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So how should DQ broach the subject of deep-throat porn? Perhaps before bed one evening, DQ could slide up to her boyfriend on the couch with her computer and tell him she wants to show him something that she thinks is hot, and then let start her favorite deep-throat scene.
Hmm....
As for LW3, yeah, I'm totally with Dan - you're overthinking this, and you need to quit it right now if you want this relationship to proceed. If you aspire to be as much a feminist as you claim to be, just make it your goal to treat all women (regardless of their age) like ordinary people rather than like some special class that needs to be psychoanalyzed or categorized or handled with kid gloves, and you will do fine. There are countless reasons why this particular older woman might be just as interested in little old you as you are in her, most having nothing to do with needing validation from a younger man that she is still attractive and sexy - but I think everyone with an active libido loves hearing that we make our sex partners feel horny as hell, so don't hide that primal attraction from her, either. Just relax and enjoy yourself during the time you spend together, share your truths with her, and listen attentively when she shares hers. Everyone's got their individual preferences for a partner, physical and otherwise, but pursuing your preferences respectfully is not objectifying; it is often the first step toward building a fulfilling relationship.
Because I'm pretty sure he'd be OK with that.
But more mundane question, why is DQ discussing her porn preferences with her BF even an issue? Sounds like they have more general communication skills to work on before delving into the specificity of deep throat porn.
She's into deep throating and is simply wondering how to approach her boyfriend.
Maybe @ 9 is poking fun at the feminist: I’m the man hence I get to decide. That said, I may also be a bit worried about women who initiate.
Uhh....if you presume she's relied on her looks for a man's approval, that's about as chauvinistic as it gets.
MILF: I'm also 46. Men your age are just about perfect, and you sound just about perfect. May I join the queue? Don't worry about "objectifying" your new partner. She, too, has been marinated in "younger women are better" messages and the odds that she's not self-conscious about being past what society deems her best years are, again, infinitesimal. Feel free to bestow as many compliments on her as you like -- regarding both her looks and her internal qualities. One more tip: Please don't call her a MILF.
Cap @4: Agree with you on Dan's wonderful "manure" phrase. I'll have to remember that one!
Your letter says you like deep throat porn, not that you want to deep throat.
So, USE YOUR WORDS. At home. Write a short script with variations and read it in a normal voice so you've said it a few times in a few ways. Then improvise. Be sure to mention early WITH YOUR WORDS you like deep throat porn but have ZERO interest in deep throating (unless actually you were imprecise in your letter, and want both).
Also, women living under patriarchy cannot meaningfully consent to sex. Also, trannies are just men trying to infiltrate women only spaces where they previously could not go. Also, the only proper way to spell women is "womyn".
Because if we're going to take the people who say things like "rough sex is intrinsically demeaning towards women" and "objectification is always bad" at face value, we should be just as uncritically open to the other points they swore by their reputations on.
Well, that sentence made me perk right up. Listen LW, this woman, like all women, has lived her life navigating a society that judges her on her looks. How she deals with that is up to her. Some women rebel against the beauty standards, some lean in and use it to their own advantage, some navigate a middle course, some find their own path off the map. You second-guessing, criticizing, or "worrying about" her for the very qualities that you're attracted to in her - hotness, sexiness, confidence - is condescending and gross. You want to be a feminist? Support her choices.
Donny @18: *high five*
My original thought in response to Mr Savage's reply was to wonder how many gay men still do that? I don't recall ever coming across that many. In my experience, that kind of scorekeeping was most commonly a bi pursuit (and a likely brick in the wall of why B/G dating often doesn't work; Mr Savage has reversed course a little too hard on that count), though not even all that widespread there. And then I recalled that LW presented only as a man, not as straight, bi or OS. Shades of Arte Johnson's German character on Laugh-In; very interesting... I'm going to go for now with LW's being the kind of person who, not really getting it, thinks he can just presume heteronormativity, but I can be moved on the point.
I'll agree with Mr Savage that his preference could have been couched more subjectively/less "objectively", but wonder if there was a sentence or two edited out there. It could have been worse - and often is. But I'll still give LW3 a DYA.
I agree re the deprived village, though seems like they're a troll that should be left alone.
SO @ 19
I think there’s a growing recognition of LW’s feminism a-la-shmate’
Hm, I don't know. Not everybody wants to look at porn while having actual sex with real people. The answer might very well be no.
Also, even if DQ's boyfriend would like to watch porn with her, why is Dan so sure that DQ's liking porn with "rough and sloppy blowjobs" means that DQ's boyfriend "won the lottery"? Maybe DQ's BF likes to look at a different style of porn. I don't watch porn very often, but there are some blowjob clips I find hot. "Rough and sloppy" is a turnoff, though, and "deepthroat" leaves me cold. I like my blowjobs slow and sensual, both in real life and in porn.
He should simply accept that they (apparently) find each other hot and stop trying to invent reasons to invalidate what she actually says and does.
Maybe. It's hard to differentiate sarcasm and lunacy in written short-form. You need to add a ;-) if you're going for subtle satire.
Like our correspondent, I have been involved with older partners. I have gone through some analysis over the years and it turns out that part of the attraction is my own self-consciousness. I am not rich, tall, thin, nor particularly good looking, and thus am invisible to women my age and younger. Older women, however seem to set the bar a little lower, and I feel confident when I approach or am approached by them. Everyone wants to feel wanted.
CMD @25 and others, I agree that LW3 is not yet the feminist he aspires to be, but at least it is on his radar screen - he worried whether lusting after a woman who totally fit his "type" was a form of demeaning objectification, because he didn't want to do that. I think he is genuinely trying to do the right thing from a feminist viewpoint, so let's educate him gently rather than scolding him for his shortfalls. What drives me crazy are the young women - the 20- and 30-somethings - who make throw-away remarks like "Well of course I support equal rights in the workplace, but that doesn't make me a feminist." Of course, many of them have only been able to achieve their closer-to-financial-parity status (we're still not there yet) because of the feminists of all genders from earlier generations, who fought (and often lost) in order to give them that privilege.
Agreed. Few people here, yourself included, will be hired to run the white house communication team of the Wannabe administration.
Dan is not one of them as he’s the VP, the one to bring us the necessary votes to turn the south back into a solid blue.
LW1, seriously cut back on the thinking and reading about sex. Like to zero. Embrace feeling. That is what sex is about. Come back to thinking and reading later. For now, get comfortable with feeling.
LW2... 'hey partner, I'm a little embarrassed to ask this... (pause with shy, sexy smile), but will you watch deep throat porn with me?' Really, REALLY good chance he says yes, enthusiastically.
LW3, if you want to embrace feminism, treat your partner like a human being. Stop thinking about her as a woman. It doesn't appear to be doing you any favors. Think... what would this human like right now? Not, what would this woman who has lived her life under patriarchy want from this younger man who is sensitive to blah blah blah blah. Let her fill you in on the woman stuff, you aren't doing a solid job extrapolating for yourself.
I've always (been fortunate?) to be attracted to women my age. 13-year-olds when I was 13; 20-y-o's when I was 20, 40-y-o's when I was 40. Fortunate because one often hangs with their own age group and because I don't need to keep trading partners in for a newer (or older) model.
And yet, many people, not just pedophiles, have a fixed preferred age for their partner. For some happy few years, it lined up with lots of reciprocal attraction but then as age differences got greater, mutually-attracted partners got harder to find and land (but, Yeah for the Internet!, I guess).
I'd imagine both cases - fixed age preference and variable over time - are true for different people preferring older partners. Someone might have always liked 40-year-olds and always will. Others might want +15 years or 150% of their age and always will. The former might be one-and-done, while the later should consider a lifetime OKCupid membership.
I suppose he could ask her whether she agrees with this, although the letter doesn't leave much doubt about the existence of reciprocal consent.
If she agrees, he should stop imagining that she's spent her whole life relying on her looks to gain validation from men and that he's only perpetuating her objectification, unless there's an actual reason to suspect that. Even if there is, she can still consent to him flirting like mad and thinking about her hot bod, and in that case, he should respect her enough to accept her answer.
@26 sb53: "Dansplaining"--I love it, too.
Another good one for the archives, Dan!
@34 BiDanFan & @35 Capricornius, re: ChiTodd's comment @17: Agreed, and with Donny, too. I guess the sarcastic wit gets lost without a :) thrown into the mix for clarification.
LW, bull. Patronising a woman about how she has lived her life, assuming her looks have generated her good health and sexiness into her middle forties is so nothing to do with feminism. And much to do with whatever the age, there lurks the patriarch.
This woman has kept it together on her own Mr Feminist. Men appreciating her along the way is not the reason. Her good life choices are.
Pull your fake feminist finger out, LW, and show her respect for her full autonomy.. you are in her hands boy, so careful you don't get burnt.
I am pleased, though, to find that you think 32 an excellent age. I thought that would be too old for you.
As noted @1, it may be that Dan believes that DQ wants to deep-throat her boyfriend, which Dan thinks most men would appreciate. But putting that aside, surely Dan has answered enough questions from women who object to their boyfriends watching porn for us to accept that most men would be relieved to discover that their partner is watching porn too, whether or not their porn interests overlap.
LW2, godspeed, we're cut from different cloth. Don't see the problem here.
LW3, never trust a meninist. Your letter is smarmy and annoying.
@46 DC270: You're absolutely right----I have zero tolerance for meninists.
With MILF, surely we've all been in that state of such utter obsession with someone's body that we feel we can't think straight? Of course, we can think straight (hopefully); we should still be able to hear and respect their consent, and relate to them as a person, not a thing. But we do feel overwhelmed by desire. This is a stage--the stage of infatuation--in a relationship. After a person has got to know their object of desire better, possibly has consummated the relationship a few times, the feelings of relating to them only through desire attenuate (usually), and a more rounded relationship develops. I see no reason to suppose this will be any different in a relationship, which sounds as if it may get off the ground--may involve mutual attraction--even though it's a link-up marked by an age difference. The age difference needn't be relevant here.
Also, shouldn't MILF know his crush better before deciding that she's spent her life using her looks to get validation from men? She could feel this, or not feel this; and in fact her ideas on the question are likely to be a lot more nuanced than his. Let him get to know her better and learn her views before supposing he's perpetuating some iniquitous pattern.
But who said so baldly that 'objectification' was always bad? It's bad if that's all there is, just as a purely instrumental conception of an employee, of hired help, or of a family member or child, would give us pause. Did people ever say that it was invariably demeaning for a man to find a woman physically attractive, on those rather basic terms?
I'd actually like to think MILF is asking a genuine question: is my objectification demeaning my crush? But the answer is as has been eloquently given: depending on his whole behavior, of course, it's probably not.
At that point, younger women, for whom the goals of old feminism were obviously desirable, started to see new feminism as limiting rather than liberating.
The turning up their noses at sex work I see that. I was surprised to see Gloria what's her name, protesting sex work.
Who says we must wear clothes to cover our arms? Maybe some feminist junkies pushed for that, it's just not one I've ever heard. And not one I'd ever do. Our climate demands sleeveless clothes most of our year.
And veils? Who the hell told women they have to do that, unless it's for religious practices.
As for covering the arms, it's a Canadian thing. Here's a reference: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle…
Thanks Grizelda @48. With this man's level of maturity, my guess is she's after his young manhood, so he shouldn't worry too much about objectifying her.
A sideline about the rough & sloppy versus slow & sensual blow jobs: could circumcision play a role? I.e. if your glans has been desensitized by decades of chafing against underwear without a protecting foreskin, you will need a rough blowjob to get off because otherwise you won't feel enough?
CMD @44: Am I allowed to say that you win the thread?
Ladida @47: Slow and sensual is my only option, and I've been told by more than one person that I give the best head they've ever had, so RE's observations are seconded.
Hunter @50: Why is one person saying that watching porn during sex isn't his bag, baby, "all this hatred"? No one's telling you that you have to stop.
Harriet @53: But there's no evidence whatsoever that MILF should be lumped in with this bogeyman group of sex-negative "feminists". MILF is correct that #yesallwomen do, indeed, spend a lifetime being judged by men (and women) on their looks. I do not fault him for assuming this has affected Ms MILF, to a greater or a lesser extent, and to want to avoid being That Guy who makes things worse.
Lava @59: "With this man's level of maturity, my guess is she's after his young manhood, so he shouldn't worry too much about objectifying her." Bingo. You win the thread too. MILF honey, this woman is objectifying you. Enjoy the gender-role reversal!
RE @60: I've known many circumsised men who can get off with a sensual blowjob. He might need hands/lube, but he doesn't necessarily need to make his partner gag.
Thanks for this data point, it was just a possibility that came to mind. Glad to know that my cirumcised brethren don't need to be deprived of sensual blowjobs!
Esperantisto @56, this is for you: https://www.bustle.com/articles/170721-7…
For the record, I like giving both, but for different reasons. And I definitely feel as if there's skill involved in the slow sensual, whereas the rough and sloppy, while requiring more from me in some ways, takes less ability to achieve results.
If something is 'inauthentic' it does not logically follow that it is degrading. And just how does one go about degrading oneself? [I suspect one of these commenters will chime in with a doofus hipster retort to that].
The definition of 'degrade' is actually "to treat others with disrespect" so I am curious just what kind of weird Australian masturbation is going on here. Her masturbation degrades all the other Australians?
And how on earth can an orgasm be 'inauthentic' unless it was a fake orgasm? Are you faking with yourself to make your partner feel good?
This poor girl cannot leave her own room without mentally degrading herself with her own sexual thoughts. I think that is her real problem. She will figure out actual fucking in due time.
“CMD @44: Am I allowed to say that you win the thread?”
As flattering and tempting as it may be, I’m a person of principals.
Speaking of mocking, I'm sure Venn would have a clever, obscure name for the award I'd like to give the people who are making snarky remarks about feminism on International Women's Day. Happy IWD to Lava, Griz, NoCute, CMD, Capricornius, and all the other women and partly or completely female-identified people out in Savageland!
So you are here to explain what she really meant using your own select verbiage that the letter-writer herself did not use, because she needs you presumably? How big and so smart of you!
Just the type of doofus-hipster response I expected.
***
Ms Fan - I shall add Ms Hopkins, Ms Ods, Ms Erica, Mizz Lizz, Ms Sang, the missing Mme Sissou and Ms Rand to bring the collective up to an even dozen. A hearty "Chloe liked Olivia" to one and all.
Perhaps you would like to call it a Covett Award, for Barbara Covett, the narrator of What Was She Thinking? in the US and Notes on a Scandal in the UK and the film. In the novel, Barbara took occasional shots at what she called the "low-level misandry" of the insults to men to which her rival (for the status of Sheba's Best Friend) Sue occasionally resorted, or at faculty members who drank "women's tea", while also musing that the "Guardians of Gender Equality" would demand that Sheba (not yet tried for her affair with 15-year-old Stephen) receive the same sentence as a man. While it may not be an exact match to the type of snark for the situation, what seems to fit peculiarly well here is that Barbara (who is indeed quite covetous of Sheba) tends to direct those of her criticisms that might count as anti-feminist towards those female colleagues who receive any show of interest from Barbara's marks (if not Sheba, then Jennifer before her), so that Barbara's snark in these instances is self-serving. That might suit you.
I'd guess that my reaction to the LW is comparable to yours: perhaps he's over-refined, and maybe there are limits to his capacity imaginatively to identify with women, but it's good at least he's trying not to be an asshole. I would also agree with the perspective that there's invariably a difference, in political terms, between a man visually getting off on a woman and a woman getting off on a man. Unlike the female gaze, the male gaze inherits (or draws on or renews) a legacy of essentially dominative gender relations, where the power to observe (to lech; coolly to assess) was (and still is) one of the significant forms of structural male power. I'm sure Mr Venn will recall the scene in Hardy's Mayor of Casterbridge where Henchard vindictively auctions off his wife. Does inheriting this legacy, then, render men's visual pleasure in women, or their frankly sensual anticipation of fucking (a woman), questionable in itself?--just a way to objectifying or dominate? No, this is too simple; but, like you, I don't blame the LW for phrasing the question widely and for thinking he might have to second-guess himself.
I am very interested in the huge differences between how women experience life and how we men do. And this is In many areas not just sensuality. I consider myself to be an honest mature person and I really appreciate it when I am talking to a woman who can share her life and experiences. I sometimes divulge things that I think about, have read about, or have done, and most women appreciate that, some do not. Out of all these encounters over the years I have several women who are now friends but not lovers, and a couple who are both.
One of the "new" things I have to worry about is that I am getting close to retirement age. I worry that if I stop working I will stop meeting interesting people. I worry that the only folks I will encounter will be oldsters like me. I also worry that I will not be financially independent and will have to account to a wife who will "check the books" each month and want to know where every penny goes. I can see lots of opportunity for conflict there. I will have to contact
a lot of old married retired guys and see how they handle this aspect of things.
A hidden reference to Victoria, whom appearance and wardrobe I still cherish.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8QI0q6E…
Thanks for the story Mr Venn. I got lost and now have to go back and read Fan's comment and re concentrate on your comment. Hope it fits. That monster guy ain't wrong about his name. Not sure where the pope fits in. Is he a monster as well.. of course. He's head of all those pedophiles.
Personally, I'd rather simply have women all over the world have equality all year round than have a token day to appreciate them, but I guess we've got to start somewhere.
@LavaGirl & Bi: the nice thing about avatars is that when I see one belonging to someone whom I know will just make my gorge rise when I read his comments, I can simply skip right over the offensive comment--as others are free to do if I irritate them when they see my avatar. It saves me time and peace of mind and I just find there is nothing to be gained by engaging in any way with someone who spews bile-dripping garbage. I'd rather respond to Bub Boswell/Commenter Commutatus (or whatever it was)--at least he's civil.
@Mr. Ven: yes, lw #3 clearly wants his cookie.
As my new avatar suggests, I am lending everyone a tender loving hand from the bottom of my heart. That goes to the body parts in hand as well as all others.
I shall Austensplain this by employing the infrequently-mentioned conclusion to the conversation establishing Mr Darcy's standards for an Accomplished Woman, and Elizabeth's changing her surprise from his knowing only six to his knowing any. It took place while the Netherfield party were engaged in a game of Loo (a relatively simple trick-taking game, especially the variety in which players held only three cards and were required to head the trick if possible). Mr Hurst called Miss Bingley and his wife to attend to the game, and Elizabeth soon left the room to attend to Jane.
"Eliza Bennet," said Miss Bingley, when the door was closed on her, "is one of those young ladies who seek to recommend themselves to the other sex by undervaluing their own; and with many men, I day say, it succeeds. But, in my opinion, it is a paltry device, a very mean art."
"Undoubtedly," replied Darcy, to whom this remark was chiefly addressed, "there is meanness in all the arts which ladies sometimes condescend to employ for captivation. Whatever bears resemblance to cunning is despicable."
Miss Bingley was not so entirely satisfied with this reply as to continue the subject.
As for LW3, the hand-wringing doesn't go with the "hot bod".
Even though this girl is a fellow Aussie, she's eighteen and talking about porn. I don't watch it, preferring my mind's creations.
My introduction to an erect phallus was when I first had sex. I don't compute watching strangers bits going at it. And porn discussions often end in tears, as we see.
If people are getting back to you, I think I'm 'Mr Harriet'.
What LW3 should do, IMO, is self-contain his concern. If she's exploiting herself, well, he won't be her last partner, and he's probably better off getting his while the getting is still good, and let her "fix" herself on her time. Something I taught myself about relationships with imperfect people (the hard way, unfortunately): "You absolutely CAN change someone - just not into someone that you like". Enjoy her, be a good partner, and that's the best that 99% of us can do. Rescuing people from themselves is a high degree-of-difficulty maneuver and even people with PhD's in the subject have a low success rate.