EricaP @109: And I'd say, "No, but I have considered whether I should be in a relationship with someone who has deep issues about her own body and no desire to address them, for her own sake or her partners' sake, and decided that the answer to that is no. I wish you the best."

Congratulations on being outside of an overwhelming majority. I never denied that sexual encounters like yours exist, I'm telling a gay man that they aren't the norm. As you say, you're different because you don't like cunnilingus. The existence of exceptions -- to everything -- does not mean there is no norm.

Dadddy @114: "it does sound like I differ from the majority of men in that I'm an orgasm skeptic."

I'd agree with that: Most men are like Mulder from The X-Files -- they want to believe. That's why faking is so effective. Aside from my insecure "did you come?" ex, I can't think of any men who have challenged the veracity of my orgasms. At least verbally, who knows what they were thinking. I just don't see what one would gain by skepticism. If she appears to have come, then either she has come, or she wants you to think she has come. And if she wants you to think she's come, there's a reason for that. Probably because she knew she wouldn't actually come, which may or may not have had anything to do with you, and she wanted the sex to be finished because continuing would just be boring and perhaps painful, but she didn't want you to be disappointed. So why go looking for the sexual white lie, the equivalent of reassuring you that your ass doesn't look fat in that? Why ruin both people's enjoyment of the sex by exposing that hers was exaggerated?

Faking does, as Nocute says, seem to be mostly a phenomenon among younger women. Older women, firstly, learn their bodies better so they know what makes them come, and secondly, give fewer shits about coddling a man's ego and more about speaking up to ask him for what they need. Don't like fakers? Don't fuck young women. ;)

I do understand that this would all seem to put men in an odd spot. You're supposed to make sure your partner comes. But you're not supposed to pressure her to come or ask her whether she came. You're supposed to keep on going until she comes, but she's not allowed to fake one to prompt you to finish. If only communicating our needs were as easy -- in real life, and for everyone, not just SL readers -- as it is on this board!

EricaP @109: On reflection, I should have possibly said "the overwhelming majority of vanilla opposite-sex sexual encounters end when the man has an orgasm." Kink is a different animal indeed and does not follow any standard scripts.

I also think you're taking this a bit too personally with the "if I were LICK's girlfriend." You certainly are identifying yourself with her in spite of some really big differences. Presumably, you don't think your vulva is disgusting. That's the issue here, not the fact that she doesn't enjoy cunnilingus (except when she does...).

@dadddy 113, look, you may have seen some genuine orgasms and correctly identified them as such. Not every woman's orgasm looks like what you described there, and I'm damn sure that the woman / women you described are perfectly capable of being discretely quiet when they want to be. Which is to say, the signs of orgasm are complicated, and women can play them up or downplay them at will. That's not _necessarily_ about faking or performance, that's just life, just as I'm sure men can be as quiet or flamboyant about coming as you want to be. And a woman who is experiencing genuine build-up and pleasure can fake the ending if she isn't quite getting there but is ready to move on. Etc.

My general point was not to impugn you personally, but getting back to LICK's letter, to point out that he my not know if she's actually coming from oral sex. There are no sure-fire signs, especially if he doesn't really know what her genuine orgasm looks like. She certainly has an incentive to lie about coming quickly if he is insistent on doing it and she just desperately wants it over with because she actually hates it.

^ discreetly and may. Down with typos.

I wouldn't want a lover who described themselves as an "orgasm skeptic." I'd feel he was constantly judging me, comparing each orgasm to the last one, suspicious of the less earth-shaking ones. I'd wonder why he couldn't just enjoy the sex we were having, why he couldn't just take my word (and moans) that I was having a good time. So I dunno. Maybe the submissive women you, Dadddy, sleep with find some turn-on in feeling judged by you, but it sounds like a real drag to me. Question, if you do think you've spotted a fake, what do you do? Ask her in the moment? Ask her later? Or just take it on board in making a determination that you're not compatible?

Helenka @100, you never mentioned lube but LICK did. I commented that he may feel like he is an inadequate lover who is not doing enough to stimulate his fiancee, if she still wants to use lube prior to PIV. But some women can be physically ready & eager, yet still need an extra boost to their own natural lubrication in order to have comfortable penetrative sex. We have only LICK's interpretation that she is not sufficiently aroused when they begin PIV.

I continue to agree with EricaP that unless and until GF feels she needs and wants therapy for her "down there" aversion, LICK's best strategy is to chill out, keep doing the stuff they both like, and (if in fact he really craves cunnilingus, not to prove he can stimulate her juices but because it's essential to his own satisfying sex life) ask her to please consider letting him go down on her at least once a month and on his birthday, as a special sexual favor to him.

@100 Helenka: I'm a little late posting in and Donny beat me to it, but congrats on scoring this week's Hunsky!

Strange @105~ “...The tricky part is defining reasonable…
Kind of... different strokes for different folks and all, but I still think there are people who are just objectively lousy lays. My ex was one of them (I thought she’d get better, she didn’t). She was disinterested, unwilling to try anything new and didn’t want to do anything to make it better (for either of us). She occasionally made a half-hearted effort to move a little. The only way I could tell she was having an orgasm was she would breathe a little faster. I guess that might be just the ticket for somebody (a necrophilic perhaps or someone with a mannequin fetish?) Today, I’m thinking she is asexual, which doesn’t make her a bad person but it does make her, by most standards, a less than stellar fuck.

Capricornius @121

I don't know why you keep focusing on lube. The LW wrote "fully aroused AND wet", so I decided to describe what some of the physical signs he might notice that did not involve lubrication ... and I mentioned a vagina that is not expanding or elongating, with the possibility that he might be hitting her cervix. He could also be encountering clenched muscles at the entrance. You've chosen to ignore these aspects.

As for them moving along the path to marriage while she retains her revulsion for her own vulva in general and oral sex specifically, I look ahead and shudder. I cannot see her deigning to give him a monthly "special" with her current mindset. Even worse, should they have children, can you imagine her in charge of toilet training and, later, sex education ... or, rather, miseducation?

Thanks, DonnyK and Auntie Grizelda

It's gratifying to finally win something ... after years of reading and commenting!

Hunter @124: "Interesting" wasn't a compliment. "Perplexing" was what I hoped to convey.

Helenka @125: I don't see Capri as "focusing on lube." Their comment @121 was an attempt, in my view, to explain that they weren't "focusing" on it, just mentioning it as a factor, because the LW himself had done so when describing what he needed to get around Ms LICK's wanting PIV before she was "physically ready," as you discussed (in bold at that) in your original comment @81. She's not physically ready, how does LICK know she's not physically ready? Because she isn't wet and therefore they need to use lube. Other signs may be there, but he didn't mention them, which indicates to me that lube solves the problem -- at least for him.

BDF @127, you interpreted my comment @121 correctly. Thank you.

The other thing I would say, echoing Harriet @1 and several others throughout this thread, is that GF's negative attitude toward her own body and mouth-to-genital contact is likely to change as she becomes more relaxed and comfortable with sex and with LICK. The worst thing LICK can do right now is try to coerce her into cunni or sex therapy "for her own good" while her brain is still telling her it's like sticking your head in the toilet. Whereas if he stops pressuring her and instead lets her take the lead in their lovemaking, only occasionally asking if he can lick her just a bit as a special favor FOR HIM, she may be able to relax enough to truly enjoy the experience for itself - and over time, come to see that |t's not so "ewww" after all. As Harriet says @1, a lot of people have similar hangups, especially when young and sexually inexperienced. But many, possibly most, can shed their inhibitions over time.

Eight years Capri, and she isn't relaxed yet?
I think this man has been very patient.
Eight long years and this story has gone on, and he's going to marry her? These two don't communicate and give each other satisfactory sex. She needs a man like herself and he needs a woman like himself.
Maybe if he talks about pulling the plug, it might jolt her to look at her attitudes. She doesn't like sex, doesn't allow herself to be aroused, etc etc. she's the one lying here, pretending she's joining him sexually and she really isn't. Fine if she doesn't want sex in her life, then she needs to let go of a man who does.

Exactly, Lava.

Eight years. She hasn't moved away from the simple yet stubborn immaturity of one's early twenties (that can sometimes resemble a charming naiveté but doesn't here). Look, I get learning and becoming less uncomfortable about certain sexual practices. I still regret not taking a step into the unknown in the mid 1990s with one lover. If only I'd known that I would enthusiastically embrace the same activity with my next lover. But, even if I wasn't ready in the 90s, we still had a wide variety of activities on the menu.

Even if we disregard LICK pressuring her, and her conflicted cerebral/emotional responses, they are not on the same page where sex is concerned. STILL - after eight years.

Should he continue to hold out hope that she'll change her mind and evolve ... tomorrow ... or the day after ... or next month ... or next year? How long is long enough, when eight years hasn't been long enough?

Lava @129 and Helenka @130, you may be right: this woman may be on the ace spectrum and/or a repressed prude, who will NEVER overcome her squeamishness about any form of sex other than PIV. But I think you are both projecting your own sexual opinions and attitudes here, whereas a careful reading of the actual letter paints a slightly different picture.

Firstly, just because they have been dating for eight years, does not mean they have been sexually active for eight years. Most likely not, since otherwise LICK would have figured out on his own that she's unlikely to change her thinking. Instead, LICK says they both come from a "body shaming culture" that makes her (usually) unable to relax enough to enjoy fingering and cunni. Also - major point of disagreement here - LICK is NOT dissatisfied with her sexually. He says right up front, in the second sentence, "We have a good sex life."

LICK just wants to expand their repertoire into areas where GF is still shy and squeamish, at least in part because she equates mouth-to-genital contact with licking out a toilet bowl. And all I am saying is that her attitude is more likely to change if he frames cunnilingus as something HE wants and loves, rather than making it all about "fixing" her and breaking through the negative messages of their body-shaming culture. That breakthrough he desires is likely to take much longer to achieve if he keeps pressuring her about it, rather than letting her learn to enjoy a wider variety of sexual pleasures at her own speed. I'm not defending their culture, or saying it's a good thing for women to equate their "luscious gardens" (thank you Lava, sweet phrase) to toilets.

And, once again: if they were truly sexually incompatible, I don't know why he would say that they have a good sex life! Compare DonnyK @123, for an example of true sexual incompatibility, with an ex who was probably asexual. Give LICK a bit of credit - they would probably not be engaged after eight years of dating, if he could not see a happy sexual future with her.

@131: Cap, people say that they have a "good sex life" all the time, only to go on to describe something that sounds lackluster or not fulfilling. If things were really all that good, they wouldn't be writing in to Dan.

Honestly, I can't imagine that what they have is so awesome: rushed, PIV sex with no foreplay and a "get-it-over-with" attitude on the woman's part, a man who has to cajole or badger or somehow get lucky on just the right day and time to be allowed to finger or lick her, and a woman who compares her own vulva to a toilet. There's no dirty talk allowed, which he seems to like (or at least no dirty talk about an activity he enjoys), and I'm pretty sure that there are very few items in the repertoire. Maybe he feels like this is "good," because he still gets to have sex with the woman he loves and to whom he is attracted, that she "lets" him have sex when he wants it (for the most part). I assume he orgasms, so maybe in that he's getting regular sex with an orgasm, it's "good."

But you know how sometimes you think something is "good" just because it's not manifestly terrible and you've forgotten what anything else is like, and you have adapted to it and then one day you experience something of the same kind that is so different in degree and you realize that what you've been eating or drinking or listening to or wearing or whatever is really not all that great? Like for me, drinking diet root beer: it had been so long since I'd had a regular root beer that I'd kind of forgotten what it really tasted like and I had kind of convinced myself that I liked diet root beer and it was really pretty close to regular. And then one day accidentally drinking a regular root beer and going: "holy smokes! This is soooo much better! And not only that, but I've been lying to myself: diet root beer is actually pretty awful." If I'm going to bother drinking soda at all--which I almost never do--I'm not going to be able to settle for that sub-standard diet root beer any more.

DonnyKlicious @123 wrote: "I thought she’d get better, she didn’t."

Yes. People do change but you can't plan on that. I'd advise LICK not to marry his gf unless he's happy with the status quo or he sees significant progress (via therapy) in a set timeframe.

Nocute @132, I know what you mean. "Good" is a relative term, and assumes you know enough about what else is out there to know that what you are calling "good" is truly better than average. In some cases, one person's "good" may be another's "barely adequate" or even "truly awful." But now you are starting to do to LICK what he is doing to his fiancee, namely you are making negative assumptions about his interior thought process that may or may not be true. Only he can decide if he can be "happy with the status quo" as EricaP @133 puts it. If not, he can either break off the engagement himself, or insist that she will need to become more sexually open to him before they can marry - in which case the ball lands back in GF's court. It's up to her to decide whether she'd rather break the engagement, accelerate her own (slow) sexual learning process with LICK, or get professional therapy to overcome her hangups. But none of us can expect good results from forcing our partners (or children!) into therapy that they don't think they need. In some cases it does more harm than good, if the person being therapized is not there of their own free will.

@134: Cap, I have not recommended that they break up or that he force her into therapy. I was simply responding to your comment @131that according to LICK the sex was good.

Helenka @125 wrote:
"Even worse, should they have children, can you imagine her in charge of toilet training"

This has been bugging me and I have some more thoughts now...

I'll admit to finding my genitals gross even though that's not how I'm "supposed" to think. My vagina leaks fluids unpredictably and my anus emits gases unpredictably, and I'm entitled to think they're gross. That doesn't mean that I can't manage my anus and vagina like an adult, and it doesn't mean that I had any issues diapering my kids or toilet training them.

I taught my kids the appropriate terms for their body parts and can't imagine describing a vagina as a "luscious garden" to my kids, any more than I would describe a penis as a "love shaft."

Here's an analogy for those of you who don't find your vaginas at all gross. I'm going to assume most people find their anuses a bit gross. I certainly do. But I love getting fingered up the butt and rimmed. So when I'm aroused, I don't think about how gross it is. Somehow my brain shuts that off because of arousal. That doesn't happen for cunnilingus, because I don't find it arousing.

I'm almost 50 years old. I don't think I'll ever find cunnilingus arousing, and if a person needs me to *want* cunnilingus, then we're incompatible. That said, I believe I've gotten over my issues about cunnilingus because I can participate for a partner who enjoys it. For the first ten years after my assault I couldn't let someone go down on me, but since then I can. But it's never going to be an activity I request.

On the other hand -- I do request to be rimmed, because that actually arouses me. People are entitled to feel aroused by what actually arouses them.

Being GGG means trying some activities that don't sound arousing, and incorporating ones that aren't unpleasant into one's sex life. But I can be GGG and good in bed without loving cunnilingus, and so can LICK's gf -- yes, even if she thinks vaginas are gross. That doesn't mean LICK should stick around if he really wants a partner who begs for cunnilingus. His current gf is probably never going to be that person, and neither am I.

He's says their sex life is good But he's written in, and pointed out all these behaviours and attitudes which to me, say their sex life is not good and that his gf is either not interested in sex / damaged around her sexual core or she's not really attracted to him.
If this guy is happy to marry a woman with such self loathing about her luscious vagina, his call.
If he stays, he could talk about opening the relationship/ marriage up, perhaps not right now/ he's been happy enough with the status quo till now. Or you know go the fuck without a lover who enjoys herself, who treasures her beautiful woman bits.

It seems to me that there's a happy medium between EricaP's attitude and LavaGirl's, but that Ms. LICK still falls outside that entire venn diagram.

@107. ciods. Oh, I think men often want it to be over and done with. When I top--which isn't my 'natural' sexual activity--I often do. I have faked orgasms, rather than given up; then probably my breathing has been unconvincing.

I guess it's a pity that people in at-least-partly happy relationships (feel they) have to fake it.

Over orgasms, perhaps my biggest question personally is in convincing partners that I have come non-emissively (have had a prostate orgasm). There's ooze but not ejaculate. I don't know the science of this (surely, more is known about moonshots than cumshots); but subjectively it's an orgasm. This is the opposite situation to women faking: coming but it's not being accepted I've come.

LavaGirl @137 re "a lover who enjoys herself" -- don't you think it might be reasonable to have a clothes-on conversation about what his current gf does enjoy in bed and might like more of, before discussing opening the relationship?

If they talk with each other honestly, Erica. Maybe with a therapist would be best..

Ms Cute - You recall to mind The Opposite of Sex when the still-newly-bi Matt is about to order a Diet Coke along will Bill and Lucia but, at a look from Dede, changes to a "regular" Coke.

My first thought was Rumpole's lesson for Tristan and Isolde Erskine Brown, "There is no pleasure worth sacrificing for the sake of five extra years in the Old People's Home in Weston-super-Mare," but I decided that might not exactly apply. It might be worth sacrificing some pleasures for the sake of being able to wear smaller sizes. Where do you stand on the question of whether diet sodas actually don't contribute to weight loss/maintenance?

I'm much in the same general camp regarding taste. Aspartame seemed such a step up from saccharine that it became acceptable for a while. When I gave it up over digestive concerns, the difference did lead me to wonder how I could have put up with diet things so long.

My usual problem is having to give things up because my favourite variety was discontinued. I went off honey for almost two decades when I couldn't get tulip poplar any more.

@107. Bi. I would think 'the sex being over when the guy comes' (in OS sex) a good strategy but maybe not a good 'general strategy' or 'norm'. A lot has to turn (right?) on the guy's recovery time? If he can get hard again (or aroused again or in the mood again) after 20 minutes or so of light touching (snuggling may be out for most men), the sex can go on. Is this new sex or the same sex? If his partner comes this second time, have they come in the same love-making session? Maybe these are semantic differences.

It can be a very rewarding experience to be brusquely fucked by a selfish top. I've certainly crossed town for it, knowing what I was going to get. Other times, I'd want to have an orgasm as well as the guy topping me.

@109. Erica. That sounds like a 'three-hand problem' (the spanking, holding-a-vibrator and nipple-tweaking). Lucky you!

@115. Bi. The reason to be skeptical is so that 'you' (the man or any lover fucking a potentially faking woman) can try to do different things, or the same things in another order, next time--and give her an orgasm. And achieve this without the need for an ex post facto conversation, which may be awkward or painful, or expose insecurities or a pattern of deception (or of self-deception).

I've had sex with women, come first and felt under an 'obligation' to get her off. Usually, here, because 'I was crap' e.g. came prematurely. But these are not the circumstances in which I (now) have my characteristic sex with women--which is grouping.

Actually, and on another topic, I'd be with Dadddy in thinking that--on the back of sharply observed but limited experience--that I could tell whether a woman was faking. (But I accept that there will be wishful thinking in this). A lot of the time I've seen someone almost cross the line but not get there. This is because, perhaps, the circumstances of the sex--in a group scene--are inhibitory for some. Alternatively, many of these women move away at a point of moderate arousal because they want to come with someone else--like someone they love; someone they desire (I'd guess some see me as an interesting friend), a woman etc....

EricaP @136

Aren't you identifying with Ms LICK a bit too closely? Even "gross" does not reach the depth of revulsion that "toilet" does. Plus, you show in your example that you managed to neutralize most of the unwelcome reminders a particular sex act brought up, before you found one that arouses you though many people wouldn't have it in their personal sexual repertoire.

You've increased your range of sexual activities to incorporate D/s (which can take endless subversive hours to fulfill or can be done surreptitiously as in how you serve coffee? to your husband in plain sight) and IIRC sex with other partners with whom you enjoy yourself, spending MORE time on sex rather than LESS. And you've been able to teach your children in a competent manner (that definitely shouldn't need ridiculous flowery euphemisms).

But Ms LICK is not you. I still believe her intensely negative beliefs will bleed through to her children. After all, even "Don't touch down there; it's dirty" has done a lot to contribute to the way many young women have to struggle to overcome that negative conditioning so they can begin to learn to enjoy their sexuality. Whoever specifically taught Ms LICK that vulva/vagina = "toilet" did an excellent job of brainwashing her.

@146: Helenka, I don't think that finding one's own adult vulva gross in terms of oral sex will have any bearing at all on how one approaches either diapering or toilet training with one's future children. I do think it possible that someone with Ms. LICK's attitude may communicate that attitude to any daughters she might have as they get older, but that's a different thing.

@142: Mr. Ven: First of all, The Opposite of Sex is one of my favorite movies (as is Happy Endings--I don't think anyone but Don Roos has appreciated Lisa Kudrow's abilities fully), so thank you for mentioning it this Monday morning!
Secondly, my example was a bit of a cheat, in that I
(a) have never really been a drinker of sodas
and
(b) never, ever, really was able to fool myself into thinking that diet sodas tasted as good as regular ones.

I was excited when aspartame was introduced, because I'd never been able to stand diet sodas sweetened with saccharine, and I tried them; but like you, I came to the quick attitude that "better doesn't mean good" and simply cut back to one regular soda every 5 years or so.

I think that the incredibly high sodium content of diet sodas renders them unhealthy, but my personal jury is out as to whether they conduct the opposite of weight loss.

EricaP @140: I thought Lava was talking about ending the relationship, not opening it.

Harriet @143: I think you're overestimating the "need" for a man to recover and continue with the sex in OS contexts. Women generally accept that once the guy has come, whether they have or not, that's sex done for the night. Of course there are exceptions, but you're projecting something that must be totally common with gay men, one of whom will always not have come when the first male ejaculation occurs, onto straight people, for whom this is not the case. Most straight guys don't feel an obligation to get aroused again after they've got their partner off and themselves off. And most women, who on average have lower sex drives than their partners, don't demand this either. So long as both parties have come, most women are totally fine with his orgasm coming last. Many would get annoyed if he wanted to start up again 20 minutes later! In other words, stopping after coming doesn't make a straight guy a "selfish top." It makes him a straight guy.

Harriet @145: That's still not an argument for being skeptical. It's an argument for communicating. A woman faking is communicating something -- she's communicating that she's not going to come, but she wants you to think that she has. If she actually wanted to come, she would communicate that you, her lover, should do something different? She should ask for what she wants? If she's not going to ask, and if she's going to further send him off the trail of what she does like by pretending she likes what she doesn't*, she frankly doesn't deserve an orgasm.

* You're assuming the faking woman would come if the lover did something different, which may or may not be the case. It could be that she just doesn't come at all. Or it could be that what he's doing usually works just fine, but she's preoccupied or tired or some other reason that's nothing to do with him. So, ask her, "Did you enjoy that? Would you like it harder? Softer? Faster? Slower?" Don't play orgasm detective, sheesh.

BiDanFan @148, -- she suggested LICK had to (a) open the relationship, (b) end the relationship, or (c) accept not having a lover who enjoys herself.

I proposed another option: (d) discuss what his gf enjoys in bed and do more of that.

I think it would be harder to fake an orgasm when your partner has his face/hands between your legs as you'd surely feel those muscle contractions up close and personal. Having never had my face and hands up in a woman's genitalia, I guess I'm asking more than anything. Can't you tell?

As for the orgasms themselves, Dan is right that this doesn't necessarily mean she's having fun (though LW is the one to know better than us)- I can cum from fingering very easily. I don't like it, the build up to it is frustrating and the orgasm is not nearly so good- more a mechanical thing than a full body experience.

Regarding faking, not something I do- women sometimes are not going to come. Sometimes you know it. Doesn't mean you aren't enjoying yourself. Being able to communicate that is important, also a man being receptive to that message without taking it to his ego or as a challenge is important. Sometimes you can tell the guy is going on and on because he wants you to orgasm and yes it gets boring. Best thing to do here is communicate or switch activities. A blow job is a good way to communicate all of this- I'm having fun, I'm not going to cum, I'm ready for you to cum, we're all happy- without having to say a word. Though if this were a repeating problem (orgasmless sex) this is not a good solution- I just mean for those (hopefully rare) occasions where it's not going to happen. WOuldn't work for this couple who, I lean more towards agreeing with Lava here, need to work out why their sex life sucks before they get married and certainly before they have kids.

Also just a "I want to see you cum" said to the guy, unless that's going to put on pressure. But faking, I don't know- it just seems like something a young inexperienced bashful woman would do. I'd feel stupid trying to fake it.

Griz is now catching up with reading the comment threads. So much that is well said here--an excellent column this week, offering wonderful reads.
@150 EmmaLiz: Congrats on hitting the one-fifty mark! Anyone for a two-hunsky?

Ms Cute - Eh, that still counts enough. I could have one a week, but it tends to average out about one a month.

@149, Erica. After eight years I'm guessing he's already asked that question. He sure know what she doesn't like. No fingers. No tongue. And close to dry fucking. Therapy is needed here now, if these two want to enter marriage authentically.

I agree, LavaGirl, that they don't see able to communicate without therapy. I was struck that he said
>> I wish I could help her overcome her body issues—but when I "use my words," she feels pressured and can't relax. >>

To me, that's very different from saying "I have tried many times to open a conversation about what she wants sexually and she can't tell me."

He's using his words to pressure her, rather than to encourage her to talk about her preferences. His goal is "to overcome her body issues" rather than to find out what she likes, because he wants to get his way in the end.

Also, he signs off as "LICK" because what he wants is cunnilingus, not whatever-she-enjoys.

@148. Bi. Oh, I agree with you about the 'need' i.e. the lack of need felt by men to show their partners a good time, finally, after they've, the guys, have come. That has to be common across gay and straight men and all points in between. I would probably feel under more of a moral obligation to get a female partner off as a 'tourist': I'm a city-dweller walking in the Alps, enjoying myself; and it's not too much trouble to run back up a pass I've already crossed ... well, I don't know what the metaphor is. I often come non-emissively in being fucked before my partner has ejaculated. It is not the case, for me, that orgasm and ejaculation are the same thing (any more than they are, necessarily, for women).

@145. Bi. You're looking at it more from the pov of the woman having sex with the faker. I'm trying to identify with the woman faking. People are more complicated than your tone grants. There are all sorts of power dynamics in relationships that could prevent someone faking from asking directly for what might please her more--differentials of age or status or apparent sexual experience or expertise; or subtle or overt forms of domination, that could mean--without a relationship becoming intolerable for her--that she will be inhibited in asking; she may intimate or hint or leave to be understood, but not ask. And women may not know enough about their own bodies, in the early stages of their having sex; and many could have internalized punitive cultural expectations, about sex being fulfilling and a way of tending to yourself, and find it hard to avow it's not happening for them, that they and their partner aren't living the fantasy.

I'd think that even relationships with potential can have a partner who fakes. This person will have tied themselves up in knots thinking that they need to 'live up to' their partner's excellence--and are not shattering the illusion by being honest. It’s just about conceivable to me that their lover's learning by observation is going to come up with better solutions for their sex life than frank conversation.

EricaP @155: Or maybe he's using the right words at the wrong time -- ie, when they are having sex, not during a fully clothed conversation in the living room after a glass of wine but before any touching or kissing has happened. In a setting when there is no pressure.

Harriet @157: While it is possible for (some) men to have orgasms without ejaculating, as you say, the most common way this happens is during receptive penetration -- which is not a typical menu item for opposite-sex couples. And when pegging does happen, it's far less likely the penetrator will have an orgasm, as her cock is made of silicone. (Not impossible; I have indeed come while pegging, but as it's a similarly "less physical" orgasm, it's unlikely to be the last orgasm I want to have that evening.)

"You're looking at it more from the pov of the woman having sex with the faker." No, I wasn't looking at it from a lesbian perspective at all. My context for the whole faking debate is the stereotypical "woman fakes an orgasm for the purpose of her lover's male ego" scenario. Do women fake for other women? No doubt some do; but as there are no male egos or ejaculations involved, the main motives I am addressing for faking don't exist in a woman-on-woman scenario. Perhaps it was because my sapphic career started later, but the women I've been with have been up front about how they come and whether they come and the fact that they're tired and would like to stop now. "I'm not going to come, but it's okay, I've really enjoyed myself" does not seem to be something women have a hard time saying to each other, because we know our partner will understand.

Dadddy @158: Absolutely, any good lover wants their partner to enjoy themself! In my experience, if something didn't seem to be "doing it" for a lover, I'd stop long before they got to a place where they felt like they needed a get-it-over-with fake. However, I can't say for sure that I've never been with a man who faked because he was tired, wasn't going to come, but felt some societal obligation to "finish" sex, or that I'd be offended if he didn't.

The conclusion of this whole discussion for me is how glad I am to no longer be in my 20s.

A glass of wine is not going to get this woman loving her pussy, so I'm really baffled at attempts to treat this as just different strokes. This woman is alienated from herself, something is blocking her self love, and she needs a skilled person to help her clear it.

@159. Bi. Are you up on the latest science of whether prostate orgasms are the same as non-ejaculatory 'regular' orgasms? I would say they're not.... It’s easy during masturbation to come but choke off emitting. You (a man, I mean) can then come serially (not multiply) without serious loss of stiffness. But (to me) this sensation is of a relatively superficial 'ordinary' orgasm; and a prostate orgasm, such as I will get being buggered, is much more pleasurably involving.

We have different instincts re women's motivations for faking. (I would think you're more likely to be right than me, in that I will know--to that degree of conversational intimacy--a subsection of more 'confident' women). You think women mostly fake to please the man's ego. I'd think they fake, in cunnilingus and manual play, because--for whatever reason--they want the sex to be over: it's become physically irritating, or psychologically badgering or oppressively needy. Or the situation is off some other way. When I ask myself why women repeatedly fake simultaneous orgasms (granting that PIV sex will be over with him 'croaking'), well, then, that does seem to be to please the guy. Or to be a desperate, too-late effort to arouse themselves. Or be a bit clueless.

Bi @159: The conclusion of this whole discussion for me is how glad I am to no longer be in my 20s.

Amen!

Harriet @161: Fascinating discussion :)

My comments have focused on faking during PIV because I can't really envision that faking during cunnilingus or fingering is very common. Not only because oral is the most effective way to get me to come, but because in practice, when oral hasn't been doing it for me, I just pull my lover up, give them a big sloppy kiss, and move on to something else. If my lover is a man, that something else is usually PIV, and I've never experienced and can't picture a man saying "no wait, I wasn't done eating you yet!" Though I suppose perhaps that is what LICK is doing, and perhaps that is why Ms LICK is faking.

You also speak of "faking simultaneous orgasms." I think what you mean is that the woman makes more noise when the man is coming. This might just be her enjoying his orgasm -- the sensations are intense, and his moans are a turn-on -- rather than pretending she is coming too, which, at that moment, is not going to make the sex end any more quickly! If you knew that moaning would make your partner's orgasm even more enjoyable, why wouldn't you moan? Also, it might indeed not be "too late." Exaggerating can sometimes bring on a for-real orgasm. The woman may be thinking it's at least worth a try, as it may be her last chance to come, at least with him involved.

RE: Lick
The gentleman, if he stays in the relationship, may well find that the "eww- GROSS" label will migrate from oral to just about every other aspect of intimacy. Entering my relationship with my miss N. I knew from our dating history that I had the more needy libido amongst the 2 of us and my strategy was to try to include her orgasm in every encounter, since once she was aroused, she was very enthusiastic. Many times she resisted my efforts to bring her along, though, and was content that I was satisfied.
Fast forward several decades.
Now that I have many, many, more miles on my odometer, It would be nice to be able to pleasure her with some variety, but for her there is but one approach and all others are excluded. For LICK, It will be frustrating, but IMHO, he needs to explore other avenues, even if it includes a magic wand.

If ever the commentariat would have appreciated having LICK register and chime in, this would have been the perfect week for it. Then we wouldn't be scratching our heads over

But she says she would enjoy it if she could let me. I can't make heads or tails of it!

We could ask LICK directly about Ms LICK's orgasms otherwise and other pertinent details that could inform Dan's and our opinions. Yadda yadda. But I guess this week's column is just going to get stale and cold.

Hunter @164

Remember that the concept of women having sexual pleasure and achieving orgasms is relatively recent in the western world. Consequently, it's no surprise that the so-called sexperts would consider a mutual orgasm to be the pinnacle of intercourse ... especially considering that men weren't going to get it up again quickly enough ... and the woman was supposed to derive her peak solely from the action of the penis. [Yeah, thanks a lot, Freud. /s]

@daddy 158, thanks for saying so, and no worries, none of this is personal for me. I don't live in Seattle and I've never met any of the Stranger commenter brigade. I'm just a strange observer, and occasionally commenter.

It's great that you welcome honest input from your partner(s). I'd just encourage you to be realistic that you're not always going to get it, for any number of reasons, and that's okay. Sex and relationships are complicated. Being a good lover also means sometimes chilling out and letting an experience be something else besides producing thigh-quaking orgasms for your partner.

Personally, I'd be super duper annoyed by a partner that measured his own sexual success by my orgasms. That, sir, is pressure, which is a huge libido killer. I prefer a partner who trusts me enough to tell him what I want and whether I'm satisfied without insisting that it has to look like what he thinks it should look like. I'm not saying you do that - just talking in general, bouncing off your previous comments about being an orgasm skeptic and trying to develop yourself sexually to give good head. It's awesome to develop your skills. The tongue and finger skills are not the only important ones though.

@163. BiDan. The impression you're giving me is that the man is going at it hammer and tongs with the PIV--and the woman fakes to please him? So the man can come and be done? Clearly this is more frequent than I'd supposed; you have to remember my experience with women is patchy.

I agree that exaggeration can bring on a for-real orgasm; and that there's a narrow window of wriggling and thrashing before his refractory period.

Hun!

I see you still can't make an effort to type four more letters of my name. Sigh.

Commenters have already mentioned at length how much pressure is put on just having an orgasm ... let alone having a simultaneous one, when neither partner can appreciate the other's because of their own often tumultuous waves of pleasure.

Please spare me the delusions of young love at whatever age. Or would you prefer that LICK add that extra requirement (or price of admission) to his couplings with Ms. LICK, just to maintain the illusion that their love is complete?

Harriet @170: Based on my limited and now decades-old experience (I now have the confidence to speak up when I'm getting bored of PIV), limited conversations with other women and projection, yes, this is the most common reason for faking. Many men, whether from porn, popular folklore, or the fact that some women do indeed want a man to keep pounding away ad nauseam, think this is what we want (and unless we speak up, how will they know otherwise?). Desperate to avoid a "premature ejaculation," some young men feel they need to go all night to prove their studliness. And it persists -- several years ago I had a FWB in his late 40s who was of this "more is more" mindset, and said that I was the first woman who ever encouraged him to take "his turn" to come after I was satisfied. How common this is, I'm not sure, but I recall "I have never games" where more than half the room, including some men, drank to the question "I have never faked an orgasm." Once or twice vs regularly, I couldn't tell you. I'm hoping it's the former!

Helenka @171: "neither partner can appreciate the other's [orgasm] because of their own often tumultuous waves of pleasure."

Um wow, this is not my experience at all. Simultaneous orgasms don't distract from, but enhance, my own orgasm. They're something that's almost impossible to achieve in casual sex, because you really need to know how your partner's body works to get the timing right. Not only am I experiencing "tumultuous waves of pleasure," but I can feel his penis jerking inside me, which intensifies the sensations, just as the contractions of my vagina are intensifying his.

That said, I would still say orgasms from oral sex are more physically satisfying for me, due to there being far more nerve endings in the clit than in the vagina. Sorry, Hunter (and Freud).

Dear luscious gardeners, the vulva is no pristine sanctum of purity. I wouldn't compare mine to a toilet, but Ms. LICK's issues may not be all psychological. In my 20s I had a series of UTIs before figuring out that peeing after sex (oral/anal/manual/PIV) flushed out the urethra and, ta-da, no more UTIs! Unfortunately, I am still prone to visualizing bacteria migrating up my uretha during sex. My partner helps allay my feelings of squickiness by licking/rubbing front-to-back and avoiding the urethral opening. As Dan says, if LICK can help his fiancee figure out what gets her out of her squicky headspace, whether it's being freshly showered, dental dams, mouthwash, the element of surprise or whatever, it might help her relax and enjoy during oral.