GAYBYBI, why has your boyfriend been indirect about his sexual interests? It’s right there in your letter: “Could my beautiful bottom boy be ... bi? If he is, I don't know how we can handle it.” In short, he wants a relationship with you, but also wants sex with women, but knows you can’t handle that fact. It doesn’t sound like non-monogamy is the issue, just the gender of his potential outside sex partners. If that’s the case, Dan’s right, your boyfriend should find another partner.

CUMSL, in your shoes I would be reluctant to spend time with a “straight” guy whose into using you for free massages and hand jobs. He’s either a closet case, so there’s that to worry about, or he’s just selfish. If you get a lot of pleasure servicing someone, by all means continue, but it didn’t sound that way, and eventually your going to feel used.

JSR, why not DTMFA and get yourself a Canadian, eh?

Regardless of what it "means", it seems like GAYBYBI's BF is pretty up front about what he likes and wants to do. Wouldn't a rosebud by any other name still smell as sweet?

CUMSL: Did you enjoy your experience, recip or no?

IWFU: I wouldn't even call it cognitive dissonance because plenty of folks stopped having ideas for longer than it takes to tweet about them. It's fashionable to support sex workers today. It's fashionable to decry men for... most anything, really. But we're in a principle-free era, what you think in one scenario has no bearing on what you think in another scenario. Embrace it and be free, brother!

RE: JSR A confession - I was raised by Assholes. In my family, everyone was sarcastic and acerbic and, well, Rude to each other for no good reason at all. I was the youngest, and that's what I learned by example.

Then I left for college, the first in my family to do so. It was an eye opener. I learned a lot about living in the world with other people. Some years later, I got married. In these years away from my family, I learned how to be a civilized human being and treat others with kindness and respect. You should demand it. It doesn't require yelling or screaming on your part (though if you are fed up, I'm not saying you can't), and in fact, explaining calmly might help make your point. But you deserve decent treatment. And if your partner/spouse/housemate won't give it to you, find someone who will.

CUMSL, your new buddy will come around. Massages with hand jobs are a slippery, well lubricated slope. But it will may him a while. So like Dan said, get an additional jack-off buddy and wait it out.

The difference between sex workers and Johns is one of consent. The sex worker knows the client is freely consenting, whereas in this current environment, you don't really know if your sex worker is being trafficked or otherwise coerced into having sex with you.

Also, I suppose there's a bit of an ego thing to it - you're having sex with someone you know isn't attracted to you and is just doing a job - but mainly I think the objection is the whole "ethical consent" thing.

I would think JSR's partner is frustrated with them over issues that go deeper than where JSR stands. Or perhaps not? The partner could just be rude. Or he or she could have an autism/Asperger's- or spectrum-like response to physical overstimulation, crowding or blockage; and become so momentarily stressed that he can't deal with it physically.

The long-term basis of GAYBYBI's relationship is that his partner is a gold-star gay. His partner has sought GAYBYBI out on this ground, i.e that the LW wants or insists on it, probably for reasons of the bf's internalized biphobia. Alternatively, the boyfriend has 'proclaimed himself' on these terms because actively or implicitly solicited by GAYBYBI. The situation is a difficult one, that will require some untangling and thinking through, principally by the LW. What is his own aversion to being with a bi guy? Fear of abandonment? Of unworthiness? Of the repetition of some traumatic time in the past where he was left for a female? And shamed for it? He needs to grapple with this, by himself as much as with his partner, if he wants to continue with the relationship.

Can't or finds it hard to deal with civilly, I meant.

"so homoflexible he could tour with Cirque du Soleil" -- Oh, Dan, bravo!! That's made my morning. :-D

I'm glad Dan ran GAYBYBI's letter as proof that bisexuals hide in both straight closets and bi ones. GAYBYBI's signoff (if he chose it) refers to his boyfriend as "younger"; he may be in a similar situation to the married woman who never got to experiment with women before settling down, and only now does he feel secure enough with himself and in his relationship to let his opposite-sex interest out.
Also, don't gay men use Fleshlights? Lesbians use dildos. That seems odd.

I think there's more going on in JSR's relationship than close quarters. "Do you have to stand there?" are the words of someone who resents their partner. Either they live in a New York-sized studio flat and the lack of personal space is driving JSR's partner nuts, in which case they need to look for a new place, or Partner is already thinking about doing this on their own.

CUMSI, would your jack-off buddy let YOU jack off next to, or preferably on, him? If no, I'd say look elsewhere.
Also, he might have just been being polite by "indicating he might hit you up again." If he's straight, he always says this to his women hookups, but rarely means it. I suspect this problem will solve itself -- sorry, CUMSI.

Correction to COLIN: A poly woman has (or wants) two or more PEOPLE she loves and fucks. :-)

IWFU's "either you blow me or you allow me to get that need met elsewhere" solution is 100% consistent with Dan's advice. Glad those two are happy and that IWFU is supporting the sex worker economy in hopefully a way that is pleasant for them.

Amending @9: "... that bisexuals hide in both straight closets and GAY ones." Oops.

Thank you everyone commenting so far in this week's Savage Love. I am afraid I don't have anything to add, so I'll try again later.

Did anyone else think that GAYBYBI boyfriend's recent behaviour may have something to do with gender identity rather than sexual orientation? The whole "call my ass a pussy" thing is something I've only encountered among AMAB people who identified as cross-dressers, genderfluid, or trans. People with external plumbing, who were at least somewhat feminine-of-centre. Is this really a thing among garden-variety bisexual cis men, whose gender identity is not in question?

From this point of view, the boyfriend's interest in straight and lesbian porn and MMF threesomes could be explained by his desire to inhabit a female/feminine body, rather than to fuck women. I have a friend who identified as a lesbian since her early teens, but went through a phase of hooking up with men just before coming out as a (queer/pansexual) trans man. He says that, in retrospect, he connects that period to a sublimated desire to be close to masculinity/ masculine bodies, which he wanted for himself, but couldn't quite articulate properly. In GAYBYBI's case, we don't have enough information to say either way, but I think it's a possibility, and Dan was a bit too quick to assume that BF was bi.

In any case, they need to talk.

^^Funnily enough, my friend was also a "gold-star lesbian" - until he wasn't.

The dude who sees sex workers would probably see his marriage end if he supported sex workers in any public manner. Same issue for most johns, is guess: they see sex workers so they can pretend they don't exist.

I'll give an alternative for JSR's question instead of simple rudeness. Maybe JSR has absolutely no sense of awareness of their surroundings, and constantly does things like stand in doorways or top of stairs on their phone, oblivious to anyone around them. Having to constantly say "excuse me" to a thoughtless partner could make a person start asking why the other feels it necessary to stand in such narrow, blockable spaces, which the obstructive partner views as rude because they are oblivious to what they are doing.

"bizarre!", you say, Gaybaby (GAYBYBI)? You're right, you do have serious problem, and I hope you do the work to grown beyond it, you bigot (on top of whatever else, as our dear Harriet kindly tried to help you by unpacking, like fear, insecurity, etc.).

Well sure, oral OUGHT to 'come standard.' But in real life a lot of folks have had it de-installed by bad teaching, negative experience etc.

So how to keep oral sex in the middle of the normal range without marginalizing the folks who's factory warranty has been violated?

@13- I was thinking the same thing.

Margarita @13: Hmm, it's possible. It may be more likely that GAYBYBI's boyfriend is both bicurious AND gender-questioning. Either one of which seems like it would be a dealbreaker to Mr Gay, though he'll have to decide that for himself. (Curious2 @18, as a bisexual, I would not call GAYBYBI a "bigot" for not wanting to have a bi boyfriend -- especially a bi boyfriend who is keen to act on his opposite-sex desires, either by bringing in a live woman, or with the woman-featured porn, dirty talk and fantasy that he's already brought into their sex life. One can be an ally to the bi community while being 100% gay in private, and wanting one's partner to be as well.)

Poly @19: I think the answer to that question is for the people who don't like to give oral to pair up with people who don't particularly like to receive it.

I salute Ms Fan, and similarly echo the sentiment in the case of bi people who want only partners from their own club as well.

Sadly, am very short on time (was ill this morning and had an hour of computer trouble), but Mr Savage's conclusion about "never knowingly dating" someone ought to be a conversation starter, though it is used as a conversation closer. Hope to go on at greater length later - off to run a social bridge group in an assisted living home.

GAYBYBI's description of his young "bottom boy" makes me wonder whether his hitherto gold star bf has ever topped a man ... and that the fleshlight is the only experience he's had of penetrating something that doesn't have to represent a vagina.

I'm a little perturbed that GBB (short for the LW) seems to be snooping so he knows that his bf has used the fleshlight. I mean ... really?!? Ugh.

OTOH, GBB should understand that a fantasy - even a revealed fantasy - does NOT have to be brought to RL. It seems obvious (to me, anyway) that GBB is GAY and that to have him participate in a MFM with his bf would require him to become functionally BI. [I shudder to think of what woman would agree to a DP in such a scenario.]

These two need to talk for a long time ... to see whether GBB's bf really wants to move in the direction of being actively BI knowing that GBB wouldn't necessarily be a fully-willing participant in a 3-way. If all the bf is interested in is penetration and came up with this convoluted means to accomplish it, wouldn't it be easier just to top a man ... though GBB seems to be too much of a nosy dominant IMO to bend that way.

Dan, I'm confused. [No snickering from the commentariat, pls.]

In your answer to GAYBYBI, you mentioned a MMF 3-way. But that's not how I interpreted "the two of us fucking a woman together". Was there anything else in the letter to indicate MMF?

Don't mind me. I'm having reading fail. MMF was mentioned in GBB's letter. In which case, it's still up to them to talk about whether they're going to make this a real thing ... and whether GBB can handle having a BI bf who acts out his desires occasionally ... in front of GBB.

@13/Lost Margarita: The scenario you describe is fairly complex, and beyond the typical range of situations easily discussed here without more insight. While it is an interesting possibility, I think GAYBYBI is better off taking his boyfriend’s fantasy at face value.

@21/BiDanFan: I’m less sympathetic to GAYBYBI because he doesn’t suggest any qualms about his boyfriend having sex with someone else, just the gender of that potential sex partner. If GAYBYBI would allow his boyfriend to have sex with another man, but not a woman, it suggests to me that he isn’t actually accepting of bisexuality.

That said, I would agree that demanding or expecting GAYBYBI to participate in an MMF threesome is unreasonable.

"do you have to stand there?" is an interesting phrase. That's the kind of thing that someone usually says to an oblivious oaf. You know those people that get off a bus or walk into a building........ and just stop? They have no regard for the people behind them and then act all offended when someone tells them to move.

Letter writers partner could be an asshole, but that particular phrase suggests the letter writer has no regard for shared spaces and the people that occupy them.

Also, why are you all extrapolating so much into the gender identity of the bi boyfriend? Isn't it much more likely he's just a bi guy?

SublimeAfterglow @26 -- I think Lost Margarita @13 and BadBreathMommy @20 are on target. The fact that he asked GAYBYBI to step outside his comfort zone and call his ass a "pussy," and "really gets off" from that language suggests gender issues more than (or in addition to) sexuality issues.

Autogynephilia is a controversial theory, but: "It is likely that all types of transsexuals do have occasional sexual fantasies about being their target sex. What this means remains unclear and is a promising area for future research."

See http://www.genderpsychology.org/autogynephilia/

Clarifying my use of pronouns @28 -- the bf asks GAYBYBI to call the bf's ass a pussy while GAYBYBI is presumably fucking it (see "my beautiful bottom boy").

dirtygerty@27 -- If bf wanted to refer to GAYBYBI's ass as a pussy, that would seem more like fantasizing bf was fucking a woman. Instead bf is apparently fantasizing about being a woman, and being fucked as a woman.

@13,
Yes, it's a thing among bi (and especially bi-curious straight-ish) cis men. Many, especially those interested in submission, equate submission or just bottoming as something women do, and by extension going there must mean taking on some feminine traits or language. How wrapped up in misogyny this is is debatable, but it's definitely there. I suppose many simply lack the vocabulary, or they fall into the locker room banter they have been exposed to.
Even some gay men (mostly older, definitely effeminate) will call it a pussy. But my not at all humble opinion on this is that in this age, no self-respecting gay man would use the word pussy.

I don't see any gender identity issues. I see a gay bottom who is bi-curious and is feeling out the idea of topping, thereby asserting some masculinity [in his mind, not mine]. Doing a MMF with his top partner could be a way to tap into his partner's topness/masculinity. It doesn't seem entirely healthy, but if the interest is there, why not explore it?

So far as GAYBYBI is concerned, why not open your relationship to let your partner discover what works for him. Your choices are to see where it goes, risking losing him, or dumping him before any drama you can't handle. After the time already invested, why not invest some more.

@6: A john might very well be pressured into seeing a prostitute (e.g. well-meaning to bullying friends/relatives who buy a hooker for a young man, who puts on a brave face for the boys to avoid unflattering questions about his masculinity). And it's fairly easy to ensure a prostitute is not being forced by negotiating with the prostitute directly, one on one, instead of with some intermediary.

All this pro sex worker, anti client attitude seems to stem from some rather sexist assumptions about the poor girls' ability to speak for themselves. Bollocks to that.

I think I’ve shared it here before, yet happy to do so again: I was involved with sex workers in the not-so-distance past and everything went fine. While it required a short learning curve as to where and who, I could figure out the independent ones and discuss in advance what it is I’m looking for. They could agree or not, and in one case also passed me to someone they thought will be a better fit.
Clients were required to provide their legal name for screening and safety reasons, while providers maintained their anonymity.
I was respectful, considerate, safe, and tipped in advance.

This happened few years ago, admittedly when I was already fairly experienced, yet on an exploration journey and trying to figure out what works and how to better implement the action with ordinary kinky-or-not dates.
While I never disclosed any of it to the kids I did tell some selected friends who had no issues with it. It resulted in them telling me they know another person in a similar situation, and someone telling me how they almost became a provider themselves.

I support legalization whole heartedly. If done right it will dramatically reduce trafficking and coercion. Employees will be screened for documentation, will have the right to unionize and access to health care.
Clients enter the “certified facility” will have to show a valid ID, just like we do now in marijuana shops here in Washington State. Providers have a right to privacy and will only go by their stage name.

Griz@12 ~ “Thank you everyone commenting so far in this week's Savage Love. I am afraid I don't have anything to add, so I'll try again later.”

Ditto. Just not inspired by this current crop of letters for some reason. Maybe it’s Memorial Day hangover.

@21 BiDanFan
I didn't call the bigot a bigot for the reasons you mentioned, I called him a bigot because he characterized his BF's (newly discovered) identity as "strange fascination...bizarre" (I thought quoting his saying it was "bizarre" as my very first word would amply defend my use of the word bigot to indicate he's more than just afraid (and as you said, at least somewhat justifiably self-interested), but prejudiced (when the later is true I think homophobic 'praises with too-faint damning').

I also find myself irritated at this GAYBYBY for freaking out that his "bottom boy" might want to put his own dick in something (horrors!) /female/!

Because precisely like @26 SublimeAfterglow, "I’m less sympathetic to GAYBYBI because he doesn’t suggest any qualms about his boyfriend having sex with someone else, just the gender of that potential sex partner. If GAYBYBI would allow his boyfriend to have sex with another man, but not a woman, it suggests to me that he isn’t actually accepting of bisexuality." And hey, as SA then alludes to, our bigot simply said he found it hot, he did NOT "demand...or expect...GAYBYBI to participate in an MMF threesome".

In short, he's welcome to do his bi BF the favor of being free of him since (quoting Dan) "he deserves better" (than a biphobic BF); as BiDanFan notes THAT is his (un-heroic) right. But I am not at home with this bigot characterizing his BF's bi identity as "strange fascination...bizarre", and I don't think you should be either. Bigotry is even worse than erasure.

"Do you have to stand there?" is sometimes also said by someone carrying a heavy or awkward item, and the other party is standing in the pathway.

Were this the beginning of the relationship, sure. Using "strange" and "weird" as adjectives to describe not bisexual interest in general but conduct in a partner of five years that is completely out of character didn't strike me as the mouth-foaming of a raving bigot. While "bizarre" seems rather strong, that described a fantasy which involved LW's conduct as well. Had any boyfriend of mine of even one year's standing ever mentioned finding the idea of any sort of sexual interaction involving both myself and any woman to be at all appealing, I'd call it more than "bizarre," perhaps opting for "appalling" (as a conqueror of enforced conversion therapy). And it would have put me off the idea of sex for at least a week.

Of course LW could also have undesirable attitudes about bisexuality in general, but here my instinct is for correlation rather than causation.

The letter reminds me of the novels of Gordon Merrick. Perhaps it's the strict adherence to roles, the operative word of the letter being "bottom". The twist is that usually it's Merrick's tops who had identity issues and relations with women. In One for the Gods, the second book of his Charlie-and-Peter trilogy, when bottom Peter after some years together strayed with a young Frenchman, Charlie restored calm between them by switching their roles and convincing Peter to start having women. In the third novel, when it appeared there was some risk that Peter might actually fall for a woman, Charlie reasserted himself as top. Here, I imagine the Merrick solution would be to have BF top another man, and go from there.

Further thoughts on "knowingly dating" in the morning.

Helenka @23: Good point about GBB having possibly assigned his young lover to an "exclusively bottom" role, in which he's frustrated to not get a chance to top. However, if Mr GBB were indeed gay, I think he'd be asking about bringing in another man to bottom to both of them. It is possible that if Mr GBB is bi but wants to remain monogamous, GBB could give his boyfriend some of what he's missing by bottoming (ie playing a "female" role) for him.

Sublime @26: There's no mention of whether this couple is monogamous. The letter seemed to read as if they were. (If they weren't, I think Mr GBB would solve his problem by sleeping with a woman on his own; the fact that he's suggested an MMF implies to me that their relationship isn't open to other people.) So I'd give Mr GBB some credit for his instinct being to satisfy his curiosity within the rules of his relationship rather than cheating or asking for a hall pass. He may mistakenly believe that "everyone's a little bit bi" and that GBB would find this a fun adventure, too.

Re "call my ass a pussy" -- wanting to sexually role-play the other gender does not make one trans. Ask me and my strap-on collection. It could be a gender identity thing; it could be a kink; it could just be a way for Mr GBB to mentally insert some heterosexuality into the gay sex he's having. Only Mr GBB knows, and possibly not even him, as he may find these desires just as confusing as GBB does.

Xiao @31: "Bollocks" to the fact that trafficking does happen? That women who are victims of abuse or drug addicts are exploited? [Expletives redacted.] Not every sex worker is willing, and few unwilling sex workers feel they are in the position to ask johns -- whom they see as complicit in their exploitation -- to help get them out of their situation. Get real.

Curious2 @34: Sorry, but if someone told you they were 100% gay then five years later started dropping all sorts of hetero hints, it might indeed seem "bizarre." A single word does not a bigot make. And GBB does not deem his boyfriend's "identity" bizarre because Mr GBB * does not identify as bi. *

Can no one answer my question about whether gay men typically use Fleshlights? Bueller?

I don't see how it's a serious problem LW1. At least your partner has told you of his desires rather than acting on them behind your back.
I won't buy into the trans issue, out of my ignorance re signs, and suggest you stop treating your partner as some sort of pet and work this out with him. He is disclosing a part of himself he's hidden or only realised, whatever, he's sharing with you. And all you can think about is your loss.
Do you love him, then work it out with him. You don't have to join any sexual situation he has with a woman, if you don't want to. And if it's too hard for you to stay with a man who wants sexual experiences with women, tell him that. You guys can work this out, lots of women get thrown into the sudden male partner bi pool, and most of them don't know about it before he's dived.

You're right
@37 BiDanFan & @36 vennominon
perhaps GAYBYBI isn't a bigot, perhaps he's simply a very poor/dysfunctional asshole communicator who wrote:

"My boyfriend of five years has developed a strange fascination."
instead of something like
"My boyfriend of five years has developed INTERESTS THAT I'M EXTREMELY SURPRIZED BY."
and
"This really seems bizarre!"
instead of something like
"I'M ALSO EXTREMELY SURPRIZED BY this!"

I'm sorry, GAYBYBI, for saying you're a bigot if you're only an asshole.

vab251@30

"Yes, it's a thing among bi (and especially bi-curious straight-ish) cis men"
"Even some gay men (mostly older, definitely effeminate) will call it a pussy"

Interesting. Of course, neither of those types seem to fit the description of GBB's boyfriend, who is neither straight-ish ('gold star' gay bottom, five year relationship with a man) nor older (younger man to his 38 yo partner - I would guess 30ish or younger). He could be effeminate, of course, but then again, where exactly is the line between an 'effeminate' cis man and a feminine-of-centre non-binary or trans person?

I dunno, I'm not convinced. The more I think about it, the less likely it seems that this is a simple case of a young bi guy in a gay man's closet. Though it could be a combination of bisexuality AND gender identity issues, like BiDanFan said - we just don't have enough information.

All I'm saying is, it may be useful to bear this possibility in mind if and when GBB decides to have "the talk" with his boyfriend. Instead of starting from the assumption that the BF is definitely "bi, bicurious, or so homoflexible he could tour with Cirque du Soleil", and what that means for the future of their relationship, I think it would be more useful to start with some open-ended questions about his sexual AND gender identity. Put aside the issue of "how we can handle it" for a moment, and just try to find out what exactly "it" is. Ask about the fantasies, and what happens in them. Ask if the BF is still happy with himself, and with their relationship as it is. Ask if there's been a shift recently, admit to feeling confused by the porn, by the fem-centric fantasies. Try to frame this discussion in a non-judgemental, trying-to-understand-what's-going-on way, rather than as an assumption-heavy ultimatum ("Are you bisexual? I'm not cool with it."). Then take some time to process the outcome of that discussion, gather your thoughts, and go from there.

Ms Fan - I am rather pleased to report that I have no clear idea of what a Fleshlight is.

curious2 @39: Or perhaps he's just shocked to learn that his partner of five years isn't who he said he was. Slapping him for not choosing the words you would have chosen isn't going to help.

Me too Venn. @41.

Brodiesplaining: (concerning the first - and last - occasion on which the Brodie set witnessed the dancing of Pavlova, and Eunice was absent, on account of something she described as "a social")

"'It's in the church hall, Miss Brodie.'
'The word "social" is an adjective and you are using it as a noun,' said Miss Brodie, who always made difficulties over words when she scented heresy."

The one clear point in LW's defence is that he's already in his Discomfort Zone for the benefit of his partner's arousal. That may be insufficient for official LVBT approval, but it's something.

@42 BiDanFan
"perhaps he's just shocked to learn that his partner of five years isn't who he said he was"
Yes, that would have been another healthy way to communicate where he was coming from. But the words he chose were, at best, poor communication. I bet he'd agree with this too now that it's been pointed out.

p.s.
Allow me to please try to help make my point using the ol' trick of flipping the genders/orientations.

Let's say the LW were a straight female writing about her husband in a monogomous marriage. Let's say the wife learns that her husband also wants to have sex with men. Granting her self interest and her surprise, wouldn't we also find it objectionable for her to call what she's learned about her husband's newly revealed true sexual orientation "a strange fascination...", and to say about his interest in sharing it with her that "This really seems bizarre!"? Using such loaded words is both poor communication, and shitty.

(I can't help noting that flipping the genders/orientations loses the LW's selfish reaction to the LW's "bottom boy" wanting to put /his/ dick in something.)

Venn, Lava
Fleshlight is a penis masturbation device resembling a flashlight, with an opening for a penis and a grip to move the device back and forth.
There is also a similar version that opens all the way, so insertion is not mandatory and one can work their way up as they squeeze and turn. This version is also much easier to clean.
At work right now so can't search for pictures and links.

Hey Grizelda, how you doing?
I got a copy (yes, cd) of the young man who played the cello at Meagan and Harry's wedding. Not usually one for classical, he does do Bab Marley and Leonard Cohen as well. Beautiful musician and still a teenager.

Venn, every person in an ongoing committed sexual intimacy has got to cope with being pushed out of their comfort zone. From hearing your partner is pregnant to they are feeling bi interested, etc. If you want to stay in charge of where you take comfort, best not to take a partner.
And yes, I guess for "Golden Star" gay men, it's a gross insult on top of being pushed out of their comfort zone.
The letter writer hasn't asked why this now. It may just be a visual let's do a threesome fantasy which his partner enjoys, oh the horror, and never acts on. Nobody knows where this is going.
The LW needs to get over himself, and relax.

These people came to mind when reading the first letter. One is clearly bi and one gay, and the woman and the gay man basically share the third guy.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/fabulous/4954593/gay-couple-who-added-a-girlfriend-to-their-relationship-say-thruple-sex-is-the-best-theyve-ever-had/

CMD, thanks for that. Interesting.

@BiDanFan: I've never used a Fleshlight, had a partner break one out, or seen one in any store catering primarily to gay men. A person might see an occasional reference to (or picture of) one on a hookup site.

Percentagewise, I'd say Fleshlight penetration among gay men is in the low single digits.

@28. Erica. 'Sexual fantasies about being their target sex'? Well, if the LW's partner is bigendered or has a female-gendered identification, he wants to have sex (fantasises about having sex) with himself in the role of the woman. These won't be occasional fantasies, either; they'll be broadly how he imagines having sex. This is not at all the same as having sexual fantasies about women (for a trans woman / bigendered gay man). I would be an example of this 'gender style', this kind of person; and in feeling that I am effeminated in being fucked, I don't at all fetishize my (supposed or imagined) femininity. The idea of frilly underwear, for instance, or evidently sexualized forms of dress-up, leave me cold. The look of femininity would be something I have to attain with a lot of effort--sometimes daunting or offputting.

This understanding of myself and my anatomy of female is in no way as crude as thinking my ass is a pussy. At a certain level, yes, I do think my prostate is a female organ. I didn't myself read Mr GAYBIBY as emergently bigendered, but as emergently bisexual.

Ms Lava - You are not differentiating between being out-of-one's-comfort-zone and in-one's-DIScomfort-zone. LW is doing something he clearly finds disagreeable, not just something he doesn't find comfortable.

Ms Callie - I'm reminded of some of the characters of the late David Rees, largely taken from real life. That sort of situation worked out well for 2/3 of those involved, just not the gay.

@36. Venn. The Merrick solution would seem to be predicated on Mr GAYBIBY not getting OS sex. No--let him have sex with a woman if that's what he wants.

Venn, Then he needs to stop watching the porn and say to his partner not to mention any of this ever again.
The LWs discomfort is coming from visuals, a few words said.. nothing has happened. It's a fantasy at the moment.

I think it’s pretty obvious that GAYBIBY’s BF is at least somewhat bi. It’s not uncommon for bi’s to experience variations in their sexual orientation over time. Perhaps GAYBIBY’s BF’s hetero desires are acting up.

A Fleshlight is essentially a simulated vagina. Gay men may sometimes watch straight porn, but few are going to enjoy girl-girl stuff. It sure sounds the BF is craving sex with women, even if he has never experienced it.

I think GAYBIBY will have to have a frank conversation with the BF about his desires. Will he be content with just porn and fantasy, or will he want to explore actual sex with women? I’m
not sure how the BF would explore his hetero desires — would any women be interested in a man in a M/M relationship?

The BF being a bottom seems irrelevant. Plenty of bi guys are bottoms with men. There are plenty of exclusively gay tops.

I also think that GAYBIBY’s BF’s “pussy” talk sounds more like he eroticizes femininity, in a way that’s reminiscent of the behavior of some straight and bi crossdressers — women turn him on and it turns him on to “feel like a woman.” It may also be that he finds M/F sex hot, whether he’s being the M or the F. Unless there’s a lot more to this story, I doubt the BF has more serious gender issues.

Curious2 @45: In my experience, victims of tone policing are rarely grateful to be corrected. (Case in point...)

"This week, I discovered he had hidden a Fleshlight from me. I could tell he had used it."

The boyfriend, whether bi or trans, should dump GAYBIBY for invasion of privacy and overall weirdness.

Ms Lava - I was referring to LW's discomfort with referring to BF's male anatomy in female-coded terms for BF's arousal. That's more than I'd be able to do if my arousal had anything to do with the desired outcome.

M?? Harriet - You miss the point. In the novel, the solution to a bottom's wanting to top another man, which displeased his top, was to start him on women. As here the top is displeased with his bottom's wanting to top women (even worse, with him), clearly the Merrick solution is to have him top other men, though whether alone or together could be debated. But I'm sure the LVBT community will agree with you.

Mr Lander - The theory would be that, if BF has exclusively functioned as a bottom, he may be interpreting a desire to top as a desire for women because he may think he couldn't top men.

As for the sort of woman who'd be interested in BF, the problem could be that he'd attract the wrong sort of woman, the kind who'd take someone's being in an MM relationship as a challenge to see if she could break them up.

Venn —

I think if the BF wanted to top GBB, he would express a desire to top him. He isn’t. He is expressing a desire to have sex with women.

I think almost no women would be seeking to break up their relationship. I think the challenge would be to find a woman willing to sleep with a hetero virgin who is in a primary relationship.

Viking @63: Yes. "Two queer men" might be more tempting to more women than "help a bicurious gay man with a disapproving boyfriend discover his sexuality." Perhaps that's why Mr GBB suggested the threesome.
But then there are people for whom "be my first [_]" is a tempting prospect. "Turn me bi" isn't the same as "and steal me from my boyfriend." I think GBB has more to fear from "will HE decide he prefers women" than from "will this particular woman try to break us up."

@63 Agreed. It's possible that Mr GBB is entering a bi-cycle that is more hetero. And as such, it's perfectly possible that he'll decide that he currently prefers sex with women to sex with men. I have heard of gay men who trended bi and had relationships with women later in life.

@58 BiDanFan
LOL, I'd never heard of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_policing
Thank goodness people who say shitty things now have that stupid defense.

Own goal to curious2 @66. (Hello, YOU were policing GBB's tone. Missed that?)

And congrats in advance to this week's lucky number winner...

BDF @67
"Own goal" is likely to be a mystery to most USAians.

GAYBYBI, good lord, get a grip. I'm a Kinsey 6 or 5.9, my husband is more bi than I am (Kinsey 5 territory, or so we think), and the sky did not fall down. He never suddenly NEEDED to sleep with women, he never cheated on me with anyone of any sex/gender, neither of us lost our gold stars or whatever, and both of us are still pretty much gay. Hell, when we do things with thirds, I'm the one who ends up topping other guys and cuckolding him, not vice versa. Your boyfriend sounds like he's probably a Kinsey 4 or so. You haven't gotten straight cooties on your dick, don't worry.

Don't think I don't understand why you feel put off. We've all known an example or five of the "I'm just here for fun, this isn't serious" guys, and believe me, I get the aversion to closet cases, probably more than most. Probably more than I even should, truth be told. I even get wanting the communal element of connection with other gay men, and the solid mental ground that provides. With that said, your boyfriend is only closeted about being bi, he's not closeted about his feelings for you (clearly). You need to mentally start saying to yourself that he's bi, because let's face it, he's not a Kinsey 6. Sorry.

Until and unless your boyfriend does something that crosses some other line, though, he hasn't done anything to you to merit aversion. If you really don't want to be with bi guys, you don't have to be, that's your choice, and no amount of finger-wagging will fix that. But what might help you get used to it is... Well, dating a bi guy. If calling him homoflexible helps, do it, but don't piss away a good thing just because your boyfriend wants to do something with you that you can say no to. You are perfectly free not to spitroast a woman with him.

*I primarily like boys who are between twinkish and very girly, and have slept with someone who straddled the trans line very hard, though she swore up and down that what we did was gay, and she was very early in transitioning. You do the math. For the record, calling an ass a pussy isn't proof someone is bi, nor is liking guys who happen to be girly.

Plus, this could be a prime opportunity for orientation play. GAYBYBI, ever wanted to revenge-plow a 'straight' guy? Is your boyfriend into roleplaying? Turn this lemon into lemonade.

@33 Omnipotent Comment God, DonnyKlicious: Agreed. I couldn't get into this week's letters for some reason, either. I'll go with the Memorial Day hangover, though. Cheers and another "aaack-ooop"!
@47 CMDwannabe: Thank you for the enlightenment on fleshlights. I am amazed at modern technology--what will they think up next?
@48 LavaGirl: Wonderful to hear back from you. How is your winter in Queensland (what, an hour north of Brisbane)? My sweet little love beetle and I are happily beach buns once more, and music continues to enrich our lives. We need it now more than ever.
@69 Lionface: Congratulations on hitting this week's Lucky Number! May an abundance of riches flow upon you like you've never before seen.

@71 Beach buns? hee hee--I meant beach bums. Geez---why is it my worst typos occur when I haven't been drinking?

To be fair, I don't think many straight guys have Fleshlights either. Gadget-enhanced masturbation seems overwhelmingly a female pursuit.

CMD @68: See, I have picked up some football parlance. Curious2 can google it if he cares to learn another new vocabulary phrase.

Lionface @69: Congrats on the magic number and thank you for a very well said post.

Aunt Zelda- Fleshlights have been around for years. The reason we don't hear about them is because discussing men's masturbation devices is a taboo/double standard, much like identifying as a bi man in the swinging community as we learned here recently.
This is one of the reasons penis havers are still stuck with lousy sex toys like fleshlight.

It's cold in the mornings and evenings Grizelda and the days warm and glorious. Love winter here. Enjoy your beach adventures.
I'll second Fans thank you lionface, good instructive comment.
Then flashlights are for men to use, what do women do with them.

*fleshlights: great word.

VikingLander @65 "It's possible that Mr GBB is entering a bi-cycle that is more hetero....it's perfectly possible that he'll decide that he currently prefers sex with women to sex with men."

Yes. It's also possible that (consciously or not) he wants to get out of this current relationship and shifting orientation is a step in that direction. (It's not you, it's me, honey. I'm just going into a hetero phase, it's nothing personal.)

@74 CMDwannabe: Thank you for the further clarification on fleshlights. So they have been around a while, like cock rings. The term fleshlight is new to me, and the very first time I've ever heard of them. I agree with BiDanFan (@73): they sound more like a female pursuit, re: gadget-enhanced masturbation.
@75 LavaGirl: I'm glad to hear you've still got wonderful beach weather during the daytime. That sounds about right--cool in the evenings and early morning, and lovely during the day. Not too chilly yet to hit the beach.

Griz@72 ~ Beach buns are the best reason to go to the beach. Heartfelt appreciation to the inventor of the thong bikini.

@79 Omnipotent Comment God DonnyKlicious: I don't know about thong bikinis (the best I can do is a b/w tankini with leopard spots), but my beloved and I sure are enjoying the beach bun season! Another heartfelt "aack-oop" to you and Mr. Bill.
XO,
Griz

Wahooooo!! Another great local theatric rehearsal tonight, and a bye night tomorrow--time for late night movies this witching hour.

Thong underwear is great because it stops men like Hunter from fueling their imaginations on one's VPL-compromised arse. So a necessary evil with certain tight skirts/pants. Otherwise they are uncomfortable, and as a fellow gynephile, do not tend to show most bums in their most favourable light. A bum that looks good in a thong would look good in anything. Though I suppose they're the only way to get an even tan, so more power to the lucky cellulite-free among us.

@66 BiDanFan "YOU were policing GBB's tone. Missed that?"
No I wasn't, no I didn't. Per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_policing "attempts to detract from the validity of a statement by attacking the tone in which it was presented rather than the message itself."

(Rather than make a statement, GBB asked a question.) It's true I didn't answer his question, and as a commenter I don't see I was under any obligation to. It in no way distracts or detracts from the ability of others to answer GBB's question for me to present a tangential observation that GBB used unhealthily objectionable language.

(And isn't this a place where bigotry toward the sexual is always on topic?)

Other commenters are obviously free to (and they mostly have I assume with ease) remained focused upon GBB's question itself. BiDanFan, YOUR failure to see/agree that GBB used objectionable language, and your defensiveness around GBB's shitty statements, invites us to wonder quite a bit about YOU. (And to be pretty surprised; I've not been here a long time, but I haven't seen you behave like this before.)

oops "toward the sexual" should be something like "toward the sexual behaviour of others"

Curious2 @84: Putting words into another person's mouth is literally tone policing. You said LW's tone made him sound like a bigot. Don't make this about me, lol. Nothing to wonder about, I'm a person who tries to see multiple sides of things and cuts people slack when they've obviously just discovered something that is a shock to them. It's called empathy, you should try it sometime.

If you haven't seen me calling out other commenters for being jerks, then no, you HAVEN'T been here a long time! Haha.

@86 BiDanFan
Do you even know what "Putting words into another person's mouth" means? I only commented on the words GBB actuallysaid*. Perhaps this exchange has become pointless.

Curious @88: Were you not putting words into GBB's mouth in your comment @39, rephrasing his letter so as to make it less bigoted sounding (to you)?

But at last we agree on one thing: this exchange is pointless. Your opinion is that the words GBB chose make him appear to be a bigot. My opinion is that they don't. There's no way of confirming either of our opinions without a longer conversation with GBB himself, which is impossible, so let's stop boring the rest of the commenters and enjoy the rest of our weekends, eh?

Well. Not even a repeat from over ten yrs ago letter for the weekend on slog.
I did find the LW's words exposed some problem re acceptance of women, Fan.
I get it, he's gay and his partner is showing interest in viewing hetro porn and thinking about sex with women, I can see how it would be a shock, this LW makes it sound like a crime.
Perhaps the partner doesn't want to be a bottom anymore, wants more versaltility in his life, wants, as a poster above says, to put his dick in something/ the flesh light and has some attraction for sex with a woman. Or as Erica suggested, the guy wants out of the relationship.

It is rude, LW2, 'do you have to stand there', its something an irate mother would say to a child standing in the middle of a room, while she vacuums it.

LW3, this man lied to you by answering your add, why would you respond to him again? Kind of you to tend his needs while he did nothing for yours. Another rude person. And another presenting straight guy trying out a bit of gay loving.
Find a man who wants to enjoy you sexually LW, not some lazy lying one.

Sex work needs to be legalised and the workers protected.

There seems to be a lot more questions coming thru from gay men. Good to see.

I hope you don't hold back on letters from lesbians, Dan, because of a few complaints.
If a lesbian writes to you, it is you she is asking advice from. And lesbians can jump on the thread to offer an insiders take.

@61. Venn. But there isn't any consistent mapping of the top/bottom binary onto either the male/female binary or the gay/straight binary. It is prejudicial, potentially, to suppose that their might be--e.g. that gay male bottoms are 'women', made into women or 'like women'. Or that it is the 'male position', culturally, to top, with the implication that female tops in lesbian relationships are assuming a male role, or, in straight relationships, agreeing to a symbolic form of gender reassignment.

Obviously if there's a novel, I've missed the point--the practical exigencies and ingenuity of a character in a novel are not a model for our politics, and I'm just being too strait-laced about it.

@64. Bi. Agreed. I do not see a cohort of straight female 'homo snatchers' in quite the way that Venn would seem to. Are there women like this? Don't know; but he makes them sound quite mischievous. Liberal straight women and gay men are, rather, constituents of the only broad enough political alliance needed at the present moment. It can't be an alliance only wrt to the politics of party, either--it has to be a group of people who can imagine each other's lives with a modicum of respect and sympathy.

From what I recall of those who stuck with exclusive roles, they often did not want to test out interest in the opposite role with their established partners. It made a certain sort of sense

While I'd believe Ms Fan if she were to claim never feeling any little thrill after a threesome with a male couple when one half of the couple later wanted to dump his partner for her, it would be irresistible to many other women who enjoy boinking SS men.

I rather like the direction Ms Erica is going. It reminds me of Dead Man's Folly, in which Mrs Oliver was induced to change the location of a clue from point A to point B by having people first ask her to change it to point C, which would have been silly. After vehemently rejecting the request for C, she felt she didn't want to be too difficult when B was basically as good as A.

M?? Harriet - It's largely a power thing; you could consider it a variation on how it's easier for a straight man in a monogamous relationship to cheat than it is for a straight man in an open relationship to find female partners after they know he has a permission slip. There are all kinds of similar things in various genders and orientations.

@89 BiDanFan
"Curious @88: Were you not putting words into GBB's mouth in your comment @39, rephrasing his letter so as to make it less bigoted sounding (to you)?"

(I can see how it might look like it, but the deal with idioms is that they are "a group of words established by usage as having a meaning not deducible from those of the individual words"
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/idiom
; in this case:)

The idiom "putting words into someone's mouth" does not mean suggesting words they could have said (in our current example, to be less derogatory).

It's claiming they meant or said something they didnot* say.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/put-words-in-someone-s-mouth

Let's just agree to disagree. Apologies to all for the b/w used here.

@100 curious2: Congratulations on hitting the Hunsky Mark! May good fortune smile upon you.

Harriet @97: The answer to "are there women/men/people like this?" is always "yes," whatever "this" is. But I think the numbers are small. "Turning a gay man straight" does not confer a sense of masculine power onto a woman the way the concept of "turning a lesbian straight" does for the man who attempts that. When a woman says, "I'm a lesbian," that increases her attractiveness to a very large number of straight men in a way that saying "I'm a gay man" simply does not for most straight women. Are there straight women out there who fetishise gay men? Sure there are, I've met at least one. Would her dream come true be to seduce a gay man and steal him from his boyfriend? Sharing him with his boyfriend would have been even better. So yes, I think you would get more women wanting to join the gay male couple (a la Sense8) than steal one of its members and keep him monogamously for herself. If you're into SS men (I've now started to answer Venn @98's question), wouldn't regular MMF threesomes be so much better than fucking one guy who used to identify as gay? So there's no incentive, and no achievement, in breaking up the couple.