Savage Love Apr 3, 2018 at 3:13 pm


Dan, why does GIG need to give a whole song and dance about delayed gratification and blah, blah, blah...? Especially when going down on her girlfriend or fucking her with a strap on IS giving GIG gratification in and of itself. The thrill of playing with her partner’s body, the psychic pleasure of getting her partner off is enough for GIG some days. That shouldn’t be a problem, but in the name of “equality” GIG’s girlfriend imposes a new tyranny in which one set of flawed behaviors replaces others.
edit, please: then you come home and she gets *you* off that night
To the LW, I'd say this calls for a substantive conversation with your clothes on, where you ask whether -- leaving aside your reciprocal gratification -- your gf enjoys "an oral quickie" or a quick fuck with a strap-on. Does she seem comfortable being honest with you? Are you sure she likes those quickies herself, rather than them leaving her over-stimulated and frustrated when you leave?

If you can get confirmation that she does enjoy the quickies, then it's time to start discussing loosening up the timeframe for reciprocation, as Dan says.

Also -- get a Liberator sex blanket to minimize mess from your squirting.

And think about other ways she can give you physical pleasure that don't lead to orgasm! More options on the table keeps sex more exciting.
I feel a need to speak up on behalf of the less-eager partner here, since my first read on this situation was pretty different than yours. To my eye, GIG's lower-libido girlfriend (LLG?) is already being awfully accommodating by usually being "game" when GIG initiates sex more often than LLG would prefer. So now GIG wants to introduce a new sexual activity that's (outwardly) focused *entirely* on LLG, the one who isn't even looking for sex most of the time. Being game for that occasionally sounds great, but I could imagine LLG feeling awfully frustrated at the thought of her limited interest being "squandered" on encounters where she doesn't even get to feel like a full participant.
I suggest you keep the surprise and playfulness of your plot because this can be extremely hot and may add another dimension to your relationship.
Do some general talking beforehand, like making her come in your regular sessions and assure her you’re ok without climaxing.
You can build up some positive tension the night before the act, like telling her you want to read her a love poem before you’re leaving to work or something along that line.
You can also schedule that special morning on her B-day or another special day for any of you.

When the time comes have her sit on a comfy chair. Move slowly, being too aggressive may make her cringe. Smile as you get on your knees and tell her she has nothing to worry about, you have a deep desire to make her come and make her day sexy. Tell her she can reciprocate later that night if she insists. Who knows, maybe she’ll also start initiating and surprise you every now and then.
This is great advice! I had a short relationship with someone a few years ago and we’d have sex several times a day – this hadn’t happened since I was in my early twenties. Usually, neither of us climaxed. We just woke up to groping and whatever else felt good or right from there and then stopped to get ready for work or whatever. Then we’d pick it up again when it felt good. Then I’d climax or she would, at some point. Then we both would when it was on both our agendas. The pressure to get the other off or get off for the other disappeared!
"what am I supposed to do about my fantasies of surprising her with an oral quickie on my way out the door in the morning?"

Nothing. Except wait 10 years.
If somebody surprised me with an oral quickie on their way out the door in the morning I would assume that I had died and gone to hell.
Sublime @1: Because Ms GIG doesn't understand that going down on her or fucking her with a strap-on is gratifying for GIG herself. GIG sees it. You see it. I see it. But Ms GIG doesn't see it, so GIG needs to explain it.

EricaP @3a / Ankyl @7: Yes. Ms GIG may have no interest in an "oral quickie." Many women are multi-orgasmic, and a single quick orgasm followed by... nothing... might actually leave her frustrated and lonely all day long. Talk to her -- and listen to her -- don't just present your case for why she should accede to your wishes. What should you do about those fantasies? What all of us with partners who don't share our fantasies do: fantasise about them. You've got a partner who's game for sex whenever you want; enjoy that three-quarters-full glass! (Also, women reach their sexual peak as they get older. Your sex life may continue to improve over the next decade or two.)
It's got to stay a fantasy until something moves in her. Hello. Why would she want to be all wet before work.. or does she have different hours.

What about pre dawn, she wake up to you doing it? Just when the light is changing?
To by pass her frigidity/ no sex drive/ never initiates position, you have to skilfully seduce her.
Waking someone for sex is strictly speaking a violation of consent. For couples sleeping together every night, the occasional slip up is to be expected.
I'm confused LW, you've slept with men yet call yourself gay. Aren't you bi? Then there's your other option.. see if Ms Frozen is ok with you going with men sometimes.
Lava @11: Dan has slept with women yet he is gay. People make mistakes! And sometimes horny people take advantage of what's available, and as we all know, that's men, not women. GIG is only 24, it may have taken her a while to realise she is a lesbian.

As for your posts @9/@10, really? In nearly 30 years of having sex, nobody has "slipped up" and landed face first in my pussy while I was asleep. This is an intentional act and you're correct that it is a violation of consent. Under no circumstances should GIG try to realise this fantasy by removing her girlfriend's ability to say no due to her being asleep at the time. That's not a "skillful seduction" for someone who has already said she is uninterested in one-way quickies. More coffee for you, Lava!
I'd also take issue with your words "frigidity" and "no sex drive." She does have a sex drive, it's just much lower than GIG's, to the point where GIG always initiates because she gets horny first. She says Ms GIG "usually" agrees to sex once GIG initiates; that doesn't sound "frigid" to me. This is not a lesbian bed death situation. It's your typical, garden variety, one partner hornier than the other situation.
Forgive me Bi, it's just a repeat scenario. Two women who are incompatible sexually from the start and then the higher sex drive one looks around for more action. Dur. If sex is important in any connection, then find someone who equals your own, at the start of the relationship.. what some magic is going to transform the less interested to never initiating partner into a Randy Lesbian Slut?
Being woken for sex sometimes is an age old clause in some marriages/ relationships. Surprise attacks can be seductive, for some.
When political needs (reciprocity as an inviolate principle) trump physical ones during sex... you are doing it wrong.
Lava @14: Are we reading the same letter? GIG never said she was "looking around for more action." She also never said they were incompatible. No two people are going to have the exact same sex drive. GIG is finding this situation unusual because in her previous relationships with men, she had the lower drive, and she's adapting to being the initiator. She'd like more quickies, sure -- but in most relationships, one or both people would like more of something. It doesn't mean they're incompatible, and there's no hint that GIG is dissatisfied enough to look elsewhere.

Sure, some people like to be woken up for sex. Those people need to consent before the fact, to tell their partners they'd like to be woken up sexually. Otherwise it's assault.
BDF @ 12 - "This is an intentional act and you're correct that it is a violation of consent."

In principle, yes.

I agree with Lava that in many relationships, broad consent is granted for such surprise morning sex, though it can be withdrawn on a case-by-case basis if one of the partners isn't into it that day. That was the case in all my relationships. Quite frankly, should a BF of mine not occasionally wake me up (or let me wake him up) with a spontaneous BJ, for exemple, I'd feel there's something lacking between us. Maybe this is not for you, but that doesn't mean it's not something others can appreciate.
Ricardo @17: SMH. Seriously, just because you like a thing doesn't mean it's not a terrible idea for someone whose partner has a low sex drive even when awake to spring in on them without getting advance consent. I'm not against wake-up sex. I'm against nonconsensual wake-up sex, which is what it would be in the GIGs' case, which is what we're discussing here. Not Lava's and not yours.
As the low-libido partner in a relationship, I think there's another reason your partner might be resisting this.

I'm GGG, I'll have sex with my partner even when I'm not particularly feeling it, because I love them and I want them to be happy. But when they want to just have sex with me and get me off, that's a whole different thing. Now I have to put on a show about how hot it makes me when actually no, we're doing it for their sake, not for mine. More importantly, though, I know it means yet more not-really-into-it sex later because my partner didn't get off.

Sex where my partner doesn't get off effectively doubles my not-into-it sexy times.

Maybe I'm projecting my baggage onto the low-libido partner, but maybe not. It might be worth asking if this is the concern, and if it is, reassuring her that you're not trying to double the sex you're having, just change it.
I have a partner who likes to give and not receive, and it stresses me out for two reasons. The first is the one you mentioned Dan, internalized feelings of reciprocity. The second is a bit more complicated. Sometimes my partner wants to have sex and I don’t. It’s much easier for me to give them pleasure than to get myself in the mood enough to orgasm. It stresses me out when my partner wants to give without receiving when I’m not in the mood because then I feel like I have to lie there passively and orgasm for their pleasure instead of my own. My orgasm isn’t for me anymore and that isn’t a pleasent feeling.
Your girlfriend sounds like my girlfriend, she just doesn't seem to think about sex on her own, but is happy to enthusiastically boink (or whatever) if I initiate. We've had several conversations about this but it just doesn't pop into her head on her own. Que sera sera, we still have sex whenever I want to. BTW, you don't have to always please your partner every time (as long as it all works out in the long run). See if she can adjust her thinking to "you got me off this time, I'll get you off next time" more or less... nothing ruins sex more than keeping a scoresheet. P.S. If this is the case, you'll have to remind her, "my turn!"

BiDan@12 ~ ..."nobody has "slipped up" and landed face first in my pussy while I was asleep"... Really? Happens to me all the time. Just walking along, happily minding my own business, and wham! Slip! Face in pussy. I wouldn't mind it so much if it wasn't for all the black eyes that follow...
BDF @ 18 - Sorry, but if you start a paragraph talking about your own experience, you can't blame us for doing the same in response to it.
Ricardo @22: Sorry, but it was Lava @10 who started a paragraph talking about something which she presumed universal ("For couples sleeping together every night, the occasional slip up is to be expected"). I wasn't making it about my preferences by using myself as an example of the fact that no, for many couples, it isn't. I'll choose to take your "sorry" as an apology, though, and accept it. :) I think the point is made: some like this, some don't; if in doubt -- and with a low-libido partner there is plenty of doubt -- ask for verbal consent first.

Thanks to commenters @19 and @20 for their takes. It makes sense that when one isn't in the mood for sex, being a passive recipient is worse than being an active giver. Sorry, GIG, it looks like what you'll have to do with your "getting her off quickly" fantasies is get yourself off quickly by thinking about how much fun that would be if she were into it.
I’m still a bit baffled by the strong emotions that GIG’s suggested playful and giving (IMO) plotted act generated.
What’s the harm in at least trying it in a gentle way, hopefully after giving some prior hints and water testing, backing up if the reaction is too strong and assuring gf all is well even if she rejects it?
BiDanFan @23 -- I think it's not yet time to give up on the idea, but a good time for more conversation about what GIG's partner enjoys. The pressure to come (or the frustration of only one orgasm) may make quickies unpleasant, but they are overdue for a conversation about what each enjoys getting and giving, in hopes of finding ways to mix things up a bit more and have fun together.

And, yes, discuss whether sexual touch when the other person is asleep is always okay / sometimes okay/ never okay.

CMDwannabe @24 -- you talk about testing the water and backing up if the reaction is too strong, and yet the gf has *already* made clear that "She STRONGLY opposes this." That's why posters are telling GIG not to push ahead with the plan.
BDF @ 23 - "and with a low-libido partner there is plenty of doubt"

I don't disagree with what you're saying generally (of course consent is paramount), but rhetorically speaking, how do we actually know that GIG's GF is a low-libido partner? GIG sure feels that way, because she always has to initiate, but if her GF generally responds favourably to GIG's advances, perhaps her libido is just fine and she's just not a very sexually assertive partner. Just sayin'.
EP @ 25
I was referring to prepping the gf for "an oral quickie on my way out the door in the morning," which gf is still not aware of.
I may have overlooked the “She STRONGLY opposes this,” yet don’t think GIG should give up right away. Maybe slow down now and gradually build some momentum for the future. “Assault” sounded a bit harsh in this case, I think it is more under “negotiating and exploring.”

Another suggestion is have the gf satisfy GIG with no reciprocation, signaling it is an ok thing to engage in.
@8/BiDanFan: I don’t think you’re quite seeing it. Dan is telling GIG to spin a story about delayed gratification (i.e., “I’m happy to give you an orgasm now, and wait for mine until later.”). That puts the focus back on to whomever is orgasming at that moment.

My point is that GIG is happy giving her partner an orgasm, without any thought of reciprocation down the road in so far as orgasming is concerned because performing oral sex on her partner or fucking her with a strap on is in and of itself, satisfying to GIG.

If GIG is going to have a sit down with her partner, I think it’s that explanation she should provide, and not one about delayed gratification.
Ricardo @26: The entire letter is about GIG's partner's low libido.
"Even though our sex drives are vastly different..."
"Her sex drive is much lower than mine..."
"...even though my drive is leagues above hers..."

As I've said in other contexts, if only "just sayin" something made it true.

(I'm not using the term "low libido" in any sort of medical sense, to clarify.)

Sublime @28: What I'm "not quite seeing" is any possibility that GIG hasn't already tried telling her girlfriend she's satisfied enough by getting her off, but okay, fact not in evidence. If she hasn't said this, then yes, she should.

I agree with the suggestion that Ms GIG could quickly get GIG off instead of the other way round. GIG has said her objection to this is that she squirts and it's a mess. I'm wondering -- and this is a question for the squirters -- does this happen with every orgasm, even during masturbation? If not, perhaps GIG can tell her partner that later on in her work day, she'll take a break and masturbate while remembering the morning quickie -- and, voila, she's had her turn to come.
BDF @ 29 - "The entire letter is about GIG's partner's low libido."

That's not true. The last sentence of the first paragraph and the second paragraph are about her partner's low libido. The rest - the crux of the problem, the reason she wrote Dan for advice - is about her partner not accepting non-reciprocal sex, which is quite a different subject. You're assuming, here.

"I'm not using the term "low libido" in any sort of medical sense"

And neither is she, really. This is all subjective. She feels her partner's libido is lower, but then she herself says "she's usually game once I put on the moves".

I'm not saying I'm right, but it's possible that I'm not wrong and that the GF merely has a different set of criteria to feel comfortable engaging in sex. From what I can tell, it's mostly their way to approach sex that is radically different.
From what I can tell, the problem is hugely mismatched libidos. GF never initiating is a symptom of the problem. GF not being up for a quickie that she can't reciprocate is another symptom of the problem. GIG has accepted and learned some workarounds for GF's low libido, namely, getting used to being the initiator. She is writing to Dan because she needs a workaround for GF's not wanting unreciprocated quickies. It's mostly their libidos that are radically different, and the mismatch has resulted in different ways of approaching sex.
BDF @ 31 - That's the end of the debate, then.
Ricardo: Whew! I'm not sure why there even was a debate. If you were somehow worried that if I were correct about GIG's girlfriend not being the type to enjoy wake-up oral, that would mean you had to stop getting morning head from your partners, let me just say that this is emphatically not so. I hereby grant you permission to receive as many morning blowjobs from your lovers as they want to give you. Now hurrah for an end to the hair-splitting.
I have an image of somebody with an ice cream cone chasing a person. "Eat this ice cream! I bought it and you don't have to give me the money!"
"I don't want ice cream right now."
"I'll feed it to you real fast, you don't have to do all the work of feeding yourself and it won't take long."
"But I don't want ice cream."
"Eat it!!"
Maybe it's just me, but I wonder if it's significant that LW is used to being with men. For most men, I'm guessing, a surprise NR BJ on the way out the door would not elicit such a diffident response.
I know, people are all unique and different ... yadda yadda ... but if she's treating her girlfriend like a boyfriend, she can expect some cognitive dissonance.
Dan's advice is solid, and I think LW may have another somewhat unspoken need here. LW writes, "Instead of super-long, super-hot lady sex sessions, I've tried to make things a little more one-sided." My lifelong lesbian brain immediately focused on the "super-long, super-hot" portion of that sentence rather than just the "more one-sided" bit. The bad joke that goes, "How do women know when they're finished having sex with each other?" holds at least some truth. When good sex is occurring between/among vulva-havers and bodies/minds are working the way we usually want them to operate during good sex, we can keep going and going and going and going while feeling really, really good! But regardless of the hotness of the sex you do hit a wall after some amount of time, and in my experience that wall is rarely in the same place or even the same time zone as your partner(s). It's not uncommon for one of us to feel "finished" at 10PM Mountain time but we're still going at it at midnight Pacific time, because orgasms.

In addition to the non-reciprocal agreements Dan suggests, LW may wish to open the topic of duration of sex. She could talk to her GF about what makes long sex hot, and ask what her GF thinks would make fast(er) sex hot. LW could describe a "fuck first" type of experience she'd like to try, perhaps before they go out to dinner with friends, or prior to some other time bound commitment. My early 20's lesbian self thought/felt/had somehow internalized the message that if we can keep going we should. This led to a lot of great orgasms given and gotten, but also a lot of lockjaw, carpal tunnel pain, stiff necks, and tennis elbow (after one especially enthusiastic romp.) Once I learned it was okay to state a preference for/inquire about others' interest in fast and hot sex as an equally valid alternative from time to time, I became a more well-rounded person who was in need of far fewer chiropractic adjustments.
In general and especially when my ex was manic, she often wanted to go down on me as I was leaving for work. This wasn't lazy-in-bed morning sex, this was little kids awake in the other room, me rushing to get dressed sex. I wasn't strictly in the mood but I almost always agreed to it. My mind was usually elsewhere and I very rarely came, but in the midst of some super-hectic, literally crazy times I'd have the feeling/memory of her tongue on my clit all day and that was pretty awesome.
smw @37
The bad joke that goes, "How do women know when they're finished having sex with each other?"

And how does that joke go? I couldn't find it with Google.
Slomo @35/@36: As a bi female, I agree with you completely. She's probably never encountered a guy who wouldn't jump at the chance for a quick, unreciprocated blowjob, and this is why she can't understand why her girlfriend isn't keen. I had a similar thought regarding the suggestion that when she's horny, she could ask her girlfriend to go down on her. As someone who was socialised female, the very idea of asking a partner to just quickly suck me off sounds supremely selfish -- this is probably why GIG's mind went to going down on her girlfriend to scratch a quick itch; this seems like an act of generosity, not selfishness. But to Ms GIG, the two requests might be equally "selfish" as either would be for the benefit of GIG and GIG alone.

Somany @37: Good observation. GIG may be thinking that she'd like sex more often, but they don't have time for marathon sessions "more often," so she'd be just as happy with a quickie, while Ms GIG is thinking that if they don't have hours to spare then why bother. On the flip side of Slomo's point, if Ms GIG hasn't ever been with a man, she might not see any value in having wham, bam, thank you ma'am sex.

Jayde @38: Another good point. Would GIG be satisfied with a quickie that didn't get her girlfriend off? If not... that's a bit of a double standard!
Fan, yes I did make a universal assumption about people who sleep together every night, and if someone doesn't feel comfortable about their partner initiating sex play, occasionally, while they are still asleep, then maybe they shouldn't sleep with someone else every night.
Can't women have a bit of wham bam sex with each other Fan? Surely a good tongue can cause a wham bam pretty darn quick if the recipient wasn't such a stick in the mud, worrying worrying about recriprical play all the time.
@12 Fan, I'm not talking casual sex here, I'm talking LTR where the couple live together. No, I've never woken to someone nibbling away at me, but I have woken with a hard erection against my back.
Those were the days.
@24, Donny. You're gf is not twenty six yrs old though, eh?
LW, it all sounds very dreary and way too much talk needs to go on with this woman. Save yourself yrs of bs and go find yourself a woman who isn't such a chore sexually, for you.
Correction , Donny @21.
Lava @41/@43: That sounds really victim blamey. No, I don't think people who prefer not to be woken up sexually should have to sleep alone! Seriously. I think couples should talk to each other about whether they like this or they don't. If both parties enjoy it, fine. If one person needs to be awake for an hour and have a coffee before their sex drive kicks in, that is perfectly legitimate, and their partner needs to respect that. I've also woken with an erection against my back, but that didn't obligate me to do anything about it. Cold showers exist. So does masturbation and so does getting up and making me a cup of coffee. :)

I would class an erection against the back differently from sticking your face in a sleeping person's crotch. One sends the message that you'd like sex; the other is sex. One leaves room for the person to say yes or no, depending on their preference; the other takes that agency away, and that's why it's, as you say, a violation of consent, if that person hasn't given a clear message that they'd like to be woken up this way.

So, thank you for clarifying @43 that waking to your other half going down on you ISN'T "to be expected." I rest my case.

Lava @42: Sure, of course they can, if both of them want to. (Which is pretty much the answer for everything, isn't it?) It's just far less typical when you've got two people, neither of whom is biologically driven to stop having sex once they come.
Amending @47: Yes, some women want to stop having sex once they have had one orgasm. And some don't have any at all. The word I used was "typical," not "universal."
We part ways here then Fan, because to sleep with someone every night, be there but only available after coffee is a tease. Might as well sleep in seperate beds, wake, have coffee then find each other for sex.
I did say occasionally. The LW is not a man so no erect penis to kick start some morning play, so how does a lesbian/ bi woman wake her female partner for sex?
Lava @49: Well, I'm glad you and I never dated, because partners of mine have been only too happy to get up and make me coffee if it means they get a shag out of it.

Really? The only reason to share a bed with your spouse is for morning sex? We definitely part ways.

One difference I can see is the presence or absence of kids in the house. If there are kids, a parent getting up may wake them up, and you lose your chance for sex. If that is the case then yes, sex might seem more important to me than coffee.

How does a lesbian/bi woman wake her female partner for sex? A considerate one doesn't; she waits until the partner can be felt stirring, then applies cuddles and caresses. A horny one might start in with the cuddles and caresses before the partner wakes, then proceed to kissing and groping once consciousness is established. I've spent endless anguished minutes lying in bed horny waiting for my partner (of either gender) to wake up so that I can put the moves on them. Golden rule and all that. Waking me up because you're horny is a great way to NOT get sex at any point in the morning; waiting for me to wake up and notice there's a sexy naked person next to me is a much better bet.

I'm glad you clarified what is "to be expected." If you'd phrased it as "your partner will sometimes wake up horny and want to have sex, that is to be expected in an LTR," I'd agree. Just going ahead and starting the sex without the sleeping partner's consent or even consciousness is NOT "to be expected." It's to be negotiated.
Wait... You're saying that you consider just sleeping next to someone means they get to jump you whenever they please? That saying 'no, I'm not in the mood' the morning after is a bloody *tease*? Christ Almighty.
To be fair. Yes, it is different in a cohabiting relationship. In that situation, maybe we didn't have sex the night before; maybe it's been a few days, and in that situation, yes, I might be happy to get right to the sex. A boner might be enticing rather than annoying. But I still need to be awake first. If you've interrupted my sleep for any other reason than "BDF, you forgot to set your alarm and you're going to miss your flight" or "the house is on fire" then desire is the last thing I will feel towards you! :)
BiDanFan @50, I'm with you (& sanguisuga) that just sleeping in bed with one's long-term partner isn't the same as prior consent to sexual contact. I'd emphasize that if the sleeping or stirring partner moves away from the exploratory cuddling, one accepts that 'no' without resentment.

And LavaGirl @42, I don't see the upside to insulting people ("stick in the mud") for having preferences about how they have sex. Don't date them if they're not to your taste.

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