Not even sure what you mean @115, Sportlandia. I don’t see myself as far anything, and not being American, my experiences of black fellas are very different.
Australian Aborigines have inhabited this continent for over sixty thousand years, and they knew how to deal with our harsh bushfire conditions. And looked after this beautiful land.
How it might have been if the whites had learnt from the blacks from the start. Now we are listening, some of us.
@97 BiDanFan: Did you see my comment in @82 (re my @111 to your @103 in SL: Stressfest)? I don't want to go off topic here. Please email me when you can. I would really appreciate your thoughts and ideas on something.
Sporty @114: No, we far lefties have lives and were all out having fun on a Friday night. :)
I’d have answered Sportlandia’s comment, if I could follow its meaning. You city folk take it to different levels of complication.
@114: Seriously, you know us better than that, Sporty. Like BiDanFan says, we were out having fun. Weren't you?
@118; BiDanFan: Thank you for your email. I emailed you back. Big hugs, positrons, and VW beeps! ;) Griz
@118 @120 congratulations on being cool and popular guys I don't know what that has to do with the question.
It's been centuries since drag was a popular way of excluding women from the performance arts. I thought Shakespeare required drag, but I don't think he did blackface. It's only been decades since blackface was a popular way of excluding black people from the performance arts. Both usually present as overblown characterization of the oppressed group. Some people might wear a swastika as an ancient symbol of peace or dress up in blackface to celebrate black people but they seem oblivious to recent history.
I don't think that Dan does well on financial questions. Does commitment mean marriage, or joint mortgage, or simply developing a roommate agreement with appropriate rent for the area if the home equity is entirely hers.. He should not pay half if he is not receiving any home equity. Financial counseling?
And is good practice to consider any mentally physically or financially risky plans while not manic.
@121 (re @114): Are you afraid of silence, Sporty? Sometimes silence can be quite peaceful. Is it a fear of abandonment?
@122: Don't you know it's not polite to point, Hunter?
Everything, Sporty @121 - you were curious about the lack of replies to your comments, and some of us didn't reply because we were otherwise occupied. (I've stayed out of the discussion because it seems America-specific, and I haven't lived there in so many years that I'm not familiar enough with what goes on there to have an opinion. Besides, I was recently called a racist for making generalisations about a gender, thus showing me that this is not a rational area of debate.)
"I thought Shakespeare required drag, but I don't think he did blackface"
Didn't he? The first actor to play Othello in the early 1600s was Shakespeare’s company leading man Richard Burbage, who was a white ginger guy. We don't know for certain, but most historians believe he used some sort of dark makeup to play the Moor of Venice.
But I do agree with your general point (if I understood it correctly), that drag and blackface do not have the same historical connotations, and cannot be considered equally offensive as a result. Drag hasn't been used to oppress and exclude women for several centuries, whereas blackface has been used to oppress and exclude black people in living memory. The relevant context is recent history.
@125 you're commenting now, but still don't have a reply. So i'll go ahead and bank that internet point, thank you.
Sporty @129: If "I didn't really care enough to comment" constitutes a point for you, then okay. Enjoy it.
Racism, like sexism like homophobia and transphobia and religious bigotry etc, needs to be cut out in all its forms, from using blackface or the n word to seeking justice by making the state accountable for its police murders, etc etc.
Dadddy @128, does it really have to be either one or the other? How hard is it to simply refrain from making dehumanizing comments or jokes about ANY minority group? Would it truly be a monumental task to stop defending blatantly racist practices like blackface and Confederate flag-waving as either historically significant or unoffensive to anyone save the white-leftist "mobs" that apparently rove your neighborhood, while also working toward substantive reforms to overcome the systematic racism that is rampant in US culture - such as on the critically important issues you mention, voter disenfranchisement and biased law enforcement?
If you have a significant intellectual disability, or if you have a neurological problem like Tourette's syndrome that makes you unable to avoid blurting out random comments regardless of whom they might hurt, then maybe it really is impossible for you to practice being non-racist in small ways every day, while also focusing on trying to change the bigger picture over the long term. For the rest of us, though, I think it's a manageable and worthwhile challenge.
Also, "going after hapless whites"...definitely time to check your privilege on that one.
@129: You, and presumably Hunter et al want a reply, Sporty?
Okay, here's mine: PTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHHHT!
To extend the Shakespearean tangent...
"Somewhat of an oxymoron, DRAG stands for DResses As a Girl"
Actually, it doesn't. As in the case of "posh", "tip", "cop" and other such words, the acronym origin is a myth. I, too, remember hearing that "drag" came from "DR.A.G.- Dressed as a Girl", a supposed footnote on some Shakespearean manuscripts, indicating a male actor playing a female part. I thought it sounded dubious back then too (why on earth would you acronymise that phrase like that?), and yeah, it's fake. The real origin is uncertain, but is thought to come from 19th century theatre slang, and refer to the long dresses of pantomime dames dragging on the floor. So I guess you could say it's still somewhat of an oxymoron in the case of drag kings :)
You seem to be by passing Dadddy, that Black American citizens have been traumatised by White American citizens, for many many many many many years. And it continues. It’s not the same here in Australia, though it continues too.
If Black people, who have suffered so very much at the hands of white people ask us whites to not do blackface, then surely we can fucking listen. You and your etiquette bull shit, is just more hot air.
Lost Margarita@ 134
Indeed very likely to have originated in the theatre world as you point out, yet at some point took a turn to indicate a specific act of that genre.
BTW, ever watched the Hansel and Gretel production of the Seattle Opera few years ago? The witch appeared in a very grotesque form of drag, one that infuriated cis and trans women alike.
CMDwannabe @136, I think of 19th century British pantomime dames as the natural precursors of modern drag queens, so it makes sense that the word itself would originate with them. All the hallmarks of modern drag performance are there - the hair, the make-up, the mannerisms, the innuendo, the audience participation, the slapstick comedy... Certainly a very different genre of female impersonation, compared to Elizabethan theatre and Baroque opera. Makes sense, when you consider that those earlier conventions developed at a time when women were simply banned from the stage, so the male actors playing female parts were aiming for some degree of pathos and credibility in their performance, even in the comedic roles. By the 19th century, women could act on stage, and cross-dressing (both MtF and FtM) was mostly relegated to variety theatre, where it was played for laughs and subversion.
Not being in the US, I haven't seen the Seattle Opera production, which is a shame - a Google search shows an amazing stage set!
You can get a glimpse of the yet another grotesque, evil transwoman at 0:20.
CMDwannabe @138, could you explain a bit more what made that particular performance offensive, and why you'd read it as "yet another grotesque, evil transwoman"? Or link me to any press reviews that talk about this? I feel like I'm missing some context. Or maybe, as an (adopted) Brit, I'm more inclined to interpret something like this as just "panto" (rather than anything to do with trans representation), since that's still very much a thing over here?
Lost- It was an unnecessary, supposedly funny grotesque “drag” added to the witch character 20 years ago or so in some European productions in order to be cool. The Seattle production, among other images, showed the hairy potbellied actor bouncing the grotesque way-oversized fake breasts (and much to my horror doing it once again at the end of the show.)
For me it was a reminder of the evil transwomen characters I grew up with, their evil ways and pathetic looks, dreading the thought of children still growing up with such images. It was also during the last presidential election two years ago, with bathroom wars flaring up for no reason.
I contacted the opera ahead of time and was challenged go watch the show. I went en femme, and unfortunately my initial worries came to fruition towards the end of the show.
I (very politely) voiced my concerns during the post show and got a lot of support. Some cis women mentioned the witch’s performance as offensive to all women.
@141: Ohhhhh. Now I get it. Your argument is that you have NO point!
Here's another Bronx cheer, Hunter; a nice, big wet one. Enjoy it: PTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTBBBBBBTHT!
CMDwannabe @140, if the character arc was that the witch at first appeared as a friendly woman, luring children in with sweets, and was then revealed - implicitly or explicitly - to be an ugly, predatory man, then yes, I can certainly see a parallel with the conservative anti-trans rhetoric around bathroom bills. I've noticed that the male actor wasn't wearing his wig in the final scenes in the clip you linked, so I'm wondering if this was part of the "reveal". If that's what they were trying to do, I'd be critical of it, too.
That said, I can't condemn a play I haven't seen. But I get your point.
Last question here whiffs of a TERFy opinion and no background. Drag performers have a particularly long and storied history of what we would now call queering gender and gender expression. That ability to play with gender opened the door for a wide range of expression that we are only just starting to see blossom. It really doesn't take much today to find someone willing to be as offensive to trans people as they possibly can manage, and although drag performance itself is much more mainstream than it once was, we aren't out of the gender expression woods, and we won't be for some time. Drag is a valuable front line for queer social capital, and it has been a very long and difficult time coming.
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