Some form of non-monogamy seems like the best solution for CITM and Mr. Citm. Mr. Citm would have the opportunity to explore his same sex interests, and CITM could forgo participating in all those scenes that she presently loathes. But CITM, like other recent letter-writers, seems to treat poly as synonymous with non-monogamy. Her letter describes sex with many men, which sounds like non-monogamy, rather than poly, in which she would forge ongoing romantic relationships. In any event, non-monogamy doesn't have to be practice in such a way that anyone is having unlimited numbers of sex partners. It also bears mentioning, that Mr. Citm may be satisfied with just some occasional same sex encounters, and a low degree of non-monogamy might be all that CITM and Mr. Citm need to alleviate the strain on their sex life. Of course Mr. Citm might find that shy or not, finding same sex partners in his town isn't as challenging as he now imagines, and the thought of his wife having sex with many other men doesn't phase him much either.

*
In the past, when a woman wants to explore sex with other women, many commentors suggested that her male partner should only be allowed have sex with other men, as that is "equal." I rejected that position as unfair.. If those same commentors are consistent, in the case of CITM, she would be she would only be allowed to have sex with other women. I would reject that too as unfair, but I wonder how consistent other will be.

L-dub, you two should be able to solve this one. Lots of GGGness in this relationship. Just be open and honest with each other. You'll be solid.

CITM isn't a man, and it's no longer imaginatively and physically stimulating for her to roleplay a man in a way that makes her feel a sex prop or second-best substitute. Far from being bi-shaming, it's completely necessary she speak up for herself. If they open their relationship, there need be no assumption of parity in 'outside' sexual experiences or partners. Nor should she feel any pressure to play as part of a couple with thirds.

Yes CITM, you should tell him how you feel. If he’s trying to turn you into a man, then he’s not relating to who you are and that will erode your intimacy over time.
Being GGG doesn’t mean pretending to like something you don’t like, or ignoring feeling being objectified.
How you proceed once you’ve told him, that’s up to you two to sort. To me, a relationship is monogamous or not. Then if not, you work out the finer details. Each couple will arrive at different solutions.
Don’t lie to yourself to accomodate him.

I believe this is gender dysphoria and cis people can get it also. You have a right to not be okay with crossdressing.

What, precisely is the problem with him having his gay sex with her strap-on? THAT's the dealbreaker? I dunno, this feels like classic I'm-not-enoughism. Wearing the strap-on might not stimulate her nerve endings, but from the sounds of it they're giving each other full service and no one goes to bed unfulfilled.

Maybe the issue is that she thinks he's holding his non-straightness back from her.

Wait. Granted I might not understand this, but why would a bi man think his bi wife would get laid more outside the marriage than he would? I mean, seems like they'd have about the same chances of getting female partners (somewhat more difficult) and the same chances of getting male partners (pretty damn easy). Right? Makes me wonder if the husband is making an excuse? Some reason he doesn't really want to open up? I mean, even in a mid sized conservative town, even if it is a problem there, surely they could take sexy trips to the nearby big city from time to time? Seems like it would be very easy for the husband to find dudes who would fuck him and/or let him suck their real cocks.

The LW does not have to bi-shame him or even worry about coming across that way. As Harriet (and Dan, and the LW herself) indicate, it's not his being bi that she's feeling bad about. It's the feeling that she is being used as a prop. Also it seems the pegging isn't the problem- it's the emphasis on pegging (over a quarter of their sex life) and the fact that she's increasingly having to role play as a male. So one thing she can express is that she does enjoy the pegging, just not the pretending to be a man (which he can find elsewhere)- they can continue to have the het experience of her pegging him if they want. On top of that, I bet that pretending it's really hot to watch someone suck on a sex toy gets boring as the years pile on, and it's probably a good idea to mix things up a bit and refocus before you get seriously stuck in a rut.

Sporty, instead of reinterpreting her words or trying to rationalize them in a way that makes sense to you, try reading what she actually says and assume that she knows what she feels better than you do. Aren't you the one that was going on about how women have agency? It can suck to feel like you are just a man's fuck doll and that you- as a person- are not present at all. And that feeling can grow beyond the bedroom. She's correct to recognize there's something wrong, and emotions don't have to be rational nor do people owe a rational explanation as to why something sexual is unpleasant to them.

Hey LW — I just wanted to chime in and say your letter is really beautifully written, and shows a lot of compassion for your husband. You seem like a pretty great person who really cares about the feelings of everybody involved here, in a situation which a lot of people would (unhelpfully) describe as weird or yicky. I appreciate how thoughtful you're being, which I think is just what the doctor ordered in this case. I'm betting this is going to turn out well.

I'm guessing her hesitation here is that she's afraid (or knows) he'll leave him as soon as he has permission to get with guys.

Yup, this bi man is missing the man-sex he hasn't had for six years. She needs to continue to man up, so to speak, or open up. I don't think it would be harder for him to find male partners than for her to find male partners! The imbalance only happens when straight couples open up, because the person looking for men will always have more success than the person looking for women.

Dan is right that she can give him a hall pass to get this need for men met by actual men. It seems like all her needs are being met, so there's no need for her to have other partners just for the sake of it. (If she DOES happen to "organically" meet someone, she can act on those desires.) Perhaps he could get another partnered bi fuckbuddy, and if the relationship lasts, she could meet him, and once she knows him she might be more into the idea of a threesome. If she's truly as GGG as she says, it seems odd she wouldn't be into giving this a try.

Sublime @1, my position is consistent: they both seek partners who will meet their currently unmet needs.

@12 cont, in his case it's men, in her case it's no one, because she has no unmet needs. No different to my advice when it's the woman who's bisexual.

Sporty @6, what gay sex? He's not having any gay sex. Have you somehow read the letter as stating he's using her strap-on while having sex with men? Wearing a strap-on does not make one male, as Venn will no doubt confirm. Being fucked by a woman is still being fucked by a woman and therefore not gay sex, no matter how much Mr CITM might try to fantasise that it is. She ISN'T enough, and there's nothing she can unilaterally do about that.

Emma @7: "why would a bi man think his bi wife would get laid more outside the marriage than he would?"

Because bi women are a porn staple, while bi men are so frequently shunned that Dan just last week advised a bi-leaning married man to tell prospective male partners he's straight "for marketing purposes."

Mr CITM may not have considered the idea that he can ask for a hall pass without having to "fairly" give her one too. He may feel that there are more straight men out there than gay ones, which is true -- but he's probably neglected the fact that, should they conform to gender norms, she's more picky than he would be about outside cock, which should bring the odds closer to even for them. At any rate, it doesn't sound like CITM is terribly interested in either men or women outside the relationship, so his fears seem a red herring. I think that with a Grindr profile, he could get all the dudes he wants.

I think Dan's answer about the openness issues was perfect, and they probably both need to have more sex without each other.

One particular complaint of hers is that she can't feel anything with her strap-on, and that can possibly be cured. There are a variety of wearable double-ended dildos on the market, including the Feeldoe and similar designs from other manufacturers. She can certainly try one of those and see if she enjoys that better than her current strap-on.

Yasunori - I don't see where she is hung up that he has boners for others or that she wants monogamy. It seems to be him, not her, that was not willing to open up for fear that she would get laid more than he would. The problem is the sort of openness- she was open to separate expeirences, he wanted shared ones. How can you extrapolate from that that she was bothered by his boners for others? If you mean regarding her feelings around role-playing as a man, again she makes it clear she doesn't have a problem with him wanting to have boners for men. She just doesn't want to pretend to be that man.

Marty- like with above, where do you get that SHE is the hesitant one to open up?

For both of you, from the letter:

"He was not interested in being poly because he was anticipated an imbalance in the extra-marital relationships (that I'd get laid a bunch more, and he rarely would; which is maybe true since we live in a mid-sized, conservative town, and he can be shy)."

@yasunori, It's ridiculous to say that anyone claiming to be GGG in their monogamous relationship can't be "actually" GGG unless they're okay with their partner fucking someone else. That's that annoying poly-exceptionalism that seems to constantly rear its head in these comments and forums. It's 100% possible for you to be GGG, LW, and not want to have thirds in your relationship. And Yasunori is putting words in your mouth by saying you're "hung up on mononormative bullshit like "he will haz an bonerz for othep pplz"--- if I read your letter correctly, you don't want to SEE that, like, in front of you with your own eyes, as you're worried it will impact your relationships intimacy. That is totally fair, and you can be kinky as fuck without wanting to have thirds.

@BDF

I thought in that case (the marketing purposes) it was because of the sort of experience the LW was looking for, he'd have more luck presenting as a married straight man since this is something that some gay guys are chasing. (Right?)

I get the shame or the shunning, especially as they are in a small conservative city, but I'm saying that then his reason for not wanting to open up is NOT because he's worried that she'll get more action than him but rather because he's worried about the consequences of being openly bi in a town like this (either his own feelings around it or his fears of how others might respond). This is an important distinction and the solutions are different.

BDF (continued, sorry hit enter too soon): Yup what I was wondering is if he could just get a hall pass to go to the city and blow a guy every so often. It doesn't appear he's looking for a relationship. In any case, the conversation around the logistics of all this and what they really desire will probably clarify some stuff for both of them.

Also all you people who think GGG means being down with whatever your partner wants need to stop it with that. He's sometimes asking her to bind her breasts. If she enjoys that then fine, but it's perfectly reasonable that she could have the response that she is disappearing from the scenario, that she has to hide herself and let her body just be a stand-in. She's not claiming this is his intent and she's not blaming him or being insecure- she's simply identifying that she feels depersonalized here which is a very dark feeling to have and it can be very destructive to a person psychologically if it persists, and frankly I don't understand how anyone here can read this letter (which was fair and thoughtful and nuanced) and respond that she's not being GGG or that she's being petty- honestly it makes me worry about your ability to have any empathy at all in your own intimate relationships if your response is that she should just suck it up.

@BiDanFan,

Saying she "ISN'T enough" isn't helpful to anyone in this situation. If she and her husband have at this time agreed that monogamy is what they want-- and he's getting what he wants in the form of role-play, than implying a woman can't be enough for a bi-man is perpetuating some of the same bi-stereotypes you say you're railing against--- that a bi person is some kind of super slut that can never be satisfied by monogamy, or one person- and will always "need" to get their other-gender fix elsewhere.

LW,

A lot of us are assuming a lot of things about your husband that no one (including you) will really know until you talk to him. Maybe he loves this roleplay, but maybe if he's as good of a partner as you seem to be to him-- he'd be okay without it, or having it in lesser quantities. Maybe it only continued to ramp up, because you've been too 'GGG.' And as Dan and others said, being GGG doesn't mean continually doing something that makes you feel bad, or turned off. It turns out you aren't really GGG about dude on dude role-play. THAT IS OKAY. There's a chance your loving partner is okay with that too, if you just tell him. There is a chance that the end of this conversation results in a misunderstanding of sorts, where he respects your desire to not role play man-on-man as often, and still truly feels fulfilled with the sex you have. Shit, for all we know, he gets off on the man on man roleplay specifically, and isn't doing this because he's "missing" gay sex. There are lots of potentials here CITM, but you're going to have to talk to him to figure them out-- and it isn't bishaming to do so. <3

Why not something like a once every 3 months hall pass? each partner gets one outside partner 4 times a year. Sure he'll have to work a bit harder for it, but he can surely line up something given 3 months and that way there's no feeling of imbalance.

Adam @15 and DoubleDD @17, good points. Kinkiness and mono- vs poly orientation are two different things. I admit my bias (threesomes with two bi men are hot af!) coloured my advice; if she never wants to have this experience, she shouldn't feel an obligation to "progress" towards it.

EmmaLiz @18: Yes, the situation Mr Asian Fetish was looking for was more specific. But after a few decades in the bi community, there is stigma against bi men that does not exist against bi women. I chose to read your question as "why would an OPENLY bi woman have more success outside the relationship than an OPENLY bi man." I deplore that many straight women and gay men alike shun bi men, but it's sadly common. Lesbians often avoid bi women, but I have seldom heard of a man -- particularly a man seeking casual sex -- who would see that as a negative. So in order to find partners in the same numbers, Mr CITM would need to lie about who he is, and I think that equates to "finding it harder."

Wrecked @20: I refer to my initial post @11, where I said "She needs to continue to man up, so to speak [as in role-play a man], or open up." Perhaps this role-play is, in fact, fulfilling his need, but if she doesn't want to do it anymore, then the only solution is a different partner. Sure, some bisexuals can be happily monogamous, but others can't -- just like straight and gay people. And if he does want a male FWB in addition to CITM, that does not make him a "super slut." Suggesting "super slut" as the only alternative to strict monogamy isn't helpful either.

@BDF

So in order to find partners in the same numbers, Mr CITM would need to lie about who he is, and I think that equates to "finding it harder."

Is this true though? I mean, I'll take your word for it since I'm straight. But I'm under the impression (based on the time I've spent here and real life time dating men and real life conversations with gay male friends) that a mid30s bi married man seeking to casually suck cock would have absolutely no problem at all finding a man who would like his cock sucked. Like, in any sizable city, he could simply peruse Grindr for a while and have the whole experience wrapped up in a matter of hours the same evening.

This probably isn't what he's looking for (given that he's shy and more interested in a shared experience) but that isn't because he'd have a harder time finding partners than she would, right? Nor because he's bi as opposed to straight/gay nor because he's married, etc.

Unless you mean that he'd have a harder time finding an ongoing sexual relationship which, sure I could see that, but that's hard for everyone and it seems it would sort of even things out between them as she's likely to be discerning as well (women tend to be moreso and she doesn't sound overly keen anyway just open).

I don't know. I just wonder if what's really going on is that the experience he wants is the one he's having- not sucking actual dick of a man, not being fucked by a man (since he could easily have that) but rather sucking the dildo dick of his wife and being pegged by his wife in this role play context. A clarification of that (if it's the case, speculating and all) could help her with her feelings of depersonalization. If what he's really after is THEIR experience of this together then maybe they just need to figure out how to recenter THEM in the role play so that she's not feeling like a prop. If not, if she really is just a prop, then you'd think he'd be more likely to seek real cock (which is easily available). Other evidence of this- even though she is open to him going off on his own and having gay sex, he's response is that he only wanted to do have a third - again with her present. So unless I'm off on a tangent, it seems his sexuality might really be centered around their intimacy together and a chat about that might help her through what she's feeling regarding depersonalization.

@BiDanFan

Apologies for the bad syntax or misunderstanding. I was not implying that super slut was the alternative to monogamy-- but that that is the bi stereotype-- a super slut that can't be constrained by monogamy. So I think we're agreeing to the same thing-- the stereotype is bad, and not helpful. Of course a potential middle ground exists for bi people, just like straights-- as you said. The problem with your comment is you said she ISN'T enough for him, and you don't have enough information to make that decision-- besides the fact that he's bi-- which is why it perpetuates the negative stereotype.

Moving on from that, CITM:

I also still disagree that the only alternative to not role-playing as a man is another partner. It's a potential solution.

Until someone talks to Mr. CITM, for all we know, he might say "Dang Mrs. CITM, I thought you were loving the roleplay, but I don't need it to live or be fulfilled." She is visibly afraid that's the case, which is why she hasn't brought it up and reached out for help.but for all we know this is just Mr. CITM's current kink, and he can replace it just as easily with one that his wife is into as well.

As a bi-genderqueer in a long-term mono relationship, I find the frequent cultural insinuation that I can't be satisfied in a mono relationship insulting. I have asked my partner for some weirrrdddd roleplay before. I've gotten into particular habits, and kinks for longer and shorter periods of time and interest in my life. If my partner weren't into one of them, and wanted to not do it- it would not necessarily precipitate my need to go outside the relationship. I might just be cool with not doing it, especially if the rest of our sex life was really full and interesting.

TBH, I do think the hall pass is a potential solution for this couple. However, I also get annoyed at the hall pass always being "the" solution. The thing about monogamy is, (just like with poly or open/non-monogmous relationships) there are upsides and downsides to both. I know several people who when they opened up their relationship in some way, it broke it. Some poly folx are quick to say this means the relationship wasn't strong enough, or wasn't going to make it in the first place. But in reality, some folx relationship is better suited for monogamy, and that might mean that certain things (like getting your dick sucked by a dude)- just aren't on the table, and you're going to have to do without. The plus sides of your monogamous relationship have to outweigh that loss-- or you're in the wrong type of relationship.

I've been in several poly relationships, one of which was one of the healthiest and best of my life. But the rules from that relationship would not apply well to the one I'm currently in, and that is not a negative reflection on me or my current partner. And the benefits I get from monogamy with this partner, outweigh the occasional thing I miss out on from being poly. My previous wonderful poly relationship certainly had it's downsides and complicates AND still things I went without sometimes-- because most poly relationships still have some rules (to whom you can do what with and when). The fact of the matter is, most of us have to be okay with wanting to do a thing and not being able to occasionally, but the benefits of the relationship/(s) you're in should outweigh it.

Long story short CITM, don't let anyone convince you the solutions are all either/or. There are lots of gray areas to be played with, and you and Mr. CITM and gonna be just fine.

@7 I don't specifically see an explicit Agency issue but I agree with you that she's under no obligation to enjoy any particular sex act or to participate in acts she doesn't enjoy and she should feel entitled to speak up and advocate for herself in these scenarios. Given how GGG this couple seems to be, I'm just surprised it's the "behavior" that bothers her and I still suspect it's a trust/sharing issue: If he said "I want to role play that you are a man and we're having gay sex" I think LW might be significantly more amenable (or, would have been, had that been the initial ask) to that and I think, of all the couples we read about, this one has a great chance of resolving their issues and moving forward happily with a refocus on communication.

@EmmaLiz,

I just lurk here, but I commented today specifically to say I think your insight in this case is poignant and thoughtful, and picked up on several degrees of nuance in LW's comments that most posters and even Dan to some degree, over-simplified.

Your comments specifically on the psychological impact of depersonalization, and then the later comments in (23) on what Mr. CITM may actually want, are particularly thoughtful and astute. After reading them, I think you might be on to something.

Emma @23: I think we're splitting hairs. Like I said, I don't think he would have a hard time finding partners on Grindr, we agree there. Whether the queue for his wife would be longer is irrelevant, so let's leave it.

Wrecked @24: My observation that this particular man seems to have a fundamental need for man-on-man sex was not meant to imply that this is the case for every bisexual out there. FWIW, I agree with the rest of your comment. She hasn't even raised this with him. For all she knows, the "cock" sucking is something he enjoys but doesn't need, and she might be able to achieve the effect of allowing him to fantasise about a man by blindfolding him instead of binding her breasts. And for all he knows, she's loving the role play. There are many possible approaches here but the first step is of course to use her words.

Both of you may well be right that Mr CITM would not, in fact, jump at the offer to go find a real man to shag; he may be not just happy with, but prefer, CITM to play that role. Indeed, perhaps if he reassures her that he DOESN'T want a man, he just wants his wife's male side, she will enjoy this like she used to, and the problem will be solved.

@16 i did not "extrapolate" or make up anything. I read the letter.
" I hate this idea for all of the stereotypical reasons monogamous folk often do, I fear my reaction, being left-out, what it would do to our intimacy to see him get rock hard for someone else"
She is pretty clear and aware about her own reservations, and they are as described.

To the larger (and partly @17 ) point - about how kinkiness necessitates willingness to have group sex - i didn't really say that (but more about that later, when i say it)
First: What i had issue with is the trend of, lets say, a kind of virtue signaling, where we hear a testimonial peppered with buzzwords like "kinky" and "ggg" and how awesome and earth-shattering their orgasms are and how the communication is a-may-zeeeen...
...
...except for that one issue
that in this case takes up to 40% of their sex.

I mean, it's ok to admit that things are not great, this is why advice columns exist.

Secondly, yes, i would say that being averse to threesomes kinda-sorta disqualifies one from being "ggg".
Because sure, everyone has their own limits, and group sex isnt for everyone
But to not even try a thing that happens to be themost_popular_ sexual fantasy?
I mean, if everyone is "ggg", no one is. Why even have a term then.
And it should be noted that not being "ggg" does not disqualify one from getting help from Dan. You are not willing to entertain some popular fantasies because you have your reservations and fears - and it's okay.

Also, to elaborate on my assumption from previous comment, on the offchance mr. LW reads this
Dude, i understand you more than you imagine, and i'm here from the future to tell you this: if i am right and you think you have better chances as a couple, you are wrong. As a bi couple your dating pool shrinks considerably and is padded by the dishonest guys who aren't really bi. As several people mentioned, grindr will work beatifully for you.

@16 i did not "extrapolate" or make up anything. I read the letter.
" I hate this idea for all of the stereotypical reasons monogamous folk often do, I fear my reaction, being left-out, what it would do to our intimacy to see him get rock hard for someone else"
She is pretty clear and aware about her own reservations, and they are as described.

Read it again then. These were her words to describe why she doesn't want a three-some. Not why she doesn't want nonmonogamy which she offered and is open to and he turned it down. Not wanting to participate or watch your partner fuck someone else is not the same thing as being troubled that he has boners for others. To make that leap, especially ignoring the fact that she offered to be open in other ways, is in fact an extrapolation on your part.

Ms Fan - Perhaps if I were as hot as you've always been, I might not have found it reassuring that I had the ability to produce naturally bumpy laps. To you, such things might not matter or appear a natural tribute you take for granted, but to someone who has always found it extremely difficult to assume anyone might actually be attracted to me until it had been proved against him, such a thing was indispensable to my being able to navigate an initial encounter with anything like the requisite confidence. Ms Cute will recall how, for the fifteen-year-old Catherine Morland, who had grown up very plain, being called by her parents "almost pretty" was a greater tribute than a beauty from her cradle could ever receive.

@29
"Not wanting to participate or watch your partner fuck someone else is not the same thing as being troubled that he has boners for others."
kinda the same thing
Because he has boners for others, one way or another, the difference is you don't see them and pretend not to know about them. Which isn't healthy or sustainable, in my opinion.
I wouldn't recommend CNM to a person like that, in fact, because i don't believe in DADT.

@31 Kinda the same thing in the same way that getting angry at someone is kinda the same thing as stabbing them with a pair of scissors.

Yasunori, are you trying to say that people who enjoy watching their partners fuck others are the only ones who can have healthy and sustainable relationships?

If that's your truth for you, then more power to you. But stop trying to judge others by that standard. DADT works for plenty of people- it worked for my marriage for about a decade- and your beliefs regarding DADT are completely irrelevant.

@28 & 31

"The most popular sexual fantasy" shouldn't have anything to do with kinkiness or GGG definition. I'm sure at one point in one country the most "popular" fantasy was jerking it on a woman's visible ankle, but that doesn't mean the masses were kinkier than a couple that were doing anal stretching in the 1600s and weren't into ankle-wanking, or thought ankles were kind of gross.

The fact of the matter is that GGG or kinkiness should be defined by a general willingness to be down to do most things in the kink repertoire, but not necessarily EVERYTHING. For christ sake, would you tell someone who didn't want to sound, but does pretty much anything else they can think of, that they aren't kinky or GGG? This is some serious gatekeeping, and it's stupid. And if its about "popularity" that's also stupid.

Also ignored in your comment chains are the fact that Mrs. says this problem has only occurred in their six year kinky sex history in the last year or so, with increasing frequency- leading up to her not being into it recently. So the blanket assumption that 30-40% of their sex has been bad, is not fair either. It sounds like she wrote when it really started to bother her, five years into a history of great sex. And it also sounds like she wrote because she was worried she was "wrong" for how she was feeling (the bi-shaming) not because she doesn't know how to communicate with her husband. And that is admirable and considerate.

Honestly @28, it sounds like from your address of the Mr. LW at the end of the writing, that you are maybe trying to apply too much of your own personal history to a LW that isn't really about you- and your comments are so full of logical fallacies they are hard to read. (see @32)