Savage Love Jun 11, 2019 at 4:00 pm

Shop Around

Joe Newton



RQS - So, you're essentially advocating for straight people to boycott gay-run businesses out of ... respect?! FFS you're the one giving us libs a bad name.


I agree that RQS was a little off base, but do we really want to attack allies? A gentle lesson on “etiquette” seems more appropriate. Thank you for caring RQS, but lighten up, we actually like straight allies in our businesses.👍


"in reality, pushing sex workers out of online spaces (where they could more effectively screen clients, share safety tips with each other, and organize politically) made sex work more dangerous, not less, and has led to more sex trafficking, not less."



@3 The proof is in the pudding.


I can testify from personal experience that the staff of Mr. S Leather seems very happy to get - and welcoming of - straight customers. When I was there, although their target market is clearly gay men, they even had a (small) section apparently devoted to both the smaller-sized restraints that work on women and the lower-quality stuff straight folks tend to buy as novelties or when we're not sure how much we're into the whole BD/SM thing.

The people who worked there were clearly aware of my atypical sexuality and were - unnecessarily - expressed concern about my comfort around gay PDAs. They also helped me find stuff sized for tiny female wrists and seemed interested in ensuring that I got something that my wife and I would have fun playing with.

Added bonus: I don't watch gay porn and being there with gay male porn going on the displays gave me an opportunity to confirm that videos of two guys happily fucking the crap out of each other didn't make me even a tiny bit uncomfortable.

I got the strong impression that they liked it that straight people feel comfortable coming in there and that they were happy to help me find something appropriate. In return, I was very happy to give them my business and buy some mid-range quality restraints from people who know restraints well. Boycotting them would suck.

On the other hand, I hope that a tour bus full of straight folks coming in to gawp at them and take pictures like they were circus animals would get kicked out of the store immediately. A couple showing up to shop for something they want at a store than carries good quality merchandise is not the equivalent of that tour bus or the large crowds of sometimes hostile straight people who started showing up in the Castro for Halloween many years ago. Don't be one of those assholes and most gay businesses will be happy to see you.


I'll repeat what I've posted various times in cases similar to the one described by LW1. You need a FWB. The friend part is key here, someone you trust and who cares about you. You can be open with him and he will respect your boundaries while also helping you figure out what you like by slightly pushing those boundaries.

Also, a few weeks back someone posted the craigslist update. I already forgot the name of that site, but that could be a place to start if you don't have a friend who could become a FWB.

While I could see LW2 addressing this issue if there were a bunch of straight couples on a caravan hitting up the gay bars in SF like they were on some kind of sightseeing tour, but in this instance the letter seems overblown. As Dan said, there are bigger issues that should occupy your time.


@3 rolando74
Once upon a thread here I got little satisfaction suggesting that rolando74 could waste his own damn time researching proof of precisely this same obvious thing.

I see
that rolando74 specializes in this specific genre of crap. It's like he monitors for the phrase "sex work".

For example in the penultimate thread he detracted from, someone (who I know nothing of since I stick to SavageLove, but whose observation is relevant here) said

"The record shows consistently that you have deep seated sexual issues with other adults sexual choices and despise sex workers."

Please do drop in again soon rolando. Not!


@2 Bless your heart. I've watched too much Golden Girls in my day. So many times I've wished we could all have our own Sophia to give us a verbal bitch-slap whenever we say some dumb shit.


I know I have said this before, but after reading RQS's letter and Dan's spot on response, I can't help but wonder how utopian a world we would have had if Fred Jackass Trump had had a vasectomy and MaryAnn Cloud Trump had gotten an abortion. Or better yet, if the senior Trumps had been born sterile with no hope of procreation.


I have to disagree with @Dan's advice to SMASH. It is not clear why a sex worker would necessarily make a better partner to a woman who has experienced sexual abuse, has difficulty talking about what she wants sexually, or disassociates during sex. As SMASH writes, she presumes "a male sex worker would be more open, sex-positive, and skilled." Since males sex workers primarily make their living having sex with men, SMASH should not be so sure that a sex worker would necessarily have developed special skills with women, and a sex worker is not going to be able to address her more fundamental issues. Who wants to pay a few hundred dollars to be psychologically disassociated from an act that you want to be pleasurable?

I think her first stop is speaking with a therapist who can help her address the aftermath of her abuse, including disassociating during sex. Hopefully, she can also use her therapist to gain confidence and comfort explaining to a sex partner what she does and does not want during sex. Then, I would recommend a dating site in which she can be clear about what she is seeking. One benefit for SMASH looking online is that she may feel more comfortable putting into written words what she wants from this person. And as much as SMASH wants sex now, I think taking a bit to time finding a FWB will be worth the investment.


As to LW1, I go back to my prior musings that there is a business opportunity for anonymous/private/discreet het female seekers of hookups with vetted safe men. Yes, male sex workers would be the best answer, and Dan plus guest give good advice, but fact remains that a) sex work is illegal in loads of places- though it shouldnt be, and b) there are plenty of conscientious men willing to engage in very specific and female-led sexual encounters for free, especially if the women involved are just looking for something physical. The question is how to facilitate their meetings, and I think this is an untapped market. When my bff and I drink together, we often design 'the perfect brothel' for women customers (which would be quite different from the male model) - someone younger and smarter just needs to bring it into the online age. Female sex workers are likely the best to design such a thing. It would require both a vetting system and a safe comfortable discreet locale. A girl can dream.


Leaving aside the absolute asshattery that is lw #2, I have to say that as a straight woman who occasionally enjoys light bondage and BDSM, I have had nothing but positive experiences at Mr. S. The staff is always helpful and professional, friendly, if reserved. And one thing I like about it as opposed to those women-owned cooperatives where I do like to buy vibrators, lube, books, etc, it takes its bondage inventory SERIOUSLY. Far too much silly froofy feathery, sort-of-giggly merchandise has made its way into those otherwise wonderful stores (wonderful because there's nothing seamy or cheap or shame-soaked about those friendly, brightly-lit, women-owned stores). Mr. S isn't being silly. This is hard-core without being intimidating. You feel like you're really there for some dirty purpose.


SMASH: I agree with Surfrat @6. There are many men out there with the patience and understanding to treat you the way you want to be treated in bed without being paid for it. Once again I will bang the drum for OKCupid. As weird as this sounds, hide your profile from straight people. You will thereby eliminate 98% of the creepy men. (Sure, you'll eliminate many nice ones as well, but your history of trauma justifies throwing the baby out with the bathwater, at least for now.) Send some messages to nice bisexual and/or polyamorous boys. A poly guy will have the advantage of not being sexually frustrated and happy, or at least happier, to go at your pace. Do not give into any pressure to meet straightaway. Be up front about your situation and exchange a lot of detailed messages. Send him porn links to what you'd like. When you feel comfortable, meet in person for a coffee date that specifically will end after the coffee. If he makes you feel safe, meet for sex. Do not have more than one drink. Do not let him have more than one drink. Drunk sex is not in-control sex, and in-control sex with lots of clearly spoken and understood communication is what you need here. There are men who aren't jerks, who won't give you a hard time if you need to stop partway through. (This is why a man who can give you a hug, say don't worry about it, and go home and fuck his wife or girlfriend is a good choice.)

Also, remember that unlike in porn, real-life sex is not always amazing. Sometimes you have to shag some frogs to find your prince. Sex that goes wrong is not the end of the world. Good luck, SMASH.

SNEAKS: Yes, the question was risky, which is why he asked it (a) in a public space and (b) after hinty preambles. Good on you for being willing to help this guy out.

RQS, isn't giving gay-owned businesses money a great way for straight people to be allies to the LGBTQ community? Thanks for your concern, but there are real battles for you to fight.


Graffik @2: Indeed, let's not beat RQS up! They may be conflating what this couple did with a straight couple going to a lesbian club to perv. These are two different things. RQS, part of being a good ally is doing what you just did -- ask an actual gay person what's acceptable and what isn't. Hope RQS wrote Dan before/instead of blasting their friends for "invading" queer space.

Sublime @11: Good point about SMASH's assumptions about male sex workers potentially being off base. At one point Dan mentioned sexual surrogates, this might be a better route for SMASH.

EmmaLiz @12: A sort of Bumble with Yelp reviews. I like it.


Oops, accidental bi erasure @15. A straight male/bi female couple should also not go to lesbian clubs to perv.


At the end of the day, a customer is a customer. You got some weird hang ups, RQS.


I can see that merely shopping in a store isn't invading queer space, but aren't there other queer spaces it would be inappropriate to invade? I think of gay bars. I used to enjoy them when I was in college. 40 years ago it was a way for me to show straight support, to dance without being hit on. I don't think any of the guys paid me much attention, and the establishment made a tad of money from my drinks. The years go by, and I'd never suggest straight women do that now. Now, I can imagine that in no time the gay bar would become a straight one. First the straight women, then the straight men would follow. Though I suppose with online resources for people to meet now and a general lessening of homophobia, the whole concept of a gay bar is less important.


Fichu @18: Right you are. I remember a few years back, I went with a bi male friend to a gay club that drew a mixed-gender crowd. Two (separate) men hit on me. One was just being sleazy, he had obviously gone in the hopes of preying on the straight female wing-women after their gay male friends had pulled. The other was part of a group of what I assumed were gay men who included me on the dance floor, as my friend didn't dance. I started to get the idea that all was not what it appeared when one was paying far more attention to me than a random friendly gay man would have. His friend accused me of teasing him! WTF dude, if you're looking to pull women maybe go where the women aren't also looking to pull women? Just a thought.
My friend, I'm happy to report, also had men hitting on him. So there is that.

The gay bar may be less important for meeting potential partners, but it's still important in (theoretically) having a safe space to dance and party with like-minded folks, even if you are already partnered. Straight people can go out clubbing with their partners, LGBT folks should be able to as well!


Agreed with nocutename @13 about gay shops. When I bought an anal douche thingy (to prevent santorum) a few years ago I went to a gay sex shop, and felt very much at ease there. I dont want to go to a women-owned and -oriented shop, being a "dirty old man" I would feel quite out of place there. And most of the hetero sex shops have an unpleasant sleazy and exploitative vibe about them (though there are exceptions).


@12 EmmaLiz +1. Would you please share a few more details here as to what you and your friend have sketched out as an ideal woman-customer-centric brothel / online experience to promote safety, comfort, and also treat the sex workers with dignity and agency?

And what would be ideal from the sex worker's perspective?

I thought, a male for male site taken down by ICE, was a sex-worker rights positive prototype: sex workers advertised direct (no pimps), low cost if you weren't a "featured" ad (no exploitive fees), and while a visual heavy site, text for the sex worker to be clear about what THEY were into / what their limits were / agency for the sex worker.

And better than Twitter, as rentboy let sex workers be clear about what they were offering, how much they were charging, and what their limits were.

But clearly the format appealed to male customers: mostly pics and cock size stats.


SMASH: I agree with surfrat@6, SublimeAfterglow@11, and BiDanFan@14. Follow BiDanFan's advice.


Fuck off RQS, you're a substantial part of why trump won

Thanks for posting this letter Dan. This mindset is unfortunately very prevalent currently, but using your platform to draw attention to just how ridiculous this line sounds is a welcome step in defanging this shoddy mindless garbage. I remember friends having a conversation about whether or not it was appropriate for men to attend the inaugural Women's March or if it would be better for them to stay home. What a load of crap.



I can't quite wrap my brain around selling someone a pair of my old shoes when I'm really done with them, but I can see just giving them to the dude. Is that wierd?


@23 I'm right there with you.... It would be way easier to just give them away but selling them seems weird.


@3 There's a great episode of Reply All that provides some great information. And Reply All is the best, enjoy!


coolie @23, buying them may be part of his kink, and in any case, taking a twenty from him treats him as an equal rather than an object of pity.

BiDanFan @14, I agree bisexual men are likely to have dealt with a lot of their issues and may be better partners in bed. I'm not sure polyamorous/non-monogamous is an equivalent signal. Those men may be single or in a sexless marriage and just as pushy as a monogamous man (or more so, if they are using non-monogamy to identify women they view as undemanding).

I do think your general advice is sound. On OK Cupid, she will probably benefit by paying for premium access and treating this as a serious project. AdultFriendFinder might also work.

"Do not let him have more than one drink." -- yes, I would just clarify that the way to enforce this is by stating the boundary before the date and going home early if he doesn't listen to a gentle reminder.


The advice to SMASH is poor. This isn't an occasion to climb an anti-SESTA soapbox. (Sublime's advice @11 is little better for the opposite reason: psychologising, when she's said that she's interested in going to a sex worker). The first paragraph should have been 'Twitter, and maybe seek a recommendation from a female sex worker'.

As I read it, part of what good sex would be for SMASH is letting the man expertly take the lead--her getting smashed, getting fucked. She is hesitant about speaking up to direct the sex; and possibly doing so would make it less hot for her. I think good advice would try to give her some way of setting boundaries, without losing the sense that she's agreeably or excitingly passive when it comes to the actual act. Maybe she could date, find someone she's comfortable with, establish they're going to have sex, then set down guidelines, as far as they're able, in a distant way, say by email or texting (e.g. ''mmm' will mean yes; don't stick your dick in until I'm wet'). Speaking generally, it is good to speak up for yourself this way. The sex tends to be better, not worse. But SMASH may need baby steps in learning to do this. She may always like the fantasy-scenario of the man acting irresistibly and masterfully. It doesn't mean putting herself in a situation where she loses control (in a bad way) or is liable to be exploited.


@23. coolie. He offered to buy them. Spending money may be part of the kink. It's a common kink. If SNEAKS wants to make it hotter for him, he could say 'they're getting sweatier all the time'. But stop if it seems to be a turn-off. Dan's and Bi's advice was perfect.

@14. Bi. Let SMASH go to a sex worker if she wants. She seems to want sex, not emotional intimacy. She may have a sense that with her relationship history, she will choose an emotional or quasi-romantic partner badly, and things will get over-complicated or go wrong. But broadly I'd think your advice similar to mine; and I agree with the fuckbuddy and poly/bi/queer angles.


@23. delta. My hope is that EmmaLiz's startup will be preempted by socialized medicine. Ha ha ha ha ha--a rat's chance in hell.


SMASH needs to find Fred Garvin - male prostitute.


@14 BiDanFan... LW , this is some great advice!


I think it's possible that RQS is feeling his, her, their way towards coming out as queer. Playing the queer aristocracy card or pulling the string to get a quote from the leather store manager was maybe a superfluous exercise of privilege. On the other hand, quite possibly the manager would have fielded a question from a potential straight customer as to whether they were welcome.


As the guy who was pissed that Dan was being too kind to fools in his response to the response top the Gay Israel caller, let me just say that the RQS letter was great. There is a huge, and obvious, difference between waltzing into a gay bar and expecting to be the center of attention because it's your batchelorette and you are drunk as fuck straight girl who likes Drag Race and what is going on here. The purpose of these spaces is not to be exclusionary and give tumblr dicks ammunition to tear each other apart with, most of them are businesses who want peoples money, anyones money, to keep the lights on.


Oh, man. Mr. S is a wonderful store and they have never been anything but welcoming to me and other “off target” folks. I don’t want to pile on LW2, but just wanted to highlight what a great place this is.


Holy Crap, people;
RQS is fake, mocking current Leftist "sensibilities".
Gawd, you folks are certainly earnest, if not very bright...


Taking Bachellorette tours of gay bars is weird and rude. Buying products from a gay owned establishment is helpful to their bottom line. No pun intended.


GYM SHOES -- Dan, Dan, Dan. If the perv wants the shoes that bad, he'll pay more than any $20. I'd have said "For $100 you can have them right now." You liberal /sorts have no concept of capitalism.

LOOKING FOR THE GOOD D -- I don't understand why you can't just find Dick on Tindr. Be very explicit about what you're looking for, make sure and initially meet in a public place, and go for it. "40yo single mother seeking a very talented sex partner. I don't want it rough, but I want it good. If you don't know the difference, don't waste our time."


100% agree with @14 and will personally attest to bisexual guys being fantastic lovers. Something about having been on the receiving end makes them more empathetic and aware, in my informed opinion, and they seem to take a special delight in the female form. Also agree that a poly guy in a comfortable, secure primary relationship could work well. Frankly, a sex worker seems like the most complicated and difficult option.

I'm basically the same demographic as LW1, in the same dating situation. I bounce back and forth between Bumble and Tinder, with frequent breaks from both in between. Either I get fed up, or I find a suitable guy for something between booty call and FWB. Don't expect instant results, do expect a lot of games - no matter what online platform you're using. Imagine yourself kissing him before you swipe right. Be honest and direct, meet as soon as possible or just unmatch. Apply the "fuck yes or no" rule whenever in doubt.

On an even more personal note... not sure if you're aware, LW, but "older" ladies with high libidos who know what they want and aren't afraid to ask for it are in kinda high demand. I only date younger guys; they're eager to please, they can put you down in one go or go all night, and they're verrry thorough. Don't be too wary of the "player" type; they're the ones with the experience you need. They don't have to be "boyfriend material" but do be aware a lot of them aren't exactly single. Define your boundaries and stick to them. If he can't respect them, there's a dozen like him waiting for a chance. Happy hunting!


@37 yes! $20 is way too cheap. I also agree on the dating advice. So succinct!


Is there such a thing as straight male sex workers who get paid to have sex with women? That seems more like a Hollywood fantasy than something any men are actually earning a living doing.


tim browne @37 - just because a man says he understands what you want and can deliver does not mean the odds of that happening are very high.

I suggest the LW spend enough time with the guy in public that she can see what happens when she says no to something. Does he take it in stride? Great. But if he keeps pushing or gets angry or cold, then you've learned that he doesn't like being disappointed.


I hadn't thought of the purchase of the shoes as part of the kink. That is an interesting twist.


@42 coolie: I was wondering if the offer of the worn in shoe purchase could be linked to a foot fetish, a common kink.


SMASH: Go on the Tinder dates. Pretend they're sex workers. Heck, buy the drinks if that makes it easier for you. It may take SOME filtering, but it's not hard to find a guy who 1) wants to smash on the first date 2) is reasonably attractive and 3) won't hurt you. There are thousands of these guys floating around every city.

RQS - unless you want to go back to drinking from the coloreds-only fountains, i suggest you erase the words "our space" from your vocabulary. It certainly doesn't belong to you of all people, you're just some rando fuckface. If you want a private place for only queer people, you don't get to do it in a storefront. This is settled law.


@37, @39 - agree, sneaker price should be the cost of a replacement (new) pair of shoes + markup for the "services rendered".

@29 maybe we'll see some sex-positive sex worker apps from some European countries that have socialized medicine already, and legalized sex work already?



Everyone who can should sell their shoes and underwear to the perviest folks they can find. It's probably the lowest-risk sex work around. Basically free money. Can't afford that $200/mo crossfit membership? You can if you can sell 1 pair of inexpensive panties a week. Shoes might be a smaller market, but heck it, why not?


Ms Fan - May we take it that you only pursued SS connections in that venue? If so, we seem in danger of being in agreement again.


If this were a game of Mousetrap, Mr Savage might be trying to push RQS into hating gays, joining the Republican party in a righteous huff, becoming the campaign manager for the Trump re-election, and then completely bungling it.

As for the store, most of us who go into commerce have to be pleased to have straight customers as well. It depresses me, though, that a gay-owned, gay-operated, gay-targeted store would be so concerned for a straight-presenting customer's comfort level around ordinary SS behavior. I've already heard a couple of references to our constant self-censorship today, and this would seem to be right up there.


re: SNEAKS I'd sell it for at least $100. Couple factors at play that it seems folks are disregarding:
1. The market value of an item is determined based upon what a buyer is willing to pay, not an 'objective' value of the item (which in this case would be $0 as it would otherwise have been thrown out).
2. The 'ick' factor that the seller will need to withstand as a result of this transaction. Not simply the knowledge that some perv is getting off on his gym shoe but having to see said perv on a very frequent basis at his gym. This certainly merits much greater value than the $20 value Dan suggested, let alone free as others on this thread have..


"It depresses me, though, that a gay-owned, gay-operated, gay-targeted store would be so concerned for a straight-presenting customer's comfort level around ordinary SS behavior."

(Hi Venn!)
I think I read/remember the expressions of concern you're responding to/depressed about (apologies for being too busy to re-read the thread). My take, specifically /because/ it sounded odd to me too, was that it was more about assessing what kind of person the customer was than about actual concern about whether the customer was a messed up straight person who can't deal with healthy SS behavior. In other words, I'm hoping that the overly polite words were underlaid by healthy assertiveness instead of obsequiousness.


I don't understand why anyone would want to say (on reflection) to SMASH something like 'you don't need a sex worker; instead find a FWB'. Is this because some people are in her target group (understanding and sexually potent straight men) and would like to think that they, or their imaginary counterparts or peer group, could do the job? It is SMASH's choice whether she goes for a sex worker or not. She may associate dating with emotional or romantic intimacy and want to separate learning to have great sex, for her, from emotional complications. She may doubt her ability to make wise decisions in a not-strictly-transactional context (well, she does) or fear she would involuntarily replay less-than-optimal scenarios. She wants to have sex. She wants to get her rocks off. She doesn't, for now, want to learn how to do relationships better. We should respect her finding her own course and having her own timetable.

@46. Sportlandia. I couldn't sell my underwear for psychological reasons. It would mean that my gender identity is someone else's titivating kink and it's much more than that to me. Re your @44, the issue isn't whether there are many guys of that sort available, but with what she wants.


@8, I'm not ashamed of my post history. I maintain that Dan's statement is unproven.


Here's the problem with paying to fuck "a man who knows what he's doing." No matter where you find him, no matter what you pay, no matter how much experience he has and how much he wants to please, the definition of what makes a good sexual experience is all over the map. He could be kind and sensitive when she needs him to take the lead more. He could be conventionally good looking when she wants a different type. He could be all about communication when she thinks he talks too much.

If my own experience is any help-- The kindest most sensitive guys were sometimes the most disappointing. They seemed to be all talk and no sex, like they were afraid they were going to hurt me. Which isn't to say I wanted to be roughed up, but I needed some initiative. Then there were the studs who seemed to pull everything out of a bag of tricks. To this day, when I think of the best sexual experiences with the guys I hit it off with the best, I have no idea how I'd describe what I wanted ahead of time. Chemistry is such a cliche, but that's what you're going for.

I've never paid for sex, but I do know that if I did pay for it, and if I did get an experience like some of the sex I've had with guys I thought would be great, I'd be doubly disappointed. Make that disappointed to the point of bitter and angry and worse off than before.

I like the suggestions in 6 and 14. I like the friends-with-benefits and poly ideas.


Well this is something we talk about when we are horny and no men available though my bff is bi and has entirely different ideas about how a female-female brothel would work. In any case, we are old enough that we don't think of it as just being online but also as a physical place. Here's a big difference- think of porn/sex toy shops / sex clubs that are obviously geared just to men vs the ones that are geared more to women or both. The ones for guys are usually darker and seedier, ever notice how in topless bars there's often sort of dark and seedy and joyless quality to it- often dancers up there with no one paying any attention to them while all the action happens in back rooms / lap dances, etc? Contrast with a male strip club where it's all well lit and screaming middle aged housewives and people at bacherlotte parties? So in my horniest of times, I think a brothel for women would have a well lit and comfy and clean lounge where you can have a drink and maybe even get a massage or manicure or something meanwhile you could say what it is you are looking for, then a private clean and safe room where you could go to get it. Now I know this sounds silly, but if you've spent any time in a third world resort town, then you'll see that this is what horny wealthy older women do when they have the opportunity to do it- the beaches of the developing world are full of rich housewives and vacationing professional women who find themselves a young man for a season, keep him in a resort, get pampered, and leave him with some money. So there is a market for this. The question is how to move it from the realm of sugar mama and into the realm of more short-term encounters.

Back in the more practical world though, I think what would work is some sort of online network (think how air bnb works) where men could be vetted and rated and advertise themselves- the guys would be in control of their own profiles of course. And women could discreetly and anonymously contact them- there would have to be some guarantee of discretion (that's why wealthy women go overseas). Or women could create a general (but still anonymous) description of what it is they are looking for and guys from this pool of vetted men could respond. Then some communication back and forth before meeting. The trick (as with ladies' nights and swingers clubs) is to control the number of men available- otherwise it just becomes every other dating/hookup app online. Then the final element is providing a safe and vetted place for the encounter to take place. Most women who hook up casually have a system with their buddies- like I used to text my bff the address where I was going and (if necessary) the license plate of the dude's car- and I'd be sure to tell him that I was doing that so that he knew that if he killed me, he'd be found out quick. So it would be cool to have some sort of online system where the location is vetted and logged. I think women would pay for a service like this- not most women but enough of a minority for it to be profitable. I think there are enough guys who would do it, and I think it would be good for the guys too- protection for them against assault or accusations and some control of their work environment since they would have final say in accepting clients, etc. Women sex workers are probably the best to consult for a biz like this b/c they've had to deal with most of these issues already, but also male sex workers have/do as well- so I probably should have just said sex workers generally, not just women. I know also that this is unlikely to exist in reality for a million reasons.


Women probably aren't going to pay for sex. Ever- for obvious reasons (simply supply and demand). But a small number of women will pay for other services/luxuries: safety, youth, specific experiences, the freedom to not have to worry about emotional/material entanglements w/the man, creature comforts (the sex as a part of the experience, not the whole), and - by far the most important IMO- discretion.


If the midwestern bible thumpers have to bake cakes for gays, then the left coast gays have to sell lightweight restraints to the straights. It seems only fair.


While SMASH would be best served by a FWB, she doesn't sound like someone who really has the dating skills to comfortably vet one. "Not dated or hooked up with anyone in years" and "only two sexual partners" does not sound like someone who has really honed their dating skills, and "single mother" will limit how much free time she can devote to brushing up her skills.

If someone has pointers to help her get up to speed, better calibrate her creepdar so she doesn't fall for more common schemes, and have a better idea how to express what she wants when she herself isn't 100% sure, those would be useful. Telling her to just find a FWB sounds like telling her to run before she's really mastered crawling.


Good comment, ChiTodd. My first pointer for her would be to stop watching porn while she self pleasures. Use her own mind to create the sort of man she wants. This will calm her down and shift how she experiences her sexuality.
I think as SA said above, therapy is in order here. Any form of sexual abuse needs to be fully dealt with, otherwise it can lead to, as the LW knows, a sex life which is troubled.
I’ve often had fantasies where I’m at a brothel for women, EL. Like yours, a bar cum lounge space, very clean and luxurious. Young men in mine mostly, very attentive and virile.


What if the LW joined fetlife, and read thru profiles in her area. Find men who express some empathy for others in their profile and comments they make to others. Then message one of them to say hi. Also go to a local munch and meet people in the flesh.
Fan raves about OK Cupid, so check that out. And trust her own responses. This is where therapy would help her develop a trust in her own responses. Even a sexual abuse support group could be very beneficial, if the focus is on healing and not wallowing in the past.
Yes, if you live in Australia or other countries which have legitimised sex work. Maybe take a holiday? The panic of being caught wouldn’t help the LW, if she lives in the US, not with her sexual abuse history.
Legitimate and uncoerced sex workers are necessary members in any modern culture.
Get real USA.


EricaP @26: Agree completely with your analysis of why SNEAK should accept payment. If it makes him feel weird, bonus, he can donate it to an LGBT charity.

I suggested bi men not because they offer any particular advantage from her perspective, but because women on dating apps get flooded by inappropriate messages, and I found this to not be the case one I hid my profile from straight people. If there were another way for her to avoid inappropriate messages, that would be great. Unfortunately, that's not my experience. Sure, poly men may be pushy -- I said less likely, not that they won't be. The extensive messages and initial chaste date should weed out pushy mono and poly men alike.

Harriet @27: Any man who doesn't understand "don't stick your dick in until I'm wet" without a specific verbal instruction to that effect should be ruled out up front. I agree communicating is good, and laying out one's code words before the sex can be helpful -- particularly as sentences are hard to form once one is in the throes of passion.

Harriet @28: I wasn't telling her she can't see a sex worker (as if I have that authority anyway!), I was merely proposing another alternative, which may be much easier to find.

Commie @35: Another one of your many aliases? Sorry; you may not know any lefties in real life, but it's not unheard of for them to want to be allies but go about it the wrong way.

Tim @37: It's easy to find dick on Tinder. It's not easy to find a man who will treat a woman he barely knows well.

Pales @38: Thank you, and +1 to your addenda! Bumble is a good suggestion for avoiding those inappropriate messages that could well put a skittish woman off men for ever.

EricaP @41: Another good suggestion.

Venn @47: Hoping is a better word than pursuing, but yes, I was exclusively hoping to meet women. Unfortunately, I had no luck even making flirtatious eye contact on this occasion.

Venn @48: Indeed. Insulting people whose hearts are in the right place is not going to win Democrats the election in 2020. Cut this person some slack and educate them kindly. We need more of them and fewer "Straight Pride" advocates.

Harriet @51: I am not a straight man. I was simply answering SMASH's question: "Any advice for a gal who wants to get fucked but is not sure how to make that happen in a safe-ish space?" Certainly she is free to look for sex workers too, but I don't think paying someone is the only, or even best, solution to her problem. My opinion which she is free to consider or reject. And I think you are the only one here conflating a regular fuck buddy with a boyfriend. Surely you've had both and know the difference?

EmmaLiz @54-55: So like a women-only day spa with happy endings. That sounds amazing to me! Funnily, two decades ago I had accepted to the idea that being middle aged would mean having to pay for hot young bodies. I'm pleasantly surprised I haven't needed to yet, but am prepared.

ChiTodd @57: See post @14.

Lava @58: You said "cum" ;)
One of my recurring fantasies is that I am a wealthy businesswoman, I get stranded in Amsterdam and decide to treat myself to a massage and stress relief from a hot young male sex worker. Paying him is part of the fantasy: he has to do whatever I say. Such power! And then, as the old joke goes, afterwards he goes away. No drama. I reckon this would be appealing for many.

Lava @59: A munch is a good suggestion, though SMASH does not say she wants kinky sex. She just wants to be "well and truly fucked" and I can envision her in situations where she has to say no to all the bells and whistles the kinky man she meets will be proposing.


Yes Fan, I used that word in the way it is intended to be used.


Oh, I thought she was looking for a Dom/s experience.


Mr Curious - The concern was cited by the straight customer who gave the store a glowing review in comment #5. I thought of your angle, but in the end considered it as largely just all part of the same thing. It did not help my mood that I saw the column shortly after hearing about the recent YouTube controversy written about by Ms Herzog and how many people on the left have blamed Mr Maza for what appears to be another wave of demonetization.


Mizz Liz - The opening paragraph of #54 reminded me of Shirley Valentine's arguing with her daughter about whether she's going to Greece on a "grab-a-granny fortnight". The scene, of course, culminated in Millandra's storming out of the house, and Shirley's opening the window to call out, "That's right; I'm going to Greece for the sex! Sex for breakfast, sex for dinner, sex for tea and sex for supper!" A passing tradesman comments, "Sounds like a marvelous diet, love!" to which Shirley replies, "It is, have you never heard of it? It's called the F Plan!"


Ms Fan - I'm reminded of something else I heard yesterday (and multiple times in the last few weeks) - that King James VI/I (of the high church version of the Protestant Bible) was bisexual. You're on the spot, as it were. Has there been some new evidence recently that he was genuinely attracted to women as well? Perhaps it's been known all along, and I just missed it. Or (as most of those who've mentioned this as if it were established fact present as pansexual) it could be a point of interpretation. Maybe we need a word like "bifunctional".


RQS may just have LGBTQ friends who are toxic activists and is trying in good faith to apply the observed ally-scolding that always comes out at Pride time to a personal example in their life.

We don’t need more of that shitty attitude from our allies; we get enough of it from our own activists. Thanks Dan and commenters for setting RQS . . . um . . . straight.


RMF @40: I share your doubt, but I have more faith that male sex workers who serve both male and female clients exist. I suspect that women would make up a minority of their client base.

Venn @65: I'm afraid I'm the wrong person to ask, as I'm not familiar with any claims regarding the sexual orientation of King James Whichever, nor prevailing attitudes at the time (ie a habit of rounding bisexuals down to gay). More LGBT history education is in order for me.


@53. Fichu. I think what you're saying is residually sex-worker-negative. Of course it's true that every person's understanding and experience of 'good sex for them' differs (some like forceful, some like gentle; what's right at one time will be wrong at another, and so on). But an experienced sex worker will be able to adapt to a a client's needs. You're saying something like, 'if I went to a steakhouse and they overdid the steak, I'd be doubly disappointed. So I'm sticking to home cooks--and their range of ovens'. SMASH knows what kind of sex she wants--the man manfully taking control. She can indicate this briefly to the professional, then repose a degree of confidence in them. SMASH also knows, maybe in part as a consequence of her abuse, that she doesn't have a good track record in negotiating hot sex with dates. Wouldn't it be sensible, as she suggests, to take the 'dating' side out of the equation, and concentrate on the sex?

@57. ChiTodd. Yes, exactly.

@60. Bi. I'm not equating a regular fuckbuddy with a bf. What they have in common with each other, but not with a sex worker, is that there is a degree of mutuality involved in negotiating sex in these cases, while paying a sex worker is simply a matter of buying services--of purchasing your own gratification, while of course not harming or violating the consent of the professional. SMASH has not dated recently and has had relatively few sex partners. Perhaps now's not the time for her to learn dating skills? She seemed to be clear what she was looking for--and wanted advice on how to find sex workers safely and discreetly?

As to what's 'easier'--won't that be different for different people? It's easier for me to drop my bike in at the repair shop than to change the back tire. Easier to make a phone call and risk a brush-off than buy a rimjob. SMASH said nothing about having financial concerns over buying pricy sex.

Her concerns were with her buying sex coming to light and her losing her job or reputation. Note that no one allayed her fears over this. No one said 'sex workers are professional--even if you don't decide to go ahead with it, for whatever reason, they won't spill the details of your talk'. She had no concerns with self-stigmatisation--did not say e.g. 'part of me feels I ought to be able to go out and get smashed without having to pay for it'. Despite this, there was a chorus of voices describing how she (or rather, in theory, how anyone) could go out and find sex without having to pay for it. The risk of this is that it encourages a self-stigmatisation in someone considering paying for sex. Actually, though, I liked all your advice and have no substantive disagreements with what you first said.

@60. Bi. A dry or getting-wet vagina will often lubricate under the touch of a stiff dick--no? This can be good sex, maybe especially good for a PIV quickie (?). But it's probably not a good idea for new sexual partners to have the guy penetrate the woman before she's wet. For sex with a new person, both partners (the man and woman here) should be physiologically completely into it.


Harriet @68: "SMASH also knows, maybe in part as a consequence of her abuse, that she doesn't have a good track record in negotiating hot sex with dates." She doesn't have ANY track record in negotiating hot sex with dates. She has had two partners, ever. She does not have enough experience with casual sex to rule it out as a source of good sex.

"Wouldn't it be sensible, as she suggests, to take the 'dating' side out of the equation, and concentrate on the sex?" Looking specifically for a FWB -IS- taking the dating side out of the equation and concentrating on the sex. Surely even with a sex worker, she'd want to meet him in person to vet him before the deed was performed? How is it different when it's someone who is not getting paid, so long as "FWB only" boundaries are established?

FWB vetting skills and dating skills are not the same thing. As you say, she is looking for someone to provide something specific -- not a partner. Fortunately she is the right gender that she can reasonably expect to find men willing to do it her way -- and it's not as if "her way" would be a big ask for most of the male population. Trust me on this -- she can go on apps, specify what she's looking for, and get it. Without paying.

"Actually, though, I liked all your advice and have no substantive disagreements with what you first said." OK then. I am unable to offer advice on how to vet sex workers and how to keep from finding out, since I have no experience in this field. I do have experience in finding fuck buddies online, so I shared it in case it might be helpful.

"A dry or getting-wet vagina will often lubricate under the touch of a stiff dick--no?" No. If a vagina is dry, inserting a dick into it will be painful. And if SMASH is already apprehensive, painful penetration will certainly not help. A dry or getting-wet vagina will often lubricate under the touch of a skilled tongue, some GENTLE fingers or a vibe, rubbing the head of the dick across the labia, or applying some lube. When in doubt, do not stick your dick in and hope for the best.


Harriet @68: "it's probably not a good idea for new sexual partners to have the guy penetrate the woman before she's wet. For sex with a new person, both partners (the man and woman here) should be physiologically completely into it." Exactly.


"A dry or getting-wet vagina will often lubricate under the touch of a stiff dick--no? This can be good sex, maybe especially good for a PIV quickie (?). "


In the first place, even if you are dealing with a young woman who lubricates more easily and quickly than an older one (an older woman in such a situation might never lubricate), why in the world would you put her through that when you could simply grab some lube and/or wait until she is ready? It's like you are saying "just put up with this discomfort for a while since eventually it will start feeling good". And even if you didn't have lube handy, you do have hands and tongues handy, so there is no reason to ram it in when lighter stimulation would do the trick.

In the second place, it's not just about lubrication- the lubrication happens as the vulva gets somewhat engorged which also makes the clitoris more prominent. If there is no lubrication, the other signs of arousal are also unlikely to be present, so you are talking about fucking a woman who is not yet aroused.

In the third place, how would this make a PIV quickie good for the woman? She's not yet aroused, she's less likely to get off from it, and it's going to hurt at least for a while at first if not the entire time.


I agree that the person asking to buy the used shoes would be much more appreciative and turned on if the price is substantially higher than the official $20 MSRP.

I find the ideas re brothels for women to be quite fascinating. Some women here expressed their interest, at least the fantasy side of it, and I think there’s plenty of interest on the other side as well.
I was always attracted to older women and at some point in my 20’s even toyed with the idea of pursuing it commercially. My idea about such interactions was just as described by BDF @ 60 only from the other end, being a sex object and getting paid to serve. (Not that I wouldn’t have done it for free.)
Those were pre-internet days and the small ads in the back pages of the free press never touched on that kind of interactions. There were rumors about a beach front hotel lobby in the big city where I used to live back then, though my one time visit to the place didn’t indicate any of that.

A year or so later I was in Japan and heard some rumors while staying with other gaijins, Japanese for foreigners. I called a number I was given and was invited to the friendly neighborhood yakuza branch for an interview. A low level yakuza dude met me in a street corner and took me into a building where a higher level guy sat behind a one way view wooden screen and asked some questions. I was told to call every day by 5 pm.

Very excited at first, but after two weeks of, “Ah….So sorry Mr.__ today no busi-ness’e ne,” I realized that was probably the Japanese polite way of avoiding saying “fuck off and go do something else.” Selling junk in train stations turned out to be much more profitable.
Sadly my sex work career never took off, but at least I have a story I can tell the grand kids. And nowadays I also get to be an older lady myself from time to time.


Does anyone watch the women's world cup games? Lava, Australia takes on Brazil soon. Hope you make it, you should have won the Italy game.


@65 I did a modest amount of investigation and it appears that King James, of Bible fame, was a verified heterosexual as he had a series of wives and a good number of children. Any suggestion of his bisexuality seems to rely on considerable conjecture about the nature of some of his friendships, there's nothing remotely definitive floating around.
Male Prostitutes -- seriously, are there such things catering to middle class women? I mean, supply and demand and all...


@74 tim browne
"...was a verified heterosexual as he had a series of wives and a good number of children."

That makes little sense. First, Venn didn't say he was gay, Venn said he heard he was bi. But even if he was gay, it was one of a damn kings jobs to have children (regardless of whether he was "genuinely attracted to women..."; perhaps that's what Venn meant by "bifunctional") and switch wives if necessary to.


Australia came back from a 0:2 deficit to win the game. The Guardian live coverage hailed the 58th minute equalizer in a Savagistic manner: "The Matildas are back on level pegging."


CMD great story, as usual!

Tim & others- while certainly male sex workers could participate in this hypothetical arrangement, my whole point is that women are mostly not going to pay for sex, but they are more likely pay for the services around the arrangement. Participating men could be sex workers or not. If they are not- if they are only vetted men participating in this service, it would be legal right? As when a bar streams a movie or a game and makes money by selling drinks/snacks- not for charging for the movie itself.


@69 BiDanFan: WaHOO!! Major congrats on scoring the Lucky @69 Award! May fabulous decadence come your way soon.


By the way, who's up for this week's Hunsky?


Ms Fan - Oh, well. They're always finding things in England, such as finding Richard III in that parking lot (in Leicester, if memory serves). I thought maybe they'd found some of his letters or something. It appears that Mr Wilde (perhaps the poster case for male fluidity) was at least at first genuinely attracted to his wife.

Mr Curious - He at least seems high in the ranks of the homoromantic kings. I recently heard what amounted to a "defence" of Edward II. I was just thinking how much (naturally) easier it is to give women the benefit of the doubt. Then again, even Mr Savage apparently could have produced at least an heir and a spare, as Ms Spencer once put it.


Thanks, Griz!
Interesting non-scholarly link on the topic of LGB English monarchs:


@69. Bi. I don't think I actually meant sticking a dick into a not-quite-very-wet vagina. I think I had in mind more bumping contact between the dick and the vulva than penetration or any kind of force in barreling a way in. From a penis-haver's point of view, what counts as wet won't (my feeling is) always be the same to the man as to the woman. Where do ciswomen start to get moist? Since the female genitalia as the man can see and digitally touch them in sex are mostly the external genitalia, it feels to the guy as if a woman is getting wet from the lower parts of her vagina (actually probably just 'the vagina'). All the anecdotal experience I have (and some personal--though PIV isn't my biggest thing having sex with women) is that, in lubricating more, the vagina responds to the dick as readily or more as to the touch (and, in some ways, the same as to the tongue). This is when both partners in their minds enthusiastically want to have penetrative sex...

Incidentally I also thought James VI & I just had 'favourites'. Shout-out to venn for avoiding Scots erasure.


@71. Emma. I didn't mean full penetration. What's the etiquette, then, of grabbing some lube and 'oiling her up' (as they say in Texas)? Sorry, that was irresistible. Even of asking? The context in which I have sex with women is almost always grouping. If a woman is indicating she'd like PIV but isn't moist enough for me to get in without a feeling of dryness in the friction, I'd probably (always seeking consent) go down on her again.

@69. Bi. I would think there a difference in negotiating the parameters of FWB sex and of sex with a male sex worker. But there is not much division between our views, if any. SMASH said that she could just go to a bar or on Tinder--her assumption being that she would get sex--but she was 'hesitant' to do so, her expectation being that the sex wasn't sure to be good. She thought it might be 'easier' to buy sex and asked for Dan's sense of 'pros and cons'. Presuming she meant the pros and cons of purchased as against hookup sex, it's true that a con of being a john (a joan?) is paying. You are absolutely right to say that FWB sex can be great sex. What I said was also apropos: if what makes sex hot for her is her passivity, then she should aim to separate, as far as she can, saying what kind of sex she wants from the actual fucking. I think I'd tell her to take a step back from whatever it is she habitually does now (or thinks that one does now)--not go to the bar in the same way, not get up a profile on Tinder in the same way, but instead strategise the hot fuck she's going to score. How can she find someone who will take her the way she likes? She will want to be explicit in her instructions without embarrassment, well in advance of the actual encounter--where she'll be taking more of a back-seat. She'll want to exchange messages with the guy first, to find out whether he's reliable, safe and is taking a genuine human interest (even as a fuckbuddy). She'll probably want to meet in public and screen him. It's right to reassure SMASH that these are all things she can do without 1) any sense that she will be taking the lead when it comes to their love-making, or 2) feeling that she will be setting her bar too high and that she will be scaring any potential high-quality, manfully forceful FWB off.


Harriet, I have no idea what you are going on about. You are the one who suggested that the woman needed to explicitly tell the man not to stick his dick in her vagina until she is wet. BDF responded that any man who didn't already know that is not a good candidate for this woman. Since then I'm not sure what you've been going on about, but there is nothing magical about a stiff dick that will lubricate a dry or moist vagina, and no bumping contact between the dick and a dry vulva does not sound particularly arousing nor do I have any idea what you mean by a vagina responding readily to a dick- light touch with fingers and tongue can be far more stimulating because of dexterity- obviously a penis does not have that. If I'm guessing, I'd say that you must be referencing experiences with women who are already aroused. If a woman's vagina is dry and she is not aroused, bumping it with your stiff cock is likely only to cause confusion- I'd wonder what in the world you are doing. The only way to tell if your partner is ready for penetration or not is to use your words or let her guide you- there isn't some magical wetness scale.

As for where/how women lubricate- again as I stated, lubrication is only one aspect of genital arousal. Similar to a penis, a vulva get slightly engorged with increased blood flow. The inner and outer labia and clit will feel more full and prominent- they swell up and increase size.. The increased blood flow causes lubrication- it is released mostly from a gland at the lower part of the vagina, above the vulva. Most importantly however is that during arousal, the actual vagina itself expands and lengthens which is why forcing a stiff dick into an unlubricated and unaroused vagina doesn't just cause raw unpleasantness but can also cause actual physical trauma- it is not a hole. The uterus also slightly moves position - all of these things are important as it likewise reduces the chances that you will bang your stiff dick into her cervix which is intensely painful to many women, akin to being hit in the balls. And of course, as I stated before, the clit is more sensitive and prominent when a woman is aroused, which is usually a requirement for orgasm for most women.

Hormones change with age and time of the month- I currently produce much less lubrication than I did when I was young and now use lube every time I have sex. I have found that if I use a lot of lube and very slowly and gently insert the dick even if I'm not fully aroused, then a bit of rubbing and playing around and partial insertion can decrease the time it takes for my genitals to become fully aroused. But this is with a lot of care and guidance from me- I think of it as similar to older men needed a bit more manual stimulation to get it up and going. But bumping my dry pussy with a stiff dick does not sound pleasant at all and inserting it sounds extremely painful.


More specifically to you Harriet- in your group encounters, the women are likely already aroused. Arousal and lubrication are not the same thing - one is a component of the other. So you are likely dealing with women who are already aroused but do to their age, hormones, whatever, need a bit more lube. What is the correct protocol? Talking to them. Women engaged in group sex are unlikely to be too shy to ask for lube or talk about what gets them off.

None of this is really relevant to your original statement which is that she would need to explicitly tell a man not to shove his dick in her while she was dry, so don't go back and pretend that you weren't referring to penetration.


Vennominon @48 and 63 and Curious @50, I may have given Ven the wrong idea about what happened. I saw little sign of self-censorship. As memory serves me (it was a few years ago), the cashier invited a customer behind the register and they had a playful sexual interaction of some kind while I was next in line. I got something along the lines of a "sorry about that" with some hint that I don't remember that led me to understand that the apology was for the open sexual behavior, not just for making me wait. I said "no problem" and we all went on about our business. I can't know what was going on in the cashier's head, but I didn't get the impression that he was feeling very oppressed.

FWIW, in the same general timeframe there was a time when my wife and I engaged in a rather nauseating, but not obscene, PDA and I looked up to see that we were right in front of a conspicuously gay man. I issued my own sorry about that (sincerely) and got his (apparently sincere) "no problem, it's cute" back. I didn't feel oppressed either. My behavior was probably worse because we were in pace that was not a sexually themed business.

I'm trying not to pick a fight about gay people in commerce who "have to" be pleased to have straight customers. I'm pleased to have gay clients, not be cause I have to be, but because I appreciate people who come to me for help.


I don't understand why being asked for a referral is "unpaid labor?" I can't imagine any situation where I would ever tip someone for answering a question, unless they had to do research to answer it. Do sex workers expect to be tipped for breathing?


I had a detailed reply to Harriet written but then EmmaLiz said it all. Harriet, you seem to have a "thinking out loud" style of writing, so you shouldn't be surprised if you mis-type when your thoughts aren't clear and people respond to the words you came out with. It's okay to say "oops, I didn't think that through" rather than claiming you didn't mean something you clearly wrote. As both a haver and a lover of vaginas, I will endorse your strategy of giving more oral sex if she is not ready for PIV. This is both a great thing in and of itself, and adds wetness to the vulva in the event that age or some other factor means her lubrication does not match her mental arousal. "Bumping contact" just sounds awkward, but if you mean outercourse -- sliding your dick between her labia -- that's a nice foreplay strategy too.

TLC @87: You've clearly never been self employed. Giving a referral IS unpaid labour. Yes, you have to do research. Yes, you have to contact the person you're thinking of referring to see, one, if they're available, and two, if they can help with the needs of this person who's asked. If person one isn't the right fit, you have to try to come up with another one and start the process over. If they're the wrong fit and you refer them anyway, YOU look bad. That's unpaid labour. Are you as contemptuous of self employed people in all professions or just this one?


@84. Emma. Thank you for the information about the gland.

@88. Bi. Of course people are welcome to challenge when I get it wrong. Probably what I was describing was 'outercourse'. I sort-of feel you're anyways coming in on my side of the argument--that SMASH should be able to say she wants to cede control in sex, while indicating this does not mean suffering roughness or discomfort. The broader question is 'how can someone ask for the sex they want?', when the assumption of control involved in asking doesn't seem sexy to them. The answer probably has to be that those looking for sex need to take on a minimal degree of agency in specifying what they like.


Harriet, I said all that @14, and you're the one who's parroting my advice rather than the other way round. I also think you're applying an interpretation of "I really want to get well and truly fucked by a guy who knows what he's doing" as wanting to "cede control," but I don't see any D/s element here. She wants a good fuck, but she has issues. Why overcomplicate this situation? Oh right, because that's what you do.


“I want to get well and truly fucked by a guy who knows what he’s doing..” what does that mean. Most men know what they are doing when they fuck, so I think there is an element of D/s in there Fan. It’s hardly even a kink anymore it’s so mainstream.


The LW disassociates during sex, and can’t articulate what she wants. Therapy is the first step I think, a step which should have been taken years ago. Like the daily letter, where the guy is just noticing twenty yrs later, his wife doesn’t desire him.
LW, I’m stumped, because you present as being so confused yourself. These magic men who know what they are doing and can somehow read your issues, when you find them please let us know where they hide out.
A therapy fuck is what you need. Someone you pay who is very responsive to your cues. Picks up when you go awol and brings you back.
Or, go talk to someone ASAP about these issues. Deal with the abuse. Deal with the damage that abuse has caused you.


Mr P - Thank you; I had visualized something a little heavier-handed, along the lines of your being in the "straightish" section and the staff member's observing your noticing an SS PDA ten feet away. Something right in front of someone is naturally a different case. Don't be alarmed by "self-censorship". I would normally have called it "toning ourselves down" or referred to "hitting our dimmer switch", but it happens that I had just heard a YouTube video about the recent disaster with Messrs Maza and Crowder by a "masc-appearing" political commentator who used the term "self-censorship" while detailing for the straight majority of his audience the myriad of little ways he alters his conduct, vocabulary, etc. when in straight or mixed company. (The women among us may well be likely to relate along a parallel line.) And, fortuitously, just before coming to this page, I read a pertinent interview with a gay singer. He detailed how he once lost his voice while touring, went to the doctor, and discovered that he was SINGING properly, and was only damaging his voice by SPEAKING deliberately in a lower register to sound more "manly".

The commerce bit was just pointing out that we wouldn't have the luxury of those evangelical bakers and florists. I could never have opened an all-gay bridge club, for instance, not that the idea would ever have occurred to me as desirable.


M?? Harriet - I've been thinking lately that, with monarchs and those in similar positions, their romantic orientations are more significant, allowing for the conventions of the times. Of course, with men, the argument of numbers will at some point lead one to conclude that at some point there almost HAD to be some genuine appeal in OS.


Lava @91, if most of the men you've fucked knew what they were doing, count yourself lucky. It's clear that neither of this woman's partners did. I don't see any element of D/s, I just see a horny woman who wants what most horny women want -- and what most men, indeed, are capable of providing. She just hasn't had it yet and she doesn't want to chance any more bad lovers. She has said herself that she finds it difficult to communicate her desires. I'm reading that as "the clit is over here, not there," you're reading it as "spank me," but regardless, she does need both to improve her skills in asking for what she wants and to find someone who's better at listening than she's had before. I agree a therapist could help her with the former.


And, in case anyone was wondering, I was unable to stop myself yesterday from devising a couple of parody verses beginning, "They paved Paradise and dug up Richard III." Why Paradise would be in Leicester I have no particular idea beyond Leicester City's managing a highly improbable Premier League championship in 2016, but there it is.


Fan, you’re not reading the letter. Not seeing the problems, because that’s what has stood in the way of the LW finding love/ empathy/ good sex. One of the two men she’s been with, was abusive. Her radar is damaged.
Yes most of the men I’ve been with have known what they were doing: kiss kiss, fondle fondle, take off clothes etc. it’s not rocket science to be able to know how to fuck. What this woman wants is a dominating experience, to be fucked good. You may not acknowledge the D/s component.. doesn’t mean it ain’t there.
This LW has issues which would prevent her from enjoying a casual one night ‘ go for it,’ and she says that clearly. Hence her idea to get a sex worker. Which would be perfect if such work wasn’t illegal where she lives.
If she’s got money and friends who will look after her child, then she could take a week’s holiday to a place where sex work is legal, get some good fucking and when she comes back, goes and does some therapy.


@88 I am self employed and so are most of the people I know. Although in a very different industry than sex work with none of the associated risks. I agree with you that if they go through the effort of researching and contacting someone that is work, I was just imagining a situation where they throw out names of colleagues they are already aware of. I have no idea if that's a fair thing for me to assume because I don't know anything about this industry.


@88 Also the reason I was frustrated is because as an old virgin I can imagine myself trying to hire a sex worker, and it's upsetting to think that after going through all the other hurdles one would have to go through you would have to pay people just to find someone who isn't a rapist. For most services I purchase I can assume people aren't rapists for free. I'm sorry I was judging something I don't know anything about though.


Lava, I am reading the letter. I quoted the motherfucking letter. There is nothing at all in there about D/s. You are making assumptions based on your OWN experiences. You may equate a good fuck with being dominated. I have had plenty of good hard vanilla fucks in my time. Feel free to interpret incomplete information differently from me but do not insult my reading comprehension.

    Please wait...

    Comments are closed.

    Commenting on this item is available only to members of the site. You can sign in here or create an account here.

    Add a comment

    By posting this comment, you are agreeing to our Terms of Use.