Savage Love

Differences

Comments

1

HEAL, I'm speaking as a mentally ill person. I've got bipolar disorder and that can cause some really fucking intense and tiring symptoms, and not just for the person with the diagnosis. I got medication and counselling because I knew that I was stressing and exhausting the people I care about. Medication and counselling aren't 100% effective. I still have depressive episodes and manic episodes -- and I IMMEDIATELY seek help for those because healing is my business. Speaking from that point of view: take a break. Do self-care. You aren't helping her by exhausting yourself. You aren't helping her by allowing her to continue not taking care of herself. You may have anxiety thinking that taking a step back will prove her fear that you don't want to be with her. Wanting to be with her and being able to be with her are two different things.

2

Re-using the same questions a lot lately :/

3

IJWTS I love Dan's replies to HEAL (and GAGGING), can't think of anything to add.

I'll skip HOMO since we've already had at him at https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2018/07/25/29721772/his-gay-boyfriend-is-terrible-at-being-gay/comments

4

@1 bearish: Bless you, and thank you for sharing your story, and offering wonderful advice for HEAL in coping with his girlfriend's mental health issues.
HEAL, I am a Gulf War veteran dealing with military PTSD issues. I have distanced myself from my older sisters because dealing with them, for me, is exhausting. Living in separate counties helps. Sometimes you've got to help yourself first before you can help others. I hope everything works out for you and your girlfriend. Good luck.

5

Mu only question for GAGGING is why HASN'T her very sexy, uncircumcised German boyfriend been using soap when bathing? That should be a given.

6

You’re supposed to wash with soap? Weird. Learn something new every day, I guess

7

LW2:
There are people with mental illnesses. There are people who are bound by ethics and/or love or just flat out friendliness/interest/sexual desire to struggle through (often rewarding) relationships with people with mental illnesses. You are not required to be that person unless you want to be and feel that it is worthwhile for you. I'd advice this. First, consider whether or not you find it satisfying to be the support role for your partner. Don't worry for a moment about your partner's point of view, and honestly consider how you feel and what you want. It does not make you a bad person if you decide this isn't what you want to do. Also consider whether or not you are even capable of providing the things your partner needs- not everyone is- being in a relationship with someone with major anxiety or depression does require a particular skill set. Second, step back from talking about your partner seeking help for just a moment, and YOU should seek help- though probably not professionally unless you just have an amazing schedule and insurance plan where you can casually do this. The fact that you are writing for advice here means you are already considering that you need help- an outsider's perspective. I suggest you also find an insider's perspective- do you have a friend / trusted family member who will listen to what you say to help you determine if you want to put yourself in the situation of being your partner's support? Someone who knows and loves you might help you clarify what you are putting into this and what you are getting out of it. AFTER you figure this stuff out about yourself and your own desires and capabilities, THEN you should (third) consider your partner- if you choose to leave, do they have a support network without you? If not how can you help? Is therapy the right thing for them, and can you help them access it? Can you accept them as they are- because regardless of their or your intentions, most relationships based on the promise of future change don't work out that way. Good luck.

LW3:
Dan is flat out wrong here. While it is true that an uncircumcised man can wash with soap (and probably should) it is not true that this will necessarily take care of the smell. If your man washes regularly with water (and yes by all means tell him to use soap also) and yet he still smells even when clean and freshly from the shower, then it is more likely he has a minor (since he doesn't feel discomfort) yeast infection or something similar- and washing with soap won't help that. If the smell is persistent even after washing with water regularly, your bf needs to see a doc.

8

I seriously do not understand how women like GAGGING can continue to give blow jobs and have PIV sex with a man whose cock is so teaming with an overgrowth of bacteria that she is actually nauseous when having sex. Isn’t “don’t stick something utterly rancid in your mouth or vagina” common sense?

I have trouble imagining any man is otherwise so amazing that a woman could deal with this long enough to need advice about how to proceed. DTMFA.

9

@5 because many soaps can dry out and irritate the foreskin, and that will only make matters worse compared to just washing with water.

10

Additional tips for the uncircumcised:
- pull foreskin back when pissing (this seems self-evident to me, but you never know).
- use toilet paper to remove the last few drops of piss. Shaking it usually isn't enough.

11

Oh, HEAL. My ex-husband similarly (though not to as great an extent) suffered with abandonment issues. Whether they were genuine or not, his "You're going to leave me" episodes were nothing more than emotional blackmail. She's manipulating you into staying with you, no matter how much pain she puts you through, because breaking up with her would prove that she was right about your not loving her. This "endless reassurance" is a trap she's caught you in. It's not fair to you. If she were seeking help and still had the occasional episode, that would be different. HEAL, please tell her you do want to be with her but you can't unless she gets treatment. Good luck to you.

Sublime @8: Who said GAGGING is giving her boyfriend blowjobs? I hope she isn't. If she is, she needs to stop immediately, and also insist on condoms -- maybe scented ones -- when fucking. That might prompt him to improve his hygiene.

12

*into staying with HER, of course.

13

HEAL, it will be hard for you to help your gf alone. She will be inclined to read 'you need therapy' as 'you're not good enough for me as a romantic partner'. Are there friends or family you can rally to your cause? Her family? You should try to create a community of support around your partner and your partnership.

15

@11/BiDanFan: I assume that GAGGING is giving blow jobs to this guy because she is getting her nose close enough to his cock to know that his odor and hygiene issue varies. In any case, I still advocate no blow jobs and no PIV sex, condoms or not. Of course, I’m someone who took it upon themselves to make sure my nails are short and clean, as were my fingers, after I started fingering women as a teen. So I might be more fussy about cleanliness when it comes to sticking my parts into women.

16

"stank-ass dick" says it all...... he's a 1 date guy in my book. Amazing how common sense is lost on some people

17

Oh good Lord, don't let a guy's dick near your mouth if it smells! Tell him the problem and that he's got to fix it, and if he's a decent human being, he'll deal with the issue because yes, he wants sex, but he wants it to be enjoyable for you too.

I sometimes send my (circumcised, if it matters) husband to shower before oral. He showers, soap and all, every morning, but by the end of a humid summer day there's been a lot of sweat. I usually get about as far as "If you want to go wash up I'll..." before he's on his way to the bathroom.

18

Uncircumcised dicks can get pretty smelly I have noticed, being from a country where very few male circumcisions occur. The foreskin needs to drawn all the way back and be thoroughly rinsed out, as well as giving some gentle friction to the head of the dick under the water flow for a couple minutes to get all the stuff off. It's normal to have some white mucusy build up under there but of course it gets stinky after a day or so especially if then also has remnants of pee, semen, female secretions etc mixed in. Maybe he was never taught how to wash it properly or maybe has one of those foreskins that doesn't retract all the way so it's difficult. If that's the case he could still try hard to get plenty of water squirted under there and give it a good sluicing around. I don't think soap is necessarily the answer, although a very mild one could be an idea I guess. It's never easy addressing the personal hygiene issues of an intimate partner and of course it's going to hurt their feelings but sooner is better than later especially if you have already been putting up with it for a while.

19

@4 auntie grizelda, thank you for sharing yours. It's important for folks with mental illness of any sort to be out and open about it to help both those that have MI of some sort and those that love and care for those that do.

20

While I agree with Dan's advice, his PPS gives me pause. It's not exactly the crime of the century for gay people to want to primarily socialize with themselves. If a straight guy made the observation that he didn't have many gay friends, that wouldn't exactly be homophobic. The LW's tone needs a lot of work, and he shouldn't shame his boyfriend for his friends no matter what the reason may be, that does nothing. Still, that's an issue of shaming his partner, not the central premise of his aesthetic objections to Being surrounded by overt heterosexuality. He isn't under any obligation to want to hang out with straight people, he's only obliged to not be a dick to his partner.

21

As for GAGGING, it obviously isn't as bad as the commenters are making it seem. Plenty of people are into musk and worse, so it's not too far-fetched to imagine that he hasn't been used to it even if he's been dating. Europeans seem a bit more forgiving here, for better or worse. He should wash for her but a lot of commenters here are acting like he has the black plague when really he's just got a regular penis.

22

Jesus, you yanky doodle dandies are so prissy with regard to uncut cock smell! I am gay and european and I love the stink of uncut cock! I also love the smell of sweaty balls. Get over yourselves for god's sake. This guy with the scented cock should ditch the guy or girl, get himself someone who appreciates his cock smell. He sounds awesome!

23

@22 Case in point for what I just said regarding musk. I know plenty of guys who are into plenty more than just scent.

24

Um, not all the posters here are American in the first place, so you guys should get over that. In fact, I think there are four or five posters above who are not American. And while I don't have a dick myself, the majority of the men I've been with have been uncut and I have not noticed a difference in smell. Some people are smelly when they sweat or if they don't wipe properly, but there has been no correlation in my experience between being cut or not and having these problems or not. "Really stinks" is not the same thing as "musky" or "sweaty at the end of the day", and "even after a shower" indicates that it's not about hygeine or wiping. There is a problem- I suspect a medical one. So if you are into the smell of sweaty balls or whatever, fine but it's crazy to expect that everyone is and in this case it's also irrelevant since this is not an issue of the LW not liking the smell of sweat- he stinks even freshly out of a shower. Don't ignore stuff like this, thrush and yeast infections do come and go, you can pass them around, and sometimes they are indicative of wider health problems.

The one uncut dick with which I've had a lifetime of experience is my husband's, and it has never smelled and never had white mucusy build up- at least not in any situation in which it was close enough to my face for me to see. I'm with Sublime on this one, though I don't know that DTMFA is necessary- a change certainly is.

25

As an uncut woman, I doubt that I could maintain an odorless vulva even with soap which is also not recommended for us. If this is her standard, then she might not be compatible with intact guys.

26

So, if anyone was wondering why this guy isn't using soap.. I dunno but I find exposure to soap kills my skin and requires a lot of lotion etc. to get the oil back to normal. If I used soap like they do in commercials, my entire body would be a red cracked rash. That said, I still use an appropriately medicated shampoo and use dr. bronners on my pits and junk because those areas will stank otherwise and the bronners is less damaging than most other soaps. Just water and a light scrub is fine for the most part.

27

Soft @22/Lion @23: But the LW isn't a guy. With the level of hygiene women are expected to perform on themselves, no wonder GAGGING isn't too keen on her boyfriend's junk funk. Perhaps it always will smell "a little." It will smell like a dick -- just like a vagina always will, and is supposed to, smell like a vagina, not a floral meadow. But there's a difference between natural genital musk and unwashed stank. When it "really stinks," she should feel she has a right to ask him to jump in the shower and clean that willy. With some sort of hypoallergenic soap if standard soap irritates him.

28

The reason uncut guys have issues is because of difficulty pulling back foreskin all the way. Not all uncut dicks are alike in this respect, some pull back all the way, some not so much. Remember that he isn't using soap; that tells me he probably likes his own scent in some capacity or else he would be washing it away more vigorously. This is an ongoing issue and he needs to address it for the sake of his relationship, but we should assume he's healthy unless we have reason to suspect otherwise. Smell alone will not cut it as evidence either way.

@24 Nobody is asking anyone to be into anything they dislike. I said many people do like it, not most, not all. Enough to make it understandable that he might have different standards than this girl, though. He should adjust to hers if he wants to keep seeing her, but it's for other people's sake primarily.

I suspect more men are into men's scents than women are, but that's a trend I observe as a gay male, so my sample set is biased.

29

@27 Is there a bit difference other than concentration? I am actually curious because I find that guys, myself included, smell distinctly different depending upon what they've been into recently. This sounds woo-woo and it could be a matter of interpretation but I swear it's the truth. If I'm in a period of thinking more about guys my size and build, more masculine guys, etc, I think my scent changes to match that, or else I interpret things differently than when I'm more thinking about feminine guys, etc. I'm open to the possibility that such a distinction exists, but even if it does, my point stands. I know people who are into stuff that runs the gamut from very light scent to stuff that could be considered pretty hardcore. "Rauch" is their term for it IIRC. If he doesn't want to clean up, maybe he's one of the people into it, but it's more likely he just doesn't know or care.

30

@9 Forky McSpoon: Ever hear of hypoallergenic liquid soap or gel (Thanks, Bi @27? Problem solved! Read comments @8 Sublime Afterglow and @16 woodin if you still disagree.
@14: I served stateside during the Gulf War (1991) between 1989-1993, as an enlisted supply grunt for the Navy SEALs. I was never deployed overseas, never in combat, but honorably served my country nonetheless. War is still hell no matter where you are.
@19 bearish: Thank you, too, for commenting and sharing. You've got to do what you've got to do to stay healthy and at peace. Wishing you and yours all the very best.
@22: You're free to go yank his doodle. Better you than I.

31

Once again, sterling wisdom from Dan to HOMO. Dan's my guru. Two questions though: The guy with the women friends, what has he got against those in the life? A night out with drag queens is like a night out with the girls on steroids. Entertaining and you're always learning shit. More perplexing is the guy with only gay male friends. Baby, what kind of queer is you what with no wimmen friends?

32

Thank you, Dan, for calling out HOMO for sounding like what he likely is (my least favorite kind of person) - a gay misogynist. They do exist, and us Lady Friends of Gay Men can attest to this. Sorry that we're on earth and are capable of bearing children, HOMO. Maybe you should learn to respect women a little more, since one of them pushed your sorry ass out of her vag onto this earth. I don't have children of my own, but I think women who do deserve a modicum of respect. And yes, gay men sometimes parent as well.

It's also really interesting to me that drag queens are an acceptable performance of femininity but an actual woman is offensive. There is still so much work to do. Get it together, men.

33

A one-week-old repeat letter that got 91 comments already; a letter that is depressingly about the futility of trying to be in a relationship with someone who suffers extremely low self-esteem and insecurity; a letter about a foul-smelling penis.

Nothing. I got nothing. And I want to read nothing (more) about any of them.
Catch y'all next week, Commentariat!

34

@33 nocutename: This week's letters are all reruns? Where have I been? They all read new to me.

35

Halfway to Lucky @69! Tick...tick...tick......

37

RE: Gagging When I went to sex-ed class (circa 1964) the nurse taught that circumcision was invented as public -health issue, and did not elaborate. As a young lad with no older brothers I assumed (I was NOT going to ask my very aloof German father) that she meant disease would be spread by an uncircumcised cock. Now it appears that the real issue is simple personal cleanliness and hygiene. Also LOVE Dan's "Stank-ass dick" I love this column!

38

@37 sb53: Ah, 1964--also the year that seat belts were invented (possibly due to the crazy car chase scenes in "It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World"). But how many of us ever used 'em way back when until we finally had to by law?

39

@32 Thank you for sharing that gay misogynists elicit a special ire in you as opposed to just misogynists generally. Do go on, though. As a Female Woman Lady Friend of Gay Men Who Are Totally Homosexual For Other Males™, you are exempt from homophobia. If only he had female friends, then he'd have the same kind of exemption and his letter would be just fine and dandy in the same way your comment is.

40

How many male commenters (besides SoftPower @22) rooting for the unfortunate GAGGING's uncircumcised "Stank-ass dick" guy are pussy-shy breeder boys who won't go near a vagina without a snorkel? Ditch your double standards and bathe your stinky dinks, already! This is the 21st century, not 50 million years B.C.

41

Okay, I've said a mouthful, but I say the damnedest things when my back is up!

42

2" "But nearly every time we go on a date or have sex, it ends in tears, and I have to endlessly reassure her that I do really want to be with her."

Stop engaging on this topic. Each time, say only, "I only spend free time where I want to--I'm here because I want to be here." Repeat if necessary. Tell her you are no longer going to prop up her self esteem. Her need is a black hole that you can never fill, so stop trying.

If you choose instead to simply break up with her, be very clear with her that she is funny, kind, lovely, etc.--but her untreated mental health issues are what's causing you to leave her.

43

@lionface -

You said:
@24 Nobody is asking anyone to be into anything they dislike. I said many people do like it, not most, not all.

But I was responding to @22, (not your post) and this absolutely does sound like someone telling others that they need to get over things they dislike:

"Jesus, you yanky doodle dandies are so prissy with regard to uncut cock smell! I am gay and european and I love the stink of uncut cock! I also love the smell of sweaty balls. Get over yourselves for god's sake. This guy with the scented cock should ditch the guy or girl, get himself someone who appreciates his cock smell. He sounds awesome!"

44

Perfect answer for HEAL, Dan. What a good person you are LW, and when you are telling you gf that you are taking a step back because she needs to take care of her issues with a therapist or find a therapeutic setting as it has become a repeat cycle and it’s destructive for both of you, make it clear you will not seek out other relationships while she does this work on herself, as long as she does it. Your love sounds real, and goid luck to both of you.

45

Don’t tell me there are defenders of skanky cock slime. Yuk. Don’t put that germ infested dick any where near my pussy or mouth.

46

@45 There are defenders of skanky cock slime. I knew this one guy who loved to put it in those terms. Like, he would seriously cum on clothes for months and then wear them. He got into this sort of competition with another guy into it about who could perform the nastiest act with cock filth and old cum. The other guy seriously re-wetted his old nut sock and squeezed the runoff into a cup and drank it, it was astonishing.

@43 I read that as a chastizement for being overly grossed out at the human body rather than a call to suddenly get into filthy dicks, though clearly be is. More power to him.

47

Did I mention the runoff from the sock was green?

48

"no excuse for stank-ass dick" ---> I really want that on a bumper sticker.

49

@45 LavaGirl: Agreed, and I second your "Yuk" and "Don't put that germ infested dick anywhere near my pussy or mouth."
@46: Is the guy's name Donald J. Trump? That I would believe.
@48 Gladys Leeman: I do, too!! Plus a t-shirt!
Dan? "No excuse for a stank-ass dick" should accompany the ITMFA on the current supply of pins and t-shirts. You'd sell a shitload, and I'd proudly wear mine to the next pussyhat rally.

50

@46, Lionface. Did he live? I’m guessing these guys were like fifteen.
‘puppy dog’s tails ‘, see Ricardo, here’s proof.

51

Lionface @39: There is a hypocrisy in gay men's misogyny that is absent in straight men's misogyny. One would think the groups would be allies, both having been oppressed by the patriarchy. The enemy of my enemy, etc. Straight male misogynists nevertheless have to work around their prejudices if they ever want to get laid.

Griz @40: It appears the commenters speaking out in favour of stinky dicks won't go near a vagina at all, as they are not "breeder boys" but gay boys. It appears it's easier to fetishise dick odor when one oneself has a dick.

Lionface @46: I rest my case.

52

I've been sexually active in European countries where the norm has been for men to be uncircumcised (like other gay men and straight woman here, I'd assume). Most uncut cocks aren't skanky. There's a range. Most are what I'd call clean; some are musky (and maybe naturally incline to musk) and a very few are off. 'Erm, get some soap' is a perfectly legitimate thing to think and to try, politely, to articulate in these cases. I can't think the skank enthusiasts are representative of Europeans.

53

@18 What do you mean by a day or so? Surely you’re washing your dick every time your in the shower i.e. every day?

54

Does the old saw about Europeans' not sharing the perceived American obsession with being hygienic still hold? I know it's at least as recent as Rumpole, who, when his son is about to marry the American Erica and relocate to Baltimore, warns Nick primarily of the hygiene.

55

Ms Fan @51 - Only gays are oppressed primarily by the straightriarchy, not the patriarchy. There's considerable overlap, of course, but the distinction has become rather more visible of late. Pinning it all on patriarchy lets women gloss over female... I'll call it contempt for the G, as they are often pro-LBTQ, including at least one high-profile woman whom I need not name. As I don't approve of gay misogyny, I'll say there is about equal fault on both sides, and that it's about equally likely to fall into the category of being explained-but-not-excused.

56

This just came to me during a discussion of whether the Olivia Newton-John video for her biggest US hit, Physical, could get made today, but the first letter is the flip side of It's My Party, just without the AIDS.

57

Regarding condoms, please NEVER flavoured or scented when having PIV. Even ones with spermicide can be extremely irritating to a vagina.

58

"While regular personal hygiene is important, too much washing with soap and shower gels can cause soreness. Gently washing your penis once a day with warm water is sufficient to maintain good hygiene. If you want to use soap, choose a mild or non-perfumed soap to reduce the risk of skin irritation."

UK NHS website ... https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/sexual-health/how-to-keep-a-penis-clean/

Some mild aroma is natural and this shouldn't become taboo just because a culture can't wait to rip off foreskins at the first opportunity - that is still genital mutilation in 99% of cases: unnecessary removal of a body part for aesthetic or idealistic reasons.

Humans are animals, not sterile plastic toys.
Bacterial stank is another matter.

59

@50 No, he died instantly in one final, fatal climax. RIP. God those two were wild, though. The one I knew better asked me if I would gag him with used condoms until he asphyxiated. Unfortunately for him, I am not much prone to murder (I mean it's not like I've never choked someone out before for those purposes, but still), but I respected the hell out of his absolute lack of shame. There is a purity in it which I find beautiful.

60

Venn @54: Indeed, just see the comment before yours ("every time your [sic] in the shower ie every day") for proof. Outside of the US, there is not this default assumption that every time one showers equals every day. (Though if you have a date, that's probably a day when you should shower.) Many Europeans consider Americans ridiculously hygiene obsessed, and fixated on unnaturally white teeth. That said, I have been living here for 16 years and have yet to meet an uncircumcised penis that stank the way GAGGING describes.

Venn @55: Good point, I should have used the word kyriarchy for the intersectional nature of female and queer oppression. There's no excuse for misogyny, or any other bigotry. But you'd think people who'd been victims of oppression themselves might know better.

61

@ 54 Venn: "She who must be obeyed!"

62

I think we can all agree here. A man's homosexuality does not excuse his misogyny. A woman's sex/gender does not excuse her homophobia.

63

Heal should not lie to his girlfriend to reassure her. Everything is not fine. He needs her to at least start therapy and work on a more comfortable dynamic. He seems to frame it as a problem for him that she needs so much reassurance from him and cries so often but he tells her it's all good? Maybe she is convinced he's leaving because he seems unhappy and unwilling to talk about his relationship needs?

A trained therapist is needed if she has mental health problems. He needs her to go and develop a treatment plan and follow it. It's not clear that he's done anything but mention the possibility of therapy. He could try to help his sick girlfriend if he loves her but it sounds like he was just looking for permission to leave her.

Either tell her what you need and feel is healthy for the relationship and see if she'll do it for you and leave if clearly stated simple reasonable steps are not taken (book Dr appt in next few weeks, go, follow Dr rx, allow one ask for reassurance each night then end the night with subsequent asks) .. Or just bail on the sick woman as it seems you're gearing up for. We don't owe anyone help but I think it's part of honoring our loved ones.

If the medical issue was a broken leg and she wasn't getting it treated properly I think the response would be different.

64

Take the plunge into treating her illness?

65

@60 The average American uses something like 54 pieces of toilet paper a day compared to 12 pieces in the UK. Once again, America is on the front lines, fighting the good fight in the war against nature. Destiny manifests itself in every clogged toilet all across this great nation.

66

It's been my experience that every culture thinks another culture is less hygienic for them. It's pretty common for Indians to express their belief that Americans don't bathe regularly for example and they are disgusted by the American habit of wiping with dry toilet paper and nothing else. Obviously the flip side are the American opinions of Indian hygienic practices for example. It is not surprising for me then for Americans to believe that Europeans are not concerned with stinky dick, but that has not been my experience either. My experience has been that Europeans think it is weird that Americans want to smell like beauty products (the fact of a musky dick is normal- smelling like lavender is weird). But yet again I point out that this LW is not describing the normal smell of a musky dick. She is describing a dick that stinks even immediately out of the shower. The fact that some people might have a fetish for dicks that stink even when they are clean is a totally separate topic. This woman does not have that fetish, and this man does not have a normal musky dick.

67

Philo @63: Good point -- his "no, everything is fine" approach is dishonest and not helping. Perhaps he does need to use some tough love instead. "I wasn't PLANNING on leaving you, but your refusal to get help isn't convincing me to stay. If you won't do this for you, do it for us. Because I can't take much more of this. I know it's not your fault, but it's not fair to me -- can't you see that?"

Lionface @65: This, I strongly disbelieve. I've lived with roommates in the UK and in the US and toilet paper did not last four times as long in the UK. Most homes in the UK do not have bidets. If you'd said Italy, for instance, I might have believed you. Or if you'd compared the amount of water used by Americans vs Brits in flushing their toilets. American toilets do use about four times as much water per flush as British toilets do. And then there are German ones... don't get me started on the horror that is seeing your own poo lying on a shelf before being flushed away!!

68

@67 BDF: I grew up in the UK and the toilet paper in school and other public restrooms was basically tracing paper. One had to crumple it as much as possible, and still it hurt. It encouraged conservation.

69

Skank dick should scrub with rubbing alcohol and a wire brush. Not because that's what's needed to take care of a foreskin, but as punishment for propagating the misconception that uncut necessarily means dirty. Lots of women on craigslist (when that was a thing) would refuse foreskinned guys because of him and his ilk.

70

I'm old and I've sucked a lot of dick and a lot of German dick. The younger generations of Germans seem like they are more "American" in their hygiene habits i.e. washing and showering regularly. I have friends my ageish who a very traditional in their hygiene and don't necessarily bath daily or even.....it seems like a very long time between washes. So there is a cultural component that can be influenced by age. Still, if you're German and hoping to get your dick sucked in the US or if you're German and hoping to get your dick sucked in Germany by and American or someone younger, it's a good idea to keep the mathafucka washed up. I have noticed this tendency in the uncircumcised among other cultures in the US as well. Fortunately,now that I'm old, my sense of smell is not as intense and I'm willing to do almost anything for a little somethin somethin.....:)

71

Congratulations fubar @69, landing on the magic no, enjoy your good luck.
My four remaining adult sons are all uncircumcised, now I’m thinking should I ask if they are cleaning themselves properly and not propogating colonies of germs. Just joking.
I’m sure instructions were given by their father and I when they were boys.
Nobody here is rejecting the human smell of no germs cock, surely. Some sort of soap has got to be used though, clean off residue piss as well as sexual juices. Lots of soap now thru health food shops, some of these must be suitable for sensitive areas.

72

Major congrats, fubar, @69, for scoring our highly coveted Lucky @69 in this week's installment of Savage Love: Differences--!! May an abundance of good fortune rain upon you like never before.

73

@51 BiDanFan: Right spot on, and bless you! Especially in response to Lionface (@39 & @46). Dan must have been cringing in agony while reading GAGGING's letter. I sure did, and only made it halfway through. So I chose to skip ahead to Dan's continually perfect response, instead. Eesh.
I swear, The Stinky Guy anthem, for straights, gays, bis, etc. should be the one composed by Frank Zappa: "Don't You Ever Wash That Thing?"

74

Venn @55 I've been reading your comments for years now, and I've often been tempted to respond to your persistent and pernicious misogyny It seems that because your writing is so opaque and inscrutable, people can't see what you're really up to.

Your claim that you "don't approve of gay misogyny" is belied by the subjects you choose to remark on, and the consistent themes present in the comments you make.
I just wanted to let you know that you haven't fooled everyone...

75

Fubar @68: Well, I'm pleased to inform you that the Americanisation of British culture has spread to its bathrooms. Though we don't go as far as to call them bathrooms ;-)
And congrats on the lucky number!

76

Oh, hi JibeHo. I do tend to get lost in Mr Venn’s stories, not knowing most of the references. And yes, he and I have had a few run ins. Then his mother’s horrid behaviour, I guess I experience his energy as I did radical feminist lesbians in my past. They had shitty fathers, as I saw it, and henceforth all men were tainted. I don’t think I’m fooled by Mr Venn’s posts, affection allows me to forgive him his transgressions.
Good though you are on the trail, he can trust us.

77

Nooo. Do not use soap on an uncircumcised dick. It will dry it out, which your dick will attempt to correct by producing more secretions, which will cause more, not less, smell. GAGGING’s bf should pull back the foreskin in the shower, rinses the head and give the area covered by the foreskin a good rub with his thumb. He should also avoid tight or synthetic underwear - cotton boxers will help keep unpleasant smells in check. This will take care of most of the smell, but, like a healthy vagina, a healthy dick will never be entirely odour free.

78

re GAGGING... ewww, check under the hood, people! How can you be so clueless? And it goes for girls as well as guys. Smegma no good...

79

@26 drjones and Lionface @39 & @46: "Just water and a light scrub is fine for the most part"? Seriously. Even Dan the Man urges GAGGING's "very sexy German boyfriend" to use motherfucking SOAP. If what he's been using---or not---irritates his foreskin, her BF can keep trying until he finds one that works without leaving dryness and itching (if not bar soap, why not moisturizing hypoallergenic liquid soap or gel?). Personal hygiene, regardless of gender shouldn't be rocket science.

80

@78 rockyboy: My point exactly. Thank you.

81

Who's up for a Hunsky?

82

“He says he uses only water. Is there a better way to wash an uncircumcised penis? Can he use some kind of soap?”

Jesus, how do you get to be that age and not have ever learned how to bathe.

83

@77: Noooo--GAGGING's BF can still use hypoallergenic moisturizing liquid soap or gel instead of bar soaps which can cause dryness. Anyone reeking that badly has a serious smegma problem that just water alone won't correct. I'd dump Pepe LePew if he didn't use soap. Please read comments @79 rockyboy and @82 undead ayn rand among others. There is no excuse for not bathing properly. Ethnicity has nothing to do with it.

84

@82 undead ayn rand: Agreed, and thank you.

85

Aunt Zelda @ 73
I seriously doubt Zappa’s "Don't You Ever Wash That Thing?" was a reference to a boy’s part. That said, intentional or not it is an elegant twist that may make him turn in his grave.
And speaking of, is Zappa the reason your car is named Frankie?

86

As for circumcision in the US: During WW2 US soldiers in the pacific front suffered all kinds of infections due to high humidity conditions and limited hygiene means. Jewish soldiers, circumcised as babies for religious reasons, did not have to go through some pee pee related stuff that many of their brothers in arms had to endure.
That led the US medical community believe that circumcision may have some health benefits, and the practice became the norm.

There are still pro and con arguments regarding the real or not benefits, what the act may mean to a baby, and so on.

87

@85 CMDwannabe: In this week's comment thread, it certainly fits, though, don't you think (sorry, Zappa)?
No--my beloved, trusty VW was loosely named after Walt Disney's "Herbie" (a name with an -ie at the end), the 1963 ragtop Volkswagen Bug racing car from The Love Bug and following sequels.

88

@47: Jesus, sounds like someone who’s also a hoarder.

89

For the uncircumcised, part II: you should be able to pull it all the way back and further until all the skin is tight. If it's difficult, keep at it, with the help of lube if needed. Your foreskin will stretch and adapt and it will become easier and easier. When I was ± 13 I couldn't pull my foreskin all the way back (only got to about halfway the glans), now it's not a problem at all. No medical intervention needed.

90

Well, Griz et al, I do think that we should defer to the expertise of uncut penis havers when it comes to the best practices for foreskin hygiene. I'll go out on a limb and guess that Dan, as a typical American male born in the 1960s, was circumcised. So "just use soap" may have implications that may not be obvious to the foreskin-less. However, having now lived in a country of ubiquitous foreskins, it can't be rocket science because clearly all the dudes I've encountered have managed to figure it out. I can see how a typical American scented shower gel might sting sensitive bits. "Clean Human" is a good enough scent for me!

91

@90 BiDanFan: Agreed--and I don't even bear an uncircumcised penis. The uncut men commenting know their situation best. However, notice I had repeatedly mentioned the possible use of some hypoallergenic liquid soaps and gels as an option to bar soaps, which can indeed dry out skin--and I'll take the word of the uncircumcised, here--- foreskin, as well. "Clean Human" is good enough for me, sans eau d' "Pepe LePew". I just want to point out, though, that water alone wasn't solving GAGGING's ongoing problem with her very sexy German boyfriend's unpleasant odor.

92

Firstly, Auntie Grizelda, GAGGING does not say her bf’s dick always ‘reeks that badly’. She says it sometimes smells badly, and sometimes less so. I would bet money that it smells worse on hot days when bf is wearing tight underwear, not drinking enough water, and has not had a shower before sex. (I forgot to mention in my original reply that good hydration also helps). The slight smell she complains of is the way his dick smells. Secondly, even a hypoallergenic or moisturising soap will cause the dick to produce more secretions. They will also upset the balance of bacteria and the result will be a worse smell. GAGGING might not notice this if he always showers immediately before sex, but she will notice eventually, and so will he when he gets a yeast infection. Seriously, If you doubt my advice, trying soaping out your vagina for a week. This will give you a good idea of the effects of soaping under a foreskin.

93

@88 I didn't know him more than saying 'hi' and the politest 'wow...' I could muster under the circumstances. I knew his buddy, though, who was not a hoarder to my recollection, but I didn't know him super well, so what do I know?

Kind of weird how the peanut gallery thinks it knows all about this guy's medical and cleanliness issues. Even guys who wash all over daily with soap may have difficulty with scent. Some overproduce or undermetabolize trimethylamine. Additionally, one scent that's fine for one partner may be nauseating to another.

I note that the most ardent critics of this guy's body are non-penis-havers. Hmm.

94

Lava @76 A few things in your post struck me. First you admit that you don't understand most of what Venn has to say, which is I'm sure intentional on his part. Not understanding most of what he has to say means that you don't "get" most of the thinly veiled misogyny he espouses. But then you say "affection allows me to forgive him his transgressions." I would hardly call his persistent misogynistic statements "transgressions". Just look up Milo Y. Venn is a self-professed admirer. He might dispute that characterization, but in the past he has proposed many times that Mr. Savage (a gynocentrist in Venn's opinion), publicly debate Milo. Anyone who's paid attention to Venn's writings over the years understands that Venn would NOT be on Dan's side of that particular gymnasium...

Second, your statement "I guess I experience his energy as I did radical feminist lesbians in my past. They had shitty fathers, as I saw it, and henceforth all men were tainted." is straight up disgusting. I don't have time to unpack all of the ways that statement is complete shite. You should be ashamed of your ignorance and bigotry rather than parading it around on the internet.

And last, I have no clue what you meant by "Good though you are on the trail, he can trust us." Care to elaborate?

95

Zelda @ 87
Certainly fits indeed auntie, and two points for the witty twist.

96

Showers can be foreplay.
Unscented sensitive-skin bars work on my lady-nethers, and are the only thing that doesn't dry everything out.
If you use Dr. Bronners, avoid the peppermint for lady bits and uncut men. Tingly is too mild a word to describe it.

97

Why is my comment disgusting JibeHo? Back in the 70s and no doubt it occurs today, radical feminist separatist feminists spat shit on All men.
Why was that? Not all men were or are worthy of total rejection or put in some ‘other’ box. Like they are not human. My personal belief, and I’m allowed to have that, a personal belief, than as it is now is those women had negative/ abusive relationships with their fathers. Never did a study or even asked any of the ones I ran into at conferences or the like, just my personal opinion. Mr Venn’s mother, if you have been watching closely, well, you’d know what she put him thru.
My final line meant, go ahead and critique Mr Venn’s words as you need to, I wasn’t in any way saying your perceptions are wrong. I just don’t share them. Jump on when you see an issue with any one, just do it at the time. And do it with some warmth in your heart.

98

Sorry for the double ‘feminist.’ A slip/
And no I’m not ashamed of my perceptions. You should take a chill pill JibeHo. Find the real reason you’re wound up with rage.
First Mr Venn, then me.

99

Lava You made a blanket declaration that ALL radical feminist lesbians are just bitter manhaters because they were abused by their fathers. First, I'm not sure what RFLs have to do with Venn being a stealth misogynist. And second, by your own admission, you make this claim with zero evidence. That's the definition of casting aspersions. For the record, I'm not a radical feminist lesbian, simply a lesbian who is proud to be a feminist.

I don't need a chill pill. I simply spoke up because I'm tired of watching his comments go unremarked upon. We're all still entitled to our opinions I assume? You made a ridiculous statement, and I'm allowed to take objection with it.

100

And clearly you didn’t get the memo. I’m persona non grata here.

I’m sure they’ll forgive you though.

101

I haven’t seen where you are persona non grata here, JibeHo, and I don’t have time to read thru your @99, right now.. Off to the beach to brave to cold water.. not much of a winter here, nobody tells the ocean though.
I’ll read thru your comment on return. There are no ‘they’ here JibeHo. I don’t need forgiving for anything. If Dan hasn’t banned you, your input is fine on his threads.

102

You’re right JibeHo, my comment @76 was sloppy. Apologies. It should have read:
Some radical feminist separtist lesbians.
Of course not all feminist lesbians are men haters..I was referring to a specific sub group of women who openly stated their distrust and hatred of all men. And I couldn’t understand such a blanket dismissal. Why? lead me to believe they had had seriously bad experiences with the first male in their lives, their fathers. My father was a kind and giving dad to me, hatred for all men didn’t resonate with me.
Not sure when you became persona non grata here, I’ve been reading the threads and remember you commenting a few yrs back. I don’t remember any issues though. And Mr Venn went awol for the yr after the presidential election.