Comments

1

I would add one more question for LOSER: how is it that these experiences are getting brought up in casual conversation? It’s not out of the realm of possibility that your girlfriend has mentioned these sexual experiences as a way of broaching her interest in them. It could be that her prior partners were more experienced and took the lead in her sexual adventures, especially if her interests shade toward sexual submissiveness, and that she isn’t comfortable taking initiative with respect to kink. It may also be that her interest in vanilla sex isn’t very high, but her sex drive might be ramped up by kink.

In any event, if one or more of the sex experiences she described interests you, or you have your own kinky interests you would like to explore, tell he so. The worst she can say is no. And if your girlfriend isn’t up for those things any more, I think it’s reasonable to ask that she not bring them up in conversation with you.

2

Just watch Chasing Amy.

3

Maybe it's a reverse Madonna-Whore thing? Sexual adventures were for hot young bad boys, now that she has a middle aged nice guy it's time for missionary with the lights off once a month.

4

Jealousy is one of two things: either I want what you have or I don't want you to have what I don't have. Obviously the latter isn't possible in this case. Can't unring a bell, right?

So she's got this sexual history that you don't have and you want one? Well, what stopped you in the past? Is this a desire that pre-dates this relationship or does hearing about it make you think you missed out? I think that's the first part to figure out.

Next would probably be sorting out whether you want these experiences with her or on your own? Sounds from your letter like she's done with sexual adventures. Perhaps, as Dan suggested, she did stuff to please former lovers and it wasn't her groove. Perhaps, she had her fun and was just ready to be done with it (sort of how I feel about amusement parks). So how important is it that you have these experiences? Important enough to end the relationship, talk about a degree of openness so you could explore on your own, or ask (ASK) her to join you on some? Or are you willing to live with these feelings in exchange for what you've got with your girlfriend?

I just think you need to drill down a bit on your jealousy before you come at your girlfriend with all your words. Get some clarity and hopefully talking with her honestly will help you guys get more clarity.

The only thing I strongly caution against is making your feelings her responsibility. She should be considerate but should not end up feeling like she has to walk on eggshells because she rode some rollercoasters you didn't.

5

I think LW should regale his girlfriend with all the times when he was approaching middle age that he got to bang a 20-something hottie

6

You aren't there for fun, you're there for financial security and stability now she wants to start a family. You are a daddy - for her future children and for her.

You have infrequent, vanilla sex because that is as about as much as she is willing to endure to have what she wants in the long run. It won't get any better and one day you'll get caught having an affair and then you will be milked for alimony and spat out (pardon the mixed metaphor).

You need to find the self-respect now to get out before this happens, or it will happen to you.

I don't hate women or have some misogynistic axe to grind, I just watched the same thing happen to my brother over the last 15 years. She probably doesn't even realize she's doing it.

7

You're banging a chick 20 years younger than you are and are and still finding shit to bitch about.
Shut the fuck up.

8

I would bet that LW’s GF senses the jealousy related to her past, it’s a huge turn off, and LW would have been dumped already if he wasn’t providing otherwise satisfactory companionship. LW needs to use his words as Dan suggests ASAP.

9

How are people figuring the GF is in her 20s? Maybe she's in her 40s. I figure anyone who uses the word "dour" is probably an AARP member. Granted, that's about as reasonable as @6's universal extrapolation of his brother's experience.

10

@6 WOW, and all women are the same, just out to trap you poor, poor, helpless men into providing security and children; because women aren't capable of such great things without men, amirite?
And your brother cheating and puting his wife's life and health at risk of STDs was all her fault, because men has no control whatsoever over their actions? Dude, you sound like a real prize!

11

Yes communicate, see what your partner enjoyed and didn't and why etc. Then see what she's up for now. But I'd add that if it's none of those things anymore and you are frustrated with your vanilla lack of experiences, you probably ought not be settling down here and now with her.

To me, it doesn't sound like this is a case of a guy being disturbed by the fact that his GF had fun sex before him because he's jealous or insecure. It just sounds like he realizes now he wishes he could do those things too, but he's stuck in a relationship with someone who is not willing, and he finds it particularly frustrating because she's done those things in the past. I think he shouldn't conflate the two things. It's worthwhile to clarify how she felt about those things in the past but it's only relevant to the conversation about would she enjoy them again in the future. Generally speaking, it's irrelevant what she did in the past. That's not the problem The problem is that he'd like to do those things now and she is not interested. To me, it sounds like much more a run of the mill sexual incompatibility issue. He wants to be kinky, she doesn't.

@2 What could Chasing Amy have to do with this? From what I remember, it was about a woman who was supposedly so traumatized by being bullied about having a threesome that she became a lesbian until she fell for a guy who couldn't get over the fact that she had a threesome because apparently he is a boring bland guy that lives under a rock. What does that has to do with this situation? Or do I misremember the film? I admit to think it was incredibly stupid so maybe I'm not remembering it correctly.

12

@7 younger women aren't trophies to brag about, and aren't by definition better sex partners than older women.

13

Mirea's right, this guy must be at least 60 based on his old-fashioned language. "Rather dour", "our relationship germinating", "this very experience" all combine to set a tone in the letter that's a bit old codgerish.
Unless he's 38 and was born an old codger. He could be David Mitchell's character in "Peep Show"!

14

@11 once the guy finds out she's not a lesbian and has done tons of stuff with guys he freaks out then tries to "fix" it by making her relive some of that with him by having a three some with his friend. Then she breaks up with him for being an idiot and not taking into consideration that those wild days are over for a reason and the simple relationship that they had was what she wanted for herself now.

It is kind of relevant because if he tries to use the same flawed logic of she did it once--she can do it again with me! Then he can lose her. If she isn't interested now, even if she was then, then you have to let it go or break up.

15

I guess that makes sense, honeybunny. I just thought the entire Chasing Amy thing was incredibly ridiculous from the get-go, as if women are lesbians because they were shamed for sex with men, as if having a threesome is a big deal, as if boyfriends would freak out if they found out their GF had a threesome years and years ago anyway, etc. I don't remember the bf in that movie wanting the GF to have a threesome again- that part is probably relevant. Also the fact that both seem like guys who've had only vanilla sex with few other experiences.

16

My guess was also an older guy with a woman in her 30s-50s who had some party days in her youth but is now not interested. It's not the girlfriend's fault that the older guy did not likewise have fun while he was young, and I agree that she shouldn't be pressured or blamed for it. And also I don't know where that poster gets off assuming the woman has no money or security of her own or - even if that's the case- what the fuck that has to do with the situation. They could be younger though. In any case, the problem is that the BF wants to do these things now and he's very likely not going to get them from his GF, so he needs to think about what he wants to do and what he wants more or if they can make an arrangement or if he can get over it, etc. The fact that she's done stuff in the past is actually irrelevant other than that the experiences might be her basis for refusing now. If she's not willing to be kinky with him then it doesn't matter what she's done in the past, and if she's willing to be kinky with him, then it likewise doesn't matter. What matters is what she wants now and what he wants now and if they can be compatible.

17

LOSER sounds a bit clueless. Whether he's 40-50-60-ish, I believe he's going through a unique midlife crisis. Only, in his case, he's not wanting that much younger woman for her perky body parts, he wants to recapture those 20-40 years where he wasn't pursuing what he wanted.

Did he presume automatically that her younger age would make her an easy mark ... a pliable sex object? Referring to a recent SL column, people shouldn't need to have to justify why they don't want to do something sexually, even if it is something they did in the past - especially if there had been coercion.

Then again, I will admit it's odd that she does mention her escapades every so often. From the way he included a world-weary "(We've discussed.)" I get the impression that he's been whining instead of asking, then dropping. Is this their choice of sequential passive-aggressive torture? If so, they're incompatible.

18

@10 Yes yes okay but @6 still has a point. It's something to consider--a word of warning, not a grotesque caricature of all women. Men and women alike can take advantage of men and women.

19

@11, @14, @15

If you watch Chasing Amy from Joey Lauren Adams’ lesbian POV, you’re totally correct. This is a movie about a woman repeatedly bullied for having some sex. But, the movie is told from Ben Affleck’s POV where he’s a vanilla dude freaked out about wild sex from the start (he even gets uncomfortable when Adams and Jason Lee are exchanging sex story scars). Act 3 kicks off when Affleck freaks out about Adams not being a total lesbian and having had wild sex with men, and then tries to pressure her into having wild sex with him and Lee (and then she righteously dumps his ass).

It seems like an instructional warning to this LW. LW gets a hot gf who is suddenly sated with her sex life, and has already had her adventures. As I was reading this letter, I could hear Adams’ breakup speech in my head. “I’ve been down that road. Many times. But, I’m not your fucking whore.”

Basically, the dude is a jerk and he’s going to lose this one if he doesn’t treat her right.

20

Misanthrope, the story doesn't work though because lesbians aren't created from straight women who are shamed for having sex. Unless she's bi in the movie? I thought the whole idea was that she's a straight woman who becomes a lesbian because she was bullied about having sex with men. This is something that doesn't exist in real life- that's not what makes people lesbians, and if you are straight, all the male bullying in the world isn't going to make you a lesbian. Trust me, I know. If being sick of sex shaming and double standars could make a woman a lesbian, we'd all be lesbians.

Also maybe I'm being too soft on the LW, but I disagree that he's being a jerk. He's realizing he wants some kinky stuff in his life now- the girlfriend talking about it has brought it up and now he realizes he's missing it. If he tries to blame this on her or convince her to do something she doesn't want to do, THAT would make him a jerk. But if he decides he wants more than vanilla sex, that's a legitimate thing to want and he needs to make some hard choices. If that means "losing" her, that might be OK- and it doesn't make him a jerk nor does it mean he's mistreating her. Though I don't see why it would have to be something that dramatic, there are other options.

21

@18

No he doesn't have a point as it's completely irrelevant to the LW's question. Whether or not money and security are an issue in this relationship (might be, might not be) has nothing to do with what he asked or the situation they are in nor with the kinkiness or vanillaness of either kind of arrangement. It's just something that @6 brought up because he does (even if he doesn't realize it) have an axe to grind. That's what happens when you have an axe to grind- you see that issue in everything, even in situations in which it's irrelevant and no one said anything about it.

22

Watch it with the old godger label for a sixty yr old, busy @13.
Whatever age this guy is he sounds like a brat. I'm with @7, maybe with sweeter language. You've managed to catch a woman twenty yrs your jounior LW, maybe she's worried you'd not be up to her pace or get jealous. Seeing her with a younger, more virile man.

23

Don't couples share their past sexual histories with each other, not expecting their partner to be envious rather to just hear the stories.
Stop sounding like a two year old, LW, be an adult man and ask your partner for what you'd like. Then listen to her answer. Go from there. And don't assume she will oblige you, just because you feel entitled.

24

Maybe girlfriend was a wild thing and ultimately found it lonely and unsatisfying, fucking but never connecting. Now she's thinking "been there, done that". You've discussed your vanilla, predictable sex life, but what did you decide to do about it? Dull sex is only 50% her fault. What have YOU done to step up your game? Perhaps she's starting to view you as the boring, old stick-up-his-ass codger that your letter makes you sound like. Time for innovative solutions. Buy her a Sybian and squeeze her tits while she gets off a couple dozen times. See if that doesn't perk her up. And stop whining about the delicious fruit parfait she got to eat when she was younger and all you had was sticks and dirt to chew on. Life's not fair. Concentrate on the now.

25

Oh Donny, love that image. Squeezed tits and all.

26

Could always offer her MFM threesomes (no recip expected on her part) with the guy of her choice or offer to open the relationship, that way you can pursue your interests by yourself, and she can do whatever or whoever she wants on her own.

27

This man sounds British. And he'd like more sex, like they have discussed. Let's hope she hits the rd soon, this guy sounds suffocating.

28

Is the problem that Ex has a past at all or that she keeps rubbing LOSER's nose in it? If the latter, LOSER might ask Ex to stop: "I know we all have pasts, but would you mind not bringing yours up? It bothers me." If the former, LOSER might think about his own past, maybe bring that up in conversation. Or here's an idea: If a relationship is making you unhappy, maybe break up? That sounds so nuclear, but LOSER brings up his jealousy and dissatisfaction with frequency and vanilla-ness while stating what's good about the relationship in terms of its being "functional". Way to go with the compliments! Just seems to me that if your sex life is that bad, infrequent AND unsatisfying, nevermind what's in the past, the present alone is reason to keep looking.

29

Over/Under this guy will eventually realize he's a cuck (and not of the political variety)?

30

There are two sides to this. Both LW and his gf are showing serious gaps in their relationship. LW is sad that his sex life is not as interesting as hers. She misses her sex life enough that shes mentioned it in a positive light to LW, implying she misses it and LW probably isnt satisfying her.

On one hand, LW needs to get a grip on his jealousy. Yes, its understandable that you never had those amazing sexual adventures and you feel bad about it later in life. Some guys never go to Paris. Some guys never own a motorcycle. Others never get a 3way. But if you feel "left out" you need to communicate thats what you want to try, and if she isnt down for it, the ball is in your court whether to call it off or accept that the best youll get is whatever unsatisfactory sex youre getting.

As for her, by mentioning her sexual escapades in the past she is clearly showing that she does not see you as a valid sexual partner. I wont go as far as others saying she probably sees you as a security blanket (missionary lights off and a handjob once a month), but I will say two things: 1- She enjoyed her previous sex life enough to bring it up to you without saying how much of a downgrade sex with you is and 2- She sees you as a security blanket, not really there for sex, but there for something else. Its stupid to say what, but whatever it is, it is not making you happy. You even named yourself LOSER.

People saying you should be happy dating a woman 20 years younger than you probably don't date anyone at all. YOu need to date someone that makes you happy. Make sure you actually mesh with this woman, and you arent dating her out of "gratitude for dating an older man". Whatever you do don't marry her.

31

I am LW's gf!

(I'm not LW's gf, but I might as well be.)

Here's what's going on with me, and the answers to everyone's questions:

I've enjoyed some wild sexual experiences in the past
My past partners were usually the ones to initiate and plan that stuff
That doesn't automatically mean that I like to initiate that stuff myself
I actually do like to initiate kinky stuff sometimes, just not with LW
LW doesn't "get to" enjoy certain experiences with me just because I did those things with my exes
I am not a sex vending machine
LW's a great guy, but he can be a little self-pitying sometimes
I am 100% breaking up with him after reading his letter

32

Great answer from Dan. I can picture the letter from Ms LOSER: "Dear Dan, in my past I had partners who didn't care much about me, who only treated me like a sex accessory for their swinging. I also was bi-curious, and had a few threesomes, but realised from these experiences that I'm not into women. Now I've met someone older who I thought was more mature and settled. He doesn't seem to have much interest in getting creative in bed; he sometimes complains that we're not having enough sex, but he doesn't do much to make it interesting for me. The worst thing is that whenever I mention my past experiences, he sulks like a child. Dan, how can I get him to stop judging me for my past?"

Sublime @1: That was the one thing I thought was missing from Dan's answer. If LOSER asks his girlfriend to participate in some adventures with him and she says she's done, the least she can do is not talk about her swinging past. And yes, good point -- she could be mentioning these experiences in hopes LOSER will say "that sounds like fun, we should do something like that sometime." Instead, he pouts. How old is this guy?

Durden @8: Good point. Not much is a bigger turnoff than a grown man acting like a sulky child.

Re ages, my guess was also that they are in their 30s and 50s respectively.

Helenka @17: I think this is a different situation to "she should just say she doesn't want to do it, end of conversation." Apparently she's the one who brought up these adventures in the first place, so I do think that if he asks her to reprise them and she says no, she should tell him why not. What's different now compared to then. Because it matters -- if her answer is that she did these things under pressure from exes, that's a different situation than she just feels perhaps that she's too old to do them now.

Emma @20: It really seems like every one of us saw only ourselves in Chasing Amy. To me, she was obviously bi, but in a phase where she was only interested in women, which Ben Affleck's character didn't respect.

I'm not sure whether LOSER is being a jerk. There are a lot of assumptions about what they have and haven't discussed. If he has brought up his desire for more variety and she's said no, but continues to bring up her past, then she's the one who's being a jerk. No way to know.

Commenter @6 IS a jerk. That much is certain.

33

Hah, comments crossed, I didn't have to picture the letter from Ms LOSER. Sarah @31, I wish you the best.

34

LW sounds like a serious wanker. This is 20-something stuff. Grow up, dude.

35

@32 Wait...

So, if I talk about my ultra adventurous sexual past with a current lover, I’m obliged to re-enact those adventures with that lover if the lover feels jealous and wants to do them with me? And, if I don’t want to do those things with this current lover for whatever reason, I can’t ever talk about my sexual past again?

That’s kind of screwed up.

36

@21 We all do that.

@32 We're all jerks.

We're on the Internet.

37

@6 beat me to what I was going to say.

If she's been sexual in the past with other guys, but she's hardly sexual with you, you are better off moving on now before the future that 6 outlined happens to you.

She has told you with her actions exactly how she sees you and I see zero chance of her adventures happening again with you. With other guys, sure. You're already having talks to try to negotiate more vanilla sex, which she is only kindof interested in with you.

Dump her.

38

I do think the LOSER should watch Chasing Amy. In it a lesbian and Ben Affleck's character are in love. Then Afleck discovers the lesbian had lots of straight sex including and a threesome in high school. Ben Affleck is so pathetically insecure about this that he insists he needs them to have a threesome together (with his male closet case roommate that has been totally shitty to the lesbian) to get over his feelings of inadequacy. Lesbian justifiably dumps Affleck's ass for this manipulation.

The worst thing about the movie was how pathetic this 'need' of Affleck's character was. It seemed unrealistic to me, but apparently it was based upon the director of the film's real life insecurity when he was dating IRL the (straight) actress who played the lesbian's earlier active sex life.

39

@misanthrope, I don't think that's a hard and fast rule for everyone, but it would be a pretty good way to respect your partner if you were in the position that your partner was wishing he/she could have had those experiences too. I don't think it would bother most of us to not bring things like that up if we realized it could seem to be rubbing it in a current partner's face. If this troubles you, then obviously that arrangement wouldn't work for you, but it seems like just general respect for most people. I do not mind not talking about my sexual encounters with others b/c my husband doesn't want to hear about them (I come here instead and dish with the girls). This is just respect- not what I am / am not allowed to do. I like to hear about his experiences and even ask for details. Again, this is just what works for us. For the LW, it does not work for him to hear about the things he cannot have. If it would bother the LW's gf to keep them to herself even though she knows the LW wishes he could do those things, then she might want to reflect on why she keeps telling him about it. It seems natural to do so if she doesn't know it's bothering him, but once she does, I'd assume she'd lose the desire to tell him about it.

BDF you might be right, but if she's bi, then that removes the whole plot line about how she turned to women because of the trauma and also Affleck's being upset that she has sex with men, etc. But maybe that was part of it and I couldn't see it.

Curious, I really don't think it's the same situation for the LW but I seem to be going easier on him than a lot of people. To me, it seems like the LW has realized he wants to have some kinkiness in his life. Not that he needs to prove himself or get over his insecurities about this woman. The thing about Chasing Amy that bothered me so much when I saw it was that the Affleck character is troubled by the girl's past because he discovers she has been with men. He enjoys being the one that conquered the lesbian- she just needed a good man. Then he finds out that this isn't true, actually she's been with other men. Not only that, but she's actually been kinky with other men. And he can't handle that because now he has to compare himself with all those other men, and his response is to slut shame her. While this is exactly what lots of guys do in real life, the key here is that he's troubled by the fact that he's not her only man. It could've been that he thought she was virgin and then found out she wasn't just as easily as he thought she was a lesbian. This doesn't seem to be part of the LW's problem. The LW sounds like he'd generally like to have some kinky experiences. Finds out his GF has had them and it makes him start to think about the possibilities that he missed. He's a lot older so I'm sure some of it is about a mid-life crisis- he's dating someone younger and regretting what he didn't do in his own youth. If he blames or shames the GF for this, that is shitty. But it's perfectly normal to get to a certain age and realize it's now or never if you are going to kinky things. The catalyst for this might be the girlfriends' stories, but that's a normal thing to feel, and I don't think it's from the same insecurity or motivations as the Affleck character. Also the "moral" of the story was that he should get over it and enjoy what he has in the moment- not lose her because he obsesses over what he can't have. I think that's a shitty false dichotomy in the first place and I disagree with the conclusion and think it leads to future resentments and regrets.

Then on top of this, I think the movie is flawed, as I said- it's an insecure man's version of what a lesbian is- it doesn't work. Perhaps BDF is right about that though and the girl is bi all along, and I just misremember. Anyway, that's secondary to the point about whehter or not the LW would benefit from it.

40

Too late now, but it's almost never a good idea to tell your current partner that much about your sexual past. Even the smallest indiscretion will make your bf start imagining that your past is a lot wilder than it actually was. Anything at all that you tell him will somehow be interpreted as clown orgies and gangbangs....in his mind he now has evidence of the type of woman you are. I had a bf who asked me why it didn't work out with the last guy I dated- I told him that the former bf kept asking me for group sex and I wasn't up for it. That wasn't even the entire reason for that breakup, but when the current bf put me on the spot I was awkwardly fumbling for a short answer to give him so he wouldn't ask more. Did my boyfriend freak out over sex I never even had? Yes. Yes, he did. As Dan says, it's a relationship not a deposition. If you tell a man about your past it's not going to turn out well. He will probably feel short-changed that some other guy got all the gangbangs (and then start pressuring you) or he will invent a much crazier past than you actually had.

41

I created a burner account to post this: I feel in a similar situation to the LW.

In my case - so my natural inclination is to defend the letter writer - the GF tells me of her past sexual adventures. In her OKCupid profile when we met she answered that she likes to have sex everyday. So, we're together now for a coupla years and sex every week or every other week. No oral. No making out. No weeknight, morning, or middle-of-the-night sex. I don't need a "sex vending machine" or crazy sex adventures. I just want to feel like she's more into me. I would prefer sex a couple times a week, and a little more flavor. At least oral from her from time to time. The relationship is excellent in pretty much every other way. But it seems like she gave up on "fun" sex in order to have a stable relationship. Well, I would like both.

Other details, I don't have the slightest feeling that she would cheat on me. Every time we have sex I give her oral and she always comes first. It just makes me feel unattractive sexually that she won't interact with me a little more and/or a little more passionately. I asked her directly and often what can I do to make it better for her but she says everything is perfect. I say it's not perfect for me. It just doesn't line up in my head, and leaves me feeling rejected.

42

@terry, you and the LW both have legitimate concerns. In both cases, it has nothing to do with what your GF did in the past. That's the problem here. If you aren't satisfied with your current sex life, you are good and well to discuss it with her, and figure out what you want to do about it, etc. You are not correct to link this to resentment over what she said she wanted two years ago- back before the relationship was a thing, back before it was long term, etc- nor resentment over what she did with other people in a different phase of her life. Guys have to stop doing this- comparing their current situation with what they expected or what they suspect happened previously in another situation, etc. That doesn't mean that your current complaints & feelings aren't valid- they are and you should address them. But blaming her for not being how she said she thought she would be or how she was with someone else- that's the wrong way to go.

43

@41

Maybe you are using the wrong words? Instead of asking, "How can I make this better so you want to do it more?" you can say, "I want more of this are you willing to go there?"

And if she says yes, fantastic, if she says no..then you have a hard choice to make.

No need to bring up what she said last year, last week, or even last night.

44

Misanthrope @35: I don't know how you got any of that from my post.

If you know that talking about [x] makes your partner feel bad, it's kind to not blather on about [x].

No one is obliged to do anything sexually that they don't want to do. One's reasons for not doing them may or may not be important. If you know your partner wants to do [x] and you used to do that with others but you don't want to with them, it is, again, kind to share with them your thinking and what has changed. This does not obligate you do to anything, but it will help them possibly not feel left out/hurt/shortchanged.

Kindness is not screwed up.

Terry @41: I'm sorry, that does sound like a bait-and-switch. What does she say when you say things aren't perfect for you? Have you challenged her on her OKCupid response? (From recollection, I think the question went something like "Once you're intimate, how often would you and your partner have sex?" Perhaps her answer was based on interpreting "once you're intimate" as "early in the relationship," rather than "through the course of a relationship.") It's pretty common to experience a spike in desire early on that drops off, but daily to once a week maximum is a big drop. Has she been in a relationship this long before? Do you live together? Has anything changed that might decrease her sex drive?
Instead of asking her how you can make it better for her, sounds like it's time to straight up tell her what SHE can do to make it better for you. Perhaps no oral for her until she reciprocates? Perhaps tell her that you're feeling rejected? Would you want an open relationship, and would you risk this one by bringing it up?
Good luck, twice a week is certainly not unreasonable so I hope you find a way to get what you want.

45

@35/TheMisanthrope: I see nothing wrong with asking a partner not to speak at length about their sexual history, in particular if they are waxing nostalgic about their kinky past that they've made clear is something that they have rejected doing in the future. That is just basic consideration, and it doesn't preclude them from discussing it with their friends. In my experience, about half my girlfriends have made clear they weren't interested in hearing about my past with other women.

@42/EmmaLiz: "But blaming her for not being how she said she thought she would be or how she was with someone else- that's the wrong way to go." While sex ebbs and flows, I'm skeptical that someone sexually experienced can think they want a lot of sex in a relationship, but only is interested in sex twice monthly. In any event, @terry wants more sex and more reciprocation, and he should probably exit this relationship, because their seems to be a significant mismatch.

@Chasing Amy: My recollection is that Ben Afleck's character was fixated on the fact that his girlfriend had a threesome. In particular, the fact that she had engaged in vaginal sex while giving a blow job. In that respect, I think the movie is a good cautionary tail for LW, get obsessed by your partner's past, and you will drive them away.

46

@41

Your situation sounds worse than the LW's to me. He just sounds like a whiny baby to me. Your Charlie Brown sounds like it got Lucy'd a bit. Gotta deal head on with the problem... 'I am not happy with our sex life. I would like more of the following.... Can we come to some new understanding that addresses these issues I am having?'

If yes... congratulations!! If no, well... you have the information you need to decide whether you should stay in the relationship.

47

@39 @44 Y’all are too deferential about some weird things. If my past sex life made my partner feel bad to the point that I couldn’t talk about it in casual conversation, that’s emotional manipulation. The mere mention of previous adventures should not be manipulated into being an emotional burden on my partner. As an adult, the topic of sex will naturally come up in conversation and I don’t want to negotiate minefields or say “Brad isn’t comfortable when I talk about my previous sex life.” The first is not kind to me. The second is not kind to him.

LW is an overly jealous jerk.

48

'Casually referencing her past in conversations' is not talking about her past constantly.
What is not visible here with any of the words chosen by the LW, is love. He has no love for this woman and expecting a vending machine as a poster above noted, is not how modern women see themselves. Not much love shown and so much attitude.
His partner has to erase any mention of her life where sex was involved? Or just kinky sex. I mean this guy needs to give her the right script so he's never reminded that some experiences didn't happen for him, in his youth.

49

Gee misanthrope, you and I are on the same page with this one.

50

@46 Agreed. It isn’t manipulation to say “I need more sex out of this relationship.” It is manipulation to say “don’t talk about your past sex life because I’m not happy with the level of sex we are having.”

51

@40 It depends on the Bf/Gf involved. My base assumption is that my gf has had a less wild life than I have. And so far this has been a correct assumption. My basis for a wild life is pretty high I will admit since my past includes a porn star that did over 300 professional scenes (some of which are illegal in most states) and a gf that used to work at a brothel in Nevada. Am I kinky? Oh yes, beyond most people's belief. But I would never assume that a lady would enjoy doing some of those things even if she had done them before. The next questions by me after a revelation is whether she enjoyed them at the time and would she want to do them again. If the answers are yes then we can discuss it. If the second is no then there is no need for me to talk to her about them unless she wants information about what might have helped her enjoy them more. I'm certainly not going to judge her or be jealous due to her past.

Oh and about the two ladies mentioned: My past outdid the prostitute (except in numbers) and was only outdone by the porn star since I would never do anything sexual with an animal. But I did manage to teach even her some new things due to my having done kinkier people stuff than she had at that time.

I have learned tho to not talk about my sexual past with ladies since some of them tend to think that just because I have done something I am going to be wanting to do it some more. Most of what I have done I enjoyed doing at the time but isn't something I really want to do again. Altho if a lady I am with wants for us to do them I wouldn't object but it isn't something for me to bring up. Basically an orgy can be fun at the time while also being rather boring when you look back at it. And I certainly don't think either my penis or my jaw is up to pleasing two ladies in one night ( if I am ever in a FMF 3-way again the ladies better really like each other). Would I do them if the lady I was with wanted? Well yes. Would I suggest that we do them? Not a chance.

But then again it just might be that I don't mention things to a lady because I don't like being judged by MY past even if I am not judging hers. And a lot of ladies do judge a guy by his past without knowing details. As in, he has done a 3-way so will want me to do them. The fact that I was not the one to initiate a 3-way (both ffm and mfm) doesn't count. I was involved and had fun so obviously I want more. The fact that I don't care if I ever do them again doesn't matter. I will admit that if a lady enjoys the really kinky stuff I've done she is unlikely to even blink if I were to mention that. More likely she would start going thru a mental list of who she is willing to have in bed along with me for fun. But the rest of the ladies tend to freak out a little about it.

But yes most guys and gals do tend to be judgmental about a person's past sex life. I just happen to be a major exception to that.

52

I could be LW's GF (although I am not).

When I met my now H in my late 20s, I'd had a very adventurous run (yes, threesomes, swingings, etc) and I disclosed that to him. I also said I loved lots of sex.
I disclosed because I knew that a subset of men would not be able to handle my wild history - the threesomes, the swinging - particularly so because it was fifteen years ago. As my ex said, so kindly, to me: "no decent man would want you with that background." Wonder why he is my ex. I also wanted to explain why some of these things were likely off the table for me in the future.

I did not do it to rub his face in it. I don't see anything in this letter that shows LW's GF is rubbing LW's face in it, so not sure where that is coming from.

My now Hub did express some regret that he had not indulged in some of those experiences and they did not appear to be on the menu. They weren't, at that time, for many reasons. Firstly, I learned some are just not for me. Sorry, no anal. Secondly, those "adventures" led to a lot of chaos in my life. I was not a healthy person. I was not married to a healthy person. For me, it was dangerous. Finally, I was looking to settle down and procreate, which seemed very incompatible with the lifestyle.

And shockingly, despite being a raging horm-monster in my twenties (we did boink almost every night), after motherhood, things dropped off a cliff. They are rebounding and I feel that we (Hub and I) are in a much better place for some experimentation. The kids are older, we can leave them with relatives. I do want him to have the pleasure of a three-way with another woman, and have been considering a few ways to do it. But I won't be a swinger again. Sorry.

I don't consider LW a whiny little brat. I mean, I am a whiny little brat in my head. Part of being grown-up is not expressing the whiny little brat. So as long as he isn't guilting or sulking or punishing his gf, his tone doesn't bother me. But I will say this to you LW if you read:

That you chose not to indulge in certain actions when you were younger is not your GF's fault. Look in the mirror. That was you.
That your GF once did stuff like that does not mean she wants to do so now. Despite some grumping above over "bait and switch," sex lives over the years do not remain the same. It silly to expect things to never change. I will point out that apparently YOU weren't interested in the freaky-deaky and now you are. So you TOO have changed. Should your GF complain about that?

But if you are unhappy over today, please use your words and ask about doing some more exotic stuff. Take baby-steps and don't ever pout. All of us is dealt a hand. Many men may never enjoy the pleasures of a threesome. Who's fault is that? No one's.

As to the rest of the nonsense over her not being sexually attracted to him or using him as a meal ticket, hogwash. There is nothing there for that. I can tell you, dollars to donuts to diamond rings, I love my current Husband and find him sexy, a million times more than my ex. Yet, I did threesomes with my ex.

Last bit to 6. Your brother made a deal. He decided to marry the woman he did, getting the sex he did. Stop infantizing him. He isn't a child. He had agency. He could have made a different decision. That's on him.

53

I just wanted to log in again to say thanks for all your replies. I appreciate the comments, and have been given some good stuff to think about. To answer some questions, it's a few years long relationship, living together, longest for both, kid involved (from previous relationship but still an issue), and generally pretty good, supportive, and fun.

So, I'm trying to have difficult conversations and not have to make the difficult decisions yet. But I do struggle with balancing not wanting to make unfair, entitled, or manipulative demands/requests with feeling something I want out of the relationship is missing. Because I do feel like a jerk when I bring up that I'd like to improve our sex life. And I don't feel she has to change. I don't maybe even want her to change. I want to find what we both like. It just seems like she's already says she likes it, but then is not willing to engage with me in the same way. It's weird.

Anyway, I don't think I need to talk about my situation anymore, but I did want to clarify, the hearing of the past encounters just makes me think, "What am I doing wrong?" or "What's wrong with me?" that you say you enjoyed that stuff but don't want to do it with me. It also maybe gives me (false?) hope that things could change for the better. Because maybe if she hadn't told me about her past (and what she was looking for in a relationship), and if the possibility wasn't there, maybe I wouldn't be so bothered.

But like I said, I don't think I'm going to reply again, I really do appreciate the comments. I have much to think about myself, and this relationship.

54

Let's sat LW is 65 and his girlfriend is 45. A couple possibilities that have not been discussed could be LW's girlfriend may no longer feel the same confidence and lack of self-consciousness for group play, or LW's girlfriend may not think it would be possible to find threesome or swinging partners who would be mutually attracted/attractive to both her and LW. There may be a significant difference in sexual attractiveness between them that could complicate finding mutually satisfying play partners.

55

@52: DarkHorseRising, that is the best response that the lw could have hoped to get. If Dan doesn't use it in the Reader Advice Roundup this week, he's an idiot.

56

@55 I was about to tell you to be nice, and then I remembered that this is the Internet.

57

Thanks nocute. I felt like my life was pretty pertinent to his experience. It has also been on my mind on and off these last few years now that the kids are older. I’ve considered a trip to Carson City. Maybe ski trip to Tahoe and then across the mountains.

58

There are two sides to this. Both LW and his gf are showing serious gaps in their relationship. LW is sad that his sex life is not as interesting as hers. She misses her sex life enough that shes mentioned it in a positive light to LW, implying she misses it and LW probably isnt satisfying her.

On one hand, LW needs to get a grip on his jealousy. Yes, its understandable that you never had those amazing sexual adventures and you feel bad about it later in life. Some guys never go to Paris. Some guys never own a motorcycle. Others never get a 3way. But if you feel "left out" you need to communicate thats what you want to try, and if she isnt down for it, the ball is in your court whether to call it off or accept that the best youll get is whatever unsatisfactory sex youre getting.

As for her, by mentioning her sexual escapades in the past she is clearly showing that she does not see you as a valid sexual partner. I wont go as far as others saying she probably sees you as a security blanket (missionary lights off and a handjob once a month), but I will say two things: 1- She enjoyed her previous sex life enough to bring it up to you without saying how much of a downgrade sex with you is and 2- She sees you as a security blanket, not really there for sex, but there for something else. Its stupid to say what, but whatever it is, it is not making you happy. You even named yourself LOSER.

People saying you should be happy dating a woman 20 years younger than you probably don't date anyone at all. YOu need to date someone that makes you happy. Make sure you actually mesh with this woman, and you arent dating her out of "gratitude for dating an older man". Whatever you do don't marry her.

59

@52,

". I don't see anything in this letter that shows LW's GF is rubbing LW's face in it, so not sure where that is coming from."

A lot to unpack here. If it has come up enough for them to have multiple conversations about it, it very much might be rubbing it in his face.

It sounds to me like its a way of diminishing him by saying "Look I used to have great amazing sex that most men, including you it sounds like, would love...but now I'm ready to settle down for what I consider 'comfy' sex and you can take it or leave it." Because shes half his age, it sounds like he might be taking it and counting himself lucky. Kind of like a horny teenager, just happy with anything they can get. While that might sound ok now, eventually it will cause problems. As soon as being able to say you've got a 20 something year old SO isn't enough of a trade off for sexual satisfaction, that relationship is going to hit potholes. Hopefully they arent married by the time that happens, but even if not it will probably end in hurt feelings/cheating/resentment.

"Finally, I was looking to settle down and procreate, which seemed very incompatible with the lifestyle."

You dont see the fact that you consider sex as a utility for "procreation" and "settling down" might be a problem for your partner? I don't mean your partner specifically, hopefully you've both been honest with each other about what you would like out of sex. By honest I don't mean you say what you are willing to accept and he accepts it begrudgingly, because if he actually isn't happy with your sex life, it will emerge soon and lead to problems. No matter what you tell yourself about how happy you both are.

60

@51 Thank you- your post made me feel better. Much wilder than me- not judging though. But even so, I have my reasons for wanting to be discreet about my past. I wasn't even all that wild during my time as a party girl. A few joints and some ecstasy once or twice. An incomplete threesome and I made out with a few girlfriends at clubs. That's all I did! Most of the time I was the designated driver while everyone around me was trashed. However, it seems like if I talk about it I'm only going to get a negative reaction and it will be taken completely the wrong way. Either the guy will make it mean that I'm kinky, so then he's going to try to see how much crazy sex he can get out of me. Or if he thinks I was too wild, he will feel resentful that I had more adventures than he did.

For example, after hearing I was bi-curious, one guy tried to trick me into a "surprise" threesome with a lesbian couple he found at the bar. He invited them home with us and when I found out the reason, I slept on the couch after refusing to go into the bedroom with them. At the time I was a young, artsy, free spirit and genuinely bi-curious, but being ambushed like that was like cold water all over my fantasy.

Then, more recently, I had a boyfriend who thought I was checking out other men at the restaurant (I was actually looking at them and thinking about how much these guys looked like the Korean dictator Kim Jong Un, but kept my mouth shut b/c I didn't want to sound racist). He also accused me of picking a restaurant where I take all my dates, but in reality it was a spot where I had dinner with my nerdy female bff. Had never been on a date in that particular place.

So, yes absolutely, it depends on the person, because both of those guys had extreme reactions to my sexuality. Saying I'm "bi-curious" shouldn't be taken as a green light for a guy to try to trick me into an unwanted sexual situation. And yet, that's what happened. And no man should be so insecure that he thinks I'm trying to hookup with Kim Jong Un lookalikes and taking him to places where I take all the random men I've been banging behind his back (I was faithful to him the entire time we dated).

61

@52 to edit the last sentence in the previous paragraph (started writing two different things and pressed submit before editing...both lead to the same conclusion): No one wants to date the "not fun" version of someone else. Settling down tends to be another way of saying "being boring/uninteresting", even if it is just in the field of sex.

You can say you don't think your husband feels this way. He might say it, feeling that saying other wise would push you away. But I doubt this is actually the case. Also, it isn't easy telling your partner "I don't like/am bored with our sex life". Yes, it needs to be said, but many people (as this blog can testify) would rather just be unhappy and go along with it, even in the best of marriages.

62

@58. Holy speculation Batman. You see those words you use? Might? That means you have no idea. LW didn’t say it. He also didn’t say his SO was rubbing it in. That tells me more about your issues than LW or his SO.

And this: “Look I used to have amazing sex, including you sound like would love ... but I am ready to settle down to what I consider comfy sex so you can take it or leave it...” There is so much off in this statement....

1) no where did GF say that. You made that up out of whole cloth to paint the GF in a bad light.

2) No where did LW’s GF say it was “amazing sex.”

3) Yes, yes, every man wants a threesome. Nothing negative ever happens after swinging. It’s all rainbows and puppies. I never saw screaming fights of jealousy when swinging (sarcasm off). There maybe really good reasons she doesn’t want to go down that road. Watch Chasing Amy.

4) guess what, the gf gets to decide what kind of sex she wants. And if it isn’t what LW wants, then yes it IS take it or leave it. Per example, I did anal in the past. I won’t do it again. I am not contactually obliged to do anal with everyone I have relations with. Sorry. I am free; I am sentient; and I own my body even in marriage. LW isn’t locked up by 20 year younger tail. He can go find someone else. Your statement is BREATHTAKING in its assumption of entitlement to another human being’s body.

And this: “you don’t see the fact that you consider sex a utility for procreation and settling down might be a problem for your partner.” Really? And how do you have babies? I had them by f**king my husband once a day and twice on Sunday. Think it would have been a good idea to have a couple other men involved or a woman or two? What about all those two am feedings. Think a Saturday at the smoke filled swingers club with leaking boobs while exhausted is a recipe for martial and sexual bliss? I doubt you’ve had an open relationship or swung in a serious relationship because you are so blithely unaware of the complications. But I will be sure to tell my husband that I only consider sex for procreation. Considering I’ve been neutered for seven years, he’ ll be surprised that all those times I’ve shoved my hand down his pants and asked for a ride it was for babymaking.

Men (including my husband and LW) are adults and free agents. I refuse to infantile them. My husband knew my wild past and ALSO knew it was behind me and that I wanted to settle down. He knew because we discussed, not once but several times. Strangely, being a grown-up, he didn’t feel like I was rubbing it in. He was free to walk from the deal if he didn’t like it. LW knows the score. If he doesn’t want to give up younger pootang to find another woman who will get kink, that is HIS decision. If my husband wanted to f..k a stripper well he should have done it (he did actually).

It’s simple: LWs are free to ask for more sex, kinker sex, or all the threesomes their heart desires. But they do not have a RIGHT to it. They do not own their GF’s body; they do not have a right to threesomes or anal or swinging because their GF did it with the pool boy in the past. The only RIGHT they have is to walk away because women AREN’T their personal blow up dolls.*

  • of course loving my husband means that I want to make him happy. But he doesn’t demand it (unless he’s pulling my hair). A gift is given voluntarily. This is why I told LW to ask. But there is a difference between asking and thinking one has a right to it.
63

@61. Wow. So glad you know how sad my husband is for marrying the not fun version of me. I mean, how could i have any experience in knowing what men might or might not want or how relationships work or (gasp) how sex might be important for men. Its not like I’m 42, have broken a few hearts, on my second (and much better) marriage, sucked quite a few dicks, kissed a few strippers, had a few threesomes, and was in the swinging lifestyle. But i need a person who doesnt know me telling me my husband is so disappointed that I became unfun, but married me anyway. If he didnt want to date the “nonfun” version of me, then he probably should have dumped me.

Do you realize how idiotic you sound 61?

Here is the deal. Despite giving up the threesomes and the trains - despite knowing that I wanted a calm harbor to raise babies in - my husband thought i was fun enough to marry. I don’t give a flying f—k about what some internet commentator thinks; I sleep next to the man everyday. He wanted to settle down and have kids too.

For LW, If he doesn’t like it? Discuss with his GF. If she says no, Lw can dump her. But she is neither “wrong” nor “bad” for choosing a vanilla life. That is her right.

64

@62
". You see those words you use? Might? That means you have no idea."

Does he need to say "Shes rubbing it in" in order for it to be the case? The guy named himself LOSER and stated he was not happy with his sex life. If you base their sexual health purely on what you read of his description of her, and then not read into anything hes saying, sure. They have it great. Me, I see a guy who says he wished he had better "fun" sex and who names himself "loser" as not being happy about it. And "it" wouldnt have come up on its own. No one extrapolates how exotic and crazy (Ie fun) their previous sex life was without it being a judgement call on their current relationship. No more than someone brings up how great "their home town" was without it being a judgement on where they live now. [Yes, I know there are lots of exceptions, but this is not that case. The man named himself LOSER. he is not happy]

"guess what, the gf gets to decide what kind of sex she wants. And if it isn’t what LW wants, then yes it IS take it or leave it."

Thats LITERALLY what I said. I said, he needs to voice his lack of satisfaction and if she isnt into it, its HIS duty to call it off. Go ahead and go back and read my comment again.

"Really? And how do you have babies? I had them by f**king my husband once a day and twice on Sunday. Think it would have been a good idea to have a couple other men involved or a woman or two?"

1- Who are you to judge other peoples familial choices? You going to tell me a mommy and a daddy are superior parents than a mommy and a mommy or a daddy and a daddy next? Climb down from that horse.

2-My point was, her idea of "settling down" is relegating her partner to a utilitarian function. Hes there to help her make and raise babies and the basic miminal of sex will do that, regardless of whether he is happy about it. In the LW case, he is not. In the person I was commenting to's case, maybe he is. I dont know. What I do know is no one, male or female, straight or gay or other, wants to "settle" for the "not fun" version of a partner. That counts for sex as much as it counts for personality. Married couples, IMO, tend to deny the hell out of this, but at the end of the day truth eventually hits. Divorce/unpermissioned infidelity/resentment and unhappiness.

There is a reason why most married and long term couples do not work out. That reason is lack of honesty with each other from the beginning (on money, sex, or overall happiness).

"It’s simple: LWs are free to ask for more sex, kinker sex, or all the threesomes their heart desires. But they do not have a RIGHT to it."

When in the ever loving fuck did I say or imply this? He isnt entitled to sex. I said that in my very first paragraph.

He is not entitled to a sexual lifestyle that she or any partner is not comfortable with. AT the same time, if SHE is not satisfying HIS needs, HE has every right (and absolutely should) call it off. If he doesn't, his unhappiness is his fault. I was pretty sure I made that clear in 3 posts, but maybe I did not and for that I apologize.

65

@araucania

Dark Horse can/did answer for herself here, but I want to point out that you are deliberately misunderstanding things. Plenty of us enjoyed doing all sorts of things in our youth and then moved on b/c priorities changed and therefore allocation of energy / personal interests change as well. I used to go constantly to shows. I did a lot of psychedelics. Later I was very focused on career and research. More recently I've been busy with caregiving. At various stages, I have more spare time than others which means I've prioritized sex more in some cases than others just like I've prioritized partying more than others. When I have spare moments now- time that could be spent away from my home and my current responsibilities- I don't want to spend it in music halls, doing drugs, or fucking strangers. That's not to say that I didn't enjoy those things plenty in the past. I'm just in a different phase of my life, and now I want to spend my spare time hanging out with friends or going for a hike. If I talk about my sexual experiences in the past and my sexual desires now, does that mean I'm misrepresenting? If I point out accurately that my prioritization (moving sex down a few notches) has changed because so much of my time now is required for me to be at home in a caregiving capacity, does that mean I'm considering sex a utility? This is nonsense for me, just it's nonsense for anyone. Life comes at you fast and you reorient as you go. BTW the short version of everything I just said is "grow up". Kinky sex, like all pleasures, will ebb and flow in life, and like all hobbies, will move up and down in a person's priority list dependent on personal proclivities and life circumstances.

66

BTW I think it's rather a normal feature of a certain age in life for many of us to have to set things on the back burner while there are children at home (or elders) and I really think Americans need to learn to combine their openness to sexual exploration (comparative to traditional cultures) with a reorientation of their responsibilities as parents or eldercare-givers (you can't always have it all). I find that people have extremely naive ideas of what it requires and dismiss responsibility as "settling down" as if this is a negative and PERMANENT thing rather than the phase it is. We've been in that situation for a few years now, after a much more open youth, and now that we are seeing the light at the end of the tunnel (so to speak as caregiving and at-home responsibilities have their own joys if you can accept the burdens), I'm looking forward to a later middle age with renewed sexual exploration. It's going to look different, but now that we are near the end of this phase, we do talk about what that is going to look like. Shame to see this dismissed as "settling down" and "utility" and all sorts of other complaints- sounds like an adolescent sneering at parents, having never had to figure out how to balance adult responsibilities with personal desires & relationships and then come out the other side relatively sane and healthy.

In that sense, I don't see what DH said that would not be applicable to a poly relationship raising children and as I've tried to point out, the reason most married couples don't make it IMO is because they have ridiculously stupid expectations of what it means to be responsible to people other than themselves combined with a culture that considers "settling down" into temporary suspension of your own desires for a likewise temporary diversion of energy/priorities into something else is negative or unfair.

Also I don't mean to get on my poly bias again because I'm sure plenty of thoughtful poly families and relationships exist (probably proportionately as many as coupled), the idea that this is some default solution is a bunch of naive bullshit. There is nothing inherent to having additional partners that makes a relationship more functional or kinky- especially once you involve kids- and those of you who think of this as an alternative to the constraints and boredoms that ordinarily come with "settling down" really ought to go visit some communities where poly is the norm to be disabused of this notion. It's not the number of sex partners that makes the difference but rather the attitudes and understandings of those partners.

67

Misanthrope @47/Lava @48: What we don't know is how often these references are coming up in conversation. And HOW they're coming up in conversation. It is, in fact, rude to rub someone's face in something that you'll never give them. Is she rubbing his face in it, is HE leading the conversation to these experiences, or are things as occasional/innocuous as you two think? No way of knowing. I say consideration, you say manipulation, that's a big difference between a tomato and a tomahto. I personally would err on the side of compassion towards someone I supposedly loved, but YMMV.

Romial @51: The difference between you and LW is that you did have a wild past; LW didn't. So if you have a partner whose past was even wilder than yours, it doesn't contain anything that you wish you had done but never got the opportunity. Apple and orange. (But thank you for not being a slut shaming hypocrite! Indeed, more men -- more people -- with your attitude would make life better.)

DarkHorse @52: Good to see you back, and gold star comment!

FutureCat @54: I did reference that possibility @32: "If ... she did these things under pressure from exes, that's a different situation than she just feels perhaps that she's too old to do them now." :)

Arucania @59: She's not half his age; she's "almost twenty years" younger. I find it difficult to believe anyone could amass a history of threesomes, sex parties, and swinging before their late twenties at the youngest. And there's no indication that she IS in her twenties; as many have said, they could be in their 40s and 60s respectively. You've formulated this idea that Ms LOSER is a barely legal nymphet which isn't supported by evidence.

Girliegams @60: Ugh, sounds like you've dated some jerks! Glad you're rid of them.

68

To #40: "Anything at all that you tell him will somehow be interpreted as clown orgies and gangbangs...:

LMGAO! I swear I've known a few people in my lifetime that think like that.

69

If I may copy and paste an excellent analogy from today's similar thread:
"Even if LW isn't jealousy prone, just out of courtesy and sensitivity he shouldn't be going into great detail about local GF, knowing that LW would like to be closer and spend more time. ... It's the same thing as how one wouldn't complain bitterly to their student debt buried, rent overburdened friend about how it sucks to have to cut back on some luxury activity when said friend can barely afford to treat themselves to a decent cup of coffee." Credit Beesting @21.

70

I am surprised by the privilege people have here (ok, I should not, but then). When my wife was in college she used to (1) be in class, (2) study, (3) work many jobs because she is from a poor family and she had to work to put herself through college. No parties. Then she got a job with 90 hours a week... I do come from a much more privileged background, so that is not the same for me. When we got together sometimes my wife asked me for stuff (sex, but not necessarily just that) that were, well, past the sell-by-date for our ages. But she never had the opportunity before. I do not really think I could have turned around saying 'you only have yourself to blame if you did not have as much fun as I did'. Even if she were not my wife I would still not say that. So in some cases I did stuff I used to but I though I would not anymore, and stuff that I was lukewarm about. Some stuff I was still not that into anymore, and we discussed etc. But some stuff was like new because I never did 'whatever' with my wife before. So experiences I though were off the menu, are, if not on the menu all the time, on the menu sometimes.

To go to the LW, I have not idea why he did not do 'whatever'. He might just be someone who torpedoes his own opportunities, or he might had plenty of good reasons. So it is hard to say whether he should or not feel hard done by. Also, while nobody has the obligation to do whatever for their partner, it is you friggin' partner, so if getting back in the saddle will make them happy, people have to breathe out and see what compromise can be reached. Compromise being the word here. We do in fact owe to our partners, starting from decency and compassion, and more than that. All parties need to play according to this rule, or someone is being used, but I never met people in functioning relationships who started from the 'I do not owe you shit' pulpit.

Someone wrote on the lines 'my partner not trying to reach out to me and make my sex life fulfilled makes me feel unloved'. As much as we need to communicate what we want, as much as we need to be compatible, if we are not worth the effort neither is the other person.

71

I think that quite a few guys can hyper-fixate on this sort of thing. He says that she 'casually mentions it in conversation', but how often does a conversation come up where the reasonable response is 'oh yeah, I participated in a gangbang once, no biggie'? I'm thinking that things have come up maybe two or three times and he's just running them over and over in his head and making much more of a big deal out of it than necessary.

But the letter isn't clear on whether or not she's even open to the possibilities of more adventurous sex with the LW. They've discussed frequency, and maybe predictability, but has he outright asked whether she'd be up for a visit to the local sex club to maybe check things out? If they have, and she has told him firmly that those days are behind her, then it's up to him to determine whether to stay, or to leave her and go seek out some shenanigans.

Or he could just go watch Chasing Amy, as many other people have suggested. Leaving out the whole 'lesbian falling in love with a dude' angle, it absolutely serves as an object lesson for the LW's situation.

72

Fan@67 .. a guy who writes 'dour mood' would surely write 'incessantly' in relation to how much his partner was mentioning her past.. if that were the case.
You can also show your love for someone by not getting jealous when they share their past life with you, experiences you haven't had shouldn't close down topics.

73

Letter writer, this thread is a little hard on you,
perhaps.

Maybe what we think you really mean is the might-as-well-be vanilla "I'm a dude who wants to have a FFM threesome with my girlfriend" and instead you're talking generally about amorphous "sexual escapades" and "indulgences," which can involve but really aren't the same thing as a threesome specifically. So what is it? Is it some specific form(s) of kinky, adventurous sex you want to try or is it specifically "I want a threesome with my girlfriend and another girl"?

If it's kinky sex that does not involve others, talk to your girlfriend about that. More people is maybe what is complicated/unwanted. Maybe she wants to be kind and not say outright "I'd rather have vanilla sex with you than teach you." If it's some just the two of you sex you want, talk to your girlfriend about what she has liked and what she now wants instead of just listening to stories and feeling nostalgia for what you've never tried. I suspect that only in Fifty Shades do people try super fun kinky things then abandon wanting all of every type of kinky sex*. Think and read about what it is you yourself want to try. Adventurous sex can be fun but it will probably also be work initially. You'll have to study, since you say you haven't tried, to learn to top/bottom; tie someone up; give/receive x or y; learn about a scene etc. Think up (first alone) and practice/act out scenarios (later, together) until it feels natural and you know what you're doing. If you're inexperienced, don't think it will just come naturally if you have no idea what you're up to. If your girlfriend wants to do some of these things too and sees you making a real effort, that's adorable. It's sexy and romantic if done right. It shows you care. And it gives her less to surmount to try with you what was fun with others. Doing the just the two of you kinky things, mixed in with your vanilla, could bring your couple that kinky excitement and adventure you say you want, without involving others.

There's nothing wrong with being inexperienced. It's just where you are now. Maybe you had a life of monogamy with partners who were great but not into whatever you want to call it (please don't call it "indulgences" and maybe think hard on "escapades" too). You know you're inexperienced and your partner knows it too. Kink with people who don't know what they're doing is work for the more experienced partner. So do what you can get yourself somewhat up to speed. Then maybe she will want to embark on kinky adventures with you.

But if what you mean is that you're a vanilla guy who wants a threesome (how rare), then just come out with it. If you want sex with her and others too, you can ask for that specifically and she can decide if she wants to do that with you or not. Perhaps she'd be ok with/excited about you having that experience with people other than her. It's possible your girlfriend truly wants just vanilla sex, in which case, you may want to break up. But it's probably more likely that she would prefer vanilla sex with inexperienced you, than to have to teach you or come out and/think to ask you to get up to speed on your own. Your inexperience is a part of the equation.

Once you discuss and actually know where each other are coming from, you can both decide what you want :( leave/stay). I'm going to assume that you have a great, supportive, put the effort in, communicative relationship. If yes, you can jointly work toward better sex in all the ways and places there's overlap.

-

*so long as they're with a partner who knows what they're doing or who puts in the (first solo) effort to learn

74

An aside: I get it, the culture's fucked. But it's a little disempowering to assume that she did all she did in the past to please partners (barf to that suggestion). Maybe she was a strong badass who knew or was figuring out what she wanted and did exactly as she pleased

75

@61 I said, multiple times, that it might not be the case with your husband. I think it probably is, and either he isnt telling you or you are just comfortable enough with him not being satisfied that you've convinced yourself its the case, but sure I could be wrong.

I don't know a single woman or man, straight or gay or bi, who would respond positively to hearing their spouse say "Im with her/him because I was done having fun and wanted to settle down". But hey, you be you. I would just warn that be sure you are being honest with yourself. There is a reason most marriages end in divorce. Money is the most common, but sex is right after that.

@65 and @67

I'm not invested enough in this to have a comment war over it, so Ill just sum my reply to both of you by saying it sounds like you are more concerned with her sexual happiness than his. The man calls himself a LOSER and has stated he is not happy with his sexual life together, and your responses are "get over it!". Sure, thats rational, but do you think its fair to put all the impetus on him, even after hes talked with her about it? If she doesnt give a shit that he isnt happy with his sex life after being made aware of it, that kinda makes her the asshole, not him. If he stays with her after that, well you pick your own poisons. But that doesn't mean its ok to ignore your partners unhappiness. NOTE- I am not saying she 'owes' him whatever sex he wants. Please stop claiming I am.

What I am saying is, at the very least, both partners need to be empathetic to the others happiness. If she isnt willing or able to offer what he wants in bed, its her perogative of course. But at that point he needs to decide how bad he really wants it, and if its something he doesnt want to die without experiencing, maybe its they call it quits. And you can both tell me IDK what I am talking about, but I promise you as soon as the favorability impression of dating someone younger wears off, or his self confidence builds, he is going to start looking for someone that satisfies his needs. Or he will become a resentful partner and it will end anyway. And if you think I am pulling that prediction out of a magic hat, you havent been reading #savagelove for as long as I have (literally dozens of stories of that exact thing happening).

76

@75, where do you get off telling another poster how her husband might really be feeling? And by your comments, I assume you don't think any men want to settle down and have children.
A woman twenty years younger than a man, unless of course she's a drugged out mess, is not a situation to be taken in any man's stride. This guy if he's asked his gf to have these adventures with him and she's said no, why write to Dan. To bitch about it. Expose to the world what an entitled baby man he still is? Just tell her not to mention that stuff anymore as it makes him jealous. He couldn't use his mind to think that out for himself?

77

@20 Alyssa isn't a lesbian because she was bullied by men. When we meet her at the start of the movie she's identifying as a lesbian. The she falls in love with Holden [and the movies makes it clear they have a connection]. The problem is that Holden is a self-centered jackass who was attracted to Alyssa at least partially because of the whole idea of 'turning a lesbian'. When he learns she's not a 'gold star' lesbian and has a checkered sexual past with men he freaks out, tries to solve the problem by suggestion a three-way between him, Alyssa, and his best friend who found out about her past and shared it with Holden, and this destroys their relationship.

And there's a side plot about Holden's best friend Banky maybe having feelings for him but 'bullied into being a lesbian' was not a part of the movie.

78

@76
"where do you get off telling another poster how her husband might really be feeling?"

I get off telling another person how her husband might feel on a Strangelove comment section, where the point is commenters telling people how their SO's or themselves might feel. No different than half the people here telling LOSER how he 'should' feel.

Go ahead and tell me Im wrong. In a reply to a editorial that is literally filled with people telling Dan how they arent happy about X element of their significant others life...usually sex. Its hypocritical to ask me not to judge when the point is ye judge for yourselves.

A woman twenty years younger than a man, unless of course she's a drugged out mess, is not a situation to be taken in any man's stride."

Are you actually saying that because this woman has bestowed her youth upon this man that he should be grateful? Not for her personality. Not for his interaction with her. But because shes younger, thats auto points for him? What kind of meninist bs is that?

He ISNT HAPPY. Its not 'bitching'. If she was here with a DJ Khaled type argument saying her man doesnt go down on her, would you tell her to "quit bitching?". Hes a "baby man"? Would you say the same about a woman complaining on savage love unhappy her man only enjoys unenjoyable sex with no oral or foreplay? Honestly would you (and have you, in previous Savagelove entries on that very topic?)

Its about communication and happiness. HE is not happy with a mundane, second class sex life. We dont know if hes adequately communicated this to her, but you and a few others are saying "fucking deal with it...you met her when shes into shitty unsatisfactory sex so deal with it and be happy she wants to date your old ass".

Thats pretty fucked up if you could look at it objectively.

79

^^^

And I would like to add, saying "I settled down in regard to enjoyable sex for someone like my significant other" is akin to saying "I stopped enjoying music so I could date my girlfriend/boyfriend in a shitty band who cant play bass or hold a tune". No matter how you try to sell it, its an insult.

And if you think straight or gay or bi men, women or in between people "default" to "boring" sex after a certain age, you are lying to yourself or being lied to. People go for the sex they enjoy that they can get. If you really think vanilla sex with your older husband is completly satisfying him, what happens when so many older men (or women in the pacific northwest) fuck younger women or men once their spouses get up there? Do you think they were "happy" with vanilla? Or was it just that at the time, vanilla was all they could get? And I will post at least 3 Savagelove responses when Dan himself said the same in the last 15 years if anyone thinks i'm pulling this out of my ass.

80

Dark Horse pulled you up on your interpretation, and I didn't notice she was asking anyone a question. She was sharing her story. @78.
I just bought a new book, keen to check it out. So I'll read the rest of your lecture, later.

81

He isn't happy because his mind is like that of a self centred child.
' Dan, Dan, my partner of four yrs drops in references to her youthful sex life, and gee Dan she won't give me some. I get all dour filled and stamp my feet real hard. That'll teach her.'
And yes, I do think a much younger person is bringing an element to the relationship, which is youth. Isn't it what many hetro men aim for? A younger, more youthful woman, not a peer.
There's potential for a power imbalance, which shows itself clearly in the language this writer uses. As I wrote above, there's little love coming thru here from this man for this woman.. as I read it.
And you know, he's talked with her already about the frequency of the sex, and how he wants more. And not so vanilla. And he wants threesomes and all that. Well bully for him.

82

@39 EmmaLiz
Yes, I agree the LW's situation has differences from Chasing Amy, I just agree with #39 SublimeAfterglow that "the movie is a good cautionary tail for LW, get obsessed by your partner's past, and you will drive them away".

83

@78-79.

1) Did I ASK your opinion (or anyone's opinion) about how my husband might feel? I didn't write Dan for advice. I wrote in the comment section to provide advice to LW.

2) It in no way shocks me that your speculations into my husband's "broken psyche" rest entirely on a reading of letters to Savage, rather than any personal experience you might have garnered negotiating threesomes, polyamory, or any other exotic sex play in the context of a long-term relationship. Get a hint - you are tone deaf. Nasty speculation to someone that her spouse, whom you do not know, is sad, disappointed, and ready to trade her in on a new model is just that, NASTY. It's akin to me saying that every one of your last lovers through you were a sh*tty lay.

And, to top it off, your reading of Savage's responses have been rather selective at that. Apparently, you missed:

a) Dan Savage's advice on "settling" which you consider a bad word. It isn't. He puts a more positive spin on it: he says you find the person who is the 0.70 of what you want, and round that up to the "one." That IS settling. It is also called "growing up," something you need to do. I dated a guy who was INSANE in bed. He was also childish and immature. I dumped him and "settled" for my husband. Even if my husband isn't Mike's perfect 10 in bed, he is a goddamn perfect 10 - far beyond Mike - in every other way. YOU don't get to decide how OTHERS choose to prioritize their needs. YOU don't get to decide whether others, like my husband, are happy or not with the deal they made, especially since YOU don't know him from Adam.

b) You also have ignored Dan Savage's advice concerning changes in sex over a long relationship, particularly when children come along. He has more times than I can count told the man (usually) to chill over losing some of the "fun" when his spouse is completely overwhelmed at the physical costs of working and raising small children. So YES, it is entirely reasonable for a significant CHANGE to happen on priorities, including sex, over a lifetime - See EmmaLiz @66. She has it cold. Which leads me to....

c) you also missed all the letters to Savage about threesomes/polys/swinging blowing up spectacularly. "Oh this is amazing sex my GF had and she won't share," when neither you nor LW know whether it is amazing sex or not. Of course, straight monogamous couples blow up spectacularly, but Savage has said a dozen times here that managing a poly relationship or an open relationship often requires more tact, more maturity, and better communication skills that a straight monogamous relationship. Why? Because you are negotiating multiple people's feelings and the potent accelerant of jealousy. Many men have deeply regretted watching their gfs/wifes do another man. Many a third has felt shoved out and ignored during a threesome. Many a fight has happened between swinging couples, especially where not all four personalities mesh. It isn't, as you and the LW keep insisting, de facto "amazing sex." It can be, but not always. Often it is the reverse. My first swinging experience was miserable. My first, second,... etc. experience with ANAL was miserable. If you think there is no downside to exotic sex, you haven't been reading Savage Love. And as to whether I am judgmental? I'm not the one saying a poly-couple can't raise a kid. I am the one who said I and my husband decided we could not have the chaos of multiple partners and raise a kid. You know what? We were right .

I mean, after all, if it was so "fun," why do you suppose I decided to become so "unfun." Think I rolled over one morning and said, "yeah I used to have mind-blowing sex, but no more! I'm gonna make my husband suffer!" Maybe, just maybe, it wasn't as FUN as you and LW think, either for me or for LOSER's gf. Maybe, just maybe, my husband agrees with me that that type of life is not compatible with the life we both want now.

3) No where did I say that LW has to stay with the GF if the adventures are that important. No where did I prioritize her desires over his. If you look, I reaffirmed Savage's advice that LW should listen to GF's explanation for her current choices, adding my own experience to underscore why a woman with a past adventurous sex life might not want to go there again. I told LOSER: "But if you are unhappy over today, please use your words and ask about doing some more exotic stuff."

4) As for you, you made these statements:

"It sounds to me like its a way of diminishing him by saying 'Look I used to have great amazing sex that most men, including you it sounds like, would love...but now I'm ready to settle down for what I consider 'comfy' sex and you can take it or leave it.'"
This is telling GF that she isn't allowed to decide she wants "comfy sex," because she had "amazing sex" (according to you) in the past. Never mind the fact you manufactured that statement out of your head.

"You dont see the fact that you consider sex as a utility for "procreation" and "settling down" might be a problem for your partner?"

Really, did my partner say sex was a problem? Oh wait, I don't know what is going in my husband's head, despite eleven years or marriage, YOU know better. YOU know that I am now "not fun" for my husband, because I won't swing or have threesomes, and that I am "boring and uninteresting" to him:

"No one wants to date the "not fun" version of someone else. Settling down tends to be another way of saying "being boring/uninteresting", even if it is just in the field of sex. You can say you don't think your husband feels this way. He might say it, feeling that saying other wise would push you away. But I doubt this is actually the case."

Wow, how could that be offensive? Since you like putting words in people's mouths: "sorry honey, you won't let your husband f*k another woman in bed with you, so he thinks you are boring and uninteresting."

This is what really pisses me off Arauc. You got all your super special knowledge by reading savage love. Well so have I for about ten years, and listening to Savage Love too. I ALSO got my super special knowledge by actually living the swinging lifestyle, having threesomes, pulling trains, watching my SO f* other women, being tied up in a dungeon and spanked a few times, doing finger cuffs (nod to Chasing Amy), experimenting with several girlfriends (sigh), and talking to people who also engage in those experiences. I was the member of a community. You better believe I have real world experience about what is entailed in your "amazing sex" life. I lived it.

I also know what is in my husband's head and the decisions we made as a couple when dating, when deciding to get married, and when building our life together, because I communicate with him.

But despite this, YOU think you know better. And rather than acknowledge that you are talking out of your rear, especially when it comes down to telling ME what MY husband may or may not think about me (boring in bed is not very likely), you double down that you really know what is going on. That is insulting and dismissive. Be sure to treat your partners that way, dismiss their knowledge, insult their intelligence, and tell them they don't really know what's going on in their pretty little heads. It's a sure winner.

84

By the way, I have to blow this myth up - at least that married couples don't last the long term.
First time marriages end in divorce around 30% of the time, down from a high of 40%:

https://psychcentral.com/lib/the-myth-of-the-high-rate-of-divorce/

https://www.refinery29.com/2017/01/137440/divorce-rate-in-america-statistics

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr049.pdf

The failure rate for second and third time marriages are higher.

Allow me to postscript by saying I do not consider marriage or M-F marriage to be the gold standard of relationships, etc. I am a firm believer that people need to choose the relationship model that works for them.

85

This man has every right to ask his gf for more sex and kinky sex , just as any person does in a relationship. It's his tone of entitlement that I've reacted to.

86

@80 Lavagirl

I understood what Darkhorse was saying. Darkhorse attempted to paint me as somekind of asshole redpiller because I said both partners should be honest about what they would like in sex. Her comment was essentially attacking LOSER for not being happy with lame sex, which he obviously isnt enjoying.

I've said 4 times that no one is owed sex, but BOTH partners have a mutual responsibility to be honest and open about what they want out of the bedroom. If one is not ok with the others wants, fine, but the other is not an asshole for either not being happy about it or moving on. Plain and simple.

@Emmaliz

I should have thanked you for not responding with knives out. Thank you. You didnt insult LOSER either. I understand that your particular situation may be one where 'vanilla' sex is what you and your partner are into. As I told Darkhorse, I would hope you are both being honest with what you want, rather than what you are willing to accept (very different things). Because as countless strangelove editorials and even more failed marriages can show, most couples arent.

@83 Darkhorse
:Deep sigh and groan:

"Did I ASK your opinion (or anyone's opinion) about how my husband might feel? I didn't write Dan for advice. I wrote in the comment section to provide advice to LW."

Hey guess what? This is a comment board. If you dont like getting other peoples opinions, you might want to stay off the internet. Thats the whole point of this comment section, and every comment section online.

"It in no way shocks me that your speculations into my husband's "broken psyche" rest entirely on a reading of letters to Savage, rather than any personal experience you might have garnered negotiating threesomes, polyamory, or any other exotic sex play in the context of a long-term relationship."

Broken Psyche? There you go again putting words (and whole arguments and claims) in my mouth. It sounds more like you are aware of some hidden truth or insecurity, and your painting it on me to fight against. Ease up there captain. I dont know you or your husband. But I do know that bullshit arguments of "settling down" in the bedroom are usually only one sided. If you offered a 3way or something kinky with your husband this very night, would he turn you down? Is your answer honest with yourself or what you choose to believe because it rationalizes your choice of preferring a vanilla life even if he wants something better? Again, dont bother saying thats never the case or its rare, because I cant even count how many #strangelove entries involve men and women in that exact situation (of not wanting vanilla but with partners who do).

"You also have ignored Dan Savage's advice concerning changes in sex over a long relationship, particularly when children come along."

You mean his stating that people unsatisfied in the bedroom will eventually leave that bedroom, or seek satisfaction elsewhere? Which is exactly what I was saying would happen with LOSER's relationship? Or exactly why I kept saying "Are you and your partner being honest with each other? Are you sure you havent told yourself X and he is thinking Y?" No. I didn't ignore that. I straight up said it.

" Oh wait, I don't know what is going in my husband's head, despite eleven years or marriage"

:45 seconds of dramatic eye rolling followed by a "umhumph":

"I mean, after all, if it was so "fun," why do you suppose I decided to become so "unfun." Think I rolled over one morning and said, "yeah I used to have mind-blowing sex, but no more! I'm gonna make my husband suffer!" Maybe, just maybe, it wasn't as FUN as you and LW think, either for me or for LOSER's gf. "

OK, honestly stepping back there. If it wasnt fun anymore, there isnt anything wrong with that (said that 3 times too). BUT does your significant other think it would still be fun? Thats my point Darkhorse. You are entirely set on sexual happiness of LOSER's gf, and yourself, but your opinion of the sexual happiness of your partner and LOSER, whom I presume is male(?) is "Who gives a shit, he should be happy with what he gets". And it is ENTIRELY your prerogative and right to hold that ideal. My only point is, eventually, that significant other is either going to become a severely unhappy person or find comfort elsewhere. Now tell me thats never been a recommendation in a #savagelove column with a straight face? (That wasnt a pun).

Again, my whole point is what YOU think is satisfactory sex may not be what your partner/husband/wife/bf/gf/sidepiece thinks. Vanilla, kinky, whatever. You're making the argument that your happiness or enjoy-ability or comfort in sex is paramount. I am saying both parties should be honest and try to reach something they are both happy with...or the unhappy side should leave. I honestly don't see what the problem with that is.

87

And triple down. Yup, Auc, you totally know better what my husband thinks. I bet you are a shitty lay with this type of lousy listening skills topped off with a vicious case of mansplaining (womansplaining?). I doubt you have ever been in a long term relationship, particularly one that involved negotiating more risqué experiences like threesomes. You are the type who’d tell the dominetrix she was doing it wrong because you read it once on the internet. If you don’t like people responding negatively when you call them unfun and boring, maybe you should learn the rules aren’t “different” on the internet.

If I proposed a threesome to my husband, btw, he’d say no. Hogwash? Really? Nah he doesn’t want to do a MFM. He doesn’t want to see me f!ck another man, even though I would enjoy it again. I’ve always liked the strange. Oh THAT wasn’t the threesome you were thinking of? You meant the FMF! Wait a minute... doesn’t that mean HE’S prioritizing HIS sexual needs! That bastard! I mean if I am not allowed to prioritize MY sexual needs, neither is he.

Or maybe, just maybe, Auc, your view of prioritizing sexual needs is hopelessly naive and stereotyping to boot. In your world, the woman is “always” vanilla and the guy “wild.” Nah. I’ve always wanted to peg a dude. Didn’t get to do it. Why? Because my husband has boundaries.

See this is what adults do. We talk about what we can live with and what we can’t. In marrying my husband, I forsook all other men. My ex-h, who has a cuckold fetish, didn’t make that requirement. But what adults do - and this goes for LOSER and you - is discuss it, decide if they can live with it, and move on. For my husband, I paid the price of admission. I have given up something as well. You think you’ve “proven” something by dragging out that tired stereotype “well of your husband will immediately jump at a threesome,” but have only demonstrated your ignorance of the true complexities of negotiating sexual needs and desires. In your world, women apparently have no desire for kink and only want vanilla, while men of course would do ANYTHING.

You couldn’t be more wrong.

And yes, you hit a nerve, but not the one you think. I don’t think your advice to LOSER was that bad. I think your “concern trolling” to me, which painted me in such an ugly light - as a selfish lover, as boring and unfun, as ignorant of my own husband’s desires - does piss me off. I am done being talked down to by no-nothing’s like you.

I’ve walked the wild sex life, I’ve been married to my husband for years and negotiated sex (lol, how do you think I know he was disappointed?), and yet, you still sit there in every post telling ME you know better than I do what is in my husband’s mind.

Why?

Despite my obvious sexual experience? Despite eleven years of marriage? Despite coming to places like savage love and thus interested in sex?

Why can’t you accept I might know my husband better than you?

Why do you think you understand my husband better - to even know he thinks I am “boring?”

What gives you more insight than I do?

You won’t answer honestly, but many posters here know exactly what it is.

88

And your comments might have a point had i said, “who gives a shit” about LOSERs needs or that he should be happy with what he gets.

And yes - for men and women - ultimately all relationships are take it or leave it. And people like LOSER and YOU would be far happier if you decided to do the same. That is not the same as never negotiating, but if the negotiation goes no where - ie your future husband tells you he isnt willing to share you with other men - that is your only choice. I took it and i don’t pout or whine or mull over it. It’s called acceptance. You don’t like the word settle, or don’t like “take it or leave it,” but like a child who squeals over the word “no,” when you get a lot more experience you will see why those philosophies work in an imperfect world.

Tell you what, stop trying so hard to tell people (who arent asking for advice) what to do, Aracuania, and start reading the other comments and absorb those lessons. I hope LOSER reads my original comment, takes ownership of his feelings, and acts on them.

89

Araucania, I think you are being deliberately hostile and willfully misunderstanding things. The only thing I have to add is that you are somehow repeatedly equating a satisfactory sex life with non-vanilla or multi-partnered sex- like that by default this is somehow more satisfactory? Also you are assuming that the women talking to you about their husbands are somehow the ones who have pushed for this or have not communicated with their husbands (or that those conversations were not initiated by those husbands, etc). But generally I'm not arguing with you so much as Dark Horse is because your argument that you might know more about what Dark Horse's husband thinks/feels/desires is so outlandishly stupid that you are making a fool of yourself on your own and it's not that fun to argue about.

90

Although it's nice of you, Dark Horse, to consider the possibility of woman-splaining, your instincts are correct and Araucania is indeed a man. I would also bet the hot coffee at my side that he's also under 40 and has no kids, aged parents, or health issues. It's also telling that he prioritizes fun over everything else, and that fun for him means non-vanilla and multi-partnered sex- which is fine- but he can't comprehend that a) life comes at you fast and you can't always control it, just respond, and b) there are other endeavors in life that people might prioritize over fun and other ways to define fun.

Finally I touched also on the point that DH made above about men and three somes, etc, but I think it's worth reiterating since Araucania has such a bizarrely gendered understanding of settling down and vanilla etc. In my case, it was my husband that most wanted to close our marriage and my husband who said he is uninterested in casual sex with other women. He is open again to swinging and longer term arrangements that include other people, but that is not logistically feasible right now. We have a sick elderly person in our house and a young adult who is in and out- we spend a lot of time at home caregiving (monitoring), and we both have careers though his is much more time consuming than mine these days. When we have more free time, we want to fuck each other and enjoy friends. When we have even more time than that, we want to paddle and backpack. I suppose we could instead spend this time cultivating relationships with swingers or finding a hot young third, and if that person could magically appear (like if I could keep her in a genie jar and take her out when he wants her) I'm sure my husband would not turn her down- if she required absolutely no effort or expenditure of energy other than fucking and if also she was someone he knew and liked. But this does not exist, and so when we do have free time, if you ask my husband if he'd like to go to swinger's club or paddle our river, he's going to choose the later again and again. If you ask him if he'd rather go to a bar or have a bbq in our backyard with our friends, again he's going to choose the later. And while I find it would be fun to go on a dating app and hook up anonymously with a man on my lunch break, my husband is not interested in doing the same with a woman. He has that option- it's not a matter of us not discussing it. It's not what he wants to do. Does this baffle you? Only if you have a very narrow and stupid view of the world- men are half the planet and there are millions of them and it's stupid to think they all want to just fuck fuck fuck strangers aplenty all their lives at the expense of anything else and that this is the only possible way to have fun. And I said I wouldn't argue with foolishness and now here I am doing it which makes me a fool too I suppose. In short, grow the fuck up.

91

@ Darkhorse

Alright, this is getting ridiculous. You've parsed every argument Ive said down to "Men should like 3 ways and if they dont get them they deserve them, and its their wives fault". Congrats on hammering me down. Thats TOTALLY what I was saying. Except, for the 7th time, no its not. I said BOTH PARTNERS SHOULD BE HONEST AND OPEN ABOUT WHAT THEY WANT AND ARE HAPPY WITH.

This concept is either an anathema to you, or it's so against your ideal that "Her wants come first" that you can't absorb it enough to even properly criticize it. And so, there really isn't anything else I can say to you. Believe whatever the hell you want to believe. People (or I should say men, since you are triple down your argumentative targeting towards LOSER, me under the assumption I am a straight male, and any other man who wants kinky sex after whatever age youve determined is the right time for vanilla sex) should be interested in the type of sex you say they should be, when you say they should be. Happy? You won! Someone buy Darkhorse a cake. A middle aged, vanilla one in the shape of missionary, lights of sex .

@emmaliz

"Araucania, I think you are being deliberately hostile and willfully misunderstanding things. "

How am I being hostile? Darkhorse not only insulted me after I called her beliefs into question, but literally fabricated arguments that were the exact opposite of what I was saying. Then when I repeated what I said, darkhorse ignored it and argued the opposite again. Then I actually (stupid me) did the same for a 3rd time and got a 5 page, off the rails rant.

"The only thing I have to add is that you are somehow repeatedly equating a satisfactory sex life with non-vanilla or multi-partnered sex- like that by default this is somehow more satisfactory? "

Of course not. My only point, which I have now will have said 8 times, is that both partners should be honest about what they like, and if one partner is not ok with it, they arent "immature" or "baby man" or whatever snide attack I keep seeing for wanting something else. That went right over Darkhorses head.

" your instincts are correct and Araucania is indeed a man. I would also bet the hot coffee at my side that he's also under 40 and has no kids, aged parents, or health issues."

You are right on only 2 of those things. And you didnt even question or ask another important one. Please, put me in whatever box you are most comfortable with.

Read my previous comments if you think I'm some redpill meninist asshole. I responded because your comments, along with Darkhorse and many others were attacking LOSER for not being happy with his sex life. He jumped in the thread and felt the attacks and left.

Also, my "bizarrely gendered" concept of sex somehow included me, VERY specifically mentioning m/m, f/f, f/x, m/^n,/F/^n, relationships. But Darkhorse and a few others could only see "Man thinks he is entitled to threeways with his wife/significant other". Thats not my fault you both either werent reading my responses or choose to read them in a str8 male v str8 female way. My only point was that partners should be honest with each other. That very concept seems toxic with more than a few of LOSER's critics here, including yourself.

92

Araucania,

If your only point was that partners should be honest and communicate and blah blah blah, then you would not have argued with someone who told you that they were doing that with their own husband and called into question whether they were REALLY doing that or just projecting.

93

Also, where did I attack Loser for not being happy with his sex life? If anything, I defended him saying it's natural that hearing about his gf's past would make him realize what he missed out on when he was young and if he wants that now, it's fine and good to ask for it or figure out a way to seek it. It's just not good to pressure the gf for it or resent her past because he didn't do anything when he was young.

94

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