@96: Seriously----to anyone who openly tells anyone else that "We'd make great parents":
Unless you know without a shadow of a doubt that the person you think would be a great parent to have children with actually wants kids, thinks you're hot, and just can't wait to settle down with you and be your life partner, BACK OFF. You're pushing an irreparably disastrous situation. Anyone who doesn't foresee having children and has openly said so most likely won't make a "great parent".
My old conservative college friend became desperate at age 40 (I suspect that his older siblings, married with oodles of kids, and clergyman in particular pressured him quite a bit to "find a nice girl, settle down, marry and have kids already"), and basically threw himself at me once his health started to go downhill. Sadly, he must have misconstrued the finalization of my divorce as a sign that hooray!--I was suddenly "available". Worse, as time progressed (strange that he kept talking marriage but never actually proposed; no matter, I would have still said no), he'd say things like "I can just see our wedding!" giggling that we'd be 'fighting day and night'.
Right after I got out of a violently abusive, highly toxic marriage.
Then he'd go on and on about what he thought I should change in my life: cut my hair shorter and restyle it into a nice, neat wedge or wear up in a bun; wear more conservative clothes, sell my beloved car that's been in my family since Day One, learn to sew, cook, and clean for 50 people, join the Sweet Adelines, cheerfully convert to his religion, bear 10 kids, and live with someone I was not sexually attracted to who had an insane giggle that only his mother could love--For. The. Rest. Of. My. Life.
He was soooooooo ready for me to "file a paternity suit".
He informed my father privately that he had $70,000 in the bank (as what, a "selling" point? A dowry??). He acted testy over long distance phone calls when I wouldn't move back to Seattle, as if we HAD gotten married but had a little post-honeymoon spat back at the Motel 6; wifey went off in tears to mom and dad, but now the smoke has cleared and it's time to come home to hubby.
He deserved someone who truly wanted children with him who mutually considered him hot.
I couldn't help but wonder if instead of my being so irresistible--what was wrong with him.
Why did he keep hearing an over-enthusiastic Meg Ryan "YES!!" when I kept clearly saying no?

I have a deeply heartfelt hope that OOOPS sees and reads my comment, however lengthy, takes a good, close look at her situation, and gets a better idea of what she's in for in the long haul.

What caught my attention for letter writer 1 is this: "the important thing is that we love each other" and "I love you but I'm not in love with you" came from the same person. This combination of things makes it very hard for me to believe that she is invested in the relationship.

While sex drive might be part of it, do you really have to be turned on to give someone a birthday handjob? That sort of thing strikes me as minimal effort maintenance. I don't know either of the people involved but from this small scrap of information it seems like she just doesn't feel that his drives are important enough for even this tiny amount of pre-planned effort. I'm with the others who have no idea why he has stayed with this person.

@101: Agreed on STI concerns.

I (without evidence) think this is more an issue where the parties don’t communicate about protection at all beyond “is it okay” or worse, just go on ahead and tolerate the other party. I’d still imagine poor communicators as more common than explicit “pressure” to do so, but perhaps that’s a momentary spot of optimism on my part.

@103: “I'm with the others who have no idea why he has stayed with this person.”

Same as most of the dead-beyond-repair relationship LWs who think there’s anything to save.

Sunk cost.

@102: “He deserved someone who truly wanted children with him who mutually considered him hot.”

Eh, someone who wants to find anyone, just anyone to break and form into what he idealizes doesn’t deserve a gd thing.

Glad you escaped from that!

@77 @91 Lava

The woman wrote in to an advice column to ask what she should do. Therefore, yes it is Dan's place to give her advice about what she should do. As for me, my opinions are likely irrelevant to what this woman decides to do in her life, but I do believe expressing them anyway is exactly the purpose of this forum. I don't have the right to force her to do anything- obviously. I believe that every individual woman has full and final right to decide what to do with her own body, and that bodily autonomy includes deciding whether or not to continue pregnancy. I also believe that social systems should be more family-friendly (education, health care, housing, etc) to make it easier for anyone to be a parent. I've spent a lot of my life- personal and professional - working and advocating for those two goals. None of that changes the fact that it's my opinion that this woman is foolish and selfish if she insists on continuing this pregnancy, and I'm expressing that opinion in an appropriate forum. As for adoption, obviously that's a choice she could make too and I think it would be far less selfish to others, somewhat less harmful to herself, and only slightly less foolish. My main beef here is ideological, I'm sure- I think early term abortion should be completely free from taboo and moral hand-wringing. I know that's just my own perspective, but then again, wtf else is the internet for?

What you believe EmmaLiz is not important here. It would be important if it was you who was pregnant. And yes, I'm pretty sure every woman knows how very tiny an embryo is. Thank you for femalesplaining.
And no, to repeat myself, Dan or you have the right to tell a woman to have an abortion. Then you are karmicly linked if the person performs that act, especially if they find Dan's word to be very authoritative, and they later regret it.
An abortion is still an abortion, however small the embryo/ foetus is, and a woman has to face this decision as an adult, because this is her life and her pregnancy.

SOAPY (LW01)...This is my first try so if I screw up please understand. Anyway SOAPY...bail out, eject, punch out, GTFU! With the lack of response from her for improving or changing things it is not going to get better. Again, with the lack of response from her things will not get better! Do not fool yourself!

I've been married about 38 years and of those around 25 have been from sex less than once a month to now...no sex for the last fifteen years. When I first thought we had an issue I tried to talk to my wife. Explosion. "I'm happy with our sex" (it was just about 28 days apart since after a while I started marking my calendar so I was impressed how often it was exactly 28 days) "anyone that claims to have more sex than us is lying!". I tried to explain that the reading I had been doing showed that we should have probably been having more sex, maybe even a few times a week at least, and if we didn't try to stop this negative trend it would continue and it would go to NONE. I shut up for a while and as things got worse between us I would bring it up now and again...pretty much the same response each time. I was trying not to pressure her too much.

This is where in my mind things kinda get weird. We had done some swinging and other things before this mess. I thought we had a pretty happy sex life. I always tried to give her an out and always strongly urged her NOT to play if she didn't want to. She seemed to enjoy it and would at times make great effort to see and play with one of her friends. However I noticed that she was not staying within our agreed limits and she was not being honest with me about her lovers. She would make promises on doing thing with me (actually never kept) and or in groups and while she did play with groups it wasn't with me. Years later she said..."I don't think sex promises are real promises!"

I was a pilot (funny that) and she would play when I was out of town and when I was in town it got so we were not even having sex once a month. Kept getting worse and I suggested we see a sex positive therapist to no avail. She starting claiming she was worried about our lack of sex but there was alway a reason why we didn't have any...the kids, time...gotta do something. She said she was so worried about her lack of sex interest in me that she would talk to her primary medical provider, a FNP that was indeed female but that never happened and I assume that it was due to her knowing that wasn't really the problem. She had started putting on weight and me expressing concern about that was almost worth my life and yet she would rag me on my diet...I actually am twenty or so pounds less than when we met (I should lose about ten or so pounds and I'd guess she needs to lose about forty)...and yet she was free about ragging me but I dared not mention my concerns...which also are not just based on appearance but her family history indicates that being overweight is a real medical concern. I find it kinda strange that she is very critical about overweight women that are not as overweight as she actually is now.

Soo after all this time I'm looking at getting divorce, my image of myself stinks, I've gone from loving her and trying to do or correct each thing that was bothering her to pretty much hating her and not trusting anything she says. She brings up things in the past that in the past she had told me she enjoyed. I'd always tried to give her outs, make sure that she she wanted to do things and also tried to get her to use a safe word if she didn't want to do something but was concerned about the potential lover or my reaction. She claimed that she liked to be "taken" or a bit of being dominated but I wasn't going to go there without more talk and a safe word!

I've lost all respect and desire for her and I question why she could not have been more honest years and years ago. She at times not too long ago (weeks actually) would want physical affection but not sex. Claimed to masturbate some but I am pretty sure that is maybe twice in five years. Yet about six months ago at some of her urging I masturbated her to orgasm and I got the usual "we need to do this more often...". I've learned that means in about a year, All sorts of other issues now. We were supposed to go to a Christmas Party for her work tonight and about 36 hours before that she told me I wasn't going. I've volunteered and busted my butt at her request helping her with her job (I'm not going to go into her job but it does touch on politics and I've spent lots of hours involved with her on the political side and other volunteer activities... lots of work brownie points for her. I was supposed to help with a Christmas party for kids on Sunday including helping pack presents up Saturday and work at the party on Sunday. Up to whatever she told her work mates why I'm not there right now at the party we always appeared as a "perfect couple". I told her what with her not wanting me at the Christmas party tonight I cannot and will not help with the other party. Today I got a text from her saying that she is spending the night at the hotel and going down the the party site tomorrow...from what she took from her bathroom I am guessing she knew that before she left but didn't want to tell me. Anyway life is kind of a shambles. I had hoped to have one of those respecting each other divorces but I feel like I have been pushed into hating and not trusting her. I used to totally not understand those bitter men that hate their ex-wives (plenty of those in the airline biz) but I see myself becoming one...and I really, really hate it!

So in short...be smarter than me (and I used to think I was pretty smart and that some day...she would actually like sex with me again) but that was pretty darn stupid and I should have know better. I should also say I don't think in the last ten years of so she has had any sex with anyone else, when we moved her in 2003 she had made some promises to do some of the playing we had done in the past, again up her. She played twice with a guy we knew in the past (after telling me that she wasn't going to play with him), another one time deal that wasn't too bad and once with a guy I begged her not to play with since he was a jerk in several ways...bothered her for months after a one time deal that she said was pretty bad, not at all her usual type, a conservative jerk and cheap to boot (I'd bet a Tump supporter). I suspect she did it to bug me. One of our agreements was that either of us could stop or cancel playing due to the other guy not being right...either of us could call "STOP" but when I did she didn't. Another warning sign should have been her doing things with lovers she would not do with me...just a mess. Enough about me but please, please, SOAPY if you value yourself...get the heck out. IT WILL NOT GET BETTER!! YOU will get bitter and hateful! Not until this last year did I think I'd write something like this and yet looking back I am indeed not a dumb pilot but a stupid pilot! More than enough was out there to warn me, more than enough to have warned me years and years ago! Please, please learn from my mistakes. Get the heck out!!

pilot@ 109, I'll leave the dumb out, what a story. Thank you for sharing it. Yes, this LW should cut his losses, he and his gf are not sexually compatible.

One of the things I find very telling now was that when she had said that she would talk to our FNP she years later said that she didn't because "it might be too embarrassing" by that I assume now that she meant that more than thirty years of marriage going down in divorce was less embarrassing than asking a medical professional (she could have also gone to a new one rather than seeing our usual) a medical question...either very telling or she not too unlike her Mother really wasn't thinking things through and that some point I would indeed have enough. I have told her recently that I had not signed up to be a roommate I was supposed to be a husband. I also want to say that if indeed there had been an untreatable medical condition I cannot say I would be "happy" but that would have been part of the "bad" and it would have changed my feelings and actions. But like I said I think that either she didn't want to address the problem of her lack of desire for me or she knew that it wasn't a medical problem that a FNP or a MD could help address...all too many signals that I ignored.

The more I think about it my stupidity, obliviousness to what was going on and my well beyond "Pollyannaish" optimism, yup, as I keep thinking more about this...the more I realize that the signs were there in right in front of me and I was just plain stupid. I had read more than enough to know that all of her actions and inactions meant that there was no hope and that things, just like I knew in the beginning were on the way to the end I saw years ago. I try to recall this and other things to remind myself to be a bit humble and to be aware that all too often just being smart isn't enough. I had the information I just refused to either use it or believe it. (The arrogance of airline pilots?)

Lava @ 108
Your championing of women and children doesn’t necessarily contradict what Emma Liz, myself and others have expressed on this thread.
LW 2 comes across as an insecure person, and her own account details some assumptions that don’t seem to be supported in real life.

I still think Dan should have mentioned an abortion as ONE OF the options. If anything you enhance my impression that he avoided doing so because of the reactions that might follow. Imagine what the right would have to say if this is what he gets from a certified organic lefty like you.

Thanks LavaGirl, I've read and lurked here for a while and I just want to say I've got mucho respect for most of the regulars and of course mucho respect and a lot o'love from a pretty straight ( straight but don't care but celibatish but not by choice...) guy...okay...I have a lot of respect and love for Dan and it doesn't really matter what I think I am...except that I am a Dan fan. Just how long of label can I try to use and why would I except for the challenge?

Pilot@113, nice one.
Relationships, you gotta speak your truth in them, kindly, all the way thru.
And if the other person can't/ won't hear, then what's the point of staying with them? I say all this in hindsight, because like you I stayed in a dysfunctional marriage way too long. Enjoy your freedom, look after your kids and nice to meet you.

OOOPS, go talk to someone at planned parenthood. This man might make a good dad, he is letting you know he's not interested in becoming one at this time. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
Go talk to someone who talks with women about how to proceed with their pregnancies, all the time. They will assist you in making a decision. Don't delay this, hoping this man is ready for a baby. Because he's not.

@114 LavaGirl: Excellent suggestion for OOOPS to go see someone at Planned Parenthood. The counselors, physicians, and nurses there can help assist her in her life direction.

@112...CMD. excuse me. Is there a book, Certified Lefty, that I've missed?
You also being a man, just like Dan, not sure you'd know anything about being pregnant and having to decide, if you had doubts about abortion, how to proceed. The LW stated pretty clearly she has reservations about having an abortion. You guys miss that part?

I thought it a good idea Grizelda, not that I know much about planned parenthood.
Worryingly, somehow in my fb feed an interview came up with that Tucker guy..the Fox guy?.. Which of course I don't follow, us certified lefties know that. No seriously, it came up on some certified lefty thread, just can't remember which one.
So he's interviewing a woman who claimed to be an ex director at planned parenthood, and she said they had a monthly quota they had to fill re no of abortions. Could this be true?

Wherever OOOPS goes to talk with someone, she's got to put her big girl clothes on, and look elsewhere for support if she is going to continue with her pregnancy.
OOOPS, let romantic fantasies go, because pregnancy is a ride and a half and I won't go into labour, though by my sixth one I felt I'd finally mastered it. Then a beautiful baby, those first few days can be so blissful.
The noise and feeding start. Shitty nappies etc etc etc etc. and who is there to make the money? Yes. Same person. Big big job, being a single parent.
Adoption, well Dan knows the joy that gift can bring.
Abortion, only you know if this is the option for you, even with reservations.
OOOPS, talk to someone and soon. Good luck honey, be brave and be real with yourself.

@109,111 Pilot

You're not alone. There are plenty of stories shared on SL in which someone stays in an unhappy relationship because they can't, or won't, see how the partner that s/he fell in love with is no longer on his/her side. Hope drives the letter writer not only to stay, but also to rationalize the partner's bad behavior. How difficult it must be to get to the point you now find yourself wrestling with -- facing the facts you didn't want to see for years.

First of all, please realize that the mental work you are doing now is hard, but it doesn't mean you are dumb or stupid, simply that you were motivated to make things work for a very long time. Stop beating yourself up! Instead, be proud of yourself for starting to question, and to begin standing up for yourself.

Second of all, and I have no idea how old you are, but no matter your age, it is never too late to change a situation that makes one unhappy. Perhaps you will decide that there are many things about your wife that still make you happy (I'd be curious since none of them were mentioned in your posts), and you can live without sex. Or perhaps you will realize that even if it is financially costly to get a divorce, the freedom you will gain, the space to create a happier life, is worth it. (For what it's worth, your posts read like she may have been hoping you'd dump her for years. Seems like she keeps increasing the behaviors that will upset you.)

I wish you the best of luck. Be kind to yourself.

Lava @108: What YOU believe is no more or less important than what EmmaLiz believes, but you both have the same right to express your opinions in this forum. Just as EmmaLiz doesn't have the right to tell OOOPS to have an abortion, you don't have the right to tell EmmaLiz what opinions she can and can't post. You've each expressed your side, now OOOPS, if she's reading, needs to decide whether to take either of your perspectives into account.

Dumbpilot @109: Ugh, what a sad story. Don't beat yourself up too much; love makes people do all sorts of stupid things, and you made a lifelong commitment, so of course your instinct was to do all you could to preserve it. Good luck to you in ending this unhappy relationship and moving on to someone who's more concerned with your happiness too.

Auntie Griz @102/@115: Ugh, sounds like this guy got obsessed with you. Scary! Some people don't seem to have much of a firm grip on reality.

Lava @117: Many of us have reservations about doing things which in retrospect turn out to have absolutely been the right thing to do. If she doesn't also have reservations about being a single parent, she's an idiot.

It's got nothing to do with what I believe or what EL believes, Fan. The LW already told us she has religious issues around abortion. Why then would EL @13, hammer the girl about it and try to put her down as well.
I don't believe anything about another woman's pregnancy, it's her beliefs which matter.

Yes, I was born as a man and despite my best intentions and practices will never be pregnant. I still reserve the right to chime in and express my often-unqualified opinions here and elsewhere.

The abortion issue on this thread was first brought up by EL, whom we assume is indeed a vagina cardholder. Not that it matters. I think it should have been also brought up by Dan as, ONCE AGAIN, ONE (1) OF THE OPTIONS. He was asked for his opinion based on his status as an advice columnist regardless of genitalia, sexual orientation, hairstyle, or whatever.

Yes, it is a tough choice and of course the decision is LW’s and not mine.
No, I’m not going to discuss this issue with you again on this thread anymore. Feel free to have the last word if you so wish.

@120 BiDanFan: Maybe I should have seen the writing on the wall lo these many years ago when he and I first met as traditional post-high schoolers entering college. What amazes me is that we never had any sexual intercourse (although there were obvious times he'd wished, hoped and prayed--hint-hinting, but never actually said anything, and nothing came of it). It was like a sexless MaryKay Place / Jeff Goldblum college friendship (in The Big Chill). He'd throw himself at me like Michael on Meg, quite possibly thinking I'd be grateful while clearly not sweeping me off my feet. And it wasn't like I was about to get back to him by the third quarter of the Michigan game.

Lava @121: Why would EmmaLiz "hammer the girl" about not keeping an accidental baby? The same reason you're hammering EmmaLiz. Because she has strong feelings on the subject, which she's just as entitled to express as you are yours.
And I for one believe OOOPS's "religious issues" are a sham. If she were so religious, she wouldn't be having premarital sex so soon in a relationship. She's like a bacon-eating vegan there, claiming "religious beliefs" only when they suit her.
We all know that OOOPS is going to make her own decision here, and that she'll probably decide the fate of three people based on hormones rather than sense. But if she is willing to listen to sense, I'm glad EmmaLiz has spelled it out for her. If she isn't, good luck to them all.

Also, "the girl" is 30. EmmaLiz isn't bullying a frightened teenager here.

Griz @123: I've also had male friends who seemed certain that some day I would realise I'd been in love with them all along, though not to the extent of your experience. When Harry Met Sally has a lot to answer for, indeed.

@124: “And I for one believe OOOPS's "religious issues" are a sham. If she were so religious, she wouldn't be having premarital sex so soon in a relationship”

Sadly those of us on earth have to deal with the disparity that occurs in actual practice of these faiths. Sure it’s a sham, but from the state of worldly things, lying about unattainable ideals is obviously more common than people who are “morally” consistent.

@70 I don't know if I agree that every pregnancy is the equal responsibility of both parents for agreeing to sex without (adequate) birth control. I heard my own mother refer to warning my father that if he continued sex without a condom he was going to get her pregnant (with my older brother, I may have been deliberate). At one point I thought her references to my father getting her pregnant were kind of BS and denial of her own responsibility, but as I've gotten to understand her better, I've realized that her deference to men (even to her own sons at times) is so extreme that, while her consent was required for the two of them to enter into a romantic relationship, it would have been almost impossible for her to refuse sex without protection. She had a somewhat unhealthy childhood with a domineering and abusive (not sexually) father, which may have contributed to her unhealthy deference.

Between my father's machismo and my mother's deference/timidity towards men, those decisions were basically made for her.

DCP @127: Yes, those are exactly the situations I was referring to in my parenthetical @101. It's not just your mother, sadly. Women generally are socialised to defer to men, or at minimum, by puberty have experienced negative consequences of not deferring to men. Women don't need therapy-level low self-esteem to allow a man to pressure them into not using condoms; they just need one or two bad experiences serving as unpleasant reminders of what can happen if a (turned-on) man doesn't get his way. Also, our own bodies often betray us when it comes to doing the right thing; being turned on is one hell of a logic override.

Dan must have been feeling nostalgic when his last sentence included the hope that the man comes around should she end up having - and keeping - the baby. Whoa, Dan! You and the LW might both have been channeling sex and marriage roles from 50 years ago - when a teen got pregnant, she was sent away to an aunt's place for six months, during which time she'd give birth, then give the baby away for adoption, returning home as if nothing at all had happened. Or - when an adult woman got pregnant, the man did the honourable thing by marrying her, even if they weren't in love or even compatible, so that the baby wasn't considered a bastard (how utterly cruel) and the woman "loose" for having had sex and getting pregnant before marriage.

I get the impression that OOOPS - with whatever level of religious indoctrination - is still thinking that that's how life goes. She - poor thing - got impregnated (hey, how'd that happen?), but is already lost in her fantasy where they'll get married and be fabulous parents. Just one problem. It's not the 1950s ... and her fantasy-parent-cum-partner has taken off.

Now it's time for her to face reality. Even if she says she's against abortion for religious reasons, she should consider it on paper, listing all the pros and cons if she has one or not. Then she should list all the pros and cons of continuing with the pregnancy, if she keeps the baby or gives it up for adoption. If she keeps the baby, and has costed out how she's going to support herself as a single mother, she should start thinking of what she'll tell her child about WHY there's no Daddy. Would she lie and say that Daddy was killed before she was born because there's no way a good man would have deserted her ... deserted them. People used to make up convenient death stories to avoid embarrassment or awkward questions. In any case, I can almost guarantee that whatever excuse she makes up will end up hurting her child who will wonder why Daddy didn't love Mommy or the baby enough to stay.

@38 But I bet you took precautions re: not getting pregnant when you didn't want to be and I bet this dude did not. The letter writer is far less opposed to having a kid, and that's something a guy who apparently doesn't use birth control himself might want to ask about before placing live fertile sperm as close to her uterus as he can get it, repeatedly. Ya know?

@72 Say the guy had his shit together, which would include discussing abortion before having PIV sex. Why is he in a sexual relationship with someone who is not going to abort under any circumstances when he doesn't want to have kids? I honestly don't get why someone would do this. As a female person, I wouldn't date a guy who said he would never want me to abort. It's a recipe for pain, and in a guy's case, he's got to be a hell of a lot more vigilant than women do because he has (and should have, i.e. not advocating pregnancy or abortion jail) no control once a pregnancy occurs.

@128 I also have never met anyone who got pregnant when guys were actually using the methods of birth control at their disposal. It's always because they didn't use condoms + withdrawal. Those complaining about either being impossibly difficult, ask around, I bet you know plenty of people who use either exclusively or both, in LTRs at that.

@130 no: I don't think you read OOOPS' letter to Dan or any of my comments very carefully. There is one big, glaring difference between OOOPS' situation and mine: I never engaged in PIV with my male college friend and he never forced or pressured me to have sex with him, however much he wanted to. He became obsessed (as BiDanFan @120 aptly put it), wishing, hoping, and praying for something that wasn't going to happen with me. When that didn't work, he tried to pretend that we were married, insisting I help him live a lie, and that didn't work, either.
OOOPS got pregnant after knowing her guy only one month, and he bailed.