Two LW’s who chose mismatched partners. LW2 is stuck more than LW2 because she went ahead and produced a child. The BDSM aspect is actually a distraction...the real issue is two people who want/need different things, and in this case the thing happens to be sex. Something’s gotta give and there are no easy comment section answers. Get your asses into counseling!

Sheesh I wish we could make corrections and get our italics/bold face type back! “LW2 is stuck more than LW1”

In the old days. They called it the 7 year itch...

@2 yes to corrections and yes to threading...what is this 1996? Why can't I reply directly?

My advice for introducing new things is baby steps and praise.

Will he read some short erotica you pick out (or write) for him, to explain what you find arousing. Will he watch some well-chosen BDSM porn, while you kneel naked at his feet and stroke his cock? Can he commit to giving you a weekly paddling, where you coach him lightly on intensity -- and share enthusiastic vanilla sex afterwards? Not everyone wants to start at a dungeon.

Baby steps and patience will help you see over time whether the two of you are on the same team.

Note that you can bring out someone's inner dom, but no one will ever be your fantasy dom. So make sure you leave room for the dom to relax and have fun.

Husband needs to get over himself and learn how to please his wife. It's going to take some work to make him understand the stakes.

Learning how to dominate my wife how she likes has resulted in some personal growth even. (Lucky for her I've been reading savage Love since well before we met, so I had some preparation—thanks, Dan!)

I am a fairly shy person with a physical disability. There's not really a good excuse for not being able to do it. It may seem awkward or unnatural at first, if it's not in your personality. Maybe some people can't get over that hump, but people who don't try definitely won't!

I think this weekly column is what quite a few of us long time Savagistas have learned to appreciate over the years: a much-needed take on relationships and sexuality, supported and often delivered in an extremely witty manner.

I’d also like to see some practical advice for women and others in such situations: how to introduce and integrate your kink, your submissiveness in this case, with your long time partner. (Apparently EP @ 5 and malxeh @ 6 have already touched on this.)

Being there myself I can see how hard it would be to change dynamics, even if only for temporary play time, when you are in a long-term, well-established relationship. I agree that going to a different location where different rules may apply and one is encouraged to step outside of their everyday persona can be a very logical place to start.
Homework may prove a bit trickier, yet often more rewarding.

"...he has it backwards: he risks losing you if he doesn't go".

While I would advise him to try it (he might learn or even come to like it), but the essential thing isn't that /he/ go, but that the LW goes (outside the relationship, whether that means to the club or etc).

LW, back off the "...I wouldn't leave if..." attitude a bit in order to advocate for what you need.

p.s. And I don't mean secretly, be honest.

p.p.s.
Oh and by "be honest" I don't mean re: your past affair.

“Like a normal human woman, she is bored after seven years of monogamous sex.” “Contrary to what we've been taught, monogamy kills it for women, in the aggregate, more than it does for men.”

A-fucking-men to Dan’s observation that no one in the advice-industrial complex seems to be addressing this very basic, very established fact or its implications. And the implications are profound: what the world tells us hetero marriage should be vs what people can actually expect from it. That’s...pretty huge. That’s a big fucking lie we’re building society on.

And it’s not that monogamy can’t be done, or done joyfully. It’s that you need to put effort into it eventually, and with a realistic understanding of how people work when the inevitable problems arise.

Instead, what we get is this entrenched moralistic bullshit about the need to know that one’s partner is “invested in them” by being faithful; or women (see yesterday’s letter) feeling sick at the thought of their partner with someone else, when all they’re going to do in the long run, statistically speaking, is take their partner’s loyalty for granted and blame them when they get bored of them after X number of years. We condemn so many men who cheat, when the root cause is their partners’ fading interest and neglect.

Not that men should get a free pass. The challenge, as per these letters, is recognizing their partners’ evolving interests, and rolling with them, embracing them. I think that’s what love and commitment mean. But it requires the woman recognizing her part in it—being self-aware and honest, and appreciating her partner’s efforts, and working within his limitations as well. Because that was her side of the bargain. Blaming him for her boredom and shutting down is the easy way out. And unfortunately, socially, we give women the moral ammunition to do this, and then blame the husband when things reach a crisis.

Not that I’d know anything about it. Just the observations of an impartial observer.

Sorry, that last bit isn’t relevant to these letters, it was just an extension of my rant. The LWs are clearly self-aware, and their husbands/partners need to do some growing. But hopefully the LWs are a little bit compassionate and patient with partners who did not expect or want these developments, and who were not in any way prepared for them by a society that is wilfully blind to how female sexuality works.

My impression is that this is only one letter but it has the wrong kind of paragraph break in it so it looks like two letters.

This is also an interesting letter for the well-known "let's switch the genders" game. We had the letter from the male cuckold (married with two little children) whose wife was not interested indulging her husbands fetish anymore. Here we have a female BDSM bottom (married with one little child) who wants her husband to top her, but the husband is not interested in BDSM. Looks very similar to me. Young couple with young kid(s), one partner wants "difficult" sexual things but the other partner is not interested. Only the genders are flipped.

I really appreciate this column for actually discussing the "If he would just do his fair share of the housework or if she would just have a glass of wine" phenomena that seems to permeate sex advice. Even Dan will usually ask the men if they doing their share of the housework (I realize that this is really more about respect and helping their partner relax since it is usually about being tired), but we really are fed the line that that sort of thing will revamp someone's sex life.

If doing stuff around the house was really an aphrodisiac, I would be having sex 4 times a day. Before I realized that this was total bull, it really did depress me when I tried everything stupid articles would say and saw no change.

Eh. It doesn't sound like boredom to me--it sounds like a fundamental mismatch. She's realized that she's kinky and poly, and he isn't. That's bad news.

The question is: What now? For now, the LW should continue on her present course of trying to gently encourage the husband. But she should also realize that it's not likely to work, and start seriously thinking about what divorce would look like, and whether it's better or worse than her current situation.

If you want monogamy to work, you've got to find a way to explore your sexualities and grow together over time. This couple isn't doing that. They probably aren't going to figure it out either, from the vibe this letter gives off.

Good luck, and probably better luck next time, L-dub!

What we don't know is whether this is a case of can't or won't. Either way, I see the trend, and am just thankful not to have any stake involved.

Registered European: They aren't the same at all. Finding a suitable sex partner, then going out and having sex with them, all to get your spouse off is a huge ask, entailing tons of effort and risk. A spanking takes a few minutes and not that much effort.

The gender-flip was actually discussed in the comments for the last one, and men agreed "yeah, being told to go out and find someone is a pretty big ask - especially if I'm busy with kids at home." For guys it's more the "get shot down repeatedly because 'please fuck me because it turns my wife on' isn't a very popular request" issue, but still. Stop trying to create unfair treatment by comparing two completely dissimilar things when the gender-flipped version of the exact same thing was already brought up.

TS @19 "A spanking takes a few minutes and not that much effort."

From the letter: "a butt plug and a slap on the ass does not a Dom make." Apparently, a few minutes spanking is not enough for the LW, she needs a "real Dom". If the husband does not have that in him, he will not be able to provide the LW with what she wants, even with a lot of effort.

I don't agree that these two things are "completely dissimilar".

I'm on the "one letter writer, one bad/wrong paragraph break" bandwagon.

One letter, bad paragraph break. Will get fixed.

GodDAMNit. There isn't female Viagra per se, but The Orgasmic Diet does work to increase libido. As Dan says, the effect of increasing libido will probably mean wives will cheat, but from a biological point of view, there is a remedy to waning libido in women.

Registered European, it's not just about level of effort. You're overlooking the relative risk factors. As Dan mentioned in his response to the would-be cuckold's wife, a married woman on dating apps / sites looking for additional partners risks being found out by family, friends, neighbors, professional colleagues, etc. and having the weight of thousands of years of slut-shaming come down upon them. Explaining that you're only doing such things for your husband is not an easy or welcome task. There's also the additional small but non-zero STD, pregnancy, and assault risks that go along with finding new partners. What similar risks are assumed by a reluctantly dominant husband?

so @24 "You're overlooking the relative risk factors."

Yes, you are correct, the (would-be) cuckold's wife would be taking greater risks. I didn't say that the two cases are identical in every way. Just that they are comparable in that both are couples in similar life circumstances in which one partner is asking for something sexual that the other partner finds difficult to supply.

Registered European:

Dude, men literally discussed the male version of cucking when that original letter was posted, so stop acting like you don't have a gender-switched version of it to talk about. You're either an idiot or arguing in bad faith.

TS @26 Sigh. I'm interested in how this letter will play out in the comments as compared to the male cuckold letter. That is all.

@22 Thanks for the clarification, Dan. I was wondering what was up with that.

Re. the illustration: could anyone here clarify who is cutting off their nose to spite their face? The husband by not getting fully on board? The wife for her affair? I'm just not clear on that.

@30 - agree completely. The guest comments were pretty thoughtful up to that second last paragraph, then it blew apart: 'the sooner her husband lets go of this intercourse = sex fetish of his, . . . , the sooner he'll be a real partner to his wife' contains both an unsupported armchair diagnosis and an ad hominem insult. Dan is usually pretty on point when advising writers to find a therapist who doesn't always assume it's the man's fault, too bad the guest in this topic doesn't pass that same test.

Dadddy @29 - it's not that hard to turn a GGG vanilla guy into a decent service top. He just has to be willing to listen when you explain how your body needs more intense stimulation in order to get to arousal: "Light touch feels like annoying ticking; deep pinching, biting or impact feels sexy."

Or "I love when I'm bound and can't move when you go down on me; I'll show you how to restrain me, and then afterwards I'll give you the most enthusiastic blow job."

My advice is to work first on developing his topping skills and enthusiasm, by praising him and demonstrating eagerness for sex after effective stimulation/restraint/whatever.

Also talk with your clothes on about whether to incorporate the topping/bottoming into most of the sex you have or trade off between vanilla and kinky sessions.

Then, gradually, after several months or years of fun topping (and trading off, too, if he discovers he enjoys bottoming to impact or a strap-on)...then you might try the same approach (praise & enthusiastic sex) to getting more dominance out of your partner. Read books and discuss them, give him time & space to think about it, and be open to him dominating you the way he chooses to, rather than the way you imagine he should.

edit @34 - tickling, not ticking.

mrzed @33 - how do you interpret this line from the letter: "he says he prefers sex without foreplay"?

One cannot be GGG while saying "I prefer sex without foreplay."

That said, I would scold the LW too, for this line: "He wants to make me happy but I can tell he isn't turned on doing these things. He denies it, because he's just happy to have sex at all."

If your husband is actually trying to fulfill your kinks, then don't also demand he be turned on by your kinks. Accept the gift, show how much you enjoy it, return the favor with a lot of enthusiastic sex, and let his arousal grow over time by feeding off your arousal. Guilting him for not finding your kinks inherently arousing isn't very GGG (or very smart) of you.

@36 - you answered your own question. Husband stating a preference (sex without foreplay) is no less valid than wife stating one (sex with BDSM). What matters is how they communicate these preferences and what they do about differences. Nothing in the letter makes it completely clear that one side of the relationship is doing all the work to resolve things while the other side is not making any effort.

One can be GGG while saying they prefer sex without foreplay, If they make an effort to include foreplay as part of the package when asked.

What's the deal with telling someone who's already married that they married too young? That's like Jerry Falwell telling some pregnant teen trying to get an abortion that she should have used a condom.

mrzed @37 - I wouldn't consider a prospective partner GGG if he insisted I ask him to touch me in the ways that arouse me so he wouldn't have to remember to incorporate that kind of stimulation into our regular sex life.

Another one with kids involved, guess I’ll have to read the bloody thing. You’re funny Dan. Don’t think it isn’t obvious what you are on about...

Secret affair, bad move LW. Monogamy is not for everyone, LW, and this seems to be true for more and more people. Tough you had a child before you realised your husband.. who doesn’t do foreplay, no wonder you’re bored.. was not the sexual partner or partners you really desire. Like I told the man with his “go forth and fuck other men, woman” kink, now is not the time. You have a young child, and stirring up the home with new sex stories where one parent has cold feet, is taking the focus from where it needs to be. On the family, on keeping things moving smoothly along. Now is not the time.

ericap @39 - The original letter has nothing about the husband 'insisting she ask him'. all it has is a description of her wanting stuff, him doing it but her thinking he's not that into it, him denying it, but only because he wants to have sex (as per her mind reading of him).

I'm not saying he's not part of the problem, only that on the limited evidence presented, he may be making an effort but she may just not like the result.

My main point though is that the guest judge here is pretty quick to toss in a bunch of insulting language that may not pass the sniff test if the roles were reversed. Case in point: she uses the term 'fetish' to belittle his focus on standard PIV sex. Kind of ironic to use a term that so many have had to reclaim to shoot down someone who happens to be part of the dominant paradigm.

You cheated LW1, you broke your word, and I read you don’t like this man much. Stick it out till your child is five, then look to becoming non living together co- parents. ie divorced.
. Don’t stay with a man you have such ill will for. If the love has gone, you have to own that, and start to look towards other living solutions, which would now involve a child. Conscious uncoupling.. sounds wanky, it also sounds better than bitter divorces.

What I took away was that the husband has very little sexual imagination. That's something very difficult to acquire, very slow of acquisition.

Well, now we have it. Scientific proof. I don’t remember getting bored sexually over thirty years of marriage, monogamous marriage. And when rearing kids, and all the joys and fears and chores that entails, sex was only one part of the whole ‘Family’ story. It all can get boring, and it all can be very emotionally satisfying as well. It’s about choice and compromise.

Then I didn’t sleep every night with my husband, in fact we lived in different houses, two minutes walk apart. Cheaper housing in the hills. Then.
What are the variables in this scientific study? Did all couples sleep together every night.
Lots of ways people can conduct their monogamous domestic lives.

All relationship structures take effort and time and energy then pleasure and pain are returned.

mrzed @43 -- I was objecting to your claim @37 that "One can be GGG while saying they prefer sex without foreplay, If they make an effort to include foreplay as part of the package when asked."

That may be adequate to ward off divorce, but it's not GGG.

Also, I think you're incorrect when you say that PIV without foreplay is "standard PIV sex."

I think it's common for a straight married man to make the effort to figure out some kind of sexual touch that helps his wife feel receptive. His technique may lose its effectiveness after a number of years (gotta keep switching things up a bit!), but at least he's trying.

Saying "I prefer sex without foreplay" seems aggressive and nasty to me, like saying "I don't care if you're aroused when I stick my dick in you."

I laugh every time Dan rants about marrying too young. Only people with relationship problems are writing in, right? And, if I marry at 20 yeah I might have a divorce (or two) more under my belt than if my first marriage was at 35, obviously.

Mr Ddy @28 - I'm afraid the zoo is closed for repairs.

A Bradshaw Award for Ms Erica (for the newcomers, it's a reference to Mrs Dalloway). But I'll pay her the compliment of assuming that at least she advocates doing it openly and with the permission of the subject.

I understood Dan's comment about marrying "too young" to be more of a PSA than advice for the letter writer.

Dadddy @30, I understood that point about ""In straight culture, people tend to define sex as intercourse" as "define sex exclusively as intercourse," and other kinds of sex as, well, something else, but not "sex." See "I. Did. Not. Have. Sex. With. That. Woman. (But there were a few blowjobs involved, tbh.)" And all the kids having anal sex to preserve their virginity.

@53: Thank you!

@30: Some women can have five orgasms from half an hour of intercourse alone? Lucky them. The majority of women can have zero orgasms from intercourse sans foreplay. Outliers don't set best practices.

The guy is vanilla so, as others have noted, it seems that moving slowly is the way to go. I would have to go back and re-read but it seems like she's not proposed going to a club of some kind, which is not going to be something that is going to appeal to a vanilla guy. Instead, she would propose booking time at a dungeon. Work with a dominatrix, have her show him the ropes (literally and figuratively). Then spend some time together without her in the room. Book a follow-up session, and more. Then see if he digs it. If so, bring the exploration back to the house. If he's not into it, dump him.

Griz is late in the comment thread after celebrating her hitting the Double Nickel yesterday. :)
I've got a lot of catching up to do with reading this week's Savage Love, Dan's, and everyone's responses.
Who's up for the Lucky @69 Award this week? Tick...tick...tick...

@1 DonnyKlicious: Congrats on being first!

@WTHT: Good luck with your spouse. I hope it works out for the better.

Late @11, I disagree. We don’t blame the men if marriages break down, especially those of us who have lived thru them. Also, we were all children, and unless we came from the small percentage of families where shit didn’t go down, we knew what family life was life, from a child’s perspective.
I agree when the talk becomes nagging and people take each other for grated. Take a hike when that happens. Remind one’s partner that you being present can’t be taken for granted.
Yes it takes effort, marriage, nuclear family life, and that’s where the problem is.
It takes too much effort under a fake structure, one which has evolved to suit capitalism. Hence so many now seeking other ways to conduct family, in all its representations, life.

For all his faults, my husband trained me not to nag him. Pity he didn’t train himself or listen when I pointed out the hypocrisy.
Adults need to try to be polite to each other, especially in the family, around children. All that guilt imposing shit, that’s what kills love and desire.
Sure, the nuclear family is a pressure cooker, it’s not the people involved only to blame for shitty behaviour, it’s also the structure, and it’s important to remember that.

So the seven-year itch is a thing.
That said, it sounds like in this case, the problem was marrying too young. She's not bored with him because women just get congenitally bored in relationships -- again, this is a trend, not an inevitability -- she's bored because he's boring. Also, she seems to be one of those naturally non-monogamous people, who followed the script and committed to a monogamous relationship anyway. These two issues sound sufficient in and of themselves to answer her "why am I bored" question without simply saying "because this is common."

I guess I'm lucky, or I chose wisely in (subconsciously) prioritising sex and desire in my long-term relationships. They had their unsolvable problems, but a tapering off of sexual desire was not one of them. I suspect it's the women who "use sex to get relationships" instead of the other way around that this happens to. Kids also seem to be a huge factor; have we had any letters from men in childless relationships whose wives went off sex with them? It makes perfect sense: when a child comes, pregnancy and recovery from childbirth and exhaustion from taking care of a pudgy ball of 24-hour screaming need kill off her libido, but have markedly less effect on his. He is still horny as often as he was prior to the child(ren), but since she isn't, his requests for sex feel unreasonable and selfish to her. Once that period is over, she has grown to view sex with her husband as a reluctant chore. Her libido has returned, but not for the guy who wouldn't stop pestering her while she was busy taking care of small kids. I wonder if women whose husbands respect the new-kids-no-libido phenomenon and just get through it with masturbation escape this fate?

Curious @8, I agree. If she asks him to do a thing but tells him she won't leave if he doesn't do it, what incentive does he have to change the status quo? Perhaps she should say, "I need to be dominated. Either you can GGG up or you can let me go to a fetish club once a month to be dominated, no sex." I agree with EricaP that they should take baby steps, but he has to be willing to take them.

Late @11, yes. This could be publicised to tell men that yes, this IS a common thing; she may get bored; fifty years of missionary sex might be perfectly fine with many men but few women. And you're right that the result for many men is that they cheat, so it's also on women to be proactive about what they need and make the effort to stay interested to stop their husbands from straying.

RE @14, is the husband in this case doing 90% of the child care? Did she tell him before they got married that she's a sub and that this is a very important part of her sexuality? Did he indulge her in BDSM before they married, just not afterwards? The answer to all of these questions is no, so we don't have an equivalency with last week's cuck.

TOG @16: "It doesn't sound like boredom to me--it sounds like a fundamental mismatch. She's realized that she's kinky and poly, and he isn't." Yes -- that's what I was trying to get at. I think he owes it to her to try a bit harder, but if he just doesn't enjoy Domming, perhaps they are best off admitting they got married too young, before they knew themselves, and call an amicable split.

Dadddy @29: Raises hand. I would describe myself as someone who has successfully been converted into a Domme. This happened as a result of submissive partners who gradually and patiently incorporated their kinks into a mostly vanilla sex life that included their indulgence of mine (namely, gender play). I may have had little organic interest in tying someone up and spanking them while pegging them, but seeing their joy at these activities became the turn-on for me. This is very different from expecting someone to endure pain, humiliation, sensory deprivation or what have you in an attempt to convert someone (of any gender, ahem) from vanilla to sub. "Watch me squeal in pleasure while you administer pain" is a much lesser ask than "endure pain (etc) for my benefit."

Dadddy @30/MrZed @33, I thought that observation was, pardon the pun, bang on. Many straight men are so blinkered. Sorrynotsorry if you're offended by hearing that truth.

MrZed @43: The term "fetish" is accurate, if it is defined as an act or item that someone cannot become aroused or enjoy sex without. This man cannot enjoy any form of sex other than vanilla PIV. The only way that does not qualify as a fetish is that PIV is common -- but PIV to the exclusion of everything else is not typical or reasonable, and I think it is fine to call it out as such. If he thinks of PIV as his "fetish" he might find it easier to put her fetishes, her needs, on a more equal footing.

Lava @46, yes. Perhaps this is common but it is not a foregone conclusion. Men should not just say "well, women get bored, nothing to be done but split up or cheat."

EricaP @49: "Saying 'I prefer sex without foreplay' seems aggressive and nasty to me, like saying 'I don't care if you're aroused when I stick my dick in you'." Exactly. He's saying "your enjoyment is completely unimportant." That is not a valid "preference."

Slomo @52-@53, yes to both. Xiao @54, yes too.

Surfrat @55, I think a club would be a good idea because they can observe without participating. She can point out when other couples are doing things she would like done to her. They can watch and discuss. Then they can try things at home.

Griz @56, what is a double nickel?

I do agree that WTHT needs to drop her wish that her husband not just dominate her, but get turned on by dominating her. He's not into that sort of thing. If it's important that her partner be just as into it as she is, she needs a different partner.

That said, it's reasonable for her to expect that he at least pretend he's turned on by dominating her (or at least not turned off), just as she's been pretending to enjoy their foreplayless fucking.

BDF @61 "RE @14, is the husband in this case doing 90% of the child care? Did she tell him before they got married that she's a sub and that this is a very important part of her sexuality? Did he indulge her in BDSM before they married, just not afterwards? The answer to all of these questions is no, so we don't have an equivalency with last week's cuck."

Answer to questions 2 and 3 is indeed no. From this week's letter we don't know anything about the percentage of childcare that the husband is doing, so I'd say the answer to question 1 is "unknown".
But, again, I'm not saying that both cases are fully equivalent. Just that they are "comparable" as summarized in @25.

Well, RE @64, I think the great many questions to which the answer is "no" -- including, as other commenters have said, does spanking/tying up his wife expose him to potential STIs, pregnancy and shaming -- render the two situations not comparable. The only similarity is you have one partner who wants their other partner to do something and another partner who does not want to do the thing. In one case, the ask is reasonable, and in the other it is not; however, in one case the ask is for something new and not previously agreed upon, and in the other it is not. So, honestly, there are so few similarities here that I can't see why you would bring the other situation up. Yes, sometimes it's the wife who's more kinky and sometimes it's the husband; we already knew this.

BDF @65 I was curious if this LW would get comments of the sort that last week's cuckold got, basically "forget about the complicated sex for now and and focus on your child".
And she did: see LavaGirl @42.

RE @66, there you go then.

If anything, this letter is more similar to last week's "I want my wife to finger me and she refuses" letter, because unlike Mr Cuck, no third parties are required in either situation; both involve newly discovered kinks; and both involve acts which are, or are perceived as, somewhat dominant being requested of people who are not dominant. The prevailing reaction to both appears that the spouse was being unreasonable in refusing to be GGG, but if they refuse, workarounds should be investigated (butt plugs/solo play for Mr Finger, D/s play with a different Dom for WTHT). I don't see anyone scolding WTHT for "badgering" her husband; that may be partly a function of Mrs Finger having clearly stated ass play was a "hard limit" while Mr WTHT just appears lazy. But it might also involve a view that men are obligated to step up and be dominant while women have no such duty.

About "step up and be dominant". Is being dominant like an orientation? You (BDF @61) talked about "being converted into a Domme". But were you actually "converted" or did you always have an "inner Domme"?

I am vanilla and occasionally very lightly submissive. I have no desire to be dominant and never tried it, I think it would be completely impossible for me. (Apart from unconvincingly faking it while feeling bad about it mayb.) So I feel that being dominant is like an orientation which I don't have.

She did cheat, everybody seems to be slipping past that. He’s a nasty lover, and was he ever better. And yes, they have a small child.
I think she should stop having sex with him, and explain why. Putting up with being treated like she’s just there for his pleasure, like he’s paying her, has to stop. Close down all sex, and talk.

Shit, sorry. RE jumped in. Won’t take the prize this week, Grizelda.

It is comparable RE in that they have a child, and the mother of this child has written in trying to plan whatever to satisfy her sex. What, she goes out and has another affair. Or stop and think what this underground energy is doing to her child. Kids pick up from energies around.
Her man is not into it, he’s not even into being a decent vanilla lover. The LW writes like she has to stay married because they have a child. She cheated. She sounds like she really doesn’t like this man. Any man who doesn’t bother to warm a woman up, I don’t like either.
How they proceed is not by her finding ways to get him interested, in her play desires, because he’s way back in the dark ages with looking after a woman’s pleasure. These two need to look honestly at how they behave sexually to each other, maybe with a therapist helping.

A propensity is not an orientation RE.

It’s called a kink for a reason. People don’t have to be either D or s, most people until those books came out, didn’t even know what it was.

I'd think there was a time in the history of their marital sex-life when the problem, to his mind, was that she didn't offer sex frequently enough. Now she has said that her interest has waned because the sex is too dull--not mentally searching enough to arouse. It may be that he prefers 'sex without foreplay'--that he's a brusque, and quite possibly an inconsiderate, lover. It could also be that he's precipitate because sex is on the table so rarely he jumps at the chance.

With the love they profess for each other (or at least she does for him), and their family commitments, they are not going to split any time soon. I'd think that she has to compromise on frequency of sex maybe before (?) he moves on the sex's interestingness or kink. She's said to him (it sounds like something she's got out of a relationship manual) that she isn't going to leave him if he vetoes her going to a bondage club. Could she offer him a known-in-advance baseline frequency of sex--the basic, not-very-inspiring sex he likes? This could be the inducement he needs to experiment being a more assertive, a more dominant, a more perversely imaginative lover. He fears (I would think) failure here--failure, the ridiculous, ridicule. In her position, she could say that the changes in their sex lives will happen slowly, that she wants him to play a role, that she loves him as he is irl, that she likes sex--they both like sex--and that they should make a joint good-faith effort to address their incompatibilities. It is true that he's the one who needs to step up--but she's the more curious, more open-minded, better-read one who can give him the nudge to do so.

@76 Wildlife studies rarely constitute both tracking tags and camerawork.

@77~ What do yoyu base your statement on? My sister-in-law is one of the foremost authorities on black bears, and they always use tracking collars and cameras.

"Besides, the scenes inevitably end (as do all lady-dom scenes, one would assume) with the unscrupulous lady prison guard/cop/boss getting herself into a bit of a pickle, and uh oh, next thing she knows she's bent over the cot/squad car/desk [...]"

-- Dadddy, shortly before being reduced to a quivering pile of jelly by an actual Dominatrix.

Touché

Yeah RE, still that’s the attitude the LW is looking for. A dirty Dom, and Mr D knows his straps.

Doesn’t help this woman and one can hope she starts to plan her exit, in her mind.
Staying together because a child exists is not a good enough reason, because a family without much love between the parents is not much of one.

@78 Donny Klicious You caught me. I was talking out of my ass. In marine science, sometimes tracking tags HAVE cameras. I guess I just wanted to be snarky, with nothing to back it up. My bad.

I mean saying a lot of that.

Wrong thread.

This will cease at once. Mr Ddy, kindly never presume to post anything in a similar vein again. I am sure that many of the female members of the assembled company would be only too happy to permit you such liberties, but I absolutely refuse, even in jest.

I wonder how satisfied she would be with a 'real dom'. Not that her hubby does not seem to be phoning it in, he does in a lot of ways, but just as young men raised on bukkake porn and fake tits come to sex expecting unnatural performances from women (well, unlikely performances) young women raised on tumblr porn, sexy vampire movies, 50 shades etc. may have unlikely expectations of doms. Topping is a skill like any, some will have natural proclivities towards acting, aggression and the emotional intelligence to mind read their sub a little and anyone can get better with practice. However I think the vast majority of real dom/sub relationships are not busting out the thumb screws and gang-rape scenes every night, they have big elaborate scenes now and then, and more mellow sex in between (or at least less elaborate violent sex). She should definitely demand better 'performance' here in order to stay monogamous with him, but maybe keep the expectations low to start and try to appreciate him expanding his abilities. If he does, if not: fuck that guy.

I have been reluctant to post before now because I have almost too much to say about the issues raised in this letter, most of which were applicable to me in my marriage, and I was concerned that once I started typing, I wouldn't stop for hours--not that I've ever been accused of being concise--and I don't have time for that! As the old-timers amongst us know, I've told my story at length, and I don't want to bore anyone through repetition.

So I will say only that there are two separate issues conflated in this letter (and maybe in the lw's mind):

1) She's no longer sexually attracted to her husband.
2) She's kinky and her husband is not and has no affinity for her kink.

These might intersect at times, but they're really two different things. Many vanilla women get bored with the sex or lose their attraction to their husbands/long-term partners after 4-10 years. And, as I've also written about, it's really hard and unconvincing and unsatisfying for a basically vanilla person who also doesn't "get" power exchange to top in a way that a sub wants--and when it's that obvious that the other person is not at all into what they're doing, but is only doing it from the admittedly admirable goal of wanting to do what their partner wants, it is not necessarily exciting to the person whose kink is being attempted and "indulged." Or at least, that's how it was for me. My ex doesn't have a dom bone in his body, and he doesn't understand the psychological aspect that can often be part of a D/s dynamic. When he tried, for my sake, to be more dominant, he just barked orders meanly. It was painful to witness him attempting to be dominant to make me happy.

Neither of us were happy.

I don't see the point about marrying too young; plenty of people aren't that self-aware, until much later in life; some never are. Today's letter of the day featured a 39-year-old woman who still sounds as naïve as a 14-year-old. Age alone doesn't necessarily confer self-awareness or wisdom. And anyway, barring inventing a time machine, there's no purpose at all in berating the lw for having married her husband.

I'm glad to see the "do more housework" advice be debunked (even as I agree that yes, men in straight relationships should do more housework than most of them are), and I understand Late Bloomer's frustration.

Because I don't think there's an answer here, and it's both depressing and terrifying.

I have said it before, but I'll repeat that loving your husband SO DEEPLY and yet having lost all sexual attraction to him--especially if you two have young children together--is horrible. You question yourself (or I questioned myself, and I'm going to switch to first person now). I felt guilty; I felt at fault, I felt bad. I wanted more than anything to be able to feel that attraction to my husband again. For one thing, given that we had kids, it would sure as hell be convenient. But it was mystifying to me to love someone so much and no longer want to have him touch me. I don't think that my loss of attraction had much, if anything, to do with the fact that he's not only not kinky, but was (at least then) kink-averse (if not, thank goodness, kink-shaming). That was a separate issue, one in which I felt an incompatibility. But the evaporation of my sexual interest in my husband was genuinely disturbing to me.

Based on what I've read since (notably, Meredith Chivers and Daniel Bergner), I have been wary ever since my divorce, that I won't stay attracted to a man whom I initially find very sexy, and it scares the crap out of me. I haven't put it to the test, as all my post-divorce relationships have been very short-lived, and i think it's around the 4-year mark that this often kicks in. And it's accompanied by a sense of guilt, because not every woman has this same reaction, so it still leaves me feeling as if it's all somehow my "fault." But no matter where I want to lay the blame, I'm scared that I can't sustain attraction to someone and don't trust myself to make good decisions.

And it's just SAD. Which is all the more scary, because when things are objectively bad or sad, humans like to come up with explanations about how this bad thing that happened to that couple or that person was that couple/person's fault, because . . . .

Because then we feel a bit safer that it won't happen to us, if only we follow these rules. but the really scary thing, as I know from personal bitter experience is, that you can love someone with all your heart and one day, you just aren't sexually attracted to them anymore.

So then I can indict culture and society, and monogamy, but things don't change that quickly, and blah bah blah patriarchy blah blah blah. And people are unhappy. And I don't think there's really anyone to blame, nor any useful point to blaming anyone, except to feel better about oneself and more virtuous or smug about one's own choices, which I maintain, have worked, insofar as they are working, due more to luck than anything else.

@89: Ugh. Sorry for the errors. Wish there was an "edit" feature here.

nocute @ 89
Thank you for your account.

@87 Mr Venn, I wouldn’t allow such liberties from MrD, of whom do you speak....drjones is much more my style.

Though I give MrD points for trying.

Dadddy @28: "Whoever figures out how to identify the abnormal women is going to make a lot of money from book and speaking tours." I doubt it would be that difficult. Just overlay this data with the famous orgasm gap. I bet you will get a very high correlation between the women whose partners aren't making sure they come and the women who can no longer be bothered to have sex with those partners. Not to entirely blame men -- it's human nature, not male nature, to get lazy. In long-term relationships, couples tend to find the positions and routines that work best and focus on those, forgetting about the others, so even sex that's good quality is repetitive and unexciting. Add to that the typical man's higher drive and half the sex women are having is as a favour to their guy. For their part, women don't speak up; we famously expect men to be able to read our minds; we think it's rude or selfish to interrupt a man who's about to stick his dick in and ask that he get us off first, so we don't ask, and he doesn't do it, and he gets off and we get resentful. It's really not a mystery how this happens when you think about it.

Dadddy @79: Uh.... yeah. That's how all my domination scenes end. Not with the sub going down on me (again), then gleefully and gratefully making me a cup of tea while cleaning and tidying away the toys. I will join with Venn @87 in ordering you to cease this insolence at once. ;)

DrJones @88: This woman learned what she liked by having an affair with a dominant man. Not from porn/erotica.

NoCute @89, many good points. The loss of attraction issue hadn't occurred to me as I have no direct experience with it, but Dadddy's point about "don't get a dad bod" must be a factor in many of these cases. Good point also that someone who's not visibly having fun is a turn-off, so even if WTHT's husband managed to go through the motions of what she wanted, it might not be satisfying. This, plus the fact that Mr WTHT seems to consider intercourse and sex the same thing, makes me think a solution would be to find a different Dom with whom intercourse was off the table. She'd come home excited and want to fuck her husband; everyone is a winner. Thanks NoCute for sharing your story, I'm sorry things went that way for you. I agree, I'm not sure simply recognising the trend is an easy first step to finding solutions. Committing to a relationship is a gamble, in this and many other ways.

I do think the housework thing is relevant, if it's not a panacea. Doing housework won't turn on a woman who isn't attracted to you. But not doing it will make her lose respect for you, and someone who doesn't respect you doesn't want to have sex with you. Not much to gain but everything to lose.

My heart goes out to people like nocute who don't trust themselves to make long-term decisions. I guess that, for me and people like me, the absence of any presumption that we'll get our best sex--or any sex at all--in the context of a relationship means we don't face these problems, of second-guessing ourselves and compromised self-esteem, in the same ways.

I'm not sure why the housework came up in this letter. It usually comes up when guys write in wondering why their wife who has two kids under 5 and works outside the home always seems to tired to want sex. In that context, it's Occam's razor. Rule out the obvious. The fact is that children are exhausting, housework is exhausting, having a job can be exhausting, so if you're wife is too tired for sex, helping out more so she is less tired may indeed be the answer. The idea that you are more likely to have sex if you have enough energy for it and aren't stressed to the max isn't a faulty narrative, it's a specific solution to a specific and very common issue. Before you decide you are no longer attracted to your partner, make sure you aren't just in some libido killing but temporary circumstances. In this letter, that is completely irrelevant. No one is too tired from childcare, their child is only mentioned as the reason she doesn't lose her inconsiderate husband whom she is incompatible with and find someone more suitable.

Lava@42, It sounds like you are telling this LW not to worry about her crappy sex life, just focus on your kid for the next two years then get a divorce (hopefully amicably) around the time your kid is starting school and will be old enough to remember it. Having young kids doesn't negate the need for a decent sex life, and wanting foreplay, or some, any, kind of play from your husband is nowhere near the level of fulfilling a husband's cuck fantasies. I'm guessing you were in part referring to her affair, but affairs usually happen organically as a matter of proximity. We don't have any indication from this letter that she was wasting time and energy looking for an affair when she is already spread thin, so again, not comparable to the cuck letter.

Instead of/before trying to turn her husband into any kind of dom, she needs to turn him into a considerate lover. She needs for him to understand that straight to PIV sex doesn't work for her or most women and that foreplay is NOT "complicated stuff.” It does sound like he is at least willing to try occasionally, so I think whatever vanilla stuff is necessary for her to become physically aroused should be the ultimatum, and bdsm elements worked in slowly with things like the kink club being brought up as ways he could help get her turned on without actually having to put in the work he is so not interested in doing. It's human nature for people to be more amenable to ideas that they think are to their own benefit. I'm with Ms. Erica @9 and Ms. Bi @ 61 that saying he prefers sex without foreplay reads nasty, like her pleasure isn't important to him and she is basically just a hole to stick it in, and I'm saying that as part of the minority of females who do get off on penetration.

Agree, Tachycardia. Ironically, to solve her problem she needs to be more dominant. Lay down the law about what she wants. Perhaps a compromise can be reached where once a week he dominates her, once a week they have a PIV-only quickie, and the rest of the time they have vanilla sex that includes foreplay -- no PIV until she comes. If he really can't get into dominating her even for 20 minutes, once a month he lets her go see a Dom. But he still has to do the vanilla foreplay thing because really, there's no excuse to be that lazy and self centered.

Ms Lava - Good for you.

Ms Cute - I applaud your control. I do sometimes think you a little like Jane Bennet, inclined to think other people as candid as yourself and not always able to recognize a Caroline Bingley when she appears to befriend you or take your side, but the world needs people like that.

I'll throw a question into the mix about housework - does anyone think there's likely to be a difference between urbanites and suburbanites (let alone the more rural)? Those of an urban background don't have a domestic calculus which counts yardwork, and it could make for a wide range of questions I lack time to explore now.

Tachy @99, my position evolved as the thread went on, ending up suggesting she stop having any sex with her husband, and that they talk.
The critical growth age is up to five or so, it is also the most labour intensive period of parenting.
If the LW can stand up for herself, tell her husband his love making is sub par, and he’s willing to start by getting on board with the basics, ie foreplay, maybe there is a chance for these two. Watch porn together, tell him dirty fantasies. Ask him what his fear is around caressing a woman’s genitals.
If this has been the standard lovemaking, why hasn’t she spoken up before. Instead, she had an affair. However justified it might be, given her husband’s brutish ways, it’s now a hole in the fabric of their marriage. And the guilt.
Maybe she has to tell him the truth, and they go from there. Whatever.
Again, like the outsourcing kink man, the focus is off the child, for him children, and the family and on a sexual psychodrama.

We talking women subs here, cbu, and it’s a game. It’s play which activates some real and enjoyable energy, if done right.

@89 nocutename
Thank you for sharing that. I'm deeply moved.

The difference between you, nocute, and the LW, is you still loved your husband. This woman doesn’t sound like she loves her husband, and is staying with him because of the child.
There was love in your home, don’t forget that. Sexual attraction is such a difficult thing to pin down. The trouble in my marriage was a strong sexual attraction, which clouded some undealt with problems.

I think you need to lay that guilt to rest nocute, about all of it.