The number of people who think that the fact she will regret an abortion means she shouldn't have one is astonishing to me. Regret is part of the human condition and not a reliable metric for the morality or correctness of a decision. You think she won't ever regret it if she does have the child? If so, you're deluding yourself.

Also, ditto astonishment at the number of people using the word miracle. Seriously? It's not a miracle, it's a low-probability biological event. Do you say that when someone gets a really rare cancer, too?

sigh I must be in a mood today. Sorry.


God, is #14 the only person who sees right through the OP's bullshit?!

All her feigned guilt and hand-wringing is so fucking transparent. She got exactly what she wanted.

Also, Dan is right- this circumstance isn't comparable to a man removing a condom. Both are unforgivably shitty, but only one carries the consequence of deceptively and 100% without consent, saddling a man, for 18+ years with a child he never wanted nor consented to conceive. But what makes this worse is chance of saddling that child with a life of being unwanted and resented by both the father who didn't consent to having the child and the mother who resents the child because her plan to trap the father failed. This happens all the time. This is pure, unforgivably selfish bullshit.

OP and her partner will both make shitty parents. Guaranteed. She should spare everyone, most importantly the future child, and get an abortion.


Without reading all 100+ comments here (I got through about 50) —- did no one present adoption as an issue? LW gets to carry to pregnancy, LWs man gets to avoid his mistakes and spare his family. Baby of course has to live with baggage of being an adoptee, but it’s been done. Plenty of affluent white couple would love to adopt your baby, and you could probably make arrangements to visit/receive pictures, if that’s what you want LW.


Joe @97; Who knows how intentional this pregnancy is. I take this woman’s word, that she believed herself infertile. It’s the paramour, who is deceptive here;
“Oh, I can’t bear to think of not rearing my own child THEREFORE you must have an abortion.”
Seems a line to me, don’t you agree.
Dan is right, women lie. They lie because they do want to ensnare a man, and/ or have a loveee child. Nobody has ever asserted women don’t lie. Both the people are living a lie in this letter.
LW, if you can afford it, split now and rear your baby with like minded people. I’d suggest you go find a commune to join, but I fear I’m decades out.


I don't think he wants you to have a child he can't raise. He doesn't want to have a child he can't tell his wife about. Your relationship is already time-limited. Call time now and have the child you say you want.


Let's not be silly here. No abortion provider is going to let you be dragged in drugged up and give you an abortion. At best that's more your fantasy-driven cognitive bias; at worst a right wing smear.

How do you know telling his wife would break up the marriage? Maybe she's a different type of person than he tells you, or than he knows.
And if he loves you so deeply like he says, his lie of a marriage isn't worth keeping in its present form anyway.

But you two are greedy lying baby narcissistics, and I have supreme confidence that neither of you will do the most right thing. There is no Pulp Fiction fixer to whom you can drive this bloody mess in the back seat. Your choices here are stark. You two can A) continue to string out your series of self-serving lies and convolutions like the narcissistic infants you are, or B) be honest and live with the consequences you've both created, or C) you can have an abortion and flush out the little cluster of cells that has never had a brain wave much less any mental content, and then continue with your slimy cheating or move on clean and live your life better.

So A if you two are irrevocable assholes, B if you have some reserve of character to be mustered, C (plus move on) if you can take the pragmatic long view and really can't stand to hurt his family (though you'd ultimately probably be doing them a favor).


@100: You have no conception about parenthood, obviously. You have no right or perspective to deem that anyone will be "shitty parent". Your sick mind then tries to give credence to your tortured mind by equivocating that abortion is needed "most importantly the future child" because the child is 'unwanted'.

Well, dear, human emotions and perspective change as future parents realize a new human life is on the way. Suddenly the clouds part and the sun shines through as they realize boundless love and joy will soon be a part of their lives.

No, but you insist on everything is dark and you want to kill their joy simply because you are forever sulking because you never had the joy of being a father and you don't want anyone else to have a "happier" life than you.

You Jack, are the selfish one here.


Just want to say that a whole lot of the comments here saying she should not have the abortion are people who created an account just to comment on this article- they've only ever commented once and "member since 2019". There are three possible explanations: one, this is an emotional topic and the LW wrote a compelling letter so a lot of lurkers and more casual readers who were motivated to join the conversation for the first time (and welcome!); two, this was linked to some antichoice board and a bunch of them have come in to post (similar to how our discussion last week was linked to the stealthing board - vomit); three, a lot of these are the same person over again under different names.

Also I think it's funny how every time I give advice that is in the minority opinion someone has to say "this must be personal to you". As if advice in the majority opinion is not or as if I can't have strong opinions about things unless it's from something in my own life (you should hear my opinions about the 8th Doctor). FWIW, the only thing that is personal to me is in my younger life having worked with lots of families in poverty and with all sorts of both emotional and physical and congenital problems and some who were abusive- I think the default setting should be to advice people to be more reflective on what they are getting into and to destigmatize abortion rather than pretend pregnancy is some miracle (that has only ever happened billions and billions of times). Yes I know this might be the LW's last chance of getting pregnant. That is not the only way to be a mom.

And finally, you guys are aware that she wrote in asking for advice right? I think it's very good for her to get as much perspective as possible. I agree with above that she should seek a counselor with the dude, also that she should talk to an abortion counselor, and also (as I said but I'll restate) that she should seek out other single mothers of her age and income bracket and actually discuss the reality of that life. Informed decisions are the best, better than emotional ones IMO.


Please excuse me while I pop out to buy a laptop to throw out the window.


This woman wants this baby. How the pregnancy happened, motivation wise, how do some of you who are accusing this woman of deceiving him, square it with her belief in her infertility.
If you want the baby, then ffs go ahead and have the baby LW.
This man is conning you. No man who has so much love he’d hate to think a child of his would grow up without him, doesn’t in the next breath tell you to have an abortion.
He’s never leaving his wife blah blah. Loves you to pieces. Regular script.
Being a single mother, thru pregnancy etc is not without its challenges. So cut the star dusk in the eyes nonesense about this crud boyfriend of yours and go talk with a professional, and get some help sorting it out, finding your strength and focus. This is real life, and pregnancy etc are real journeys.


"He can simply say to his wife he has to make some basic financial provision for the baby--without eating into the couple's money or robbing his other children."

Oh, to live in a world in which there is anything the slightest bit simple about any of that...

Alternately, the LW can just hop on her magic carpet, fly to a new city where childcare is free and pots of money line the street. BTW some of the advice "just move to Europe!" is only a notch less ludicrous.


Saying that exposing the affair would "ruin his marriage" is a bit naive. His marriage is already ruined if he is sneaking around with another woman whom he is in love with. Just rip that band-aid off and deal with the consequences. If he cares about his family he will tell them the truth. Kids survive divorce, and his wife deserves to find someone whom she can trust.


I'm disappointed that a lot of the respondents on here seem to have no idea what it's like to live with infertility and how it can affect your relationships. It is a very painful thing to have to discuss with people and have to tolerate their pity and lack of understanding. If she was functionally infertile, that's all he needed to know unless their relationship was going in the direction of having a family together, which it clearly wasn't.

It's also not uncommon for people who are infertile to avoid relationships, or to only have relationships which are never going to end in marriage and kids, because opening up about infertility with a serious partner is just too risky and painful. So, not that surprising then that she's ended up in this relationship, which set out to be a fling.

A bit of compassion and understanding for infertility would not go amiss.


Nice back and forth. My take which no one probably cares about:

Keep the fetus. That's what you want, no reason to choose a relationship with no future over a child you want. That one seems obvious.

People have landed on the father pretty hard and it feels unfair. I get his POV of not wanting the kid because it complicates his life. There's nothing in there where he's being abusive or forcing her, he's just stating what he'd prefer. That's to be expected and as long as he accepts her choice, he's okay (not amazing but okay).

A lot depends on her ability to raise a kid on her own. She chose to engage in risk sexual behavior with a man who wasn't free to be a full-time supporter. Just as its her choice to keep the fetus, it was her choice to engage in the relationship. She needs to deal with those consequences and doesn't have a right to blow up his life.

I'd tell him "I'm having this baby. You can choose to tell your wife or not. I'll accept any financial support that you can provide but get that might not be regular/needs to be negotiated. You can decide what type of relationship you want with your child but it has to be consistent. Again, we can negotiate that as it comes up." And then she has to get down and do the work to provide for this kid.

Having kids involves sacrifice. She's likely going to make more sacrifices than most but that's the consequences of her choice to sleep with a married man. Its doable, its just not going to be easy. She's going to have to lean on other people in her life, that's what they're there for. If she doesn't have those people, she's going to need to find them.


@110 Many marriages are saved by one person cheating. It can be a way to salvage a dead bedroom relationship or it can serve as a wake-up call to deal with existing issues. Infidelity is never simple.


Lavagirl, @102, LW says:

“Having a child has always been my dream and did not seem possible due to medical issues, life circumstances, and, more recently, age....”

Like a lot of this letter, It’s not totally clear, but I read that “seem” as more of an educated guess on her part. Maybe the doctor really told her that her odds of conceiving were basically zero, in which case, yes, things would be somewhat different. But based on her feelings of guilt, and the fact she was so vague, I bet that’s not the case.

If she was as uncertain as I read it, and said “it’s taken care of”, that is deceptive.


Feeling the way that you do, there's no way you should let this guy push you into having an abortion. This is your decision to make, and you should also give him the decision about how much involvement he will have in the baby's life. It takes more than DNA to be a father and since you did mislead him about the risk, it's perfectly in his rights to decide how much of that role he wants to take on. Women can't be the only party with a right to choose parenthood, assure him that the baby is not "his" unless he takes an active role in its life. I think it would be cleaner for everyone involved if you cut off contact with this guy and maybe you will find someone who wants to father this baby.

Let him know that this is your decision and you expect and deserve nothing from him.


LW, I very much second the option to see an abortion counselor. If you have access to abortion services, they will normally have a counselor you can speak to about it. It's a huge decision.

Also, while keeping in mind that you've made mistakes, and it's okay and perhaps right to feel guilty about mistakes, you don't have to be so awash in shame over your mistake that you forget that it's your body and therefore your choice.

However, when you make a choice, I encourage you to consider all the long term consequences. Having a child as a single parent is difficult. Having a new baby is difficult in any situation. When you don't have another parent to help with immense workload, it's just really difficult. If you decide to have this child without involvement from the father, it will suck that he gets to live his life with no consequences, while you have the entire emotional and financial responsibility of raising a human. If you take this route, you've got to make up your mind in advance that you won't resent this baby for the unfair situation. It is unfair but it is not the baby's fault.

If you have the baby, the father may also choose to be involved, either financially or emotionally. Yes, that could hurt his marriage. But it his his responsibility as to figure out what he'll tell his wife, not yours. Who knows. Maybe they'll be one of those families where the wife forgives the affair and is willing to have a step child be part of their lives. Keep in mind that he may come to resent you for putting him in a difficult situation, but you will also resent him if he acts like he has no responsibility. However, only consider this option if you feel that this guy is a safe person.

Also, although both you and your affair partner are in the wrong, I get the sense that he's especially not a stand up guy. The way you phrase it that he should be the one who has more say on your choice, where are you getting that from? Is that from him? Did he say that to you? If he did, that sounds really controlling and manipulative. I would advise cutting him out of your life and blocking his access to you. I may be paranoid but women are most at risk of intimate partner violence when they are pregnant.

And, finally, please remember that low fertility is not a birth control method. This is not to shame you as you already seem to be beating yourself up emotionally. But it is important to know for the future that having a low chance of getting pregnant doesn't mean much (unless your doctor is able to give you an actual percentage, so you can compare it to birth control methods). If you have this child, please teach them comprehensive sex education. Teach them about all the different types of contraception out there. If you need help, check out


Joe, it depends on the medical reasons for believing herself to be infertile. Did a doctor tell her she has a 99% chance of being infertile? More reliable than proper condom use? Or did she just figure "it's never happened before so..." in which case she's just straight out making stuff up. Honestly the context here makes all the difference.

But setting that aside, I want to distinguish between lying and saying something "is taken care of". If she said "I'm on birth control" or "I've been sterilized" that is a lie. If she says "it's taken care of" that is not a lie. It's vague. We can criticize it as being bad communication but it's not a lie. If I told a man to put on a condom and his response is "it's not necessary" I sure as hell wouldn't then just jump on his bare dick. I'd ask him for clarity. Did he have a vasectomy? Did a doctor tell him he had a low sperm count? Etc.

Again, the analogy with stealthing would be a straight out lie. That is what stealthing is. Not poor communication, not mistakes/accidents. Stealthing is when a man lies and says he's wearing a condom but is not. The analogy here would be if a woman lies and says she's on birth control (or is sterile) when she is not. It's a lie because the other person consents to sex under a particular set of stated circumstances and then those circumstances are violated. If she simply says "It's taken care of" it's not a lie, even if it turns out to be an error.

It's also different because- almost all of the time- the man can control if there is a condom on his dick or not and he can control whether or not he cums inside a vagina or not. The woman- usually cannot control these things. If the woman lies and says she is on birth control but she is not, that's real shit and yes equivalent to stealthing, but the man can STILL control whether or not he wears a condom or cums inside a vagina. Her lie- which affects his judgement- does not prevent him from wearing a condom nor from cumming somewhere other than inside her vagina. Stealthing (saying you are wearing a condom when you are not) on the other hand does.


Everything else aside, if you go to get an abortion and give any impression that you're not sure about it or that someone else is pressuring you to do it, they will not give you an abortion.


Again, I don't know my dad and hey hey, my life isn't such shit as to wish I didn't exist. It's ridiculous all the things people adjust to that aren't entirely ideal but people wrong their hands about how the kid will feel having one half their bio lenders rejecting them. It's really an oh well their loss situation. You get use to it.


Re: 105

Jack, I'm sorry. I need to tone it down.

I just get so frustrated steadfastly agreeing that women should have the right to choose and that abortion should be legal - only to be kicked in the gut by what I see as jaded cynical politicking and a lack of spirituality and awe on the prospect of a new human life entering the world.


Nah, raindrop. Plenty of people are expressing that point of view and not being "kicked in the gut" (dramatic much? you are arguing online, not engaging in street fights). Your contributions to this thread ENTIRELY consist of you saying "what if your mom had aborted you" and then following up with your concern for a soul that you believe exists at conception- a belief not shared by me (the supposed soul you are concerned about) nor my late vaishnavite mother (whose hypothetical abortion you are referencing). Then your angry post to Jack. No one is kicking you in the gut or even responding to you at all- I believe I am the only person who has acknowledged you since you directed your comment to me, and I've done no gut-kicking- proverbial or otherwise.

As for your superstitions, the LW expressed no spiritual sentiments. Yours are important to you- they are irrelevant to others. People believe all sorts of things, and you are free to believe them and express them but not to impose them on others- a stance you appear to agree with so that's cool And on top of all that, your interpretation of spirituality is not definitive. Not all spiritual traditions believe in a soul in the first place and even those that do don't share agreement on when it begins.


EmmaLiz @117, yes, agree about the dr question (which is what I said before).

And yes, there is a difference between a bald-faced lie, and a “maybe-not-technically-lying” lie. (See Trump v Clinton). That’s why I have been using the word “deception”. According to her own letter, she is actively inviting someone to believe something she knows is untrue, at his risk, for her own convenience. Call it a lie, call it a deception, whatever you like. I personally call it just as shitty as any other kind of life.


Oops “lie”.


Thank you to the (surprisingly few) other commenters who see right through this sob-story bullshit. You have done a great job spinning this scenario, LW, to distract from what shit human beings both you and your POS "lover" are.
YOU had an affair with a married man (who sooo obviously doesn't love you, babe, sorry), YOU were not honest about not being on birth control (not just shady, but also stupid as fuck and manipulative), and YOU decided to let a guy with an entire family cum inside you fully knowing that if you did get pregnant (chances are irrelevant here), you would ruin his family's life. The fact that he's concerned about ruining his own life, and not his children's or the woman he pledged his life to, only adds to the list of reasons he's a fucking asshole. Have I mentioned he doesn't love you? He just wanted to get his dick wet and you just happened to be the closest morally-compromised, low-self esteemed, desperate excuse for a woman he could find. He's a complete monster for knowingly risking pregnancy and then expecting you to abort it to save his ass from having to pay for his own indiscretions! Wow! What a fucking loser.
He's an idiot for having unprotected sex with his mistress. Only thing I can't figure out is if you're also an idiot, or just a scammer and manipulator. You wanted this baby, didn't you? You hoped against all odds you'd get pregnant with this asshat's baby because, omg, ur just so in love. You're either one of the most naive 40 year olds I've ever encountered or one of the most successful manipulators. Congrats, you sick fuck, you got what you wanted!
Now for the abortion. Ah, let's be honest, you already know you aren't having the abortion, you just need the internet to tell you its the right thing to do and that you're so strong and brave for being a single mom! Your lack of self esteem (or skill at faking it) is truly frightening. You obviously have the final say here on whether to have the abortion and you already know that. It's your body the baby's inside, not his. I think abortion is the best choice here, not because it will save you or your immature fuckwit of a babydaddy from "being torn apart inside" (gag), but because I feel sorry for the baby if it's born. God bless any poor child that has to call you its mother. Have fun explaining to your toddler and, later, teenager that they don't have a dad because you were a dumb, selfish, desperate bitch who let a married man with no intention of ever being with you long term cum inside you. "Sorry, little Joey, you don't have a dad in your life because I have no standards for myself and made a selfish lust-powered decision to take a load from a guy who couldn't care less if you lived or died and wants nothing to do with either of us". I shudder to think about what kind of men you'll bring home around this child.
Oh, and did I mention he doesn't love you? The sooner you realize that, the better.


Custody court in America right now is where no reasonable parent should want to be, especially if the situation is messy. It's the kids who pay, often dearly. She should be concerned about having her child being raised by the guy and his wife, a very possible scenario. If she is committed to motherhood, I like the advice of keeping the baby, telling him otherwise, cutting all ties, and moving far, far away. She can tell her child the truth about his/her father much later, with reasonable contact information, and support her child's wishes at that time. Courts WILL decide how to carve up the lives of children when parents aren't well-aligned, and it can be very bad for everyone, depending on the local systems.


Yup. Your body, your choice. You want this baby. If your lover doesn't want it, assure him you will raise the child on your own. Yes, you implied you were on birth control. But he made the decision to cheat on his wife and not use condoms -- which he should have been using for STI reasons even if, hello, birth control was 100% perfect which it isn't. Yes, keeping the baby is selfish -- you're completely justified because it's your self this baby is growing inside. If he wants to help raise the child, why can't he? If he can sneak away from his wife long enough to have a relationship with you, he can sneak away long enough to have a relationship with you and his child. Or, gasp, he could person up and confess to his wife. You'll see his true character when you tell him of your decision. And be consoled -- he's not going to be person you love most for much longer. That baby will. Keep the baby, lose the CPOS.


@Joe I was reiterating the point because in your post at 97 you seemed to indicate (sorry if I misinterpreted) that you were sure that she had been deceptive. I don't see that this is true, regardless. If she told them she's taking care of it and they assume this means she's on birth control when actual she meant that she's infertile (told as much by a doctor) then that is not deception. It's only deception if they asked for clarity and she lied. I don't think bad communication is deception. I think what makes the difference is if she actual was told she was medically infertile or if she just assumed this. Not the extent to which she clarified the ways in which she had "taken care of it".

If it helps to flip the genders, the analogy in this case isn't of stealthing but of a man who says the same "I've taken care of it" and I assume he's had a vasectomy when actually he means he is sterile because of his prior battle with testicular cancer. See? The only equivalence to stealthing would be if she actually lied, not if she's just being vague. I don't think it's deception. It's only deception if the statement "taken care of it" is untrue- which would be if she had not in fact been told she was infertile in the first place. Or if she lied out right and said she was on bc. It does seem from your post @97 that you disagree with this, but sorry if I've misinterpreted you.


Just to add, whichever she chooses the relationship will end, because if she bows to his pressure to forgo her one chance at motherhood she will resent him and hate him. So she should at least walk away from this with the baby. And he should go get a vasectomy.


@121: The soul is born at the moment of conception. That's a belief I have shared by billions of others. But any woman should be at liberty to abort the fetus. If such precepts are copasetic with you, then you're getting weirdly defensive.


1) Is she just assuming this baby is healthy, in the way she assumed she couldn't conceive? The same medical issues that can cause infertility can cause birth defects in the rare event of conception. Has she screened for possible issues?

2) It honestly sounds to me like she wants an abortion but doesn't want to be responsible for it. As in, her "dragged drugged to the clinic" scenario sounds akin to women with hang ups whose rape fantasies are a way of having their dick and considering themselves chaste, too.

3) Is it the hope of possibly having a child she's clinging to, or the hope of being with the man she's admittedly in love with?


EmmaLiz @8, interesting perspective. I'd be more inclined to agree if she had actively lied and told him she couldn't get pregnant. But she didn't; she implied she was using birth control. "I've told men, when asked about birth control, that 'there's nothing to worry about' or 'got that covered' if I felt comfortable not using a condom. I know that the assumption was "she's on the pill or something" rather than 'she has a negligible chance of getting pregnant naturally,' but the latter is too complicated/painful to discuss early in relationships and I honestly don't think much about it after trust is built because it is that much of a non-issue." Agree with Parker @9 that, before going bareback, Lover should have asked more questions about what birth control she was using to assess the risk. He didn't, he just took the risk. She did not commit an ethical violation sufficient to obligate her to terminate the pregnancy.

However, you're right that she needs to consider all the things every accidentally pregnant woman must consider: can she, financially and emotionally, raise this child on her own? If she can't, and she can't bear having an abortion, perhaps she could put the child up for adoption. That would not only give the baby a better life but solve her ethical dilemma of her lover's "having a child he cannot raise." I doubt she would want to go through having this "miracle" child and not keep it, though. And since she would regret an abortion for the rest of her life, I think she should have the kid if it is at all practicable.


Billions of people disagree with you as well raindrop, so it really doesn't matter what you believe since it's not about you. The LW expressed no such belief, neither did I, neither did Jack, neither did my mother. My mother btw believed in a soul, each a part of a larger whole, that is completely separate from the body which it momentarily inhabits and which takes possession of a body at the moment of birth and leaves to another at moment of death, and she's ever bit as religious as you. So her answer to the question of where a soul of an aborted embryo went? It never had one in the first place. The idea of either creating or destroying a soul would be ludicrous to her and the idea of it existing in eternal torment or peace would likewise seem a fairy tale. As for myself, I don't believe in a soul at all, and as for spirituality, I really haven't a tradition but of the two that inform me the most, one rejects the existence of a soul as a basic tenet. If we were to add together all the billions who agree with your conception of a soul against those who do not, you are in the minority opinion. But as I said, none of this matters since it's not about you or about me, despite your feigned concern.


@127 EmmaLiz, I think we pretty much agree, sorry, I guess I was unclear in @97. Only thing we may disagree about is that I would guess, based on her language, that the dr did not tell her she was 99% infertile or any such thing.


Spatabrat @119 - thanks for sharing your experience. You seem to have turned out fine!


@126 EmmaLiz, I think maybe you missed where I talked about this in @114 (not @97). Sorry, this thread has gotten too long, and now I’m making it longer.


Oddly enough I had almost exactly the same issue. I am married and had an affair with a married woman. She said it was nearly impossible for her to get pregnant. She and her husband had to spend a lot of money in fertility treatments before they conceived. I used a condom... most of the time. The 2nd time that I came inside her she got pregnant! She always wanted a 2nd child. I told her I would support any decision she made of course.

Now we've been married to reach other for 11 years and have a blended family.


I think, this is a time when it should just be acknowledged that there is no correct answer. There's no turning back time; there probably isn't another chance for you to be pregnant, and your partner will be emotionally devastated to either see his child be raised without a father or to break up his family.

There is no answer that doesn't leave someone without life-altering emotional trauma. Perhaps the least traumatizing would be to tell the wife, and find a way for your partner to be part of his child's life while maintaining his family life - ideally as at least cordial associates between LW and the child and the partner and his family; but who knows how difficult that would be fro the wife.

Personally, I would advocate for giving the child up for adoption. Single-parenthood should be avoided at all costs. We've got a weird problem in this country where there are plenty of unwanted babies and plenty of wanting parents, but our taboo against adoption means that we don't match these people up.


Thanks for standing guard on this thread and beyond. I also noticed an unusually high number of total newcomers joining this forum. I think another commented also pointed to “miracle” keeps appearing for no reason.

Raindrop @ 105
“You have no conception about parenthood, obviously. You have no right or perspective to deem that anyone will be "shitty parent".”
What are your credentials in this regard? All you ever say about yourself is, “it’s complicated.”
As for me, I was married for some 20 years, kids in mid-late 20’s, all are doing well, thanks for asking.


Dashing @ 136
Oddly enough you have just opened an account here, enabling you to express your likely fabricated no abortion happy ending story.


@139 Ding - ding - ding - ding - ding - ding - ding!


Raindrop, this is not a religious forum. Lots of anti abortion threads out there you can talk to others about souls and all that. Not your body, not your choice.
Interesting EmmaLiz, re these new commentators.


Firstly, it doesn't sound to me like LW knowingly deceived her lover, but on the other hand it also doesn't sound like a doctor ever sat her down and told her "you are 100% infertile" which means that she made the assumption herself and it turned out to be wrong. Her only defense is that she has been having unprotected sex for many years without anything happening, which would of course support her in thinking that it was impossible for anything to happen. Rather than outright lying, I would compare it to a man who has had a vasectomy, but doesn't go to any of the controls to make sure it actually worked (which in about 1 out of 100 cases it won't). Definitely stupid and irresponsible, but not an outright deception.

Secondly, saying that having the baby will blow up his family and having an abortion will not, is based on the idea that the truth about the affair will never come out another way or the man won't find another way of screwing up his life. And to put it bluntly, we have already seen how he is with risk management.
I've read Dan for a long time and I won't judge him simply for having an affair without knowing anything about him, but I will come down on him like a tonne of bricks for being stupid about it. If an extramarital child could destroy his wife and kids the way he claimed, then regardless of what LW said or didn't say to him he should never have stopped using condoms. Not out of mistrust for her but as an extra precaution in case whatever birth control, he may or may not have thought she was on, failed.
And I'm just dying to know if, before they started having unprotected sex, he asked for them both to get tested, or if he was also willing to risk bringing an STI home to his wife.

Thirdly #83 is my favourite comment in the whole thread.


@ 139 it's cause I had experienced something very similar. I glossed over the anger, lies, pain, divorce drama, financial hardships that happened in the 10 years since our baby was born.
Is everyone's first post suspect? That would be silly but I guess this is the Internet and silly is everywhere.
The other thing I didn't address is any guy that has unprotected sex, regardless if what he's been told by his partner, should take ownership of the consequences of that. How does he know she wasn't banging anyone else? In my situation I was concerned with that, as well as if her ex-husband was doing the same thing we were. I could have given my ex-wife an STD and it would have been my fault.


It’s not inevitable the baby will be raised without a father, Sportlandia @137. The LW may find a wonderful single man who loves her and is more than happy to be a father to her child.
It’s a hard call LW, it often is for a woman when she becomes pregnant. Hard calls which need to be made under the glare of sunlight, not in pixie love land. He doesn’t love you past you being his woman on the side. Now you’ve upset his apple cart.


Replying to these letters really requires one to take the LW's word for things, unless something strikes one as off. This is one of those letters where the LW has an obvious ulterior motive for twisting the facts. She always wanted to be a parent. This is motivation to lie about presuming herself infertile/using birth control. If she did that, then yes she's a shitty person. It's kind of comparable to stealthing, but kind of not, because the final decision on whether to use a condom remains with the man in both situations. Regardless, it is her choice what to do about the pregnancy. It is always the final decision of the pregnant person, no matter if they're a shitty person or not. Hope this man will learn a lesson and hope this kid will manage to thrive despite their beginnings.


Dashing- Your no-abortion, pro-monogamy sentiments are obvious.
Now assuming you’re aware that this is an advice column as opposed to a propaganda platform, is your advice to LW to wait patiently and marry the guy?


@142 don’t know why I keep arguing about this, but: if she told him “I took care of it”, that does not mean “I think the odds of conceiving are low”. That is a deception. She could have told the truth, but chose not to, presumably because she didn’t want to answer the follow up questions of “how low”, and “how do you know”. Whether her deception matters depends on the odds.

(the odds for a vasectomy are less than 0.1%, and I would give both your hypothetical man and the LW a pass on those odds. But I highly doubt she had any good reason to think her odds were that low.)


"But not having an abortion is the most selfish, most inhumane thing I can do to the person I love most in this world."

You are about to have a different person you love most in this world.

I'm pro-choice and contentedly child-free, but even I can see that your already-present regret will turn that phrase around into something you will not be able to unhear for the rest of your life.


@143: Don't let the trolls bother you Dashing, your story is as plausible as anyone else's is in an anonymous forum.


Joe, @147; you’re flogging a dead horse here. This man is having an affair, he’s the one being deceptive to a wife and children, not the LW. He should, when he has his little affairs, do a double lock on his secret life and whatever his side woman says, he wears a condom.
LW, words are cheap. He says he loves you, yet his actions say different. Stop deluding yourself and indulging him. Cut him loose, then think and talk about how this might look, if you go ahead with the pregnancy and rear your child.
I don’t advocate any path, I’ve been in your place and I know how difficult a decision it can be. I’ve reared kids and know how difficult that can be. I’ve never had an abortion.
It is totally a woman’s right to choose and men/ penis havers thinking they have any say in this, leaves me appalled at their arrogance.


@141 - Soul is not a religious term dear.


Abort the abusive CPOS
Marry his wife
You, her and his kids will be better off without him


Don’t dear me rain drop. Science term then is it?
Wherever it’s from, it’s not helpful and you not having a womb you know sweet fuck all about a decision like this. So take your souls and your dears and stick it.


raindrop- what are your parental credentials?


I agree that the number of unknown comment-makers was conspicuous here.

I'm guessing that what LW most doesn't want is to hate Mr Married, or that at least that's almost as important to her as not having the abortion. I'm not disagreeing with the accuracy of the whacks directed at him, but I have not yet decided whether pushing LW in the direction of hating him will do her much good.

Ms Lava, I can only imagine what the comments would be to the letter she'd write after finding the "wonderful single man who loves her and is more than happy to be a father to this child". But you are actually on a parallel track.

If this were a better world, LW would be able to place a matrimonial advertisement for another but more genuinely infertile woman of about her own age and career prospects, and have the great good luck to find out that they would make extremely compatible co-parents, probably preferably without any romantic attachment. It would be a bit like Miss Murgatroyd and Miss Hinchcliff in A Murder Is Announced if one buys the line that they weren't SS but were just two of he many women going spare after WWI who decided to chum up together and did so happily.


That’s the thing about pregnancy Mr Venn, it’s not a tea and scones subject. This woman has to make a hard decision. Why wouldn’t we point out what we see.. this guy is a tool. He doesn’t Love her. Look at the MeMeMe coming out of his mouth. Fuck him off. Have the baby and he better pay his monthly support, as he will, because he won’t want his home and family to be under any threat.
Deciding re pregnancy is a ruthless time, no pretty pictures or colourful butterflies.


The wording and state of mind it indicates is SO FUCKED UP. What a sick relationship. She’s basically just wondering how she ca shift reality so it’s only really shitty for her. She shouldn’t get a say? I’d say that it’s obvious she shouldn’t get an abortion but I’m not sure someone this fucked up should be raising a kid, period.


Good Lord. I think some of the commenters are forgetting that the existence or non-existence of a real human being is at stake here, and just pulling hard for internet coolness points.

Having an affair doesn't make you a bad person--something like 1 out of 5 people do it. So the comments section can just quit it with the shaming. Sure it's not a very good life decision, but you already owned up to it, you didn't defend it. It's a moot point now.

If you choose to continue this pregnancy, this child has the same rights as his existing children. There is no reason for him not to support this child just as he supports them. Please don't give yourself or your child any less value than you deserve.

I'm pro choice all the way. But please know this. I was in a very similar situation, although we were both separated from our spouses at the time. My pregnancy was a statistical miracle that resulted from post-breakup sex after we'd already ended things. Hence it was the worst possible timing. I chose to continue the pregnancy. Was it easy? No. Was he happy? No. Was I happy? No. That first year was a fucking nightmare in many ways, and being a single mother was incredibly hard. It was messy. My family was horrified.

Have I ever once regretted keeping this child? NO. Would I have regretted getting an abortion? Absolutely, until I drew my very last breath. I now have a perfect 4 year old who brings life and light into everyone she meets. Her father is wrapped around her finger. She has an extended family that adores her (once my family got over the shock, it only took a few weeks for them to come around). She is intelligent, beautiful, kind, funny. She has completely saved my life.

It's obvious from your words that you are ready to love and care for this child. So take your goddamn prenatal vitamins and make the decision that is right for YOU.

Your boyfriend made his bed and now he will have to lie in it. I know you love him and don't want him to suffer for this, but as Dan said, he's culpable too. You'll be doing the bulk of the suffering here. And you will reap the bulk of the rewards, just as I have with my fantastic daughter. Good luck to you. <3


I rather like Mr. Venn's take on the situation. When it comes to abortion, there's not generally anything new to be said. It tends to be: her choice, not fair, consider adoption, blah, blah, blah. Which isn't to say I mean to make light of what's obviously a difficult thing all around. I'm merely saying that threads on abortion, wherever they show up, go on for a long time while people state and restate the same considerations and opinions. The idea of teaming up with an infertile wannabe mother at least has the advantage of being novel.

(Now my turn to restate what I originally stated. Talk to someone at a legitimate abortion clinic. They have experience in not judging, in talking you through your options, in giving you legal information, in helping you feel better about whatever you decide. Counseling from an experienced abortion counselor!)


More miracles.. thanks @157. Where did you all get recruited from?
This is nothing to do with how many affairs go on, this is about this man showing his true self, when a difficult life situation occurs.


Fichu, not sure what your point is.. Each letter is a question anew. Yes, same old same old if it’s a pregnancy etc question. We still got to go thru it all again, for each LW.


@159, fiiiiine. Statistically, pregnancy was highly improbable.

I'm an atheist and it was a figure of speech used for brevity. No need to get your undies in a bundle. Yeesh.


@130: Bingo.

The LW has breezily assumed both that she can carry a child to term, and that she can do so without serious risk to herself. If either assumption is not valid, then this story has a range of possible endings, all of them worse for her than even the whole raging psychodrama she has going now — a drama which, as noted many times here already, will get much worse (and for more persons) if she does bear a child.

She needs to quit talking about going to a clinic, and RUN to her primary care physician and to her Ob/Gyn. (And if she does not have those already, then she should just get the abortion immediately, because hers is certainly a high-risk pregnancy, which RIGHT NOW requires plenty of careful monitoring.) Once her medical team has evaluated the results from the battery of medical tests she’ll be required to get, then they can talk about whether she even has a real choice to make.

Only after all that is done will anyone have the luxury of worrying about the consequences of her bearing her faithless lover’s child.


Disgruntled Potato
“Miracle” aside, you seem to be authentic and you also offer advice. I’m glad parenthood works for you. Really.
While none of my own children were aborted, I dated at least two women who did have an abortion. While both content with the decision one would sometimes express a “what if.” The other, whom I ended up marrying and later divorce, had no regrets whatsoever and was always a great parent to our children.


Apologies @161.


@153: I don't have kids, except for a vicarious blessing in helping a couple with the costs of in-vitro for their baby.

Those who look into their crystal balls and deem someone will be a "shitty" parent, typically don't realize the transformative and enlightenment in character growth that can occur for the mother and father when the baby is born. But as you read I overreacted to Jack and have apologized.


I’m going to take a slightly different tack here and say that I have as much or more concern for the wife and kids in question as I do for anyone else involved in this mess. The husband is a self-serving ass who risked his family’s happiness and wellbeing with a badly-managed affair. Not only did he not mitigate a huge risk properly, dude is not capable of owning his shit when the risks he took did end up going sideways, which really speaks badly of him.

But I don’t see why most of you are handling the LW with kid gloves—most times people lose their shit on this forum about affairs because BETRAYAL. Granted she’s the other woman and it’s not her family, but she doesn’t live in a vacuum and those people she chose to disregard are still real. She knowingly slept with a married man, without using birth control, and in doing so assumed a risk with the lives of his children, because rarely do things go well when the piece on the side gets pregnant. He bears most of the responsibility for this, but she is still a knowing accomplice and didn’t give them much thought—in prioritizing her pleasure, she either didn’t weigh or didn’t care what would happen to them if things went badly.

Well, now they’ve gone badly. But the innocent bystanders in this shit-show are given nary a thought nor a mention in the letter. So I’m going to second joeburner in saying that I find something in her account off—the letter is just a hair too self-absorbed, disingenuous and vague for me to entirely buy into her statement of facts. Someone this articulate doesn’t know that she has final say what happens to her body? I also feel she isn’t being entirely honest with the story about the birth control—that is to say, not dishonest, but not giving all the information either, just like she never did with her lovers. She passes over how cavalier it is to imply and allow people to assume she is on birth control. And she’s got this passive, ever so slightly victimized attitude: “This thing has happened.” No, it didn’t just happen, you and your lover both repeatedly made choices over the long term and brought it about.

But what bothers me most is she hasn’t grasped that her lover’s kids are just as much of a miracle to his wife as her own child will be to her, should she choose to have it. She didn’t seem to care much about this fact when she started the affair. And now they are likely going to have a hard time because of it. Somehow this gets passed over in her considerations.

So have the abortion or don’t, LW. As everyone says, your boyfriend does not seem all that wonderful and your relationship is probably done now regardless of what happens, so don’t worry too much about what he thinks. The decision is yours and yours alone. But in addition to figuring out what is best for you and your unborn child, I hope that the other children in this story factor into your calculations somewhere too, because it sounds like they didn’t before and still don’t. It’s all about what you and your lover want. Those kids are just as important as your child will be—not to you, obviously, but in the grand scheme of things.


‘Can occur’ are the operative words raindrop. Abuse and neglect can occur too. Children are hard work, and that’s after the pregnancy, which is another kind of hard work and a time of high risk. It’s not a cute fairy story, it’s being knee deep in shitty nappies and a crying baby with wind in their belly.


It’s not about betrayal, Late, it’s about lies.
I’m treating the LW a bit carefully because she’s pregnant. Not an equal playing field between her and the man.


True Late, the children. I think the LW is a selfish woman, and one who has let these lies continue, without care for this man’s wife or his born children.
Her pregnancy now makes her a carrier of one of this man’s children. Another sad story brought to you by “ I want it all.”


for everyone recommending no abortion, remember the kid will at some point need or want the ID of the father, and mom should ethically to give it.

and based on her poor judgement in general, it's a high prob that sooner or later $ from the father will be needed. so let's disregard the fantasy of keeping the fathers ID unknown.

also score some DNA from the father now somehow (hair, coffee cup something), because he seems like someone who will contest paternity.


I had a friend in college in a similar situation. However, she told the man what the doctor told her. She needed to have surgery in order to be able to get pregnant. So he knew she was not using contraception. She was almost 5 month pregnant before she realized she was pregnant. If she had wanted an abortion, it was passed time to do anything. When the doctor told her she was pregnant, she said, aren't you the one that told me this wasn't possible? The doctor was uncomfortable and fearing a malpractice suit, was annoyed at the question. So the truth was it was difficult for her to get pregnant, not impossible.

She wasn't dating a married man. She had divorced and was fucking rebound guy. He was single, but an asshole, especially after she got pregnant. She did not put his name on the birth certificate and she was an older college student (27) and finished her final presentation with a 3 day old in carrier next to her. Her Mom and brother stepped up to help with the baby.

I wish there were more birth control options for men, but doctors need to be careful telling women that they can't get pregnant. It leads to bad decisions.

The father can decide to be part of the kids life and tell his spouse or you can move away, start over and cut off all contact with married dude.

If you don't want an abortion, don't have one.


@168: And you often hear parents eventually reminisce about those days of "shitty nappies and crying babies" and how they zipped by. You're obviously content to forever ruminate and be pessimistic about child rearing. I'm not trying to take that away from you.


raindear- I’m not sure what “a vicarious blessing in helping a couple with the costs of in-vitro for their baby” may entail, though I suspect the experience does not necessarily qualify one to dismiss others the way you keep doing.
Apologies should also be extended to Lava. Your earlier posts, not to mention your latest @ 172, show us your true nature.


Oooooh goodness. I’m exceptionally pro-choice but I think that having this child would be a giant mistake.

Very much behind @EmmaLiz here.

Let’s start with the obvious. You are NOT going to have a cute happy family with this man. Now, maybe I’m just drawing too much from my job as a divorce and custody attorney, but PLEASE consider what you expect would happen if you were to have this child.

Option 1 is you have the child and he has no involvement. How do you feel about that? Are you prepared for you and your child to be thoroughly rejected like that? For life? If there’s ANY part of you that thinks he’ll see the baby and change his mind and be around, I have 1000 cases I can tell you about where that doesn’t happen. Where mom spends YEARS and thousands of dollars in legal fees desperately demanding dad’s attention. It’s not gonna happen. Your letter, to me, reeks of an underlying need for the man in addition to the child. Please do not deluded yourself that you’re different or he’s different or this child is different. How will you feel when he prioritizes his other children over yours? This man has expressed an unwillingness for you to have this child for WHATEVER reason. Please assume that the underlying message is true. He doesn’t want another kid. He will not want another kid when it shows up. This is the most likely outcome.

Now if you’re completely 10000% ok with raising the child on your own with nothing from him ever except a resentful check every month AND you’re fine with your child resenting you for having them under these circumstances. Fine? I guess? Go for it? I don’t think you’d be happy with this because you’d don’t mention it in your letter.

Option 2. Though vanishingly rare, is the option that he WANTS ago be involved with the child, but not YOU. How do you feel about that? How do you feel about the fact that this man—who may stay with his wife, or find another lover—gets to veto your choice of schools and dentists and tutors? How do you feel about the fact that every other Christmas, he gets the kid and you’ll be alone? How will you feel when you have to do half the transportation, dropping the kid off or picking the kid up from his new girlfriend’s place? How will you feel if your child forms a close relationship with this dudes current wife or next partner? How will you feel when your child develops a relationship with this guys other kids? Who may resent your child for breaking up their family? Do you earn a lot of money? How about his wife? How will you feel if your child and his/her half siblings have different financial realities because their moms have different careers?

My gut reaction to this letter is that you WANTED this child with him all along to try and force him to maintain the relationship. That’s toxic and will never work. I hope I’m wrong. But again, I’ve heard too many stories told in the same way from clients...


Raindrop, I’m a lazy bitch, of course I’ll complain about breastfeeding each baby three or four times a night for a couple of years. Sure those years seem to have whizzed past Now, but Then, they went on forever.
Children get abused, neglected and murdered by their parents. Don’t romanticise experiences you’ve not experienced.


I disagree that it's likely she's lying about the infertility, Joe, or that her story has an ulterior motive, BDF. Reason being, if she were actually trying to get pregnant (since she always wanted kids), it seems an odd way to go about it, lying about being infertile and fucking married men with children already into her late 30s/ early 40s (whichever it is that's she's calling the end of her childbearing years).

I also question the "I always wanted kids" claim though I have less reason to question it and might be wrong. But I'd just assume that a woman who always wanted kids but was infertile would look into adoption. Maybe she did though, who knows.

CMD, for what it's worth, it's the LW who first mentioned the miracle and the others seem to be referencing that, hence the common language across so many posts. I have no idea if the multiple first-time-commenter posts are the same person or people who felt compelled to participate for the first time- my guess is a little of both. I hope some of the newbies stick around, including Dashing and Spatabrat (whether or not this is their first post or just the first I've seen, I'm not sure).


Also, in re-reading the post (looking for the "miraculous" reference) I think first step, this woman needs to sit herself down with someone trusted (the counselor as advised before perhaps) and separate out her feelings for this married man from her feelings about becoming a mother.

Because a lot of posts here talk about her leaving the man and having the baby, but it appears she wants the man and the baby. Fine, it's obvious she wants them both, but she needs to seriously think about whether or not she wants the baby if it does not come with the man. Because even though I think it's a) unlikely she will be able to raise a child without the man being in her life forever, and b) unfair and undesirable to do so to everyone, she will not get the relationship with this man that she wants.


@CMD I see where you're going with that. It's obvious you're little cross dressing avatar has gotten your conservative radar mixxed up. I'm very much pro-abortion. I wish all whites would do it 100% of the time. It would make life for the rest of us safer.


That’s a tad racist, Dashing.


EmmaLiz @177, it doesn't surprise me that an infertile woman who always wanted kids but didn't have a partner to coparent them with wouldn't have thought of looking into adoption. I'm not drawing a conclusion; her story does strike me as plausible, but in general people who want children try less hard to avoid them.

New commenters, Lava mentioned recruitment. It seems the SLLOTD re stealthing was shared with a stealther forum. It's highly likely someone shared this with a pro-birth community, hence the happy endings being shared by people who went ahead with pregnancies. Any stories from people who aborted and are so relieved?


The most ethical thing the LW could do at this point is have the abortion. Now that she knows she can get pregnant she can use this information to plan a future pregnancy with a better coparent than someone who rawdogs it while cheating on his wife. Go see an abortion counselor, a real one, not one of those fake religious set ups that will try and talk you out of it

Pregnancy fucks with the head. I was absolutely sure I never wanted kids until I accidentally got pregnant when my birth control failed. Suddenly, every fiber of my being was screaming "KEEP IT!" But I did go through with the abortion, and I'm glad that I did because now I know I have the desire for kids but I can do it when I'm actually ready.


@176: "Children get abused, neglected and murdered by their parents. Don’t romanticise [sic] experiences you’ve not experienced."

Wow. Yeah, some do. The overwhelming majority do not. You seem to think that your cynical negativity gives you credence. It doesn't.


She could also have the baby and meet another man who would love to be a father. Life is full of wondrous possibilities.

But no, the cynical women on this thread want their sad and depressing views to be proven right want you to KILL your baby, LW.

Don't give them the satisfaction.


@182: Ethics is not the right word. The better word is circumstances. You weren't ready for motherhood, but LW clearly is.


LW: You see the debate of whether you should have an abortion hashed out here ad nauseam.

Nobody else is in your shoes. So don't feel that anyone here has any elevated perceptions on this than you do.

There are angry women on this thread who want you to abort solely because it gives them some weird sense of vindication. And there are others, like me, who advocate keeping the baby but are also not in your shoes.

There is scant wisdom to be gained from any of the above bloviating. The wisdom comes from your inner voice, your heart, your spirituality. Let it guide you.

Good luck.


Dashing @ 179
“I see where you're going with that.” Do tell.
Also, what’s your suggestion to the person who wrote the letter?

Raindrop- The way I see it Lava keeps telling you and others that beyond “wondrous” and “miracles” parenthood is a long and often exhausting journey full of sleepless nights, endless diaper changing, dealing with tantrums and middle schoolers getting in trouble.
Of course it is a life changing experience, often rewarding in unimaginable ways, and yet there are plenty challenges one has to be aware of before giving birth. Concentrating on the miracle side of all this may prove crushingly deceptive and cause serious problems to all involved.


I also believe that the facts as presented by an abortion counselor will bring this situation into reality. There's no romantic fantasy way out for anyone in the entire setup. Everyone is going to take shrapnel. Still, no one should get an abortion they don't want to spare anyone else's feelings. This LW and the father made some selfish decisions and are still pretending it's a sweeping romance. Laptop out the window for sure. LW needs facts and a plan, not more romantic fantasy.


raindrop- just when I thought you have slightly matured, "There are angry women on this thread who want you to abort solely because it gives them some weird sense of vindication" is yet another fine observation.
Some women here deserve an apology.


Agree that facts and a plan are the only things that will help LW now. She seems to be having some trouble accepting how hard a left turn her life just took. Laptop out the window for sure. But hard no on getting an unwanted abortion to spare other peoples' feelings. Selfish decisions made this happen. You want to be selfless now, be selfless toward the baby you want. Secure financial support from the father and give up on the idea of saving him from his own bad decisions. He's not in a romance anymore, he's strategizing on how to turn you into a 'never happened' to keep his existing family intact. Please get good legal advice.


@189: Please don't be impertinent. Provide thoughtful commentary or don't comment at all.


Sigh. If this affair had been on-going for several months, much less several years, the wife knows something was going on already.

Second, if he's cheating on his wife, he can be cheating on her. Make sure it's wrapped. STDs are no fun.

Third, she needs to sit down with a real counselor at a real abortion clinic and have That Discussion.

Knew a late teen once who got herself pregnant while on a Grateful Dead tour, and who was determined to bear the child and raise it despite what her mom and I suggested. She was fortunate to find a couple who grandparented single moms and got some help from them. After the hormones wore off, she wondered what the fuck she'd done.

And I was a late teen myself who was unable to get an abortion in the 1960s, had a child and put it up for adoption, and am still somewhat angry at 71 that I wasn't able to get an abortion and get on with my life.

The thing is called "Pro-Choice" for a reason. Women who are bullied into either bearing children when they don't want to or into having abortions when they want children had choice removed from them. And that's nasty.


@187: "Concentrating on the miracle side of all this may prove crushingly deceptive and cause serious problems to all involved."

The opposite it also true. Optimism vs. Pessimism

Take your pick.


Raindrop, you're the one who is being impertinent and thoughtless.


I think she would regret having the abortion a hell of a lot more than regret the pain this will cause him and his wife.

And I think she should end the relationship immediately. Might also want to move. People nowadays are all about "I have a right to be happy" and "this is so not fair!"...well life isn't always fair buttercup...people make dumb decisions and choices all the time and being an adult is sucking it up and accepting the consequences of those decisions and making the best of a crappy situation. And the people who whine about their own happiness are just so annoying. Happiness is like a drug. It's fun. It's exciting. But you get addicted to it and think you are entitled to it no matter what and to hell with who gets hurt in the process.

Yeah honey...DTMFA (I think this guy is a dick, cheats on his wife, jeopardizes the stability of his family, and for what?)....lies to his wife and kids so what makes you think you are so special he isn't going to do the same to you? And even if he doesn't it is still a huge indicator in a profound flaw in this mans character. And you are no better...screwing around with a married man. Not taking precautions despite your genuine belief you couldn't get pregnant....makes me think of an awesome line from "Priscilla Queen of the Desert"..."assumptions are the mother of all fuck ups"


@194: Yes, at times I am. Hard to avoid in a passionate debate.


Well, shit. I take it back. I guess Dasihng is a bigoted troll after all.


I was surprised at the commenters who suggested that she have a baby but not expect any child support from the father.

That is not the American way. A child deserves at least financial support from both parents.

I think it's the American way, if a guy comes inside a woman's vagina, he is prepared to handle the consequences of pregnancy and stis.

They are just as strong as women they should be able to handle this.

Rape and other malicious actions like stealing sperm filed condoms and whatnot is not the American way to achieve the rights and responsibilities of parenthood. I think. The laws are too fuzzy about some cases.

And I wish there were better programs for those children who truly do not have two parents.

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