Savage Love




Of course GAY will always find it is easier to meet male sex partners than female sex partners, and work and other responsibilities have a way of limiting our free time. So GAY needs to be realistic and start finding ways to carve out time to look for female sex partners. That said, GAY should have sex with whomever she wants and not feel badly about wanting sex with men.


Canapes! I also missed that when reading the letter on SLOG. So much funnier though, thanks for leaving it in!


Who you have relationships with and who you have sex with aren't the same thing.

Also, GAY can think of her man-friend as less friend and more very good masturbatory tool.

And yes, queer seems a good option here, as well as, none of your business.

Or, if you share with your friends that you sleep with a man sometimes because you need sex, and they are not fans of that solution, you can always offer them the opportunity to step up.


Oh WOW, Joe! This one is the peas de resistance, a true masterpeas.


Lots of recycled questions for the past few months, Dan. Are you writing a book?


I second jack chandelier's (@2's) comment, and will always savor the canapes (canopies?) response re PEE's letter. Thank you and bless you, Dan the Man. You are truly a treasure.

Congratulations, MUFF, for sharing your wonderful story. I'm glad that everything went so well for you, your husband, and your male guest. Now that's a three-way done right.
Bless you, Dan, for keeping up the excellent work. Kudos!

GAY, just be yourself. I have already wasted too much of my life worrying about others thought of me. People told me to lighten up and get a life, so my beloved and I finally did. Celebrate your joie de vive.


@5 badpancreas: You got my attention.
Dan---are you writing another book? When is it due out? Will you have another signing?


The term "pro-dick- sitting bias" caught my eye. Why the space after the second hyphen? Which is the typo... the space or the hyphen? Does Dan have a "pro-dick" sitting [deeply seated] bias, or a pro "dick-sitting" bias? Am I over-thinking this?


GAY, you don't. Have. To. Tell. Anyone. What. You're. Doing. You can tell your friends your FBW is a friend and leave out the "with benefits" part. You don't have to tell anyone anything. Plenty of completely straight people don't announce their sex partners or sometimes even their romantic partners.


I'm a lesbian, or at least I was for most of my life. I always found it EXCEEDINGLY easy to hook up with women, to the extent that I had at least a thousand sex partners, most for only one night. I met them at gay bars, other kinds of bars, and online. I made myself "useful" by being down for the bicurious experiments and women with male partners who weren't interested in women romantically. I was simply direct about what I wanted, and got it on a routine basis. I'm attractive but not spectacularly so. Later in life I became bored with women sexually, but have only hooked up with one man because he was the only one I ever met who even felt like he belonged to the same species as me. I don't really know how to go about heterosexuality, but I do know that casual homosexuality isn't that difficult if you are willing to put yourself out there. Hook up with the guy if you want, but if what you really want is women, try Tinder ;)


Reading GAY's letter and Lesbian #1's response ("I used to slip on a dick once every few years") made me think about GAY slipping on a strap-on and pegging a guy.

What if she proposes to her male friend that he go down on her (or whatever acts she enjoys with women) in exchange for her pegging him? She doesn't have to engage in PIV if that's the part that brings down the overall score to the "below 5 range." Or maybe she doesn't like kissing guys; then she doesn't have to. I understand that FF sex feels different to her than MF sex... but I just wonder whether she could tease out the particular physical sensations she enjoys and see if she can negotiate with her male friend to focus on those.


Great comment, somegirlsomewhere @10. Can I ask whether you had an advantage over other lesbians in dating bicurious women, such as preferring going down on your partners? Or did you find your bicurious partners were equally willing to go down on you, and effective in their efforts?


I was mostly a top, great with my hands, my tongue, and a strap-on, and was happy if I could get the other girl off and didn't mind situations without reciprocation. I gravitated towards butch lovers for longer term things.


I know for me "physical sensations" had very little to do with my enjoyment of sex or the difference between sex with men and women - with women I wanted to get her off, I was turned on by her body, sounds, smells and a sense of accomplishment and closeness. With the man, I wanted to be owned. I liked that he was stronger than me and less ethical/more animalistic.


GAY, you wouldn't be anywhere near the first exclusively-woman-attracted person to go get some dick on the down low. Biggie @3 has it: if masturbating with a vibrator doesn't make you some kind of robosexual, masturbating with a guy's body and cock -- which is essentially what you're thinking of -- wouldn't necessarily make you bi. I'd second the recommendations you identify as queer, or bisexual but homoromantic, or homoflexible. And while it indeed is none of your friends' business, there are people in your dating pool who think like this woman, so there are indeed potential pitfalls to continuing to call yourself a lesbian:

Fubar @8: Yes, you are.

TLC @9: Yes, there's no need for GAY to share the details of her casual sex life with her friends. Most friends, in fact, don't want to know.

Somegirl @10: Thank you for the Tinder recommendation! ;) I guess there's the secret to getting with women: be the rare lesbian who's willing to sleep with non-lesbian women. We'll be ever so grateful.


Yeah, if you're a woman who wants to screw guys every now and then, you might not fit into the more traditional concept of what a "Lesbian" is - but who cares? Call yourself a six-winged pegasus if you like - no one's stopping you. But if you want to have an "accurate" label for your "mainly into women but might occasionally fuck a dude" self, just go with queer.


Dan, the young woman wrote in to you and yet you handed it over to two lesbians.. understandable given the lightening rod you are for some. Still, why not add your response as well?
Thanks for your insights and stories, somegirlsomewhere.
Labels are a guide, LW, you know who you are and you're the one running your story.


The return of the PissPartyMan, only reminds me how hard this kink is to vibe with. My mind wants to look at its origins, how does someone get to wanting to piss on someone, as an adult, and want to be pissed on. Boy babies have a habit of pissing on you as soon as you take their nappies off, arc the piss right into one's face.
Otherwise PissPartyMan, I have no fresh ideas re how to deal with your problem. Just go and talk straight to the guy and offer to help him set the tone and advertise and provide towels / water, and suggest a few changes and tell him straight he kills the mood with how he barges in.
Or sort something else out.


Instagram seems to be a new dating site. Congrats LW, on your successful threesome.


Less ethical/ more animalistic.. as somegirlsomewhere @14 said.
A man can be animalistic and still be ethical.


Lavagirl - I won’t dispute that statement, but this particular man is far darker, morally, than I am and this was part of his appeal. He is a predator. It is what it is.


The original comment thread on PEE is worth a read - a downpour of hilarity, sprinkled with a shower of wisdom:


GAY is bi if the idea turns her on, gay if it doesn't. Fair is fair, and if I'm going to call 'straight' guys closet cases for hitting on my husband or on our feminine male sub thirds+ (which happens, and I do quite a bit--I admit I have a sadistic streak when it comes to orientation play), I can't suddenly have a double standard when it comes to other genders. Does it matter? Yes if she gives a shit about her sexual partner as more than a purely mechanical masturbatory aid (I mean in a sexual/romantic sense, of course they can be friends), no if she doesn't, in which case we can only hope--again for the sake of fairness--that it is mutual. Sounds like it would be, so in that case, GAY, I say you two should have fun!


If she feels "guilty enough to hide it," though, then no, she shouldn't do it. Not because there's anything wrong with it, but because she's not in a position to do it in a healthy way. Guilt is too steep a price to pay for a sexual act, especially one you're not even that into. As much as humanly possible, own what you do. It you can't, don't do it. If the label is worth more to you than this one act, keep the label and don't perform the act.

If you feel genuinely bad or guilty because of people like me that hear that hypothetical and think certain things, stop listening to people like me. What the hell do I know about your life, GAY? Not much, so what good is judging yourself based on my totally myopic response to one hypothetical incident in your life? Not much good at all. People will always judge, it's a constant, so stop worrying about whether or not they will and start worrying about the extent to which you care.


First, it would be great if bi-sexual weren't so conflated with bi-romantic by the mass culture, which needs to get the nuance.

Second, lesbian cultural aprehension WRT fucking men is understandable given the stats for how many bisexual women end up marrying a guy.

It sounds like GAY is not bi-romantic, but is just a little bi-sexual. That she feels guilty enough about this to hide it, means that she's too concerned with what certain others think, and would be happier if she and her chosen friends were more evolved about it, and less a part of bisexual erasure.


@25 I think for a lot of people, it's hard to parse because it's seen as disingenuous to have sex with someone you wouldn't hypothetically date, or some indicator that you're closeted or cheating or both. It might be useful to use a phrase that doesn't imply a romantic connection, to connote sex without ties as opposed to sex with it. Fucking versus lovemaking (still a too-wordy term to me, but whatever), for example. An example sentence would be "GAY might want to fuck this guy but she would only love a woman."

It might sound harsh on the surface, but its linguistic associations are far more honest, and in the end, that's so much easier for everyone involved.


Well, I've tried more than once to expand the identification vocabulary in order to reduce as far as possible the need for rounding.

On the limited information provided, I am disinclined to think highly of the propositioning friend.


GAY is like a lot of the LWs here...soooo concerned with an identifying niche! Why do you have to have a 100% CERTIFIED LESBIAN label? Can't you just be a person who likes sex? With girls. With the occasional guy. With Himalayan Yaks if that's your thing. Is there some kind of license plate that you can't get if you fuck a guy? Is there a scanner at the entrance to lesbian bars that will emit a piercing siren wail if you walk in after "slipping on a dick"? (PS, LOVE that phrase!)


@28 You may not see what the big deal is, and that's fine, but we've all heard that labels don't matter, and that somehow doesn't stop them from impacting our lives anyways. Clearly they matter to GAY in that she only really felt comfortable in her own skin after accepting that yes, she did fit into a label. Labels are identifications that come with all sorts of baggage, bad and good alike. They don't suddenly stop having an impact on people just because the world isn't always so neat.

It would be great if we were all totally easygoing pansexuals who lived a bonobo-like existence fucking the day away without a care in the world, but that's just not the case.



You're doing the Lord's work, Dan. Keep it up.


Okay, fine, Dan reruns SLLOTDs in his weekly column. I don't like to revisit ground so recently covered, but he's busy and maybe he thinks that those who read the weekly column and not the daily, won't see an otherwise-interesting letter.

But not only was the first letter in this week's column (from PEE) from last week (Tuesday, May 15), but he has used it in his reader advice roundup of Thursday, May 17 ("He's Running a Piss Party, Not a Fucking Singles Event") and it's enough already. IMHO.


GAY, it has been suggested that you use your male friend like a sex toy. Please don't treat him, or anyone you have sex with like a fuck toy, unless you've explicitly negotiated that dynamic before hand. We routinely scold people who treat their partners like sex machines, and your circumstances don't warrant a derogation from that rule.


Lionface @29: You're hitting them out of the park this week. "Labels don't matter" is a hetero-privileged viewpoint. For us queers, labels can be the key to finally understanding things that confused us since puberty. (Yes, even a label like "bicurious" for someone who is still confused.)

Nocute @31: I agree. If something is going to be rerun not once, but twice, it should be a letter that's going to resonate with far more of the readership than a gay man who's into watersports. Not many of us can relate to PEE's situation.

Sublime @32: "A male friend I know and trust recently propositioned me" sounded to me like it was clearly about adding benefits to the friendship. But you're right -- she should confirm that this is indeed what he's after. Of course she's not to blame if he hides ulterior motives, or catches feelings. But if she senses he's getting attached, she should break things off.


GAY, labels should only be used as shorthand for introducing yourself. Others should not slap labels on you. You can go right on identifying as gay if it feels right to you. However, anyone who can and does respond sexually to both sexes is bi technically speaking.
I suspect that your concern is how you can honestly represent yourself as gay to a woman you see as a potential partner if you know you have had sex with a man recently.
There are bi people who need to have sex with both sexes, and bi people who can have sex with either, but can form a solid, possibly monogamous relationship with either because the person matters more than their sex.
You cannot know for sure how you will feel about having a relationship with a woman until you have time to develop one. Once your life allows for that, you should be able to tell her that you have had sex with men, but you prefer women.


LavaGirl @18 wrote "how does someone get to wanting to piss on someone, as an adult, and want to be pissed on."

Like most kinks, there's no real point in trying to figure out where it comes from. I like it from both sides, actually, whether pissing on someone or getting pissed on. It's animalistic, intimate, and the sense of relief if you've been drinking beer and holding in your piss -- well, it's amazing to be able to let loose and be appreciated for doing so. For anyone who sometime has trouble getting an erection or orgasming with a partner, pissing can push some of those same buttons without the pressure.

I recommend avoiding eating asparagus beforehand, though.


@31 nocutename: PEE's letter has been in SL circulation three times this last week?
I saw it on SLOG, too. Wow, a whole lot of rePEEts going on.
Dan, please let us know when your next book is out.


@35 You know you're an adult the first time you have to push back planned watersports because you and your partner accidentally ate asparagus.

PS I've said it before and I'll say it again, hydration is so important!


BDF @ 33 - "Not many of us can relate to PEE's situation"

I can! At least to some extent. But the only thing I have to say to PEE is: It's his party and he'll piss on you if he wants to. I've unfortunately never been to a piss party (I've only experienced one-on-one or two-on-one sessions), but I've taken part in enough orgies/group scenes to know that at one point, the scene itself should be one's turn-on, not the identity/looks/musical tastes of one of the participants. If you want a private moment with someone, a party is not the place to have it. Unless you throw your own and set strict rules, of course, but I wonder if many people would go more than once to such a party.

(And those were the five minutes I had to comment this week. Bye everyone!)


Ricardo- thanks for another thoughtful, insightful, well-articulated
I’m donating a minute for the upcoming one.

Aunt Zelda- “rePEEts” gets the golden.


Griz @36: "rePEEts" Ha! Love it! Pun of the week award goes to Auntie Griz :)

Ricardo @38: Thanks for the flying post! Good luck with your work!

Dan may not be writing a book; he's a politics journalist too, and may just be busy covering the latest spate of school shootings. Either way, we seem to have got fresh SLLOTDs every day, so Dan, let me say that in spite of the rePEEt (perhaps reruns could be the last letter of the weekly column, not the first?), I continue to appreciate all that you do.


Hey Ricardo. Hugs. I do sometimes wonder where you've gone.


Yes Fan, why repeat the pee letter. Doing so did get Erica and Ricardo to share, from experience, and offer suggestions. so there's that.


Lava @42: Me? Nocute and Griz questioned it too. I just said that perhaps it could have been rerun below the fold, with a fresh letter leading the week.


OK, so what's the U-Haul joke ?


Roland @44:
Q: What does a lesbian bring on her second date?
A: A U-Haul.


Instagram is a hook-up app? I gotta get me an Instagram account.


yes Fan. I was agreeing, then I realised showing it again did bring forth more comments, and helpful ones. I mean, seriously. What do most of us know about piss party etiquette.
Is a U haul some kind of a truck. That's a rude joke. Even lesbians slag off women. Or is it true?


@46, a subtle one. I think I read Elon Musk and his new gf hooked up via instagram. Pictures say a thousand words.


+1 to @10’s comment. GAY, I’ve lived in small-ish cities and big-ish cities, and as a lesbian who is strictly non-dickly (wish I didn’t have to use a qualifier after stating I’m a lesbian, but more on that in a moment) I have found it to be not too challenging to hook up with women for casual sex only, provided you are willing to make the first move AND be honest about what you are/are not looking for. If you’re not willing to do those things then yes, you’re probs going to find men much easier and more available for casual sex. So maybe give it a go, and try for the hot lady sex you want instead of the meh man sex you can get.

As for GAY’s desire for permission to/absolution from calling herself a lesbian while sexing (presumably) cis hetero men on the somewhat regular, I can’t do it. Before I get ripped to shreds by commenters saying I’m insisting on some version of lesbian purity, I’m not, but I’m also advocating for a degree of honesty in the use of generally agreed upon language in the queer community. I think it’s great that GAY feels like a lesbian identify “fits” her and makes her feel very much herself. If that’s true, then my guess is making more of an effort with women would solve her problem. But, if GAY really does desire even the infrequent romp with a man, then she would be more honest (to herself, to her partners/prospective partners, to the millions of bisexuals who regularly experience bi erasure) to acknowledge her bisexual-preferring-women-homoromantic (making a guess here, but seems accurate) orientation. Bi erasure is real, and I wonder why GAY is so uncomfortable with this orientation if she’s going for men because she likes it (sometimes) not just because she’s lazy. Also, lesbian erasure is VERY real, and GAY isn’t doing us any favors by identifying as lesbian while sexing men. Like every woman who has ever lived, I’ve turned down men’s advances (sometime polite, sometimes sleazy, sometimes threatening), and when I do I give them the honest reason - I’m a lesbian. I would say somewhere in the range of 50-70% of men aren’t shut down by this revelation, because they believe lesbians are potentially and maybe even probably still available to men for sex. Now, that’s not just on GAY and women who identify as lesbians but “occasionally slip on dicks.” It’s mostly on shitty socialization teaching men that women are, or should be, available for sex. However, when some men find the GAYs of the world, they tell their bros who tell their bros, and then you end up with assholes like Jersey Shore Vinny who make it their summer goal to bang a lesbian. GAY, in the end it really is your business what you call yourself and who you share it with, but as a lesbian and an advocate for bi visibility, I recommend you give it more thought before publicizing your new address on the Isle of Lesbos.


Thanks somanyways @49. A heartfelt comment. Yes, I can see how the term lesbian has eroded in meaning over the yrs. and I agree with you, it's not a true description of a woman if she also likes cock.


Lava @ 47
While additional comments were helpful I don’t see the need to print everything three times from now on. Let’s hope Ricardo and EP’s words of wisdom can be with us in the first round from now on.

Somanyways @ 49
Rest assured, I see your point and agree that GAY should look for a broader, more inclusive self-defining term.
That said, I suspect she goes by ”lesbian” not in order to ward off men, but mostly to prove female peers that she is “real.”
Your articulate, explanatory response could be the exception while brushed aside by other gay women who will shun her for her biness, maybe also also ridicule her lesbianism.


I agree CMD. I can't influence Dan's decisions to rerun letters. Like the good catholic I was trained to be I try to see the good.
What lesbians shun bi women? And even if they do it's no reason not to see that language has meaning, and being bi, even a little bit bi, is an orientation to be proud of.


@38 Ricardo: Hola, mi amigo! Great to see you back, commenting. Big hugs, positrons, and VW beeps.
@39 CMDwannabe and @40 BiDanFan: Aww, shucks, folks, I'm sPEEchless---hee hee!

Seriously, thanks so much. I needed a good laugh. I was previously working on an online assignment, and my computer was stubbornly refusing to cooperate with my transition from one software program to the other. Thankfully I was able to save my composed scores to pdf and MP3 audio files and submit them, and also download my Week 8 assignment film clip to set music to----YAAAAY!----but not without a cyber-fight, two reboots, and shedding of tears. Sometimes, I swear my Mac is possessed by the devil. I'm tempted to watch The Witches of Eastwick yet again (although Brad Pitt, not Jack Nicholson, would be my devil of choice).


@38 Ricardo: Hola, amigo! Glad to see you back!
@39 CMDwannabe & @40 BiDanFan: Awww, shucks folks, I'm sPEEchless---hee hee!


Lava @47: Gotcha, misunderstood your tone.
A U-Haul is a rental van people hire for moving. So the joke is that lesbians shack up pretty much immediately.

SoManyWays @49: Thanks for your excellent comment. I can confirm that claiming to be a lesbian tends to encourage, not deter, sleazy men. They don't hear "I don't like men," they hear "I have a stable of female fuck-buddies who'd love to join us." UGHHHH. "I have a boyfriend" is a more effective dodge, because these men respect other men's property more than they respect women's agency. I dream of a world where "No thank you" will be universally accepted.

Lava @52: Many lesbians shun bi women. Just last week I was at a lesbian-themed independent play and part of the dialogue was slagging off "queer" women who date men but come to lesbian bars, saying they didn't belong there. It confirmed I was right to feel uncomfortable in lesbian spaces, as I'd just been saying to my (bi) date. As someone who's been left for a man more than once, I do get it, but it just exacerbates the problem.


Hunter @56: She's "currently working 50 hours a week and going to school." She has no relationships. She has no time for anything but casual sex -- it's a wonder she has time for that!


I had an fuckbuddy ex in the 90s who rounded up from bi to lesbian, which I found out when we were out for a drink and ran into a dyke friend and suddenly I went from being treated as a sexy-friend to complete stranger. Didn't get it at the time but later when talking with gay friends realized how extremely wary some lesbians are of bi women who might get involved with them on a lark, then decide to settle down with men later. Glad to hear the social pressures to fit into one 'team' or the other are less intense now.


@58 DrJones Gee, you'd think by the time she was in her 90s she wouldn't care so much. Ya never know, I guess.


DrJones @58: It was still rude of her to not acknowledge you as at least a friend! :(


' something was happening and you didn't know what it was, did you drjones.'
That's so sad. Lesbians not trusting bi women would chose them over men.
Radical lesbians probably don't want to go where a male has been or even have the woman a male has been in, in their bar. Probably some would like to a detection device so at the door any woman with any traces of male inside them, won't be allowed in. Pure Lesbian Land.


Congrats in advance to this week's Lucky @69 winner!
Happy Memorial Day Weekend for those out celebrating, and remembering all who served.


GAY: It doesn't matter what people think. It matters that you are comfortable with your sexuality and romanticallity. Having a male FWB sounds like a great idea, partly because as long as he knows from the start that you're looking for a relationship with a woman and just FWB with him, he's not going to get his expectations raised only to get hurt when you find Ms Right. Also, you can get your needs met and be less likely to rush into a bad relationship with your preferred gender. Plus, guys have lips, tongues and fingers, too, and some of us know how to use them pretty well. You won't be the first woman he's gone down on, but you might teach him a few things that will benefit him. It's a really good solution. And who knows, you might wind up in a relationship with someone who likes a little dick now and then, and you'll know just whom to call. So enjoy!


@11. Erica. I think this an excellent practical suggestion.

It's a bit dispiriting to me that pissplay is hard to imagine as erotic for many people. Isn't it clearly about dominance and submission? And (if not that) about abstention from responsibilities? And these things are the stock-in-trade of eros, of fantasies? Hell's bells, it's surely more comprehensibly or availably erotic as hetero PIV...?


@25. curious2. What you say is interesting and in all probability right, but I think we should cut the LW some slack for wanting to have casual sex without needing to give an account of herself or even think about it too hard. If this means being with a man, and having good but less than earthshaking sex, well, so be it. It could well be easier, both for the LW and generally, for a gay/bi/queer woman to have a casual relationship (more than a hookup, less than a motive for the fabled U-Haul) with a man. Let her have this--if she wants it--without inquiring too closely into issues of identification or personal politics.


Harriet @65: As someone with no interest in piss play, no, it's not "clearly" about anything more than making a mess. Sorry. It may be more "comprehensively erotic" to you than anything involving vaginas, but you're gay. For most of us who either have vaginas, enjoy vaginas, or both, the idea of anything involving a vagina is way more erotic than the not-at-all-sexual act of emptying our bladders. This is why it's considered a fetish. (It does seem that many gay men have at least tried it; I suspect the numbers are far lower for women, possibly because we've been so thoroughly socialised to see pissing as something private, while gay men sexualise the act due to surreptitious glances at other men's cocks at urinals?) Anyway, no, I don't find it erotic at all, and the one time I tried to be GGG with a partner, pee shyness and not wanting to make a mess meant I never got to find out whether I enjoyed it. I don't feel I'm missing out.


Also, "Hell's bells" is just so adorably quaint! Thanks for the smile!


BiDanFan @67 re "pee shyness and not wanting to make a mess" -- drinking a lot of beer helps enormously with the first (both reducing inhibitions & filling one's bladder); standing in a shower/bathtub helps with the second. It's comforting to know that whatever mess happens will be cleaned up right away, no hassle!


I worked with a lady, who had a live-in GF, who made it known to me that she got "really straight" when she had been drinking. I also worked with another who apparently followed the same. Who really cares? I banged them both, at separate times. We were all happy, no one got hurt. It seems it is the "friends" that get butthurt.


Harriet @65

Any connotations of domination or submission in piss play would be more evident in the extreme (yes, I'm being coyly euphemistic) versions of it. I think it's just about the fact that It. Feels. Good. when you release it, and even more so when you release a lot. When it hits skin, it's hot ... but not as hot as wax play. So I'd put it in the category of Sensation play.


@69 Hunter78: Congratulations for hitting this week's Lucky @69!


@67. Bi. Well, you're certainly not missing out if you don't find it sexy....

I thought what Erica said @35 a lot more humane--that it's an enjoyable form of sex for people who can't or don't have orgasms or can't or don't have (or maintain) erections. When I want to talk to someone, but with a sexual edge, and when the idea of having to get and use an erection is an imposition to me (I mostly mean with near-strangers), pissplay is often the form of sex we'll hit on. Increasingly proposing this isn't a stab in the dark, but something one knows is likely to go down well (erm, the suggestion) because of information gleaned over the grapevine, from chatsites, etc. I like (love) PIV--don't get me wrong. I would no more be happy going without it for life than I would forsaking Chateaubriand or Porterhouse (possibly a poor analogy; I've just remembered you're a vegetarian). But it's not a staple for me. The last time I had steak was three years ago.

I do have a view on whether Dan's letters should feature problems likely to be experienced by many (or by a broad spectrum) of Dan's readers, rather than niche kinks. (I don't really have a view on whether people with vanilla sex lives should be able to empathise with watersports--that was badly phrased). My view would be: it would be wrong, in fact, for problems to feature in the column ihe proportion in which they occur in society. What are these main problems? 'My wife wants to have sex less I do--straight husband'. 'My husband only wants extremely routinized forms of PIV sex and won't talk to me about it--straight wife'. 'I want to fuck around but my girlfriend wants monogamy--straight young man'. 'How do I get my boyfriend to commit?'--straight young woman. You want that every week? First, it could get boring; and second, I see this as a resource for queer people. Our problems have been treated knowledgeably, compassionately and divertingly here for years--maybe longer than they have anywhere else. My view would be that, in reading the site and entering into the problems, one symbolically becomes queer--at the very least, gives up all pretence of being a homophobe and hopefully a transphobe, too (though people find this harder...). By that, I mean that readers agree to suppose that a variety of issues affecting others with identifications or relationship practices they don't share (including nonmonogamy, grouping, D/s, kink and nonheterosexuality) are ones they can sympathise with and try to understand psychologically, 'from the inside', as it were.


@72. Helenka. I've never tried wax play--I'm a cissy about pain. For me, there's a mind-game where 'I'm listening empathetically to your life-story ... then I'm pissing all over you'. But watersports isn't something I've tried a lot e.g. in designated groups. Agree it feels ... great!


Harriet @74: Oh, by no means am I arguing that Dan's columns should exclude interests that are not common. Definitely not! Reading about kinks that never occurred to me has been so eye-opening and educational; knowledge is power when you encounter a partner who has a kink that you're familiar with from Savage Love. I share your hope that straight/vanilla/cis people -- not to mention gay/poly/kinky people who think their way is the best way -- end up more open minded as a result, and wish everyone would read the column, for this reason.

The same letter about a niche interest appearing three times in a single week seemed a bit much, is all.

Going back to watersports in particular, your post was food for thought. It makes perfect sense that men would be more into this than women for many reasons. I think another poster already noted that cis women don't have any sort of visual, visceral connection with our urine; we sit down and it goes away. People with penises can watch themselves peeing every time they do it, and a certain percentage must be fascinated with that. People with penises can pee anywhere they like; they can aim and control it; it's no wonder some may see this as an opportunity to exert sexual dominance. Young boys may have been disciplined for peeing in "inappropriate" circumstances, which can form the basis for shame-based kinks. And as you say, it's something you can do without an erection. Sure, there are some women who dig it, too, but absent all these reasons it makes sense that it's far less popular among the vagina set.

Hunter @69: Congrats on the magic number, and for making a post with which for once I am in total agreement. Come on, Stranger staff -- get with the 20th century!


Ms Fan - Thank you for once again making a point, consciously or otherwise, supporting the need for an expanded vocabulary. Either M?? Harriet or I should get a new category.


@77. Venn. I chafe more at being called 'a gay MAN' than a 'GAY man'. But at neither very much. I have to live in the real world.


@Harriet, my objection to the third iteration of PEE's letter wasn't grounded in my distaste for the kink it contains. My primary objection was that I found the original problem boring and we read it a lot in one week. Not only was the same letter reprised twice in a week, making for three appearances, but it wasn't a letter about a kink. It was an etiquette problem, worthy of any advice columnist, anywhere; perhaps Miss Manners, most aptly. (A guy hosts a party which I'd like to attend, and I'm not willing to host the party myself, but the host is an obnoxious boor. Can I tell him that and continue to go to his parties?).

It's interesting to me that the commenters turned from the mundane issue to the more intriguing one of the pros and cons of piss play, just as in the SLLOTD case of the straight-married guy who is/was getting clandestine blowjobs from one guy with an amazing mouth and who happened to throw in the tidbit that he has an almost 10-inch penis, the commenters focused less on the issue the letter covers--which was the cheating with a dash of maybe-bisexuality--and more on the believability of someone having a nearly 10-inch penis. (And, as is our wont, got into some truly stupid arguments along the way.)

As far as the degradation aspect of peeing on someone goes, it seems clear. Personally, I don't like it. I mean, I get it; I just don't get it; it's not for me. While I like a certain amount of degradation, I don't care to mix sex and elimination (either of urine or feces), and the amount of preparation and cleanup required makes being peed on doubly unappealing to me. I've tried it to be ggg, but it's not my thing, and while it doesn't horrify me, it takes me so out of the mood for sex that it is now a hard limit for me. Fortunately, I've never had a partner for whom it was necessary.

As far as the purely physical sensations of peeing or being peed on go, I guess I admire humanity's variation and resourcefulness, but . . . meh. While I enjoy a good pee (so many unsung pleasures in the world! ) and love the relief of it, I can't make the leap between that bodily pleasure and sex.
I think that BiDanFan's points about the difference between penis-havers and vagina-havers different experiences with peeing might explain a lot.

** These are where I would have used italics. Webmaster, why can't we do that anymore?


Oh my god: my original asterisks were omitted. I wasn't even using HTML commands! What gives? What's next: colons? Exclamation points? Question marks?


nocutename @79 -- not saying anyone should engage in sex play they don't enjoy, but I'm a bit confused by the reasoning here: "the amount of preparation and cleanup required"

Prep - drinking 2 beers and enjoying a fun conversation instead of excusing myself to visit the restroom.
Cleanup- a shower before crawling into bed.

I understand not wanting to mix sex and elimination, sure. But (at least to me) the process itself is no big deal.


@EricaP: For me, the preparation included setting up a place to get peed on, and showering immediately afterward and before moving anywhere else so I didn't get urine on any furniture. I was the peed-upon, not the pee-er. The prep wasn't hugely onerous (I just cleaned my bathtub so I could crouch in it), but the action of getting into the tub so I could get peed on was profoundly unsexy to me. Since there was going to be more traditional kinky sex happening afterwards (the peeing was an hors d'oeuvres), which was going to be taking place in/on my bed, I felt compelled to shower between the peeing and the everything else, and while I was able to get back in the mood relatively quickly, I found the interruption to just sort of impede the buildup of the kind of tension I enjoy.


@79. Nocute. I know that you were not expressing distaste for the kink of pissplay. It was Bi who said 'the problem' would not 'resonate' with many of the readership, which was the comment I was really getting back to. Your comments were all in order, it seemed to me.

I'm not sure you have to explain why pissplay doesn't appeal to you, any more than I have to say why it does to me. If I said, 'sometimes I want to feel active doing something sexual without feeling the need to maintain an erection', it would be true-ish, but I still feel it would be reductively true of my attraction, in principle, to watersports. But do I have to say this? No, not really.

If Dan re-runs problems, I'd guess the main other call on his time has been 'consultations', one-to-one sessions, with people with problems--far more than can appear in the column, or would want to. I feel proud that 'our' interest in his life-and-sex advice is underwriting the space and time he has to get back to people. Maybe the one-to-ones are his most important work.


@44 @45
It doesn't totally make sense without the second part:

Q: What does a gay man bring on a second date?
A: What second date?


Also, folks, can we just call a spade a spade?

If you want to fuck dudes, you aren't a lesbian. It's like that DontEvenReply bit about the vegan who loved veal.


Harriet, I know I don't have to explain my distaste for pissplay. I wasn't looking for absolution from you or anyone else. I'm absolutely fine with my likes and dislikes and my conscience is clear regarding my willingness to try something for someone else's sake.
I was merely trying to join in the conversation.

Some people like it; some are grossed out by it; some of us are just left cold by it.


@79 nocute, bit of a stretch saying any advice columnist could deal with a piss party problem. It's not true. They could write it up on fetlife, heavens those lifers love to chat.
Otherwise, Dan is the man. What gets me with some of these male writers is what they notice in any situation. and gay men, men who aren't interacting sexually with women, it's like I stand back and observe another species. In some aspects, I mean. We all share humanity.


Why not set up a party like this where there is minimal props, towels if someone is lying on the ground, and have it out in the trees. Maybe set up discreet areas, a tarp tied to trees to create some seclusion. Get a few men to work together to create the event.


Another long weekend for Dan. Off around the country doing his thing. Wish he'd come to Australia. He was right next door in NZ a couple of years ago. Good on him, spreading the word of authenticity.


@76, that's not always true Fan. When I go outside at night, I don't bother going up to the house to piss in the toilet. The earth is fine, and I watch myself pee. Just checking where it's heading. Nothing erotic about it, satisfying anyway.
Men piss and come out of the same hole, which as you say Fan, they look at every time they piss and when they self pleasure.
I can see it can be a game too, like a fireman's hose. My boys I remember pissing on each other, or do I imagine it happened.


@89 aren't you in Darwin or Perth or far western Australia? That's as far from New Zealand and Juneau is from Miami!




NoSportlandia, I'm in Queensland, an hour or so north of Brisbane. Eastern Australia. Not sure where far Western Australia is, it stops at the ocean.


@69 Hunter: I can't believe I'm actually agreeing with you for once, but I am, and while I'm at it I second BiDanFan @76 and nocutename @80: Dear Stranger Staff: what gives on the omission of italics, bold, underlining and asterisks? Did the Savage Love column get a colon-o-scopy?
Or did someone get PEEved by my puns this week?


Harriet @83: "I'm not sure you have to explain why pissplay doesn't appeal to you"

She doesn't HAVE to, but you are the one who expressed incredulity (@65) at why some people woulnd't find piss play a turn-on, so some of us answered.