Savage Love

Consider the (Extra) Lobster



The problem with extra lobster being something that is really good is that the phrase seems less amazing than "amazing." And yet, I get why people argue against extra lobster referencing something different: getting head and a finger in the ass is two different things. In the end, I think the phrase is funny and would be useful but I'm not instantly sold in the same ways I was with pegging and santorum.

BTW, I'd like to propose something more useful: Trump would be the name for that situation when cum drys on your cock and your piss stream shoots all over the place: "Sorry it took me awhile to come back, that trump led to a mess in the bathroom." Something like that.


Speaking of words, I’m kind of tired of “feminine” (as representatively used by one of the LWs) meaning “wearing silk, satin, and stockings” instead of literally anything else that women do.


This is how the childless can tell when it's school vacation week. Dan proposes a fun neologism-forming contest, publishes some of the best entries as his weekly column by adding a few of his own comments here and there, then summarizes by saying that "extra lobster" should just mean awesome sex in general, and we can each apply our own defiinition of what that level of awesome could mean. What a fun...contest?

My favorite reader contribution for "extra lobster" was the gorgeous trans woman. And though I tend to agree with Fresh @2 about the misapplication of the adjective "feminine" to describe inanimate articles of clothing rather than the person wearing them (who could be of any gender), the comment probably would have lost its punch without that added level of descriptive visualization.


@ 2 the way I read it that comment was made written by a cis woman, appreciating of and enjoying quality time with a trans woman/”crossdresser as an unbrella term” ™

Here it is for our convenience: When you see a gorgeous ultra-feminine creature far more gorgeously feminine than my straight CIS ass will ever be. But under all the silks and stockings and satin panties... there's a wonderful and welcome surprise! That girl comes WITH EXTRA LOBSTER!


Isn't "Extra lobster" just another way of "gilding the lily"?


I should have specified "non-op trans woman," as well as making a clear choice between "made" and "written" earlier in my comment.


I would think that the antithesis of neologism would be paleologism. Paleogism sounds like day-old come.


I can't stop laughing, Dan! My favorite retort, "Fuck off"!!


Extra lobster: residual TP in the ass crack


@7 agreed.

And for any pedant who would claim it is redundant to describe a neologism as "new," since neologisms are by definition new: you're wrong!

A neologism can be new, in the strictest sense of the word, but it can also be recent, or the latest (as in neolithic), revived (as in neoclassical), or just used in a different or modified way.


And another thing! "Extra Lobster" doesn't qualify as a neologism until it gains traction. Until then, it's a protologism.


I'm sorry---I just can't seem to shake off The Lobster (2015). I'll try again next week.


I have a feeling that "extra lobster" isn't going to be the success that "pegging" or "santorum" was. (And of those two, only pegging has become a "real" word -- santorum is basically a joke.)


But I don’t like lobster. Can I substitute it with Extra Calamari?


You know more about my genitals than I do, Dan. Vaginal Vestibule, just hanging around knock knock knocking on heaven’s door.


So honey, do you want me to lick you out. Sure baby, with extra lobster.
You might think you have it sorted Dan, I’m not convinced it’s going to go off. You may need to think of a new one.


Dan, unsurprisingly, you somewhat misstepped with the definition of vestibule both as it relates to female genitals and as it relates to the building part this area is named after. In a building, one can enter the lobby without boarding the elevator to rise to a higher floor. Perhaps you're only in the lobby so that someone who lives there can come and meet you. Similarly, one can stimulate the vaginal vestibule without entering the vagina. So it's a better metaphor than Dan thinks.

Fresh @2, you totally missed the point of the word "feminine" in this context to describe someone dressed in the trappings of women's attire who is in fact transgender. In my experience, most trans women I've met wear far more "feminine" clothing than the average cis woman, in order to tilt the balance away from that Y chromosome they were unfortunately born with.

Turbo @5 and RE @13: Agreed. Sorry Dan, "extra lobster" was better left as an in-joke between you and Terry.

Similar to "special chicken," a roommate of mine once came back from visiting a rural relative with a bunch of homegrown weed in a bread bag because that was the only available bag. From then on, "bread" was the code for weed in our house. We never expected it to catch on with others -- and that was the beauty of it.


We are on watch for a cyclone which looks like it’s heading our way. It’s not punching much at the moment, but cyclones are so unpredictable.
Got candles. Spent the day sorting my plastic boxes of books under my studio into sell and keep lots. Left the to sell ones there and moved to keep lot into the house. Too many books! Found some gems again too. I’m set if we get flooded in.


Surfrat @1: Trump is already British slang for fart. It just needs to be popularised in America. Along with shag, which I understand was forgotten after Austin Powers films stopped being released.

Necktie @7: LOL!


Stay safe, Lava!


BDF @17, I didn’t miss the point. The point is, who decided which clothes were feminine?
I’ll take surgeon’s scrubs as feminine attire, thanks.


Bernie joining the race makes me sad. I've loved Bernie for decades, and his positions may better align with mine than his opponents...but he's lost enough for me. To put his ideas into effect he'd have capture broad public support, and in 2016 he demonstrated he doesn't have what it takes to do that (even compared to Hillary's poor appeal as a candidate), he's just not an appealing enough personality. And he's too damn old. And all things being equal I'd rather have a woman be POTUS, so I've transferred from Bernie's bus to Elizabeth Warren's.

@17 BiDanFan
"Sorry Dan, "extra lobster" was better left as an in-joke between you and Terry."

Yes, I'm afraid ya had to be there at that food court in Iceland. (And you had to like lobster, which is relatively tasteless, give me crabmeat any day.) I'd bet plenty that this one doesn't catch on.


Curious2 @22, as someone who does love lobster, I'm glad of Dan's anecdote because I now know that if and when I do make that dream trip to Iceland, I'll be ordering extra lobster every chance I get!


"As a vegan, Dan, I strongly object to "with extra lobster." It reinforces the speciest notion that is it permissible to consume lobsters, sentient life forms that feel pain, and associating a sex act with the violence of meat consumption further desensitizes us to acts of sexual violence."
"Fuck off."

You got trolled, yo


Most of the suggestions are for getting something different along with something else good. Wouldn't that be surf&turf?

Extra lobster suggests getting plenty of something wonderful that is generally rare - and then getting more of the same thing, past the point of enjoyment. Like a thorough, exhausting pounding from a big dick; but a few minutes after falling asleep, satisfied and but aching to be awoken for another session of the same thing.

I mean, I love lobster and I generally can't get it, but there is a limit of how much I want at a single sitting.


Necktie @ 7 - "Paleogism sounds like day-old come"

Actually, it sounds like come that you would need carbon-dating to determine when it was shot, so... more than a day old.


Jefmcb @ 25
Trolled or not, I also had a good spontaneous laugh once I read the response and feel blessed for not having any food or liquid in mouth at the time.

BDF @ 17
“…dressed in the trappings of women's attire…”
What means “trapping” in this context? I assume you wouldn’t imply something like “confined” and wonder if I'm missing a boiled cabbage of some sort.

As for me there’s a lot of joy and creativity involved in going out en femme (as well as constant safety assessments and a forgiving mindset to cope with an occasional stare and some uncontrolled smiles.)
I take LW’s letter as a compliment and appreciation of the determination and effort one goes through in order to achieve a desired look. That they also find it sexy doesn’t come across as objectification, but rather a huge extra lobster that even this strict vegetarian would find hard to pass.


Story time: Once at a party when I was in college, some friends and I ordered a pizza. There were vegetarians present, so the order was "pineapple, with extra cheese". The pizza was duly delivered, and when we opened the box, we discovered that the person on the phone had written down "pineapple, with extra clams".

I hereby submit "with extra clams" as a parallel neologism, meaning something that generally does meet your expectations, but then adds a little something extra to make it horrible.


Oh yes, I agree, it shouldn’t be as specific as “pegging” or “Santorum.” Keep it general for anything that’s extra special or “over the top (in a good way)”.


@18 LavaGirl: Stay safe! Big hugs, positrons, and VW beeps to you and your family.
@19 BiDanFan: LOL "@1: Trump is already British slang for fart." SO spot on! I nominate you and the British for the WIN on Trump-related comments for nailing the world's most revolting orange blob of filthy and putrid hot air. No wonder the British have their Baby Trump blimps on public display whenever that pigfucker-in-chief, a total gasbag of waste, contaminates UK soil.


@ 27 CMDwannabe -- Trappings are articles of equipment or dress, especially of an ornamental nature. Also, conventional signs of....pretty much anything!

t'Rump has all the trappings of an authoritarian dictator. This presidency has all the trappings of a sinking ship. My husband has all the trappings of a man enjoying retirement. Dan has all the trappings of a successful advice columnist (including Ann Landers' desk!)

It's not "trap" like confinement. It's actually from an old word for an ornamental covering for a horse!

And I do love lobster and will have to consider what "extra lobster" might comprise :-) Gotta make that dream trip to Iceland soon!

About that "Special Chicken" -- I always thought weed was "Extra Biscuits." From a guy who was selling weed from the KFC drive up window where he worked Unfortunately for him, a customer who wanted actual extra biscuits, not weed, ratted him out.


@27 CMDwannabe: I know this is regarding a week or two past, but in lieu of a well deserved previously won Lucky @69 Award on SL, when is your lingerie fashion show? By the way, I think BiDanDan's term "trappings" is a British slang term for clothes, or "togs" (correct me, though if I'm wrong, Bi).


Enfant @28: Where do they top pizza with clams? I want some of that!


CMD @27: By "trappings" I meant only "accessories," or as the internet defines it, "the outward signs, features, or objects associated with a particular situation, role, or job." Good catch on the unintentional pun, though. Many "feminine" garments are indeed confining -- corsets, high heels, girdles and (sometimes) bras, as you should well know. We could have a discussion about how The Patriarchy expects women to endure discomfort to meet the male gaze, and if there's nothing but lobsters to talk about this week, maybe we will... :) There's a difference between enduring uncomfortable clothes because one wants to versus because one is expected to. Okay, so I've just watched the latest series of Poldark and been reminded of how lucky I am to live in an era where people like me aren't expected to wear corsets and long skirts at all times.

Wild Sow @31: So it's decided, Iceland will be the place where we hold that mythical Savage Love fan convention, so we can all get as much extra lobster as we like.

Ha! Yes, that's the problem with having innocuous and less known slang terms. My roommate forgot our code and one time I asked if there was any bread, asked quizzically why, did I want some toast? Haha.


Sexual freedom is spiritual bondage.


Several years ago, I remember Dan asking for definition submissions for a whole bunch of potential neologisms. If memory serves, my favorite was 'saddlebacking' which some fucking inspired genius defined as 'Having anal sex to maintain one's virginity.' Then provided the sentence, 'After my boyfriend and I finish saddlebacking, we're going to head on down to the purity ball.' Whoever you were, thank you.


Dan's mission didn't fail. The reader challenged him to create A neologism, and he did - harnies. That one can catch on.


Lobsters, and some people, are often referred to as “bottom feeders”. I don’t think I need to say anything more...


The Wild Sow, BDF- Thanks for enlightening me.
Aunt Zelda- I do customized burlesque-style performances online, subscribers only.


Griz @32: I'll correct you; trappings is not British slang but a commonly used word in both American and British English. Didn't realise until this week that it wasn't as commonly known as I thought!


True Dadddy, many many Patriarchal men encourage women competing with each other. Makes them feel special one guesses, not the sad little nobodies they really are.
These men are the ones to avoid.


Perhaps "trappings" is used less frequently now; I don't think I see it written as much as I did a few decades ago.

Now that I've taken a closer look at CMDwannabe@27 I see I was wrong, but I was thinking that CMDwannabe was familiar with the word but objected to the sense of superficiality the word often seeks to impart, since attire is I imagine not superficial to someone into CD and fashion.

I also wondered if alternately it might have been imagined by CMDwannabe as a variant of the trans-bigoted use of the word "trap".

But as I said, I now see CMDwannabe understandably simply didn't know the word, so my Comment here is merely ramblings.


Thanks Fan and Grizelda. Action about to start from today with nobody knowing what is going to happen.
Massive surf already, so the surfers are happy. Kirra going off. That’s a famous point down on the Gold Coast.


With all the trappings.. that’s a phrase used for lots of things. Guess it does point to being trapped in a way, caught by how it should be.


Curious2 @ 32
The word never bothered me one way or the other. I’m an ESLian who never heard the word before, at least not in the attire context, and was wondering if there is more to it.
Musing on “trap” was an attempted linguistic fun, though BDF is right about the constrictive nature of some female attire.


+1 for the cock tender definition. That truly is extra lobster.


Extra lobster: when someone's tickling your uvula.


@39 CMDwannabe: Do you have a burlesque website, or is it strictly private? I am respectfully honoring your request for a lingerie show in lieu of the Lucky @69 Award. Feel free to have one as you wish.
@40 BiiDanFan: I stand corrected on trappings. Thanks.
@42 LavaGirl: Agreed and seconded.
@44 LavaGirl re the cyclone: Thank you for the update. The surfers are happy, but what about sharks? I remember you saying you have a son who surfs. Stay safe. Big hugs, positrons, and VW beeps.
XO, Griz
@48 Dadddy: Hey---leave yoga pants off your competition equation list! I live in mine, primarily for comfort, not for representing the latest fashion trend or getting into some horny guy's bed.


And it’s a dud, Grizelda. Overnight we were taken off cyclone watch and nothing save a little wind here. My surfer son is in England at the moment. Safe from surfer heaven temptation.
Dadddy, so what’s your point, that’s exactly what Fan was referring too. Women dressing etc for the male gaze. If they also engage in competition with each other, that’s a separate issue. You have confused the two. Not all men are caught by superficiality, imagine attracting men and never having shaved anywhere since the mid seventies, or worn high heels. Thongs in Australia go on your feet.
Women dress for themselves too, funny that.


Yeah... no.

Santorum is great because it's a gesture of political defiance. Pegging makes sense, because it's an act that needed its own term.

But this? No. Come on. You got stoned, a phrase made you giggle, and now you're desperate to use it somewhere. I had that one, during a mushroom trip. The phrase became the title of a song my band was working on. With Extra Lobster would make a fine album title. But that's about it.


Dadddy @48, if you think I shave my pubes because I'm competing with anyone, you're nuts. And women are competing with each other to score the most male-gaze points, so I'm afraid it does all come back to you lot and your expectations, sorry about that.


Extra lobster when u nut and she keep suckin


Peggy from mad men was once referred to as a lobster.


"All the meat is in the tail"


Aunt Zelda @ 50
Clarification sent.


I realize I'm being too literal, but hearing "with extra lobster", mind immediately goes to the sex scene in Tampopo with the crustaceans in the glass bowl writhing on the nude woman's stomach.


@51 LavaGirl: I'm glad you're all okay. Thank heavens for severe weather advisories turning out to be duds. Those of us in Bellingham, Seattle, the greater Puget Sound region, and the Pacific Northwest are just getting over what many here have called "Snowmageddon"---the snowiest February since 1962. We're in for another winter storm this weekend, but this one is only supposed to be freezing rain--nothing sticking at sea level, not as bad as the last one.
@57 CMDwannabe: I received your email. Many thanks! I love it.


You a woman now Dadddy? You seem to know all about why we dress as we do, which parts of our bodies we shave who our friends are and why we choose them. You dear, are how old, and yet know so little.
My friends are my friends because we think in similar ways about life, nothing to do with some attractive equation. It’s the emotional and intellectual which is satisfied, like with any good connection between people.
You present such a one demensional perspective, which may suit the women you hang with, being so one demensional yourself. Just not sure why you bother with these threads when obviously the women who comment here are, to your notions, rogue animals, living outside how your world operates.
I get you want to be a more rounded man, just not sure it’s worth our effort. Some men are just too entrenched.


This reminds me of two things - first, Anne Elliot's discussion with Captain Harville in which she disallows testimony from books about the inconstancy of women on the grounds of men's having held the pen. The second is the Miss Boston Barmaid episode of Cheers.


There is no inconstancy Mr Venn, women are not defineable by men. They try, as we see Dadddy doing. Trying to pit us against each other. Telling us how to dress and how men, like him, love to leer from the side lines. Well fuck him and his kind. They are perpetuating the Patriachy they say doesn’t exist.
Leave women be. It’s their beauty, their clothes and their bodies.


We are taking the pen now Mr Venn, and writing the stories of our shared history.
And the joke of this little story you tell yourself Dadddy, is that women compete for the Main prize, the man. It’s true, some women are still wound up in that fairytale, lots and lots aren’t. Any more.


I think Dan met the challenge to add to the language years ago with "hiking the Appalachian Trail." I've been using that as a yadda yadda for marital misadventures for years.


Drunk, no. I hardly drink alcohol.
That the best you got, Dadddy?
Such resistance to hearing the truth. Like I sad, some men are not worth the effort and you seem to be one of them.


Though you are a classic case Dadddy, almost a museum piece. In that way you stir my interest. I think, what is gonna come out of this tool now?


I understand enjoying how women present themselves, though where I live the whole tight skirt and high heels is not how most dress, except at night. I enjoy looking at men’s bodies, though most of them might as well be nuns how shy they are to show it off. Out of shape perhaps. Young men, beautiful arms, always a joy to look at. Young women, all that flowering is also a joy to look at.
And before you jump in MrVenn, women who have just become fertile, do flower. Boys, not so much.
An enjoyment of others health and beauty doesn’t have to include an attitude of appropriation. Like I also said, it’s their beauty. It’s all in the attitude.


@65 LavaGirl for the WIN!!
@68 Dadddy: It appears that you are. Sleep it off. Hangovers are a bitch.
@69: LavaGirl: Congratulations, Lava, on scoring this week's highly coveted Lucky @69 Award!! May an abundance of riches come your way and soon.

As for The Lobster--RUN, Colin Farrell and John C. Reilly, while you still can!


Dadddy @60: Sorry, there are no hidden motives here. In fact, I'd prefer if I had no advantage in that department (ie, that no one had pubes). I shave because I enjoy receiving oral sex and I want to make it as pleasant as possible for the people I hope to give it to me. I have no interest in lovers giving me oral sex but not their other partners -- after all, practice makes perfect!

Lava @62: Exactly. Some men are just write-offs, all we can do is appreciate the ones we have even more.
Congrats on the lucky number!

Dadddy @73: You're here to have civilised debates? LOL. Please try being less confrontational then, as you're actively thwarting that goal by baiting the women on the board. You come across as a pompous, swaggering embodiment of flaunted male privilege. You push our buttons and unsurprisingly, we react.
If you don't think women have cause to have an underlying layer of anger, please read this article:


Ms Lava/Ms Grizelda - I was agreeing with the both of you. Re-read Chapter 23 of Persuasion (that may be the highest compliment I pay either of you all year; cherish it). Captain Harville and Anne Elliot provide a model for amicable dispute in their friendly and good-natured debate about the relative merits of female and male affections and constancy. After stating that probably no man and woman would agree, Captain Harville mentions that all histories are against Anne - books, songs, proverbs (he never opened a book in his life without seeing something about woman's inconstancy) - but himself adds that they were all written by men. Agreeing with the historical male advantage (which struck me as similar to the points made against Team Woman in the thread debate as all originating from a male-favouring perspective), Anne declines to allow books to prove anything.

Considering that I amplify the authorial voice of women perhaps more than anyone else here, I hardly require any lectures. Re-read Three Guineas (there; another compliment).


Dadddy cont'd: The point is that women have a real beef against The Patriarchy and how it has oppressed us, and you seem quite often to take opportunities to defend The Patriarchy and make things women's fault. We don't appreciate that. That's why the responses to you come across as bitter. I continue to engage with you because I think you can learn, in fact I've seen it when you revised your assumptions on how much danger women really are in from men they date. I think you just need to stop going on the defensive when we complain about The Patriarchy, as if you think we're accusing you personally. We aren't. If you truly want civilised debate, consider letting these comments pass, as we've suffered enough to have earned them. Thank you.


BiDanFan, please tell us you aren't letting The Patriarchy go down on you all the time.


@1 Dan already had a contest for naming the crusty cum on the tip that prevents peeing in a straight line first thing in the morning; hard to believe that nobody else here remembered. The winning neologism was: "sement."


Apparently hunter’s expertise in women’s hair extends to other body parts.


Of course, the bitter woman line. Dadddy, you keep pulling out all the cliches. Classic.
You won’t be involved in interesting conversations here, if you continue to have your ears closed to what intelligent women, dare I say feminists, talk about. Ones who don’t need sexist pricks like you or poor sad men like hunter in their lives. What you’ll get is responses to your sexist diatribes.
The beauty of most of the men who comment here is that they have worked thru a lot of their Patriarchal training, and intelligent conversation happens with them, because they are not sexists pricks. Comprende?
Who cares why women choose their friends. It’s another way you lot try to contain and define us. Attractiveness like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.
Why am I here, you ask. Community is why, intelligent people from all over the world. I used to have pen pals in my youth, from countries all over. Communication here is quicker and I never talked about sex with them.


Thanks Grizelda;


Mr Venn, I don’t know if I’ve got that book. Horrors. I know. Hardly require any lectures, eh? Bit late to demand that.
Women luckily forced their way as writers, it’s with visual arts I get crazy mad. Nowhere is a woman visual artist exalted the way men artists have been. One or two have been allowed to feature here and there, in books of artistic excellence. With western art that is.
With art from Australian Aborigines, many women are seen as being equal in high quality as the men.


@73 Dadddy: Re-read LavaGirl @71 & @83. Trolls like you and @79 live for Patriarchy and restricting women, desperate to keep cruelly misogynist practices stemming from the 14th century still going. Do you have to pay for sex to get any? Ever wonder why that is? You raised girls? I feel sorry for them given your attitude of entitlement and arrogance.
@71 & @83 LavaGirl, you just plain ROCK! Keep on batting 1000.
@81 Biologist in the stix: I missed that one. Clever!


@82 CMDwannabe: Nah, he's just desperate for attention, as usual.


Who's up for this week's Hunsky With Extra Lobster?


Head meet desk.
Y'all, "The Patriarchy" does not mean "men." The Patriarchy is the system of gender biases and expectations that we ALL have ingrained into us, and whose general effect is to disadvantage women.
Example. This past weekend I went to dinner with a male date. I asked for the bill. I had my wallet in front of me when they brought it. I put my card in the tray, I instructed the waitress how much to add for tip. She then handed the card reader to my date, and stared expectantly at him while I gawped, out of eyeshot. That is Patriarchy, and there is no particular man to blame here.


The Patriarchy means men since forever have determined the public sphere. Yes, women have been complicit because what choice was there? Someone had to raise the children. Someone had to tend the house. Someone had to cook.
It’s the men who have to relinquish the power, thru changes in how they see and treat women and children. And the sharing of public and private work and decision making.
I hope you corrected the waitress Fan, so she will have had to face her prejudices.


It’s not about blame anyway Fan. It’s about structures and patterns. Capitalism strangles us all and Patriarchy the women a bit more. And in places like Saudi Arabia, a lot more.


@89 BiDanFan
Thank you very much for sharing that "Example".

Along with being an example of The Patriarchy, I wonder if that turns out to increase a waitress' tips (and to also be another example of what's wrong with the gratuity-system) as thanks for such enabling of male power.


ag @86
"Do you have to pay for sex to get any? Ever wonder why that is?"
Yes and yes.


Dadddy @93: No, I have not lost track of the minority of situations where The Patriarchy disadvantages men. Child custody. Police violence. Women may be expected to compete based on appearance, but men are expected to refrain from showing emotions like grief and fear, which leads to increased rates of mental illness and suicide. Male victims of rape and domestic violence not being taken seriously. Need I go on? You would think that any man who was aware of these problems would be just as opposed to The Patriarchy as feminists are. The fact that so many are not indicates that most believe they have more to fear from women gaining equality, or that -- indeed -- they completely misunderstand terms like "patriarchy" and "toxic masculinity," preferring to take these as personal attacks, and to hurl insults ("self-serving propaganda") back at those who would attempt to help them.


Dadddy @93: Why is it that so many men feel that talk of The Patriarchy is directed at them personally? It's nothing to do with what it's like to be you.

BiDanFan @95: There's been a movement amongst men for decades to liberate ourselves from The Patriarchy. Check out Iron John by Robert Bly (1990). Also Google "Broflake".


Dadddy @99: Thanks for the link. It's good that after reading Iron John, we weren't all cast in iron and unable to develop further. I was talking about the movement in the early 90s toward men becoming more aware and open, mostly, for me at the time, in relation to other men and throwing of the shackles of expectations around masculinity.

One thing we learned was to listen. These days, it's a good idea to listen to what virtually all the women are saying about their experiences. Ditto for people of colour, different sexual and gender configurations. People are speaking out.


You were attacked personally Dadddy, because your words were sexist. Imagine if you got on these threads and started mouthing off stereotypes about gay people, or continued phobic comments about trans women.
Much as men like you and clueless Hunter think women are living and dressing and etc for men, it just ain’t so. Of course hetro women want to attract men, want intimacy with men.
Thing is, we got choice.
Dinosaurs like you and hunter, who try to fog up the story; pass you lot by. Because other men do know what is being said by women, by feminists, and it doesn’t threaten them. Listen and learn.


There is a strange sort of anti-science progressivism (or, at least, something which fancies itself to be progressive but is actually nothing of the sort) afoot these days which enables reactionaries like Lavagirl @42 to shut down all discussion at with the mere mention of "muh patriarchy." And once the call goes out to the tribe, the pile-on to correct the inexcusable thoughtcrime begins.

Intrasexual competition is a thing that exists among men AND women, and there is nothing wrong with bringing it up. Bizarrely, Lavagirl actually robs agency from women by denying it.


@93, @97, @98, @99 Fred and Barney: Why don't you trolling cavemen just quit while you're two thousand centuries behind?
@95 BiDanFan: Kudos for slamming it out of the park again. Keep on rocking the house!
@96 fubar: Thank you for sharing a helpful link.
@100 fubar: Thank you and bless you, too, for your wonderful comment--AND-!!!!---Congrats, on scoring this week's Hunsky With Extra Lobster Award! I hope you get your wish (@33) for pizza with clams, too! Savor the riches.


@101 LavaGirl: Brilliantly said, and right up there with BiDanFan. Agreed, and seconded.


Hey, look! Three Prehistoric Stooges! No waiting:
Hunter= Fred
Dadddy = Barney
Sporty = Joe Rockhead

What next--are you going to start a rock group?


Nobody said there isn’t competition between people, kits @103. It’s reducing women and how they behave to stereotypes and generalizations. That all women choose friends because of A. Or all women dress a certain way because of B. That all women compete to gain male attention.
Dadddy didn’t start any discussion, he claimed straight up how it is for women, always fighting over those boys and how they get cheered on from the sidelines by the Patriarchy.
Piled on, what, you don’t believe women come independently to be fed up with these attitudes? That’s how much you know about agency.
You scared of a little talk around male privilege too, eh? Lots of sites elsewhere that the world Patriarchy is seen as a slur, maybe you broflakes, thanks for that word fubar, can mingle on those sites with like minded souls.
You utter sexist crap, on a site like this, then mate, you won’t get away with it.
reactionary.. indeed.. to a world view created by some men to suit their superficial views of women. Because, slipping past these men’s definitions of who we are and not needing their approval, heavens know what women might achieve. Or how much fun they can have.


Dadddy: Revisiting your post @99 after reading the article you linked. The article was from 1991 (which I should have immediately noticed from the URL), and was a reaction to the book; not the movement that was fuelled by it. Bly's work is not "now been deemed a part of the problem" based on this opinion piece written 28 years ago. I have to conclude you're either trolling or just lazy.


"There is no inconstancy Mr Venn, women are not defineable by men."

If you Define them,
you can Own them.

"To me, you come off like a ranting, slurring, bitter old drunk, endlessly perseverating on your grudges, and always looking for scapegoats to blame for whatever it was that's left you so damaged. If you really don't drink, maybe you should.

I'm here to have interesting conversations, civilized debate... " --ohdaDDDy

And it couldn't BE any fucking more Obvious.

"Nonsense! You shave because it satisfies the gaze of the Patriarchy." --Hunter78

It IS all about you, '78 Hunter!
Don't EVER be dissuaded.

"One thing we learned was to listen. These days, it's a good idea to listen to what virtually all the women are saying about their experiences. Ditto for people of colour, different sexual and gender configurations." --fuckedupbeyondallrecognition?

I do not think so.
Well. said.


@76 vennominon: Sorry to have missed your earlier comment, venn. Thank you for the insight and for agreeing with LavaGirl and moi. This is one of many reasons I go back through the thread(s) and re-read.
@108 fubar: Thank you for calling Dadddy on his bullshit.


Fubar @96: I know not all men; I should have said many, not most, men are okay with the status quo. (Or just afraid to challenge it lest their "man" credentials be questioned.) I am fortunate that most of my men friends are feminists in deed, whether they choose to label themselves as such or not. LavaGirl has mentioned Iron John on several occasions. Lots of men are aware and fighting stereotypes.

Dadddy @97: The fact that you see gendered differences as a-okay indicates to me that you, personally, generally match those gendered roles and characteristics, therefore you don't see any real problem with them. It's as if someone somewhere decreed, "Everyone must dye their hair purple!" I'd say, what's the problem? (If I had no empathy, that is.) Many of us do NOT fit the expectations of our gender, and we feel -- going back to CMD's comment -- trapped by them. We don't think it's right to use "evolution" as a smokescreen for dictating or excusing behaviour. It may have served us well in the past, as you say, but that world is gone and no longer relevant to current society. Humans have evolved beyond those roles.

I agree that birth control pills brought the fight for gender equality forward by generations. Women were indeed oppressed by their own wombs. Capitalism is a different discussion. For many it just saddled them with the need to work AND perform all of the domestic and child-rearing chores, so a far more mixed bag there.

I'd also point out that your final paragraph can be summed up by one word: intersectionality. That is exactly what feminists mean when they use that word, that gendered privilege does not exist in a vacuum. That does not mean, however, that for instance a short man has not benefited from being a man.

Dadddy @102: Oddly, that was my suggestion too, though phrased less like a 12-year-old wrote it, and of course, applicable to any gender:

Kitsch @103: That's funny, I thought I was the one who -started- the discussion by mentioning The Patriarchy (@34). If Lava or anyone tried to "shut it down," it wasn't very successful, was it? :)


Good post kristofarian @109, thank you. And thank you fubar for your comments.
I know I see red when men try to define women and reduce us to flash cards. It’s so demeaning and sets off decades of culture telling one how to be.
Women are full humans, just like men are. We want a full life, just as they do.
I love that Dan Savage gives us the space to be full women in print.
Love you Daniel.


Just popping in to applaud kristofarian on mastery @109 of the art of making points by quoting people.


Thanks, cu2, and LG.

Some people say the darndest things, don't they?


And still he rumbles. Fine for you Dadddy, being white, I assume, and a man. Your perceptions come from your position of privilege and we’ve all seen how you see women, so your “ I’ll take each as they present themselves” Bull, is exposed as just so much tripe.
Give it to you, you’ve got an ego on you.
And Robert Bly at least tried to find a way forward for men, when women were demanding change with a capital D. And he’s still alive and an old man, so he must have worked something out.
Whatever masculinity is, is not my concern. I don’t have it. What it should stop being is the guardian of Women. We don’t need guardians. We don’t need others telling us why we do what we do. We know. It’s an arrogant and rude position to have in life.


Yes kristofarian, some people say the darndest things.
I know you guys are out there.
Good men who enjoy letting women be, and trusting the world won’t collapse.