Savage Love Aug 7, 2018 at 4:00 pm

Après Pill, Le Déluge

Joe Newton



Griz first?


@SHAGGIN--it sounds like you have a loving, supportive boyfriend. Lucky you. Finding the right hormone balance can be a real bitch, but keep after it. All the best to you both.


@WED: Congrats to your friends getting married.


Weirdly, I just wrote a comment about this on a SLLOTD thread.
I'm no sex researcher, but I am 100% positive that hormonal contraception (in my case, the pill) affected not only my libido, but also inhibited my ability to orgasm. Like many women, I started using it before I even had sex (started it to regulate my erratic period), and therefore I had no experience of being a sexual person when not under its influence. I had nothing to compare it with.

When, after many, many years of taking it, I stopped, I discovered the same thing: I had a much stronger libido than I had previously thought I had.

SHAGGIN might want to read the chapter in Daniel Bergner's book "What Do Women Want" called "Magic,"
in which Bergner discusses the trials of drugs meant to address the problem of women in longterm relationships feeling a drop in libido for their partners. Both Lybrido and Lybridos worked TOO WELL. The women in the trials wanted to regain their desire for their husbands
(I'm pretty sure the husbands wanted that, too) and like SHAGGIN, the women felt horny--for EVERYone and ANYone. And this upset them; it upset their self-conception. They believed that it would upset their husbands if they realized that their wives were now just hot for sex in general, as opposed to being hot for sex with them. Some of them, like SHAGGIN were concerned that they wouldn't be able to adhere to the monogamy that they believed in and wanted to keep.

But you know who was REALLY unnerved by the preliminary success? The pharmaceutical companies that had developed the drugs! Because they didn't want to be seen as responsible for having turned good girls into sluts. They didn't want to be associated with the affairs and the breakups of marriages that seemed an unavoidable collateral effect of the drug in some cases.

Our culture has very narrow parameters in which a woman is allowed to want to have sex: we want our women to want her man, but we are made uncomfortable by a woman who simply wants men.

So of course, the "Female Viagra," the drug meant to increase or restore women's libido that got approved and is on the market today is Flibanserin (trademark brand name Addyi), which not only doesn't really work as a libido-enhancer very well, but also has the disconcerting side effect of sudden extreme sleepiness.


SHAGGIN wrote "a lot of situations come up that make it hard to resist—especially when alcohol is involved," and I just wanted to put a word in for reducing alcohol consumption during challenging periods in your life. One approach is to just nurse your drink longer than usual; or you can ask the bartender for a specialty "mocktail" so you appear to be drinking alcohol if you get self-conscious around some friends.

Another thing to consider is that in your twenties you may feel an intense urge to procreate. I experienced that as a real drive, kind of the way I imagine men experience intense lust, and it freaked me out. I definitely worried that I might make poor decisions in my eagerness to get pregnant. Since you are now fertile, you might want to start charting (tracking your fertile days) and being extra careful about who you fuck during the few days a month when conception is most likely.

Finally, on the birth control issue, I've been on hormonal contraception my whole adult life except for when I was trying to get pregnant. I didn't notice this huge surge in horniness, so I do think the hormones affect different people differently.


WED only asked about gift etiquette, but I would add that it's okay if you're having complicated feelings about your partner's upcoming wedding. Everyone is always entitled to their feelings, of course, but I think watching a beloved partner get married to someone else (like watching an ex get married) is in a class by itself and you deserve to have some kind of treat before or after the event, if that might help.


Congratulations, SHAGGIN, I'm so happy for you I can't stand it!

It is amazing and difficult to underestimate how badly and broadly pharmaceuticals fuck with people.


"I want to have sex with everyone! Men, women, friends, colleagues, acquaintances." - SHAGGIN.

I would caution SHAGGIN about the colleagues thing. I worked with a woman who went through a similar transformation. She started coming on to everybody in our department and I do mean everybody. The problem was that nobody in our department felt the same way so her behavior eventually crossed the line into sexual harassment and she was terminated.


@3 nocutename: Thank you for sharing about your experience with hormonal contraception. This is very good to know information.
@7 curious2: Good point. I'm no doctor, but I wonder if it would be in SHAGGIN's best interests to consider seeing a naturopath about her hormone issues?


If the LW or more importantly those around her notice a hyper tendency in other behavior than sexuality, especially given the recent depression, she may want to contemplate another diagnosis. Need to look at sleep disruption, overall energy and activity level, etc. If they've changed, it's not the hormones specifically, though they're a common trigger for onset, especially if a later (post 20's) diagnosis.


@5 it's more than a few days. Even if she's got a rock solid cycle and can feel when she ovulates very clearly all kinds of things can throw it off (sex or I shit you not just conversation w a guy you are into being one of them) in directions she may not want it to go. Sperm live fed and cared for in your fallopian tubes 7 days, have been found alive in the more hostile vaginal environment at 10 days, and maintain fertility five days prior to ovulation which means from day six counting backwards from when you ovulate, plus another day bc I haven't been able to find any work on whether ovulatory pain is pre post or during the actual event (your egg is good for 24 hrs). It's also not clear that humans escape ovulatory waves (eg multiple chances for ovulation dependant on exposure to males) which are common in other single birth type mammals, that work hasn't been done either. No funding for this stuff. Also well documented and as you experienced judgement around sexual caution is impaired and you'll preferentially select men w higher physical signs of fertility as well as advertize more during this time so it's important to have a plan. Stocking up on Plan b is advised for everyone right now anyway, cheap on Amazon. You don't use it up you can help out others when Roe goes.


@4 also in light of her recent depression, it's possible to be impaired sexually by various antidepressants - if she just started them she needs to report the hypersexuality to her shrink ASAP as she may need a re-eval stat, she could be in real danger. If she just stopped them that might be just as much the cure as the hormones being stopped, although obviously gotta watch out and treat as needed any depressive relapse.


@4 if she's at teenage boy level of horniness I wouldn't consider it a problem - that's normal for ovulation. You get used to it, but I don't think I've personally managed to handle it as gracefully as the men I know - society more lenient towards horny women, also it's intermittent so much less practice. You do have to learn to police your eyes, early on it may not be clear how inadvertantly visibly interested you are which isn't ideal in a professional setting for a variety of reasons. The main problem there and elsewhere is more how enthusiastically it's welcomed.


For SHAGGIN, I'd like to stress that, in a newly open relationship, a partner's seemingly arbitrary rules may be thought of as an opportunity to demonstrate that you will prioritize your partner's comfort and boundaries as you explore your sexuality. Sounds like you two are off on a good path and I'm happy for you.

As for LW2, I think some write in for nothing more than to exercise their preferred labels. Mazel tov to all.


@13: I was speaking of the culture we live in and to some extent internalize, whether we realize it or not. We, as a society as well as individuals, are shaped by it, whether that shape takes the form of feeling the need to conform, embracing the cultural messages, or reacting against them.

In this case, I was speaking of the enforcement of cultural norms that say that women have sex only for love, that they can only really enjoy sex if it has an emotional component. I was thinking of the Madonna/Whore dichotomy and how so many men hold women who do what the men want to do in contempt, especially if it's clear that the women are not doing __ just because her man wants her to; rather she's doing it because she wants it.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with anyone having the libido of a fourteen year-old boy, so long as they can behave themselves publicly.


@13: I was speaking of the culture we live in and to some extent internalize, whether we realize it or not. We, as a society as well as individuals, are shaped by it, whether that shape takes the form of feeling the need to conform, embracing the cultural messages, or reacting against them.

In this case, I was speaking of the enforcement of cultural norms that say that women have sex only for love, that they can only really enjoy sex if it has an emotional component. I was thinking of the Madonna/Whore dichotomy and how so many men hold women who do what the men want to do in contempt, especially if it's clear that the women are not doing __ just because her man wants her to; rather she's doing it because she wants it.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with anyone having the libido of a fourteen year-old boy, so long as they can behave themselves publicly.


I would build on @10/no comment. What seems concerning to me is that SHAGGIN suggests that she is on the verge on not being able to control her sexual impulses. In some respects she sounds like a young man, with sexual eyes turned in all directions, but men are constrain by social conventions and the availability of sex, and by-and-large are able to control their sexual impulses, but one has to wonder whether something else is at play. I wouldn't what to be so encouraging of her newfound sexual libido that no thought was given to considering other potential causes of her behavior.

I would also add that I didn't see anything too limiting in the rules for extra-relationship sex set out by SHAGGIN's boyfriend, simply no friends and no mutual acquaintances. Frankly, given SHAGGIN's behavior, keeping her from fucking friends seems like good advice, and no mutual acquaintances seems like a common rule. I'm sure there are plenty of men and women in her area to fuck that she isn't friends with and isn't working with and who don't know her boyfriend.


Okay. I see my mistake. I meant: (not @3 but) @4 nocutename: See my comment @9.


Congrats, Griz @1!

I found it amusing that SHAGGIN's rules are the opposite of FUR's from this SLLOTD:
She and her partner could ONLY sleep with friends they both knew, and had to tell. SHAGGIN and her boyfriend must NOT sleep with friends they both know, and must not tell. I love human variety.

SHAGGIN's increased libido is almost certainly affected by birth control, but could also just be to do with age. She's been having sex for just over a decade, so she's probably just now got enough experience to really know what works for her and how to get off. And if sex always involves explosive orgasms, you probably want more of it than you would if it didn't. The great news here is that if SHAGGIN's increased libido is causing problems, she knows how to fix it -- go back on the pill! She knows it works, doesn't cause the side effects she experienced with the NuvaRing, and has no reason to not be on it other than "to see what would happen." She saw what happened; is she happy with that? Personally, in her shoes I'd be going back on it. More sex + more partners + no backup birth control other than condoms = too much pregnancy risk for my liking.

WED: Oh ffs, buy her a gift you think she'd like and Get Over Yourself. Dan, why did you have to platform Ms "I'm part of a nonhierarchical polycule" so that readers all over the world could mock her?


EricaP @5: All good points. I thought the "your mileage may vary" point was a given, but perhaps it does need to be said. I've been on the pill for most of my 30 sexually active years and never experienced any side effects -- not even larger breasts, which was a disappointment. These things affect women differently.

Ms No @12: There's no evidence she's on antidepressants. She treated her "extreme mood swings/bouts of depression" by removing their cause, aka the NuvaRing, not by compounding chemistry by adding more meds to the mix.

Ms No @13: She's at teenage-boy level of horniness all month long.


BDF @ 20 - "She's at teenage-boy level of horniness all month long"

So are teenage boys. And it lasts for years (in my case, more than 20).


Ricardo @21: That was in reply to Ms No's "if she's at teenage boy level of horniness I wouldn't consider it a problem - that's normal for ovulation."


In comment #11, No wrote, "Sperm live fed and cared for in your fallopian tubes 7 days, have been found alive in the more hostile vaginal environment at 10 days."

Sperm are worse than a dang stalker. #creepy


@6. Erica. Yes, I agree--the LW may (only may) be writing about a wedding present as a deflection from asking about her feelings. Re the present, within her means, she should get a bigger present for her marrying gf than someone who isn't so close. It shouldn't be something that she knows her gf will like, but isn't of obvious domestic utility, wouldn't evidently appeal to the new wife and about which she could have only had an inside line through her relationship. Hmm... I see about the perils of poly overthinking. The ironing-board it is, then--WINK WINK WINK. This will be a big change in her life, even if her marrying gf will be with her for just the same amount of time as before; and it would be too sanguine to suppose it won't be.


@17.Sublime. Yes, SHAGGIN's bf's rules are fair and clear. SHAGGIN wants lots of extramural sex. She can go out and get it within the rules without coming close to violating them.


@19. Bi. Of the two correspondents this week, the one who has a real problem is WED. SHAGGIN just has to keep it in her pants with friends. That's a problem of the order, 'I love working out at the gym but can't motivate myself to go when it's raining' i.e. the response is buy a rain poncho or set of dumbbells to use at home. Sure, she has a question about her body and psychology, which is a different matter.

WED has a real problem of etiquette, which covers up issues with possibly impermissible or vetoed feelings. She's in a nonhierarchical polycule, so her relations with her partner getting hitched shouldn't change, and she has no formal basis on which to feel apprehensive, aggrieved, hurt, in any way ambivalent, at her gf's marriage itself. This needn't be about her gf's other relationship e.g. 'you wanted to marry her instead of me!' It could be e.g. 'you wanted security and societal acceptance; it wasn't good enough for you for us all to be in it together, or for you to be an outlaw'. Her feelings might well be perfectly uncomplicated, happy for her marrying gf, and her purpose in writing it to demonstrate that this is possible. Or she could have reservations; and she shouldn't feel she needs to sweep those feelings under the carpet.


The only unworkable facet of SHAGGIN's rules is "no intimacy with anyone - it must be purely sexual/physical." If we could simply will ourselves to not catch feelings for people we have sex with, pop as a genre would not exist. Are they going to put a one-fuck limit on Tinder hookups? What will she say to hookups who want to see her again -- will she cite the rule or just ghost them? Will she tell them up front that it's one and done?

I also see a danger in this sentence: "I'm feeling sexual connections to so many more people now, and often to people I've known for a while." So she's allowed to fuck strangers but not the people she actually fancies. This is a recipe for frustration and for rule-breaking -- if BF is required to not ask, and if it's not someone HE knows, then what's the harm, right? Not to mention that she already recognises she's instant slut, just add alcohol. I hope she learns to channel -most- of her new higher libido towards her existing relationship, which is what most of us seem to manage!


@27. Bi. You are right. 'No intimacy'--that's a big ask. Her bf may be hoping 'libido is just libido' and she works it out her system.


BDF @ 22- I'm aware of that. I just wanted to point out that if she's freaking out about being at a teenage-boy level of horniness, perhaps women should give greater consideration to what it feels like to be stuck with boy hormones that just won't let one rest. (Said from the point of view of a highly-sexed, highly promiscuous man who has very often been told - and never by men, who are usually just envious - that I should make more of an effort to keep it in my pants.)


It took me the longest time to get used to the idea that it wasn't a matter of figuring out what hormone levels were right for me as per how they affected horniness. That would be too easy, figure out the right level and leave it there. No, for me it's a matter of figuring out a complex interplay of increasing or decreasing hormone levels. Basically, I feel great and horny when there's an upsweep in estrogen. Just keeping me at a high level of estrogen doesn't work. I don't have the data or know the science behind any of this to be more specific. (In my case, not having the data can be considered a good thing. My health troubles were never so great as to necessitate constant monitoring of blood hormone levels so I can't say for certain what's going on. This is all good guesses.) I give my personal experience in the hopes that it can help SHAGGIN make sense of what's going on with her.

That's related to my next observation. Most of us are able to grow into an awareness of how hormones affect us through our teens. That's not literally since I'd guess most teenagers can't even name estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, etc, but we do get some idea of growing up mentally and sexually along side growing into our adult bodies. SHAGGIN didn't have that luxury. (I use "luxury" ironically.) The good news is that it's been only a couple months. No wonder the new feelings are coming on in an onslaught. In addition to the excellent advice Dr. Chivers gave, I'd advise giving it some time-- same as I'd tell a 14 year old girl who was overwhelmed with sexual feelings to give it some time too.

Nocute-- Thanks for the info on lybrido and lybridos. Interesting! I had no idea.


I commend Ms Erica for advising alcohol reduction.

I'll largely defer to Ms Cute, though I'll note that I'd definitely have drunk Iseult's potion, but doubt I'd have tricked Tristram into drinking it as well.

Ms Fan - What we don't know is whether BF will be changing his conduct or not. If he intends to be acting on the new openness as well, then it seems highly likely he's shaping the agreement to his own purposes. If he intends to remain monogamous (one might insist on not taking a one-sided agreement out of pride), one might note that some rules are more danger-prone than others, but it seems undue carping to complain that she doesn't get one of Mr Savage's full blanket passes.

I'd probably advise a no-fault breakup on the grounds of excessive external change to the relationship dynamics, let LW go have a fun period, and then see if they want to take up again.


@27/BiDanFan: “I also see a danger in this sentence: "I'm feeling sexual connections to so many more people now, and often to people I've known for a while." So she's allowed to fuck strangers but not the people she actually fancies.”

But the set of people she fancies is larger and the people she is friends with, so that rule isn’t a significant impediment to her getting laid. And as I mentioned above, she given her inability to control her urges, she might not read signals from her friends too well, so a rule that keeps her from making advances on her friends might be a good idea anyway.

I think the real concern in her statement is the fact that she is finding her sexuality changing so much along with the people with whom she would like to have sex. Being on the pill reduced her same sex attractions? Being off the pill not only increased her sex drive, but also made her desirous of sex with people whom she has known for a long time? That strikes me as odd.

You noted that she is off the pill and having a lot of sex. SHAGGIN might want to think about a non-hormonal copper IUD, which are supposed to be quite effective.


SHAGGIN, echoing what @nocutename said in #3, my girlfriend was on hormonal birth control for years in which her sex drive was tamped down and her ability to orgasm greatly impaired. When she switched birth control to an IUD she, like you, had an explosion in her sexual desire as well as her ability to orgasm, so while this is just another piece of anecdotal evidence, it seems you have company in that respect.
As for how to get your sexual appetites met within the rules of your open relationship, I would highly recommend looking for any Swinger / Lifestyle Clubs near where you live. Single women are ALWAYS welcome at the clubs and while the number of single / unattached men is tied to how many single women are attending, you should have no problem finding men who want to fuck you. Furthermore, since you mentioned your rising libido has also led to an attraction women, you will find no shortage of couples eager to include you in a threesome. As for maintaining the rules of "sex only" while there is nothing stopping you from keeping in contact with people you meet a these clubs, by and large most people there are only looking for hookups or have their sexual adventures within the club itself. Lastly, as you gain experience in the clubs, if your boyfriend becomes interested you could invite him to join you.
A few other recommendations for finding men to sleep with where sex and not emotional intimacy are the goal
FetLife: Set yourself up with a profile and explore Groups within your area. Lots of groups focused on cuckqueening, hotel parties, not to mention personal ads looking for hookups can help you find people
Adult Friend Finder: You will have your pick of the litter among men looking to hook up with women
OK Cupid: The option to list yourself as available for Casual Sex, or to search for men interested in Casual Sex, is another option.


Ricardo @29: And what? Brush off sexual harassment and rape? Um, no. High libido people, whatever their gender, still need to behave themselves. (Said as a high libido person.)

Venn @31: I declined to go down the road of advising them on how to handle their open relationship because her question was simply "is this normal?". Ideally, yes, he's enjoying the openness too, and they can enjoy a progression toward more trust and openness and fewer rules, but that was outside the purview of the question. So I'll instead join with Fichu @30 in hoping instead that the hormone surge levels out and she can get back to a place where she feels she can handle her libido and not do anything she'll regret.


@11 no ".......when Roe goes." Ho-lee shit am I glad to be entering menopause! The gross Err of Trump ad nauseum is what needs to go, and a perfect example of why it is SO important to vote.
@23 Gladys Leeman: The Mighty Gladys strikes again! Agreed, bravo, and well done.


Halfway to Lucky @69! Wa-HOO!


BDF @ 34 - I was thinking along the lines of "... and stop sermoning us for having a high libido", but thanks for implying that I'm trying to justify rape. Nice.


For SHAGGIN - I had almost exactly the same story. On HBC my entire sexually active life, ended up switching to NuvaRing and stopped HBC altogether afterwards because of issues with the Ring. I also had the same extreme increase in sex drive, including the feeling that my urges were indiscriminate and that I was choosing inappropriate objects of desire. Thankfully, over the course of a couple of months, everything seemed to balance out. My sex drive is overall higher (and I think more healthy), than when I was on HBC, but I either the wildest urges calmed down or just became easier to control. You will probably feel a lot more in control of yourself in a month or two. Just don't sleep with any co-workers or close friends in the meantime. :)




Some women losing their desire and still there is no male contraceptive pill. And some people continue to deny we live in a Patriarchy. Imagine putting men on a pill which lessens their sex drive. HaHa. That would last five minutes.
Love to you Ricardo. You’re the first gay man I’ve ever fallen in love with/ internet version. After Dan.


Lava @ 40 - "Imagine putting men on a pill which lessens their sex drive. HaHa. That would last five minutes"

Five minutes? You must be joking: no budget would ever be granted for the development of such a pill.

And thanks for the love XXX


SHAGGIN: Cut back on alcohol, especially when hanging out with people who are not your boyfriend. Masturbate a lot. Be kind to your boyfriend--be sure you are trying to meet his needs as he supports you meeting yours. Clarify what he means by DADT--how would he feel if you told him a month later that you'd had sex with someone else? Would he want to talk that through, or does he really want zero knowledge? Get real specific. Try to be realistic about your own needs; if you like to talk out your feelings, you may have to find a different audience on this one.

Go on Tinder and/or OKCupid and try to hook up with a woman or two. Do not drink on these dates. See how you feel afterwards.


There are about 40 different birth control pill formulations available in the US. If you’re experiencing side effects, try changing pills, which you can do easily.

The gonane family of progestins are more likely to hamper libido, whereas the estrane progestins will not. The gonanes are more commonly prescribed due to the anti-acne effects and better menstrual cycle control. Try a pill with the progestin norethindrone.

You’re welcome.


I had a similar experience, but enough different to maybe be interesting. I switched away from the pill to NuvaRing many years ago, and experienced a major uptick in libido.

(warning: totally non-specific and maybe full-of-errors explanation incoming)
My doctor gave me a possible reason, which was technical and which mostly went over my head, but so far as I remember it went something like this: some percentage of women process hormones differently orally than vaginally; given progesterone orally, it binds (?) with testosterone, actually disabling the testosterone and therefore reducing sex drive. Switch to NuvaRing, the same hormones are processed differently, and suddenly all your natural testosterone is doing its natural thing, i.e., causing sex drive. Dunno how legit that is, but whatever the reason, it was a real thing for me. Later I went off HBC altogether, and had another uptick.

It pisses me off NO END that loss of libido isn't a more regular part of the discussion when women choose to go on hormonal birth control. Which makes perfect sense: birth control fakes your body into thinking it's pregnant; why bother being horny then? Somehow I feel this is rarely mentioned. A bummer for men and women alike.

Hunter: I read that the trials for the male pill were cancelled when so many men dropped out, due to reported "mood swings and headaches." To those men I really wanted to say a big screw you >.< I sure hope they at least appreciate what their girlfriends and wives go through now.


Ms Fan - Enjoyment always struck me as too creepy and infringing. I was prepared for cheerful acquiescence, much more respectful.



It does become a drag after some time to use your body as a guinea pig for various products. It takes months sometimes to figure out the symptoms- while some are readily apparent, others take a while before you realize what's up. And then you get off and re-regulate (at risk to get pregnant during the time) and then on another again, after years of this it becomes a real roller coaster. This is before we consider the cost and insurance, etc. No judgement on anyone's choices, but I get annoyed when people act like there is an easy answer that smart people would choose if only they had some wise old fart to tell them so, you're welcome.


@45: Yes, it pisses me off, too. Women should be able to make informed choices. I was never told that antibiotics could interfere with the birth control pill's effectiveness. Lo and behold, it can A pharmacist should tell anyone who is getting a prescription for antibiotics and using hormonal contraception to use an alternate form of contraception for the duration of the course of antibiotics and the rest of the pill cycle.
None has ever told my daughters that, either.

It's just so CONVENIENT, you see, to not tell women about the fact that hormonal bc can interfere with libido and orgasm. And after all, how much does women's sexual satisfaction really matter? I mean, being on the Pill means their boyfriends won't have to use condoms--and what man wants to do that?

I really wonder how many of those women whose libido has tanked, affecting their marriages and relationships, causing unhappiness for everyone involved, can be traced back to the Pill.
I used it for well more than a decade, until I wanted to get pregnant, then spent several years in baby-making and nursing mode. And then BLAM! I wasn't the same woman I'd been, the one who didn't really mind that my marriage wasn't sexually satisfying.


BTW this wasn't widely available back when I was young, but there are non hormonal IUDs now. I know they have their own sets of considerations, but this is another thing worth looking into for those women who would like to prevent pregnancy without grappling with the side effects of hormones.


If you find your boyfriend's list of restrictions onerous, and you are just as attracted to women as to men, try offering to bring some fun home to him. Maybe even friends who might be attracted to HIM as well as you. It's considerably easier to not take your partner's sudden fascination with everybody else as a referendum on your desirability, when you are an active participant.

Do be sure not to forget he's there in the room, though.


What gets me laughing are claims from men who feel cheated because they'll never experience pregnancy, childbirth, and breastfeeding. Robert DeNiro, Dustin Hoffman, Jack Nicholson, et al, be careful what you wish for (at least in films, anyway). If you only knew.


What gets me laughing is hearing quotes from actors like Robert DeNiro, Dustin Hoffman and Jack Nicholson among others expressing how they feel cheated or envious because they'll never experience pregnancy, childbirth, or breastfeeding (at least in the movies). If they only knew.


Sorry for my double post, everyone.


Well, Ricardo @37, perhaps you should type such things instead of merely thinking them, because when you leave things open to interpretation, logical conclusions are drawn. I agree no one should shame anyone for having a high libido. And that includes the male ex who asked if there was something wrong with me.

Lava @40: During periods of singleness, I would absolutely take a pill that would lower my sex drive. I bet many men would too. See Ricardo's awkward call for sympathy for those afflicted with high drives.
Male birth control IS under development, and many men eagerly await it. Of course there are the naysayers -- men will forget to take it, or use "I'm on the pill" as an excuse to pressure women to not use condoms. While both these things will undoubtedly happen in some cases, as men are human and therefore some of them are careless and/or selfish, that's no reason to deprive countless other men of the opportunity to control their own desire to not become fathers.
Chemical castration is also a (separate) thing, used to treat paedophiles. Perhaps it will be used to treat rapists as well, or MGTOWs -- voluntarily, of course, for this last group.

Venn @46: "Cheerful acquiescence" implies he's not bothered by SHAGGIN's dalliances. "Enjoyment" implies he's having his own, too, which is indeed what I was trying to imply.


Sublime, if you're still here, I replied to you on the ICYMI thread.


Hunter @44: "as long as men were sure there is no loss of performance or desire."

Yes. Women experience "loss of performance or desire" on a pretty frequent basis, yet women are expected to continue taking birth control pills despite these side effects.


‘ male birth control IS under devrlipment’, Fan?
When the female version was created back in the 60s, the lead scientists must be Beavis and Butthead.




Yes, it is.
One study was halted recently after some men experienced side effects. This led to derision among female quarters because the side effects are what women have been putting up with since the 1960s. However, one suicide is indeed cause for concern, and hopefully science will continue to come up with birth control options that are side effect-free for both sexes:


@47 and I get annoyed when people on the Left act like it’s only the Right that dismisses science and expertise. And also when people discuss the birth control pill as a monolith.

Take the advice, or don’t. Hopefully some reader who’s currently experiencing low libido on Orthotricyclen, for instance, will switch to Loestrin (also for instance) and feel better. Hopefully you would want that for her too.


When it comes to a medicine or device designed to prevent pregnancy, you know you've gotten it right when 2 otherwise fertile people don't get pregnant despite PIV sex.

When it comes to a medicine or device designed to prevent high blood pressure, you've first got to have a definition of what's normal and what's too high. That's not as easy as it sounds when you're talking what it takes to prevent heart attack and given the huge variation in the human health, but it's still way easier than ...

Figuring out what's normal in human sexuality, and especially in female sexuality. I know I don't want someone else medicating me into what they think should be normal or healthy. If they did, they'd likely decide I was over-horny in my teens and maybe under-horny now. Every lesbian who wasn't attracted to the man her parents picked out for her to marry would be sick and need a medicine for that, and every man who was dissatisfied with his wife's once a week schedule would want to medicate her into wanting it twice.

I like the idea of women themselves getting to decide if their post menopausal lack of libido is a problem for them. I surely love the idea of a birth control pill with no side effects, libidinal or otherwise.

I'm not sure I have a point here, other than thinking that caution is appropriate given how medicine for sex depends on a definition of what healthy is, and you have to start with what's healthy for each individual. And just allowing individuals to decide what's healthy for them based on what makes them happy is fraught with danger too.


BDF @ 54 - I think my parenthetical statement @ 29 made my train of thought clear enough. What you decided to derive from that is not a "logical conclusion", it's a reflexion of a) how YOU think men think (which is extremely offensive, by the way) and b) your incapacity to not let a) interfere in conversation, even when the conversation is going somewhere else.

Yes, I'm pretty pissed off. That was vile.


Ms Fan - Difference of interpretation, then. If I were forced to bet on the situation, I'd go with his not intending to have anything outside (something I can't pin down in LW's tone). As someone who was always prepared to accept the short end of one-way openness, I can assure you I had a couple of permanent hard rules ready. I thought perhaps you were going the route of Mr Savage and certain others in assuming a dichotomy that people who accept X either break up over X or come around to love it themselves, erasing those who accept X and are glad it fulfills the partner's needs without ever liking it for itself.


@60 Fresh - no time to really post here right now, but I said absolutely nothing about leftists or rightists in this post or in this discussion about birth control ??

I have talked recently in another thread about people on the right restricting women's access to reproductive health care which is a fact- this is a thing that it is happening, and yes it is exclusively politicians on the right doing it. However that has nothing to do with what I said above (the post to which you are responding) which is about people in general assuming that there's an easy fix to the problem of how to have sex for decades while also being in control of your reproductive system. This has nothing to do with politics nor with my hopes that women get whatever works for them, and yes I'm totally with you in the "more knowledge" camp. My response is to your smug "your welcome" as well as the statement that as there are loads of products on the market, one can just "easily" experiment with them until you find what works.


Ricardo, I agree with your sentiments, but it is true that you joined into a conversation about libido by saying that women should have more sympathy for men with high libidos even though that conversation did not include women saying anything unsympathetic to men with high libidos nor any sermonizing from them either which is what you say you are objecting to. So it would've prevented misunderstanding if you'd said what it was you were talking about (what is it that women do that seems judgmental or unsympathetic to men with high libidos specifically?) which btw I think could be an interesting discussion and I'd like to hear everyone's experiences dealing with this. But instead, your example is that many women have told you to keep your dick in your pants which would lead me to wonder what cause they had to tell you that, and without details, it's not weird to jump to the response that BDF had. You are the one saying that you have such a high libido that women tell you to keep your dick in your pants which sounds a lot like you were pulling it out because you are horny.

Now based on everything else I've ever seen you post, I know that this is a misinterpretation, and I'm sure that BDF knows that too. Hence her asking what you mean, and perhaps in hard words, but you did say women are telling you to keep it in your pants so...

In any case, my guess is this is a misunderstanding and that neither side should take offense- just clarify.


To clarify, I mean I am interested in hearing how women are less sympathetic to men's libidos- I think that could be an interesting perspective on the world that I don't personally experience so it's good to hear those points of view. But if your example is that you are so horny that women have to tell you to keep your dick in your pants, then yes this is harassment. Since I've been reading your posts long enough to be certain that this is not what you actually meant, I would ask you to clarify what you are talking about.


Sorry to upset you, Ricardo. I guess you hadn't thought through some of the implications of "women giving greater consideration" to men and their higher libidos. From where I'm sitting, an awful lot of terrible male behaviour is excused because "boys will be boys" or because "men can't control themselves" (look at the current burqa debate), so MORE sympathy towards poor, afflicted, horny dudes seems like the last thing we need. I wasn't trying to imply that you personally were suggesting we let men off the hook for rape. Shall we bury this hatchet?

Venn @63: Well, see Ricardo's point for how likely it is that any dude would find himself in a relationship where it was okay to fuck other people and not try to fuck other people. (Yes, I've known, and dated, a few naturally monogamous guys, but they're a minority, and IME extremely unlikely to accede to a female partner's request for outside partners. I think far more would see the request for an open relationship as an opportunity for themselves.)


BTW Fresh in retrospect if I misread your tone, I apologize. I took it to be the eyeballing sort of "you could just do this thing dummy" which is unfortunately an attitude around reproductive options that I'm frequently exposed to. But in retrospect, I see that I've probably misread you and your "you're welcome" is more a wink at the return of pleasure and the "easily changed" is more encouragement than dismissal. It's hard to hear tone online.


I thought it was obvious that Ricardo meant he was being judged for promiscuity. Not for literally taking his dick out in front of women--which, if I'm not correct, would be a very odd thing to do, given his sexual orientation.

If I missed something, do correct me, Ricardo.

Bi, I realize you just offered to shut this conversation down @67, but I'm going to jump in here for a sec...

You're absolutely right that a lot of behavior is shrugged off as "boys will be boys" or what-have-you. And I in no way mean to say people should be laid-back about harassment or similar behaviors. That said, I do think there's very little sympathy for the intensity of sexual desire and interest had by some people--mostly men, although of course there are exceptions all over the place. It feels like "Just deal with it" is the standard response, which isn't very empathetic, and wouldn't be received well by (many) women if it was a response given them by a man to a (primarily) female problem. (To be clear, Bi, I am not talking about you or your attitude, here, just a general thing I see happening in society.)

If we want our problems (e.g. the effect of hormones on our bodies) taken seriously, we should make good-faith efforts to take seriously the issues others have. It's not a zero-sum game.


Ciods, I'm likewise absolutely certain that Ricardo does not wag his dick at women, but I still had no idea in what ways he's being judged (what are these women actually saying and what has he done that they are judging him for.) Despite knowing this couldn't be what he meant, I can't figure out what else they are telling him to keep in his pants- chap stick, guitar pick, car keys? I mean it must mean his dick. lol It's obvious to you ciods, but it did not occur to me until this moment that these women could be telling him to keep it in his pants in reference to something he had done that had nothing whatsoever to do with them- like he's flirting with men and other women are telling him to be less promiscuous and keep it in his pants?

Really shitty judgmental behavior, that, like slut shaming. I'd think those women don't really need sympathy for someone else's libido but rather to be told to mind their own fucking businesses and take their judgements elsewhere. But perhaps some insight into horniness could make judgmental nosey people less of assholes?

Agree with everything you said Ciods. And also since this is twice in one hour that I have misinterpreted, I'm going to admit I'm terrible at multi-tasking and butt out.


Ciods @69 -- Congrats!
I hope I never implied that Ricardo, of all people, was sexually harassing women. Of course he is not. His high libido is confined to men, so these women who are slut shaming him (I agree with EmmaLiz that this is what he seems to be describing in his parenthetical) are not personally affected.

By Ricardo's libido.

But Ricardo was advocating for women -- generally -- to have greater sympathy for high male libidos -- generally. And while a high gay male libido does women no harm at all, high hetero libidos certainly have. Women have historically been socialised to just accept the inappropriate behaviour spurred by these high libidos, because poor men just can't help themselves. So while I agree that Slut Shaming Is Bad, a -- general -- attitude that women should cut men more slack for being horny all the time seems a bit reactionary, given the new focus on -not- excusing bad male behaviour espoused by the #MeToo movement. That's the only point I was trying to make, and I'm sorry if I personally offended Ricardo in the process.

The flip side indeed is that most men do manage to behave themselves in spite of raging hormones, so yes, that should be recognised. Greater acceptance of sex work of all forms could be one way to recognise and sympathise with men's drives without putting the onus on women to accept the unacceptable. But yes, one result of high libidos and nothing but a "deal with it" attitude is the incel movement, which I think we can all agree is toxic.

Bring the sex robots, I say, only half joking.


You all seem to have figured out what I was saying by yourselves. Congrats to Ciods for the lucky number and for getting it right at the first attempt. This in particular : "It feels like "Just deal with it" is the standard response, which isn't very empathetic, and wouldn't be received well by (many) women if it was a response given them by a man to a (primarily) female problem."


Yes Fan I know there is development going on re a male pill. It’s just taken so long one wonders how committed they are. Viagra got up before a male contraceptive pill.
I don’t know how any woman can take a contraceptive pill or any of its variations and not expect over time to have side effects.


@69 ciods: Congratulations on scoring the coveted Lucky @69 Award this week! May Lady Luck smile generously upon you like never before.


SHAGGIN, you are a 27 yr old woman, young still in the eyes of the fertility gods. And you have just opened yourself to these forces, after over a decade of artificial changes in your body.
Your hormones don’t know who is what as they settle down to an ordinary level of horny, for your age.
Condoms.. be careful.
If you have a talent for it, maybe write erotic stories as your body adjusts to being without contraceptives. Sounds like they could be saucy.


Yes, congratulations ciods.


Ms Fan - From Torch Song Trilogy - "If I have to accept that you're seeing other people, then you have to accept that I'm not!"

This discussion goes back to having different standards for OS and SS. It reminds me of a few years ago, when the response to "All Porn Degrades Women" that "Gay Porn Has No Women" was deemed no longer good enough, because one of the participants was deemed a substitute woman, which from the gay perspective was absurd. I did wonder if there would be an argument that gay men should have to be held to female standards so that we wouldn't infect bi men, but have not seen that one yet, at least not expressed quite that way.


@Lava 57: Contraceptives for men have been under development for decades, and have been in use in India for decades. There have been a number of proposals for contraceptives (that would be allowed in Western European/North American countries) that reached the stage where the next step in the development process would have been large scale (i.e. multi-million dollar) trials, and in each case they have been nixed because these trials needed to be approved by the MEN on the boards of directors of enormous pharmaceutical companies. If a man is on the board of directors of one of these companies, he is rich enough that the cost of raising a child, including paying someone else to do any child care he doesn't want to do, is a minor expense to him. And these men look at each other and say "why would anyone want a male contraceptive? there's no market for it, so we won't pay for the trials".


So SHAGGIN's boyfriend has decided that it's a good idea for her to have sex, as long as it's "purely sexual/physical casual encounters with strangers", often under some influence of alcohol, using condoms as birth control. Yeah, seriously, what could go wrong with that? I am sure the strangers, fucking someone else's girlfriend with whom they have neither intimacy nor friendship, will be totally dedicated to supporting her in her condom use.


Yes Old Crow @78, one guesses western companies are not falling over themselves to do anything much about male contraceptives, tossers.
Raugiel @38, is speaking from experience, LW. Not sure going on a sexual rampage is such a good idea during this time. Especially given you’re new to the condom game. Some men have been pulling them off mid fuck and given you’re heightened level of desire your intuition could be impaired re who is and who isn’t a decent man.
@No I think is clued into the ovulation cycle, LW, and you should be too. I could never get my head around it.
I’m surprised I didn’t have an even dozen sometimes.


SHAGGIN's ramped up (out of control?) libido is disrupting her life. Obviously not a good thing. She needs to treat this as a medical condition and address it as such. As others have pointed out, she probably needs to go back on the pill. Hopefully that will stabilize her libido. I don't want to get into a discussion on brain chemistry, neurotransmitters and the structure of the brain.


Why should she go back on the pill skeptic? She’s decided to proceed without using it, did you not read that part of the letter. It’s a biological condition, the result of her body readjusting to be ready to make babies. If she uses her head along with her urges, she can manage her fertility.
And men should butt out telling women to get on any medication to do with reproduction. Especially when we’ve just pointed out how tardy that lot are at getting the male pill to western men.


@71. Bi. Bring on the sex robots, and let's become the robots ourselves. Not always the sexbots; maybe there could be a switch we could flip when it was sexy times.

High het-male libido is, and has been, bad for women in a context of sexism, patriarchal norms. Clearly the task is to address sexism. How much of this can be done without getting to grips with assumptions of male entitlement in the sexual sphere?--e.g. men feeling entitled to make lewd and contextually inappropriate passes; to expect female compliance to a male lead in dating; to suppose that wealth or status 'buys' female admiration or sexual acquiescence, etc.? I think quite a lot of it--e.g. concentrate on gender-blindness in nonsexual contexts, like job applications, school letters being sent equally to mothers and fathers, etc.; and that will be a first step in reforming regrettable or prejudicial features of gender-role socialization.


@77. Venn. Then in this case it's quite likely the bf is making use of his pass too.


@81: I don't recall anyone here saying that SHAGGIN needs to "go back on the pill." And why should she? She does need to set and respect boundaries about who is off limits, and she needs to learn how to not make a pass at every person she fancies, but I think she'll be able to do that.


Also, SHAGGIN's question wasn't "how do I stop myself from coming on to people?" but "is this normal? Can removing a cocktail of hormones from my life really change me this much?"
She says that she's "very good with self-policing," despite the fact that she wants to have sex with virtually everyone she sees. She says she doesn't think she'll actually act on her urges. So yes, that sounds like a 14-year-old boy. Most of them don't actually try to have sex with inappropriate people, like their friend's mothers or their teachers, or strangers in the mall. And no one suggests that 14-year-old boys use hormones to suppress their libidos because being horny is a problem.

She was wondering if stopping using hormonal contraception could really be responsible for so great a change in libido, and the answer to that question is yes.


M?? Harriet - If he is, I'm strongly inclined to doubt that LW knows about it. She has enough on her own plate; anything she saw on his would have made the letter a mess.

Gender blindness could have unintended consequences, perhaps, but in general my immediate response is to approve your plan, if it doesn't intend to treat gays as defective women.


Look, just like men who are raging horny can control themselves and not go out assaulting people, likewise women who are raging horny can safely use condoms and manage their reproductive system. Some comments here sound like she's going to throw all caution to the wind and get knocked up in a a few months. Women always faced the risk of getting pregnant- this isn't new. She can use condoms, be vigilant about who she sleeps with, follow best practices for STD prevention and safety (for which there is an abundance of advice from Dan over the years), look into other non hormonal barriers (such as the IUD) or other hormonal BC that might do less damage to her libido if that is an option, and go enjoy her youth and her sexuality. And if, hopefully not, but if she does get pregnant as sometimes does happen even to people using condoms and/or birth control, she can get an early term abortion (or if the condom breaks use emergency contraceptive) neither of which are pleasant experiences but likewise are safe, legal (for a little while longer anyway) and nonintrusive. This is literally what most sexually active women are doing- it's not some odd thing to have to manage your risk, it's life as a woman. Being horny doesn't turn you into a baby making machine unless you let it, anymore than being horny turns a man into a rapist unless he's already fucked in the head. It's fun to be a young horny woman with a desire for casual sex- it just takes some managing of risk & safety and honest sober non-horny consideration of what you want to do and with whom, so I say she reflects this way and then goes out and enjoys the hell out of her newfound libido.

Also the "sexbots are the answer" line is absurd. No prob with sexbots, think they could be fun as any toy, but most men are not going to be satisfied by fucking a doll anymore than they would by using a fleshlite. I can orgasm faster and endlessly with my vibrator- seriously I could wipe myself out with it if I wanted to. This does not prevent me from craving sex with actual flesh and muscled men. I think people are thinking that sex bots are going to be like androids in movies- maybe a few centuries from now. At the moment, there is no technology that is anywhere near a robot that is going to fuck and suck you- you'll have to do it to the mostly immobile bot, you'll have to do the positioning, etc, it will just be warm and vibrate and squeeze and those things. The actual reality of AI is way less exciting than the hype. Tech isn't going to save us from ourselves- we have to decide among each other how society is going to organize itself around these biological realities.


@89: Thank you for the voice of reason.
The only thing I see as a potential problem for SHAGGIN is that she is in a committed, longterm, up-to-now monogamous relationship. I agree that it is indeed "fun to be a young horny woman with a desire for casual sex," and what she needs to do is to balance that desire and fun with her already established relationship. But again, just as in considering risks of STIs and pregnancy, women have managed to do that, many women have found ways to deal with lusting after others while in a relationship. The fact that she and her boyfriend have come to what sounds like a very reasonable agreement bodes well.

I do think it's a shame that she missed the opportunity of being single and young and horny with a desire for casual sex, and perhaps the couple should take a hiatus while each goes on a rumspringa, though of course, that carries the risk that one of them will decide that he or she doesn't want to return to what has been the status quo, when the 6 months or whatever is over. But there is always the risk in any relationship that someone finds something or someone else more enticing.

EricaP made the sensible suggestion that she limit or be conscious of her alcohol consumption, as SHAGGIN herself said that alcohol makes it harder for her to resist temptation for things or people whom she knows to be a poor choice ("I know not to have sex with friends and colleagues, but a lot of situations come up that make it hard to resist—especially when alcohol is involved.") But again, she is aware, and she has identified the fact that alcohol is a contributing factor--as it is for many people--and she knows what she does and doesn't want and what would or would not be a good idea, and I think she can handle it just fine.


It's my opinion that people who are engaging in casual sex should generally try to be sober. Maybe a little smoke or drink to relax, but still well within your faculties. I think this is good advice for everyone, but I know that loads of people do the opposite- each their own.

Her committed relationship really shouldn't be a problem unless they make it one. Taking him at his word, he's cool with it. She'll have no way of knowing for sure until they try a few things out- communicate, re-evaluate, etc. I got married very young and have had a very happy marriage with all the normal ups and downs. I also had loads of casual sex with other men, and I did most of it while using condoms exclusively. It did not harm either my marriage nor my health and I never got pregnant nor assaulted. Not to say that bad things can't happen- they can- and we have to follow best practices and also depend on a bit of luck. But being mindful of the risks and reflecting them and deciding your boundaries and putting some planning into it can all mitigate the risk. Aside from when I was very young, I have not gone out without the plan of getting laid and then surprisingly ended up in bed with someone. I was always aware of when I was going out to play or else I arranged things ahead of time online. This was a rule that I followed that I felt kept my head above water and kept me in control of my hormones. I don't think this would be so easy for straight men since it's harder to casually find a woman to fuck you on short notice, but the flip side to having to deal with all the increased risks and biological complications that women face is that it's also easier to get casual sex when you want it, even on your own terms. And one way to avoid the concerns she has about appropriateness is to figure out what your terms are and compartmentalize.

The terms of her open relationship are very similar to what mine were, (except that it was only one-way DADT- my husband wanted to hear nothing but I wanted to hear everything, whether or not it was true, which means I have no idea what he was really up to - aside from the fact that I'm sure he stayed within our limits- but that's OK because I wanted the stories more than the truth). For me, it was easiest to manage it by just having sex out of town. Her schedule may not permit such a thing so she is going to have to get a little more creative. Everyone is different, but for myself, once I started to compartmentalize my sexuality, it was easy to not be horny among neighbors and coworkers, etc. It was like training myself. Though I think my libido is pretty average, so this might not be the case of the LW.


No it’s not what most women these days are doing at all EmmaLiz, because most women take contraceptives or have some device inside them. And given she is going thru hyper desire, at the moment, then your points are just missing the timing. She is just newly come off the medication and since the age of sixteen has relied on it to prevent pregnancy.
And we all know the drill.


Sorry, @92 was for EL @89.


In Tasmania, which is the Island part of Australia, where a plane trip or a sometimes rough boat trip across Bass Strait are the means to get to the mainland, a woman can no longer get an abortion. She has to fly to Melbourne for that.


What "most women are doing" is managing their risk of pregnancy with their lifestyle, Lava in various ways. I didn't say exactly in the way she is- my point is that every women who has sex faces these risks and write erotica or just don't have sex is not really an option to managing that risk if one is keen to be sexually active and non-monogamous. And according to NARAL, of women who say they are currently trying to avoid pregnancy and are not sterilized already, around 60% are on some form of birth control. While that is a majority, it's not an overwhelming one. It might be a different in other countries. To be fair, most pregnancies here are still unintended, and most of them still result in childbirth, so I don't mean to blow off the risks- just to say that you can manage with condoms (I did for years) and there is a backup if something should happen to go wrong.


@94 Lava,

Yes this is shit for those women. It's like that in many parts of the US now too- one must travel hundreds of miles and sometimes even be counseled (requiring overnight stay) just for an early term medical abortion.

When we talk of how our society should manage (mostly) male horniness, the conversation should be much more focused on contraception and reproductive rights than on sexbots. You want straight men to continue to have women partners? Then you need to make it a priority to support women's reproductive rights and health care. Which of course is something that incels and the like don't give a flying fuck about of course.


Ms Cute - Well, we think almost exactly alike, although my cosmic vibrations are still in the camp that this is too much strain for them. If this were a Murdoch novel, I'd probably go with... let's see, perhaps that he's being too good and too accommodating, and she'll start to resent him for it.

Then again, it happens that I'm reading The Sacred and Profane Love Machine (which sounds more like a Wheel of Fortune puzzle than a novel title), which is the last Murdoch novel in which a "real" marriage actually ends.


@23 you feed them sugar. They have no ability to generate their own food. They also have a sticky patch to glom on like remora, but human sperm don't stay attached all the time, not sure why.


@20 then maybe it's PCOS. 10% chance overall pop.


@29 the real difference being is that you at least get breaks from it now and then - impossible for women in that state. Guys have limits, usually.


@20 generally if you have a psych response to a med it's because you are susceptible.


@43 I can't imagine a gyno so incompetent that they didn't tell you that on your first appt. Sorry you had to go through so much.

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