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800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
Stop it, asshole!
Interesting and varied selection (and no re-warmed SLLOTD--hooray!), and excellent responses. Take that, last week's READER!
Thanks, Dan!
That last letter reads as yet another amateurish attempted trap. If LW is indeed a woman she would have known that some of those men are likely to follow her, assuming they are going to get some more action. Yet she “pulled this on crowded trains a few other times,” no one ever followed her and no one complained as @ 1 suggested could also be the case.
If it happened to me while en homme I’d assume she is a professional who wants my money, though I doubt I could pass as the most attractive dude. I also avoid crowded trains.
Yes, Ms. Sex Offender -- even a cursory review of recent headlines reveals that you have a VERY fucked up attitude in this matter.
It's YOUR wedding. You control the guest list. It's trivially easy to say, "we'd like to have only close friends at the wedding, thanks so much" and send explicit invitations to Best Man and The Partner You Like. Explicit invitations WITHOUT +1 or +2 or +n.
If you do this, remember that sauce for the goose will serve for the gander and do so for all of your friends in poly or mono relationships.
And you can smooth any ruffled feathers with taking them all (including Partner You Don't Like) for a nice dinner somewhere....if it gives you a fig leaf to hide damaged egos and you can stand being around PYDL for an hour or so.
@TRAIN: Knock it the fuck off! Like Dan and others have already said, your actions are making subway travel less safe for millions of women, while making Shitheads-in-Chief like Trumpzilla look as though their atrocities against women are societally okay. IT'S NOT OKAY!
Take THAT, READER--indeed!
Steve and Dan---I also admire you both for your ability to stomach Twitter.
#metoo. I may be the only guy in the world to get fired for NOT fucking the bosses daughter, but it was still sexual harassment. I may be NFL big, but I can still feel pain and confusion, and fear; I can still be a victim. I may have a dick, but I still deserve some dignity. A page is turning right now, and that is a good thing for all of us. ALL of US. Don't fuck with my family lady...
I get the whole consent thing and agree with previous comments and Dan’s advice if your hot random dude had pulled away but your letter doesn’t read to me like you were forcing yourself on an unwilling person.
Never had a hot random guy rub against you in a bar Dan?
TRAIN sounds like a fake, I can see the tit rubbing.. straddling his leg, that reads like a male fantasy.
Damn, y’all are hella uptight. Of course, I personally would never do it to a woman, but having the tables turned would not be traumatizing, but more a pleasant surprise.
I’d be skipping and dancing the rest of the walk home!
I love women. I love flirting with women. This, however, was not flirting; it was as if a dog were humping my leg.
TRAIN: Ew ew ew. I like women and I'd be skeezed out if one of them did what you did. You're a creep. Stop that immediately. Stick to throwing yourself at men at bars -- men whom you've at least made flirtatious eye contact with first. Also, hello, think of the other passengers who do NOT want this kind of a show on their morning commute! Ew.
CMD @5: Indeed. Many of the porn-watching men Fubar @4 refers to would take this as an invitation to follow you and have sex with you. So if this isn't what you want, STOP. (Hell, even if it is what you want, STOP. You do NOT have these men's consent, and that's the only important thing here.)
Slinky @7: Good point, Drama Boyfriend would probably be a hilarious addition to the bachelor party.
Julius @15: Thank you for giving TRAIN a needed reality check. I'm sorry you lost your job over sexual harassment.
Spin @16: See my second paragraph. A bar is a far more appropriate environment for approaching someone and grinding against them than a crowded train from which they have no escape. How is TRAIN to know whether someone is willing or not? That's the point. She doesn't care about what they want. That's why this is an asshole move.
Aeros66 @19: Yeah, and I bet your fantasy involves being assaulted by someone who looks like Beyonce or Taylor Swift, not someone who looks like Roseanne Arnold, right? Reality may be different. This is the kind of thing that should remain a fantasy, or a roleplay with a previously negotiated partner, as Harriet @20 says.
On the other hand, I can also understand the commentors above who would find it hot. Maybe it depends on how subtle she is in her buildup to the "grinding". If she starts innocuous and only continues/escalates if she gets (non-verbal) consent and is discrete about it for other people in the vicinity I don't think it would be a big deal, really.
Of course, it could very well be fake and just a male fantasy (LG @18).
Also, know what else a lot of us aspies are uncomfortable with? Physical contact with strangers! (I personally have trouble with crowded trains and buses because of this.) TRAIN take note: plenty of guys absolutely don't want you rubbing on them in transit, even if they might have appreciated your company in another setting.
And Dan, I gotta disagree with you on the validity of the "what if you reverse the genders" thought experiment. Sexual harassment/assault is what it is; societal context doesn't alter the wrongness of certain actions. While men are less likely to be harassed or assaulted, we also suffer from the (patriarchal) expectation that real men always want sex.
@16: People at (certain kinds of) bars can be reasonably assumed to be looking for that sort of attention. People on trains just want to get home most of the time.
@20: This.
Some levels of heavy-duty, invasive, 'flirtation' MIGHT be possible. But if 'she' tried this it wouldn't pass in real life. She'd be at risk from anyone who liked her move, and from anyone who objected.
So what one might get away with at some parties is just not going to play with a stranger on a train.
I get that having to stand that close together and consequent flirting can happen a la #16, or deliberate assault like 21's experience, but actually picking out the hottest guy around? Either this is fake/exaggerated or TRAIN is oblivious to the fact that everyone around them can see what's going on and is pretending to ignore it. Or maybe it's something TRAIN wants to try and is testing the waters to see what kind of reactions she'd get. Whatever it is, it just doesn't ring true to me.
"I squeezed in next to the best-looking straphanger I could find, faced him like we were slow-dancing, pressed my tits into him, and straddled his leg. We were so close, my head was over his shoulder—I could feel an electrical charge running through his body—and we stayed that way until I got to my stop. Upon parting, I whispered, "You're very attractive." And he whispered back, "So are you." "
So much detail, erotically laden wording, claiming to have pulled this several times, and apparently never having had it go wrong (e.g. men pulling away).
A shame when these things slip through Dan's BS filter.
Dan overlooks one other important dimension--guys are assumed to want this to happen. If they object, they fear they will be "outing" themselves as gay, asexual, broken, etc. What will everybody watching--including other straight guys@--think if they see him say no???
Social heteronormativie pressure is real--even when it is being enforced on straight men.
But the realness doesn't matter. The realness rarely matters. What matters is that the issue is aired and thought about and discussed. In this case, the issue is, if a woman does a thing to a man who can probably be presumed to appreciate it, whereas if that same thing was done by a man to a woman, the presumption is not only that she would not appreciate it, but everyone would agree that it was wrong, is it still wrong?
I know that this type of question, or the essence of it comes up every so often (cat-calling, when a female teacher has a sexual relationship with a male middle-or high school student of hers), and it seems a bit repetitive and tiresome to those of us who've gone through it before, but it's an important point to make (actually, there are two points):
1) When it comes to male-female interactions, although equality is a desired goal, society has been constructed in such a way that there aren't true equivalencies and to pretend that all things are equal is not only false, but disingenuous.
2) Consent is paramount in all cases and situations, no matter who is doing (or wants to do) what to whom, even if you think you have reason to believe (see comment #16--and you may be wrong: see comment #15!) that what you want to do would be welcomed.
Ultimately, Dan's column provides both entertainment and education. The letters don't need to be real for either of those. This issue of equality and consent is, in my opinion, THE issue of our time.
Re: TRAIN, ditto BiDanFan @22 and venomlash @24. This is creepy and invasive, and while men who subscribe to the philosophy that people shouldn't have to establish consent before doing things to another person's body will be totally fine with this (and perhaps another subset of sexist men who only imagine women they find attractive in scenarios like this, not the total population of existing women, which inevitably contains a lot of people whom any given person doesn't find attractive), it's not okay at all. At the very least, you need to ask, "Would it be alright with you if I press my body against you and hump your leg?" but really, public transit is probably not an appropriate venue to be having sex with people, period (see also: restaurants that are not explicitly sex clubs, where a shocking number of people I've seen have decided it's totally cool jerk each other off through their clothes; if you like to have sex with an audience, get thee a consenting audience at a sex club or over a webcam feed).
Fuck you, Roy Moore. May you and your ilk die of syphilis slowly, painfully, and nastily.
As for the poly question: I was in the best man's shoes a while back. Good friend's wedding with fiance and girlfriend as a triad. Girlfriend ghosted us so it wasn't an issue anymore, ha ha.
And yeah, I agree with most of the commenters about the train later being fake. Regardless, it's a fun thought experiment. If that happened to me I would assume the woman was trying to pick pocket me or distract me while someone else did it.
@TRAIN: Have you ever been raped, harassed, and / or traumatized by sexual assault? Your random actions on public transit put you at high risk of finding out the hard way just how horrible such an experience truly is.
@28: Just get a room. But keep it to yourself, please. I don't need to know about your sex life.
I did “accidentally” brush against another body or two during those days, possibly more. It was never presented as blatantly intentional, and whispering stuff was out of the question.
Looking back at my “accidental” behavior back then I think it was certainly power play, imposing myself in an “invisible” manner, another layer in my secretive world where I’m the one in control.
Many of us mentioned the different dynamics and possible consequences once the genders are reversed as appears in TRAIN’s fake-or-not account.
Some male commenters told us they have indeed encountered such women.
Is this something women would have done more frequently if they could “get away with it” in terms of safety, social expectations, and such?
Is this a common fantasy/act of some sort regardless of gender?
Disclaimer: I’m not young anymore, possibly still stupid regardless, want to believe that my judgement has been slightly improved, and your assumption as to my current erection capability is likely to be true.
CMD @45: Thank you for your candour. See, many of us can admit we made mistakes when we were younger and more naive. To answer your question, personally, I take public transport often and while I frequently see hot people near me, it has never occurred to me to go rub myself against them. Perhaps if I had bigger tits... but still no. I think in a situation like Surfrat @43 describes, an encounter that starts with repeated flirtatious eye contact, striking up a conversation is an acceptable next step.
Lava @46: Zing! Love your wit, as always.
Skeptic @48/@49: Yes, that seemed to me an awkward way of saying "we are a straight couple who are getting married."
But I do have a fond memory, >20 years ago, of sitting down next to a really good-looking guy my age (early 20s) and then having the seat on my other side be taken by an extremely obese man. I got shoved up against Mr. Handsome and he didn’t move away. Sigh.
On a related note, I have a ridiculously hairy chest -- something that I was quite self-concious of for a long time. But as Dan says, "variation is the norm" and some women really like the Chewbacca Chest, just like some guys love Small Titties. I hope you can love yours.
Plus jogging must be way more comfortable...
Ed
I can report from personal experience that things are getting better and some, perhaps many people want to and try to understand and be respectful. But there are still a lot of ignorant motherfuckers running around unsupervised.
My guess is that you’re blunt like I am. You could let that work for you. When some dolt says or implies they think you’re in the closet, look them in the eye, say “Actually, no, I’m autistic,” and immediately exit the conversation and if possible the room.
Embarrassment is a powerful motivator to change poor behavior. The neurotypical go through life fairly confident in their ability to correctly read people. Being bluntly informed that the dolt is *that wrong* about someone may jar them into actually thinking before they speak.
Luck. You got this, and you are far from alone. There are a lot of us on Team Weirdo.
Fast Forward several years, I heard that several years later this woman divorced my buddy.
Being perky in my 40s, on the other hand, I've got in the bag.
Good fucking thing I'm seeing my VA PTSD therapist again on Monday.
Hugs and VW beeps, anyone?
All I meant in @60 was to add possibly another reason for you to celebrate your blessings. But otherwise, you're right---'nuff said.
@65: You and BiDanFan are very fortunate.
@72: DonnyKlicious: I know my posting at @68 is kinda cheating to get the big number, but like I said--I needed something to smile about. Thanks for understanding, and ouch about your broken rib! That can't be fun. I hope it heals up soon. Doctors tell me what I have is degenerative. I'm looking into what I can do cure it.
As someone with clinical anxiety this answer really annoys me. Unlikely to, but tough shit for those guys who are likely to, right?
Pressing up against anyone like this and you're likely to provoke a fight or flight response. Unsafe for both parties and completely unfair to the person minding thier own business on the train.