All this but let's worry about terminology.

Also

What could possibly go wrong?

Also

Why not work with a person and a partner of their choosing? Good sex is not about being touched by someone but by someone we wish to be touched by

SCARED, I feel your pain, and upon reading your letter have started wondering if I might also benefit from surrogate partner therapy. Thank you Dan and Dr. Vena Blanchard, for both emphasizing that the focus is about healing and not primarily sex, breaking old, unhealthy patterns from bad relationships and / or traumatic situations. In fact, Dan---could this actually be a letter I might have written in to you and forgot all about it?

@1: Are you a rap artist?

@3: A really long penis does it for many women. I bleed every time I insert something when masturbating. My cervix is tender and bleeds if poked.

Ugh. My aged, somewhat senile, mother sent me a link to this column. Now I have to call her and explain that a partner surrogate is completely different from a gestational surrogate.

XiaoGui17, but she’s been with her husband a long time and implies this is a new problem. Vaginal dryness, PID, some STIs...all reasons to consult a gynecologist for new vaginal bleeding.

ATB: I once read an article by a woman who would use a clean makeup sponge to prevent bleeding during sex (usually around her period). She would insert it and position it as close as she could to her cervix, and claimed that it would absorb any blood, and she'd just throw it away after sex.
There are also soft mentrual cups that can be used during sex as well. Even if you're not on your period, they'd stop any bleeding and could help you out!

Yeah, I also thought the bleeding woman should go to her doctor to figure out why she had started doing that!

Surrogate partnership is a great idea and I hope it becomes more accepted and available,yet not abused.

ATB
Assuming your blood issues are period related and nothing else: I also had hesitations around blood, associating it with violence and pain. Once assured “I’m more sensitive and I enjoy it” it was easier to continue. Another idea that comes to mind is getting a box of synthetic latex gloves of your partner’s hand size and have them touching you as you guide the action and express your joy.

LIMP
Speaking of manual action, no need to be apologetic for a “his idea” hand job. Despite being the very first experience for many this very noble, intimate act involves trust, knowing your partner, vulnerability, possibly also balance of power, control, and so much more.

Lava – speaking of a (no) need to be apologetic, I have been unnecessarily harsh on you towards the end of the 40-16 thread. My apologies and thanks for those who chimed in.

In perimenopause some women can have surprise bleeding at any time, in varying amounts. It doesn't necessarily mean there's anything to be treated.

I'll second splitend's comment that a soft vaginal cup can be used to catch the blood during sex.

@4 XiaoGui17: I can certainly empathize with your vaginal bleeding. Even four years after a uterine ablation my cervical tissues are still tender inside.

@7 splitend and @10 EricaP: As someone who is presently somewhere peri-menopause and menopause I can attest to experiencing some bloody discharge surprises. Fortunately, mine have been mercifully light lately and are no longer the monthly menstrual nightmares I used to have. Thank you both, too, for sharing about the soft vaginal cup to catch bleeding.

LIMP, any chance the anxiety/depression meds are impacting your libido? My husband has trouble getting hard after starting meds and he used to be a porn star! (Literally)

We have him delay a dose if we know we want him to be able to have sexual fun.

I'm generally in agreement with #1: a surrogate could be helpful but it seems like therapy has not helped with this specific issue. Why not start with a very, very trustworthy friend? If there is a friend who is mature, understands what a true friend with benefits situation means (i.e., is still going to be your friend when you both move on) then maybe that's the way to go. Just as the Dr. said, go slow but a friend might feel less medical and a lot more personal and sensual.

LIMP hasn't had partnered sex in 10 years, he feels like a virgin, and being naked with another person heightens his sense of undress, yet he has been able to get an erection when masturbating alone all these years. His issue isn't depression or medication, it is his heightened psychological response to being sexual with someone after so many years.

My advice is to LIMP is to get his mental focus off his cock. When he is expending mental effort on his fears about whether he will get an erection, he won't, but as he found out, once he was able to concentrate on pleasurable sensations that shifted his attend away from his cock, he got hard. If he can 69 with his partner, that too will be a way to shift his focus from his cock to something else (i.e., giving a blow job), with the same effect. Once LIMP's heightened excitement of being sexual with someone wears off, his cock will perform naturally.

It's neurosis week!

Conqueror @3: Yes, that jumped out at me too. Bleeding during sex is not normal. He should see a shrink and she should see a gynecologist.

EricaP @10: If the issue is his penis is too long and hits her cervix, wouldn't a menstrual cup hinder intercourse by presenting an obstruction? (I've never used one, so I don't know how much internal space they take up.)

My heart goes out to both SCARED and LIMP. SCARED seems to have had similar experiences as every female human on the planet has had to endure from men (#MeToo), yet is having an extreme response to them. My first thought was whether she actually is a Kinsey 0, and if not, whether dating women would be less traumatic for her. Or perhaps she could date someone who is asexual. Aces find it difficult to find partners, and SCARED seems not to want sex for its own sake but because she thinks it's a requirement for "a relationship and love" and physical touch. I wouldn't want to dissuade her recovering from her trauma, but there are other options for her. Good luck, SCARED.

LIMP, on the other hand, has solved his own problem. Nipple play gets him hard, so make nipple play a part of foreplay. Perhaps, as a man who's only been with men, he's not used to the concept of foreplay? Once he experiences successful erections after nipple play on a consistent basis, I suspect he'll grow to be able to get hard in other ways. Another clue was the depression -- is he on meds whose side effect can be to lower libido? LIMP, make like ATB and talk to your doc.

I see others ran straight to the see-a-doctor idea for ATB as I did. Possibilities include STDs, polyps and early pregnancy. Please get it checked out. Unexplained vaginal bleeding shouldn't be ignored any more than any other bleeding should be ignored. (Also, Dan-- You're our go-to guy for sexual medical health. You dropped the ball on this one.)

First, I admit I'm the farthest thing from a doctor, I'm just curious (no pun intended):

I was gonna ask @4 XiaoGui17 ("My cervix is tender and bleeds if poked.") if she had mentioned this to her gynocoloigist, but then @11 auntie grizelda ("four years after a uterine ablation my cervical tissues are still tender inside") weighted in, so I guess long-term tenderness is yet another thing (some) women need to accept?

I mean, for my male body parts I'm used to tenderness being present while healing, so I guess this long-term tenderness is related the demands upon these tissues every time a woman menstruates?

LIMP, it's okay! If you're not hard, don't be hard, just be into it. LIMP, if you are reading this, relax. Do the hippie thing and just be. Enjoy your time with this guy, he clearly enjoys his time with you and your body. I don't take it personally at all if my partner doesn't get hard during things we do, because boners, err, come and go. There are many factors contributing to an erection or lack thereof, but the only factor that he's going to remember is how much you were into him. That'll be his takeaway. If all he wanted was a hard thing to play with, he could buy a firm dildo, but clearly he wants more than that, and you're it.

It's okay to play this guy up in your head as amazing, let yourself enjoy that, but that means actually letting yourself enjoy. Don't get in your own way over getting in your own way, that's what I'm saying. The more you can just appreciate that your experiences are good and uniquely yours, the more you'll feel free to let yourself get hard.

Yup I don't know why Dan didn't respond to the bleeding either. The LW writes it in a straightforward enough way, so one would assume that the bleeding itself is not the problem and that the LW understands its causes already. But as those things were not in the letter, Dan should've suggested that she see a doc if she hasn't already.

I had bleeding and tenderness during intercourse with my partner and thought it was just because he was big. It turned out to be a polyp and once it was removed sex got way better. I know women are just used to crotch bleeding and pain so it doesn’t always seem like an emergency but unexplained bleeding of any kind should always be investigated. It may be nothing, it may be something like what I had that’s easily fixable, or it may be something serious that needs immediate attention. Either way, you should know!

Perhaps the way to go for SCARED will be therapy with a surrogate partner.

That night when you faked an emergency because there was a possibility of sex? A better thing to have done would have been to have talked to your date. To have said--'actually I have a bit of trauma about sex and have to take things really slow'. Sex might not have been possible that night because it was too soon for you. Because you'd taken it off the menu. This degree of disclosure only scares off people who don't care about you, aren't interested--and you don't want these people anyways. It will take a lot of building trust between you and anyone else before you have sex. And your idea of sex needn't be prescriptive--it needn't be procreative or penetrative sex. A sexy glance, a light touch, a smile, a massage--all these can be extremely satisfying forms of sex for two people. Just suppose that things will start with your talking, then holding hands. Maybe you will tell anyone you have aversions that you want to overcome before you even hold hands. The person you want to be with will want to be on this journey with you. Good luck!

The guy freaked by the sight of blood is not going to grab a bayonet and enlist. He can put down the stun gun and let the lamb walk. (Or the knife--though in fact >80% of meat certified as halal in many Western countries has been stunned). Having sex is not like killing a human or other animal. Dan is right. The LW's partner needs to face his hang-ups. She needs to stand up to him and get him to face these phobias. The people musing on why she's started bleeding are doing well insofar as they may point towards a health issue. But if there's no new health issue, the consideration is idle. It's his problem, not a fault with her or her body.

18-Curious2-- Bleeding, tenderness, and menstruation are not related in the ways you're thinking. You need a more comprehensive lesson on women's reproductive health and parts than I can give you here. I mean, you don't need that comprehensive lesson if you don't want it. There are plenty of medical subjects I know nothing about, and that's okay. I'm not giving you homework that you have to rush out and do research on this if that's not your thing. But here it is basically:

Until we learn otherwise, it's normal to associate blood with a wound, with something being wrong, with pain, and with skin being broached in some way even if it's only a scratch that quickly heals. None of that applies to normal menstruation which is the regular sloughing off of healthy tissue in the uterus. This comes through the doughnut shaped cervix. Menstrual pain, if there is some, does not come from the blood. That has to do with hormones and contractions of the uterus. Think of cramps as being more like the pain of sore muscles than from a cut in the skin.

ATB said that she now bleeds a tiny bit whenever they have sex which is emphatically not during her period. Even if it turns out that that small amount of blood is harmless, it is indicative of something being the matter in the first sense of a cut somewhere or chafing getting so bad that the vaginal wall (think skin) is broached or a polyp or something else. For this, she needs a doctor.

According to the Mayo Clinic:
Possible causes of vaginal bleeding after sex include:

Cervical cancer
Cervical ectropion, a condition in which the inner lining of the cervix protrudes through the cervical opening and grows on the vaginal part of the cervix
Cervical polyps — noncancerous (benign) growths on your cervix
Cervicitis (an inflammation of the cervix)
Endometrial cancer (uterine cancer)
Friction during sexual intercourse
Genital sores that result from sexually transmitted infections, such as genital herpes or syphilis
Inadequate lubrication or foreplay
Injury to the uterine lining (endometrium) during intercourse, especially in women taking oral contraceptives
Menstruation
Pelvic inflammatory disease (PID) — infection of the female reproductive organs
Trauma from sexual abuse
Vaginal atrophy (genitourinary syndrome of menopause — GSM)
Vaginal cancer
Vaginal dryness
Vaginitis (bacterial vaginosis)

Get it checked out!

Harriet @22: That all sounds logical except that if SCARED's trauma relates to her "no" not being respected, how can she trust a current partner to accept "no" for an answer? If experience has taught her that saying "no" is ineffective, or if she was punished for saying "no" -- particularly if the previous person was someone she trusted -- faking an emergency may have seemed like a far better option. SCARED says she wasn't abused or raped, but she may have been gaslit into thinking whatever happened to her wasn't abuse. Survivors panic in situations most of us would find easy to negotiate.

ATB's partner has been refusing to have sex with her for what is between one-fourth and one-fifth of any given month? What the hell! He needed to get over that years ago.

@27 gatoverde
Excellent point. ATB herself completely accepts a lack of sex during her period, her letter ONLY addresses the rest of the month.

Tangentially, the blindfold Dan suggests wouldn't suffice during her period, since sight is not the only sense which would alert her BF to trigger his phobia.

Speaking of which, I'm gonna guess that as a "recovering Muslim", this is related to Muslim religious upbringing bullshit around menstruation (which includes blood coming from there) being "unclean" or some such bullshit if I recall correctly.

@16 BiDanFan (your comment re SCARED): At the risk of my sounding paranoid, do you think that's my problem, possibly, too? SCARED's letter read (to me, anyway) like something I would have written to Dan. I certainly have similar experiences having trouble with relationships.

sure, the religious stuff might have something to do with it. This isn't just Islam- most religions have weird shit about menstruation and purity of women. But look also at the way she mentions the pacifism and vegetarianism which makes me think this is more about his associations with blood (violence, eating meat). Sounds like dude has some serious phobia that goes well beyond the normal "menstruation is icky" stuff. Also, while loads of people are freaked out about sex during menstruation, it's far less likely to have your entire libido shut down at the sight of some spotting, right? Especially if the choice is fuck with some spotting or don't fuck at all- most dudes, even the ones with issues around menstruation, would go for the fuck with some spotting option. Dude might want a therapist to figure out his blood aversion/phobia, etc. What's he going to do if his kid gets a cut? I knew someone who said she'd faint at the sight of blood, even just a prick- never saw her do it but that's what she said. She had no prob eating meat though.

27-gatoverde-- More like 1/7 since a menstrual period is likely 4 days out of 28-29. I once ran into a man who didn't like sex with me during my period, and I was fine with that. That was never my horniest time anyway. I ran into more men who didn't care about period blood except as it affected general messiness and the need to do laundry. I never met a man who liked going down on me during a period. Again, personal preference, I understood. The one thing I would never put up with was a man who found my body dirty or disgusting in general. If there was a man who thought I smelled bad (when I was perfectly clean and healthy) or who didn't like looking at my vulva, or who thought there was something disgusting about menstruating even if I wasn't menstruating at that moment, well, let's just say I only ran into one, and he didn't last long.

Here's the greater point. I didn't write that letter; ATB did. I have my rules for what I'm willing to put up with; ATB has hers. She doesn't mind taking however many days her period lasts off. Fine. The problem now is that her boyfriend's thing about blood is affecting all the days, and she's not okay with that. The choice is hers. First stop, doctor. Let's say the doctor says that her break through bleeding is normal (I can't figure out how, but whatever), then ATB has to figure out whether she's okay with her boyfriend's irrational phobia.

@31 Fichu
I'm guessing that "he didn't last long" WITH YOU. But if you did literally kill him, serves him right.

BiDanFan @16 "If the issue is his penis is too long and hits her cervix, wouldn't a menstrual cup hinder intercourse by presenting an obstruction?"

I think so, yes. But in this case, his penis is no bigger than it used to be, and presumably he hasn't been hitting her cervix all along. What's changed is that now she's bleeding from PIV, where she wasn't before. So blocking the blood with a cup might be useful.

Or she could start using female condoms, so that he would pull out and not see blood, and she could clean up on her own afterwards.

I agree that it's worth discussing the situation with her doctor.

EricaP @33: Yes, to me the biggest red (ha) flag was that this is a new phenomenon and it's happening every time. Occasionally and after particularly rough sex might not be a concern. What has changed? We don't know her age; if he's hit her cervix all along and she's perimenopausal, that may be why it's bleeding now. But not every position enables cervical contact, and she didn't mention pain, just blood. Agree, doctor.

Re the menstrual cup, she says there's only a tiny bit of blood. I vote put a towel down and tell him to get over himself until they figure out what's wrong.

@26. BiDanFan. I don't know what issues SCARED has worked through in therapy. When she says, 'I've done lots of therapy', I took this to mean she had seen an accredited therapist--but might it mean that 'she had done work on herself'--that she had looked within and tried to understand the root of her problems? It may be, if she has seen therapists, that they have talked over her past traumatic experiences, and poor introduction to sexualized interactions, with her, but have not essentially affirmed that she can have a relationship, or negotiate the Platonic or 'safe' start of a relationship, on her own terms. This would seem fairly basic...? But, as you say, people who have been through abuse may not have the same sense of what it's reasonable to expect of dates--what's not too great an imposition, or ordinarily would be too vulnerable an exposure--than others.

The question was about relationship or sexual surrogates; and, in my view, Dan was correct to answer on the narrow issue. 'Yes, these therapists are legitimate; there are about seventy of them; it is a genuine possibility that SCARED could work with one', etc. But there could also be a space for giving very basic advice e.g. if it's a genuine relationship you want, you don't need to rush, you can try to choose a partner carefully, confide when you're ready, only move to the 'next stage' of sex when you're ready, and so on.

Only one lorgnette so far; I expected three.

Volcel routines can become quite entrenched, Mr Limp. Just making that sudden a change might well make it difficult for all the equipment to prove itself to be in desired working order, even when one is not coping with anxiety and depression. I'm also not entirely convinced that Mr 24 is the person you'd have chosen (having to guess some things from one or two blanks in the letter) or would have chosen NOW. When a considerably younger (although 35/24 doesn't seem too bad) and perhaps considerably hotter (although, if I HAD to bet, despite having so little upon which to go, I might put my chip on Mr 24's not being that high up in the Hierarchy of Beauty) person pursues one, it can feel almost as if it would be going against the code to say anything other than Yes, please (shades of QaF and how upset Ted got when Emmett declined an invitation from the aptly-named Beau - although that was because Emmett had made a bargaining prayer promising to give up men if his HIV test came back negative). But any half of a pair has the right to his own standards and preferences, and it is all right to consider oneself to be granting the favour rather than receiving it, even if nobody else will agree (shades of Torch Song Trilogy and Arnold's insistence to Alan, "And, if anyone asks, I'm the pretty one").

On the plus side, Mr 24 seems to have good instincts, and, Mr Limp, you've already learned something that will be of great use even if Mr 24 were to disappear tomorrow.

@31: I get it, but the barometer for fucked-upness is not, in fact, limited to how much the other party minds.

She may not mind her partner is basically declaring her body icky and unclean for nearly a full week out of every single month, But it's still fucked up all the same. and part of the reason that it is, is that there's no way to separate it from the fact of her being female. It's sexist and wrong.

And how much do you want to bet that mr. Squicky Squicky has been a problem getting head during the times that her vagina is just too icky to deal with?

*has no problem

For ATB, I’d really recommend trying Flex, which is a disposable insert similar to a menstrual cup. You can have sex while spotting or on your period with no evidence whatsoever. My partner feels similarly and this completely solved the issue for us.

Thanks, Bi, for your email. I responded and really appreciate your thoughts and feedback.
xo :),
Griz

Meh, I always get annoyed with people getting all pissed off at folks that don't like period sex. It's messy. It's messier for some of us than others. It's a problem if you are a woman that likes period sex and you are trying to have a sexual relationship with a man that doesn't like period sex. In that case, the woman is totally within her rights to exclude all men that don't like period sex and seek out men who do. In my (anecdotal) experience, there are plenty of men who don't mind. And if a man is freaked out by periods or has asshole issues around purity or cleanliness, then he should be kicked to the curb generally. But if he's just like "hey, I'd rather not- it's not as much fun" then it's only a prob if it's a prob for the woman. And if it's not, as in the case of this LW, then there's no problem.

But again, I've only ever experienced my own periods, which are painful and heavy and come with bloating and diarrhea and I can't imagine why anyone would feel sexy while on their period. But I get that I'm an extreme.

Nontheless, to have sex on my period, I'd have to lay down a towel and then stay on it- can't move around much, can't be spontaneous, would have to constantly readjust, and I'd flow all over everything and that would limit where I would want to put my mouth, etc- I'd just rather not bother. Plus as much as people like to act like it doesn't happen, for a large minority of us, prostaglandins come with diarrhea and gas which is decidedly unsexy for all. While my experience is different than that of other women, and generally I think people should be open-minded and try new things with new partners, I can also totally see that a man whose had an experience with someone like me would develop a perfectly rational and not-icked-out preference for no period sex. If it's important to his partner, I'd hope he'd give it a shot, but if it's not, why do people get offended when others don't like a thing? This LW doesn't have an issue with her partner not liking period sex. She has an issue with him not liking any sex in which blood appears.

Also can I just say that even when I have extremely light periods that don't come with any nasty bowel problems, I find it to be an annoyance to protect the sheets- the towel never stays in place and any change in position involves manuevering the towel as well, and it's sort of gross to put your body on old cold blood.

@EmmaLiz: well, she wasn't given the choice whether or not she wanted to say no to period sex for her own reasons. She doesn't say that she doesn't like it and that she is happy without it; she said that she can't even ask because of his extreme aversion, an aversion which he apparently has never bothered to even try to overcome. That's the sexist part.

@43 EmmaLiz: Period sex. Yuck. All I can say is that for you and everyone who thrive on it, it's fantastic, and the mess is minimal, more power to ya. As someone once cursed monthly with both dismenorrea (excruciating body pain) and dismenorragia (severely heavy bleeding) I have never been as fortunate (picture the hotel lobby elevator scene in the 1980 film "The Shining" starring Jack "Heeeeeere's JOHNNY!" Nicholson).

@Gato I get what you are saying, but in his case, his aversion is to blood in general, not menstruation specifically so I don't see how we can claim this is sexist. And while LW did not herself say she is against sex while menstruating, she also said she is not bothered by the fact that he is not into it, which seems more or less the same thing to me.

@Griz- I agree entirely. If I do it at all, it's towards the end of my period when the pain and bloating and clots are gone but the blood is still there lightly, and even that makes such a mess that the cleanup and prep is not worth the effort. Nice for those who drip drip drip, but yes, for me it's like opening those elevator doors.

I am a doctor and ATB needs to see hers. Bleeding with penetration = needs to check for cancer. There are other much less alarming causes but she needs to get it looked at asap.

Harriet @36: I didn't mean to imply your advice wasn't good. Of course it's good advice for anyone and everyone! My only point was that someone who feels they cannot trust their own instincts or decisions because in the past, that has not led to the outcome they wanted, may not intrinsically believe that they have the power to set boundaries for themselves which will be respected. I took "therapy" to mean seeing a professional counselor, but sadly, psychological professionals aren't wizards with magic fixes to our issues.

Venn @37: Good point that LIMP may feel intimidated by his younger and (currently) more virile lover. Perhaps he was taken aback by his confidence in asking for a handjob in a public toilet on their first date while he himself "feels like a virgin all over again."

Gato @38: Oh, come on. Being a little put off by the idea of blood getting everywhere isn't "basically declaring her body icky and unclean." Many uterus havers aren't too keen on the idea ourselves. And you continue to overstate the length of a typical period, and the number of "heavy flow" days, which are usually just a couple at the beginning of the cycle. Lots of us feel bloated and crampy and unsexy during these days, so it really is no problem to skip them. Are we cis women who don't like to have sex during our heavy-flow days being "sexist and wrong"? Thanks for mansplaining how we should relate to our own periods.

EmmaLiz and Griz, sympathies for your monthly suffering!

On a different note, anyone else impressed by Mr LIMP's chutzpah in asking LIMP for a handjob in a public bathroom on their first date? Having been socialised female, it feels rude and awkward to ask even an established partner to get me off. Even though that doesn't preclude further activity which benefits us both. I feel like people should only provide sex acts on their own initiative; that asking is selfish and may put the person in an awkward position where they feel pressured to do something they weren't in the mood to do. Reading LIMP's story suggests that perhaps there's nothing wrong with saying to someone, "Hey, I'm really horny, why don't you finger me? I'd love that." Perhaps I'll try it out soon. :)

Hunter @50: You've missed my point: My point is that this attitude is fucked up and I need to change it.

Hunter, no one wants to know about your semi. ;)

I've reread Dan's answer to ATB. Dan does tell Ms. ATB to insist that Mr. ATB see a therapist. That is good advice. That's good advice because Mr. ATB's phobia takes some untangling. There's unknotting good blood (normal period) from bad blood (whatever is going on with Ms. ATB during intercourse). I have to wonder what he's like with his own blood. Most of us at some point in our lives have some sort of accident that involves blood, hopefully not too serious but sometimes something that involves an emergency room and stitches. Taking blood is an important medical test too. It's normal enough to look away from the needle, and I know medical personnel ask if fainting might be a problem. I'm now seeing the ways that this phobia of his affects more than his sex life. If Mr. ATB freaks at his own blood, that would tell us something. Also, Ms. ATB tells us they have children. What's Mr. ATB like when one of the kids scrapes a knee on a sidewalk and needs a kiss and a band-aid?

@48. Bi. I didn't mean to give off the vibe saying: 'here's what you should have done'. It’s possible that SCARED would have doubted that her 'no' would have been respected. I get the feeling that her issues with sex and intimacy, as she understands them in her head, are far greater than she allows to appear in her behavior. She's considering working on herself with a relationship surrogate. Yet the sex she's had--possibly some time back--was not in a context where it was warm, nurturing or explicitly i.e. in how she and her partner discussed it an opportunity for personal growth. Does she offer up a boilerplate statement to anyone she feels an attraction to, or who takes an interest in her, 'well, I'm a little shy about dating. I need to take things slow'. I would encourage her not to be embarrassed about where she is. Where anyone is is where they start from.

Your suggestion that she might find a relationship with an ace could be where she ends up. People are under pressure--under a kind of societal bombardment--to be sexual, and it isn't right for everyone. My heart goes out to SCARED and others in a comparable situation, partly in that it isn't clear to them whether they want a partnership with affection, hugs but without genital sexual contact, or a sexual relationship as, it would appear, most people seek. It can be hard to navigate a path to the latter without pathologizing not wanting sex, and so my emphasis would always fall on affirming asexuality as an orientation with its own dignity and culture.

You missed the boat with LW2. Let's find out why she bleeds every time (it's not normal!) and work from there.

Holy fuck, echoing everyone else who says see a doctor already. Maybe she did, and just didn't mention it in the letter, but it sure gives the impression that hubby's dainty sensibilities matter more than her health and comfort.

BDF @49 " Reading LIMP's story suggests that perhaps there's nothing wrong with saying to someone, "Hey, I'm really horny, why don't you finger me? I'd love that." Perhaps I'll try it out soon. :)"

That surprised me. My impression of you (based on nothing but SL comments) is that you are the kind of woman who would not have a problem at all with questions like that.

@48 BiDanFan: Thank you. Fortunately, life has gotten infinitely better for me since my uterine ablation. ATB and every other woman and girl experiencing what I once suffered on a monthly basis have my deepest heartfelt sympathy. Ironically, my mother remained unsympathetic despite having silently endured the same horrible monthly symptoms herself. It could have been due to her embarrassment and not wanting to draw attention to all the intense pain, stains, and mess.
I so agree with so many commenters: ATB--see your doctor ASAP.

@60: My segue into menopause has proven to be a blessing, too.

Congrats in advance to this week's Lucky @69 winner!!

ATB has a triple conundrum on her hands: she's dealing with a pacific/vegetarian, a recovering Muslim ... and a man! I'd definitely try to encourage therapy for him in a way that reassures him in all three areas.

First of all, as a man, he has to come to believe that not all blood is equal. Vagina-owners will bleed, usually monthly, and it does not mean that they are ill, injured or dying. That may be his biggest stumbling block because he has no personal experience of bleeding without having experienced some form of hurt (even something as insignificant as a scraped knee).

As a pacifist who is also a vegetarian, he has to understand deep within that he is NOT hurting her, but that the presence of blood most likely indicates a medical reason (that we're all hoping she's getting checked out).

And, finally, even as a recovering Muslim, he will finally have to understand that vaginal blood does not make the LW unclean and him so unsettled, especiqally ir he thinks his penis has come in contact with it. It might help if both of them could talk to each other to see if the aversion could be reduced or eventually eliminated with the use of barriers (whether a cup or condom. etc.), probably under the guidance of a therapist.

LIMP, please stop acting like a stereotypical male! Because your mind is so clouded by stress and depression, you've already almost talked yourself out of having a satisfying sexual (and other) relationship with this younger guy because you won't TALK TO HIM!

Yes, you've been celibate for a while ... and your body has changed over time, so that you may not become aroused as easily or in the same ways as before. Use it or lose it isn't a myth. But - score - you inadvertently found a new route to satisfying stimulation via your nipples. How about actually asking for directions or help by getting your hands on a truly excellent manual on male sexuality. Learn what's out there where men's bodies are concerned. It's not just a case of I-have-a-dick-and-that's-it. Learn about your body's responses and, better yet, get HIM involved, too. Find out if you have any kinks or fetishes that will ramp up the desire. If you don't have a vibe already, get one. Try it on your nipples! Try it on your perineum! Try it everywhere, no matter how silly it seems.

Be honest! Tell him you've been out of the game for a while (even if we don't know WHY) and ask whether he'd like to try to join your experiment to find ALL of your "doorbells"!

Are you taking medications for your stress and depression? Many of them have the unwelcome side-effect of depressing libido, but you can try to restore it by adding Wellbutrin. So, you should visit your doc as well and be honest there, too.

Good luck. And, eventually, good fuck to you!

@39 (gatoverde)

I snickered when I read your comment. More than two decades ago, I had a hookup with a guy who'd mentioned he was Israeli but non-religious.

Ha! It seemed as if merely being surrounded by people who were so ultra-observant with cleanliness protocols had had an impact on him despite his protestations of being non-religious. So, he was fine with fucking (and already brought out the condom he'd hoped to use that night) and playing with me; but, when he told me he had NO interest in oral sex, in either direction, I decided I wouldn't put up with that kind of restriction. So I got dressed and went home. Such a shame, because he was cute and lived only a block away.

BDF @ 49
That handjob was way more than just “I’m horny” in a pvt bedroom as it occurred in a public place while others are watching and doing their thing, all are likely to entail additional sexy thoughts.

And I second RE’s @ 59 astonishment.

@49 (BDF)

QUOTE:
Reading LIMP's story suggests that perhaps there's nothing wrong with saying to someone, "Hey, I'm really horny, why don't you finger me? I'd love that." Perhaps I'll try it out soon. :)
UNQUOTE

It's not exactly chutzpah if nearly all gay male encounters could only be furtive sexual acts in out-of-the-way hangouts. But, even so, we're talking about male behaviour, especially gay male behaviour. [Hey, Ricardo, where are you? You should chime in on this week's column.] Most men grow up having at least some idea of how penises work. They're right out there. And there is an expectation that they are entitled to receive sexual satisfaction. Combine that with gay experiences and you end up with glory holes where, when one man sticks his dick through, he knows that someone - ANYONE - will blow him.

Compare that to most women's experiences where we still read that women are faking orgasms in this millennium, where women are slammed as sluts because their "number" is higher than their male partner's, where the only sexual interest they show should be for the male's enjoyment.

It's been only a bit longer than a hundred years that so-called normal women were perceived to be allowed to enjoy sexual satisfaction. It's going to take a lot longer for women to finally understand that their pursuit of an independent sex life does not make them nymphomaniacs, just as queer people's sexual desires didn't make them "disordered". Mind you, convincing some segments of the population is still an uphill task.

@49
Almost nothing gets me hotter than a woman asking me to do smth to her, or telling me what she wants to do to me (slightly less so the latter, as i am mostly a top, but still...).

Go for it! And may you find partner/s who love that as much as i do!

@68

That's one of the benefits of being a kinky switch, when you get to be on both ends of giving/receiving commands!

CMD @66: Really, you read that as there having been witnesses?? Erm, most "public bathrooms" get more straight men than gay ones -- and straight guys' thoughts at seeing a show like that would be far less than sexy. I don't think anyone would risk that on their first date, let alone someone as "extremely nervous" as LIMP. He said bathROOM, not bathHOUSE. I think it's far more likely these two guys found a stall. But hey, guys? Ever walked into a, er, romantic scenario like this in a public loo?

Helenka @67: Hmm, good point, but it's the 21st century, surely one or both of these guys has their own place -- and both are far too young to remember when "furtive" was the only option. Yes, I acknowledged that the idea of asking for non-PIV sex seemed foreign due to my being socialised female. And don't forget my handle. It's not generally -men- whom I have trouble asking for -- or ordering to provide -- what I want. It's not generally men who don't notice I'm horny, or get there first! (Does that clarify things, RE/CMD/Spunkbutter?)

Helenka @69: Congratulations on the magic number!

Unless it was a public bathroom at a gay club, that might be possible. I still think they were probably sequestered in a stall.

What are ultra-orthodox Jewish men and observant Muslim men taught about sex? What are they taught about menstruation? I've read a few books by women who were brought up Orthodox Jewish and got out. They talk about the laws of niddah. What are the men taught? I get that they learn that menstruating women are ritually impure. Are they taught that they're also disgusting?

I believe the distinction is important. Orthodox Jews are taught that mixing meat and milk is not allowed, but if they get out of the community, they likely find that cheeseburgers are delicious. Same goes for shrimp and bacon. Insects are forbidden too, but they'll likely think eating cockroaches is disgusting.

The guy Helenka in 65 ran into was probably telling the truth. He was no longer religious so he thought having sex was okay, but if he'd been indoctrinated into the idea that oral sex was disgusting, that would be harder to overcome.

(Two lorgnettes.)

I have a new front-runner for Game Show Moment of the Year, though alas I only saw the clip and not the programme itself. I presume it came from ABC, which has attempted to revive a few classic game shows on Sunday nights. The clip comes from whichever version they are now on of Dick Clark's old Pyramid game for ten, twenty-five, or one hundred thousand dollars. While I'm not sure whether I could imagine what it might take to raise the platinum standard of when Jack Klugman had to list, "What Peter Pan Might Say," this could be about as timely a moment this year as we may be likely to see. Also in the money round, the winning contestant from the previous round had elected to give rather than receive. The first category swung around, "People Whose Last Name Is Obama." The contestant thought for two or three seconds and then said, "Bin Laden." Sadly, the clip ended there, and I cannot report what happened next.

@69 Helenka (also a Canuck): Congrats on scoring the lucky number!! May all the best come your way in merry abundance!

Fichu, @72 I can't say specifically what men are taught, but in Orthodox Judaism responsibility for purity falls on both men and women. For instance, if a man sees a woman wearing something revealing, it is not her obligation to cover up, it is his obligation to look away. I think a lot of people mistake the idea of ritual impurity for eww, that's dirty. Ritual impurity referred mainly to temple activities, and there were lots of things that would make a man impure. Since the destruction of the second temple, the only purity laws that still apply are niddah. Judaism has a strong emphasis on boundaries. So there are things set apart for a family, things reserved to a couple, and things reserved to an individual. Sexual pleasure is one of three things Jewish men are not to deny their wives, along with food and clothes. As many women here have said, most of us don't feel all that sexy around that time. I'm guessing the reason those rules have survived so long is because women feel it gives them space for themselves and find value in them (there is no real benefit to a man to have his wife off limits even if she isn't actually bleeding, so if in 5,000 yrs women were that dissatisfied it would have changed.)

Present period stories, I got nothing. I never much liked having sex on my periods, everything felt grainy.

LW1 Needs to seek a partner surrogate, immediately, if not sooner. LW2 needs to leave her partner in the literal dark, or follow Dan's advice, if things must go further, and have him analyzed. And LW3 needs to let his butterfly go and flutter gloriously elsewhere, while he spends some time finding himself, perhaps with a couple nipple clamps.

Thanks. I agree with much of what you say. I like Richard Dawkins's explanation of why the rules have survived so long more. In God Delusion he talks about rituals becoming like computer code that replicate and replicate long past any actual use.

Thing is, it's easy to find sources on the web that give the party line, the official explanation. I'm looking for individuals to describe personal experience. How did you learn about xyz sexual practice? How did you feel about it when you were first introduced? If you changed your mind, what changed your mind?

(I remember learning about french kissing in elementary school. Yech was my first thought. I bet we all have similar cute/funny stories.)

@Fichu, Not sure if this is germane, but I've always assumed that people see any physical/sexual encounters between two people they themselves are not involved in, or at least half interested in as repulsive. And much like French kissing or trying beer, the proof is in the pudding. Not that everyone should be compelled to try everything, but that they be satiated by the idea that others are happy with their own results.

@78 And fuck, you're not talking about anything like that. Sorry.

@ 73, Venn, I think people stopped caring, that guy laughed off his inaccuracy, and parlayed it into more television appearances.

Fichu, the problem with the analogy between taboos against food and taboos against menstruation is that the first is not also within a larger societal context of misogyny. I can't speak to what Muslims or Orthodox Jews are taught regarding these things, but Hindu taboos around menstruation (about impurity) require the woman to not even handle food for the family or enter the kitchen, etc, while she is on her period. (This is no longer practiced in any household in which I've been a part, btw but it still is in traditional ones.) A menstruating women is not supposed to enter a temple, either, and in my experience this is still widely practiced even by more modern families.

OK so the reason I'm saying all this is to talk about the secondary affects of this. There are minor hassles like the fact that menstruation taboos means there is little thought given to these things about girls- they have difficulty finding facilities in which they can clean themselves or change pads, it's been one of the main reasons they don't attend school as regularly as boys. This is even present in the middle classes where you would not keep pads in a medicine cabinet in the bathroom where others might see them, and there are not trash cans in the bathroom where you can dispose of your pad. If you are accustomed to the ease with which you can purcahse, carry and dispose of pads and tampons in the West, it seems rather a hassle to have to carry everything necessary to do this there, and hide it all, then find a discreet way to dispose of it. I'm sure it's easier in your own home. Then there is the taught shame- you are taught young not to go into a temple because you are unclean. That sort of thing gets into your head. And of course the affect is on all children- why doesn't auntie go into the temple with us? She is unclean. Boys see this too.

But the larger point is to talk about how this analogy is different from the food one. After you go out into the world, the meat/milk separation is out of its context- it's easier to shift modes because you are in an environment that is wholly unorthodox. That never happens with religious teachings about women. You go out in the world and you can always find some cultural context in which women are considered shameful or dirty. And purity taboos often go along with (or cause) attitudes that insist upon discretion or modesty- they are rarely in a void. You also should cover up your breasts. You also should behave modestly. You should not draw attention to yourself. The whole message is that your body is a shameful dirty dangerous thing that is an inconvenience or temptation to others. It's much harder to pull aspects of this taboo out of context and reject them in a new environment as it is with food taboos, and I think this is becaues misogyny is everywhere.

BTW I know I'm conflating cultural taboos with infrastructural problems, but what I mean is that when you try to address these issues, the taboo and assumptions about women and their bodies and the cultural norms about how they are supposed to speak/behave create a blindness to any female-specific needs so those issues are not addressed- though of course this is changing. And you don't really bring it up, the taboo extends to talking about it. More immediate consequences (especially with older women) are that they will not ask for the medical care they need because they will not speak about their own body pain or suffering or problems.

So what I mean is that purity taboos around women exist in a larger culture- they are an aspect of that and it's hard to tease it out. I'd guess (pure speculation) that orthodox jews who mostly (these days in the US anyway) live in a community in which everything else is wholly modern and western other than their own practices would feel this much less- they could live in a way that their religious beliefs are on one hand and the nonorthodox world is on the other.

@82 EmmaLiz, I worked with a Muslim girl just after 9/11, she told me about how she felt forced to take off her modesty garments due to harassment, she was one of the sweetest people I've ever met. Her husband and his VERY Americanized girlfriend used to drop her off, on time, almost every day. I still hope she is doing well to this day. Neither here, nor there, I guess. But there were things I wasn't even capable of communicating to her, that I wish I could have.

" responsibility for purity falls on both men and women. For instance, if a man sees a woman wearing something revealing, it is not her obligation to cover up, it is his obligation to look away. I think a lot of people mistake the idea of ritual impurity for eww, that's dirty."

@tachy-

For myself, it's not about who takes responsibility that I believe is damaging about this. It's the idea that my body is itself some sort of temptation that cannot be seen or else bad things will happen. Obviously this message can be harmful to women- that your body should be hidden or not looked at. But it's also harmful to men- that they are so volatile that looking at a woman could lead to something bad.

Larger discussion re: Richard Dawkins and rituals, etc-

I think the tendency of modern atheists to tackle religion in a ultra rational explain-it-away way to be really reductive and also just pretty stupid in terms of a larger view of culture, philosophy and sociology, etc. Sometimes a scientist who's great at one thing can be stupid in something else. I think we see this with Dawkins and Sam Harris as well. Rituals don't have to have some rational reason why they went on for centuries, some of them are more primal than that and they usually don't have just one explanation. And these things change throughout time along with other things such as economic models and power structures in the community- then some rituals are just held on to and seem out of place and justifications are later applied. A lot of this is driven by emotions and they aren't all pretty and most aren't rational. In short, if an explanation for a religious practice comes together in a neat "that makes sense" package, then it's probably simplistic bullshit. The flipside of this is that those same Dawkins and Harris ignore or dismiss any of the philosophy behind religion as well- really they should stay in their lanes, though of course they've found that this one sells better.

@antiserumite, I have mixed feelings about that. Primarily, no one should tell anyone else how to dress, so let women wear what they will (headscarf or otherwise) for whatever their own reasons are, and shut the fuck up about it. This is really the only thing we need to say but I'm queen of saying more than needs to be said.

On the other hand, though I don't know where your friend was from or what her modest garment was, it's worth pointing out that in many places in the muslim world, especially in the middle east, the burkha, niqab, chador, various headscarves, etc have made a recent comeback due to the return of fundamentalism or the existence of an autocratic government- an din some cases they did not exist in that culture at all until recently, especially among the working classes. So there's a part of me that applauds these smart women in the west who are standing up for their right to wear whatever they want against Islamophobic bigots, then there is another side of me that wants to turn their attention to the fact that their grandmothers likely took part in movements to shake off these purity and modesty controls.

But it's not my battle as I'm not a Muslim. In India, especially in the north where the salwar kameez is still pretty much what everyone wears if they aren't in Western clothes, I usually can't even tell which women are Muslim and which are Hindu by their dress, though my aunties can. And I've only ever been to Lahore as a kid and I don't recall seeing hijab at all. My own generation, girls wanted to wear jeans or wear their salwars without a duputta which is a no-no. I was in Morrocco recently and very rarely saw women covering their heads, except perhaps to pull a shawl over it, and who knows if they were Muslim. Likewise, my husband worked in Indonesia for a while and I rarely saw the hijab there. In these places, when I see women in burkhas, I assume they are Middle Eastern tourists, but of course some of them must just be from local communities that are different from what I'm used to seeing. So in short, I think it's weird that the symbol of Islam in the West is something that is pretty specific to the Middle East and even then that has had a resurgence with the rise in fundamentalism and autocracy, and even then that women in the West would fight for their right to wear these clothing, but whatever. Women should be able to wear whatever they want and obviously your friend should not have been harassed by anyone, though sometimes I find liberals falling over themselves to support a woman's right to wear modesty clothing a little weird. Like they have no sense of history. Have you seen this video, it's been making the rounds in recent years:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZIqdrFeFBk It's a fun trip down a rabbit hole to look into what happened to Nasser and his movement and how the opposition took such a fundamentalist turn.

@86, I completely agree, wear what you want, but I wanted to westernize her so badly, if only to make her see what a shitfuck her husband was.

WHOA! Did I break the server?

Yes EmmaLiz, it is the fundamentalists who have and are becoming more controlling of women. You may have not seen women dressed that way in Indonesia, fundamentalism is however taking more of a hold there, and being so close, it’s a little scary.
Religions all seem to concern themselves with controlling women and seeing them as less than and not equal to me. It’s all bull, and has controlled humanity for way too long.
Yes, obviously there are forces in play which have created this world and universes around us. Humans need to believe that these forces point to a god who is there for humans. And religion has served as a great cover for all the harm done in its name.

Funny slip.. ‘controlling women and seeing them as less than and not equal to men.’
Australia has just had a change of PMs. Again. The new one is borderline fundamentalist Christian, who didn’t want same sex marriage to come in last yr.
Marx got it right ‘ religion is the opiate of the masses.’

Even the Buddhists say your story happens because of past life karma. I am a Buddhist in as much as I follow how the mind is the architect of our actions and thoughts and we can train it.. as for past lives, I step around that. Anything is possible because who knows how this all got going. Beyond human understanding, how it all began. And being such arrogant creatures, we’re not happy to sit with that.

Fuck off with that Hunter. Men should be able to wear anything they like as well, and it's the same fucking conservative bigots trying to control what men and women wear so stop trying to pretend this is somehow the fault of people who seek to destroy patriarchy. I don't know where you live, but women in some Western countries are harassed and attacked for wearing headscarves and the like, and some countries politicians are involved in enacting and enforcing bans on Muslim women's clothing. And besides, I said nothing at all about patriarchy- this is some shit you brought up to this conversation so you can ride your hobby horse right off into the sunset which is what the internet is for after all but don't pretend you aren't laughably whining yourself.

Thanks for the answers.
54-Anti-- If I understand your post correctly, the Muslim girl you worked with had a husband who had a girlfriend. Am I to understand that the girlfriend was like his second wife or would have been his second wife in a Muslim country only in the U.S. she had to be considered a girlfriend? And your co-worker felt forced to take off her head scarf, and the girlfriend was very Americanized but still okay with bigamy? I'm not doubting you. It just seems like an interesting set-up. I wish I could interview the players.

I will note that as horrible as fundamentalism is for women, it can't be that great for men. Imagine marrying and knowing that every time your wife has sex with you it's because she's "submitting" to you and never because she wants to and finds you sexy.

That’s for me EmmaLiz, Hunter won’t quit SL stalking me. For yrs now. He’s such an embodiment of all the ingrained assumptions of his sex, he continues to be the gift that keeps giving.
Do you think some of these men Fichu, men in fundamentalist countries, gives a toss how one or more of their wives/ women feel? I’m sure they keep a few ones they are really into. The rest, they rear the kids and tend the house/s and are there to keep letting women know who the bosses are. Also, these men run the show politically. Their intimacies amongst their own sex unhindered by those pesky distracting women.

The Saudi Arabian boss, he’s thinking to execute a woman activist.. they don’t want no feminists at their doors.

@EmmaLiz, Hunter sees all interactions between men and women as a war and he is convinced that women are "winning." He refuses to see things any other way than he wants to, which is that poor men are at the mercy of women who use their sexuality to torment men or something. Did you ever wonder why women wear skimpy sundresses that allow their bra straps to show? It's to drive men crazy with the evidence that they wear bras and those bras are covering breasts. Or at least that was Hunter's take on it. It couldn't possibly be that if you're a women who can't go braless and you want to wear a spaghetti-strapped sundress, you just refuse to be ashamed of the fact that you need to (or choose to) wear a bra and that means that the straps show and so the fuck what!

Hunter doesn't believe there is such a thing as the patriarchy, and mock-blames everything on it in a way that you can almost read the eye-roll. He also doesn't believe that rape culture exists. He's asked what it is or what it can mean so many times and several of us patiently tried to explain it--and he simply refuses to accept what women say as truth if it contradicts his view of the world--in which a straight man's mission is to somehow trick or wrangle sex out of a woman. I ultimately came to the conclusion that Hunter doesn't want to acknowledge the existence of rape culture because then he'd be forced to admit that he has raped women; the only rape Hunter acknowledges is violent rape, preferably by a stranger in an alley.

He is an asshole of the highest magnitude, and I am grateful that he uses an avatar, as that means I can choose to just skip over his pathetic posts.

@nocute, thanks. I usually ignore him too, though lately he's cracked a few funny one-liners so I thought maybe he was having a growth moment. But I can't remember a time when he responded directly to something I said which is why I responded this time. Seems like he was talking to Lava though, so I'll go back to ignoring.

@Lava- I should've mentioned that it was the early 00s when I spent time in Indonesia, and even then, we were rarely out of the city. So I don't mean to make generalizations and I know the same fundamentalism is growing there as well, often from the same sources. It's just a part of my larger point which is that Islamic dress has always been regional and didn't always include things like burkhas or the hijab in most places, and most Muslim countries followed along similar trends as non-Muslim countries regarding traditions of dress as they industrialized and developed infrastructure. What we see happening in the past recent decades is a regression to fundamentalism which has historic causes, not a natural outgrowth of a religion. But really I'm talking about things I don't know too much about and have no dog in that fight anyway, not being Muslim myself. Just as a feminist and a history buff, I consider these things with more opinions than knowledge, lol.

..........and this week's Lucky Hunsky Winner is..........!!!!

@93 EmmaLiz, @95 LavaGirl, & @97 nocutename: HUnter's just pissed that he didn't score the HUnsky--again.

@93 EmmaLiz, @95 LavaGirl, and @97 nocutename: Agreed, and you three GO, girls!
@100: I was going to go aww, shit about my typo after a few glasses of red wine, but in this case, it actually fits, somewhat amusingly.

Enjoy your wine, Griz and congrats!

@102 EmmaLiz: Thanks--it's definitely a movie night for Griz.

Nocute @97: Even if you're a woman who COULD go braless, you might prefer not to. Ironically, perhaps so your nipples won't show. So, wear a bra and torment men with the sight of your bra straps; don't wear a bra and torment them with the sight of your nipples. It's almost as if women can't win.

And yes, Hunter, feminism also speaks up for men to wear whatever they want. Skirts. Makeup. Why shouldn't men wear these without fear of queer-bashing? And if you've ever worn garments that are identical to men's (jeans, jackets) except that their pockets are tiny or nonexistent, and if you actually -read- that Guardian article, you'd realise the history of pockets is indeed rooted in sexism.

Griz, congrats on the Hunsky, not the Hunter-sky!