Savage Love

Down There

Comments

1
Maybe LICK could extend foreplay, or kissing and hugging--whatever you want to call it--by kissing his gf's body, breasts, any non-abjected (in her mind) erogenous zone to the point where she is more likely to be genitally aroused. Even what I used to call 'French kissing', kissing with tongues in mouths, has been shown in studies to be correlated with women having an orgasm in heterosexual sex. When his partner is relaxed after this sort of non-shameful (for her) foreplay, she will perhaps be more receptive to oral, and may, in turn, be in a state of arousal that could allow her to come.

My sense from conversations is that a lot of people (not a love of Savage Love aficionados, sure, but a lot of people more broadly) do have these hangups about any kind of sex aside from PIV. The dick pisses in the toilet, the fanny likewise; and lovemaking is a base activity to be passed over in conscious living. Maybe the LW could gently tell his partner in abstract terms that this need not be so, and--as Dan says--try to follow her unconscious leads in seeing how he can help her shed her inhibitions.

FIST--no, your inner sanctum should not be tarnished by your doctor's stupid homophobia. Not drinking enough water is the most common cause of constipation. But you've had it all your life--you must know the mechanics and have tried the readiest dietary fixes. Water and not e.g. coffee to combat dehydration and lots of bran cure many ills. I laid out for myself the most stringent alimentary regimen as a bottom when I was your age (top and bottom of the canal), and have been able to follow it so that it's now second nature. Good luck with this! It is worth finding habits that work for you.
2
I feel like this is a good time for the reminder that physicians are not primarily trained as scientists. They're primarily trained to identify and treat illnesses based on received knowledge. Ideally, they will keep up with current medical research in the relevant areas, but looking to non-research physicians for info about human biology is like looking to a car salesperson for info about engine design (they'll know the info quoted by the manufacturer, but they're not engineers with deep knowledge of the underlying concepts or design).

I've had licensed physicians recommend multivitamins (bullshit - you don't need vitamin supplements unless you have a specific deficiency, and the lack of regulation of supplements means you have a higher risk of liver or kidney damage than you do of getting any benefit) and accupuncture (bullshit - while there is some suggestion that a small number of muscular or pain conditions can be treated with needling, the chi loci proposed by accupuncture are basically meaningless) for depression. Medical science itself is still in its infancy; I'm not saying don't trust doctors, but I am saying that it's a good idea to look to specialists whose knowledge you can audit (ideally they will have been trained with a scientist-practitioner model) for questions about any specific issues.
3
Hey LICK, if "her higher brain functions get in the way" use liquor, for Chrissake! That's precisely why it was invented.
4
FIST's doctor is homophobic and should be replaced.

LICK, I'm surprised Dan didn't mention this, but try using weed with your girlfriend. Also, maybe try either watching porn featuring cunnilingus together (if she likes or is okay with porn) or reading some erotica out loud which features cunnilingus, and then telling her how much you like it. Ask her if she's willing to try for your sake.
5
@3 :)
6
I'm not sure LICK's gf sees they have a problem. She prefers to cut foreplay short and get straight to penetration. Maybe she enjoys orgasm from masturbation and just likes a hard fucking from her partner.

Like nocutename @4, I think it makes sense for LICK to explain that he's not content with their current sex life, rather than making it about her satisfaction.
7
LICK's letter made me so sad. How awful it is that a woman could compare her lovely vagina to a toilet! :'( And intentionally having sex that's satisfying for him, but not herself. I wonder if she had selfish lovers in the past. I think this woman should see a sex therapist. The suggestions of weed and porn -- amateur, not staged -- featuring cunnilingus are good ones.

DIM's signoff is a good one. Why go into a dark room if you don't intend to have sex with randoms? To watch other randoms fucking each other. Live porn is hot! I'd also say, if he's bothered by the idea of even observing group-sex spaces, then he should admit it -- he's NOT "open to opening their relationship down the road." He should own his prudery and give his boyfriend the opportunity to leave if non-monogamy is what he wants.
8
LW1, FIST - Yikes! In addition to being homophobic, it would appear that your doctor is deficient in understanding something as basic as how anal tissue works. What other medical knowledge does s/he lack, that would be my biggest concern. For your health's sake, please find a new doctor you can talk to - one that you can trust to give you good information about your sex life, as well as your digestion.
LW2, LICK - I'm with Erica @6. It sounds like LICK is pressuring his wife to allow more fingering and cunnilingus for his sake, rather than for hers. He should ask her to let him do more of it as a sexual gift for him, rather than making it all about her having a hangup that needs fixing. BDF @7, I really don't think that a woman with an otherwise happy and healthy sex life needs to see a therapist, unless SHE feels the need to make a change. Everyone is different, and some women just aren't as keen on oral and mutual masturbation. That doesn't mean they are doing it wrong.
LW3, DIM - I did not get prudery from this letter, just prudence. But then again, I don't think monogamy and prudery have to be synonymous. DIM's comment about possibly opening up the relationship "down the road" sounds to me like he wants to take time to develop a greater sense of trust in BF and their relationship, before they consider any extracurricular adventures. Similarly, he wants his partner to talk about sexy things they can do together when they are alone and sober, whereas BF sounds more like the leap-before-you-look type. In fact, I think it's pretty smart of DIM to avoid embarking on first-time sexual adventures while drunk at 3 a.m. If DIM's more cautious approach makes BF angry and frustrated, then the two of them are probably not a good long-term match. But it hardly makes DIM a prude.
10
Cap @8: If LICK's letter had just said, "My girlfriend doesn't enjoy cunnilingus," no problem. It was her comparing her own genitals to a toilet that made me feel she had deep issues of shame regarding her body, which I think are indeed a problem that therapy could address.
I used the word "prude" for DIM because he wasn't even interested in taking a peek at the salacious goings-on, which I felt revealed a lack of sexual curiosity and adventurousness. I agree, monogamy and prudishness aren't the same, but DIM displays both.

Hunter @9: "Lecturous"? Interesting choice of word. I don't see a lecture, I see dismay and sadness. I don't know who Myd is, but if she is someone who, as above, simply didn't enjoy cunnilingus, then I'd have been far less dismayed and sad about her situation than I am about Ms LICK's. (Got a link to said discussion?)
12
Hunter @11: HIV is passed through contact with bodily fluids. Latex gloves should be sufficient to protect female fisters.
14
Jesus Fan, please don't engage the troll.
15
LICK, how can you say you have a good sex life if your partner doesn't enjoy fingering and pussy licking? Her rational re toilet doesn't cover fingering.. unless she thinks she pisses out of her vagina. How important are these activities for you and what is her reaction to giving you oral sex?
My suggestion is to call off the wedding. Sort this out.
16
Capri @8, it's not a matter of doing it wrong, not enjoying these basic sexual moves, it's that she closes his enthusiasm down when he wants to talk dirty and she likens these behaviours to putting your head in a toilet. How to kill the mood.
17
Hunter @13: Yes, it seems so. A quick google reveals a few references to her in comments made by you, or about your having a "feud" with her. She made some posts in 2014 about sweaters and enraged a few in 2013 with her comments on slut shaming. There is a reference to her "not being the only woman to not enjoy oral sex," but I couldn't find any comments from herself on the topic. So the swath she cut appears not to be anywhere near as wide or loud as you think. Now, your turn to find her fabled comments on cunnilingus, if you'd like for me to address them.
18
Hunter @9 The difference between Mydriasis and the current LW is that Mydriasis simply didn't like to be on the receiving end of oral sex (it did nothing for her as far as arousal goes if I remember correctly), but she didn't have hangups about her private parts being too "dirty" to be near someone else's mouth.
19
LICK-- Or here's an idea. How about believing her when she uses her words? She won't let you finger or lick her because it feels wrong to her. She feels pressured and can't relax because-- let me take a wild guess-- maybe because you're pressuring her? This is all about how much you want to see her climax, nothing about what gives her a satisfying sexual experience with or without orgasm.

Do talk to her during a neutral time, but tell her this. You know you've been pressuring her, are sorry about that, and mean to change. Then leave the ball in her court. Listen!

My guess is that you've putting too pressure on her, and by that, I mean that you've been putting too much pressure on her clitorus. She moans and feels pleasure, but at the same time, you've been getting too close to that point where pleasure and pain are mixed. It feels painful so she backs down and wants to get it over with. Maybe offer her that if she's not fully lubricated, you won't use lube from a tube and will instead just relax, make yourself come, and she doesn't have to let you inside her. No pressure.

You could have sex with her less often so that when you do have sex, it feels worth the effort, more of a matter of quality over quantity.

And stop talking dirty to her. Ewww.
20
Ms Cute - I'm guessing that, as surely as Mr Willoughby hunts, Mr Savage thinks it no longer necessary to push his favoured substance. His answer invites the inference that he believes the couple already to be regular users. I was grateful for the restraint; when he gets going on the topic, he reminds me so much of Catherine Morland discussing Udolpho that I am tempted to make the comparison to the exchange in which it's pointed out that little boys and girls should be tormented and suggest that, had Miss Austen been a regular indulger in Mr Savage's favoured substance, Henry Tilney would never have existed.

Touristy question - how would Mr S's favoured substance compare to alcohol in the consent conversation? Having never indulged in either, I'm a bit behind here.
21
Ms Fan - I just thought that didn't happen to match LW3's personal definition of hot, even if it did BF's. They may have enough common tastes to compensate. Or, perhaps it did, and that was why he didn't want to take a look - yet.

I suppose it could all be set up on a spectrum; I've known people who might raise an eyebrow at the couple's going to a gay bar, for those who are super-strict. At least here Mr Savage's suggestion seems a bit more palatable than when the process of energy absorption is more personal.
22
Agree BiDan@7, 1/2 disagree Cap@8 ~ It was, as BiDan went on to elaborate @10, "...her comparing her own genitals to a toilet that made me feel she had deep issues of shame regarding her body, which I think are indeed a problem that therapy could address." Also, In my book, sex should be about pleasing your partner first and she doesn't seem to be interested in even doing this rather basic, non-kinky thing because he likes it, and for me, that would make her a lousy lay. Seems like this could easily become something she could learn to like (or at least tolerate) if she could get over her toxic attitude. Girlfriend lets me come in her mouth occasionally (though she doesn't really care for it) and I appreciate the effort.

I guess the same advice goes for DIM. As long as ground rules are clear that they stay "monogamous for now" I'd say take one for the team and hang out with your boyfriend in the dimly-lit room just playing with him.
23
Women get to find cunnilingus disgusting and prefer a Hitachi. They are also allowed to value their partner's orgasm over their own.

Therapy doesn't work unless the person in therapy sees a problem to address. That's why I said that LICK should explain that he is unhappy with the situation, instead of continuing to try to convince his gf that she is sexually unsatisfied.

Like Mydriasis, I also don't enjoy cunnilingus, possibly because I was sexually assaulted that way as a child. I get to have my preferences -- and if a partner wants something, they should ask for it nicely.

Fichu wrote: "This is all about how much you want to see her climax, nothing about what gives her a satisfying sexual experience with or without orgasm."

Exactly.
24
Agree with @7BiDanFan's comment about sex therapy. It would be useful to have a person with no personal stake in GF's sex life with whom to work through this. A partner can be very helpful, of course, and I say that as a woman coming from a background that gave me all sorts of hangups. However, at the end of the day, a partner has their own horse in the race. I think it would be good for GF to figure out what she enjoys, what she doesn't, and what is just internalized shame.

There's nothing inherently wrong with saying, "Oral isn't for me." (Obviously this could be an insurmountable problem of compatibility with her BF.) On the other hand, liking oral but being too ashamed to enjoy it is really sad.
25
@15 Lavagirl wrote ".. unless she thinks she pisses out of her vagina. "
While you might have written this in jest, this is actually a common misconception. My daughter came home from school discussing how kidney stones were much more painful for men since the opening for the stones to come out was smaller. Apparently, in health class they were discussing urinary tract and sexual reproductive organs. NO one had bothered to tell them that women also have a urethra!
27
FIST should consider finding a new doctor if only for this:
"I've also had constipation problems all my life. Question: I saw my doctor recently, and he tried to link my enjoyment of anal sex to my constipation."

Unless FIST has been having anal sex his entire life, there is no reason to link the two, and therefore his doctor is a moron. And if FIST *has* been having anal sex his entire life, then that raises a whole new set of questions that his doctor is ignoring in favor of being judgy. Either way, I'd be looking for a new doctor.
28
FIST,
Try 250mg of magnesium oxide with each meal. It's a natural stool softener and aids in the absorption of calcium.
30
@6. Erica. I don't think the LW's fiancee is at a point where she can say, 'I don't always want an orgasm during sex'.

I'd agree that it can be unreasonable to require it of women. Women can find it harder to come, on average, than men; LICK's fiancee may want to have PIV sex without coming, with a degree of friction he finds unusual; or she may primarily want to please him, in terms of physical pleasure, by fucking at times or a frequency that's good for him. All these would be fine; and her lack of interest in her own orgasms should absolutely not be pathologised.

But I feel something else is going on here. Sex would seem for her a topic that can't be talked about--unlike (one would hope) whether they want kids, where their kids are going to school, which (if either) will push on with their career, where they're spending Christmas.... If this is the case, I can't think it bodes well for their marriage; and my sense is that there would be a benefit for her learning to say what she wants, fears or dislikes in sex.
31
@19. Fichu. Isn't the LW's fiancee repressed? If she isn't, then no one is (on his account). The idea that people are repressed--that an Evangelical culture makes us ashamed of our own bodies--would no longer seem to have any purchase. We know that she enjoys cunnilingus when she's disinhibited.
32
Re: LW3 — I can see plenty of monogamous reasons for wanting to check out the back room. Pure curiosity, for one thing, if one has never seen such a thing. Some voyeuristic thrills to rev up the engines back in the hotel room. Or even, if one has an exhibitionistic curiosity, to be watched while engaging solely with each other.
33
EricaP @23: I'm sorry that happened to you, and I'm sorry it's affected your enjoyment of something which can be a beautiful experience.

If Ms LICK does have similar traumas in her past, she should tell LICK -- that's an extenuating circumstance. But if her current enjoyment of sex is indeed being affected by her past, that's all the more reason to discuss it with a therapist.

Dadddy @26: You're absolutely right. Fichu herself didn't listen, she only projected her own preferences. I don't know how LICK is managing to somehow overcome his girlfriend's mental blocks, but he should keep doing whatever it is; it's working! I think the rushed PIV is a separate issue. That could just be a case of her not really being in the mood for sex in the first place, and wanting to accommodate LICK with some maintenance sex that's over quickly and doesn't require her to be turned on. Up to LICK whether he prefers that to being told "no, some other time."
34
BiDanFan -- people are different. I have lots of fun sex and I don't feel sad about not liking what I don't like. I don't like liver, and I'm not sad about that either. Furthermore, an intense flogging can be a beautiful experience too, but I don't go around feeling sorry for people who don't experience it as beautiful.

All that said, I appreciate your supportive words regarding the assault I experienced.

Therapy might benefit their relationship, but only if she goes into it wanting something to change. Currently, she doesn't seem motivated to change, so that's why I keep saying that LICK should emphasize that he feels unsatisfied with their sex life. Give her a sincere reason to want to change. Lecturing people about what they ought to enjoy if they weren't so repressed -- good luck with that.
36
is there indication in LICK's letter that his wife to be was sexually abused, and that's why she resists these sexual behaviours. Not that I can see. Whatever the reason, these two seem incompatible, if the LW wants a sexual life where fingering and licking pussy are freely and enthusiastically agreed to by his partner.
37
LavaGirl -- I'm not saying she was sexually abused (though I was, and people don't always talk about it). I'm saying that she gets to have sexual preferences without being told she's wrong for her preferences. Her reason for finding cunnilingus disgusting is her own business and she gets to have her sexual preferences.

As to whether they're sexually incompatible, that's something they need to discuss. How important are these sex acts to him? Is she willing to try therapy to change her feelings about those sex acts? Now is the time for them to have these conversations.

My point is still that he gets to ask for what he wants but he'd be better off starting from what he wants rather than telling her how she is supposed to feel about these sex acts.
38
Yes Erica, I agree with you. It's his desire to have these experiences with her, and he does need to own that. And yes, we all get to have sexual preferences which we don't have to justify to others, and yes again, they need to talk.
Maybe he's a lousy fingerer and pussy licker and she's pretended to come to get it over with. They need to talk about this before any marriage takes place.
I am sorry Erica, that you and marilynsue @29 were violated.
39
@19 that's a lot of conjecture...
40
Hey LICK, I know not everyone is kinky, but consider a little light sub/dom angle. My wife is also hung up about her body and sexuality in a lot of ways, one way to work around that is to take control out of her hands. Get her permission in advance of course, and make sure you have a safeword, but once you do and are ready to get it on let her know you are not asking to lick her 'down there' you are demanding it. Order her to go take a shower and then give her an inspection, declare it perfect for use and make her 'put up' with you licking it for a nice long time. Properly done, eating pussy (or cock) can be a very dom thing and for some varieties of people who don't want to be responsible for their sex it is super hot to receive that treatment 'against their will'.
41
Why would anyone be open to opening their relationship "down the road"? Sounds like a trap.
43
Fubar@41 ~ “...Why would anyone be open to opening their relationship "down the road"?...”
I’m guessing LW is taking a reasonable amount of time to get to know and trust his partner before jumping into complicated emotional territory.
44
Dadddy @42 you wrote: "she'd enjoy it if she could let herself."

But LICK wrote:
"she often won't let me finger or lick her."
"she says she would enjoy it if she could let me."

As long as she's not letting him, he should accept that. I find it interesting that you substituted "let herself" for letting him. She's in charge of her body, not him.

drjones @40
And D/s is only a solution if she's into that.
45
@14 LavaGirl: Thank you for beating me to it.
@23 EricaP: I'm really sorry that happened to you. I can empathize. Sending big hugs.
46
That's a given Erica re drjones suggestion. Always consent. His idea does sound like fun though and sex should be fun.
Maybe fantasy might loosen LW's gf up a bit? Practice enjoying these activities during her self pleasuring, maybe bring in a little D/s.
The beauty of fantasy men fingering and licking is they always have the most sensitive fingers and tongue.
47
Sex should be fun -- yes, and let's get her participation in thinking about what added activities might be fun for her, rather than assuming that he knows best what will make her happy.
48
Of course, Erica. She just seems like a bit of a downer, eh? Just straight to PiV and she's not even aroused, sounds like there's not many actions she's keen on. Does she give him oral? Her reasoning could be the same there. Close to toilet activities. Maybe she enjoys having her breasts nibbled and caressed.. no toilet issues there.
50
Erica @44: But she is letting him. Sometimes. "... she often won't let me finger or lick her. When she does, she enjoys it and easily climaxes while receiving oral sex." So it's not a case of her not liking it. It's not a case of her always saying no. I wish LICK had given some information on what's different about the times when she says yes and does enjoy herself. It could be as simple as whether she's horny or not. As this column has noted, people often do things when they are horny that disgust them when they are not. (Her frequent desire to skip foreplay and go to rushed PIV maintenance sex supports this theory.) So perhaps he just has to accept that she has a lower sex drive than he does, and that sex she isn't in the mood for will be perfunctory. He could solve this by not letting her say yes to sex she doesn't want.

Agree with you that DrJones's idea, along with the dirty talk, would be a great way to ruin oral sex for me. In fact, I wanted to address the "dirty talk" as something I agree may be doing more harm than good. Many like it, but Ms LICK says "eww." Perhaps if he wants to go down on her, he should ask her non-verbally -- by kissing her belly softly and moving down, or her thighs and moving up, and letting her indicate with her body language whether she wants him to continue towards her pussy.

Honestly, I'd be on the same page as you -- let her decide what she likes and what she doesn't -- if it weren't for the toilet comment, which reveals this is not just about preference. I hope she can learn to accept all her body parts, whatever she decides she likes to do with them.
51
On 'she would enjoy it if she could let me'...

I'd think there are many people, in one part of their mind, who want to enjoy some sexual activity, but find themselves 'blocked', too inhibited, to do so. And it's their decision whether the blockage or the baulked desire should be the more important--which is more 'them', which they should 'honour' or allow the upper hand. For some, though, the desire for internally prohibited activities is so great they have therapy to try to remove their inhibitions. So I wouldn't accept on principle the line that 'she shouldn't do X because she doesn't want to'.

I actually had the same thoughts as Lava in wondering whether he got any head. He says they have a good sex life. I took this most likely to mean that she was up for sex, receptive, when he wanted it. Quite possibly this is compensatory on her part: she understands her repertoire is more limited than he'd like, and makes an effort to please him. But will this be the same when they're married? After she's had kids? Note that LICK is writing to Dan just before the wedding. Potentially this is a bigger problem than the LW has indicated; and, actually, my instinct would be to think very many letters reveal bigger problems than is first apparent.

Of course anyone can find, is entitled to find, cunnilingus aversive for whatever reason.
52
Regarding Ms. LICK, I think there are several things to untangle.

She seems to have a good deal of body shame. I think she would be better off if she didn't think her vulva was gross and disgusting, but if she doesn't want to change that perspective, that's her right and her business. Even if she doesn't want cunnilingus, I think it's sad that she views her own genitals with such disgust. For what it's worth, I think that a lot of women feel the same way, which is why all those "love your vagina" things are, in my opinion, necessary. Some of the monologues in The Vagina Monologues are about rape ("My Vagina Was My Village") or things that are unpleasant ( "My Angry Vagina"), but many are celebrations (the introductions, "The Vagina Workshop," "Because He Liked To Look At It," "The Little Coochi Snorcher That Could," "Vagina Happy Fact"), and I think they serve a valuable purpose. I don't think men have to be taught that their penises are not gross, or taught that it's okay to love their penises. So I would hope that Ms. LICK comes around to loving her vulva and all it is capable of.

But I don't know that she's going to get that from her fiancé. It appears that he's been trying for 8 years, and by now, she probably feels it as pressure from him.

Some women don't like cunnilingus. They are allowed to not like it. They don't even have to have been sexually assaulted to not want it. That's their right.

Almost everything in this letter points to not only body shame, but anorgasmic-ness or a woman who's asexual or not really all that attracted to her fiancé.
LICK says "I can't make heads or tails of it!" and given that he says she "easily climaxes" on the few occasions she "lets" him go down on her, I can see why. It could be that her libido is really low, but that doesn't explain her distaste for foreplay, and insistence on rushing straight to intercourse when she manifestly isn't aroused enough.

I wonder if she's faking the orgasms LICK says she has from oral; it doesn't sound like she has orgasms any other times or ways. I wonder if she masturbates. I wonder if she knows what turns her on. It would be nice if, for her own sake, she finds that out.

I think a good place to start would be reading erotica. If she's grossed out at the thought of her own vulva, I doubt she is going to be aroused by seeing someone else's. I love my own, and I generally dislike visual porn; when I was younger, and before I saw more artful porn (shout out to this year's touring HUMP lineup, by the way: really hot stuff!), I was revolted by it--actually turned off to sex after viewing.

Here's where cannabis can come in.
Mr. Ven, in my personal experience, the effects of alcohol and marijuana are markedly different. Alcohol is a disinhibitor for all kinds of things, and it may relax, but it doesn't affect my experience of sex, except, if I've had too much, to make the room spin sickeningly as I'm trying to have it. But cannabis is a true aphrodisiac for me: it makes me think about sex; it makes me want to have sex; when I'm high I get aroused almost immediately after any sexual touch. It not only makes all sexual sensations more intense; it makes it much easier for me to orgasm more quickly, and it makes the orgasms stronger.

So I think Ms. LICK might benefit.
53
Dirty talk is a mixed bag for sure. There are sex acts that both my husband and I enjoy that we enjoy for different reasons, so the dirty talk (ugh, even the term is sex negative) doesn't always work for me. We like to play with dominance - him dominating me, but in different ways, so when he used to say stuff like 'I'm your husband and you have to' it was an immediate turn off for me, but the acts are hot. I had to tell him to knock it off and explain a bit what I was thinking about. Maybe the dirty talk is hitting on all of Ms LICK's insecurities and if he framed it differently, things would be different.
54
LICK - No advice, just sharing that a girl I dated was similar. Just did not feel comfortable with cunningulus. I am certain it was related to the "body issues" bugbear and not that she didn't find it pleasurable. She was quite giving of blowjobs and was GGG in bed otherwise. It is likely something she will figure out on her own and nothing you should take personally.

But if you REALLY need to lick pussy you gotta dump her. It could take her a while to come around.
55
Rephrasing DrJones @40 from a different angle:
Hey LICK, I know not everyone is kinky, but consider a little light sub/dom angle. My wife is also hung up about her body and sexuality in a lot of ways, one way to work around that is to put control in her hands. (News flash, not all women are submissive!) LICK doesn't ask to give his partner head; Ms LICK demands it from him, as either a reward or a punishment. I don't get the sense that Ms LICK is a sub, so ordering her to do something she doesn't want to do would be a great way to get her to shut down completely. On the other hand, making this into something he can't do without her orders might make it more appealing to her.

Nocute @52: I'll second your observations about alcohol and cannabis. Alcohol lowers inhibitions, so if I was horny when I was sober, alcohol would take away my second thoughts about hitting on anyone who happened to be there. But it never made sex better; in fact, too much of it made it worse. (Nothing kills the mood like head spins or having to puke.) Weed has a similar disinhibiting factor, though I can't recall hitting on anyone while stoned whom I wouldn't have shagged sober. Its main advantage in sex is that it heightens physical sensations, so yeah, I come much more quickly and easily -- with a partner or on my own -- after getting high.
56
Harriet_by_the_bulrushes @51 wrote "it's their decision whether the blockage or the baulked desire should be the more important--which is more 'them'"

Absolutely.

Harriet_by_the_bulrushes continues: "For some, though, the desire for internally prohibited activities is so great they have therapy to try to remove their inhibitions."

Again, absolutely. If a person decides they want to change, and gets therapy to help with that change, that's a good first step towards changing.

Harriet_by_the_bulrushes continues: "So I wouldn't accept on principle the line that 'she shouldn't do X because she doesn't want to'."

I don't understand. How did the rest of your post lead to that sentence? I *do* accept on principle that if she doesn't want cunnilingus, doesn't want to address her issues, and doesn't want therapy, then she's well within her rights to refuse all those things.

And I return to my point: since he wants a change, he should ask for it on his own behalf: "Please consider therapy because I would like to be able to lick you more frequently" (NOT: "get therapy because there's something wrong with you if you don't enjoy cunnilingus.")
57
BiDan@55 ~ “...I come much more quickly and easily -- with a partner or on my own -- after getting high...>”
Total opposite for me...I can go forever when I’m stoned, just totally getting lost in the sensation...there have been a few times when we were, like, “OMG, we’ve been fucking for almost two hours!” Though I do have to say my girlfriend at the time was multi-orgasmic and would come over and over. Not bragging, just saying that’s what weed did for us. Could be the difference between men & women - or mostly the fact that I couldn’t be multi-orgasmic if I wanted to ~ and I DO, but all circuits are blown.
58
DIM is a fun acronym. I mean, truly, why ask any questions or investigate anything if there's an outside chance that somebody there might encourage your partner to break their promise of monogamy. Why even get out of bed?
59
To LICK, dear sweet baby corn, DO NOT pressure her into oral by saying you want it for your own pleasure. Dan's advice is decent to try to figure out what factors help her enjoy it, but please consider that it's entirely possible (probable) that she's faking it when you go down on her, for the sake of getting it over with. She sounds like a germophobe, or maybe she's actually asexual and doesn't really like sex at all, of any kind, but for her penetration is the easiest thing for her to take for the team. If she says "ew" when you dirty talk about oral, that's a pretty clear sign that she doesn't even like thinking about it, let alone doing it. This may be your gf's price of admission, and it's not your job to "fix" her. The best thing you can do is let her know what you think is sexy, support her in doing the same, LISTEN to what she tells you, and for the love of mercy, don't pressure her. That never works. If she's capable of enjoying oral, she's much more likely to want to experiment with it if you let her come around to it on her own. Make your sex life like Google's colleague dating policy: you're allowed to ask ONCE. If she says no, after that it's up to her to reinitiate. Zero tolerance for pressure, and zero expectation that you will keep trying after rejection. None of this coy shit. Communication.
60
@26 Daddddy - You said: "The fact that she says 'she would enjoy it if she could let me' is a good indication she's hoping he won't give up."

I totally disagree. It's unlikely that she's trying to encourage him, when you consider her repeated refusals and "ew, gross" comments. I think it's more likely the case she's just trying to get him to give up pressuring her by making this something about herself (in her control) that he can't change. Reading LICK's letter, he's been overly persistent. This could very well be another tactic on Ms. LICK's part to say "Cut it out, you can't fix this" since explaining how she actually feels about oral sex (a big yuck for her) hasn't dissuaded him.

And sure, he should give her unconditional support and acceptance and let her know how he feels about various sex acts. I'm not sure what you mean by promoting "exposure" but no one should have to put up with a condescending partner "exposing" them over and over to something they've said they don't like, just because the partner has decided they should like it. It's not his job to change her. There's a fine line between actually being supportive and having a sexual savior complex.
61
@22 DonnyK: You said "Also, In my book, sex should be about pleasing your partner first and she doesn't seem to be interested in even doing this rather basic, non-kinky thing because he likes it, and for me, that would make her a lousy lay. Seems like this could easily become something she could learn to like (or at least tolerate) if she could get over her toxic attitude. Girlfriend lets me come in her mouth occasionally (though she doesn't really care for it) and I appreciate the effort."

This is a sidetrack, but I am confused about how your belief that "sex should be about pleasing your partner first" is compatible with you asking your gf to tolerate you coming in her mouth when she "doesn't really care for it." That is not about pleasing your partner, but yourself. Have you learned to tolerate doing things you "don't really care for" but that she likes, to reciprocate?
62
I thought that as well, strange observer. Ms LICK is not into sex at all. She puts up with it and then when the ring is on her finger, it'll be close down shop for good.
Nobody has the right to make anyone else perform or receive any bodily acts. Think we all on the same page here.
And nobody has to stay in a relationship where their sexual needs are not being met.
63
Knowing what a sweetie Donny is strange observer, I'm sure he reciprocates. Mean foot massages, back rubs, cooks her meals. Their sex moves not really any of your or my business. Though I'm sure he puts on his cowboy suit when she wants to play.
64
Old joke: How many therapists does it take to change a light bulb? ...Only one, but it will take a long time and a lot of money. Plus, the light bulb has to WANT to change.

LICK's fiancee apparently gets squicked out by the proximity of her excretory organs to her pleasure centers. PIV sex is OK for her, possibly because it's a like-with-like transaction, genital-to-genital... "kosher" sex, if you will. But for whatever reason, mouth-to-genital contact is generally "ewwww" for her. Maybe it's body shame; maybe it's childhood sexual abuse; maybe she is a germaphobe; maybe she had a tough time with potty training. Who knows, and does it really matter? We have only LICK's word for it that she easily climaxes when she occasionally allows him to go down on her; as nocute @52 points out, she may be agreeing to oral sex not for herself but to please LICK, and faking an orgasm may be her way of quickly getting through the disgusting bits and back to the types of sex she prefers.

Unless and until LICK's fiancee feels that her revulsion over cunnilingus is interfering with her ability to have a good sex life, and/or save her relationship with LICK -- to the point that she is ready and willing to make a change FOR HERSELF -- all the therapy in the world won't make any difference, except to her bank balance. On the bright side, regarding both LICK and DIM, many people become more adventurous and GGG over time, as they gain more sexual knowledge, experience, and trust with a partner. I completely agree with SO @59 @60 @61 that the best way for LICK to get the cunni he craves is to chill out a bit, accept that GF is not all that into receiving oral at this point (but she may come around later), and let her know that he will be ready whenever she is - but he's also going to respect her wishes on the subject in the meantime. Less pressure, more unselfish and unconditional lovin'. That's a very good habit to practice in any relationship, and especially for a couple that is planning to marry in the near future.
65
Settle for you reckon Capri?
66
Big Congrats in advance to this week's Lucky @69 winner!......tick....tick....tick.....
67
This feels like a knitting circle. ' yes yes, he really should stay with her and it'll get better. I mean it's only been a few years, giver her time to you know like to like it.' Don't you see this couple is the next letter from some guy, wife and kids and no sex with the wife. Fuck that. Sexual compatibility is an important part of a marriage, unless both are asexual.
This woman thinks of her luscious garden as a toilet, fuck that too.
68
@56. Erica. I accept on principle what you accept on principle: that LICK's fiancee can say 'no' to cunnilingus straight-up.

I don't think the situation described in the letter, though, is as simple as her just saying 'no' to it. She rather appears conflicted--she likes it but finds it shameful. (This is the fiancé's description; if he's wrong and she wants to say 'no' all the time, the situation is as simple as you describe). This was the context in which I made my last remark: someone can both want to perform a certain sex act (involuntarily or because they think they should, they think it's normal--through the id or the superego, I guess, in Freudian terms) and not want to perform the same act (or have it performed on them, in both cases). My sense was that the LW was describing this sort of conflicted desire/revulsion in his partner.

Other commenters have just seen revulsion, though. I don't think this in that she has oral with her fiancé occasionally -- though she doesn't like talking about it -- and is going to marry him.
69
I forget you lot shave.
70
Still luscious pussies, just not much of a garden without the bushes.
71
@69 Congratulations, LavaGirl, as this week's lucky @69 winner! May the best of good fortune shower riches upon you like you have never before seen.
72
@strange observer @59: If she says "ew" when you dirty talk about oral, that's a pretty clear sign that she doesn't even like thinking about it, let alone doing it.

Eh. I dunno. I personally find the majority of dirty talk too ridiculous to bear. I might not say "ew" exactly, but I'd probably have an "ew" face, and find it a turn-off. And it would have no correlation with my interest in the activity being described. It's all about my (lack of) interest in the dirty talk itself.

I'll second the folks saying there's a better-than-decent chance she's faking those orgasms to get the oral over with. I used to not come from oral and although I didn't dislike it, it could be quite irritating to experience when the guy was really just wanting to prove he could make me come. Guys like this present it as being about the girl, as if they're super altruistic, but it's not, it's really an ego-trip to prove they're so much better than "most guys" who don't even care if their partner comes. (Who are these most guys, anyway? I've never met one.) I did much better with the guys who presented it as something they wanted to do for them, with clear statements that there was no expectation that I would come.

And now I can come like gangbusters from it, so there ya go. Things do change.

I'm torn on this one. Of course people are allowed to like/not like whatever, for whatever reasons. But I think Dadddy @26 is right that when you're pretty sure the reasons are bullshit, it's fair--even good--to do some pushing, and it seems like in this case there's a decent chance her reasons are bullshit body-shame reasons. The question is what type of pushing will truly help, and what will just make her feel defensive, irritated, and even less interested than before?

I have no experience dealing with people with ingrained shame like that, and I wouldn't know the first place to start. Unfortunately I suspect it's often part and parcel of a larger discomfort/guilt/unease around sex that may never truly go away, and I for one wouldn't want to be fighting that fight. I like my partners to be playful and light-hearted as a default, even if there's intensity as well.

That said, I think the weed suggestion may be the best one. Inhibition-lowering (but without lowering sensitivity). Maybe they could try that, and see if she likes it then (as a request from him). If she does, they may eventually be able to work it into their sober sex as well. If not, I think he's SOL.
73
Thanks Grizelda. What is SOL ciods?
74
It's not just disliking oral sex, it's not wanting fingers in the vagina and not even waiting to be aroused for sex. Big issues going on here and I don't think dope will solve them.
75
SOL = Shit Outta Luck
76
@72. Ciods. The LW seems to be able to tell when his gf comes from PIV ('she doesn't value her orgasms' suggests she sometimes does and sometimes doesn't ). It doesn't seem to me all things considered likely that he's unaware she's faking to get cunnilingus over with. It casts him too much as the clueless male.
77
@73 LavaGirl: I think ciods means that the said individual is "Shit Out of Luck".
78
@75 sanguisuga: Marco! lol I posted before your comment showed up.
79
Thanks Sangu and Grizelda.
80
@76: Harriet, I think it's easily possible that she's faking and he doesn't know. Or that what she's experiencing is a slight bump in arousal from her usual non-aroused state. Because if she was really coming from oral, and not, apparently, from any other activity, I can't imagine that she'd be so opposed to it.

If he's never seen her authentic orgasm, he has no way of judging the authenticity of what he thinks are her orgasms. Women come in many different ways. I say this as someone who used to fake it and now doesn't. Men never realized I was faking--even a long-term boyfriend--in part because I never really came and so they had nothing to compare it to. Women don't ejaculate (I'm not talking about squirting, because lots of women orgasm without squirting and even squirters don't necessarily squirt every time), and nothing gets soft after an orgasm. Some women scream and some are silent, and some do other things. It's pretty easy to fake.
81
@74 (LavaGirl)

I agree. Commenters seem to have sped over the details that she doesn't want his fingers near her vulva/vagina and wants penetration immediately - even though she's not physically ready, yet refuses to acknowledge it. That sounds like just-stick-it-in-and-get-it-over-with sex. Gee, I'm sure LICK finds it all so tempting. /sarcasm.

I can see her reaction as the female equivalent of a man who insults a woman after she's given him a BJ by calling her a cocksucker. In this case, it's as if the mere penetration by a penis and possible ejaculate automatically made her vagina a "dirty" place forever, and that only a "dirty" penis can touch it again.

I strongly feel that she has little interest in sex (because what woman would willingly have PIV that is physically uncomfortable except under duress. But that's what she apparently prefers, just to get it over with while pretending she's fulfilling some sort of obligation to the relationship. especially if she feels that men are just inherently dirtier in their sexual urges than women.

I could actually see LICK increasingly withdrawing from PIV the longer this goes on, especially as he knows her body isn't really receptive to his penis (and by extension to him). As others have pointed out, it is entirely possible for people to grow into being GGG, acquiring more sexual skills and subtlety in pleasing both themselves and their partners but, unless she indicates she wants even the most basic satisfaction, I think this relationship is doomed. Whether it's a case of Lava's "bait-and-switch" just in order to get that wedding ring on her finger or a sex stigma conundrum without any real enthusiasm for change from her ("but she says she would enjoy it if she could let me" - WTF???), I'm not sure ... but I wouldn't bet any money on a compatible (sex) life for these two. LICK, don't marry her.
82
Lava @70, maybe it is because we are contemporaries, but I am totally with you: an unshaven bush is one of the more delightful elements in the "luscious garden" of both sexes. I would never insist that a lover refrain from shaving if they preferred the bald look - it's their body, and they are entitled to look however they want - but to me, a shaven pubic area whimpers "Pre-pubescent child!" whereas a full bush says "Ready to rumble!"

OTOH I generally am attracted to the clean-shaven look on men, so intentional facial hair works opposite to pubic hair in stimulating my libido . But a bit of natural fuzz on the upper lip (not enough to be called a true mustache), on a person of either sex, looks both cute and sexy to me. Effects of Body Hair on Sexual Attraction, with a statistically valid survey population across sex, gender identification, sexual preference, and socioeconomic classifications...there's a good sociological dissertation to be written on that one, for sure.
83
"But it's a myth .... anal sex being inherently dangerous."
Not really.

The Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) fact sheet on “Anal Sex and HIV Risk” states, “Anal sex is the riskiest sexual behavior for getting and transmitting HIV"
The CDC also reports that in addition to the same sexually transmitted infections that are passed through vaginal sex (gonorrhea, etc.), anal sex can also expose participants to hepatitis A, B and C; parasites like Giardia and intestinal amoebas; bacteria like Shigella, Salmonella, Campylobacter, and E. coli.

The American Cancer Society reports that anal intercourse increases the risk of anal cancer .

A study in The American Journal of Gastroenterology found anal intercourse to be a predictor of and a factor contributing to fecal incontinence.
84
Web MD:

"There are a number of health risks with anal sex, and anal intercourse is the riskiest form of sexual activity for several reasons, including the following:

>>The anus lacks the natural lubrication the vagina has. Penetration can tear the tissue inside the anus, allowing bacteria and viruses to enter the bloodstream. This can result in the spread of sexually transmitted infections including HIV. Studies have suggested that anal exposure to HIV poses 30 times more risk for the receptive partner than vaginal exposure. Exposure to the human papillomavirus (HPV) may also lead to the development of anal warts and anal cancer. Using lubricants can help some, but doesn't completely prevent tearing.
>>The tissue inside the anus is not as well protected as the skin outside the anus. Our external tissue has layers of dead cells that serve as a protective barrier against infection. The tissue inside the anus does not have this natural protection, which leaves it vulnerable to tearing and the spread of infection.
>>The anus was designed to hold in feces. The anus is surrounded with a ring-like muscle, called the anal sphincter, which tightens after we defecate. When the muscle is tight, anal penetration can be painful and difficult. Repetitive anal sex may lead to weakening of the anal sphincter, making it difficult to hold in feces until you can get to the toilet. However, Kegel exercises to strengthen the sphincter may help prevent this problem or correct it.
>>The anus is full of bacteria. Even if both partners do not have a sexually-transmitted infection or disease, bacteria normally in the anus can potentially infect the giving partner. Practicing vaginal sex after anal sex can also lead to vaginal and urinary tract infections.

Anal sex can carry other risks as well. Oral contact with the anus can put both partners at risk for hepatitis, herpes, HPV, and other infections.
Even though serious injury from anal sex is not common, it can occur. Bleeding after anal sex could be due to a hemorrhoid or tear, or something more serious such as a perforation (hole) in the colon."
85
Helenka @81, you interpreted the need for lube as proof that LICK's fiancee was not physically ready for sex. But many women need to use lube IN ADDITION TO their natural lubrication for comfortable PIV sex, particularly if they are on the small side and their partner is on the large side. In addition, various physiological conditions can reduce or even eliminate a woman's natural lubrication, many having little or nothing to do with her level of sexual excitement. When someone says they are ready to be penetrated but they will need a little lube, I think you should take them at their word. No one who feels now-now-now ready wants to be told, "Oh no my dear, I really think you will need a little more foreplay first."

I do think it's possible that LICK hears his fiancee's request for lube as you did - as an indication that he hasn't done a good enough job of arousing her yet, when in fact she may be ready and eager for PIV despite a lack of adequate natural lubrication. And since he's not able to get her to agree to extensive fingering or pre-PIV cunnilingus very often, he feels like he needs to put some new tools in his toolbox so she won't need the lube. But I think they'd both be happier if he could just relax and let her call the tune for a while, rather than LICK insisting on always taking the lead and trying to show her how fun cunnilingus can be. You may be right that she on the ace spectrum and she feels that partnered sex of any kind is rather disgusting - but I think it's equally likely that she is not ready to expand her sexual repertoire (yet) beyond what she already knows she likes.
86
@63 lava, you wrote: "Knowing what a sweetie Donny is strange observer, I'm sure he reciprocates. Mean foot massages, back rubs, cooks her meals. Their sex moves not really any of your or my business. Though I'm sure he puts on his cowboy suit when she wants to play."

I don't know DonnieK or his gf or particularly need intimate details of their sex life. I was just struck by the contradiction in saying "sex should be about pleasing your partner" and (paraphrasing) "I'm grateful that my gf lets me do something to her that she doesn't like." Awesome if DonnieK gives foot rubs and cooks for his gf, but that's not exactly in the same league with asking your partner to do something they find distasteful / unenjoyable, which is what he was bluntly saying all good sex partners should be willing to do, (e.g. LICK's gf would be a "lousy lay" if she's not willing to let her bf do something she thinks is gross but he enjoys). I'm just hoping DonnieK walks his talk and is willing to suck it up for his gf as much as she does for him (pun might or might not be intended).
88
In my experience, many men think they are better at spotting orgasm and faking than they are. Every woman is unique in her orgasmic response; every woman is adept at consciously signaling pleasure and arousal whether she is feeling it or not; and women may have a variety of physiological responses -- trembling (which can be brought on by extended muscle clenching), flushing (which can happen with exertion), vocalizing, vaginal muscle spasms, etc. -- without achieving orgasm. The only way to know if a particular woman has had an orgasm or not is if she tells you honestly when she has or hasn't, and learning her particular involuntary tells, if she has any (which she might not).
89
@62 lava, you're right, we basically agree. He's allowed to want what he wants, and she is too. Mr. and Ms. LICK are not sexually compatible if either one find's the other's price of admission too high. Which is fine, but they should try to figure that out before they get married, as you said.

Honestly it sounds like she might be basically ace but trying to have tolerable sex for his sake, and he's not okay with someone who's just tolerating rather than enjoying. I know a couple that broke up largely over this (genders reversed, incidentally).
91
Just wanted to note that some women produce a lot of lubrication when aroused. If she likes friction she may prefer to control the degree of lubrication via artificial lube.

If he doesn't really know how she feels about PIV and oral, they might benefit from having these conversations with the help of a professional counselor.
93
@61Strange ~ “...Have you learned to tolerate doing things you "don't really care for" but that she likes, to reciprocate?
Truthfully, no, but only because she has never asked for anything I wouldn’t care to do...(and I’m having a hard time imagining what that might be). If she did, I’d gladly bite the bullet. I’ll try anything once, twice if I like it. My point was not that both partners each have to engage in an activity which isn’t their first choice of things to do to balance the scales, but rather that she does it for me and I appreciate it. Also, I would never advocate asking your partner to do something ridiculously gross (recent worms in vagina LW being an example) but stretching your boundaries to include relatively innocuous things like oral sex or a mild slap on the ass, etc... just seems like good sportsmanship and a necessary part of keeping things interesting. I stand by my assessment that a refusal to try to get over unreasonable (and I use that word for lack of a better one, hope you get what I’m trying to say) hangups makes you a lousy lay.
94
EricaP @56: What about, "Please consider therapy because there's something wrong with you if you think your pussy is as dirty as a toilet"?

Strange @59: "If she says "ew" when you dirty talk about oral, that's a pretty clear sign that she doesn't even like thinking about it, let alone doing it." Or just a clear sign that she finds dirty talk embarrassing rather than arousing. Plenty of sex-loving people who find sleazy chat a mood-killing distraction. I completely agree that "no" means "and don't ask again."

Lava @67: I agree. It's been eight years. Unless she does get some (effective and wanted) therapy, I too believe that things will get worse, not better, when marriage and potentially children come into the picture. LICK, you say you have a "good sex life." Is it good enough -- can you accept that she mainly goes through the motions for your sake, and has hangups about her own body -- or do you want someone who's as enthusiastic as you are? Last chance to walk if this is not the sex you want for the rest of your life.

Lava @69: My denuded lady garden and I congratulate you on the magic number.

Ciods @72: LICK does seem to be one of these men who is too fixated on his partner's orgasm -- the goal post -- to enjoy the rest of the game. I had one like that: he kept interruping what had been enjoyable sex to say "Did you come? Did you come?" "She really does not value her own orgasm. But I do, and I miss seeing her climax!" Stop that. Just have sex with her. Stop pressuring her to have orgasms every time. Do your best, yes, but accept that -- just like the husband in yesterday's SLOG -- being pressured to come is a surefire way to stop her from coming. Enjoy the journey, not just the destination -- and I bet she will enjoy it a lot more as well.

Strange @88: Agreed. After decades of having orgasms, I'm certain I could duplicate my own without anyone being able to tell the difference. If a woman is close but can't quite get there, it's not a huge effort to just exaggerate the final moments. That's if you want the act to end more than you want to come, which, sometimes we do. You're right that everyone involved is happier with a bit of suspension of disbelief on the part of the giver. (See my paragraph above referring to Mr "Did you come? Did you come?")
95
@81. Nocutename. If it's very possible that he can't tell when she's faking, then he needs to ask himself what she enjoys and indeed whether she enjoys anything.

He speaks of her orgasms in two situations: when she allows him to go down on her--she comes easily, he says, when disinhibited; and during PIV, which she starts 'too soon' in being unaroused: he comes first and she after. It’s not clear to me whether he remains stiff, semi-stiff or gets her off some other way. Reading again, it seemed to me she could be faking these times.

I have no life-experience regarding how often women fake and how undetectable it is, and will defer to those who do. LICK is a 35 year old man--not an ingenu--who speaks of their sex being 'good'. He would have to be really wrong.
96
Harriet @95: I read "I climax [during PIV] long before she does" as "I climax long before she has the opportunity to," ie she is not having orgasms during this rushed sex, she's forgoing them in the interest of getting him off and the sex over with.
97
Why do people put pen to paper, be prepared to have their story looked at by Dan and a loose mob of their fellow humans, if they are not scratching their heads with total confusion.
This guy says it. Doesn't know what her clues are, because they are so complex because they are so neurotic. The origins of her issues are her business and hers alone to look at or continue to adjust to(o).
They have invested a lot of years in each other, and played this little dance, this lie, all along it seems. Now, closer to the wedding, he opens his eyes and says hang on! And here we are.
98
@92 dadddy, actually, my personal experience is with men who think they've spotted an orgasm when there wasn't one. I've never faked an orgasm in my life. Maybe I am not that invested in men's egos. I know that many men are worse at spotting faking than they think they are from talking with other women. I have no idea if you are better or worse at it yourself, but I do know that anyone who states with confidence that there are easy-to-spot general physiological signs of female orgasm is incorrect. Nothing personal, just factual.
99
@94 Bi, you're the second person to say that maybe she just doesn't like dirty talk. I should have worded my comment better. I think that's certainly a possibility - many people don't like dirty talk in general. Here I'm going off the fact that she not only says "ew" when he talks about it but has also specifically stated she is grossed out by the act itself "like sticking your head in a toilet". That congruence...Occam's Razor. Regardless of what anyone else thinks about sex acts that should come standard issue, she doesn't like this one. Like some people are grossed out by feet. I don't get it. Feet are human. Yet, people who are grossed out by feet exist and are unlikely to get persuaded out of it.
100
@85 (Capricornius)

Did I even mention lube (or lack of it)? Nope. I am fully aware how decreased natural lubrication may be biologically normal or a result of medications such as antihistamines (or, eventually, ageing). I just used LICK's description that she's not physically ready. How would LICK know? Well, it could be that he's finding initial penetration difficult (and painful for both) and, since her vagina hasn't expanded or lengthened, he may be hitting her cervix which I believe most women don't like.

So I'm still sticking with my impression that Ms LICK wants sex to be over with more quickly because it's just a "dirty" activity while he wishes he had a partner with whom he could dawdle over sexual exploration.

And there's still her assertion that she wishes she could let herself enjoy different types of sex. But talk is cheap without action (or a plan of action).
101
@96. Bi. If the sex (PIV sex) is over when he comes, she isn't the only one in need of sex education. And it would provide an explanation of why she would want to get said sex over with.

LICK doesn't write as if (in his own mind) he understands that little about mutuality in having sex, though. Could he really imagine that the only way for her to come, given how they (PIV-)fuck, is through his licking her out?

And why is she marrying him? Is marriage so great a symbolic prize to her? Maybe the scope of the conversations they need to have is broad.
102
Harriet@95 ~ "...I have no life-experience regarding how often women fake and how undetectable it is, and will defer to those who do...."
See, When Harry Met Sally of course:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-bsf2x-…
103
PS, congrats to Lava and Helenka for scoring this week's lucky numbers!
104
I understand that some people don't like dirty talk. But the response of "Eww" doesn't just sound to me as though she doesn't like dirty talk. She responds with "eww" when LICK talks dirty about going down on her, an action she is uncomfortable with and which she compares to sticking one's head in a toilet. It may indeed be the case that she finds dirty talk off-putting or silly or unsexy or uncomfortable in general as well, but I think that this specific example means she is really grossed out by the idea of cunnilingus.

I wish LICK had given more information about those times when she "does" let her finacé go down on her and (presumably) comes. What is different? Why isn't she as inhibited? What's the ratio of times she allows cunnilingus and appears to enjoy it and orgasm from it to the number of times she shuts it down? What other factors are in play? It could have something to do with her libido as BDF suggested: she's hornier then. This could be tied to her hormonal cycle.

I think she loves LICK and wants the intimacy of sex and she wants to please him--those are legitimate reasons for having sex with a partner. It sounds, though, that the actual physical aspect of sex doesn't really appeal to her at all. I wonder if she gives LICK oral sex.

@Dadddy, thank you for mansplaining my own lived experience to me. And not all the men I faked with were one-offs who didn't give a hoot about whether I was enjoying myself, charming as your interpretation was. I hate to contradict you, but not all men are as good as you seem to be at reading the veracity of a woman's orgasm. Sex flush? Well, that might be hard to notice during PIV if your eyes are nowhere near her vulva. Or if the room is dark. I suspect that a woman who wants no foreplay and is repulsed by the thought of either a finger or a tongue on her clit or in her vagina prefers to have sex at night with the lights off. At least some other women do, as well.
105
@93 DonnyK, good to hear that you'd try something you think is kinda gross for your partner's sake, if she should ask. I wonder if there's anything she's interested in that she hasn't asked you to do out of politeness. No need to answer, just idle curiosity.

I understand what you're saying that not being GGG for "reasonable" things makes someone a lousy lay. The tricky part is defining reasonable. I'd agree that someone who isn't up for receiving oral would be a lousy lay (i.e. incompatible) FOR YOU and probably for LICK too. I do think that people who are germophobes or somewhere on the ace spectrum - as Ms. LICK may be - have a right to their own feelings without getting judged to be broken, repressed, or selfish in bed. It's a different way to be. It doesn't have to be everybody's thing. Societal sexual norms change over time and individuals vary; there is no universal standard.
106
Hmmm, much as I hate to contradict Dadddy....

@Dadddy: I'd say the list of "hard to fake" physiological signs you give @80-something are more correlated with arousal than orgasm. I am certainly flushed long before the orgasm. Like strange observer, I've had men assume orgasm when there was none (were none? how do we feel here, grammar friends?) and it wasn't because I was trying to fake it, but just because I was having an excellent time. I also know at what approximate rate my muscles contract when I orgasm, and I can contract them that way "manually" (haha) even without orgasming. So I eye your assertion that you can spot a fake one with some skepticism, sir. Perhaps you can; but I will certainly claim this makes you rare, be it true.

@Harriet @72: I have faked orgasms (mostly long long ago, before I had much sexual self-confidence) and so far as I know, they were not detected, but they tended to be with younger guys who certainly would fall into the "clueless" category. But I absolutely don't think it makes a guy clueless if he can't spot a faked orgasm, so I didn't mean it as any reflection on him. For the record, I think most guys could fake orgasm, too, given (a) no one was looking hard for ejaculate, e.g. if a condom were being used that the guy removed himself, and (b) he wanted to. It's just most guys have few occasions to bother. But the variation and intricacies of orgasm are so large and individual, I for one would never bet that I could spot a fake on anyone else.

Lava & Cap, I totally agree on pubic hair. Bring it back! I find it so creepy when it's absent...
107
Harriet @101: The overwhelming majority of opposite-sex sexual encounters end when the guy has an orgasm. It's just physiology. That's why it's so important for men to make sure their partners have had an orgasm or several, depending on how multiorgasmic they are or aren't, before they themselves come. Which LICK is really trying to do, to his credit -- she just doesn't want to engage in what LICK is calling "foreplay" (but which lesbian and bi women call "sex").

I understand that it must be different for gay men, otherwise each sexual encounter would result in only half the participants getting to come. But I don't think a general strategy of "she comes first because she can keep going afterwards, whereas he can't" is a bad one when people with opposite genitalia are involved.
108
@104 To be fair, you didn't report your experience, you reported your assumptions about someone else's experience. That distinction has never stopped you from telling me what people in my life "were really thinking", so how about you walk it like you talk it?
109
BiDanFan @94 wrote:
>> What about, "Please consider therapy because there's something wrong with you if you think your pussy is as dirty as a toilet"? >>

If I were LICK's gf, I'd respond with "have you considered therapy for worrying so much about something that's my business and doesn't bother me? And have you considered therapy to learn how to ask for what you want honestly?"

BiDanFan @107 -- my opposite-sex sexual encounters don't end when the guy has an orgasm. Generally speaking, I get mine second, but then I don't like cunnilingus. And physiologically I find that men are able to spank me and twist my nipples and hold a vibrator after they come.
110
@108: Sportlandia, I first brought up the idea of Ms. LICK faking her orgasms @80, when I mentioned my own experiences.
Here you go:
"@76: Harriet, I think it's easily possible that she's faking and he doesn't know. Or that what she's experiencing is a slight bump in arousal from her usual non-aroused state. Because if she was really coming from oral, and not, apparently, from any other activity, I can't imagine that she'd be so opposed to it.

If he's never seen her authentic orgasm, he has no way of judging the authenticity of what he thinks are her orgasms. Women come in many different ways. I say this as someone who used to fake it and now doesn't. Men never realized I was faking--even a long-term boyfriend--in part because I never really came and so they had nothing to compare it to. Women don't ejaculate (I'm not talking about squirting, because lots of women orgasm without squirting and even squirters don't necessarily squirt every time), and nothing gets soft after an orgasm. Some women scream and some are silent, and some do other things. It's pretty easy to fake."


Dadddy decided he knew better than me how my partners perceived my actions, and he also decided, even though I said one of those partners was a long-term boyfriend, that these were all one-night stands. My response @104 was to Dadddy, not to anyone else--certainly not to you.

Additionally, exactly what are you accusing me of when you say, "That distinction has never stopped you from telling me what people in my life "were really thinking", so how about you walk it like you talk it?" I have no memory of telling you what people in your lief "were really thinking" and in fact, I try to not interact with you, as you seem to want to be combative ("so how about you walk it like you talk it?") and I try to avoid getting into name-calling internet spats.
111
While I disagree with Mr Savage's assertion that Pres Obama was "pretending" to oppose Alphabet Soup rights, it at least suggests to me a model for understanding what could well be a plurality of OS encounters - either women pretend to climax, men pretend to believe them, or both.

That's probably more witty than true, but I'm listening to a podcast in which a group of OS people who lauded the late Mrs Schlafly are complaining about women who call their husbands gay in divorce court for custodial impact and seeing no hint of a possible connection there.