Savage Love

Deep Cucks

Comments

1

Re: Churn

Dan seems to have missed the sentence "We played a time or two after we got married." As in "only", whereas before getting married, it was "multiple times". The children aren't the problem, then. The problem surfaced as soon as they got married.

The fact that she did this many times before they got married, then basically stopped screams "bait and switch" to me. Although I am more than ready to acknowledge that the risks fall on her, there's no way she wasn't aware of that when she made her commitment.

3

@2 yes, anyone's desires are free to change at any time. But if those desires were a central premise of the relationship, it's pretty legitimate to consider ending the relationship when they change. But oh boy does having kids change this equation. I feel for LW. And his wife.

4

Could be, Ricardo, but he doesn't say how long after marriage she got pregnant. Unless he did and I missed it? All we know is that when they were not married, they played. Since they've been married, they have rarely played. And their oldest child is 4 years old. So have they been married 5 years or 10 years?

5

I have to come back to this one before bed. I keep thinking about it. I propose some people- if they prioritize certain lifestyles- don't attempt traditional hetero normative families. There are other ways to raise children. For example 

I think that some people probably ought to find platonic friends to coparent with and then have sexual relationships with others. Wonder if such arrangements can become a norm? Rather than expecting one person to be everything forever?

If it’s central to your life happiness that another person does some specific sexual thing or else you can’t be happy, then it seems a little wrong-headed to try to make lifetime commitments, knowing people change etc. That’s a lot to put on one person- and this isn’t something you can seek elsewhere.


Without knowing how long they were married before having children nor under what conditions they decided to have children, we cannot say whether or not this is bait and switch.

Did she trick him into fatherhood after a few years of marriage in which she did not indulge his kink after a few years of dating in which she pretended to be into it in order to get him to marry her? If so, then I’d suggest divorce just to get away from such a terrible scheming person. 

What else could he mean by bait and switch? What a thing to say about your wife and mother of your children. Either she’s a terrible person who tricked you or she isn’t- which is it? That is the central question here. If she isn’t, then you are doing some serious blaming and name-calling- maybe check your resentments?

If they were married for a couple years before kids and she only played a couple times during those years for whatever reason, then it seems really foolish that they’d think to themselves “I know what will make this better- adding two babies and a couple years of pregnancy and childbirth to the mix!”


If she got pregnant shortly after marriage (he did say they eloped, not that this means anything necessarily- they could just be sane enough to avoid weddings), then it’s normal that having children would change her sexual desires and her sense of caution. He says he knew the play would be reduced after having kids but apparently he thought having toddlers would be less impactful than babies or something? Give it a few years man, most people don’t find that it eases up until all the kids are in school.

Regardless, this woman has spent 2 of the last 5 years pregnant, delivering babies and giving birth. And she has had toddlers and babies the rest of the time- potty training and feeding and all that tedium. Hormonal changes, a different sense of risk, changes to sexuality- none of this is uncommon.


Frankly, I loop back to how I started- if your happiness honestly depends upon having a female partner that is going to want to fuck other men, and if you will leave her if she changes her mind about fucking other men, then it seems a little foolish to search for a life partner and even more foolish to have children with them IMO given how hormones and childbirth and childrearing affect people’s sexuality in unpredictable ways. Now you can’t leave without breaking apart your family -and then you’d have to start over looking for a new partner who wants to fuck other people. I suggest one that either doesn’t want kids or else already has them with someone else, otherwise you run the chance of ending right back here again. Of course retrospect doesn’t help and I guess I have no advice other than to cite this experience as a cautionary tale for others.

6

One is moved to wonder whether the kids are his, or does that not matter? Does it matter to her?

7

I mean everyone who has a lifelong monogamous marriage is putting a lot on the other person- the expectation that they will continue to desire you sexually, provide for your sexual needs, etc. But at least in those cases, there are options for alternatives if it doesn't work out- how you can seek those things elsewhere, nonmonogamous marriages, companionate marriages, etc. But what can you do if your sexuality requires you to be with someone who fucks other men? What alternative arrangement is there? If you see no alternative but to divorce someone if they stop wanting to fuck others, then I just don't see why you'd make a lifelong commitment in the first place. Am I missing some obvious alternative arrangement?

Would it work if the wife just lies about it? Or does the man need to see it? She could become a really good story teller.

8

I feel like these would be far more entertaining to me if they viewed the situation with a bit more Wodehouseian light humor. Second guy, especially, is soooo melodramatic. Your sexual proclivities are faintly ridiculous. Laugh at yourself, step up the parenting, and stop whinging.

9

LW1, that’s what fantasies are about, going into taboo territory. Why do you need to label it a kink, when it’s all happening in your head. If you want to see how you’d feel to have it happen in real life, ask your wife if she’d be interested in acting such scenarios out with you.
There is no normal re hetero fantasy life, long as it doesn’t involve children or non consensual sex, you’re right to go.
Not sure what you are angling for here, LW. They are fantasies, enjoy.

10

Is "seek it elsewhere" @7 impossible for this sexuality while possible for other needs? I.e. can he perhaps date somebody else and get his cuck on with her? (Is poly-cucking a thing or is that an oxymoron?) At worst isn't compassionate marriage -- and getting the monogamous cucking elsewhere -- equally possible here as with another sexual need?

Certainly the math is harder to find his wife up for that AND find somebody both up for seeing this married guy AND up for cucking, but that's true of any relatively rare taste, and we don't mostly advise every person with those to avoid having kids with a partner.

Talking through the what-ifs for this before having kids would have been wise. Not judging, plenty of things I should have what-iffed and just got lucky on so far.

11

"and we don't mostly advise every person with those to avoid having kids with a partner."

What do you mean by "we"? lol I do think most people need to seriously revise their expectations for what parenthood is and what their life will be like and what their personal needs are before they go and create entire new humans that will be dependent on them, emotionally, physically and financially for the better part of a couple decades.

But more seriously, someone who literally cannot be happy and even considers divorcing his wife and leaving his two toddlers if he can't be with a woman who fucks other men really and truly probably shouldn't look for a life-long partner and then have children with her. I don't think this is the same as saying "I need someone- preferably my wife but open to others- to whip me / let me suck her toes / indulge in diaper play" etc.

As for the poly option and other creative arrangements, definitely think they should explore them though it's probably not the best time to suggest it when they have two kids under 5 and definitely not from the starting point of "I'm considering divorcing you if you don't go along with this", etc.

12

But good question- does cuckolding require it to be the one wife and not a FWB on the side or a poly partner or someone else? Could they role play it? I assume cuckolding means it has to be a primary partner but maybe not?

I'd say someone else in this position (before marriage + kids) would be wise to seek a woman for whom having multiple male partners is central to her own sexuality. Rather than one who is open to it and enjoys it when it's new and exciting but then reverts to her natural sexuality when things change. Still no guarantee for life and post-kids, but certainly better chances.

13

@CHURN: Listen to Dan. Your wife has more than plenty to do already with two small children underfoot without having to deal with STIs and unwanted additional pregnancies. And she would indeed bear the brunt. Be patient and go easy on her. As Dan suggests, she might come around to cuckholding again once your kids are older.

14

FREED, the genesis of our kinks is entirely irrelevant, except in so far as understanding them allows us to engage in them with greater sophistication. To the extent that there are answers to your question, they are entirely within you, even if other's experiences are a Rosetta Stone for interpreting your kink. Try to think back to early sexual thoughts, your feelings about girls and women from childhood forward, your evolution of your interests in cuckolding from your awareness of this activity onward. With respect to your experiences, think about the details of what was taking place try to express as concretely as possible the elements that made something arousing. There may be no "Eureka" moments, because your kink may arise from many disparate threads, but you might find signposts that illuminate your sexuality.

@Dan: "Even if you were to tell anyone who found out that it was consensual and/or that you were a cuckold, it's not like she wouldn't still be shamed or ostracized. Judgmental family and friends would just heap equal portions of shame on you, too."

You characterize that as a reason to avoid setting the rules for their own relationship, but it seems that marriage should be about facing the world together, come what may, including charting your own path over the objections of judgmental family and friends.

The question that Ms. Churn needs to answer honestly is whether cuckolding is genuinely something that she is wiling to incorporate into their marriage. All of these risks and the obligations toward children, are things people navigate successfully. @Dan has written about these couples many times, and I have personally met many such couples. CHURN seems to have been satisfied by Ms. Churn fulfilling this kink irregularly. So absent Ms. Churn stating that cuckolding isn't something she will do again, long-term planning for once a year or twice a year should be doable during this child-rearing period.

15

Get creative, CHURN. Hire an illustrator to draw a storyboard of a scenario that your wife has invented involving her and another man. The illustrator can mail it to the house “anonymously” with a note saying you might want to see what your wife has been doing behind your back. You can look at it in bed while she regales you with details about what they got up to.

16

Thanks for that answer to LW1, Dan and guest.
I think it’s a positive, re the LW’s fantasy, that he includes his wife.

17

That’s a bummer CHURN, given you were clear about your conditions up front.
If you feel like you’ve been given a bait and switch job, confront her with this observation.
Two children under four, priorities need to stay with them now. Why didn’t you deal with this before babies. She had started to cool soon after the wedding.

18

I do kinda agree that if you can't stay happily married to someone unless they're constantly out cuckolding you, you probably shouldn't have kids. Your wife is very busy right now - she barely has the time to fuck you, let alone go out and fuck others.

19

On top of all the other valid reasons the wife gave, all the sex admin required to carry out something like this takes SO MUCH time and energy: finding someone you’re attracted to, vetting them, then running the risk that they’ll be a lousy lay anyway and perhaps having to process an un-fun sexual experience after the fact are 1000000x harder when there are kids in the picture. You’re pretty much dictating how she has to spend all her precious free time.

20

And if the above is something you expected your wife to have realized before you had kids, then you should have too. So shoulder your share of the responsibility for poor planning instead of mentally heaping it all on her.

21

What continues to irk me about CHURN is how he's intent on blaming his wife, when it was he who failed to do his due diligence as a kink-haver. Even a modicum of research would have shown him what Dan already knew: that women with young children are unlikely to want to pursue casual sex for the reasons outlined, and though some are, there's no way of knowing ahead of time how you'll feel. So if his absolute priority in a relationship was uninterrupted cuckolding, it was his responsibility to elect never to have kids -- and to make that clear early on when dating someone. Of course that doesn't do him any good now, but it's imperative that he understands how he's to blame, accept that his primary responsibility now is his kids, and go from there.

22

Bourbona: and she has to "process an un-fun sexual experience after the fact" with a hubby that's basically like "who cares if you didn't like it, this is about me getting off!"

23

I think we’ve seen letters from men like CHURN before. Suddenly, after a few years of child rearing and once the penny drops that this is an ongoing story, a kink which has only been satisfied spasmodically for years becomes an all consuming need.
You up to having small children under your care in the 50/50 custody arrangement, LW, if you go the way if divorce. Or were you thinking more she’d have main custody and you’d pop in for visits.
It’s suspicious timing LW, for you to be pushing for a kink over the ongoing care of your very young children. I smell family life freak out syndrome/ FLFOS.

24

Too bad sex work is so illegal and stigmatized. If it were not, they could look into renting a professional for her and short-cut the effort of shopping around and vetting partners. Still, Fetlife might help. But he needs to talk to her. Are there any conditions under which she'd be willing to do this? And for himself - are there any conditions under which HE would be willing (like fantasies, dirty talk, disguises, role play, etc.)?

25

My friends with kids treasure their kid-free time because getting a babysitter is hard in and of itself and you don’t always get a lot of time alone as a couple. And CHURN is shocked that his wife isn’t focused or keen on participating in elaborate sexual situations involving multiple parties? Like, the time commitment alone makes trying to cuckold with toddlers sound draining.

26

My advice to CHURN is to make his happiness his own responsibility here. After prioritizing childcare and housework and emotionally supporting his partner, of course. He can be the one to seek out potential thirds, do the initial vetting and confirmation of STI status, and then introduce his wife to candidates for her approval. Then, he can watch the kids while Mrs. CHURN enjoys her date night.

27

Ugh. If your wife had a job and two small children, where is she supposed to find the time? More than that, a woman with two small children changes in major ways... she becomes the mother figure, the nurturer, which is very at odds with going out and having random sex with a stranger. It’s just major cognitive dissonance. I recommend you get a grandparent or a babysitter and get a whole night or a weekend away to relish your sexy fantasies, and perhaps build up to what you want. But to expect her to kiss her little angels goodnight then head out for a night of random sex with a stranger I doubt will work. There needs to be a separation between “Mom” and sexy slut.

28

@1. Ricardo. I'm absolutely in sympathy with your take on it rather than Dan's.

STIs, pregnancy and shaming aren't 'legitimate concerns' in this context. The answer to the first two are to use condoms. They're risks to be managed, but 'concerns'? If we thought that, the advice to women might well be, 'on balance, don't have sex'. The stigma? Tell your closest friends you're in a hotwifing marriage. That's the price of admission; one of your girlfriend's, you can imply gracefully, is her husband's boorishess, another his crushing work hours, another his always-caving deference to his mother. So occasionally you hotwife? So what?

Or you pretend to. You dress up for a date, meet your gfs for commiserations over your crazy husband and a few glasses of sauvignon blanc, then you go home and spin a yarn about 'Stanley'.

29

@4. Emma. I don't want to get into whether she tricked her husband into the marriage for children--raised in a standard heteronormative context--and for the stability and respectability of the marriage itself. She didn't, necessarily. She doesn't owe him hotwifing now. He can feel sore about not getting it ... sure. He can't demand it of her.

Maybe, just maybe, if she owes him anything, it's clarity over whether she'll go back to it and on what basis. If she doesn't want to, let him go out and find a genuine voluntary hotwife with whom to have a secondary relationship. (Maybe not as satisfying--but he stays married and a hands-on father to his family).

30

I've been married 28 years so far and I can tell you people change and sometimes change again, life is long. In my case I was the first to change. I was kind of sexually naive when we got married, not inexperienced but very traditional in my thinking. Not long after we were married we started watching porn together back when that meant a trip to the porn store and renting something on vhs, then rewinding (always rewind), and returning the tape. You really had to commit to the effort. In one of those early porn excursions I discovered MFM threesomes and that kind of caused a sea change in my thinking. It was like a switch had been flipped. I wanted to do THAT!

My wife was fine with the fantasy but it was a hard no for ever doing it. We hadn't even had kids yet. I continued to pursue the fantasy part of it even if it would never happen. That led to bi porn, more threesomes, just now MMF. Also totally out of the question. Then we had kids.

For the next 6 or so years I was lucky to have sex at all. As Dan describes, life with young kids is a shit show. It does get better, once the kids are all out of diapers, and able to tell you what is wrong, it is much easier to find someone to watch them for a while so you can have a little space. We were lucky to have neighbors with kids the same age and we worked out a weekend trade off deal where we took turns. The kids loved the huge sleepovers, and we got a little time to ourselves. At this point we'd been married maybe 15 years and we were just starting to get our sex life back to the pre-kid point. Still literally no hope for any form of non-monogamy.

Then when the kids hit the teen years, we didn't even need child care anymore, we could go away for the weekend and just leave them at home with a Pizza Hut account that had a credit card on it. They loved the independence, and the pizza, and we got to date each other again. Then it was my wife's turn to change. This was a lady in her 40's who had never really even masturbated, no fantasies, just my crazy porn tastes for reference. Gradually she opened up her mind and cast off some of her Catholic upbringing.

Right around the time the kids were getting into the final years of high school she said yes to a threesome. I never thought I'd see the day. Totally her idea, she brought it up out of the blue. In the search for an extra guy we stumbled into swinging, which seemed a better alternative pool than just going to a bar. Again never thought I'd see the day.

Swinging led to a threesome with a girlfriend of hers that was getting divorced. Turns out my wife had a bi side she'd been repressing for years. Just like I had repressed mine. All that MMF porn was a clue that even I missed. Well that threesome led to what is now a 4.5 year poly triad! AND we swing with the girlfriend.

I'm hoping if you've stuck with me since the third paragraph you get what a stunning reversal of fate this is for us. I'm also hoping that anyone who feels trapped like our cuck friend here, can also see that truly partnering and sticking with someone can pay off in a big way. I waited 20 years for that threesome...totally worth it. One of the first things you learn as a parent, what you want isn't anywhere near the top of the check list. Parenting taught me patience, gratitude, and selflessness. AND in the end I still got what I wanted and a whole bunch more good stuff I didn't even imagine for myself. Life is good.

31

Harriet: cuckolding seems like a tricky thing to be getting outside your marriage. "have sex with other men or I'll find someone else... to have sex with someone else?" You can't have a one-time, NSA cuckolding because if the woman isn't in some sort of committed relationship with you it isn't cuckolding. Maybe he could be the secondary partner of a poly married woman? So she's cucking him with her husband? Or does that make him the 'bull' in this situation?

32

@1 Ricardo et al
+1

Another example of people (of both genders) being different after marriage. It's on CHURN for having kids anyway.

33

"Insatiable Wives: Women Who Stray and the Men Who Love Them" doesn't sound to me like a book about cuckolding. The wife is not insatiable. It's the man who loves her who wants to see her fucking other dudes, often against her preferences. This book title reeks of slut shaming.

CHURN is in a tough situation. He did everything right and this is where he ends up anyway. EmmaLiz @5, I'm not sure what the moral would be if this story is to be a cautionary tale. When you find The One whom you love and who indulges your kinks, don't marry or have children with them? Despite there being many happy kinksters with children out there? I also don't understand your assertion that CHURN is doing something wrong by thinking his wife "baited and switched" him. If you find a body buried in the garden, are you wrong for suspecting your spouse is a murderer? Additionally, thinking she baited and switched him does not equate to her being a terrible person. She could be a good person who baited and switched him. Good people sometimes do bad things, or the baiting and switching might have been subconscious or unintentional.

Mrs CHURN's concerns sound like excuses. Pregnancy and STIs? She can avoid those the same way the rest of us do -- by using condoms and asking partners for an STI test. Being "outed"? Place an anonymous ad listing your location as a nearby town. However, just because her excuses are flimsy does not mean she's obligated to fuck anyone she doesn't want to fuck. I agree with the "wait until this children are older" advice, but this problem started pre-children, so I doubt she will suddenly rediscover her cucking appetite when the youngest starts kindergarten. What's the standard advice here -- get the kink met by someone else? How does that work when central to the kink is the participation of a specific second party? Does he get the sense that the excuses are just that, that if resolved she will just come up with new ones, or that she may be ready to resume play if she can reconcile it with her new self-image as Madonna, not Whore?

34

Sex positive therapy / arbitration sounds like a good next step for these two, if he can't resolve her concerns sufficiently enough to revive her interest.

35

Harriet: "Emma. I don't want to get into whether she tricked her husband into the marriage for children--raised in a standard heteronormative context--and for the stability and respectability of the marriage itself."

You may not want to, but the LW is neck deep in it. If he really feels this way, he needs to evaluate whether or not this is accurate (in which case he has ample reason to divorce her because it would make her almost a cartoonishly evil scheming monster) or else his very first priority ought to be to deal with his own issues of resentment and blame and see reality much more clearly. I don't see how getting the wife to honestly evaluate or communicate her concerns and guess at her desire in the future is even remotely possible until he sorts this out. No one is going to communicate honestly with someone who comes to the table with the perspective of "I feel like you are a lying scheming manipulator who tricked me into marriage and fatherhood and I'm considering divorcing you because you won't fuck other men"- and if that person likewise has two toddlers at her feet that she has recently carried and birthed, I think such an approach might have violent outcomes.

So no. First step is, he decides if he really thinks this is a case of bait and switch, and if not, he accepts his share of the responsibility for the situation he's in. THEN communicate with the wife.

36

@BDF. Yes. If it is a REQUIREMENT in your life that you have a wife- one woman- that cuckolds you, and without this you will literally leave your family and divorce her, then it is exceptionally foolish and selfish to have children.

The cautionary tale is that people should have more realistic expectations for what birthing and raising children does to a couple and stop being so foolishly carried away about romances with THE ONE.

I said nothing about not having children in general (there are other ways to parent) and also nothing about kinksters in general. Most people's kinks don't require one specific other person to continue doing something time consuming with their own body despite their interests into the unforeseen future. So let's not generalize to other kinks.

Regarding the bait and switch, I thought I was pretty clear. He found a partner who had an interest in a new thing, found it exciting for a while, then cooled on it. But instead of seeing it that way, he's actually considering that she manipulated him intentionally, pretending to be interested in this kink, having sex with men that she didn't want to have, all to get hitched with him? And does he include the children in this scenario? Was he tricked into parenthood as well? It's possible of course, but the far more likely interpretation is just that she was into this thing for a while and now she isn't and that she was not lying.

The bigger question then is about how long they were married before having kids. He says she cooled after marriage, but he doesn't say how long they've been married. Their eldest child is four, so if they've been married around five years or so, then they've spent their entire marriage with her birthing and raising kids. He's 34 and we don't know how old she is, so it could go either way. Maybe they've been married for 7 years and she lost interest in the kink long before getting pregnant.

The reason this matters to your question is that in either scenario, he is blaming her by this bait and switch bullshit and not accepting his share of the responsibility (which is at least half). If she cooled after marriage and this went on for a long time before kids, then why in god's name did he have children if this kink- which was not happening already- is so central to his life? Does bait and switch mean she tricked him into parenthood too, a few years after tricking him into marriage and a few years after cooling on his kink? And if instead, they had kids shortly after marriage, then he is blaming his wife, the mother of his kids, saying she manipulated him rather than looking at the obvious reason- changes that come with pregnancy, childrearing, etc.

And so on- this is repetitive now.

37

Just want to add, Coolie, that your posts are usually very enlightening, thanks.

38

I just want to offer another interpretation of what Dan said to CHURN: Give it time. Visiting family on a week's vacation I was amazed just how tiring it was being an adult authority to my nieces and nephews, and that was with them being on their best behavior in front of me (Cool uncle FTW) and my family doing the actual parenting. So the addition of kids to the picture is likely making the very idea of cuckolding, let alone going through with it, absolutely exhausting.
Under normal circumstances cuckolding safely takes a lot of effort: finding men, screening them, ensure no overlapping social circles, scheduling the meetup, etc. Doing that all with the energy drain of kids and needing to organize your schedule around your kid's schedule may very well leave your wife saying "F-it, it's not something I can fit in my life right now," and that's assuming the energy drain of kids isn't crushing her sex drive to begin with.
But the biggest danger isn't that your wife is no longer interested in cuckolding. The biggest danger is that your frustration with the lack of cuckolding kills any potential for your wife to think of cuckolding as something she can enjoy. Because if she begins to associate cuckolding not with fun, hot sex with someone new that leading to funner, hotter sex with you, but with your resentment over her not fucking other men, there is zero chance she will ever want to resume cuckolding.
So go with Dan's advice to find a sex positive counselor who can help you understand your wife's change in her willingness to cuckold and who can help you prepare for what may be a new reality. Emphasize this isn't about getting your wife to resume cuckolding immediately or within a short period of time, this about trying prevent YOUR desire for her to cuckold from becoming toxic to HER potential enjoyment of a return to cuckolding in the future.

39

BDF- btw I don't know what the standard advice is, but regarding this being a cautionary tale, I'd say someone else in this situation should find a woman who ALREADY has a desire to have multiple male partners, not one who is into it (when it is new and exciting) because that's what the cuckold wants and she is pleasing him. Seems like there is no "for sure" option that this will continue, but I think you'd have a much better chance if you found a woman who was naturally nonmonogmous and already wanting lots of casual sex with multiple men. In short, if your happiness requires another person to behave a certain way, find someone who already behaves that way. This is much harder to do I'm sure, but it sounds easier than creating two new humans, getting a divorce, raising/paying for them for decades, etc.

40

@7 I don't see why he couldn't have a girlfriend who fucks other men if his wife is chill with it (and based on her comfort with his desires, she seems more likely to be than the average bear). It probably isn't quite the same as his wife doing it but finding a long-term GF who is into sleeping with other men is an option.

41

@25 Yeah. It would be super smart for this dude to work to carve out time for his wife to not be with the kids before broaching this. A three month campaign that involves a lot more away-from-the-kids time for her and for them will likely put her in a more expansive frame of mind. He needs to be a chores rockstar and a true coparent. Then his desires won't be as selfish.

42

@39 And the person who is into furry play should find someone else super into it but it's generally not that easy. You can spend a whole life looking for that person and even if you find them, odds are you're going to have to give on something else important (kids, politics, career). You're basically asking them to find someone more perfect and that's not a guarantee.

Cuckoldry can be a tougher sell than you're assuming. Asking someone to make this a central part of their own sex life is kind of a big ask. I'm a cis straight dude in a monogamous relationship. Would I love it if my wife wanted me to go sleep with another woman this weekend? Sure, that sounds great! Variety is the spice of life! Would I love it if my wife wanted me to be doing this regularly? Ugh, that sounds exhausting. I don't want to spend my life dating, dating is time consuming and awkward and filled with rejection.

43

People saying her reasons are "excuses"- please consider the ask. If she is going to have sex with multiple men, then yes, an additional pregnancy is a concern. Since they have two children under five, we can assume she has not been on birth control. So he is asking her to go back on birth control. Hopefully they are done having children with one another, so maybe she'd consider that already, but nonetheless, you are asking her to deal with the additional obstacle of dealing with that. And yes, STIs are a risk. She's probably already been exposed to the things that condoms can not protect against (herpes, HPV) but you don't know the details of her sex life. Maybe she doesn't have those STIs and doesn't want to get them. Maybe she doesn't want to open herself up to the possibility of gonorrhea or syphillis, which yes you can get through cocksucking. Maybe she's been nursing.

Likewise with worrying about one's reputation. It's easy to say it shouldn't matter what other people think- but when people are in a situation to face the judgement and shaming and criticism of others, it does actually matter to them. We know nothing about what sort of support system she is depending on right now. Does she have an extended community- friends, other parents, family members- who are a part of her life, important especially when one is raising children? It matters how people around you consider you, regardless of it it SHOULD or not, and when you aren't childfree, it's not so easy to just pick up and surround yourself with more freewheeling open-minded people.

What we feel personally about managing these risks and what we are willing to do to prevent them is irrelevant to how she feels about it. To dismiss these concerns as "excuses" is really shitty IMO.

It's a case of current incompatibility. I say current because I don't think you should make judgements about future behavior based on how people behave when they have two toddlers under foot. In a few years when both are in school, she might be in an entirely different place in life.

44

@Larry, I'm in agreement with what you are saying. But you are comparing the difficulties of finding a woman into it vs finding one who is open to experimenting with it but it isn't central to her life. Which is fine and sane and by far the most reasonable option UNLESS you are likewise the sort of person who will divorce your wife and children if she does not remain into it. In which case the comparison is not the one you laid out but the difficulties of finding a woman into it vs the difficulties of creating, raising, paying for kids and also divorcing your wife and then looking for a new woman who is open to experimenting with it.

See? Someone with this kink in such a way that it is THAT central to his life that he will divorce his wife with two small children if she loses interest needs to either have some back-up arrangement to get this need met (such as the girlfriend you suggest or role play/fantasy others suggest) in case the wife loses interest OR he needs to find other ways to be a parent- a platonic coparenting situation for example. The point is that a kink requirement like this- ongoing for years all on the shoulders of one other person behaving one way forever- is not always compatible with the sort of marriage/family he has entered into. It's a really spin of the dice with a high likelihood that it won't work out, and he should've run a better cost/benefit analysis here before bringing kids into it -and ditto for the wife. When they were considering having kids, did he tell her, "I will consider divorcing you, even after two kids and even if everything else is fine, if you lose interest in fucking multiple other men?" Because if so, and if she had children with him anyway under the impression that nothing would ever change, then they are both pretty stupid.

Again, a furry can always get their kinks met outside their marriage, and as with most other kinks, there are levels of indulgence that the primary partner could engage with. Like if you were into BDSM, you could do it light sometimes, heavy others- ebb and flow throughout the marriage depending on time, inclinations, etc. None of this is applicable to this fetish which requires her to fuck other men to please him, apparently for the rest of her life and apparently regardless of her own changing desires. There's no halfway or partway to do it, and no way for another person to do it (unless there is, as you suggest with the gf- something they should definitely explore).

45

I've been in a similar situation, where my ex-wife's desire for kink cooled after marriage. However, if I'm being honest, there were plenty of signs before marriage that kink was going to be an issue for her.

Similarly, the LW wrote:

I remember very clearly on the day of our elopement discussing that this was more than a kink for me—it was central to my sexuality and I needed her buy-in before committing for life.

First, it's awfull late to leave this discussion to the day of the elopement. Second, he doesn't say whether he got her explicit buy-in or not. I bet he didn't, or he would have mentioned it.

46

ThatOtherGuy @45: Good catch, but he also says: "I knew I was a cuckold before I met my wife. As soon as things got somewhat serious, I made this very clear, as I had learned repeatedly that my desire for a cuckold relationship almost certainly spelled doom." So he did state this as a non-negotiable early on, and gave her one last chance before getting married to back out if this was not something she could commit to.

EmmaLiz et al, I hear what you are saying about cuckolds looking for women who don't want children, BUT from these letters it is extremely common (and understandable) for women to experience reduced interest in any and all sex when young children are in the picture. Couldn't your advice be equally applicable to all men who like sex? Universal vasectomies if you like sex at all? As a dedicated child-free person, this troubles me. We usually tell men in the young-kids-less-sex situation that they must accept and adapt to the new normal. We know that it is important to many people -- of all genders -- to have children, and it seems unfair to tell those women who are GGG enough to accommodate a cuck fetish that they must (also!) abandon any hopes of motherhood.

I agree with you @39 that it is good advice for cucks to find women who are happily non-monogamous, and that role play could help this couple while they are in the young-kids stage. I liked the idea of CHURN staying home with the kids while wife has a night out with friends, then comes home and spins a Scheherazade-like tale of wild sex she did not necessarily have.

47

Generally agree with Dan, and agreed with EmmaLiz, throughout, wholeheartedly.

Agree with Larry in @41 only. The BEST potential CHURN has is to selflessly give her a good 3 month period (without the cuckholding pressure) of making her life as easy, and with as many breaks from childcare and domestic responsibilities as possible. Take on as much as he can and more, make sure she has lots of opportunities for free time. If he's lucky, she'll be more relaxed after this 3 month period, and maybe won't feel so frazzled and frightened of all the extra manageable factors....and then, he would need to CONTINUE this trajectory, in order to hope to get this back eventually. It's not a give take equation- not like " I helped extra for 3 months now you give me this"-- you simply recognize your best chance for the healthiest sex life you can get (since this is divorce level do or die important to you) is to make her life as EASY AS YOU CAN everyday. Then, hope, man. No pressure.

The only credit I will give Churn, maybe a little more than EmmaLiz (though I mostly think he's being a selfish manchild, personally)-- is that LOTS of people (my partner and myself included) SEVERELY underestimated how much our lives was going to fucking disappear with small children. We still make time for sex, and even kinky sex occasionally..but honestly, prior to kids, I probably would have said we'd "make time" for cuckholding cause it was important, only to realize after that I haven't even had time to relax and properly take a shit in a year, let alone set up a fucking cuckholding sesh. So there is a chance you were both a little naive in that respect- and that's a bummer for everyone. If that's the case, she's probably missing her old sexuality, and her old energy too. She's probably missing personal grooming time, and free time and energizing me time. I know I am, and even though my partner and I are generally doing well...Christ I'm tired. Parents of young children are missing a lot of everything time. To solely focus on "your loss" is selfish and annoying to read.

48

Lastly, going back to LW1 and the response... I will say, I find the expert answer kind of annoying (bi guy "using" his wife to exercise his own m on m fantasies). Come on, bi guys don't need anymore fuel/paranoia that they're secretly acting out gay fantasies with their hetero partners. Let's give some credit if the guy is openly bi, and married, he knows what he is, and is not subconciously or secretly looking to "use his wife as a vessel" for his gay fantasies. Maybe a closeted dude, but a dude who knows who he is can just wack it to or hallpass it to the dudes for his dude fantasies. Give him, and his wife some credit that his fantasies involving her, and cuckholding are actually about her.

49

Couldn't your advice be equally applicable to all men who like sex?

BDF I'm not sure if you are intentionally misunderstanding (not your style) or if I'm not being clear (very much more likely). No other kink or sexual interest (that I can think of) requires one specific other person to continue to have sex with multiple other partners for decades and decades regardless of their changing desires and circumstances in life. That is already an unrealistically (in most cases) big ask. To pile pregnancy and childrearing on top of this makes it even more unlikely, and if the consequence is that you will leave the family if she doesn't continue to behave in this highly unlikely way and there is no other alternative, then having children with her specifically seems extremely foolish.

And yes, I'm advising that EVERYONE consider how parenthood will realistically (potentially) affect their sex life and talk about that in detail before hand so they aren't blindsided and full of resentment- but there are work arounds in all other situations I can think of, including reducing expectations, putting things on the back burner, opening marriages, prioritizing reconnections, having companionate marriages, the list of possibilities is literally endless specifically because the problem does not revolve around the requirement that one specific person continues to do one specific thing forever.

Also again, I did not say he should look for a woman who does not want kids nor did I say either the man or the woman in this situation should abandon parenthood and I'm not sure why you think I said that. I said they should probably consider other alternatives. For example- there are plenty of people out there who ALREADY have children who are dating. You can coparent with someone who is not your primary partner. If your relationship REQUIRES that you be with someone who never loses interest in fucking other people and there is no wiggle room here for workarounds, then you are literally requiring that one person to behave a certain way forever or else you will leave them. I can't think of any way for this to be healthy long term unless you cross your fingers and hope that other person never loses interest in doing this for you. Since it's likely that she will (especially if she wasn't into it in the first place on her own), and since you can't be happy without a partner that will behave that way, then it's probably a good idea to accept that you will have a series of relationships over the course of your life - it's unlikely that there will be a THE ONE. Give it a shot for sure, sometimes it works out. But I don't think you should add kids to the mix given both A) the well known and unexpected ways they affect people's sex life and B) that you will divorce your partner if A happens. I mean, what a person in that position is saying is, "let's take a gamble and have kids and hope it doesn't change your sexual desires regarding the specific thing that I require which has no alternative nor substitute . If it does, I will divorce you, even if we have two kids under 5 and everything else is fine." If that's your perspective going in, you should not attempt to have kids in that relationship. You should separate your coparent from your primary sexual partner- something that many people do anyway, by both circumstance and choice. This is the much more sane approach.

50

EmmaLiz @5–“If it’s central to your life happiness that another person does a certain specific sexual thing or else you can’t be happy, then it seems a little wrong-headed to try and make lifetime commitments, knowing people change etc. That’s a lot to put on one person...” Um, specific sexual things involving one person like...a monogamous sexual commitment? I don’t see this as any different. You make it sound as if the wife doesn’t need to take responsibility for promises she has made. When CHURN said in no uncertain terms that he needs to be cuckolded in order to be sexually fulfilled, and she agreed to be his wife, she was implicitly if not overtly saying that she was willing to take that on for as long as they were together.

Do people change, of course they do. But, as with a monogamous commitment, if that change makes life difficult for the partner you promised to love and support til death do etc etc, it’s the sporting thing to be upfront about it—not downplay the change and make them into an asshole for having unreasonable expectations, as you seem to be advocating. At some point she should have said, “I don’t think cuckolding is something I can continue doing.” She owes him that clarity. Regardless how it came about, whether she rubbed her hands gleefully on their wedding night and said, “Now I’ve got you, my pretty,” or whether she realized after awhile that her enthusiasm was diminishing, either way she is letting him down and she knows it. He had been more than clear with her beforehand and she knew what was at stake.

I don’t know exactly how bait-and-switches come about, but I do think they happen, and I think you muddy the waters by caricaturing the wife as some evil monster to prove your point that it’s silly to make a claim of bait-and-switch. What self-respecting person would marry such a calculating witch? It’s not to be countenanced! If I had to guess I would say bait-and-switch is more a result of standard human weakness and wishful thinking than outright manipulation. You think you can be this person you know your fiancee wants you to be, you want the marriage really badly, maybe things will work themselves out anyway, and then along come the kids, and you don’t have the energy or the interest to play that other part anymore, and to be honest you never really did feel right being that other person, and how unreasonable of your spouse to have pressured you into that anyway, but you know how important it is to them, and pretty soon you’re not being honest with your spouse either, and avoiding the issue, and living your life dishonestly and unhappily, trying not to think about it and about how unhappy your spouse is too. You kind of slide into the situation, rather than cynically setting it up beforehand. But I find it hard to believe that there wouldn’t be some inkling beforehand that you are not being honest with yourself and your future spouse, and I think it’s disingenuous to get a pass on that by saying, “Well golly, people change, you know?” Especially if the change happens suspiciously soon after the wedding night.

To your point that this guy needs to stay childless: I’m pretty sure many married couples with kids manage this kink. She’s just not into it, and she should have been clear about that. If this is any kind of cautionary tale, it should be: Don’t marry someone you know, in your heart of hearts, you can’t be sexually compatible with. And don’t marry someone expecting they will change.

51

First off, I'm not advocating for the likelihood that two people should get married and expect monogamy for decades either, especially with the ebbs and flow of sexuality when kids are born, so I'm not being contradictory. But the fact remains that people who enter into a monogamous relationship have the OPTION of opening it up later or exploring other ways of being sexual together- there are all sorts of alternatives available for their sexualities to grow and change with their own individual changes as the years tick on.

This is not the case in a situation in which the LW requires one thing forever from the same person.

Second, it's disingenuous to compare expecting someone to repeatedly have sex with strangers to please another person to any other kink, sexual experience or the (often unrealistic) expectation that they will continue to have sex with their partner. But again, the difference is the options and alternatives available.

Bait and switch requires manipulation and intention. It's not incidental. If he had poor word choice fine, but I'm responding to the words he used and the general tone of his letter and his own admission that he's angry. And yes, IMO, a person who would lie and manipulate someone into marriage and childhood is particularly evil- I can't really think of something worse than creating humans under false pretenses and trapping someone else into a life that they would not have chosen for themselves if they had the information that you manipulated.

For the last time, I did not say he should stay childless. I said (repeatedly) that someone with this kink should probably separate their coparent from their primary sexual relationship- something that is likely to be the natural consequence of this marriage anyway once they get divorced and he moves on to another woman who wants to cuckold him.

I'm about to run off now and drop the nephew in his new college town for the summer, whoo-hoo for me! So sorry, can't respond more as if anyone would want that, ha ha!

52

someone with this kink

Change that to be- someone with this kink who will accept no alternative and will divorce their partner if it doesn't continue.

I'm sure there are plenty of people with this kink who see it as a cherry on top or as something that ebbs and flows in their marriage which is entirely different.

53

I think it's a bit silly to scold CHURN for having had kids with his wife. She also knew she shouldn't have had kids with him if she wasn't able or willing to give him what he described as something that was central to his sexuality and for which he needed her buy-in before committing for life. They're both to blame for that mistake, so it cancels out.

54

coolie @ 30
Now what about you? Did YOU ever rewind those videos?
Rest assured, I liked your post regardless.

55

@ Ricardo at 53- read EmmaLiz above re: asking one person to have sex with other people forever being different than literally any other ask.

I guess what is going undiscussed here is maybe less what CHURN "should" do now- and more what CHURN can do now- and Dan addresses this well.

We can all agree that his wife has the right to change her mind.

CHURN, you can totes divorce your wife because she isn't into this anymore at this time in your lives. Does it make you an asshole? Opinions seem to vary, ultimately, whether or not the internet or people in your lives think you're an asshole isn't a good reason to stay married. So, if it's really a deal breaker for you to not have this anymore, potentially for years, then get yourself some divorce paperwork, dude.

Mostly, tonally, it sounds like you don't want to divorce your wife, you're just comlpaining to Dan that you feel "tricked" that she changed her mind. That's bullshit. Kids change EVERYTHING. The implicit understanding before anyone has children, is that anything and everything can and will change, at least temporarily. I mean, it's important to me that I shower daily, but I have missed that mark since I've had small kids. And frankly, any one without kids simply does not fully grasp this impact- including most people prior to having kids.

So again, if you are looking for permission from Dan or the internet to feel tricked by the mother of your children that you love, because she isn't into fucking other dudes right now for valid reasons, then by all means, do her a favor and ask for a divorce, and find someone who will indulge. You're saying it's a capital D Dealbreaker and "she knew!" so break the deal.

What you can't do, is hold her hand to the flame and say you promised, so you have to fulfill, and from the tone of your email, that's what I'm guessing you're looking for. You aren't going to get it. You keep saying how clear you were in presenting it s a nonnegotiable, but generally most of us regard marriage as requiring change and flexibility at some points to work. In fairness, if she wants this to work, she should give you a game plan for re-integrating it into your lives (perhaps once the kids are school aged). If she doesn't ever, and you need it, congrats on your imminent divorce.

56

Just to point out, CHURN says, "I can't help but FEEL LIKE I had a bait and switch pulled on me." Feel, not think -- I don't think he literally suspects his wife trapped him intentionally, rather that her mindset changed subconsciously once the legal commitment was made. Still, though, he is upset and has a right to be. I hope that once the kids are older, she can once again find the part of her that enjoyed these romps and incorporate it back into their life.

57

@54 Oh yes, sometimes I rewound them, watched them again, and then rewound them again.

59

Oh, I definitely think you should divorce her and dump your kids so you can find a woman who's really in to banging a bunch of strange men so you can get your jollies. There will be MANY MANY women lining up for this.
You need to align your desires with realities. Maybe a new neighbor will move in that your wife actually wants and you'll get your fantasy fulfilled every night. Or not.

60

Ricardo, FWIW, I'm not blaming the husband more than the wife here in anything I said- it probably seems that way b/c HE is the one who wrote in, not her, and b/c he is the one claiming it was a bait and switch rather than a depressingly common outcome of such a situation.

62

There are two small children involved here, they come first now until they are older.
This man is indulging himself because if this kink was so damn important to him he would have realised just after the wedding his wife was not really into it, and left her.
All this resentment LW is bad energy for your kids to have around them as they grow up. These little people are your responsibility now, physically and psychologically, no matter what really has gone down with your wife and your kink.

63

And wasn’t she an idiot to have babies with a man, who has an occassional kink that she doesn’t share, one that he can and does pull out when suits. Thereby creating an unpleasant environment for his family because god damn, Dad is not getting what he wants.
LW, do as Dan suggests. Incorporate this occasional kink into your life thru dirty talk, pretend games, and look to having the real thing satisfied later. Or not.
I don’t believe this kink is such a big part of your sexual needs, because if it was you would have fought for it five plus yrs ago. It’s an excuse, I think, because hey, life looking after children who are four and younger who need lots and lots of care, is not about you. It’s about them.

64

I don’t buy the argument that the commitment CHURN was looking for is any different in kind from people who need sexual monogamy in order to feel fulfilled. Sure, it’s a bigger ask, in that it involves other people and more time and effort and risk, and I hope that CHURN did and does take this into account and behaves accordingly—appropriate gratitude expressed, chores and burdens cheerfully shouldered to make the logistics easier for her, etc. But it’s similar in that if your spouse isn’t into it, your sex life stops working. How many women want sex with their spouse, and only their spouse? It’s literally the standard model for marriage. Companionate marriage, open marriage, alternative arrangements...none of those are an option for them either if their husband’s sexual interest dies. They all miss the point that such a person only feels sexually fulfilled coupling with the person they are married to, and they expect their partner to feel the same way. Anything else doesn’t work. So is a lifelong commitment on that premise unreasonable? I think so, but no more than CHURN’s was, and literally hundreds of millions disagree with me and stand up in church and make the commitment anyway.

65

‘For a lot of women,’ Mr D, @62, how do you know this?
Women can go thru a transformative experience when they have children, sad if some men don’t as well.
In the words of dear Carol King, “ It’s too late, baby.....” you tell us you have kids, Mr D, so you’d know what it’s like to have little ones underfoot.
Then you’ve got husband banging on about this kink he’s sure he’s got and now, now is the time he wants it satisfied. Fuck him. Bait and switch my arse.
She played, then she didn’t and then both
of them decided to have children.
He knew the truth years ago, and I assume, before babies came. So suck it up, let it go as some sort of demand, and try to engage his wife in forms of play, without the ‘but you promised,’ energy to it.
She has enough to do looking after her family, without child-husband sooking round the house.

66

This kink seems to have logistical difficulties that would likely scupper the Get It Outside solution, given that it would involve a second commitment that neither LW nor W may really want, to say nothing of OW, and especially as he's already enjoyed a much higher-grade wished-for violation of a commitment. What a shame that what I'm tempted to call the General Hospital solution - showing LW a faked blood test "proving" he's not the sperm provider - wouldn't suffice.

The closest I could get to a parallel to LW might come from Cracker, in which Fitz expects as monogamous a commitment from Penhaligon as he does from Judith. That's rather funny, as Fitz is almost suspiciously anti-c* in his attitude (his behavior might lead those who think Dr Bachmann secretly closeted to theorize that his outrageous conduct is at least partly motivated by a desire to push Judith into cheating). W might have to have all the sangfroid of Elizabeth Urquhart from House of Cards.

67

Oh Late, how nice to see you again. You heard the old saying, Late, actions speak louder than words? This man’s wife lost interest in his pop up kink, PUK, years ago. Did he mention it then? Who knows.
Sorry, he seems to have had enough clues, his bad for continuing in the relationship, if this kink was so important to him.
Little kids, he’s bored, he wants a bit of action. Oh that’s right, he says. I’ve got a kink here somewhere, I’ll guilt the wife into shining it up.

68

CHURN is a self-centered POS. I think it's pretty telling that the only mention he makes of (presumably) his own children are as cock-blocks. I'm not sure what his plan is here. He thinks he'll divorce his wife and then find a woman willing to marry him who is willing devote herself entirely to the high-maintenance needs of his dick FOREVER? Good luck with that, buddy.

69

marilynsue @ 58
“Why does "cuck" seem so much like "unpaid pimping"?”
Good question. As lawyers and accountants often say,” It depends.”
I think the overall relationship is the main factor here. Nowadays one can meet like-minded much easier. And while there are some who may get off by just seeing their SA having sex with someone else, many are attracted to it because of their own struggles and insecurities.

In this case, and probably in most others, it is a het couple and the husband is the first to bring it up. Much of how it unfolds depends on the relationship outside the bedroom, being patient and understanding, and the possible mutual benefits as coolie @ 30 may prove.

70

Bottom line LW, grow up. You and your sexual needs are not relevant, at this time. I’m sure your wife comes across enough with the ‘ol vanilla sex, or you would have exclaimed about that.
Read your own letter again, read how fucking self absorbed you are. How old is your youngest?
These little people need you to pull your head out of your arse, and focus on them. Ffs, be a Farther, while that role is so important. Which it is, during the first many years of a child’s life.
This is your main work now, in life. Rearing happy, healthy and self directed human beings.
Your cock’s wishes are way back, after your wife’s need to get a good night’s sleep.
By the attitudes coming thru in your letter, you have zero empathy for the hard work she’s just been thru, re your children arriving. Little love for your wife, and appreciation for the beautiful family she facilitates, while you sit around brooding about how badly done by,
you are.

71

Father not Far-ther.

72

If this tool hadn’t had kids, I’d have given him a pass. Another man with his view only directed at MeMeMe.
Seriously LW, you have got me mad. These children of yours, need an adult man around the house. Aspire to be one.

73

There doesnt have to be a bunch of mystery to why a man would get turned on by cuckolding (or stag play or hotwifing or whatever flavor of female partner sharing you prefer). Same reason they get turned on by lesbians. Its female want, manifest. Add in the denial aspect - something he wants so bad, but someone else is enjoying, and that is a pretty potent mix that doesn’t need any big introspection to explain. And sure, toss in competition as a bonus.

74

Doesn’t mean this kink can’t be satisfied further down the road, it’s now that matters. And now his children are young, and the parents need to pull together as a team.
Talk with your wife, LW, without our all the promise bull, that’s water under the bridge now.
If you do your share of these intense child rearing years, who knows what her love and appreciation for you will generate.

75

All sex requires at least SOME effort. The kinkier the kink, though, the more work it requires. A ball gag and pegging session with one’s primary partner, for one, is WAAAAAAY less work than rope bondage with suspension, and that’s still probably less work than satisfying a must-have-no-excuses cuckold kink like CHURN has. Not only must she do all the dirty work of finding a bull, she’s the one who has to fuck the bull and THEN talk it up and fuck her husband. If the bulls she’s finding are lousy lays, and her husband isn’t sympathetic, that’s a pretty damn hard road to follow. For years. With no end in sight.

If she’s lucky enough to find a full-time bull that she likes and who is a decent lay, then what? Will she be expected to fuck him on a schedule that suits CHURN, or does she get to pick when? If she fucks her bull once a year, because they live in Calgary and he flies up from Brazil for an annual work meeting, will CHURN be satisfied with that? (My guess is, hard no.). How about once every six months? If he’s insisting on it at a certain frequency, then once again, it’s WORK. Work for her, work that involves a lot of planning and scheduling and effort and not a whole lot of getting her rocks off....so his dick is happy.

I don’t get any indication from CHURN that he acknowledges or appreciates the effort he demands from his wife, and that’s not even including demands on her time from having two preschool age kids. I do get resentment that she’s not making this major effort on his behalf, apparently without his active participation. If I were in her shoes, that alone would make me extremely resentful as well. Working like a dog for an ingrate is not fun. Double that for working like a dog for an ingrate when there are toddlers involved, the ultimate ingrates. If she starts putting “sex with husband” in the same bucket as “change nappies” and “organize bathtime,” their sex life is doomed.

If he has to have steak or starve...his wife finding strange...then more likely he will starve. If he’s willing to accept a ham sandwich instead, like role play or hiring a hungry grad student to write dirty short stories about what he did to her and when, that makes her workload way lower and he gets some of what he wants.

76

Apologies, but it is hard to read multiple epic length posts...

CHURN did precisely what we tell people with kinks to do. He used words, and did so early in the relationship. Ms. CHURN understood that her willingness to cuckold CHURN was central to his fulfillment in their ongoing relationship, and cuckolded CHURN multiple times before marriage and did so more than more thereafter. To say that this was insufficient calls into question the validity of the advice we collectively offer most frequently.

No one can dispute that children significantly impact the ability of couples to engage in sexual adventures, but it is indisputable that many couples manage to do just that, and the couples who often do so are the ones that have agreed that sex or specific sexual adventures are important to them. So the position that children automatically invalidates any understanding a couple has around sex - and that CHURN should have known this fact - is nonsense.

The very risks of STDs and pregnancy that Ms. CHURN previously accepted are no greater now, and are the same for every other single person who is sexually active with opposite sex partners. Ms. CHURN's risks are not zero, but they are not so high that they would not be borne by the average heterosexual / bisexual woman.

What of the hypothesis that Mrs. CHURN gave it a good faith effort to follow through on her commitment, but found this kink unappealing? If the decreased frequency with which she was engaged in cuckolding CHURN reflected that growing disinterest, she should have used words and expressed her feelings at the time. And if that is how she really feels then she should say so directly rather than point to other reasons.

77

May some of you men come back as women and get pregnant, give birth and breast feed multiple young.
Sure SA, some parents who are both into the kink, can make it happen. That’s the sticking point here, one of the parents isn’t into it. And it’s the parent who would have to go out and do the yards. We don’t even know how long ago she birthed, or if she’s breastfeeding still.

78

I’ll amend the first sentence @77, to’..come back as womb - havers..’

79

His kink isn’t the main issue here, for me. It’s his selfish attitude to the situation he’s in now, that I’m reacting too.
Little children pick up the emotions around, and it’s a parent’s job to facilitate an environment where they feel safe and protected.
This man doesn’t see that, doesn’t see how important his focus is needed now, for his children’s sake. Now. Is a relevant concept.
Multiple posters, mothers by their comments, have pointed out how tired one is, how things change once babies arrive. This man still has babies or a baby in his care. Four isn’t very old.
Dan has given you good suggestions LW. Mine is, drop the resentment and appreciate
what you do have. Later, once the children are older, find a way to incorporate your kink. If you’re straight with your wife instead of laying guilt trips on her, anything might evolve. With or without her involved.
Enjoy, and with your wife, protect your young family, LW.
This kink has been on the back burner, you’re not going to perish if it stays there a while longer.

80

LateBloomer @64: Yes, very well put. Many people want children. Most people who marry seem to want children. And 95 times out of 100, if not more, children put a crimp on one's sex life. This is as sure as the fact that 95 times out of 100, the person you marry at 25 will be heavier and wrinklier when they are 40 -- as will you! It is just a fact of life, a fact of coupled life. People must go into marriage and children expecting sacrifice, part of which is the frequency of sex, which will take a sharp nose dive when kids are small and rarely fully recover. Open relationships cannot be the solution in every case. Non-monogamy takes time and effort that new parents just do not have. So yes, whether vanilla or kinky, whether monogamous or non, one must accept that one's sexual needs will place a distant second to one's children's needs or not have children. I think we are all agreed that the best approach for CHURN is to put this on the back burner until the kids are in school and THEN revisit the cucking issue. If he is still having this problem in five years, he should come back to Dan then.

81

An alternative suggestion for CHURN: maybe a different type of open relationship is in order. Perhaps ask your wife if she'd be okay with you seeking out an occasional experience with another couple who would be up for indulging your cuck kink. It's a niche market so it would take a long time to find somebody, most likely. But it's worth looking. If you find a couple who enjoy your kink but where the guy is a bull rather than a fellow cuck, you could have some fun. Maybe you can reduce your risk by not even having intercourse. You could watch. You could have dirty talk where they make you feel like less of a man, if that's what you're into.

Just remember, always use condoms and get tested every six months because condoms sometimes break.

One more note, if your wife agrees to this, and also if she doesn't, make sure that you're fully engaged in co-parenting. Don't be the type of guy who considers watching his own kids as "babysitting". Make sure that your wife has times when she can close the door and not be disturbed by the kids, so that she can recharge herself. (Well, you both should, but in parenting couples I've known, it's less likely for the woman to get that.) Maybe encourage her to have a biweekly girls night with some friends, while you stay home and have a family night with the kids. And who knows, that might help her remember that other side of herself in time. Although, don't have that expectation, and don't be a jerk to her if giving her more space to herself doesn't make her want to start cucking again. You're not doing it with that intention. You're doing it because every parent deserves to have some time when they get to have an identity outside of parent.

82

Remove the kink from the equation for a second here. Let's say his wife, due to the pressures of multiple pregnancies and childrearing, was not into the idea of having sex at the moment. She could be willing to revisit it later, but having two children under five made it next to impossible. Would anyone here genuinely suggest he should divorce her? What if she didn't want to have sex right now because she had gone through something traumatic like assault? Would he be in the right to divorce her then?

If she had refused to ever indulge his kink again, he would've included that in the letter. Instead he's considering divorcing her for prioritizing their children over his dick.

84

I have only skimmed the comments, so forgive me if I'm repeating what has been said before, but I don't see what is to be gained by assigning blame here.

These two are probably sexually incompatible if the only way the lw can be satisfied is for his wife to cuckold him fairly regularly. She is not nearly as interested in it as he is, seemingly never was; and having young kids takes a toll on everyone's sex life, even the most vanilla, for several years.

I get tired of the cries of "bait and switch," which requires planning and intention to deceive. Far more likely and common is that people change over time and what one thinks one will always want to do, especially if only to please one's partner, in the first flush of love, often cools once the shiny has worn off and real life gets in the way. Perhaps partner A really meant it when he said, during the courtship phase, that although he's never been monogamous in any previous relationship, he wants to be monogamous in this one because of the great love he has for partner B, but 10 years in, he has realized that he really isn't wired for monogamy. Is that bait and switch? People change over time. Almost no one is exactly the same at 55 as they were at 22. Expecting that people will never change and accusing them of deceit if and when they change in a way that isn't to your liking, is childish.

Sometimes one member of a couple doesn't change, while the other does; sometimes both change, moving in opposite directions. This is unfortunate, even sad, especially if they still love each other, or if there are kids, particularly young kids. They need to have a difficult and honest conversation about what they each want, what they each say they NEED (not the same as want), and what they're each realistically willing to compromise. They have to decide if they are going to be a able to stay together without either or both feeling immense resentment--or whether they want to stay together at all.

But blaming one (or the other) for bait and switch or for not being clear enough over a decade ago is counter productive: not only does it not solve the problem, but having laid all the problems at the feet of one partner as having been deceitful and manipulative or stupid and selfish isn't likely to set the tone for compromise and clear-headed thinking and loving communication.

85

As several people have mentioned, setting up a successful kink session is time consuming.
At the same time, many (most? nearly all?) women tend to be much more selective in their sexual partners than men.
Add in young children and you've gone from difficult to well neigh impossible.
Perhaps if Mr. Cuck would purchase Ms. Cuck a sensual massage from an extraordinarily handsome masseuse on occasion this would fit the bill? No PIV, but maybe he'd use a toy or a tongue? Would remove several layers of difficulty and up the attractive factor significantly.

86

And while you're at it, maybe he could actually be a gay man and provide Mr. Cuck with the the "peggin" he knows he really wants. LOL

87

My advice for CHURN:

1) Get someone to watch the children so the two of you can have a full-day, honest conversation about meeting your kink desires.

2) During that conversation, propose a day each week (or a day each month, depending on the balance between your cravings & the difficulty of logistics) when you arrange things (sitters, etc) so she has time to relax, shower, eat a good lunch, dress, primp, etc., and then goes out for the evening. What she does with her evening is entirely up to her (costs paid by you), as long as she regales you with a fun story the next day in bed (a "Scheherazade-like tale of wild sex," as BiDanFan said @46).

3) Make it clear that you hope in the long run (within five or ten years) she will feel comfortable making some of those stories come true, some of the time. Discuss whether you want a code word for when the stories are true.

4) Make it clear that if she needs to vent about what actually happened on her night out, you'll be there for her like a real partner, and not quibble about losing your story for a night -- as long as she puts in a good faith effort to tell sexy stories most of the time.

5) If she refuses your offer, indicate that you're very disappointed and ask for marital counseling to go over the proposal with outside assistance. If she refuses marital counseling or if the counseling goes nowhere (or if she accepts the offer but never actually follows through), then start the discussion of divorce.

I think it's a reasonable proposal. I think if his current wife isn't up for it, then they should divorce and he'll be able to find another woman who likes the proposal.

FWIW, I do also think Traffic Spiral @31 is right to suggest CHURN assess whether his kink could be managed with simpler conditions, like dating a married woman with a good sex life and accept her talking about her sex with her (consenting) husband as cuckolding CHURN. If he can get his brain on board, that could be a reasonable path forward.

88

Oh, another option --

CHURN could disguise himself. The disguise doesn't have to fool anyone; it just has to make him feel like he's dressed as someone else.

He arranges for a sitter for their kids, then picks up his wife at a bar, giving her a different name. He takes her to a hotel and fucks her silly with a strap-on (assuming small penis humiliation is part of his kink). During their sexual encounter, she describes in detail about how sex with her husband is unsatisfying and inadequate and this is so much better.

The next day, she tells her husband (in their bedroom) about her fun night out with her mystery man.

89

CHURN -
getting found out, avoiding STDs - those issues can be managed. If she's willing to manage them, you'll just have to work together to figure out what the answers are. If she's unwilling to, then I think you have the right to be upset.

90

About FREED: I would agree with Dan that the exact reason the LW thinks his kink is strange -- its transgressive nature -- is at least part of the reason it excites him. People like to be naughty. People like to be different. People like to break the rules. This manifests for everybody in different ways, of course, and for some people that means it feeds into their kinks. Obviously this is not an all-encompassing explanation, but a partial explanation is better than none at all.

91

Ms Cute, after I approve of your post for reminding me of Charlotte Lucas, would you care to polish the lorgnette for me before I use it? I assume you have noticed the cause.

Ms Muse - You weren't around when it was established, but this one boils my blood even faster than using "me and my husband" as the subject of a sentence or substituting "lay" for "lie".

Ms Erica - Very Kate Bush in reverse. You should write a novel.

92

@91 I'm not sure to what you're referring...

93

Ms Muse - to clarify, #91 was begun before #90 was posted. I was referring to an occurrence that really frosted my cupcakes (and I have no idea why I use that as an expression of an extreme negative, as I suspect many people would think that a positive) about three or four years ago. I would not be at all surprised if you spotted what has set me off today.

94

ooh - and I started #91 before #92 was posted.

95

Also -- unfortunately, I am often guilty of ignorance where "lay" and "lie" are concerned. I use my gut, and I have no idea if it's right or wrong about this. I would lie down, but I would lay the book on the table first.

I fall back on my sprachgefuhl. This is a lovely German loanword that means, as per M-W, "an intuitive sense of what is linguistically appropriate" (introduced to me by the venerable Kory Stamper). It's like a sense attuned to language. Like number sense, the level of one's sprachgefuhl varies from person to person. I like to think mine is quite developed, but who knows? Can one really asses oneself on something like that?

96

@89 didn't capitalize "getting?" Ending a sentence on a preposition?

97

Oh, the period instead of the comma.

98

I mean the comma instead of the period.

99

Wait, I misread that. No comma instead of a period. I'm still confused.

100

100!

101

Congratulations, Muse. I’m just listening to a Travelling Wilbury’s song called ‘Congratulation’,
I don’t think any parent is ready for what kids do to your life. Then multiple kids, well you get very finely tuned. And yes, so much self sacrifice, for what feels like forever. That’s the job, though it’s not forever.
Kids grow quickly, they need however very specific care at certain ages. This man is avoiding his work here, because yes, we all give up wishes dreams sleep ffs.. for years, once kids arrive.
Why does a man think his kink,/ which he hasn’t really needed to satisfy his sexuality, because here he is years later with two small children/ is that important when it’s the work of small child rearing he needs to think about. I pity his wife, a man like this around when she’s got little children.
Late, your kids are older, different conditions apply. Things between adults can be loosened, divorce, not such a super loss for older kids. Long as both parents are cordial etc. By early adolescence kids are moving away from parents anyway.

102

Don’t you see this is what wives/ mothers have been complaining about, since forever. Men thinking their sacrifices around child rearing don’t have to equal Women’s.
He’s the Man, after all. And with that comes certain bonuses. In the home in the office on the playing field.
Even in the White House.

103

The wife may feel very differently when her children are off at school, not so underfoot and needy. Now is not the time.

104

@69 CMDWannabe: WA-HOOO! Congratulations on scoring this week's Lucky @69 Award, and svore its decadent riches! However, whould you wish to decline the honor, I shall bestow the Lucky @69 Award to LavaGirl@70. :)