Is LW's boyfriend Jerramy Stevens?

A little surprised by Dan's answer, but I agree. I understand her hesitation in giving an ultimatum—no one wants to be THAT partner—but it's completely fair to judge others by the company they keep. If I had a partner that kept someone like that in their life incident after incident my respect for them would be dwindling.

Some non-doormat types (well, modified doormat?) keep contact with crazy exes because they feel like they need to help them. Not much about this example points to that besides helping her mom, but it is possible he gets something out of being her therapist/fixer.

“Honey, I know she’s a friend of yours from way back, but given how long her drinking and violent tendencies have gone unaddressed, she is unlikely to ever stop — and her behaviors could really get you into trouble. I don’t want to have to come bail you out because you wound up charged as an accessory to one of her violent crimes. Or visit you at the hospital. Or both. Could you please ensure I’ll never have to face that? Because I don’t think I can continue with sweet, wonderful you so long as I must dread what might happen to you because of her.”

Nope, Dan. He is already seeing his Ex on the DL, he is not going to give her up now. So all that will happen is THIS girl will eventually have to confront him and say she is OUT, because if he has put up with this for 10 years, he won't change now.

So GOB wants her BF to stop being friends with someone he is friends with because GOB doesn't like her. Gee, that's not pushy and controlling at all.

@6 this isn't victim-blaming until you gender-flip it.

6 no, she’s saying I don’t want a toxic, violent, drunk in my life, so if she’s the price of admission, no thanks. He can make his own decision here.

The BF has been friends with the ex longer than they were an item. Fifteen years is a long friendship. It's hard to make friends like that at 36.

He's been with the LW for less than a year. If the LW were to straight up tell him he isn't allowed to keep his friendship of fifteen years, that would be very controlling. Threatening to end their relationship over this verges on abusive, given that she doesn't have to interact with this woman at all.

Which isn't to say that BF isn't a doormat... It sounds like he is, and that his current GF is the one stepping on him. Maybe his ex/friend is as well.

He should dump his wannabe-boss/GF and examine his tendency to let toxic women run roughshod over his life.

@10 I think that's really the crux of the issue. She can't tell him to cut people out of his life, but she can decide that he might actually prove to be an idiot.

That said, toxic people generally don't respond to nuance—they don't just disappear because you stopped talking to them. He might just be avoiding a nasty confrontation, albeit potentially at the expense of another relationship.

I like #4's spin on it, and I think #6 is an idiot - she doesn't want this woman gone because "she doesn't like her"; she wants her gone because she's dangerous. Like the difference between someone who revs the motor every time they park, even it it's two AM and wakes everyone, and someone who drives drunk. A difference that matters, whether you, randommonkey, acknowledge it or not.

And if he values this "friendship" too much to give it up, regardless of the damage it is doing to him and the risk of much more serious harm it represents - well, that's his choice, isn't it? And exactly why it /is/ reasonable to draw the line and hold it: because LW doesn't need to take that damage just because he's willing to. I gave up a friendship of 23 years because she was willing to harm me for her benefit; this woman isn't even as rational as that, and should be given the boot, pronto. Yes, it hurts giving that up; but it hurts less than continuing to be dragged through the ringer without end.

If the BF is a doormat because he doesn't want to upset anyone, maybe the move is to get him to see a therapist (esp. since the friendship with the ex includes some level of violence). Of course, once the BF sees a therapist and starts standing up for himself instead of doing things on the DL, that standing up is going to include telling the LW to fuck off from time to time. I don't know if she'll want that. I know that's a cynical read and I do trust that the LW is concerned that the BF is being manipulated but the current methods to keep him away (and by extension, free from the ex's violence) haven't worked.

@6 "This girl has never been nice to me EVER. The few times we did hang out...she would go from making passive aggressive comments to being a full-on bitch. The last time we hung out I honestly thought it was going to end in a physical altercation, which is also not out of character for her. She has a long history of being a violent drunk."

Not wanting someone like that around actually isn't pushy or controlling. It's just rational.

I don't think it would be controlling to cut out a violent/dangerous person, but it does seem a bit controlling to use his possible doormat problem against him.

This really reeks of an abusive relationship to me (friendships can be abusive) and I think it's important when having the "price of admission" talk to acknowledge that breaking off a relationship with an abusive person can be dangerous. There's a very real chance they will flip their shit and resort to harassment, stalking and violence, which she's already proven herself capable of. For men being abused it can be especially good to hear that they will be heard and supported if that happens.

So I think the conversation has to include a reassurance from the girlfriend that if he does decide to break it off with the ex, she will be there to help deal with the potential fallout. It's totally fair to ask that he cut off ties with this toxic nightmare. But I do think that needs to be paired with some sort of promise that she won't bounce if ex shows up with trouble. I do think that's a moral imperative if you're asking a partner to possibly endanger themselves.

I would dump the boyfriend. It's just not worth it. His ex sounds crazy. The ex could get violent with the LW if the boyfriend ends the friendship. Crazy Ex Gf will probably blame new GF/LW. Run while you can!

i have two friends. one says she is going to leave if i keep seeing the other; the other says (credibly) if i cut her out, she'll cut out my liver and eat it raw.

no contest there, i need my liver intact.

4 nailed it. Exactly the right thing to say, and then take #17's advice if nothing changes very soon (like maybe a week) afterward. Dan was a bit too lax on this one.

Wonder why it was so obvious to Dan in this case that the boyfriend might have Issues That Need Addressing? Great analysis, Dan, but again you missed the opportunity to advise this LW to flag up the conflict avoidance with her boyfriend and urge him to work on it for his own sake, whether she stays with him or not.

And yeah. LW, you don't get to tell someone they can make their own decision on something then bitch that they made their own decision, if you don't like the decision. Either turn a blind eye to the friendship or be honest about the fact that you want him to end it. But be ready for him to choose a 10-year friendship, toxic as it may be, over a 10-month "relationship." If you think that at this stage you're entitled to make decisions for him, you're just another example of his pattern of poor choices.

Dougsf @2: Oh, a lot of people want to be THAT partner! Be glad you haven't dated any of them.

Random @6/Kitsch @9/Surfrat @13: Bingo.

Fred @14; Indeed, and thus far LW has handled it correctly -- said that -she- doesn't want to be around Ex-GF, and encouraged Boyfriend to drop her but left the decision up to him. Unfortunately it seems she only gave lip service to leaving the decision up to him.

Alcohol @17: Danger to herself sounds like the best argument LW could make for ending this relationship. Well said.

Slomo @18: No contest there, drop them both.

I didn't read the part where the bf's behavior is changed after he hangs out or talks with the ex. Or the part where he acts immature (defensive, lying, passive-aggressive) over the subject. Or the part where he is negatively impacted at all by his ex. I guess Dan edited it all out.

I did read the part where LW was worried about something that might someday happen because the ex is a bitch and drinks and doesn't like her and how dare she be friends with her bf. I did read the part where LW tries to act all mature and tell him "you're an adult," which was nice of her, and the part where she spied on him and snuck around to find out if he had interpreted her signals properly ("I don't want you hanging around her but you're an adult" = "I don't want you hanging around her but I'm too scared to make demands on you because it makes me look like an insecure and childish.")

So perhaps Dan is correct, as he got to read the real letter, and not the one he published. But I didn't see anything at all that would describe bf as having some sort of doormat issues.

Now, it could be that Dan believes that taking your partner at their word is being a doormat. In which case, I suppose, bf's proper response should be something like, "I do what I damn well want!" Thus these two should stay together. But since bf respects both LW (and keeps the relationship with ex far away from her) and himself (by valuing his own relationships and not letting them be hostage) then he's obviously a doormat and should be dumped.

It sounds like GOB, her boyfriend, and his violent ex are solidly locked in a Karpman's drama triangle, with GOB and the ex perpetually switching between the roles of "victim" and "persecutor", and the BF adopting the mantle of "rescuer". Perhaps in addition to "doormat-ish tendencies", he also suffers from a hero complex. As Stephen Karpman wrote back in 1968, the only effective way to end a drama triangle is for one person to recognise the pattern and consciously step out of role.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle

I don't think Dan's solution would work. GOB isn't willing to give up her boyfriend anyway (she's asking "should I confront him or accept this?", not "should I DTMFA?"), and I guarantee that, with things as they are, the boyfriend isn't going to see this ultimatum as a reasonable price of admission, shrug his shoulders, and give up a relationship/friendship of 15 years. Should the LW take Dan's advice, I suspect one of three things will happen. A, he effectively calls her bluff and says he can't give up the ex (cue any number of justifications), or that he can't do it right now, etc. This will be crushing to the LW's self-esteem and she'll struggle to see this as anything other than a "her over me" situation. B, he promises to let go of the friendship to appease the LW, but goes into deep stealth mode instead. This will create a scenario where the boyfriend is torn between feelings of guilt and shame on one hand, and illicit excitement on the other, and the LW will undoubtedly feel betrayed and cheated on when it all goes tits up. C, he caves and stops talking to the ex, not because he wants to, but because he has to. This will undoubtedly create deep festering feelings of resentment towards the LW, who "made him" sacrifice a meaningful friendship to prop up her insecurities (the ex will probably ramp up the victim angle at this point).

Don't do it, LW.

Instead of making an ultimatum (persecutor mode), or pleading/ getting upset (victim mode), you need to flip the script. Sit the boyfriend down and start a calm, honest, difficult dialogue about this situation. You've made your feelings clear. Now listen to him. Why does he want to be friends with this woman anyway? What does he get out of it? Is it because, as Dan suggests, he's afraid of conflict and they have (abusive/codependent) history? Is it because he thinks he's the only one who could help her? Is it because, deep down, he's drawn to the excitement of this emotional rollercoaster? Resist the urge to give in to emotions and work on creating a "safe space" (ugh) where you can both talk openly and calmly about your feelings. He won't be able to be honest with you about this as long as he feels that being honest would only upset you and lead to another argument.

Meanwhile, work on building an emotional firewall between yourself and the ex's drama. Don't get upset, don't get involved, and don't respond to provocation. When he talks to you about yet another drunken incident/ assault/ jail stint/ general madness (and he needs to be able to talk to you about it), try to respond as if you were hearing this from a good friend, rather than a boyfriend: be sympathetic, be supportive, offer constructive advice - then change the subject. Don't lash out in frustration even if you've been on this merry-go-round a thousand times.

This is gonna take A LOT of patience and emotional resilience, LW, but you gotta play the long game if you want to fix this. You can't make him see she's a "toxic and violent chaos agent", he needs to come to that realisation by himself. And that's not gonna happen with the drama triangle in play.

Either that, or you leave. Good luck!

Nobodaddy @23: Where did you read Dan telling LW to dump the boyfriend? I read him advising her to take advantage of his doormatish tendencies and pressure him to stop being friends with the ex.

Margarita @24: Excellent advice.

This is one that turns on what the LW hopes for in the medium-to-long term. Does she want a LTR with her bf? Want to start a family with him? (She's a little young to be thinking about that--but he's not). Nothing she says sound either committed in her mind or that positive for an LTR. He's caring, gives her lots of attention, treats her well, and the sex is good. No 'we have the same goals in life'. No 'we like doing exactly the same things, down to cooking together and watching Jimmy late at night' (whichever Jimmy). No 'we're both GOT addicts'. What's in her mind? Does she suppose that her bf will eventually get back together with his violent ex, with this woman who has such a hold on him? That this is the reason they're still close, ten years after break-up?

Imv, this would be a much better conversation to have than the 'it's her or me' conversation. (I would think the one going, the one being shunted, in this case would be the LW). Presumably GOB has had the 'why are you still friends with this violent woman?' conversation before. (The answer has been, 'she needs me'. Or the people round her need him). Maybe add to this, '...because the natural inference would be that you imagine--when she's over her troubles, perhaps--that you're getting back together with her'. Has she said this to her guy? His answer could be revealing.

@24. Lost Margarita. I'd think he is drawn to, is pretty deeply invested in, the emotional rollercoaster of his ex's life. In all probability it connotes intensity and authenticity to him.

He was with his ex between 21 and 26, for the most formative emotional and sexual experiences of his adult life. At some level, he thinks that life IS like how it was for him when he was with her: that the madness is urgent, compelling. He's stepped back, though, from the extreme view that your sexual partner is someone who loses it and slugs you with a vodka bottle. Almost certainly, the reason he's with GOB is that she's not like that--she's 'sweet', in her word for him, kind; has good impulses; is a bit self-effacing. Her strategy has to be to build many ways in which they are together (through shared interests e.g. watching films, doing stuff), against the backdrop of which his helping his ex will be exceptional. And it will come to seem exceptional--anomalous, weird, not what most people, most friends, do together or are like, to her bf. In other words, she needs to step up and be older than her years. Instead of thinking about her relationship in terms of how he makes her feel (how 'caring' he is for her, how he makes her feel), she has to think about what she can do for him.

Not wanting snarky, violent people in your life is a totally reasonable price of admission. Even if boyfriend is keeping it on the down low, she is obviously still there and that says a lot about him. Sneaking around to continue seeing this toxic person tells you loud and clear where his priorities are, and it ain’t with you honey. Now you need to communicate loud and clear that she needs to become a FRIEND and not a secondary relationship, and that you don’t expect him to totally ghost her, but he needs to dial it WAY BACK and that is not open to negotiation. I agree that this guy is a wishy-washy people-pleaser who is unlikely to make the hard decision without strong motivation. Give him that motivation in a nice but totally firm way, and if the little weasel still can’t put her in the friend zone, lick your wounds and move on. This will be a constant irritation for you in the best case scenario and a “I’m so sorry, I finally realized I just can’t live without her” in the worst.

If I was forced by a new GF to dump either my friend of 15 years or the new GF, I’d dump the new GF. Even if the friend was unhealthy.

The better (actually THE ONLY) way for this lady to go away forever, is for your BF to decide he deserves better. If she was 100% gone, there’s a good chance he will find someone else to do the same thing to him. He has stuck around for 15 years for a REASON. Which you can encourage him to contemplate, sure, but still isn’t your call. He could use a therapist to help him figure out what makes this friendship worth all the drama for him, but that isn’t your call either.

Are you willing to wait patiently for him to grow some healthy boundaries? Or is this a dealbreaker for you? THAT is the only choice you really have here. Everything else is you trying to control someone else’s behavior. Not a good look. ESPECIALLY on a new GF.

Maybe Dan's right he's doormat-ish.

But GOB needs to read her own letter. She "told him...he...can make his own choices" yet still ends the letter asking if she "Should...let my boyfriend make his own decisions". (C'mon now GOB, you gotta meet us halfway here.)

"that he still talks to her behind my back honestly is hurtful to me, but I don’t know what to do about it". Would you rather know? If so go back in time and say so!

Or, uh, if you've changed your mind and don't want him to make his own decisions, you could take the manipulative approach (which might work regardless of the accuracy of Dan's "doormat-ish" assessment) Dan suggested and try to make the decision for your BF.

Or should I say "a" decision, since it's not inconceivable he's not doormatish and will dump GOB for trying to dictate his friends. (Queue all of Dan's previous advice about /not/ doing that.)

GOB, is it "her or you?" Then you could just say that. Otherwise (in other words if this isn't a dealbreaker for GOB [and she didn't frame it as such])...

I wouldn't be surprised if Dan's right that the BF has some psychological issue(s) that could be related to his having been with and now being friends with someone who's dangerous. In which case, perhaps GOB might ask him to try to get past this with therapy(1). And get some herself. Being doormat-ish is a relatively easy nut to crack in therapy. Not so sure about whatever (perhaps as she mentioned a "a self-confidence issue, which is the root of doormatish-ness and also not a tough nut to crack) led GOB's letter to be less clear to her than it is to others.

(1) Be forewarned, GOB, that it your BF gets therapy for whatever caused him to be with the dangerous ex, one never knows if he'll also get over what caused him to be with you. No offense intended GOB, while your letter is a little unfocused, it gives us no reason to think you've not a catch. I'd just suggest you both grow in the same direction to remain compatible.

"Dan, my girlfriend was abused in a past relationship, and she won't cut the whole out of her life! He's a drunk and hasn't stopped drinking. Should I dump her? "

"Yes. Your girlfriend is a pathetic doormat and lazy bitch for not doing something sooner."

Y'all blind?

Sporty, you illiterate? She didn't ask if she should dump him. Your letter would be better phrased, "Dan, my girlfriend was abused in a past relationship, and she won't cut the whole out of her life! He's a drunk and hasn't stopped drinking. Should I show her I can be just as abusive by forbidding her to see him?"
Dan at least read and answered the question she asked.

It's also YOUR value judgment, not Dan's, that people with doormat-ish tendencies are pathetic, lazy bitches. Dan never said anything along those lines.

He's sleeping with her. On and off for the last 15 years. She's the Camilla in your relationship.

The actual question she asked was, "Should I confront him?" And the answer seems to be yes. She should say, "I know you're hiding your contact with Ex because you know that I'm not okay with it, in spite of my saying you should make your own decision. That's on me; I wanted you to decide to stop being friends with her. But I'm not okay with it and I'm not okay with your lying about it. If you're going to continue seeing her, at least be honest. I'd really prefer that you not see her because she's bad for you, and I don't know why you want to keep her in your life." Then, she should prepare to make her next move based on what he decides, because she was right the first time -- it IS his decision. She can't MAKE him cut off contact -- a man can't MAKE his girlfriend cut off contact with anyone, either. So there is no reverse-the-genders issue here. If she had asked the question "should I dump him," Sporty, what would you have advised?

@34
You're telling me with a straight face that "doormat" is a value neutral term?

The bigger question is, how is it, in 2019, the entire debate in this thread has been "How harshly should we judge this person for failing to stop their abuser?". I can only assume you'd be upset if we had such a conversation about a female victim (and we probably have, and you probably pointed it out!). I guess what I'm saying is, this is where the rubber meets the road when it comes to gender-equity. Put up or shut up, please!

You're telling ME with a straight face that from where you're sitting, this man DOESN'T have "doormat-ish tendencies"?

Not only is he maintaining a relationship with someone who is abusive, but he's kowtowing to a relatively new partner's preferences by hiding his contact with someone rather than stand up for himself and tell her that he'll be friends with whoever he pleases. If it walks like a doormat and lies like a doormat...
Dan went on to clarify that "doormat-like tendencies" means "conflict avoidant," not "lazy, pathetic bitch." I agree with that assessment. He's avoiding conflict by hiding the texts and lying about his plans. This WILL come back to bite him on the ass, and this, not a particular friend, is what he should be addressing. And that, too, has nothing to do with his gender, everything to do with his predisposition and history. How do you suggest GOB "stop her boyfriend's abuser" without being abusive herself? How would you suggest a man in his position "stop their abuser"?

If the genders were reversed the advice would be the same - don't try to "save" them but be honest and clear in your boundaries. She can't demand he dump the friend, but she can say that friendship is a deal breaker and she'd be completely in the right to do so. If my partner had a violent friend who treated me terribly I would expect them to stand up for me. His solution to hide the friendship just validates the ex's behavior while ramping up the lw's paranoia.

So LW gave BF free will, but wants to confront him because he made the "wrong" choice. Someone of that ilk does not deserve "an incredibly sweet, caring, and affectionate guy who goes out of his way to make me feel appreciated. Not to mention, he’s super fun to hang out with! And the sex is fantastic!"

Accordingly, yes. Confront him. One or the other of them will then get what (s)he deserves. Either he'll DTMFA, which she'll deserve, or, if he'll keep her, he'll deserve her.

Let's break this down a little farther. You're mid-20s, he's mid-30s. Where exactly do you see this relationship going? Marriage? Kids? Chilling for a while or what?

If you're only chilling while the vibe is great, I'd definitely draw a line at ever seeing this woman again... but he can do whatever when you aren't around.

If you're looking for a longer term arrangement the drunk ex needs to go.

(Oh, and I draw a very very strong line at violent or abusive drunks. I have a friend with a permanent scar on his face because of a vodka bottle. Yeah, that's realllllly funny.)

One aspect of this could be that the ex gf is satisfying some part of the LW’s bf. Her unhinged nature reflecting a part of his that he compartmentalises. And the sneaking around behind LW’s back still seeing this woman is passive aggressive. He’s not the sweet boy you think he is LW.

I fail to see a reason for a gender war in this case. Flipped genders will still highlight the fact that the ex is indeed a violent drunk and LW, being a man or a woman, has good reasons to question continuing dating someone who fails to acknowledge it.

@38 The point is his tendencies don't matter.

She* definitely needs to take out Life Insurance on his ass,
she has bf tell exxy they're Done.

He may be her sole link to 'keeping it together.'
Or not.

*any one else wanna place a bet?

@18 -- I believe Hannibal Lecter would strongly disagree with friend #2.
Plus flava beans.

@38 I'm not advocating that anyone is responsible (besides the ex) for stopping the abuse.
For all the words you've spent defending why victims don't go to the police, why they don't leave, etc, I'd expect you to have half a fucking clue. Of course, it's because you believe women are too weak to take matters into their own hands - apparently only men are capable? That's your feminist take? For all the words you spent defending why victims don't go to the police, why they don't leave, etc, I'd expect you to have half a fucking clue - yet here you are, standing on 0.

I agree with those saying this isn't her call.

She gets to decide how much she wants to hear about it, but she doesn't get to pick her partner's friends for him.

Issuing an ultimatum would probably just lead to him hiding the relationship and growing closer to the violent ex.

Geesh, BiDanFan, why on Earth would you promote Cannibalism?!

"Slomo @18: No contest there, drop them both." -- @ 22

Erica@47 ~ "...this isn't her call. She gets to decide how much she wants to hear about it, but she doesn't get to pick her partner's friends for him..."

Yes and no. She can't pick his friends, but she's totally within her rights to say, "I guess I didn't express myself clearly enough before. Keep seeing your "ex" as an "alternate girlfriend" and the two of us will have no future. Demote her to actual friend (just like Bob at the office is your friend ~ the rare check-in and no more) and we can have a future. You get no further warnings. Cross the line and we're done." If the BF was hanging out with a convicted serial rapist, nobody would say, "Oh, you can't choose his friends for him!"
It's not blackmail, it's not controlling behavior, it's putting her boundaries in clear focus, and we all get to have boundaries. Boyfriend can decide if he wants to live by those rules... although I bet he's going to continue his infatuation with the "bad girl" he can't bear to part with.

Hi all, I’m the original LW, and I just wanted to make a few points based on the many comments that were made (also, big THANK YOU to everyone who’s given advice here including Dan).

I do see marriage in a cards with me and the BF (since that was often asked). We enjoy the same activities and have similar goals/plans. Obviously we’re in still in the early stages, but we’ve discussed being an LTR and we’re both way down for it.
Part of the reason why I didn’t want to jump down my BF’s throat about being friends with her is because I DON’T want to be pushy/abusive, especially since I’ve been in relationships where my SO forbid me from seeing friends (given, none of my friends had issues like this woman, but still).
I agree that the gender-flip thing is a good point, and I have to wonder how much of a pass his ex is getting as an abuser because she’s female.
My BF is not Jerramy Stevens.

I agree with Dopeameanie @30 - clearly the LW doesn't understand why these two are still friends, but they are. For 15 years, which is a long time. And what harm is it doing the LW? None, except that she doesn't like the ex. So what? Both people in a relationship need friends outside the relationship, and this is one of them. Just leave it alone, you don't understand it and you don't need to.

To those psychoanalyzing the ex - that's fun and all, but we don't know her any more than the LW does. And the BF, who does actually know her, is her friend, which should count for something. The ex can't be the total loss the LW claims she is.

Hi GOB666; welcome. If it was me I’d think again before making long term plans with this man. A person is judged by the company he keeps.. and this woman sounds a nightmare. I’d expect a prospective ltr partner to have closed her down when she was rude to you, why didn’t he?

@51 As an addendum - an ex of mine was disliked by all of my friends. All of them. And, it turned out, they had good reason to dislike him - he treated them contemptuously and was not a nice person to be around. For them. Me, he treated well. He was smart and funny and we had a great time together. When none of my other friends were around.

Yes, he was a narcissist, yes he was mean to my other friends - but we laughed a lot together, he was kind when I needed that, and I miss him terribly sometimes.

Relationships - friends, lovers, whatever - often work in ways that are hidden from outsiders. That's ok. You don't have to understand someone else's relationships, but you do need to treat them with respect, and realize that there is something valuable there, even if you can't see it yourself.

DonnyKlicious@49

Yeah, I'm reasonably certain that GOB's boyfriend doesn't see his friendship with the ex as a "secondary relationship", "alternate girlfriend" or anything of the sort.

The problem with your proposal is that it gives the threatened partner absolute power to define the terms ~of the situation which makes them feel threatened~. First they get to unilaterally decree that the friendship they don't like is a "secondary relationship" and equate it to emotional infidelity. Then they get to dictate to their SO what an acceptable friendship should look like ("the rare check-in and no more"). Then they get to lay down a self-righteous but conveniently vague ultimatum ("Cross the line and we're done" - the line, of course, being "anything that makes me feel uncomfortable", and therefore subject to future revisions). And best of all, they get to do all this from the moral high ground of "putting their boundaries in clear focus", rather than, you know, being a controlling shitbag.

@31 curious & @34 Bi. Yes.

She should certainly row back on the 'I don't support your friendship but you're an adult' statement. He responded by keeping his dealings with his ex from her. Well, how else was he going to respond? He's behaving as she indicated; and yet she says he's acting on the DL! Say instead something like, 'look, I didn't mean to drive your talking with your ex underground'. Clothe it in concern for her e.g. 'if she does anything really extreme and dangerous, and that impacts on us, I'll have to know'. Make his ex's actions seem unappealing, unusual, marginal. As they are. Be the reliable one. The adult in the room.

I don't understand Sportlandia's idea about swapping the genders. A woman taking a swing at a man with a vodka bottle is not the same thing as a man taking a swing at a woman. The first is the stupid, defiant act of someone with frustrations. The second can be the prelude to serious violent assault or rape.

@49. Donny is right about the depth of her bf's attraction to his ex. What was he drinking when she was drinking vodka? Orangeade? He repeats the story because it lets him forget the degree of his complicity in his ex's losing control. Why can't he say something like, 'I'll come out to check on your mother after you lashed out at her ... but I'll also be making a statement about your drinking and meltdowns to the police'?

@50. GOB666. How big a part of your bf's life is his ex? What efforts does he make to screen you from her out-of-control behavior?

It's not being pushy or abusive to tell him he has to keep his interaction with her within bounds. Bounds of time, especially.

Lost@54 ~ There’s nothing controlling or shitbaggy about not wanting your possible LTR boyfriend to be hanging with an ex that treats you like shit and seems to hold an “unreasonably” large place in his life. I definitively wouldn’t accept that if it was my supposedly loving partner doing that to me. That’s a standard I have the right to have, and would be (and has been) a dealbreaker. It would be different if this was just a friend in the true sense of the word. My ex-wife and my current love (and my current love and HER ex) get along fine because we all know those relationships are long over and there’s no reason to hate someone just because it didn’t work out. But our exes aren’t snotty to us and sneaking around behind our disapproving lover’s backs.

LW@50 ~ it’s precisely this woman’s issues that make this a different situation from arbitrarily “forbidding” your boyfriend to have a friendship with a normal person. Like you, when I was 26, I would have given my SO more latitude, but now, I’ve been there, done that a half dozen times, and my opinion is that gritting your teeth and tolerating a situation that you REALLY don’t like NEVER works out.

Shrewd words and a good question from Lava @52.

GOB, it's not the sign of a strong relationship that your lover makes you feel 'appreciated'. Sure, in the first 9-12 months of a relationship, a good partner, through very many little acts, will make you feel loved and respected. But, often, the whole bearing of a partner's attitude will communicate such esteem that specific acts aren't necessary. (And, on some occasions, a manipulative person will go out his way to make a lover feel cared for). Likewise, it's not that significant that your partner's ex isn't nice to you. As you describe her, this is a dangerously awol, self-destructive woman. If you want to help your partner push her firmly into the past, and to limit the scope of his interaction with her, you'll have to have compassion for this woman. Firm compassion. The remarks about your bf making you feel appreciated and his ex casting shade are the kind of thing someone would say to garner sympathy from 22-25 year-olds. Not say to Dan or a group of people mostly a generation older than you.

The impression you give with these remarks is that your bf's sweetness and caring personality are good for your insecurities, and this other woman's passive aggression and threats of overt aggression bad.

You will have to go far, far beyond that if you want to normalize the place of this ex in your life with your partner. It sounds as if this woman needs help--an anger management program and an AA-type program, at the very least. In mitigating and smoothing over her behavior, your bf is preventing her from getting that help. (Of course, she's kicking and screaming herself, saying she doesn't need it). You're getting nowhere thinking of this in terms of its being about forbidding your bf contact with an ex. How does that help anyone? Think about the situation, and encourage your partner to think about it, in terms of what is best for her. As Last Margarita says, change the script of the mutual dependence, or relationship, of the three of you. It won't be easy. It will require you to model safe, caring, adult behavior endlessly. You will not, morally, be the junior partner in your relationship--the one cared for, the one made love to. And, however many columns of Dan's you've read, it will need a sea-change in your attitudes.

Also... through my eyes, this looks an awful lot like a 10 year older man taking advantage of a much younger woman’s fear of standing up for the kind of relationship she wants and deserves. There’s a big difference between 36 and 26.

Right on, Harriet

Hi GOB666! Please give Lava @42, 52 some thought. To me, your BF sounds less like a doormat and more like a guy with some serious substance abuse/addiction issues.

Maybe he sees the vodka-bottle-assault and the mom’s trip to the ER as normal-ish things that happen when one is drinking? When you say he’s fun to hang out with, are you partying pretty hard? Or, does he view the ex as someone who’s in her cups lately due to some negative life events, and needing support from old friends?

I’m concerned that he’s normalizing this level of bad drunken behaviour.

Also, I’m not trying to be condescending, but I drank a lot more at 26 than I do at 36. (And used a lot more drugs). Some of this might have seemed like party drama at 26, but by 36 this should be winding down if it’s going to.

Sporty @46: I'm sorry, where have I even discussed "why victims don't go to the police, why they don't leave, etc"? That hasn't come up in our conversation. I am discussing the question: What should GOB do? You haven't addressed that question. All you've done is create reverse-sexist straw men that only exist in your own mind.

Donny @49: "I bet he's going to continue his infatuation with the "bad girl" he can't bear to part with." I agree. It's been 10 years; I'm wondering how many women in that period have said "it's her or me" and he's picked her?

Thanks for checking in, GOB -- glad you're aware that the course of action you're considering isn't ethical. Hope you can patiently get him to see his ex is bad news. I wish you luck. But yes -- either he has boundary/self-esteem issues or he has a blind spot where it comes to this one woman. More talking, honest talking, is in order.

Lava @52, agree, good point. Keeping the "wrong" friends may not be grounds to question a relationship, but not speaking up for one's partner is.

@58 - so you disagree with my point that you can't always understand how a long term relationship of any kind works for someone else, but that you should acknowledge that it DOES work, and realize that it has value for the people involved. Instead, you say "It would be different if this was just a friend in the true sense of the word." - meaning that you have both the ability and the right to judge whether or not other people's relationships are legitimate, in this case based on a posting on the web rather than any actual knowledge.

That's a very common belief - but it's awfully like bible thumpers' knee-jerk bigotry, and disappointing to see in a supposedly thoughtful and progressive venue like this.

Update: so I discussed this with my boyfriend this morning. No ultimatums and I made it clear that I was there to listen to his side and empathize with how he felt first instead of jumping to accusations or judgements. I also mentioned that I wrote to Dan for advice which he wasn’t thrilled about but I think he understands why I did it.

In a nutshell, he described a few times where his ex was there for him/took care of him in their friendship as the reason for his continued friendship with her. My response was in two parts- firstly “I’m here to take care of you and be there for you! And I won’t clock you in the head with a vodka bottle in the process!”, secondly it’s been my experience that people with an abusive/manipulative personality tend to throw just enough kindness at their victim to make the victim feel like he/she needs the abuser, which I pointed out to him as possibly being the case in this scenerio.

I also pointed out to him that every time his ex does something fucked up he has a strong tendency to coddle her, which really doesn’t give her any motivation to stop because I’m fairly certain that attention from him is what she’s feeding off. For instance, he immediately blamed me for pushing their friendship underground, despite the fact that it was this girl being bitchy to me (for the record, I truly tried to be friendly to her) that ultimately caused him to hide the friendship from me. Also, he claims she needs him because “she’s going through a rough time” on account of just getting out of jail for beating up her last boyfriend- no dude. Everyone who has to deal with her is probably going through a rough time, she’s just experiencing consequences for her actions FOR ONCE.

Overall though, I don’t think we reach any conclusion, mostly because he was getting too upset over it. I feel at this point that if I were to tell him point blank to ditch the ex he’d probably break up with me.

No, we can't tell our partners who they can be friends with, but we can absolutely judge them by the company they keep. Assuming that you aren't interested in finding yourself on an episode of Jerry Springer, it might be time to rethink this relationship- because I'm sorry, but anyone who doesn't view going to jail for beating up your partner as a friendship deal breaker is a terrible judge of character. Would you want to marry and have kids with someone who considers that acceptable behavior?

@65 GOB666
Thank you very much for checking in again, @65 makes me feel much better (though not about your BF).

"...he immediately blamed me for pushing their friendship underground..."

I hope you know that that is in not true. You didn't say anything about not wanting to hear if he made the decision you said you opposed but was up to him.

"...he was getting too upset over it. I feel at this point that if I were to tell him point blank to ditch the ex he’d probably break up with me."

Honestly that would be in your best interest. F. this guy. Know you deserve, and will end up with, better.

She could make that ultimatum, but her boyfriend won't choose her. He's more invested in the violent ex than he is in the new fling, or likely ever will be.

GOB @65, Thanks for the update. I think you've given us all the additional information needed to be sure about your situation and 99.999% sure what you should do: DTMFA.

Even if you think his good features outweigh his bad ones, and you'd be wrong to think that, you might as well dump him now because sooner or later he will have to choose between the abusive (fellow?) alcoholic ex and you. And he won't choose you. No chance. Zero.

If you don't make him choose, the crazy woman will. The result will be the same. You will be single.

Honestly, GOB@65, Karpman's drama triangle. There's lots of good articles about it online, and I would sincerely urge you to look them up.

I commend you for trying to start a dialogue (and hey, it worked!), but then as soon as he started talking, you just used it as ammunition for your own argument. That's not listening (and may I point out, "You don't need your friend, you have me now!" is not a good look). And when this so-called "dialogue" failed, you turned around and put all the blame on him ("I don’t think we reach any conclusion, mostly because he was getting too upset over it").

Based on this update, I retract my earlier advice. To be blunt, I don't think any of you have the emotional maturity to do anything other than cycle through victim, persecutor, rescuer, ad nauseum. I'm sorry to give you a hard time, as you're clearly suffering and being an adult in these highly-charged situations is HARD. I get it - I'm 10 years older than you, and I still slip up sometimes, and see much older people fall in this pattern all the time. Easy to see when other people are doing it, not so easy to fix when it comes to our own relationships.

So on balance, I concur with the other commenters - DTMFA, except I don't think he's the MF in this situation, I think you all had your parts to play. You're young, and will no doubt find someone else to share your life and goals with. And maybe, when this is all over and the emotional dust has settled, you can reflect on and learn from this. Good luck!

Not sure how you got to that conclusion, Lost Margarita, given the ex sounds like a nut case. And why shouldn’t GOB expect her bf to one, defend her and two piss off his unhinged old gf because she did nearly attack the LW.
This man is not finished with his ex, and perhaps GOB, you could suggest time apart from this man, so he can decide how he wants to live his life. If he Needs violent drunk drama queen in his life, then it’s best you know that sooner than later, right? You are young and don’t need this sort of crazy in your life. Waste of your time.
There are other men out there, not still caught by old loves and old dramas, you could just walk, go find one and avoid any more of this sorry tale.

@65 He's going to choose her no matter what because they're trapped in an abuse cycle that you can't break from the outside. You can't save him from her just like he can't save her from herself. There are plenty of sweet, understanding guys out there that don't come with all this baggage.

@72 BabyRae
"He's going to choose her no matter what"

I hope you're right BabyRae, because GOB deserves/needs to be free of him. Until @65 I couldn't help worrying that he'd choose GOB.

I dunno, LavaGirl@71, maybe because I'm acutely aware that we only have GOB's side of the story here, and I don't think any of us can be considered reliable narrators when we're in the throes of relationship drama. So yeah, I'm sceptical.

And, frankly, a little disgusted at the objectifying, dehumanising language thrown at the alcoholic ex by yourself and the other commenters: "nutcase", "unhinged", "violent drunk drama queen", "crazy woman", etc. Have you ever had people with substance abuse or mental health issues in your life, perhaps in your own family (I have)? Do you believe they should just be kicked to the curb until they "sort themselves out", because who wants that kind of drama in their life? Don't get me wrong, it's hard to be put through the wringer time and time again, and I certainly wouldn't blame GOB, or anyone else, for wanting to be as far away from it as possible. But I also don't blame GOB's boyfriend for wanting to stay, and trying (perhaps misguidedly, certainly unsuccessfully) to compartmentalise his relationships and keep the peace. Addicts and mentally ill people are still people, they usually have at least ~some~ redeeming features when they're not drinking/using/having an episode, and they need help. I'm not convinced Mr GOB is going about it the right way, but this friendship is clearly meaningful to him.

And to be clear, I'm not denying the possibility that, having been in an abusive and/or volatile and/or mutually-toxic romantic relationship with this woman in the past, he is still experiencing some form of Stockholm syndrome/co-dependent attachment 10 years down the line. It's just that... I'm not convinced it's the only explanation. Perhaps, now that Mr GOB knows we're talking about him, he'll drop in with his version of events.

Hey GOB, I'm glad you checked in. I'm pretty solidly on team DTMFA - not because your boyfriend is a bad dude, but because you can't save him. He's still caught in the cycle of abuse with his violent addict ex. He's the only one who can make the decision to get away from her, and he's shown pretty definitely that he's not ready to do that. You've been with him less than a year - now is the prime time to get out and save yourself.

@56 "Not the same" and "totally OK" are not connected ideas here. It doesn't have to be the same to be problematic.

@sporty: Abuse is bad regardless of gender. Can we go back to actually talking about the lw now?

GOB @65: Thanks for the update. You sound wise beyond your years. I'm sorry, but not surprised, he was defensive. I hope after the initial confrontation, he thinks about what you've said. I too am shaking my head at what can motivate someone to support a violent person like that. She's not going through a rough time, she's causing a rough time for others! I think you have your answer -- if he can't see that support and sympathy are not the correct approach for a violent criminal, it may be time to let him go. After 10 years he seems unlikely to have a you-spurred epiphany. Urge therapy if he's open to it, otherwise I would say walk, as you'll always be saddled with this toxic person in your life.

Sporty @76, can you point to one person, other than Mr GOB, who's said it was "totally OK" or even a little bit OK for the ex to have hit Mr GOB with a vodka bottle?

@80 Are "wild" and "interesting" euphemisms for "violent" and "abusive"?

If so, that's certainly your choice to, ahem, enrich your life with such people, but you shouldn't be surprised if a partner prefers to steer clear of that kind of toxicity.

@65. GOB. So if you said to your partner, 'what can you best do to help your ex?' (maybe you did), would his response be 'she doesn't need any help!' e.g. 'she's just going through a rough time'? There's not much you can do with that. If you're staying in the relationship, you can only repeat his idea back to him--that he thinks she doesn't need any help--and let your thought sit with him for a while.

Hi GOB666! I think you should definitely put off thinking about marriage until you two work this out. Maybe in a few years you'll see a more positive side to his ex; maybe he'll see that she's not a positive contribution to his life; or maybe the two of you will break up.

Can you see why he wouldn't be convinced to end a long friendship by you saying "I’m here to take care of you and be there for you"?

He has known her for many years and apparently learned that she was there for him during difficult times. He has been with you for less than a year, so how does he know how you will behave when he really needs someone to support him non-judgmentally?

If you want to get married and start a family in the near future, end this relationship so you can find someone else. But if you can give this a few years before making any permanent decisions (like having children), you'll have a lot more information to go on.

@79 hariett @56 just said so explicitly

cocky@80 ~ "...I would react very badly to a partner trying to control these relationships..."

I don't think saying, "I have no room in my life for people like this, if you can't pull back from her I can't be with you," is trying to "control" his relationship. She's just stating her own limits. He is free to make whatever decision he wants to make. And you, cocky, are free to "react very badly" to similar situations, in which case I would advise your partner to exercise THEIR right to decide if staying in a relationship with someone who "reacts very badly" to someone who doesn't want to be surrounded by assholes is in their best interest.

Also... Geez, there's a lot of Spammers on this thread. C'mon webmaster!

@85. Sportlandia. I didn't say it was 'OK' for the ex to take a swing at the lw's bf with a bottle. I said it was 'the stupid, defiant act of someone with frustrations'. My point was that when a woman does that to a guy, the likely sequel is her being disarmed, possibly some sort of scuffle, her rage dissipating. When it's a man with the bottle, a possible consequence is her being incapacitated and his proceeding to a full-on assault of her.

If the ex is in as bad a way as the LW suggests, she's the one who needs help here; and I'm not sure the ex-bf and his current partner will be the ones to provide it to her.

Harriet @89, thanks for clarifying. Sporty, if there is a gender-based difference here, it's one of degree, not of rightness or wrongness of the behaviour itself. Many, many more women are killed by domestic partners than are men, so a person would be quite right in finding a violent male ex scarier than a violent female one. It seems, though, that this particular ex is an extreme example -- convicted of assaulting a partner! That justifies taking the threat she poses just as seriously as one would take a violent man. And no, Harriet, Mr GOB is NOT the one who can or should provide "help" to this very disturbed individual. His continued sympathy is enabling her.

@90. Bi. Sure--I said that @59: ' in mitigating and smoothing over her behavior, your bf is preventing her from getting that help' she needs.

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