Savage Love

Crazy Switch Asians

Comments

1

Why does HMM feel the need to specify he's white and she's his "hot Asian babe"? Has nothing to do with his question. Which, speaking as an Asian woman, makes me think he's at least a teensy bit fetishizing/racist.

4

1, yeah, it’s a weird kind of not racist racism (or however you would explain the clear racism of someone who thinks they’re not a racist because of their asian wife/husband/friends). I catch it often from my clients that have to start with, “this beautiful asian/black/etc. person at work...” and then proceed to relate a story that has no race component whatsoever. I never end up liking those clients.

6

There’s a lot of Asian men in Australia, most of them have a very circumspect vibe. Not sure I’ve been sexually attracted to any one Asian man specifically. I’ll check next time I’m down in Brisbane.
I can imagine if one hot Asian man turned LW1, with his slender body, and cultured manners, then she’d start noticing Asian men’s sex appeal more often. You’re good to go, LW1.

7

LavaGirl, by "Asian" we Americans mean East Asians, not South Asians/Southeast Asians.

8

I don’t read LW1 is congratulating herself, Joel. She’s confused, and thinks she’s been rewired, which she hasn’t. Her taste in which men are desirable to her, has expanded.

9

@7, UsaUsa6969, there are many many Chinese Australians.

10

Like bluebutterflygirl, I don't know why LW2 needs to bring up race. Does he think Asian women are more or less predisposed to giving head? Anyway, the letter in general lacks clarity, which Dan seems to address: has the LW already discussed this with his wife? If so, just say that: "I talked to her about it and she wasn't down."

As for LW1, she was moving through the world thinking she had a type, she moved beyond that type (or those types--white and Latino) and discovered that maybe she was wrong. No big deal. Of course, I say that as a white guy so I don't know what it's like to have one's race or ethnicity be a draw for someone else as far as I know (i.e., when I've dated women who were not white, they never commented on my race or ethnicity as a source of attraction).

11

Is enjoying someone's sexy, exotic accent really that hurtful? I sometimes beg my boyfriend for a little Spanish lesson just to hear him roll his rrr's, and his tongue, and he cheerfully obliges me. Sometimes foreign languages are just SEXY, especially since I can only speak English and I come from SO many different cultures that my family has never really embraced one or any. So for me, it's just a wonderful little preview of what his tongue can do.

12

It seems accurate to say that after fucking a several score of white and (one might imagine light-skinned) Latino men over the past 18 years, which has cut a deep groove, she has tried something new and it's like experiencing sex in a way that makes sex feel fresh and exciting, and having discovered something that makes sex feel new, she is hitting hard on that new interest.

I don't see anything wrong with that per se, but is AMWF going about finding sex partners in a way that fetishizes Asian men? The way she describes her Tinder feed as a list of Asian men, does suggest that she is objectifying her potential sex partners along that dimension. I think she should own up to that, make sure she is treating her sex partners as human beings when they meet in-person, and keep her present sexual preferences to herself.

13

pollyc @11: I'm stuck with the priceless image of Jamie Lee Curtis being accidentally seduced by John Cleese in "A Fish Called Wanda".

14

AMWF's new preference is only six months old. It makes perfect sense that meeting one perfect 10 would make people who bear a resemblance to that person more attractive. I've noticed this myself -- if I'm deep in NRE for, say, someone with light brown hair, suddenly I find my head turning exclusively toward people with light brown hair. So yes, it's normal, but I expect it will wear off at some point and she'll return to being able to find men of a variety of races attractive.

I'd point out to Dan's expert that AMWF never said she had never been attracted to an Asian man until Mr September: "I've always been into men of all races—but in practice, most of my exes are Latino and white." That sounds to me like she had no racial preference and dated the men who were most commonly available and interested. Good point though that she should keep this under her hat -- no one is going to be looking at her Tinder match history.

HMM is exactly the dude Joel Kim warned about. What does Mrs HMM's race have to do with anything? Nothing that I can see. The only purpose of including his fetishisation of his own wife seems to have been to show us all he's an asshole. As to his questions, if Mrs HMM has granted permission but "is afraid he'll like it," I'm afraid his fantasy of getting head from a dude then gleefully telling his wife about it before fucking her is dead in the water. He'll have to settle for getting head from guys on the DL and NOT telling his wife about it, because that will upset her. Sorry, dude -- you can't convince her, even if she is a subservient Asian fantasy who also happens to be a real person with her own feelings.

Not sure why Dan said, "For marketing purposes, you're going to want to go with straight." Is it so that the men who'll be blowing him won't expect more out of the relationship, or simply so they won't expect reciprocation? (What if HMM does want to proceed toward reciprocation?) This sounds like the mentality I've been made aware of through this column of some women preferring to fuck married cheating men over married poly ones, which I find bizarre.

15

Hunter @2: No, HMM's question has nothing to do with race.

Surf @10: Yeah, that might be the only possible reason HMM brought up race -- perhaps Mrs HMM claimed she doesn't like to give head for cultural reasons. If so, that's a cop out on her part. If she doesn't like it, she doesn't like it. Good on her for saying he can get that need met elsewhere, although that doesn't obligate her to listen to his stories. DADT seems the best solution here.

16

@14 cont, after more coffee I've answered my own question: the much-lamented (by Venn in particular) phenomenon of gay men seeking "straight" cocks to suck.

17

@14/BiDanFan: "For marketing purposes..." Bizzarre or not, you got the drift. What Dan is suggesting that potential head-givers are more likely to blow a married "straight" guy, particularly one who has to get head from a gay man on the DL, than a married bisexual guy getting head with his wife's blessing.

18

@1. bluebutterflygirl. Completely correct and it was also my first thought.

/break/
Ha ha ha ha! 'Dudes blowing straight married men in front of their wives'! I can indulge myself in a fantasy and it can be completely apropos!

(The real answer is that if your wife says no to your getting gay head, she says no).

19

@17. Sublime. But I think Dan did nod to the kinksters a bit more like me who would find it much hotter a) if the wife were present; b) to fantasise about a wife who knew about it.

I also find the straight-chasers lamentable (the 'chaser' being a gulp of mouthwash mixed with amnesia). If you had my lifestyle in my 20s, blowing a few straights was an occupational i.e. recreational hazard. But one would never set out to do so.

20

@4 Agreed. Though on the other side of the coin, I'm also annoyed when someone is, say, trying to describe who Linda was at the party and they talk about what she was wearing and what she was drinking and where she was standing and then you figure out it was the only black girl in the room. I get you're trying not to sum someone up by their race but let's get this identification done. If she was the only girl with short hair in the room, you'd say that. If it was the guy with one leg, you'd say that. It's okay.

21

@1 and @18. I wonder if there was more to the letter and that was somehow relevant. Dan edits them down for columns and it seems totally out of place. I can't fully come up with how that detail would be relevant (maybe somehow plays into why she doesn't like giving blowjobs? or why she doesn't want him to experiment with bi?) but we should probably not call him racist based on an edited letter.

22

@11 I think there are differences between a deep relationship and someone on tinder. If you're asking your tinder date to re-enact your Jackie Chan fantasy, you're fetishizing them. If you're asking your fiancé who you know deeply and listen to and respect to enact a fantasy, you're probably okay. And if you're looking to enact a fantasy without a relationship, you should just post something on a kink board and let someone who is comfortable with it respond. It's all about how well you know a person and how much you spring this on them.

24

Regarding AM/WF, your current focus on Asian men does raise a red flag, but admittedly it's pretty generic given some other factors.
1) You mentioned you mention this all started in September last year, meaning this period of dating Asian men has lasted for a whopping 6 months. That's a reasonably short amount of time. If we were talking years, that would be a different story
2) Our brain is wired to look for patterns. You say the Asian man you dated in September 'rewired" you which I take to mean the relationship was intense and enjoyable. Given that he apparently was the first (or one of the few) Asian men you've dated, it's not unreasonable that you'd wonder consciously or subconsciously that him being Asian played a role in that intensity. It could be something about differences in Asian culture that you can't pinpoint but you really like, or it could be you had an intense and enjoyable relationship with it being a TOTAL COINCIDENCE that he was Asian.
Again, its a red flag, but at six months it's a minor one.

25

Half-asian, Half-caucasian here. My two cents: Buff Asian guys are way cuter than buff white guys. Skinny white dudes, though, are way hotter than skinny Asian dudes.

26

"I'm a guy. I've been with my wife since 2006. She's my sexy Asian babe. (Yeah, I'm that white guy who married an Asian woman—I'm a stereotype, but she isn't.) "

There is no reason to include his wife's race in this letter. He doesn't suggest that her distaste for blowjobs has anything to do with her being Asian. Rather, he's clearly bragging ("sexy Asian babe"), even as he preemptively acknowledges that he's a stereotype ["(Yeah, I'm that white guy who married an Asian woman—I'm a stereotype, but she isn't.)"], which suggests to me that he fetishizes Asian women and knows it and is trying to own it. But the fact that he feels compelled to include that in his letter also suggests to me that he finds his wife's Asian-ness to be one of her most salient characteristics, and therefore worthy of mention.

I don't think Dan would edit important information out of a letter and, while in edit mode, leave extraneous stuff like this in. I know that sometimes he changes a few identifying details, but if this info was added for that purpose, it seems not only egregious, but bound to cause comment, so I doubt that was what happened. I think it's far more likely that this lw prioritizes his wife's Asian-ness, even as he tries to tell us she's not that stereotypical Asian woman.

And he might think there's some relevance to the information: a stereotypical Asian woman is submissive and deferential, which would suggest that even if she didn't like them, she'd give her husband a blow job if he wanted one. So maybe in the lw's mind, his wife's being Asian is a relevant fact, kind of undermined by her not being a stereotype. All of which again, shows us what he finds important about defining his wife, and thus, his fetish.

I've noticed and commented before on the ways that letter writers, and even more so, podcast callers, identify themselves with extraneous information. ("I'm a straight, cis man living on the East Coast . . ."; "I'm a 26-year-old queer woman in the Pacific Northwest . . ."; "I'm a 30-year- old gay man living in a Gay Mecca . . ."; etc.) I generally think that most of that identity stuff is just a mindless way to launch the letter/question a bit more gently, rather than in a way that may seem more awkward, as in saying something like, "Hi, my boyfriend won't wash himself and expects rim jobs." It's an ease-in. Sometimes the language is kind of clinical (note how many people refer to themselves as "male" or "female," instead of saying "man" or "woman." It's the same way my students write essays, trying to sound more formal than usual and somehow ending up sounding as if they were writing up a police report). But several times on the podcast, I've heard people throw the "white" descriptor in, as in: "I'm a 32-year-old, single, white male living in the Midwest"--and that always gives me pause. I realize it's sort of a boilerplate autofill-type of thing, but it creeps me out.

27

@1 it's just scene setting. But I know this is the Stranger comments, so nothing anyone does is not a persecutable offence.

I find it really strange when people fret about their race/size/looks etc. being unlovable or unattractive. Yes I know the most attractive people get the lions share of wealth and privilege in our society but literally everyone alive on earth is descended form a long ass line of people who GOT LAID. Fat, ugly, unpopular, slightly unfashionable people have great sex all the time!
Got an odd face? Guess what, so did eighty generations of your ancestors who all got some. Men from Asia are the most evolutionary dominant subtype of homo-sapiens on the planet, the idea that they are not attractive or their dicks are too small or whatever is so very insane.

28

Larry @21: I don't think HMM is a racist, just a bit of a jerk.

Marilyn @23: Uh, thanks for sharing?

Alcohol @25: Uh, thanks for sharing?

DrJones @27: If it were "just scene setting," as NoCute discusses, he'd have said "I'm a white guy, and my wife is Asian." He wouldn't have made such a big song and dance about it. He is, as NoCute says, bragging, implying that his wife's race objectively adds to her hotness. Ew.

29

Worrying about whether someone is A Racist is different than pointing out they did something racist. HMM explicitly fetishised his "hot asian babe" when it wasn't relevant to his story at all. Of course, HMM is also a jerk for getting a clear "no" and hearing "figure out how to change my mind."

31

I read LW2’s “I'm that white guy who married an Asian woman—I'm a stereotype, but she isn't” as a somewhat bitter reaction to the old stereotype of a white dude preferring a supposedly sexy yet more traditional submissive/loyal, wife. (The “sexy,” “seductress” nature of Asian women was one cultivated in North American movies and TV shows for many years.)

The second part of his rant, “she isn’t,” comes across as, “why do you blame me while no one blames her for having a preference for white guys?”

32

As for Asian dicks’ size- I’m no expert, but if my days in Japan and the daily visits to the sento, the public bath, are any indication then there may be some truth to the stereotype.
Admittedly I’ve never met an erected one in person, yet a European woman who worked there in the sex industry said that on average the smaller size is indeed true.

Few years ago The NYT book review covered a book written by a Pilipino-American guy who lamented about his smaller penis compared with other dudes he sees in the US. The reviewer praised him for bringing up “the white elephant in the room”- not intended- issue, stating this is real and needs to be acknowledged.

That LW1 didn’t find American-Asian men’s penises to be any smaller than the average may also be attributed to the different diet here in the US. The shift to western diet in Japan had already started to make people taller when I was there many years ago, and maybe other body parts keep up with the rest, even though penis size doesn’t always correlate to body size.

33

@10 I'm unaware of a sexual stereotype regarding asians and blowjobs - but it's certainly true for jewish women. I remember a particular hookup that involved some above-and-beyond level oral from me, and when I suggest she return the favor, she laughed and said "but I'm jewish!". That was fun (FWIW, I'm sure there are plenty of jewish women who enjoy oral as much as the next shiksa). I think it's worth remember that oral was fairly scandalous to Americans until, what, the 80s? We're definitely living in an era of increased BJ's (I suspect the AIDS epidemic may have influenced this).

I find LW1 to likely be a tokenizer. She's not exactly racist but she's the type that likely assumes any black person comes from the hood and can rap or play basketball (if you've seen Sorry To Bother You - that particular seen was so right on it nearly knocked me out of my seat) and congratulates people on being well spoken. She means well, but is obnoxious.

LW2 probably feels somewhat guilty - like he thinks he might be an appropriator - but ultimately NBD. Regarding his question, here's how I'd do it: Next sex session, ask for a BJ. Hopefully, when you whine a little (not too much, please) she'll repeat "go out and get it somewhere else". Then ask "are you actually serious? I really want a BJ but I wish it could be with you". Go from there, negotiate your BJ pass, and hopefully all is well. Agree with Dan, don't mention the guy thing. Perhaps on a different date you can exchange fantasies with your partner, and perhaps introduce some bi-male action and see if that disgusts her or not, then consider outing yourself as Gay For Blowjobs.

35

NoCute @26, I wonder if LW2 may be a case where editing made a difference. When I read "I'm a stereotype, but she isn't," I was expecting him to say something about how she's not submissive and thus doesn't fall into the stereotype that is often part of the WMAF relationship. When he then started talking about his wife not giving him blow jobs, I was wondering if something was missing about her finding giving blow jobs too submissive. Maybe no, but it seems possible he originally made a connection. As it stands, the transition seems really odd.

36

Dan,

"That does make you bi, HMM, but for marketing purposes? Yeah, you're going to want to go with straight."

Thanks. I LOL'd

38

i'm going to throw this out and am bracing myself for a potential blasting...

i personally have never been attracted to a single black or asian man. there are only a few, less than a handful probably black men I have found attractive, which is usually mixed race, and no asian man to date.

i have a shit ton of black friends, hispanic friends--way more than white friends. i don't know many asians for no particular reason--we don't really run in the same crowds I guess. i don't all white people this, all black people that, most hispanic come ,most asians go etc.

its not a conscious decision. my attraction is my attraction. i'm quite fine with it and don't feel i'm missing out anywhere. i'm hard pressed to call that racist. especially given the circles i run in.

39

Sorry, Dan and everybody---I guess I really don't have much to add this week. I will read the comments and cheer on this week's Lucky @69 and Lucky Hunsky winners.

40

As Daddy@37 pointed out LW2, you knew this about your wife from the start. Now two kids on, you have such a strong wish to be given blow jobs by men. And what, this non stereotypical Asian wife of yours, has said no again. Geez.

41

CMD @31: Welcome back!
I didn't read the "she isn't" the way you did; I read it as him saying his wife is thoroughly Westernised, not submissive, etc, which are the stereotypes of Asian women. I am not aware of a stereotype that Asian women are hot for white men. I think he meant the post to be self-deprecating, but it only made him look like a jerk to me.

CMD @32: My experience lines up with the stereotypes about both black and Asian men. Of course there is variance within all races. AMWF has been into Asian men for six months, so I'm not sure how large her sample size can be. I will debunk the stereotype that bigger dick means better lover. Even below-average is perfectly capable of getting the job done, particularly as below-average guys are more likely to understand the importance of other sexual activities.

Dadddy @37: That's how I read it too -- so strong is his fetish for "sexy Asian babes" that he was willing to accept no head as the price of admission. Worked out pretty well for Mrs HMM.

42

I think the amount of analysis everyone has spent on LW1's new found interest is instructive in itself. As a 50-something father of three I keep hoping that we'll move beyond race-based conversations and the sheer number of intermarriages is a hopeful sign.
A guy who happened to be Asian rocked her world, now she wants another. What if he had been a professional dancer or tall or had large ears? Would you be analyzing her motives?

43

Tim @42: "What if he had been a professional dancer or tall or had large ears? Would you be analyzing her motives?" If she had written in to ask, yes.

44

@42: Most of the comments have focused on the second letter. And the lw herself wrote BECAUSE she's wondering about her newfound seemingly-exclusive attraction to men of a particular race.

45

Ms Cute - Also, people are not speaking TO Mr Savage personally, so that there's no opportunity to lead in with, "Hi, Dr Laura; thank you for taking my call," before launching into a sentence that lamentably often began with, "Me and my husband..."

46

Ms Fan@16 - I am tempted to give you a GGY (for "Good girl, yourself!" as Mr Clancy congratulates Miss O'Hare in Widow's Peak), but I have been put into a nasty mood this morning not by a root canal, which wasn't even particularly unpleasant, but by seeing how so many straight people (especially men - surprise not). are falling all over themselves to absolve Ms Gabbard.

I shall not be harsh with LW2, as he serves a useful purpose as an example of someone with whom nobody reasonable would expect me to form any sort of community. I'll go one beyond Mr Savage, advise him specifically to seek Chasers, and hope that anyone who enjoys servicing him decides to present exclusively as as a Chaser in future.

47

@41 Asians LOVE white men. Traditional Asians are extraordinarily racist (no violence, but definitively the most anti black attitude in the world, more so than even openly racist white southern Americans) and there is a strong strong strong taboo against Asian Americans dating blacks and Latinos. Dating a white man is perceived as dating up, the same way an "average guy" dating a model is punching above their weight.

49

Ugh, folks, there are no typical ASIAN man, some are big, some are small, some short, some tall, some are sweet and respectful, some are assholes - JUST.LIKE.MEN.OF.ALL.RACES!! I've had a couple of Asian American boyfriends with bigger dicks than a couple of white boyfriends, but it would be as ridiculous for me to assume that ALL Asians have bigger dicks than Caucasians, as someone else assuming that all Asians have smaller dicks! Quit it with the weird-ass generalizations, please. I's gross.

LW, I had a really great boyfriend when I was a freshman in college, so for years afterwards, I was drawn to men with similar looks and personality. Although I didn't start dating only guys with those characteristics (so many yummy college men, so little time!), I became good friends with many of them, because compatibility. It's understandable that if you had a really satisfying experience with that first Asian guy, you'd be attracted to people that are like him for a while. Since you don't fetishize them during the hook up, or expect them to act 'Asians' (whatever the fuck that means to stereotyping idiots), you should feel free to date whomever you're attracted to (as long as they also treat you respectfully as an individual, and not as a stereotype of your race or appearance). Don't worry so much about them maybe looking through your dating history, and thinking you are fetishizing them. You don't want to date men who have such low self esteem that they pre-emptively make that kind of assumptions about you anyway. The decent men who are comfortable with who they are would see from how you act towards them that you're not dating them just because of their race.

Re:
"I've learned that guys who have a preference for Asian men sometimes bring a certain kind of 'entitlement' to our interactions, i.e., 'You should feel lucky I'm paying you this kind of attention.' And that's gross! It doesn't sound like she's doing that, but something about this letter makes me feel like she wants to be congratulated for being woke enough to consider Asian guys"

I think Mr Kim Booster might be seeing things in LW's letter that isn't there because of his past bad experiences. I see no self-congratuation or superiority in LW's letter. She's worrying about how her recent dating habits might be judged by other people. This does happen. Looks like Mr Kim Booster is judging her a little, and I've heard plenty of snide remarks made about white women who date blacks/brown/hispanics/Asians men - from both other white men and women, and men and women (mostly women) of the minority involved.

2019, and we still have so much prejudice against inter-racial dating in our country. It's disheartening.

50

@47 Steve King, is that you?

51

*congratulation
Apparently I can't spell when stomach is full!

52

BiDanFan @41 - I wouldn't say there's a stereotype of "Asian women LOVE white men" (though I have heard that one too, mostly from white men), but "Asian woman with a white guy" is definitely something of a cliche. As Sportlandia said, for many Asians, an Asian woman dating a white guy is acceptable, but that's a fairly recentn thing. Until maybe 15 years ago, in Korea at least, dating a white guy was not really something to brag about, because it meant only a dumb foreigner who didn't know any better wanted you. At the time, the overwhelming majority of white guys in Korea were US military stationed there, and it was not uncommon for women to try to hook up with them to get a ticket to America. These women were generally viewed as wanting to go to the US for a fresh start because they were damaged goods in some way, and having low standards because they went with whoever would have them. It didn't help that deliberately pursuing a military career is not exactly prestigious in Asian culture unless you're a high-ranking officer or come from a famous military family; you're basically saying you're too useless for anything except cannon fodder.

It's different in the US, especially now that Asian-Americans born and raised in the US are becoming more common and visible. I can't say for certain why so many Asian women end up with white guys, but speaking for myself (as an Asian woman married to a white guy), I just find that American guys of any nationality are easier to connect with. Most Asian people I knew in high school and college were heavily influenced by their parents' cultural background, and whether consciously or not, subscribed to girls < boys. Even my mother, who moved to the US as a teenager and is pretty American in a lot of ways, treated me and my brother differently (for example, when he wanted to make his own costume for an anime convention, she went shopping with him and did most of the actual work. When I did, she showed me how to use the sewing machine and told me to have at it). And this is probably because Asian people in my age group (mid-late 30s) are mostly 1.5 gen immigrants - their parents moved to the US as adults, kids were usually born shortly before or after the move. For me, having been born in the US, I am far more familiar and comfortable with American culture and customs, and English is my first language, so it's often easier to communicate with and understand Americans (that includes Asian-Americans). Consequently I've mostly dated non-Asian guys because they tend to treat me the way I want to be treated - the only exception was born and raised in the US like I was. I could never live in Korea again, and if I did, I would pretty much be seen as a foreigner because everything about me except my genes scream American. I just don't fit in with them, and they are often uncomfortable with me because they expect me to be Korean and I don't act like one. Even Korean immigrants living in the US are surprised to find I can speak Korean pretty well, because they can tell just by the way I dress that I'm more American than Korean.

I suspect that having more and more visible Asian-Americans rather than Asians is why Asians are finally breaking out of their stereotypes. Asians are no longer esoteric foreigners who keep to themselves; some of them are as American as a Big Gulp-sized slushie. When you have two cultures that are vastly different, one will always seem very peculiar and inferior to the other, and it goes both ways - Koreans have plenty of negative stereotypes about America too, for example. But Asian-Americans bridge that cultural gap, thus making Asians more accessible, comprehensible, and "our kind of people" to Westerners, and vice versa. It's kind of like being vouched for by a friend - "well, A is clearly pals with B, and we like A, so B must be okay too." Non-Asians see Asian-Americans who don't fit the stereotype and think "oh I guess they're not all like that," and Asians see Asian-Americans succeeding in Western society and think "hey, they like us too! We CAN be friends!" And thus stereotypes on both sides get eroded a little bit at a time.

Sportlandia @41 - though you are not incorrect, I would disagree with some of your post. Yes, traditional Asians are extremely, embarrassingly racist towards black, Latino, and other people with darker skin tones. There are so many reasons for that, which I won't get into right now. But dating a white guy is not necessarily perceived as dating up, more of a "well if you won't date a proper Asian, I guess a white guy is better than the alternatives." Upon finding about my white then-boyfriend now-husband, for example, my father's reaction was to disown me and lament that no Korean guy would ever want me because I had been tainted by a white guy. Granted, my father is also an extreme example that even most Korean people find peculiar, but it's generally not really a considered a prize catch for an Asian woman to land an average white guy either. I would be very surprised if things have changed so much there that girls are encouraged to pursue white men over Asian men.

The exception to this is if the guy is rich/famous/powerful/some combination of all three, but at that point, nationality doesn't matter any more because rich/famous/powerful. Like many homogenous cultures, in Korea racism isn't so much an issue as classism, and that's where some of the racism towards black and Latino people come from: white people rule the world, therefore a white person is acceptable. Black and Latino people are comparatively poor, therefore not acceptable. I remember it was a huge deal in the Korean community when Nicholas Cage married a Korean waitress - at the time, he was a big movie star who earned $20 million per movie. He could've married ANYONE, but he chose this Korean girl, therefore she MUST be special! Good for her! But for the average Asian girl with a white guy? Well, that guy better at least be from a good family and be as or better educated as she is, or it's a shame on the family.

54

I don't think LW2 necessarily has an Asian fetish because he mentioned his hot Asian wife. In my experience, white guys who brag about being with an Asian woman want to show "look, I'm so awesome that this Asian woman from a culture that famously frowns on interracial dating chose ME," or to virtue signal and/or show that they are an authority on the culture ("I don't think racism towards Asians exists, and I should know because I'm married to one and SHE never complains about it.") I was once accused of virtue-signalling once because I commented on casual racism, and they used that exact argument. Strangely enough, they didn't respond when I mentioned that I am Asian myself, have actually experienced it many times, and can point to numerous examples of Asians and Latinos who have gone through the same things I have...

55

It is difficult with stereotypes, because such things do develop from some truths.
What I do see are older white men with younger Asian women, because many Australian men find brides in Asia.

56

@Jina: Thanks for your really interesting perspective on all of this. I absolutely defer to your experience and background, but I also know for a fact that at least some white guys who would say they have a "hot Asian," or "sexy Asian babe" do indeed have an Asian fetish (and they probably also see their whiteness as a desirable trait for those Asian hotties). Unfortunately, I know this because I have had the gross experience of hearing them brag.

57

HMM,
Do you want blow jobs from your wife, or do you want them from men? And do you want to just receive, or do you want to also reciprocate? Because if you just want blow jobs and is HMM because your wife won't do it, then maybe find out why she doesn't like it. Is it the taste, smell, hygiene hang-ups? Does it take you a long time to come and her mouth gets tired? Does the taste of sperm makes her gag? Do you thrust too hard? Is your penis too wide for her mouth? Does she think drooling is gross? Maybe she's a perfectionist and thinks she's bad at it! Do you reciprocate? Is oral sex just boring for her, both receiving and giving, or just giving? Was she brainwashed into thinking it's immoral? Ask her to be honest with you. Find out what the problem is and maybe you can fix it. If she has a problem with taste, smell, or cleanliness, you can take a shower right before, or take a shower together and have at it there under the water, or in a hot tub, where any drooling will be washed away, and you will just taste and smell clean. Maybe you can give her oral first, or at the same time so she's all relaxed/turned on and want to do it. Or you can watch porn (make sure it's sexy for women and not just aimed towards men), or have some wine to get into the mood. If your peen is too wide then have her use her hands for most of the length and just lick and suck the tip. If you take a long time to orgasm then get a hand job until you're at least half way there. Give her a massage as part of foreplay. Make it fun and sexy. If it's a hang-up about sluttiness etc, then show her how much you love and respect her, and your love and opinion of her will not change afterwards. Make lots of appreciative noises when she's doing it and afterwards, etc.

If you are wanting blow jobs from men because your sexual interests have expanded, then it might be a problem, since your wife is worried that you will like it too much - translation: she's worried that you might find out that you like sex with men more than sex with her! And/or you will fall in love with one of these men and your marriage will go kaput. If you're certain you're bi and not gay, then find ways to reassure your wife, and she might be okay with your exploring. Although I think she would still not be okay with a polyamorous type of marriage, so you might be able to get blow jobs from different men on Tinder, but not a friend-with-benefits or fuck buddy or boyfriend.

Whatever you do, do not cheat, do not present her with a fait accompli, do not take away her agency. That's the way to divorce court.

58

To clarify, my @ 31 wasn’t meant to exonerate LW2, but rather point to his somewhat bitter, preconceived take on his situation.

60

I think American popular culture have influenced racial perceptions throughout the world. Black men were/are often portrayed in movies and TV shows as criminals- muggers, drug dealers and killers. This notion has sipped to some cultures over the years, especially where there weren’t any blacks.

Same goes to “The sexy Asian woman,” a stereotype that was cultivated for centuries prior to show biz, as the main if not only contact with local women known to white men- travelers, merchants, soldiers- was visiting the local brothel and in some cases rape.

If my time in Japan is any indication then Sportlandia @ 47 may have a point about anti-black sentiment, yet his other broad overgeneralizations dilute his argument.

61

@59 Masculinity is indeed purely a matter of perception. Anyone with testes is pretty much the same amount of man objectively. However what people consider manly has shifted wildly over history and through societies. Foot-long winkle pickers, long luscious wigs and sex with boys have all been considered quite manly at various points in time, but will not get you much lumbersexual cred right now.

62

Tick...tick...tick....

64

You know who else likes to fuck Asian men? Asian women! You know what though? The last time I checked, they weren't getting gold medals for doing so. If they do start getting medals for it, then you can call the Academy and white guilt your way into the line. People are weird and attracted to all sorts of things and it can change on a dime for whatever reason. It's only today's society (well, the part we see in the media, I think most people, in reality, really don't give a fuck) that insists that you specify, identify, pinpoint, categorize, over-analyze, sit in sackcloth ashes, agonize, fret, write a letter to Dan.. yada, yada, yada. Do you treat the people you fuck like human beings? Yes? Good. No? Fix it. Next?

65

Iseult @49: Is anyone claiming otherwise? We are talking averages. On average, men are taller than women. That does not mean all men are tall and all women are short. Please take the current discussion in those terms.

Jina @52: Thanks for your expert analysis. So Asian-American women assume Asian(-American) men are too traditional for them, and dating white men is an acceptable level of rebellion in a culture where rebellion is not prized. It all makes sense and I'm glad to know it's not a "fetish" as others have inferred. (Though I'm sure some Asian women have a fetish for white men, just like some Asian women have a fetish for socks, because that's how fetishes work.) I hope your father has come around?

Lava @55: Yes. Asian mail-order brides have been a thing long enough to imply a fairly widespread "Asian babe" fetish. Western men assume they will be ultra-feminine and obedient. I sure hope most of them find out otherwise.

66

Question for you, Jina: Is there any validity to Surfrat's speculation that Asian women are less inclined, or are socialised to not, give head?

67

@52 Jina - I'm referring to asians in asian, rather than Asian Americans. I notice for Asian Americans, there is more variance between cultures. Korean American parents seem to want their kids to only date Koreans, Cantonese seem to be the most pro-white. I went to school with a lot of Southeast Asians, and I think for socioeconomic reasons, the kids identify more with blacks and latinos than whites and japanese/koreans

68

BiDanFan @66: interesting question, given the impending @69.

69

nocutename @56 - oh, you are absolutely correct! There are certainly Asian fetishists, and I would think most Asians outside of Asia have met at least one. I would just be surprised if this was the case here, since the Asian-Americans I've talked about this with avoid them like the plague. In my limited experience, fetishists get their ideas about Asians from anime, movies, and other fictional sources, and therefore are a huge turn-off because they have weird expectations. I'm sure there are some who enjoy or don't mind the fetishization, but I would be surprised if they were anything but a tiny minority.

BiDanFan @65 and 66 - I wouldn't say it's an assumption that men are too traditional so much as just picking up a vibe for it. It's usually just subtle things like expecting the woman to clear up after a meal, or assuming that it's her job to bow down to his mother. Plus, you have to contend with the same expectations from his family as well, doubly-so in Asian families since the culture is so family-oriented. While evil mother-in-law jokes are common in any culture, it's especially true when it comes to Asians, since boys are often prized over girls, and in a traditional Asian household, it wouldn't be unusual for newlyweds to live in the groom's parents' house. In Korean, another term for "marriage" is "moving to the in-laws' house" for women (for guys it's "going to the alter"). Even when I dated non-Asians, meeting the mother was a huge and nerve-wracking experience for me, because I was so culturally-conditioned to think that she was going to overanalyze every little thing I did and would hate me by default, and that this would only change through extreme effort on my part. While I don't think this is something Asian women consciously think to themselves, I wouldn't be surprised if it IS a small factor in why so many Asian women end up with white guys. And that's not even going into the other problems with Asian family dynamics that are toxic for women.

So I really don't think it's a deliberate or even unconscious rebellion against tradition. I honestly think it's just that most Asian-American women find it easier to be comfortable and more of an equal partner when they date white guys rather than Asian men. It's a lot easier to be in a relationship when you feel like a respected equal and your potential MIL isn't picking apart everything about you to make sure you're good enough for her boy/family. Have you seen Crazy Rich Asians? The characters there go to more extreme lengths since they are megarich and therefore that much more careful about who joins their family, but all the whispering and backhanded comments and bullying is actually a fairly accurate portrayal of what a girl can expect if she marries into an Asian family and they decide she's not good enough.

As for my dad, he's come around as much as I could expect him to, but he still thinks I've brought shame on our family. The extent of the shame varies depending on his views of the moment. But, as I said, he's an outlier even by Korean standards. :)

Regarding blowjobs, I honestly can't answer that one! The only place I've seen blowjobs openly depicted in Asian culture is hentai and doujinshi, so my experience here is pretty limited. Sex is a topic people don't talk about openly in Asian culture, especially to young girls (they might get ideas). You can't be conditioned against something when no one will talk about it. Sex becomes a slightly more acceptable topic for older married women, which I'm pretty sure my mom did with the neighborhood ladies in Korea, but in a gossipy, secretive way. I certainly wasn't allowed to listen; the cultural hierarchy wouldn't have let them talk in front of me anyways. The only conditioning I can imagine would be something like "ladies don't do that, only SLUTS and WHORES do that," but they'd have to talk about it first. For reference, my mom only brought it up once, when I was 22 or so, in a "did you know this is actually a thing?" horrified kind of way. Apparently she had just found out what "oral sex" meant; when I asked her what she'd thought it meant, she said she thought it meant having discussions about sex.

Sportlandia @67 - I'm talking about Asians in Asia too! :) I'm sure there are some Asian women who love white guys, but speaking as an Asian who lived in Asia, it's generally not really the whiteness that matters, it's the advantages that a white guy can give to them (for example, a ticket to America and a better life). For a family that lives in the more impoverished parts of Asia - say, a poor farming community - sure, they consider marrying a white guy to be a step up and would certainly encourage it. I've known people who got married this way. They know it's the best way for their daughter (and maybe them too!) to have a decent life. But they would feel the same about her marrying a rich Asian guy. In fact, given the choice, they would probably prefer the rich Asian guy, since at least he would be "one of us."

I can't speak for all Asian-Americans either, but from what I can tell, most Asians prefer their kids to date/marry within their nationality. I honestly think it depends more on how long the family has lived in the US than their ethnicity, and maybe also on the child's status in the family.

70

BDF @ 41 - "My experience lines up with the stereotypes about both black and Asian men. Of course there is variance within all races."

My extremely abundant experience also (I am a slut, for those who don't already know). I have seen black men with small penises and Asian men with huge ones, but averages are averages.

"I will debunk the stereotype that bigger dick means better lover"

I second that debunking. Well-endowed guys tend to think they don't need to do anything other than being well-endowed. There are exceptions, of course, but averages are averages.

71

Mr Ricardo - Agreed, but with different phrasing. The instinct to coast is equally distributed among people of all types of endowments, but some people just don't have the assets on which to coast. It's like the flip side of Ring Lardner's story "The Caddie" when the protagonist's friend explains that good golfers aren't any more honest than bad ones; they just have less chance to lie. The club champion who makes a par 4 can't get away with claiming a birdie 3 when he obviously took two putts and needed two shots to reach the green, but the duffer who scores a 9 can call it 8 and quite often get away with it.

72

I’ve never read his work Mr Venn, I’ve always loved his name. Ring Lardner.

74

@68 fubar: I see what you did there. hee hee
@69 Jina: Big-time CONGRATS on scoring this week's Lucky @69 Award! May unending goodness shower upon you soon. Savor the riches! :)

75

Thanks Jina, and congratulation.
That’s how I read the Asian culture(s) I see in Australia. Strong family ties, favours the male child, etc. not that I’ve ever got close to Asian families. Like you say, they seem to keep themselves to themselves. Also I think there is a little contempt towards us lazy and disrespectful white Australians.
How then does this tie in with our LW, who by the way I’m finding it hard to have much compassion for. He knew the deal from the beginning.
He could give her a choice. She learns to give oral sex, or he discreetly goes elsewhere. If she says no again, to both, if it’s important to him, then they part. He can’t force her. He shouldn’t force her. His choices got him here.

76

We have a well know Asian Australian comedian, Benjamin Law. There’s a show based on his Family. He’s a gay man, and he writes as well.
Cultures mix and match, when they live with each other. It’s still important to respect the differences.
This LW, is racist and sexist, and he needs to deal with that. His hot Asian wife is a woman and the mother of his children. Respect her wishes and her limitations, and work with them. Help her learn to enjoy oral sex, don’t do it this way.
Give us his own fantasies of how he wants it to be, and how Dan, do I get my wife to just shut it, and play her part?

77

Jina @69: You have earned the magic number with your expertise this week. So it's not that Asian(-American) women prefer white men, it's that they prefer white men's mothers! :) I will make a note to watch Crazy Rich Asians. Thanks for your perspective.

79

Hunter 78@78: Nobody else has mentioned "the closet case perspective" this week. Is there something you'd like to share with the class?

81

Are we in class fubar? I thought we were all sitting round at the pub, and Hunter is like the old drunk slouched and holding up the bar, nattering away to himself.