I'm with the LW's husband, and Dan's interpretation.

I have no objections to sex workers (so long as it isn't coerced). But I have to get the feeling that my sex partner is into me. A big part of my enjoyment of sex is seeing my partner enjoying himself too. So a sex worker who is obviously faking interest just to earn a buck is a total boner-killer for me. The only way I could enjoy a sex worker is if he sincerely had some attraction to me, or sincerely liked the sex we were having.

I think it is harder for a male sex worker to fake it than a female. A woman can writhe and moan and fake an orgasm, and most guys wouldn't know it's fake. But a guy can't fake a boner. If he's moaning and groaning and his dick's limp, it is pretty obvious he's faking it. I know I'm completely incapable of faking interest in a guy that I'm not into.

Maybe you can find the right sex worker. One who's sincerely into your husband and not faking it. But that is probably more work than just finding an interested 3rd on one of the apps.

Craiglist helped us find 3rds for our 2-some. We miss it!

@2 Use reddit for this instead. They have a large selection of subs post your ad and people will find you.

Dan's answer was so good, I'm not even going to snark on "gonna."
I even kind of like "gonnawanna."

Mr. Ven: there's there's the who/whom thing in the response, too, but I'm trying to not care about that anymore.

i have a better idea: hire a sex worker to randomly meet, and then spend the next 22 minutes (30 worth commercials) frantically trying to hide the fact that it's a setup.

I'm with hubby: I too don't want to fuck someone who isn't genuinely into me. It isn't that I think my dick wouldn't cooperate, I just wouldn't want to cooperate in this with my dick.

In my youth I enjoyed being a third for various couples. I was rarely into both of them equally. But I would fake it well enough that nobody guessed.

During ten years in New York, I had a very demanding work schedule, but I was still able to find several hundred women interested in meeting for a date, a few dozen of whom were interested in some flavor of sex. So I see no impediment to LW and his husband using a few apps to meet an enthusiastic third. In fact, I would have thought it would have been reasonably easy, which makes me wonder whether LW's husband is really interested in finding a third at all. In any event, LW's husband's position is totally reasonable. Not feeling good about having sex with a sex worker isn't a personal flaw. It's about wanting to do something intimate whose there for you and not money.

This is silly. Escorts and sex workers lay bare a principle of social psychology, that people respond to incentives. Yes, escorts respond to the incentive of their pay, but they can say no, and they're capable of making their own decisions. They don't have to be head-over-heels in love with either of you to play the role of a guest star. If they're willing, they're willing. That makes them a more viable option than nobody.

Yes, respect your husband's wishes, but your husband should be aware that sex workers are people with their own minds and feelings, and can make up their own minds about what it is they want out of the night.

Nobody is genuinely into you on night one. They're into something about you, but they are flatly incapable of being into the totality of you. If you want a guest star, ask for a guest star, don't demand a third you can both marry just to be with them for one date. Walk before you run.

I was thinking about @5 as well. Hire the escort for a night. Have it work like a random pickup. And then don’t tell hubby until after it’s over.

On the other hand, maybe hubby is feeling unwanted of late. Whenever somebody uses the words “to spice things up” that means the passion has temporarily or permanently left the relationship and somebody (if not both partners) is feeling sexually unfulfilled and unwanted. You’re both working long hours, it’s understandable. Maybe you two need to take some time for each other on a romantic or sexy vacation. Why not try a cruise or a gay spa or something? If you’re not that rich, how about a bathhouse?

@4, if you hate gonna nocute, you’d hate Australia.
Gonna catch you later this arvo at the barbie. Cheers mate.

@10 That's a horrible plan. Because it's almost certain to blow up in LW's face. Husband has already said he's opposed to the escort idea. How will he feel when LW deliberately deceives him into doing it? Or if Husband doesn't find out at first, what happens if Husband decides he likes the escort and wants a FWB relationship that the escort is not interested in?

If your plan for getting laid involves deception then it's unethical by definition.

I dunno...three ways are really tricky. I've been the third guy with a couple; I've been part of the couple bringing in the third; I've been one of three guys hooking up together.

In my experience, they're almost always naturally unstable: two of the guys end up into each other more and one tends to get sidelined. For myself, that tends to make me really obsess over ensuring everyone is getting equal attention, which gets in the way of enjoying the experience. Either that or I'm the third wheel (which is sometimes kind of a relief).

I'm not really a fan. They seem to be one of those things that's hotter as a fantasy than in reality.

"How can I convince him that paying for a sex worker is okay?"
Dear WAT's Husband:
RUN! Your husband does not respect your preferences and wants to coerce you into having sex you don't want. He considers your perfectly reasonable desire to feel desired by your sex partners a "hang up." He thinks a threesome at whatever cost (double meaning intended) is more important than your enjoyment of it.
WAT, paying for a sex worker may be okay generally but it isn't for your husband, so drop it. Now.

Don't bars still exist? If apps aren't working, these two could try cruising for their pegasus the old-fashioned way.

Reverse @1: It's my understanding that many, if not most, male escorts take Viagra.

Sporty @5: So you watched "You Me Her" too? (Awful, wasn't it?)

Sublime @9: "I would have thought it would have been reasonably easy, which makes me wonder whether LW's husband is really interested in finding a third at all." Ding ding ding ding.

Lionface @10: "That makes them a more viable option than nobody." For WAT, perhaps. Not for Mr WAT. (Add me to the list of folks who would rather not get [pussy] than pay for [pussy] for the exact same reason: I'm turned on by someone's reciprocated desire, and would be turned off by knowing or even suspecting that they weren't into whatever level of "me" inspired an initial attraction. That's not "silly," and saying so is a jerk move.

Misanthrope @10: "Guess what, honey? I just tricked you into doing that thing you said you didn't want to do." Really!? TERRIBLE IDEA.
Working on spicing things up with just the two of them is a much better idea, especially since Mr WAT seems less enthusiastic about the threesome -- "hours" of research should have indeed borne some fruit, so I agree Mr WAT may be overly picky as a substitute for just saying he's not into the idea.

I would imagine that WAT has some other motivation for wanting a sex worker for a third than 'I'm too busy'. It may be something like, 'I'm afraid of my husband being emotionally involved in the third', even if it's just in the moment. There may be something about the emotional relationship in their marriage, or specifically their sexual bond, that's threatened by the prospect of the LW seeing Husband fucking, or being fucked by, a third. And so, at some level, WAT is seeking to insulate the implications of the scene from the rest of his life.

In my experience (I'm going to talk about my experience now, which won't necessarily be the same as the LW's), the partners seeking a threesome want it for different reasons and to different degrees. Sometimes the top, in a relationship with a clearly defined top and bottom, wants a fresh, and maybe more interesting, piece of ass. Sometimes a top is by inclination more vers and wants to be fucked. In both these set-ups, it can occasion very ambivalent feelings in the bottom to see his partner doing these things with another man. Hot, yes ... but also queasy, odd, distressing, sometimes. For me, seeing my partner get fucked in a threesome has been something like seeing a parent drunk--a throwback, atavistic emotion of not being cared for.

To me, possibly because of this heightened sensitivity and not really with any strong textual warrant, the partner--handsome, kind etc.--came over as the top; the LW may have unprocessed feelings or premonitions of jealousy with the whole threesome thing anyways. There's nothing in the letter about the couple's sex roles or what they intend doing with the third--sucking off? one getting spit-roast? some change or no change to their usual positions? This may be because it's just not an issue. Or is it too big a can of worms to open up? 'Wants a threesome' was the LW's handle. Who wants a threesome? WAT or his partner?

@15. Bi. The effects of Viagra/Sildenafil vary. I can take a high dose (for me) and lose an erection fifteen minutes into bodily contact if I'm ambivalent or not really into it. Sometimes that's enough i.e. the length of the encounter. Other times, it can give me three hours of hard-on but I'll be unable to come. My take-away might be that the drug isn't by itself enough to simulate a physical interest in sex for escorts. They have to 'love their jobs'--or just have the bodies for it.

Harriet @16: "Who wants a threesome? WAT or his partner?" This is the key question. Most commenters, including myself, have read the letter as the threesome being WAT's idea -- and that they may be having trouble finding a third on apps because Mr WAT is reluctant. But if it's Mr WAT who wants it or they do equally, you may be right that WAT prefers a sex worker who will go away afterwards. I don't see any sign of the insecurities you're talking about in WAT's letter, though, so I'm going to point out that you're doing your usual reading WAYYYY too much into a letter and decline to join in your speculations on WAT's motivations.

Actually, it doesn't really matter who wants the threesome. Mr WAT does not want a threesome with a sex worker, therefore they will not be having a threesome with a sex worker. End of discussion. If WAT's reason for wanting a sex worker has to do with insecurities, he should talk about those insecurities with Mr WAT, not press for his own way.

@19. Bi. I agree that a sex worker is a non-goer for the reasons you and others give.

Only my first paragraph is what I would think of as plausibly inferred from the letter. The rest is just my personal views of gay male threesomes and speculation. Enough of 'you're doing your usual', please.

'Who wants the threesome?' is the right question to ask (not wrt to the escort possibility; that's kiboshed). It is quite plausible that the LW is horny, ideally wants sex with a third compatible with both partners but will settle for anyone--would settle for a less exciting or romantic escort. In this set-up the husband is dragging his feet. Or the LW could have the insecurities I've imagined. The last question he asked Dan was telling. It wasn't 'for a long-term established couple, is there such a significant difference between a paid and a Grindr-sourced third?'. It was 'how can I get my partner to accept an escort?'. WAT took the point that's germane as preemptively shut. I would read this as a sign of insecurity.

Harriet @ 16/17 - What I find strange about your interpretation is that, even though you admit your experience is probably not the same as theirs, you still frame and analyze everything as a top/bottom relationship, as if this were obvious. We don't know what kind of a relationship they have, sexually, and which position either of them prefers. They could both be versatile. The LW hasn't mentioned it, so he doesn't seem to think it's an important piece of info for the matter at hand. So basically, you're just projecting. Quite frankly, I don't think this gives us any insight into their problem.

In my view, the insecurities that threesomes have a tendency to bring up are pretty much the same whether you're straight, gay, a bottom or a top: it's the fear of losing one's partner to the third, either momentarily (during the threesome) or more decisively (afterwards), either because the partner has great chemistry with the third or because it makes you look like an incompetent lover (or any other reason, really). In this precise case, I'd say WAT seems a bit too overly enthusiastic about making the threesome happen no matter what, which might trigger Mr. WAT's sense that his partner is getting bored with him, which in turn would explain why Mr. WAT is putting more limits: he wants to make sure he's also part of the threesome, so to speak, and not just there symbolically so that WAT can cheat on him with a clear conscience. And WAT's pressuring him into doing what he's not comfortable with justifies Mr. WAT's more cautious approach, I would say. If WAT really wants this thing to happen (without ruining their relationship), he really has to take a step back and a long hard look at himself and his motives.

That said, what I really want to know is: where in the world is a gay threesome hard to arrange!?!

@15 No it isn't a jerk move. You know exactly what they're into you for, and the extent of time they're into you for. I'm not saying you're worse or somehow wrong not to want it, that's your prerogative, but they are up for doing things with you. I personally know a number of sex workers and they don't do things with people unless they can be into something about them on some level. Their skill as sex workers is partly based off of their preternatural ability to enjoy things about people. Otherwise their work would be unbearable and they wouldn't do it because it wouldn't be worth the risk.

In short, they're not the same as renting a sex toy or something. They're people.

Lionface @23: Calling a preference that's different to yours "silly" IS a jerk move. Any justification of said preference is beside the point.

@23 I should say that finances are a baseline incentive but there are incentives beyond that which of course develop, I mean it is a social thing they're doing.

Don't sleep with sex workers if you aren't comfortable doing so. Absolutely you shouldn't feel bad or silly about that. But it's an exaggeration to act as if they're all cold and calculating and immune to feeling things, or that all they must feel is exploited or grossed out.

@8: Several hundred dates and only a few dozen interested in some flavor of sex? Me thinks you were doing it wrong.

@24 Sorry. "This" was an impersonal reference to the situation and not any particular people or group of them based on preference.

For the sake of fair context, you've seen me call certain kinds of people far, far worse with good reason, but this isn't one of those times or issues.

I'm the letter writer and I appreciate the advice from Dan and from the other commenters. There were a lot of different perspectives that I didn't take into consideration. This is making me closely examine my method and motives for wanting a threesome.

We've been monogamous for a long time and I thought it would be hot to see my husband get all sexually charged with another person. No jealously here (or so I think). I wanted to bring a different & temporary sexual energy into our relationship.

I'm going to take a step back and drop the escort idea. I see now that pressuring Mr. WAT is a recipe for disaster. We're both still into the threesome idea, but I'll explore getting a 3rd in a more organic method.

@23 Lionface
Yeah, (tracing back) @10 TheMisanthrope's suggestion to trick the hubby absolutely WOULD be a jerk move.

I'm not telling you* that there's anything imperfect about acting upon the rationalizations/justifications you put forth (and everyone of us had already thought of), so don't tell me that those rationalizations/justifications should work for me. (And the apalling betrayal inherent in the deception would [as @12 Corydon wrote] be "unethical".)

*yet, but I totally could if I got to feeling like doing so.

@29 Westcoaster78
Right on, man!

@22. Ricardo. I could well be projecting. It is true that not every gay marriage/relationship is rigidly structured in top/bottom terms. My perception has been that, in America, there is more versatility, more insistence on the moral desirabilty of versatility and less universal butt-fucking than in Europe (ex. the UK). Intuitively, I've thought that more gay men in the States have been experimenting (they could be bi, say, or find a gay male lifestyle consonant with their political beliefs. Alternatively, in Europe, it could be a bigger step in terms of courting unacceptability, pariah status, to be gay, so a bigger proportion of the actively gay men could be non-negotiable, 'hard' or gold-star gays). I'm just throwing this out there. Someone could think just the opposite to me--or not have the same perception at all.

The LW describes his husband as 'handsome, successful, kind'. To me, this is the language of a younger man describing an older, or conceivably a bottom describing a top. A top might more readily, to me, use terms like 'hot' or 'sexy' or sexualize his partner's physique. Again, I accept this could be me projecting; I'm not saying for sure I have 'a read'.

I would have a different view to you in thinking that gay male threesomes have specific complexities. Take an MMF. The Ms will typically (not always) think POV the high point of the encounter. After 'foreplay', one will climactically fuck, then another climactically fuck. One man can think, 'it's my turn next' or e.g. 'I can see my wife getting fucked by this hot guy'. It may be satisfying to the woman to be fucked twice. It's sex; she won't necessarily be hung up on the undercurrents. I'm not sure it could ever be so simple in an MMM. As you say, one partner is apt to think, 'argh, the third is a better lover than I am'. It can be strange when a top bottoms, but this isn't particular to gay men--of course a straight couple can want a threesome so the man, supposing he's the usual top, can be fucked, with the woman watching.

My experience is that threeways have ramifications for the relationship, not that they don't--that they're a treat, or an out-of-time experience, or a way of letting off steam, or an amazing headfuck. They have been this very occasionally for me, but usually they've bequeathed my relationship a legacy of anxieties. In this case, it wasn't clear to me whether a possible alternative to threesomes was an open relationship (I thought this was possible). Supposing there is one partner who's less keen on the threesome than the other, I'd say 'consider opening your relationship up. It can be a lot less emotionally difficult, in the context of a marriage or life-committed relationship, than looking for something together'.

@29 Westcoaster. Sorry--our posts crossed, or I missed yours. Good luck. It's easy to set up a gay threesome--the people saying this are right. It can be hot to see your partner charged up wanting someone else; but this has to be someone your partner wants, as you know.

@29/Westcoaster78: I think if you’re both interested in making this happen you’ll find it can happen with just a little work and patience. I’m also wondering if you discussed your motivation with Mr. Wat. He might find to reassuring (and perhaps a turn on) to hear how you finding it erotic to see him aroused and sexual with someone else.

@26/biggie: Maybe, but I don’t think it’s a personal failing to want to have sex with fewer than half the women I meet in real life. And I don’t feel badly that one in three of those women don’t want to have sex with me.

@32. 'POV' for 'PIV' was so Freudian I'm not even sure I'm going to think about it-- ;p

@34 It seemed that out of several hundred women, only a few dozen were interested in sex with you - that's entirely different than out of several hundred women, there was only MUTUAL interest with a few dozen.

Chance of sex = chance other person is interested in you * chance you're interested in them. If the former is low, may want to evaluate how you're interacting with other people.

@30 Woah! Hold your horses there, I never said it should be a trick or without full consent from all parties, that's awful! Don't put Misanthrope's words in my mouth, I'm not on board with that! That's not just a jerk move, that's a form of nonconsent, that's abuse!

Anyone who knows me knows I have a near-obsessional complex about being honest when it comes to sex and sexual desire, have you seen me talk about the closet? I would never in a million years suggest tricking a partner into something they don't want.

@10 it's funny but highly unethical and perhaps borderline criminal (seems adjacent to hickeys false porn scam) and surely a relationship-ender.

Sorry about that, @36 Lionface, you're right, you didn't advocate trickery.

I blew it trying to trace back from where @15 it was claimed it was "a jerk move" for you to say @9 "This is silly". For a moment I thought I might try to add something about the exchange I backtracked through, but I think it's better if I just back away quietly.

@38 It happens, no harm, no foul. It just caught me by surprise is all.

@35/biggie: You’re spending way too much thought on my comment and sex life.

Harriet @ 32 - "I'm not sure it could ever be so simple in an MMM."

You definitely haven't had the same kind of threesomes I've had. In my relatively abundant experience, with three guys, the only questions asked are usually "Which orifices are available?" and "Which penises are available to go in them?" (And nowadays, thanks to apps, those questions are all answered beforehand). Then everybody tries to make the most of it. All the other issues that surface could happen to straight couples (and probably happen more often with them, as monogamy seems not to be such a widespread norm among gay couples, so they already know that sex and love aren't the same thing).

I absolutely think you're overthinking everything here, and that's where your problems lie (threesome-wise).

"As you say, one partner is apt to think, 'argh, the third is a better lover than I am'."

And that never happens in straight threesomes? Come on!

Lionface @28: Yes, quite recently you scolded someone for not being into a stinky dick, and today you scolded someone for not wanting to sleep with a sex worker, so I think you may want to work on your live-and-let-live-ness outside the realm of your pet peeve of gay men submitting to "straight" ones.

Westcoaster @29: Thanks for checking in, and good luck.

Curious2 @38: Tricking someone into sex they don't want deserves language much stronger than "a jerk move."

Ricardo @41: "I absolutely think you're overthinking everything here"
That's what Harriet does.

Westcoaster78 @29 - thanks for writing in! Since you say "I thought it would be hot to see my husband get all sexually charged with another person," have you and Mr. WAT discussed the possibility of him finding someone where the attraction is very strong between the two of them, and not worrying about there being good chemistry with you?

It's true that "Finding someone into both of us (and us into them) is hard." Would you be willing to mostly watch them (and lend a hand/mouth to Mr. WAT when appropriate), if that's what feels right in the moment? Would Mr. WAT be willing to have a threesome where you were mostly watching?

Fan, we have different definitions of 'scold.' It's hard to tell tone on the internet; I think you may be interpreting mine as harsher than it is intended to be. If I come across abrasive, that's a matter of tone.

Consider what my points have actually been:
- Men who sleep with men should be honest that they desire and sleep with men, at least to themselves and their partners, to prevent harm to themselves and their partners.
- People can be desirable even if they have a certain scent/musk; they should wash up for their partners but they shouldn't take their scent as a personal failing.
- Escorts are people with autonomy and a full range of feelings that should be respected regardless of their line of work.

@41. Ricardo. I say no to threesomes now. I don't want to see my partner boning some twink. He's welcome to it, but the twink wouldn't be independently interesting to me, and, as you say, the wheels of my mind would be spinning while I was waiting my turn.

I dislike these apps. I've texted my ass and they still want to see my dick. What if it's hanging (sitting) semi-limply for the entire episode? Is anyone going to say 'yes' or 'no' on the basis of my dick? That really encourages me to send it... snark

I've never been a guest in an established partnership's threesome and only in a bathhouse-type context ever been part of an impromptu three. These were the best experiences. You've had far more experiences than me and also more thoughtlessly happy experiences.... But one can't think one's way into being more thoughtless.... In all the relationships I've had, I've thought my partner was looking for something I couldn't provide with the threeway--especially when the third presented as masc.

I for one enjoy Harriet's (over)thinking. Their perspective is totally different from mine, and I enjoy it. For me, the comment section is only partially about the particular letter; it's also about everyone's reactions to that letter, based on their experiences. Yes, that means some projection, and some discussion of things that "we can't know" or "aren't relevant" to the LW in question. So what? As long as it's prefaced by a disclaimer like "This reflects my experience..." (which Harriet always does), it feels like fair game to me. Aren't we all here to learn about how other people feel about these things?

Just my two cents.

Thank you ciods. Of course I don't think I overread at all; as a lawyer it's professionally important to read just enough. When I did things abutting on the interpretive humanities, I saw that we couldn't define 'overreading': everyone brought their own perspectives to a text, and what was elicited for one person was projected for another. But I didn’t like that. In one sense, to me, what's there is what's agreed to be there in a deliberative process, like those of the law or practical politics.

In this case I think the guy who wanted the threesomes more wasn't the one I supposed. So the more modest, less projecting readers were more on the case. Why does he want it so much? Still to me an open question.

Lionface @44: In that case, please take my comment as a word to the wise that your posts often come across as scolding, so you may wish to adjust your tone if that's not how you intend them.

Harriet @ 45 - "In all the relationships I've had, I've thought my partner was looking for something I couldn't provide with the threeway--especially when the third presented as masc."

And that's absolutely fine! Generally, men like variety (I'm not saying women don't, but I would have no way to know). That's what a threesome is for (as a couple) : getting and giving your BF a bit of variety. There's nothing wrong with not being able to satisfy all your BF's needs, unless you overthink absolutely everything and see a sign of abandonment in every act (not only sexual) that's not focussed on you.

I'm finding it hard to believe that the LW has spent hours trying to find a 3rd without having any luck. I sometimes have 3 ways by accident, and I'm not even the handsome, successful, respectful, charming husband.

@50 It's more likely than you think, depending on many different circumstances. It's not unheard of for it to take some time, and I can understand why, if LW's husband is a bit shy or maybe a bit iffy about some aspects, LW would want someone patient and understanding and experienced in partners who are not as forthright as you or I. I'm not saying that's the case, I'm only saying there are scenarios where it's understandable that it could take hours.

Hell, a good friend of mine has a wonderful set of kinks, but because the dom/sub ratio is garbage, he has a hell of a time finding even single partners into it. I was really relieved when he got into a LTR, that guy deserves it.

It sounds like the issue isn't that the LW's husband has trouble with sex workers nor that he is particularly picky regarding who he swipes on Grindr but rather just that he needs to have some sort of connection with the people he fucks- he needs them to be into each other. Though we think of men as wanting to fuck anything that walks, there are dudes who can't get off on random strangers. If this is correct, then we can all talk all day about sex work and hookup apps and it's not going to make a bit of difference if hubby can't get hard without some connection to the third. I dunno but it sounds like they are looking for the guy version of a unicorn?

@49. Ricardo. My partners have usually been more versatile than me, and I've been conflicted about seeing them topped. It might be more enjoyable to me if I didn’t have a part in the scene.

Part of the legacy of being a 'late starter' with sex has been an abiding worry I am 'getting it wrong'. (I only really mean penetrative sex by this; I started fearfully, not widely out, in an age of HIV/AIDS). Hopefully very soon these worries will seem ridiculous to gay men, if they do not now--after all, good sex, the 'right' sex, is what two (or more) people want to do. But it might be worth putting my sort of anxieties--too much kissing? too little? too quickly out with the ass?--on the record, since they are things that bedevil some homos. (There are other dimensions, like my GQ-ness and sense of 'primary bisexuality'--something to say for people like Venn who aren't happy when I speak for 'gay male experience').

Ugh. Hookup apps are overrated in their ability to get hookups. Mostly by the media and the pearl-clutchers. This goes double for threesomes because, just like the LW says, finding one person attracted to both of you and into what you wanna do... well that just doesn't come along every day.

I know from personal experience. My wife and I have been searching for a bi dude into both of us, and it's been months of searching already. And it's not from a lack of bi dudes on the app I'm using either. Nearly all of the best prospects have simply ghosted or flaked on us. One guy seems to have deleted his profile entirely.

I had a lot more luck finding thirds through the BDSM social scene. This app stuff is bullshit.