Generally good advice from Dan, and I appreciate the hard truths of #1. So. Many. Women. Fake It. Or faked it for good portions of their exploratory sex years. Shit I faked it. A lot of the times I had fun, and my partner was "good"-- but he coaching and teaching required (and focused direct clitoral stimulation) was challenging enough that I was okay with only coming some of the time with partners, especially when I was younger.

Also especially when I was younger, so many of the het dudes were sooooo insecure about not being able to make me come with their dicks, that I wasn't interesting in stroking and repairing their ego for 20 minutes after I just spent 20 minutes stroking their cock.

30 something wiser me is way more into making sure I come, teaching, and being upfront-- but 30something or older men tend to be more excited for the challenge than pouty- that their PIV didn't just "do it."

Anyway, I would throw out that some women do need to have their eyes closed to really enjoy their orgasm, or even need their eyes closed to work up to it properly. Kind of bummer maybe for some folks, but doesn't necessarily mean she isn't into her partner or is fantasizing about someone else. I can come with my eyes open, but my default come-enjoyment-position is eyes closed.

Dan's #5 was unnecessary. Why catch his ego, and besides, erect penises don't take criticism well.

should be: "Why scratch his ego?"

She's got a fetish she doesn't want to share with him, either because he'd be too judgy or she just wants to keep it to herself.

Eyes clamped shut doesn't necessarily mean she's fantasizing about something/someone else. I often clamp my eyes shut during sex for an entirely different reason: to focus on physical sensation. I personally find it way easier to focus on what my body is feeling if I'm not also having to process sight at the same time.
I thought this was fairly common.

i find the 100% idea that is on facebook comments and some by dan that this dude sucks at sex. you know what sounds like bad sex? having the knowledge that sex will be missionary while she closes her eyes and focus on herself while her partner does his job. like could he go in to start making out while fucking or is that going to mess up her rhythm.

He's not happy because of her O Face?
And he doesn't like to have to focus on her clit because his dick should be enough? So she has to focus on her clit herself?
Anyone else think his fantasies are all as self centered as his vanilla sex?
Run and run fast! DTMFA
And psssst hey, you're a lousy lay and the other women were lying

Why not change it up and stop making it all about your dick; why don't you ask your wife to help you please her. Stop worrying about mission impossible (being able to make her orgasm with your dick) and pay attention to your woman.

You do love her right? show it by paying attention to her needs first and she should be more than happy to take care of you.

Note: some women do shut down after 1 orgasm so if you want to be involved time her orgasm with you entering her and take her to her orgasm.

Been awhile since we’ve been treated to a real letter from a clueless dork, thanks Dan. Nice job going easy on him.

"Your wife is fantasizing about something when she closes her eyes and starts rubbing her clit. "

This is not necessarily true. When I'm approaching orgasm, I'm highly focused on the sensation itself, my breathing, in the moment to the point where nothing else intrudes. There is no possibility for fantasy.

I assume Dan means if she's rubbing it out with her eyes closed for a long time, not the minute or so before orgasm?

The only advice I can give the LW is that they take turns. That means, either she doesn't orgasm some of the time, or they do other things first and then she works on her orgasm. But honestly, it just sounds like they are not compatible. I never understand why people get married with the expectation that the sex you have after marriage will be different than the sex you had before.

I’m a straight cis male, and I don’t get other guys’ fixation on making women come without clitoral stimulation. Going down on a woman is AWESOME—it’s my favorite part of sex. It makes my partner really happy, which is great because I want her to enjoy herself, and it also makes PIV sex better because she’s always really wet after she comes. There’s literally no downside.

I get that some guys are really into PIV but sometimes it’s just not enough to get her there, and that’s just the way things are. Why not learn what gets your partner off and do that, instead of worrying that there’s something wrong with her because she’s different? (And not all that different really —I bet those other women were not telling him the whole truth about their experiences.)

Upon second reading, I highly advice the LW to keep the two issues separate. They are not things you should "combine".

One - that his wife needs intense and focused manual stim of her clit to cum. This is not a problem. Don't make it a problem.

Two- that his wife is not interested in exploring any other kinks or fetishes and their sex life is stuck in a rut. This is a problem.

Number two is something that will affect the health of your marriage. However, if your strategy to get your wife to get on board with having a more adventuresome sex life is that she should try to change the way she orgasms, then it is doomed to fail. She knows how to get pleasure and she is doing it. Don't change that. Try to find ways to do other things in addition to that. She does not have to orgasm from everything you do. If she is unwilling to consider ANYTHING other than rubbing her clit until orgasm, then she sounds like she's being very selfish. But you should not approach this issue with the expectation that other things should make her orgasm or that the clit stimming should be off the table- if its her main pleasure then it should be one of the main staples of your sex life.

Also I don't know about you guys, but I'm pretty sure the ad I'm seeing on this page is for mail order Chinese brides. ??

Upon third reading "the work it takes to get to orgasm" is weird. Do guys think of getting a blow job or having PIV as the work it takes to get to orgasm? Just because she's focused doesn't mean she doesn't enjoy that "work" just as much as you enjoy things that you do to work yourself up to orgasm.

If you mean, does the fact that she is unlikely to orgasm from any of the other things you guys could potentially do together make her less inclined to do them? Probably. That's why I think you need to approach it as something you are suggesting IN ADDITION to clitoral stimulation- whatever it is that you want to do, the clitoral stimulation should be a part of it (either during or eventually afterwards) most of the time. Unless she's being selfish, she should be willing to do some things that she knows will not lead to her orgasm just for your pleasure, but most of the time, for you guys to both get off, you will need to incorporate the clit stim into it. You did not mention vibrators or oral, if they are not already features of your sex life, I suggest both. This could increase the role play and positions you could enjoy. You also did not mention what your "other ideas" are or how the conversations went, so it's hard to say if she's being selfish. If you duck down into the comment section, I hope you elaborate.

How about sending this letter to your wife? Dan gave you some pretty good insight but she'll probably give you more (?). "information is power" they say.

Dude, that’s how she gets off! She isn’t a cum dumpster for you. And I’m sorry but your dick isn’t magical and as others have said your other long term partners were most likely faking it.

If you actually care about your wife’s enjoyment and pleasure you’ll assist her- go down on her; finger her while playing with her clit; rub your dick against it, get her excited, get her wet and let me break it to you, straight porn is not where you learn to please women. Your dick is not magical it’s normal. The sooner you accept that the sooner you can get over this ego issue.

@13 Emma is right. There are two issues that need unteasing--the LW's belief that it is his wife's fixation under her clitoris that is preventing them from having more exploratory sex (for him) (issue 1), and her not being GGG, at least some of the time, and seeing where they can go with his suggestions (issue 2). Her needing stimulation of her clit, and her perhaps having to be introspective rather than expressive in receiving these genital sensations during sex--that's a non-negotiable. That's how she is--and with better communication and trust, and an ability to propose scenarios to each other, they'll be able to work the clit stimulation into other ways of doing it.

It sounds like for her, sex is intense, introspective, a self-communing, and for him it's lusty, physical, agitated body-expression.... This is something they might have to talk about, so occasionally they can meet somewhere in the middle, or make it 'home or away'. It could be that she's entertaining fantasies that are private to her, that she might not have considered sharing ... but not necessarily, as people have said. I was a bit perplexed by 'sailing his dick' up his wife's vaginal canal. Does Dan imagine the vagina as a broad estuarial expanse, and the anus a tight, heavingly congested urban canal? There are many pleasure-spots and sites for pleasurable friction in the vag--though I'm not at all doubting the 25/75 ratio for purely PIV as against direct manual or lingual clit stimulation.

Perhaps Dan was thinking of the Rod Stewart standard 'Sailing'--the quintessential expression of heteronormativity.

I second #6 Mrs STB - I don't have my eyes closed the whole time during sex, but I find visual processing distracting as I'm nearing orgasm. Keeping my eyes shut is about focusing on physical sensations rather than visual ones. It has nothing to do with fantasizing about someone else or blocking out my partner. My hubby is hot, it's just how I'm wired.

It seems nobody believes that she really doesn't have any "fantasies, kinks, or fetishes". What's wrong with that if it's true? Maybe she just likes vanilla sex. The letter writer doesn't define "exploring" but it could be a lot of things a lot of woman aren't interested in. But we do know SHE'S not interested in the unnamed exploring, and I think that's fine. They may not be compatible, but I resist the idea that there's something wrong with her, or that she's hiding her true feelings. The letter writer says at one time she said she was open to "exploring", but perhaps he was just as cagey with her about what that meant as he is with Dan.

Dan's answer is 75% correct. A person should put in effort to connect with their partner during sex. We sometimes hear complaints that a person feels "masturbated into" when they're with a man who isn't suitably interested in her pleasure, it seems this LW feels "masturbated on". And I've had partners who apparently never had "fantasies" or was unable to express them in an otherwise extremely supportive sexual environment, that can be frustrating.

Confidential to LW: Ain't nothing stopping you from touching her clit while you fuck. If you're facing each other, use a thumb, if not, ye old reach around is still available. If you want to get kinkay, get one of those cockrings with a clit stimulating attachment.

In any case, tell your partner you want to be a bigger part of her orgasmic experience, rather than a living sex toy for her to get off with (and vice-versa).

EmmaLIz's addition was exactly what I was thinking. I think the LW is getting harsh treatment here. He's not saying he doesn't want her to focus on her clit (although I have no way to assume that he does or doesn't focus on her clit); rather, he is saying that she is only interested in one kind of sex. And nowhere in there is he saying that he is only interested in PIV sex or sex that is strictly about his dick. Maybe he proposed to her that he wants to eat her ass or he wants to tie her up and tickle her or he wants her to pummel him. None of these things would be about his dick and some would be strictly about her sensations.

With that said, dude should know that clitoral stimulation is always going to be crucial for her to get off given what he's described.

@22 The letter writer said that he is often the one stimulating her clit, not just his wife.

I'm not sure I'd say "sexually incompatible" but they do seem to have different views on routine.

She knows what works for her(intense clitoral stimulation, either done by him or her) and has 0 interest in changing that, while he wants variety.

Unfortunately for the guy this isn't the type of thing that changes without years of work which the person who is set in their ways(which is the core problem, I think, it isn't that he's a bad lay or she is somehow evil, she is just set in her ways and he likes change) usually doesn't want to do.

I'd say that she would have to develop an interest in trying new things and if not he will have to figure out if her being set in her ways is worth the price of admission.

I'll third the folks above: I also need my eyes closed to come, and it's not so much about my internal fantasies--although those can help--as the fact that I find visual data intensely distracting. I couldn't come at all for a long time, and I still have to concentrate pretty hard to do so, even with a fantastic partner. For a time I had to not only close my eyes but also put a pillow over them, or throw an arm over, to reduce the light getting in.

That said, it does sound like the wife hasn't found a way to be GGG or mix things up, despite his efforts to express that he would like that, and that is a real issue. Do they not have fun sex without orgasms? I mean, orgasms are great, but I also enjoy sex just for sex, without expecting to come. If they could find a way to a place where sex was playful and experimental, and not about orgasms every time, she might be less routine in her expression. But sounds like she hasn't been open to that. I dunno how you fix that.

1) all of your exes were faking it

2) sex is about both people, not just you

3) get her a vibrator as a parting gift

Well, this letter is from 2005. I hope they've either figured out a solution that makes both happy or have moved on by now. But THIS is from today:
https://slate.com/human-interest/2019/04/doesnt-give-oral-sex-advice.html

Closing her eyes may mean she's totally concentrated on the sensations she's into and doesn't want distractions. It doesn't necessarily mean she's fantasizing. You can't know which it is, or if it's something else, without asking her. Seriously, Dan and some of the commenters here need to figure out that they're not mind readers, and don't know what's going on in someone else's head unless that person tells them.

What is off-putting about this letter is that while CAYA has a legitimate complaint, Ms. Caya is only interested in a limited sexual menu, CAYA has zeroed in on Ms. Caya's need for intense clitoral stimulation during sex in order to orgasm. That betrays his negative feelings about the way his wife needs to orgasm, as well as his ignorance about women's bodies more generally. In CAYA's defense, he does write that he is often the one providing that stimulation, but it sounds like he has grown to dislike doing so. He might find this to be less "work" if he were holding a vibrator, so he might want to discuss introducing a toy into the action. They might also try different positions which make this work better for them both. In a doggy position, Ms. Caya's clit rubbing could also rub across Caya's balls, which feels good, rather than bumping against Caya's penis.

As for Ms. Caya's eye closing for an extended period of time, that is very common, particularly if you need to stay focused on physical sensations in order to orgasm. I have had partners who pulled a pillow over their heads as @26/ciods did.

Wow. Yah, I feel cheated since this is just a repost from 2005. WTF?!? Also, I agree that Dan's response definitely went easy on the guy. Maybe Dan was having an off day? I don't know. Even way back in 2005 if a guy had had sex with that many women (more than one) he should know more about female anatomy. He sounds like a total douche to me. Like "I want it to be all about my penis. Why do I have to deal with that clit thing?!?" Hey dude, if you only want to deal with penises, then get it on with a guy! I mean, in his letter he sounds totally NOT interested in his partner's desires at all. Next!

@28 - NoCute

You beat me to it! lolz.
I have never responded here (...total creeper, I know), but I thought today's "How To Do It" should definitely have been thrown to the SLLOTD commentariat. ;)

They were definitely faking it, just to get it over with, most likely. Where has this guy been? He's writing to Savage Love, so presumably he's been reading it too, right?

I only met one woman who climaxed from PIV alone (well, that's not true - she'd climax the moment I whispered "I love you" in her ear). That was nice, I suppose. But I really enjoy giving head. I can't fathom anyone not enjoying that, actually.

Ugh, I remember this column, which I think has been reprinted at least once, and Dan has not corrected it! Dan, SHE IS NOT NECESSARILY FANTASISING when she closes her eyes. It sounds more to me like she can't come while multi-tasking, and looking at things counts as multi-tasking. She needs to shut down her sense of vision to concentrate on the sensation in her clit. She is NOT closing her eyes because she thinks he's not nice to look at.

Yeah, I love points 1, 2 and 3 but disagree on points 4 and 5 about closed eyes indicating fantasizing or lack of attraction. Many people close their eyes when kissing, too. That doesn't mean they're trying to blot out their partners.

@28 @nocutename - Interesting read, though it seems to me the guy should just be upfront about it and seek partners who don't like receiving oral. I don't know how many women fall in that category, but I know they're out there because I see them comment. I don't know what other meaningful feedback he was thinking he'd get.

Some people suggest that sex isn't a team sport and you gotta get yours however you can. I suppose that's a fine approach if you're in to the hook up / casual sex world, but most monogamous people expect a more mutually satisfying sex life.
I think there's blame here to go around. On the one hand, she's just masturbating while he's in the room. On the other, why can't stimulate her clit with his dick, tongue or fingers? There's a lot of miscommunication and poor technique here.

If CAYA is as vague with his wife about what those boundaries are that he wants to explore as he is in his letter, no wonder his wife is closing her eyes. The letter sounds like he wants his wife to please him, but he's playing tantalizing as to how. If he could say what he wants specifically, he they could trade it up. She does what he wants some of the time. He does what she wants (rubs her clit) the rest of the time. But enough with the guessing!

We can't really tell from the letter what their sex life is currently like. For example, is she just laying there masturbating (or being masturbated) the whole time and he'd like for her to be more active? Or do they have an active and varied vanilla sex life that INCLUDES clitoral stimulation to orgasm and he's like her to do kinky/fetish stuff? I assume it is the second since he says he wants to explore kinks/ fetishes- not that he wants to mix things up a bit within the vanilla world.

Regardless, he does sound very negative about how she orgasms, and his desire to make her orgasms part of the problem of the lack of fetish/kink does not bode well. Since it's an old letter, I wish we had an update. Did they work it out? Are they still together?

Tim Browne, he did say he gets her off too- so we have no idea if she's "just" masturbating while he's in the room or not, and even if she is, so long as that's not ALL she's doing, so what? I've been with guys who jerk it towards the end to cum and yeah, sometimes it can be not too exciting to watch someone please themselves in a way that you can't feel for a minute or two. But unless you are a selfish person or unless this is the entire sex act, so what? You just try to participate in how hot it is for them and find something else to do with your hands/mouth.

NoCuteName and Future Cat Lady, I don't particularly like receiving oral. I don't dislike it either but it's not my fave thing- there are a dozen other ways I'd prefer to get off. Basically, if a guy did not want to do it, I'd never ask for it again. But please don't kick assholes like that guy down the road to women like me! He doesn't like going down on women because he has an aversion to vaginas- EVEN VERY CLEAN VAGINAS- (he's sure to clarify, not all those dirty gross ones). That would not work for me, regardless of the fact that I'm indifferent to receiving oral. I don't know what to say to that guy because it does sound like some honest aversion that he wishes he didn't have, but it's also just dripping with disgust of pussy so I'm not sure what he has to unpack there or what the point would be even. All I know is that we- the women who are not into receiving oral- shouldn't have that dumped on us! Ha ha!

Tim @36: No, she's masturbating when he's in the vagina. (Or he is masturbating her.)
You're gay, so you can be forgiven for not getting it. His dick won't get her off. His tongue won't get her off. The only way this woman gets off is with direct manual clitoral stimulation. This is fairly common and CAYA shouldn't take it personally -- she is coming! She's coming during sex with him! Yay! He shouldn't be shaming her for not coming like a man because she isn't one. The problem is that he's not satisfied with the way she gets satisfied, and he needs to get over that. (I'm presuming that she doesn't start rubbing and concentrating immediately, never focusing on him while they are fucking; if she truly is in her own world from the moment of penetration, she should take some time to smell the sexual roses, as it were, and enjoy fucking him in a more connected way before tuning out and trying to come. I don't know whether this is what she's doing or not.)

Nocute @28: Agreed, he should state on the first date that he doesn't give oral but enjoys receiving it. That way he can exclude the majority of women who won't find that appealing, but include the minority who don't enjoy receiving oral. (He will also avoid all manner of arguments over it in future.) The other thought I had was that he said he doesn't enjoy it because he doesn't like the way vulvas look. He could try taking a page from Mrs CAYA and doing it with his eyes closed, or blindfolded? (It is not necessary to maintain an erection while giving your partner oral. Just saying.) But if he has indeed been trying for a decade and it's not just the look but the rest of the experience, he'll have to disclose that potential dealbreaker up front, just like any other.

Two words. Sex Toys.

EmmaLiz @41 (and futurecatlady & nocutename) --

You can pass him on to me and I'll give him a try. I dislike receiving oral and would be happy to give bjs without reciprocation.

On the other hand, he probably won't want to beat me. But it would be interesting to see if that was more appealing than giving oral.

@37. cockyballsup. But the bottom could be having pre- or non-ejaculatory (non-semen) orgasms.

@41, 43, 45: Wait, wait! I offered no advice to the man who is grossed out by vulvas. I didn't suggest he put his aversion out there and hope to find a woman who doesn't like oral--and I know they exist. By linking to it, I essentially meant just to say, "hey, take a look at this."
My thought was that both of these letter writers are men who are unfortunately straight. Unfortunate, because they don't seem to care about giving women pleasure and would prefer that the women in their beds just get off from the proximity of their magical penises.

For what it's worth, I would not have suggested that the dude who wrote that letter try to find a woman who doesn't care for cunnilingus, and for the same reason that EmmaLiz said @41: he really, really doesn't like women's genitals. I wouldn't want to point him in any woman's direction.

No no no

It is crass to discuss you're preferred sex stuff on a first date. Really, what you do and don't do sexually shouldn't be mentioned until the shirts come off. You are allowed to have a no sucky-fucky hookup the first time; then you can discuss your sexual boundaries with someone.

Also, I'd really like to see some stats on who is providing oral. My experience has been roughly 45/45/10 in terms of hates it wont do it/will do some sometimes occasionally/loves it. I would guess men are 20/40/40?

Don’t know who you’re fucking Sporty...my numbers would be 90 percent of women I’ve been with will give head, most enthusiastically, only a few not quite as much...actually maybe even higher than that. Gotta factor in my ex wife who I now think is/was most likely asexual, but she, thankfully, was the exception to the rule.

Tonight, current GF just came 4 times in 5 minutes while I was eating her out, using varying combinations of fingers, vibrators and tongue in varying orifices. NOTE: this would have been a rare occurrence indeed when we first started dating and she was pretty much a one and done gal. But practice makes perfect, and while she doesn’t do that every time, she can usually come at least twice per session. Mood makes a huge difference for women, so LW’s disdain for her preferred method of coming is self-defeating. I once had a GF who could ONLY come by grinding on my pubic bone while sitting on me cowgirl style. I remember wishing for a little more variety back then, but hey, at least she was coming, so ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

Sportlandia @48: "I don't eat pussy" is not your preferred sex stuff, in fact quite the opposite. It's a very common dealbreaker. Okay, maybe not first date, but once you know you're interested in having sex with this person who, the odds are overwhelming, will want you to give them oral sex as some part of any future sexual repertoire. If you just don't do that, they need to know. (If you were on a date with a woman who refused to suck cock but expected you to go down on her, wouldn't you want to know that as early as possible?)

I've only encountered a couple of men who won't eat pussy. So let's round that up to 5%, to take into account hidden non-pussy eaters, aka hookups who didn't eat my pussy but might or might not have happily done so on a nonexistent future occasion. A far higher number who will gleefully do it every time, including a few who prefer it to intercourse. And in my experience two women, but one of them turned out to be straight, so let's call it a proportion roughly equal to the men. Which seems to line up with these stats:
https://www.lehmiller.com/blog/2018/1/26/do-men-and-women-find-giving-and-receiving-oral-sex-equally-pleasurable

Donny @49: Yeah exactly. If this woman can sense that LW is impatient with her doing what she gotta do to come, that is probably inhibiting her coming. He should learn to enjoy rubbing her clit and the sight of her eyes-wide-shut cum face.

Say, BDF, wasn't there something with you having a date with a woman who wore cufflinks a while ago? If I'm not too presumptuous, how did that go?

I think people are allowed to not like what they don't like. But the level of "yuck" in that Slate dude's letter was off putting. It's not just that he doesn't like the work involved or the smell or taste--and he makes sure to clarify that it's not a hygiene issue--it's even the sight of vulvas he's grossed out by.

If I got the sense that my partner found my genitals gross, I'd never feel comfortable having sex with him.

Same in the letter from CAYA--if I sensed that my partner viewed my doing what it took for me to orgasm as a bore and a chore, I'd not want to have sex with him.

@49 get it how you live boy

Just want to raise the issue that there are more than two kinds of women in the world. I wouldn't say that my wife needs "focused" clitoral stimulation or that she gets off "purely" from my magic dick. I could go down on her for a month and she wouldn't come and purely manual stimulation isn't going to let me get her off either.

What works for her are:

Dick + unfocused clitoral stimulation, like when she's on top and turns back and forth over my pelvic bone or when she's on the bottom face-down and I - very gently - manually stimulate her clit (this is very unreliable).

Dick + gentle stimulation of her nipples, like when she's on top, but bouncing up and down, not grinding, and I hold my hands so her nipples are just grazing my hands.

Dick + harsh stimulation of nipples and breasts like me behind her or her on top with me squeezing her breasts hard or pinching and twisting her nipples.

Dick + pinning her down while she struggles + light abuse + a ton of dirty talk. She likes this and it does sometimes work, but there is a problem in that the struggling and dirty talk can make me come before she gets there. With great effort I can continue the PIV and sometimes get her off after me, but there is literally nothing we have found that I can do to get her off of I can't continue some level of active PIV.

Dirty talk and struggling also help any of the other methods, but can raise the issue of making me come first.

For the most part manual or oral stimulation of her clit is something we do during foreplay and even then it involves a lot of teasing (rubbing everything but her clit with only brief stimulation of the clit itself while she begs for more.

So, yeah, for us stimulation of her breasts/nipples and dirty talk are both more important than direct focused clutoral stimulation. Different women are different. There are more than two types.

@49 @50 it strikes me that both of you guys love what I suspect are openly sexually liberated lifestyles. Bdf you keep multiple partners and Donny I'll assume you're part of a kink community or at least forward with your kink interests. I think you may be pulling from a different pool of people than us serial monogamists.

@56 ~ Nope. Lifelong serial monogamist, and while I would totally be up for a swing lifestyle, none of my GFs later in life have been open to that. But what I have done is to make sure that the women I’ve dated (for any length of time) are open- minded enough to want to try new stuff. So, if a woman had ever said, “Sorry, no oral sex, I think it’s icky” she wouldn’t have lasted long... but I can’t think of any situation where that ever happened, (although I DID have one girl say, “I really don’t like that” as I was going down, but she was college age and had just never had it done well. She soon changed her mind.) Even when I was young, and hanging with the repressed Baptists, there were girls who were rebelling against the “no-fun” rules, and those were the only girls that I had any interest in.

RE @52: I was the one in the cufflinks, and alas, despite an encouraging initial exchange of texts I've not heard from her. :(

Sporty @56, I've been serially monogamous in the past. I do agree with Donny that no one would have got to the monogamous stage if they didn't give me oral sex.
A few years ago I met a straight man, age 36, who had never given oral sex. Never! Once I made it clear that getting me off before intercourse was the price of intercourse (and he was terrible with his fingers), he proved willing to learn.
There's no excuse for shagging sex negative people, whether monogamy is your goal or not. The link I posted suggests Donny and I are not outliers.

BDF @58 Too bad! But: courageously forward.

Why does Dan give a pass to women who can't orgasm without direct clitoral stimulation, but men with the "death grip" are required to re-train themselves to orgasm via other methods? It seems like a pretty clear double-standard. It may be that generally women need clitoral stimulation to orgasm, but this letter writer seems to be involved with the female equivalent of the "death grip." If there were ever an opportunity to suggest that someone needs to open herself up to other means to the "end" such as it is, it seems like this woman is the right candidate.

DonnyKLicious @57

I'm definitely an open-minded type, up for trying new kinks & positions. But when I figure out I don't like something, that's a fact.

You wrote: "I DID have one girl say, 'I really don’t like that' as I was going down, but she was college age and had just never had it done well. She soon changed her mind."

Sounds like you pressured her into more cunnilingus after she said she really didn't like it.

I was assaulted at 17 when a friend held me down and gave me oral. I'd have been beyond pissed if someone later told me I was too young to know whether I enjoy receiving oral.

Now I'm 50 and still don't enjoy receiving.

Pretty presumptuous, in my eyes, to tell other people what they like or should like.

F3 @61: Why are there always one or two stupid men who respond to men getting good advice with "well, why don't you advise women to make more allowances for men instead of telling me that there's a way I could improve?"

In this case it's extra stupid if you think about it for a minute: Dan has a dick. Dan also likes dick. Dan is probably going to have some reasonably-informed advice on what can be done with dicks. Dan neither has nor has experience with vaginas. Why on earth would he be giving advice on whether someone can "re-train" their vagina? Especially to a LW who isn't asking questions about his vagina? Cause he doesn't have one?

Also, the anatomy is different and you can do things with vaginas that you can't do with penises and vice-versa. Most male sex/dating experts agree that "death grip" is a thing you learn and also a thing you can unlearn - that's why they recommend unlearning it, if it's causing you trouble. There really isn't an equivalent for women with PIV orgasms - it tends to be far more anatomy-based than a learned response.

@60. cockyballsup. I am the same. There's a lot of variation, even randomness, in whether I want my dick touched when I'm being topped--to the extent that with old lovers, with whom I've done it before, I'll often take their hand and bring it round, if it so happens that I didn't feel like it on previous occasions. Fortunately this isn't an issue in gay life where someone risks missing out because of people's assumption of a default.

@61. F3. With your encouragement of anal, I quite share your instinct--but we may just be confusing what we like with what the LW's wife would like.

F3 @61: Because it's always the man himself who's complaining that he can't come from intercourse because of death grip, and always the man himself who's always complaining that his partner needs direct clitoral stimulation. The correct advice for someone with a problem is to try to help them solve their problem; the correct advice for someone complaining about someone else's "problem" is to get over it.

Also, what @63 said. These two things are not equivalent. The equivalent to "I can only come when my clit is stimulated" is "I can only come when my dick is stimulated." Neither of these are problems that need solving, or -can- be solved. The solution for men who think women should be able to come from PIV is to educate themselves about the female anatomy. The clit is where it's at, and even when a woman comes vaginally, that's because her inner clitoris (G-spot) is being stimulated, along with probable external stimulation of her outer clit when the man's body rubs against it.

Harriet @65, I think you may be mixing up two different comments. F3 didn't say anything about anal, which at any rate would be highly unlikely to produce orgasms in someone without a prostate.

Erica@62~ She was young and had just never experienced good oral before… I didn’t pressure her, I just said “Tell you what, give me 5 minutes and if you really don’t like it I’ll stop.” She had a huge orgasm, and I Know I changed her mind about oral sex (‘cause she told me so). We did it a couple more times that night with the same results and it’s one of my favorite memories. I hope it’s one of hers as well. It would have been different if she was 35 years old and I would’ve assumed she had enough experience to know what she did and didn’t like.

@66, 67: Good comments, both. I like BiDanFan's distinction between who is bothered by what it takes to orgasm--it's useful when thinking about all sorts of problems/issues/situations that people write in about.

But also, yes, cockyballsup, I think Dan doesn't do a lot of people a lot of good with his "retrain yourself" and "death grip syndrome." It's possible that some men give themselves the death grip syndrome, but it's just as likely that they use the death grip because that's what it takes to get them to come. I mean, if it's a given that some women need the intensity of a vibrator moving faster than any human body part ever could, in order to come, I don't know why we can't see that maybe some men need a certain amount of pressure and tightness in order to come. I'm a big believer in understanding your own body and its needs and respecting the needs of your partner's body. This includes what it takes to orgasm. I think Dan started saying this with no scientific evidence to back himself up a long time ago (I've heard him talk about it for at least 13 years), and even though he has softened his position slightly (I have occasionally heard him tell a man that that's just the way his dick works), he reverts to the "retrain yourself" advice out of what I suspect is habit. Interestingly, he almost never considers SSRI use, and given that they're such a common type of drug that so many people are using and that their effect on men in particular can be a loss of libido, difficulty in getting or staying hard, and inhibiting orgasm, and that these things are well-known, I am always surprised he doesn't mention this or factor it into his response.

I've also gone on a really interesting journey, orgasm-wise, from someone who couldn't /didn't until close to age 40, to someone who could only orgasm with one particular type of vibrator held only by me and with me lying in only one position--all of which sounds limiting, but considering that I had been anorgasmic for so long, I was thankful for every orgasm I got. Then I started being able to come from oral and fingering (best if combined), and now I am one of the 30% who can come just from the magical dick. I can even come from anal with no additional stimulation, if I have already had that first starter orgasm.

But you know what? Although I like all sorts of positions and acts in partnered sex, I still prefer to masturbate the same old way: using the same type of vibrator, lying in the same position. I like the reliability and the ease and the intensity. The way I masturbate seems to have no effect on the way I enjoy or orgasm during partnered sex. It would be interesting to hear from some men who always masturbate using the death grip, yet can come by different sensations during partnered sex.

Bottom line: if it ain't broke, don't fix it; and if you're coming, it's not broken.

@F3 @61 I don't recall Dan ever recommending to a guy with "death grip" that he should completely stop stimulating his penis and instead rely on prostate orgasms or maybe some type of indirect dick stimulation. This is the equivalent of what you'e suggesting here if you think LW's wife should be encouraged to stop directly stimulating her clit.

@63 uhhhhh

DonnyKlicious @68

"I didn’t pressure her, I just said 'Tell you what, give me 5 minutes and if you really don’t like it I’ll stop.'”

FYI - that's pressure, given that she had just said: "I really don't like that."

"We did it a couple more times that night with the same results and it’s one of my favorite memories"

Did she see you again?

@68 and 72: DonnyKlicious, I'd call it coercion. It isn't justified by the fact that she orgasmed.
She told you that she didn't want you to touch her body in a particular way; you pushed her in a way that she could either accede to or turn into a big disagreement, so she agreed.
It's not unheard of for women to orgasm as they are raped. It's still rape.

I know this is one of your favorite memories, and it's hard to consciously choose your "favorite" memories, but I'd suggest you focus more on those times when you had fully affirmative, enthusiastic consent for whatever you did.

There's an equal amount of evidence that death grip is as harmful to the prospect of orgasming with a partner as a vibrator is.

I dunno, peeps.

As a 17-year-old I didn't like oral. It didn't do much for me. Now I love it, and it's the main way I orgasm. That absolutely had to do with experiencing partners who did it differently, and partners who kept at it and changed things up over time; what a loss it would be for me if I had insisted they 100% respect my "I don't really like getting oral."

(Note that, in my experience, quality of oral received is not perfectly correlated with enjoyment/eagerness of guy giving oral--I met plenty of guys who "love giving oral" who still didn't do anything for me.)

And although I didn't have this particular issue, it's also (I believe) common for younger women to internalize a sort of "vulvas are dirty" attitude that will cause them to say they don't like oral--and to really not like it!--because they are uncomfortable about a partner getting right up close like that. Do we respect that attitude?

Some people, like EricaP, like what they like and don't like what they don't like. And some people aren't sure. And some people are sure and change their minds. It's pretty tricky to tell which is which. Given that DonnyK was there and we weren't, I'm inclined to believe him when he says she changed her mind. "Coercion" is a loaded word. To me it feels more like when I'm driving my friend somewhere, and they ask me to stop and let them run a quick errand, which I don't want to do--but I do, because what the hell, it's my friend and it's quick. Does the fact I didn't want to mean they coerced me? No force, no threats. That's not coercion, that's mild pressure at most.

Again, I dunno. I think it's great that we're all aiming for complete and total enthusiastic consent all the time these days, but there are vast fields of sexual ground which that does not cover even in cases where a happy consenting sexual relationship has already been established. I wouldn't want to snap my fingers and magically disappear all that sex; a lot of it turns out great. I think (again, in established relationships) it's okay to push people a bit; and okay, in retrospect, to give them the benefit of the doubt.

As a sexual newbie I couldn't orgasm (with anyone or alone) and didn't even know what to tell people to try (although I tried lots of things, and so did they). Then I got a vibrator and learned to masturbate with it, and incorporated it into my partnered sex life. That worked for something like ten years, during which time I never had an orgasm any other way. Then one year I gave up my vibe for Lent--I sort of had a feeling it was messing with me--and decided to just enjoy fun, playful, orgasm-free sex for a while, if that's how it went. A month in I had my first orgasm from receiving oral. Shortly thereafter I was able to have an orgasm from masturbation with just fingers, no vibe.

To my mind, I was in a "death grip" equivalent space with my vibrator, and I'm glad I took a break and retrained my clit. I still use the vibe but I do so less frequently, mixing it up with other orgasms.

@nocute, your post makes me wonder if I might move into the magic 30% sometime, too!

@55 dcp123: ...I'll be in my bunk.

ciods @75

I think people should be believed when they give soft 'no's. It's fine to encourage them to reconsider about a favorite activity, but I recommend waiting & discussing it with clothes on, to see if they still sound reluctant or more open to experimentation.

"It's pretty tricky to tell which is which"

That's a little rapey. The guy who held me down to force oral on me probably thought I'd end up liking it. Doesn't mean he was right to disregard my 'no's.

About my "it's pretty tricky to tell which is which": that's been true, for me, about my own desires. I imagine it's therefore even trickier for a partner. I feel like there's a world of difference between holding someone down while they say "no" and saying, "How about giving this five minutes and letting me know what you think?" But maybe there isn't, really; maybe that's just how I'm picturing the two. I don't think this stuff is clear.

I agree that waiting and discussing later with clothes on is a good idea, but it feels, again, to me, like a very adult idea; I'm not sure 17-year-old me would have thought of that, or been able to express desires clearly if someone else had suggested it. I had too little data at the time for any clarity on my desires.

Any thoughts on how we can reconcile enthusiastic consent with something like my third paragraph @75?

Give me a break! There was no coercion, just two young kids learning about sex, often fumbling around, often wrong about what we assumed was supposed to, or not supposed to happen. I said “Let’s give this a try” and she said, “OK” and it all worked out great. People are so fucking SENSITIVE now! OMG! Joe Biden put his hand on someone’s shoulder! Al Franken took a photo of someone on a USO tour! PERSPECTIVE, people, PERSPECTIVE! Coercion is when you PRESSURE someone unreasonably, not when you make a suggestion. And, Erica@72, no I never saw her again. She was in town for a wedding and then went back to college 120 miles away, and that was in the days of long-distance charges and no internet.

...and nocute@73... “but I'd suggest you focus more on those times when you had fully affirmative, enthusiastic consent...”
Well, she DID say, “Oh. My. God. Where did you learn how to DO that?!” and, “Can we do that again right now?!” And then we did it a third time the next morning, and parted with a “That was great! I really had fun.” I’m pretty sure she was OK with it all.

The first version @57 sounded like she was much younger than him (since she was "college age and had just never had it done well," while he had the experience to know he could give oral well).

The updates @80-@81 say they were both young and that she asked to do it again, so that's a different situation.

As you say @79, ciods, 17 year olds don't generally have adult communication skills, and shit happens.

But there's a difference between
A. "shit happens when folks are young; glad it turned out well (PS, you were lucky)", and

B. "It's fine to pressure people who sound unenthusiastic about a particular sex act."

Congratulations, NoCute @69!
I agree with you that there should be more acceptance, among all genders, that there's no wrong way to come. I do recall two letters where it was the girlfriend who was dismayed that her boyfriend couldn't come from intercourse; one of them kept asking her to "squeeze" which she found a buzz kill. If a guy fucks you til you're satisfied then jacks onto your tits, I call that successful sex. If HE is bothered, retraining might be the answer. I admit I've taken Dan's word on this, not having a penis myself.

Ciods @75: I agree with your analysis of young women perhaps just being too self-conscious to enjoy oral, or not enjoying it due to young and inept (even if enthusiastic) partners. It sounds like Donny applied a gentle nudge; his story sounds nothing like EricaP's experience of being held down while someone overrode repeated no's. It sounds like a classic example of an effort to be GGG for a partner's sake that worked out well for everyone involved.

Sporty, back to the blowjob issue: If you're encountering far fewer women than is typical who like to give you head, either you are choosing the wrong women, or perhaps it's you who's unpleasant to give head to. Do you push their heads down or thrust into their throats, porn style? Don't do that. Unless she enjoys it, which you should endeavour to find out by asking her verbally rather than trying it. "Doesn't like being face-fucked" and "doesn't like giving head" aren't the same thing; let HER be in control of the blowjob and she may like it a lot more. Words of encouragement and gentle suggestions are appreciated. Also, you may be too well-endowed, which can cause lockjaw, or not well-endowed, which can be a turnoff. Particularly if your dick is on the short side, trimming those pubes can make for a more enjoyable experience. Lastly, do you expect women to suck you to completion? That can feel like a chore. When you say women don't enjoy oral, do you mean standalone blowjobs or blowjobs-as-foreplay? These are quite different. If you're happy to receive head in a way and for a period of time she finds comfortable, I guarantee you'll get more, and more enthusiastic, head.

@83 I love to grab a handful of hair and make a woman do as I please, but I'm sure to ask first - I'm a gentleman, the older I get the more I realize that's true. If anything, I'm too nice. I think I meet a wider cross section of Americans than most slog people, although come to think of it, it probably matters that I'm regularly attracted to not straight women... Although I think it's the straight girls who are less likely to want to perform oral. Also I'll get to your question on the other thread but its literally homework ;p

BiDanFan @83: I think GGG is about one person agreeing to the other one's desires and it's great when it leads to the discovery of a new shared preference (as in DonnyKlicious's story).

I see a difference between "please let me give you oral; I love it" and "let me give you oral; I know you'll love it (even though you say you don't)."

I see the second as disrespectful to a person's right to decide what they like themselves.

@DonnyKlicious: I apologize; in your original comment I, too, thought you were significantly older than the woman and took a "you don't know what's good for you, but I do" approach. I'm glad it worked out well and that hopefully that woman has gone on to enjoy a lot of good oral sex. I also think that young women are much more squeamish about their own bodies, having been taught in a thousand ways that their vulvas are smelly and somewhat nasty. Fwiw, I didn't consider what you did assault, but a more complete description of the proceedings would have made it seem more consensual to me.

I hope the wife found a partner who isn't an asshole some time in the last 14 years.