I am anti-murder but is it wrong of me to be looking for the part where he gets together with his neighbor to murder her husband for the insurance money?


It would make for a great Lifetime movie, though. Let's star Renee Russo as the married neighbor with Jake Gyllenhaal as the L-dub (loved them in Nightcrawler). It starts off innocent with the watchers wishing they were Russo. Then Gyllenhaal makes a pass. Russo's flattered at first, and gives it consideration (fantasy sequence opportunity...), but decides better. Then Gyllenhaal gets obsessed and it turns dark, allowing the viewers to recede from the fantasy back to mild satisfaction, or at least less dissatisfaction, with their middle class lives.


@1 I like your thinking!


Old neighbour lady? Watch it Dan, not far off sixty yourself.



Thank you, but it's not really my thinking. Isn't that the plot for Body Heat and Double Indemnity probably a bunch of other movies?

I get the impression that that's a darker plot than you would get on Lifetime. I'd be okay with Renee Russo, except that she was in The Intern a year or two ago. Granted, it was a supporting role, but it starred Anne Hathaway and Robert De Niro. It'd have to be someone like Catherine Bell or Lisa Whelchel. And I don't think I'm buying Jake Gyllenhaal at this point, either. Maybe the guy who played Mallory's boyfriend on Family Ties?


Though id really like to be light hearted, all I can think about is how careful I need to be around my male neighbors... I'm seriously not convinced this woman is even flirting. She might just be friendly. It's that fucking bad.


Oh darn, I thought the guy was sixty, which would have put the neighbor well into her eighties. That would have been so much cooler; now he's just creepy.


@5 I'm ready to compromise on casting. I know shit for current actors.


Good you appreciate an older woman LW, and I have a different theory to Dan. She reads you have some dirty fantasy going about her and the flirting is her response. However, she is flattered, rather than interested, hence she only flirts when your wife is around.
Not sure what would be in it for her, LW, unless you’re thinking cash. If an older woman wants to go with a much younger man, she doesn’t want to watch him pleasure himself, she wants to jump on.
This is best kept in fantasyLand.


There aren't enough details here to be positive that the flirting isn't directed at WOW's wife or (as @6 suggests) to confirm that the neighbor is actually flirting at all. My guess is that WOW is just out of touch with reality.


@2 Whoa, whoa, whoa—this is Lifetime and we're going way over the casting budget. Let's start with Kelly McGillis and Freddy Prinze Jr. and work our way back.


OK wait a minute. This guy is married and not allowed to step out of the marriage I assume since he doesn't want his wife to know. The older neighbor is in the same situation I assume again since he does not want the husband to know.

So... here's a situation in which cheating could potentially blow up two marriages, and talk about drama, it's the neighbor so it's not likely to be kept separate from real life, kept a secret, etc. Which ethical concerns about cheating aside, would make it stupid to pursue this situation. And what he wants is extremely specific anyway and he has zero evidence that this is something the woman would even be interested in- I mean if I were going to risk blowing up my marriage and my home I'd sure as hell expect to get more out of it than standing around in uncomfortable shoes while a guy jacks off, ho hum.

What grown man thinks this way? It's a funny letter, but if it's real- dude is a blooming idiot. I bet he's just writing down his fantasy, but if he's seriously considering this, it explains how you get guys delusional enough to think random women in public want to see them hunched over their dicks.


@12: Pretty much everything you wrote, EmmaLiz.


In a twist, it turns out that the neighbor and the wife are having an affair. They are nervous that the LW will find out, and so anytime all three are together, the older woman tries to cover up the women's chemistry by flirting with the LW. It's overcompensation. So when the wife is not around, the neighbor doesn't really even notice him. Even though True Crime is hot right now, I don't like murder and besides I like happy endings, so in my version, the hot elder husband has great thighs and a wardrobe full of stilettos & dresses. Our LW is peaking in the window one day hoping to catch a glimpse of the wife, but instead finds himself jerking it at the husband who is more than happy to pose for him. And all four live happily ever after with two houses between them.


Mizz Liz - "Peaking in the window" may make the short list for Homonym of the Year.

I couldn't recall anything like this with an older woman, but it did make me think of a television film called Murder by Natural Causes, in which Hal Holbrook's character foiled both halves of a double-barreled plot of Katherine Ross' character to have one of her two lovers murder him, only for the film to end just as he was about to murder her.



@5: To quote Dennis Reynolds, almost any movie from the mid-to-late 90's!

@6: Yikes; sorry to hear it. :-/

@14: Love it!

Nothing real to add, because either wank-letter or DON'T YOU IDIOT!!!, which have already been covered.


Sometimes flirtation is just flirtation. (Freud)


Freud you say?
I think you guys are being a bit harsh on this guy. She may be an attractive and still sexually active wiman. It is naughty of her to tease him.
LW, dirty as all this may be, in reality it would be a complete catastrophe. You are married and neighbour to this woman. Enjoy the fantasy as long as you can see clearly that’s what it is. She may very well be doing the same thing, who knows. I’ve got two older men as neighbours, neither of which I’d ever invite into a fantasy. Not sure how I’d fare next to an attractive younger man. So don’t be hard on yourself, you’re just picking up on her sexuality and that’s not a bad thing.


‘ neither of whom I’d ever invite... ‘
Freudian slip too, writing wiman, instead of woman, because she would be beyond menopause and no longer defined by her womb. Free at last.
I know there is word about that All women crash out sexually once they go thru The Change, and it’s not true.


Sometimes fantasy inspired masturbation is the way to go. This is one of them.


I'm usually able to decode Dan's neologisms (or typos) with relative ease, but am flummoxed by "misgroked". Not even Google seems able to help. Anyone?

@11, @16 my money's on wank letter, definitely. He just wanted to type the fantasy out and have someone else read it.


Stacy's grandma has got it going on! Watch out, Stacy's grandma, this innocent flirting of yours could come back to bite you on the mature ass. WOW, what do you do about this? You do what people with impossible crushes have done since the dawn of time: you privately masturbate to thoughts of her, and you never say anything to anyone about it. Dude.


Sarah @6: Yes, exactly. There is going to be a LOT less cross-gender neighbourly friendliness going on as a result of this letter. Shudder.

Alkmen @21: "Grok" means to completely understand. It was coined by Robert Heinlein in the 1960s novel Stranger In A Strange Land. (Thank you Google, I'd remembered it was a sci-fi novel but didn't remember which one.) With that root word you should get the meaning of Dan's mis-grok-ed -- misunderstood, took the wrong way.


“She likely further assumes you wouldn't be interested in an old lady like her, WOW, seeing as she's old enough to be your mother and all.”

Why is that? I’m 52, but look older, and am still very sexually active. I’m often surprised by the winks and insinuations that I’m too old to enjoy sex. Almost always by people I don’t know well.


How do you know she’s a grandmother Fan @23, and who is Stacy? Any woman at forty, even younger, can be a grandma, do you title them as such when they write in.
And why do you think this man is creepy, seatacked @7. Richard Gere is sixty nine and he and his early thirties wife have just had a baby. Men get on with women young enough to be their daughters, do you think these women are creepy too.


Skyweaver @24: Do you assume that men in their early 30s wouldn't be interested in you? I'm 47, and I would assume most men half my age wouldn't be interested, especially if they were married and my neighbour.

Lava @25: It's a reference to this video:
I also think this man is creepy, because he's objectifying someone who's completely inappropriate. His fantasy is wanking at her? Like EmmaLiz says, eww.


Husband might be a no show in the bedroom, and they sleep seperately. She’s playing a double game here, trying to hook him in, in front of his wife, yet not following thru when they are alone.
Trouble, LW, that’s what this spells. Enjoy your fantasy, the reality could be hell.


Fantasies are selfish, all about me. I think this fantasy if fine, not straight up of course. Further on in the affair.. No LW. Stay Away.


I’ve started reading a biography of Colette, a wild woman. I can’t believe they have put an Englishwoman as her in the film, and Kiera Knightly, ffs. Colette was a Frenchwoman. And a very saucy one.


BiDanFan @23 - thanks! That makes sense. (It's Alkmene, btw.)


@14 EmmaLiz wins the thread!


@8 "I know shit for current actors."

😂 Current actors like "the guy who played Mallory's boyfriend on Family Ties", circa 1982?

Also, it should be "misgrokked". Misgroked would rhyme with stroked, and that's obviously wrong.


Trying to understand the woman’s “flirting” motivation (Assuming said flirting is real and not LW’s wishful thinking)...

TOP TEN REASONS why married me would hit on someone else’s husband who is young enough to be my son...

1) I am a total idiot with no social filter.
2) I am curious to see how far I can go before his spouse kicks my ass up over my head.
3) I’m off my meds.
4) I have often wondered what it would be like to be crazy as a Kardashian.
5) My psychiatrist told me, “Go with it. LISTEN to those voices in your head.”
6) I’m part of a Candid Camera sketch.
7) I just swallowed an entire bottle of Horny Goat Weed.
8) Witch next door has me under a spell.
9) Only way I can get my husband to spank me is if I am naughty.
10) Trying out a plot line for a porn flick.


... come to think of it, all those reasons also apply to LW.


It's curious, perhaps telling, that WOW doesn't mention his wife's reaction to the alleged flirting. In my experience, most women are well attuned to such things, so it's either not happening, or she doesn't care.

@21 @23: "Grok" means to completely understand - intuitively or by empathy - which speaks to the probability, alluded to by @6, that neigbour lady feels comfortable enough to be friendly only when the wife is around.

So no, WOW, do not tell your married lady neigbour, behind the backs of your spouses, that you'd like to wank while she poses. That might get you featured in your very own Gillette ad. Instead, work out a less creepy way to get your jollies - perhaps even in partnership with your wife, assuming she's not completely put off by your grokky ways. Google "age play" while you're at it.


LW, your neighbor is not interested in sex with you. She flirts when you and your wife are with her, either because she's naturally friendly/outgoing/flirtatous/fun, or has a little crush on your wife. She doesn't flirt when you're alone, because every attractive woman ever has learned by the time they reach puberty to stamp down their natural behavior, and be less friendly, less interesting, less attractive around men they're not interested in, to avoid harassment and unwanted attention.

Be a good neighbor (and a non-cheating POS husband), keep your fantasy to yourself!


Donny @34, there is a huge difference between "flirting" and "hitting on." Presumably both spouses would notice a hitting-on. I vote it's probably Dan's Option 2: harmless and certainly NOT intended to inspire requests like WOW intends.

Lava @27, I see you've been to the Harriet School of Speculation. Nothing needs to be wrong in a relationship for one or both parties to enjoy a little (what they see as) harmless flirting, keep them feeling young and attractive. WOW needs to take the compliment, and keep his fantasies to himself.


Iseult @36: Bingo. This answers Fubar @35's question about why the wife isn't bothered. She knows it's not serious - hence why she only does it when Wife is there to "cock block" any escalation on WOW's part.


Fubar @35, it's either not happening or she doesn't care because she TRUSTS her husband to not go banging the motherly neighbour.


"Alkmen @21: "Grok" means to completely understand. It was coined by Robert Heinlein in the 1960s novel Stranger In A Strange Land. (Thank you Google, I'd remembered it was a sci-fi novel but didn't remember which one.) With that root word you should get the meaning of Dan's mis-grok-ed -- misunderstood, took the wrong way."

It also came to a greater sci-fi and nerdy-nerd usage through the Trekkie cantphrase "I Grok Spock".

@27: "She’s playing a double game here, trying to hook him in, in front of his wife, yet not following thru when they are alone."

More likely, this "flirting" is something of his creation.

Couples feel comfortable being around other couples, but that doesn't mean everyone wants a key party.

I don't see anything fake about this letter necessarily. The guy has his fantasy, but "dance around and pose in high heels while I jack off" seems far too banal to match the usual fetish Penthouse Forum writers, and focuses more energy discussing the surrounding characters that would otherwise go into meticulous detail of the fetish... but perhaps he's just boring on top of it all.

Anyway, Dan was kind to this guy and his (assuming sincerity) fantastical idea.


You can still jack off bro


Anyway, I'm reading an Eartha Kitt type, who's ribald in public - where it's "safe", but relatively normal in private. There's always that brand of woman around, at any age, who references the sex she would have been having if only she were younger (and they exist at all ages past mid twenties). This neighbor probably one of them.


BiDanFan @39: It's quite possible that she trusts her husband, but unlikely that she wouldn't comment on the flirting. Still, WOW may have left that out for brevity.

And he's not talking about banging the neighbour, which I find curious. What's going on that he's dreaming about a wanking scenario rather than a fucking one?


Whatever else is true, it's common for flirting with one member of a couple in the presence of both to be done, and is usually understood as intended to compliment both.


@ 36 and @ 44 you have both rationally explained the situation to an irrational, fantasy-driven individual who will ignore your advice, send the marriage into a tailspin, become a pariah in his town, finally crashing and burning while wondering what went wrong.

WOW, as the foreman who supervised me in a summer job used to say: "cocksucking Christ on a crutch!"i.e. get a grip on reality.


Some people are sort of naturally low-level flirtatious all the time. My now-84-year-old mother is one of them. She doesn't really want to have sex with the men; it's just the way she relates. "Flirting" can mean many things, from just some extra attention, smiling, standing a little close, holding eye contact, to much more overt sexual references. I suspect this woman, who is not necessarily an old hag, is doing more of the former kind.

And around both spouses, so no one thinks it's a serious proposition. Which it probably is not.

But if she were seriously interested, I doubt her fantasy would be to wear high heels and pose for the neighbor while he masturbates.
So lw, if that is the extent of your fantasy, just project it in your mind and have a wank.


Donny I think it depends on how blatant the flirting is - which is questionable. There are people who take any friendliness as flirting. If it's actually blatant and she's aware she's doing it, it could also be that she's a bit of a tease or enjoys making him nervous / turned on since it's validating and this feels like a safe way to do it without having any consequences. It could be too that she's honestly turned on by him but not dumb enough to let herself express that desire in any way that could blow up their lives (like by having an affair with your married neighbor). But my guess is like someone said (Dan?) it has more to do with sort of complimenting the younger woman since it's only done in front of her. Or she could just be a really inappropriate and horny lady, but if that's the case, it seems she'd be that way even alone.

The other option is that the flirting is subtle and more friendly or just interpreted that way. I've always been a fan of light flirting in a social context. I think it's good for people and it's fun. If LW and wife have a good relationship, I say they should joke about it and channel that energy back into their own sex life.

Venn, he peeked, he was piqued and then he peaked

BDF just to clarify, I don't think his fantasy is creepy or inappropriate. I think the delusion that he should share this with her irl and she'd be interested in going along with it is creepy and objectifying (if real) and the recklessness to blow his life up over it is stupid (if real). But as a fantasy, it's healthy and harmless.


I don't think Dan was suggesting that the neighbor couldn't be sexual, but rather that the older woman would not assume the younger married neighbor would be interested in her or interpret her flirting as actually hitting on him. This is insightful on Dan's part, IMO. When I was younger, I was always aware that any prolonged eye contact or social/personal conversation with a man would be interpreted as sexual interest. Now I do not worry that showing interest in men in their 20s will be interpreted as opening myself up to be hit on and I can be friendlier now in a simpler way. This has nothing to do with my own sexuality but rather how it is interpreted by men. When I was young, all sorts of very innocent behaviors were interpreted by men as sexual and now that Im older they are not. I assume that as I get older and the age gap increases, this will become more and more the case.

Sporty, I'm probably that woman to a certain extent since we closed our marriage but I'm careful not to be that way IRL. I don't think this is just a tendency of older women (and I'm not even 50) but of people past youth for sure, also men definitely. I've thought before that if I were not aware of the stereotype and respectful of others' perceptions, I'd naturally lean towards the sort of behavior we call dirty old man (inappropriate flirting and unwanted sexual reference). Thank goodness for the internet! If this neighbor really is inappropriately flirting, maybe she needs to find someone online to sext with. But that's not the LW's issue.

Fubar, Maybe he just has that kink of wanting people to watch them wank- unfortunately so many of them do it SURPRISE. But in this case, I just think he's into the fact that she is attracted to him as opposed to actually being into her. So in his fantasy, she's still attracted to him- she wants to watch him have pleasure- he doesn't have any real interest in her or her pleasure. She's basically a centerfold otherwise.


15 - I totally remember watching this on TV! Eric Bogosian was the boyfriend, right?

And that last scene - "Why don't you read my mind?" Zinnnggg.
Re this letter - I agree with others, that LW can wank 'till he drops, but needs to keep this to himself. If she was into him, she'd'a let him know. And if he blurts it out to her, good luck in keeping that a secret.


@24 @26 While the percentage of men who are attracted to much older women or much older men is fairly small, the numbers are quite large in big cities, and sometimes surprisingly large in smaller towns.

Most of them are quiet and secretive about their attraction, though, because of asssholes who make fun of their attraction to older people. Any older woman or older man who puts herself or himself in venues where younger men can find them, though, discovers herself or himself to be unexpectedly (and enthusiastically) in demand if they're also fun to be around, respectful of their younger admirers and fun in bed.

There will, of course, be occasional assholes who make wrong assumptions and stupid comments about older people and sex, but those guys are just generally assholes, so who cares?


I just watched her interview last night (by Maddow). I can't think of anyone with more strength. It seems like her heart's in the right place. I can't say anyone would have a better chance against President Shithole. I'm a lefty, she's not my favorite candidate, and I was about to say I'd be /totally/ cool if she gets the Dem nomination, until...

I took a quick look at reports she demeans and rages at staff: while probably par for people playing golf on her course, I'd very much prefer better. It's bugging me a /lot/ more than that (my beloved) Warren sowed some seeds on her family belief that turned out to test as a Native American ancestor 6 generations back.


EmmaLiz @47 -- agree that LW should at least consider telling his wife about his fantasy and seeing where that leads. If he's sure she will take it badly, then maybe get a therapist and talk out his feelings about not being authentic with his wife about his fantasies.


Curious, honestly not an attack here but a real question. I've seen you say you are a lefty several times followed by a statement that is clearly liberal and not leftist, and especially in the last six months I've seen a similar thing on Twitter, even people saying they are socialist or leftists who support candidates like Cory Booker of all people.

So honestly two questions: 1) how do you define leftist? To me, it seems there are two possibilities- that you are just generally on the left side of the current political split in your time/place which seems accurate and then more specific meaning which is a spectrum of anticapitalism (ranging from anarchism communism socialism to social democracy).

I'm assuming you don't mean you are a lefty just because you are left of Republicans so I'm going with the second- that you are describing yourself as a lefty as compared with centrist and liberals?

In either case, Klobuchar is a moderate to centrist liberal on all her policies (she's pro US imperialism, for a mixed market option for health care, for moderate immigration reforms within the existing system, for a market based solutions for climate change, for very moderate tax reform, etc). She's rejecting PAC money for her 2020 run, but otherwise I don't see anything particularly lefty about her.

Again, not arguing if you should support her or not- those are all positions much better than any Republican option and if she ends up running against Trump I will likewise vote for her. Just seems weird that you have twice now (that I'm aware of) said you are a leftist and then said how much you liked a liberal. And since i'm seeing this same trend on Twitter, I'm wondering what's up.


What Erica, now couples have to share their fantasies with each other to be authentic. That would make the situation a zillion times worse, telling his wife.
It’s a fantasy, that’s all. It probably shocks him because she is an older woman, old enough to be his mother. If he is seriously in danger of acting it out then yes, talk with his wife so they can put strategies into place to avert his impulses, like he just doesn’t talk to this neighbour at all or says a polite hello and turns away. Otherwise, you think couples should own to every fantasy that pops into their head? All the hot girls at gym a husband suddenly envisages taking from behind. I don’t think so. Some of these fantasies are spontaneous reactions and there is no need to share with anyone else. Unless one wants too.


Sorry I forgot the second question. 2) What are your political ideologies regarding capitalism and public/private wealth?

Again it's sort of my own little research project trying to understand how people are using words now.


(BTW I get that you aren't saying you like Klobuchar, but what swayed you against her had nothing to do with her politics but rather her personal behavior hence my question).


If he values his marriage and having a home to live in where there’s no conflict with his neighbours, he’d keep it as a fantasy and shut his mouth.


tl;dr: No.


He could always get another fantasy going about another woman, one who lives a way away, move this one along.


@53 EmmaLiz
"attack here but a real question"

Thanks, particularly since we're already danced a bit about the labels themselves.

First, it makes me sad that while the Republican Party is ruled by it's wing, the Democratic Party's left wing has no voice and can be taken for granted. (Literally: what else are we gonna do: throw our votes away [in the absence of ranked choice voting]? Certainly not vote for any Republican.) So I dream of left wing Dems like Bernie (and like Warren if I understand what she's about) actually being capable of gathering great followings.

"you are describing yourself as a lefty as compared with centrist and liberals"

Yes, I'm far left I'd say.

But I'm also a pragmatist in general (and as regards electoral strategy).

(Tangent: this means that here in the most radical part of the SF Bay Area, when I find myself in an activist strategy meeting, it's weird to often find others advocating [utterly impractically] wilder approaches than even I see as advisable. But then hell I guess Trump could probably find a KKK meeting in which he wasn't the most virulent racist.)

I want to beat this orange piece of shit, and

If Bernie couldn't (and if Warren can't) win the Dem nomination then they certainly aren't gonna get their visions realized anyway. It will take a hell of a politician to inspire the electorate to put legislators in place to actually affect anything better than centrist (to me aka liberal) aims.

In which case I'd like to see someone with integrity. (Which, going off on another tangent, I didn't think Hillary had much of when she had already lost the nomination to Obama and was lying publicly that she was ahead. I hope little more sacred than democracy, and so I'll never forgive Hillary for attempting to undermine it thusly. Honestly I could never relate to how people felt about her until that.)

Does Klobuchar have integrity? Well I just 'met' her, but demeaning and raging against subordinates is not integrity or good-hearted in my book. I'd love better. But almost by definition I never expect to see a candidate I love in the White House.

So really, I guess when I say that if the Party wants Klobuchar I'm cool with that, it just means I have little hope for better. I really only brought her up because a few folks have put her name out I checked her out a bit.

@55 EmmaLiz
(The right question, IMO: economics is the fundamental issue, because money is power and with economic equality all other progressive aims can be accomplished.)
I really hate capitalism. I see utterly no need for individuals to capitalize the 'means of production'.

How then? That gets very complicated. It seems like communism doesn't provide people with helpful incentive.

I worked for years in the co-op movement. I think that we could take a easy first-step by incentivizing what I call market socialism; in the interest of the people instead of the capitalists, gov't could incentivize/capitalize worker-owned co-ops, and they'd spontaneously join the existing fleet upon the ocean of the market.

We'd probably have to quickly go further, though. In the mid-1800's unions spawned worker-owned businesses, but that that experiment failed...for the same reason worker-owned co-ops today suffer from competition from predatory companies eager to pay their employees the minimum number of pennies and no benefits. I have old comrades, the best people I know, who have struggled in the trenches against that dilemma for years.

I'm thinking the key is levelling the playing field with legislation that provides the living wage worker-owners will understandably demand.

"public/private wealth"

I believe in redistribution. It's obscene that people have such ridiculous amounts of money. And totally unnecessary as incentive for them to do what they'd do anyway without getting /such/ obscenely unlimited wealth.

Not sure what you meant by 'public wealth', but I do think that any natural monopoly (power, water, etc.) should be a public utility, and that society should provide what people need. (Particularly since as automation continues there won't be jobs for most people, so it would be insane /not/ to provide a guaranteed income.) I got quite excited when Enron was extorting California with the fake power crisis by gaming plant shutdowns and Gov. Davis threatened (at the legislature's urging) to seize the plants.


First, sorry about @60 everyone, EmmaLiz asked and I couldn't resist.

Where I wrote
"all other progressive aims can be accomplished"
I meant
"all other POPULIST aims can be accomplished" (but I do consider that populism mostly equates to progressive).

Nb: I avoiding complicating the economic picture by considering offshoring/non-domestic competition. In reality I think that needs solving too, with the opposite of Trumpism, with internationalizing the interest of all the workers of the world in not all being pitted against each other in a race to the bottom. I'd love to see a POTUS come along who could/would bring the people of the world together to do /that/! I wish that had happened to lift up developing economies without so dragging down of developed ones.


sarah_anonymous @ 6 and Lava @ 9 said it before, possibly others as well.
It may be her way of being polite, she thinks this is funny, this is what she knows. Sadly or not this seems to be it.
As for the fantasized scenario, masturbating while she is posing/modeling, I think this is more unique and possibly harder to sell than a classic full blown experience.
Still possible, but not likely in the case at hand which, as many more have already asserted, should remain at the hand level.


Curious, that's why I wasn't asking about strategy or what you think is possible of happening or what you expect for the current outcome but rather what you mean by identifying yourself as a leftist. The long term harms/benefits of compromise or lesser evil voting, but that's a different topic. I was asking because I've seen a lot of people lately call themselves leftists and then say things that just seem pretty pro capitalist and liberal, and I was wondering where the confusion is and how the words are changing. While I see the difference between any Rep and any Dem, I do not see the difference between various liberal Dems certainly not enough to consider any of them as a preference in the primary, hence my confusion about your stated ideologies and your willingness to consider centrist/libs now (at this moment when there are other options). That's all but thank for clearing up your larger stance.

I think we sometimes speak past each other just because we seem to be using words differently which IMO is happening in this current moment quite a bit because for years there really wasn't a modern and relevant conversation on the wider left on a national level so we are having to learn how to talk to one another again. In that vein...

Populism can exist on the right or on the left. The confusion generally seems to be on what "liberalism" means- socially it's in terms of individual rights, economically it's in terms of private property. Americans tend to think that the conservatism is the opposite of liberalism (hence their confusion over the term "neoliberalism") but in truth that's just a reflection of our current discourse in which everyone on both sides are economically liberal but we argue about individual rights. The actual spectrum economically is one from liberalism to collectivism. So on the left, you find socialism, communism and anarchism. On the right, you find liberalism- free market economics based around private, not collective property. Populism can exist in either- it's simply a matter of responding to people's immediate concerns rather than to a special interest or elite.


BTW I'm sure you know all that Curious but I'm refreshing because it seems to clarify our last miscommunication.


Amy Klobuchar is a legitimate threat to Trump, so the smear campaign has already started. Ooooh she’s so MEAN to her staff! Like being a “nice” woman is a qualification to be president or like we would hear anything like this said about a man. Fuck. Trump is the biggest asshole on the planet to his staff... don’t hear anything about that (probably because compared to legitimately breaking 1009 laws it’s low on the priority list). If “she’s so mean” is the worst you can say about her, too bad. Maybe you should be saying, “She holds her staff to a strict standard”. P.S. I bet she never put on blackface in college.


Donny, Trump is held to an entirely different standard than anyone else. He can literally say/do whatever he wants and it's fine. I don't care about any of these people's manners or personalities. I do care about their policies, and hers aren't where it's at IMO. I do think (of the serious contenders right now) she's the one least likely to have something that Trump can bully her about. But I don't know how much we need to be worried about what Trump or any Republicans really think about her and rather how much the candidate can mobilize masses of disaffected voters. And in that case, I don't think she has any advantages over Harris or Warren.

On a policy level, I like Warren more, but I don't think any of them have the sort of populist support that an opposition to Trump is going to need to win. But it's still a long time off from now and who knows what will happen or who will get involved and I'll vote for whoever just like I always do ho hum.

I keep expecting something totally nuts to happen, like Kanye to announce he's running or Hulk Hogan or someone who takes themselves way too seriously like Leo DiCaprio.


@44 EmmaLiz
You're right there's rightwing populists too. I guess I that deep down, I feel like at least many of those same people will be attracted to leftwing populism if the messenger is good (I know many who did just that, swing to Bernie from Trump), so I call it progressive because I consider progressiveness enlightened and righwingers misguided.

@65 DonnyKlicious
I admit I only spent a tenth of the time qoogling those accusations (but I did notice they went back years and seem substantive) that I did indulging myself in answering EmmaLiz' request that I talk about my own ideas (embarrassingly self-indulgently).

Good points Donny. It does very strongly reek of sexism.

I heard from a filmmaker I know that Michael Moore is shitty to work with, but who's ever heard about that?

I would have taken exactly your position if I'd heard a different defense from her than "I am tough I push people". Maybe you should run for POTUS, you defended her better than she defended herself.

Hey don't worry, probably few people care what kind of a boss she is.
But I do; I spent many years with unions fighting evil bosses in a rat's ass employer; I spent a few years modelling what it's like to be a perfect boss. Given the choice I'd rather elect a good person to be president. And I'd rather someone closer to my views.

If she's our best candidate to confront Trump, she'll mount a better defense than I've seen so far from her. I trust she can, like I said, I can't think of anyone that looks stronger.


Sure is more interesting political discussion here than in Slog AM! Showy air kisses all around.


I just wanted the 69. :)


Fubar @43: "unlikely that she wouldn't comment on the flirting"
I disagree. What would she say? This woman is 60, and I think it's safe to say that the flirting is playful in nature, and that Mrs WOW has no reason to suspect that her husband secretly has a thing for GILFs. If she has noticed the flirting, she probably thinks it's nothing more than cute. What would commenting on it do, other than make -her- appear either unfriendly or irrationally (to all logical minds) jealous? Trust me on this, young women don't consider older women a threat. And I am talking about the wife's mindset throughout. If a wife suspects -anything-, it's that her husband wants to bang someone else, not that he wants to jack off at them.

EmmaLiz @47: I agree there's nothing creepy about keeping a fantasy like this to oneself.

EricaP @52: Wait, what? I don't think that's what EmmaLiz meant at all, at least I hope not. She said "joke about it," which might be a thing if Wife has noticed and Wife brings it up. "Mrs Stacy next door sure seems to have taken a shine to you," wink wink. Then he laughs it off and says "I hope you'll be as frisky at that age!", and playfully grabs her. Sex ensues, and Wife has no idea WOW actually is thinking about Mrs Stacy next door. This is VERY different to WOW telling his wife he has a hard-on for the neighbour, which no one under any circumstances whatsoever should ever do. (Okay, if they are swingers then it might be okay. But not for WOW. Definitely not for WOW!)

If you meant WOW should ask his wife to put on a dress and heels and model for him, sure.


Congrats Fan.. I know you’ll use your good fortune well.
I think Beto is going to come riding in on his white horse, and charm the pants off a lot of Americans. I have some fb friends in deep USA, and they swoon over Beto. Another JFK they say.


LavaGirl @ BiDanFan -- I'm not saying share all passing fantasies, but, yes, I think in a strong, sexually compatible marriage it's appropriate to share ongoing fantasies, even about specific people.

Long before we opened our marriage we talked about who else we would do, if the opportunity arose. It's like sharing taste in porn -- a way to get to know each other better sexually.


It's one of the nice things about marriage to have these private knowing jokes with one another- every time they talk to the neighbor they can (wink) joke about how hot she finds the husband. "Oh there's NEIGHBOR again. I bet she's checking out your ass." That sort of thing. When other people check out my husband, I find it flattering. He finds it flattering too. I usually comment on how hot he is and how hot others find him. This compounds the original flattering for both of us and a fun sexy time is had by all. There is no reason he should tell his wife he's actually fantasizing about the neighbor unless wife is into that too.

So that's the surface level reason I think he should share this with her. But to go deeper...

If the neighbor really is flirting with him, the wife has probably noticed or will notice next time after it's pointed out to her. LW could mention it to the wife, in a playful casual nonsexual way like "Hey have you noticed NEIGHBOR is sort of flirty with me" grin.

If the neighbor is actually being inappropriate (and not just harmless flirting) the wife is probably in the best position to deal with it so that all these four people can continue living near each other within their own marriages without stirring up drama.

Wife's response will give him some idea if this is all in his head. If her answer is "No! She's just friendly!" or "You always think people are flirting with you!" or something along those lines, then maybe LW can do a little self-reflection. Because if this letter is real, he's seriously considering going behind his wife's back and telling a married woman who lives near him and his family that he wants her to pose in front of him in heels while he jacks off. He's contemplating this recklessness with no serious consideration of the drama and real life consequences - marriages! homes! - he might be stirring up, AND the scenario he has in mind is entirely about him- neighbor is just masturbation fodder, PLUS there's a real likelihood that telling the neighbor he wants her to watch him masturbate would come across as sexual harassment. So clearly, dude could use some help in broadening his perspective in how other people see him, what other people think, how others behave / interpret things, etc, and maybe finding out that (from a casual conversation with his wife) that he's interpreting normal friendly behavior as flirtation could help with that.

Likewise, he's built this thing up in his mind to the point that he's thinking about acting on it, so telling his wife about the flirting might also diffuse the fantasy a bit and bring the scenario back down to the real world because when we are super horny, we can sometimes lose sight of our real lives. I mean, dude is really thinking about harming his marriage and home just to jack off in front of someone?

Also... I don't know why but there are some men who really really want people (other than their sexual partners) to watch them jack off, and it's a common enough thing that I've unfortunately spent a bit of time wondering about it. Taken as a kink, it's fine. But there are likewise some men who interpret any thing that turns them on as sexual intent on your part- even if you weren't even aware of (you smiled, you moved in a way that made your breasts do something they think looks sexual, etc). It's disturbing when it happens because there's always the sense that you are being a tease- it's this weird thing in which the man cannot comprehend that his perception is not reality, that you could be experiencing something differently, and I really do think this has something to do with likewise assuming everyone really wants to see their dicks. So the combo of both things in this letter sort of raised a red flag to me. Therefore, if this experience has roused in the LW this fantasy and it really is about wanting people to watch him jack off, it would be good for the LW to bring this up with his wife (leave the neighbor out of the conversation!) and see if the wife will go along with it. It's a pretty easy thing to ask. But if he needs it to be someone else or an older woman, and the urge really won't go away, he might need to have a bigger conversation about this and seek it in a way that is safer and less likely to blow up several people's lives and get him in trouble for harassment.


EricaP @72: Nice if both people are into that sort of thing. But even so, there's a big difference between telling your partner you'd happily boink Jason Momoa if the chance arose -- because it won't -- and that you have a raging boner for a neighbour. "Long before we opened our marriage" indicates that both of you were at least that way inclined; not everyone is. I maintain that WOW telling his wife would be a stupid move.

EmmaLiz @73: Hmm, perhaps you have changed my mind with your "Mrs WOW deserves to know what a creepy dude her husband is" argument, possibly so she can warn Neighbour Woman to tone it down.


I'm a (mostly) gay guy rapidly approaching 60. I'm "extra friendly" / flirty with all kinds of people. It's free, it's fun, and harmless. Has it ever gone anywhere? Not really. But if it did, I'd be down. ;)

Please wait...

and remember to be decent to everyone
all of the time.

Comments are closed.

Commenting on this item is available only to members of the site. You can sign in here or create an account here.

Add a comment

By posting this comment, you are agreeing to our Terms of Use.