they) is trans or genderqueer, he (she/they) can come out to Mom when ready.

CMD @55: Hope MISSCLEO's son is reading your tips! :)
57
No CMD.. @54, I wasn't implying anything about the young man, I was suggesting she read. Educate herself. Ok, maybe not join fetlife.
Lots of kinks and fetishes are part of ordinary relationships. Fluid gender expression, non binary, cross dressing.. whatever the label a person affixes to themselves is fine by me.
58
Lava- one of your lines @ 48 read, “Maybe she could get online, join fetlife, read up on the kink.”
I assume you meant no harm, your liberal credentials never taken away, yet such line can be misleading and likely unhelpful to a fairly new comer worried parent, or anyone else for that matter.
59
Barf @ LW2's playboy + "men being men" comment
60
@50 CMDwannabe: Thank you for the U Village info regarding where to go for + bra sizes. I can rarely ever seem to get a good fit. I have a high school bestie who tells me mine "aren't all that big" since my recent weight loss, but thank you for sharing---it's good info to know, and nice to know that the proprietors are friendly and helpful, too. Great recommendations for MISSCLEO!
@52 sb53: No fair (to you and Miss N.) that your kids don't accept your sexual being. At least you get Victoria's Secret to browse through at your leisure in the comfort of your own home.

CMD, sb53, LavaGirl, et al. please email me when you can. I love to hear from all of you, and can share more over emails (in consideration to Dan, LWs, contributors, and commenters, I'd rather open more space for Savage Love threads).
XOXO :] griz
Congrats in advance to this week's lucky number recipient!
61
SB53 @52: Welcome back, good to see you again!
62
That's big of you, CMD @58, leaving me with my liberal credentials. In my mind, lazily perhaps, kink covers a lot of ground. Like with D/s, where the male is submissive. That's a gender fluid kink. Though, I take your point and will be more careful in future.
63
BDF @ 56
Lava used to remind us that we need to behave since young people from all over the world are reading this.
#sosorryialsodiditatsomepointinmylife

And thanks to you and all others who chimed in on the recent poly-related discussions. As a fairly recent part-time practitioner it was great to get your perspectives.

Lava @ 62
While submissive sissies do exist, liberal credentials fully restored and so on, a famous European-based “clubbing consulting nurse” reported seeing some dominantly-attired and acting-as-such cross dressers- using an umbrella term- in various scenes.

Dare me to spank you?
65
@63, CMD:👙👢🕶.
66
@45 agree completely. The idea that everybody is squicked out by thinking of their parents as sexual beings is fine until you're about twenty, and then it's time to grow up and get over it.

Just as parents have to get over being overly involved in their kids' sexual lives. When they are three, their genitals are your business, because you have to supervise them getting clean, and teach the kid not to masturbate in public. When they're sixteen, time to accept that they are sexual beings (as they have been all along, really) and you don't really get to have an opinion about it, except in the most general terms.

So, PARENT - your father was a sexual being. Accept it, stop worrying about it, get over it.

MISSCLEO - your son is a sexual being. Accept it, stop worrying about it, get over it.
67
Lava @62: I wouldn't describe men submitting to women as "gender fluid" so much as "gender transgressive." And yes, that's the source of its appeal to me. (Many domme women seem to like their subs as masculine as possible. All the better, I suppose, to physically embody The Patriarchy, which deserves all the punishment she is doling out.)

Hunter @64: It's reunion week it seems, welcome back!
68
Seen on a T-shirt today:

Today I’m a Unicorn

Tomorrow I will be a Mermaid
69
Congratulations to the winner of this week's lucky number!
70
@69: Wait.....me?? Qui, MOI?? B-but ....it said 70 posts when I logged in......?
I'd rather not acquire the coveted honor by default, unless that was the mutually agreed upon idea.
71
@63 CMD and @65 LavaGirl: You both rock.
72
Griz @69: Ha! Congratulations yourself! Yes, it appears that when comments are removed, they still contribute to the comment total showing at the bottom of the main column. You deserve the honour! :)
73
@60 Thanks Griz! Yes I am a little less stressed at work and will write soon
@61 Hi BDF Good to be here again. I take anti-histamines in our hot and humid summers which throws me off my usual routine and makes me very sleepy. Cooler and drier (finally) now so will stay in touch better!
74
@72 BiDanFan: I quote the cowardly Lion(ess): 'Shucks, folks, I'm speechless! Baaaaaaaaw....'
@73 sb53: Thanks for the emails and shared photos. I'm glad work is less stressful; no fun at all when it is. I LOVE your pictures--your glasses and frames rock the house! Are you doing any more stained glass windows?
I'm in Week 5 of Berklee's Orchestraion 1 and Scoring for Film and Television studies, composing (mvt II of Sea Symphony), and flute choir (C and mostly alto parts)---but will catch up and answer your emails soon this week.
75
I'm a petite feminine female who sometimes wears her husband's t shirts, I also steal his hunting jacket. Boxers too. Maybe I'm a cross dresser.
Best to give the kid an allowance and let him do as he please with it. He can go to stores or buy gift cards. Playing dress-up is a form of creativity. Let him express himself.