Savage Love

Come the Revolution

Comments

1

sorry griz

2

REVOLT - it sounds like you are deciding to have sex the wrong way! It's no good to decide to have sex with your head.. Your body will tell you if you're in a good place to have sex, just trust your mind to keep you safe, it should not let you have sex unless you are with a trustworthy person, and have mitigated disease and pregnancy risks and whatever else you need. Your body's sex drive and arousal is the gas, and your brain is the brakes. Don't promise sex, listen to your body, and if your body is not aroused or feels bad then use your mind and mouth to stop bad sex. Sex shouldn't feel bad. And a guy who wants to argue and tell you it's ok for sex to feel bad for you or you shouldn't feel bad is dangerous, to have no respect for a lovers feelings. Yes there is a statistically significant male population who are dangerous lovers. Please do not reward them with sex, thanks.

TRC - "I can't get around the nagging feeling that there's something "unhealthy" about this fantasy. If my kink is based on specific insecurities/fears, do they get even more hardwired into my brain with every orgasm?"

Nagging feelings can be helped by talking through the problem with someone or journaling.. I believe in an orgasmic feedback loop, I think you can make your kink stronger by practice while you're coming. I think you can weaken it by analyzing it when you're not horny and refusing to orgasm afterward. But why would you want to unless it did pose some difficulty for you, or for whoever you wanted to do it with. It sounds like what turns you on is impossible, to be fucking your husband while also watching him fucking someone else, it doesn't sound like a cuckquean fantasy so much as a shared threesome fantasy, or maybe videoing him with someone else so you can watch this later while you fuck him at the same time? It might actually help sort it out, to think more about how you might realize your fantasy, and see if something realistic also turns you on.. are you turned on by being a voyeur and simply watching him with someone else while you masturbate, maybe while hiding in the closet, the way I imagine a cuckquean scene might go? Maybe you really want to have sex with someone else while you watch him have sex with someone else?

Maybe you just like the impossible idea of him having a clone that is fucking someone else while he also fucks you.. that is more appropriate for dirty talk.. trying to find a similar guy to play the role of the clone might work too tho..

3

@1 would have looked really weird if AuntieGriz had beat me to it this week and I was 2nd. lesson learned: take a chance in life! live on the wild side! and - try those kinks (if moral)

4

LW1 there's a podcast called "How Cum" by an NYC comedian in her late 20's who spent nine months working on learning how to orgasm. It's super interesting, funny, and as a long time reader of Dan and a vagina owner who has no trouble w orgasm I'm learning a LOT. https://www.remykassimir.com/how-cum.html

Other advice would be to run the fuck. Most will appreciate it. This is in the moment instruction or you just use them as a living sex toy until they learn what you need, put in the effort and then you start caring about their needs again. We aren't socialized to do this so just make yourself an alternative ego like Beyonce does until it's second nature. He's not the one that makes you cum, you're the one that makes you cum. Be the dude. All you gotta do.

LW2 It's extremely extremely fun, just do it!

5

Alter ego, damn autocorrect.

@2 of course you can fuck your husband at the same time he's fucking someone else. But also it's just super goddam fun to send the guy out on adventures solo, you know? Pics and recap optional of course, but very much appreciated.

6

Also LW2 you're not a cuckquean you're a hothusbander and yes that's a dumb term and yes we should come up with a better one. Cuck anything means there's a humiliation aspect.

7

TRC – talk to your man about it. First, bring it up as an erotic AVT conversation during sex. Tell him you visualize him with another woman. Assure him it’s ok with you to talk about it during sex that it turns YOU on. Don’t get into details at this point, see how he reacts and assess your own feelings afterwards.
Was it an enhanced experience for you? Did you feel “dirty” and ashamed once it was over? Most importantly, is this conversation worth repeating in a future sexy time?
If the answer to the last question is no then the course of action is obvious.

If you decide to check it out further you may want to include a real person in the conversation, yet not one of your mutual friends. “That waitress… wasn’t she cute? I visualize her sitting on the bar, spreading her legs, you take her panties off with your teeth while everyone including myself are all watching and cheering, and you eat her out so enthusiastically, proving myself and LW1 what a great man I have.
Once it’s over assess the situation once more. Erotic talk is great, and can stay at that, no right or wrong.

If you decide to try a real life encounter than mention a mutual friend in your next bedtime story, once again reassuring him you’re ok with it. If the itch persists then you should talk to him outside of the bedroom, in a public set up that still allows you a private conversation, preferably while the two of you are sober, and bring up the possibility of a full-blown act. His reactions in previous encounters should already give you a clue as to his preferred form of engagement.

8

@1 & @3 delta35: Sorry---for what? You won the first honors fair and square. Congrats on scoring first post and savor the glory. :)

9

@DonnyKlicious: I responded to your comment @142 from last week (hee hee). :)

10

@5 she can't fuck her husband at the same time he is fucking another, not the way her kink is manifesting right now, it sounds like she's using his penis to get off while she's simultaneously super turned on by him fucking someone else with that same penis at the same time. Since he has only one penis, because he has only one body at the moment, it does remain impossible to realize, exactly as it's getting her off right now. Maybe she could find a look alike of his they could watch, or she could get off a different way while he fucks someone else.

11

Or watching video of his action with someone else while fucking him sounds closest maybe..

12

@7 - Excellent advice to take it slow, and to check in with herself throughout it, to make sure she's comfortable with how she's exploring her kink.

REVOLT - As Dan and others have said, use your words! Don't put up with selfish assholes who don't give a damn about your pleasure. There are plenty of guys out there who will care about making sure you're happy and satisfied.

13

LW1 makes me sad if this how 20 something year old hetero males fuck now; I'm in my early 40s (cis hetero female) and all of my partners (also same age) have had a "ladies first" policy and would only come after me.

14

@4 Thanks for the rec, never heard of that.

Regarding running the fuck, yes first it requires the woman to know how her body works and how she orgasms (which is assuming that she can and in various situations with others which not all women can), but yes, if a woman has that down, then run the fuck. I did this for years, and most guys were totally down with it, very happy to go along with me being a bit more assertive. Since half the world is men, this woman might be filtering for dudes who aren't going to be attentive, just like I filtered for dudes who would let me be more assertive, but also yeah- it might be that she's trying to get them to simultaneously run the fuck AND know how to please her which seems a big ask. If she's not being assertive, she can't expect them to read her mind. If she is being assertive and they are not being attentive, then she's filtering for the wrong sort of dude. Again, all this assuming she CAN orgasm easily enough with others under circumstances that work for her. If she can't, then it doesn't seem fair to be putting that all on the guys, and she probably should work on what it is she wants out of a sexual encounter and redirect towards that, masturbation and vibrators included etc.

I have a longer response to the second question, a topic that is near and dear to my heart as a fellow gal who loves knowing how hot it is when others want her hubby, but no time now to get into it.

15

@10 Philo

Real quick, not really. He just needs to tell her, while he's fucking her, about how he fucked someone else. Here, I'll show you. I did this, and then this. Role play at it and play along.

16

I double checked to see if I was projecting, and no, the LW1 does not mention telling them (or even asking them) to do other things and having them ignore her. She just complains about what they do and don't do.

Now she might be giving feedback and they ignore in which case- if that happens from time to time, OK, selfish people do exist. Just don't ever see him again and tell him why. But if it's happening frequently or a pattern, then double check how you are approaching people, what you are filtering for/against.

But it sounds like she's not giving feedback and just annoyed when they rush things, which yeah, lots of guys do that- and in my experience- especially when they are young. But it's also been my experience that if you use your words and direct your actions and tell them instead to do this or that (and you reciprocate! be assertive and get into THEM too) then I've never had a guy that was like "nah, roll over and let me wham bam instead". On the contrary, everyone likes it when their partner is enthusiastic. Use your words (and your mouth, hands, hips) and be assertive, gal. If the guys are young and inexperienced and also expected to know what to do, then they might be more unsure/horny/eager than selfish. If, on the other hand, they are just bad in bed and selfish or if they insist that they must be the ones in control of everything and that they know what's better for your body than you do, then roll your eyes and move on. FYI I've found that taking feedback is as important as giving it. Like, ask what they want you to do also. Show a willingness/eagerness, and vocalize the same expectation from them in return.

17

I think some people are just following scripts about sex rather than actually doing it the way they want when they're actually comfortable with their partner. Makes sense particularly for first engineers and inexperienced people, but finding myself doing that door if thing just looks dumb in retrospect. (Of course it's not going to be mutually satisfying if you're super anxious, for example.)

18

Er, that should be "first encounters" in 17, not "first engineers", although it's possible engineers are more commonly involved in bad sex.

19

REVOLT, you write that you have had sex with six guys at this point, but I wonder both how much sex you have had, and the level of sexual experience of your partners. I would not be shocked to learn that some of your partners have only had vaginal intercourse a few times before meeting you with one or two partners. If so, they may feel more relief than pleasure, at having had an orgasm inside you. This is not said to negate the fact that you are not enjoying sex, but to provide you with some perspective that the men you are fucking may not have the skill and experience you expect.

@Dan and others have mentioned screening partners. It seems that one method is telling prospective PIV sex partners before a sexual encounter that you are open to mutual masturbation and oral sex, but not PIV. If a guy is not enthusiastic about a night of oral, you have a good idea that you probably don't want to be sexual with him. But the guys for whom this is a fun offer, and who come through with good oral sex, you can be more sure that you can continue to make manual and oral sex mandatory foreplay before PIV sex.

TRQ,fantasizing about cuckqueaning scenes is not going to pollute your mind. I would strongly recommend that you make some connections online to other women who, like you, enjoy fantasizing about their partners having sex with other women. What you will come to see is that the women who are actualizing these fantasies are entirely normal, well-adjusted adults who could be your friends and neighbors, and not some freaky degenerates barely holding their lives and romantic relationship together. I think that when you realize that you can have an entirely typical romantic relationship with a loving partner who also "cheats" on you with other women, you will be able to better integrate your vanilla and kinky sides and enjoy your kink without stress, doubt, or anxiety.

20

Re: REVOLT

With five lovers, it's entirely possible that she's simply had bad luck. And I agree that people should be communicative and assertive about their needs. HOWEVER, whenever we find ourselves faulting everyone else in our social interactions, it's time to take a step back and look at the common denominator. Dan does LW a disservice by failing to acknowledge this truism.

Is LW dating run-of-the-mill douchebags? Is she attracted to guys who act like selfish assholes? Outside of the bedroom, would she describe her boyfriends as "sweet guys"? Putting in the effort to detach herself from her attraction and striving for objectivity, can she honestly say that, were her boyfriends women, she would want to be close friends with them? Now maybe she'll pass this self-scrutiny with flying colors, but the questions are worth asking.

Sure, there might not be much correlation between kindness and sexual skill, and I have no clue how Gandhi performed in the sack. But it's unlikely that selfish people are going to act selflessly in the bedroom, and generally speaking, thoughtful people make thoughtful lovers.

Finally, I'd like to dispel the myth that men alone are responsible for joyless sex. There is a class of woman who believes that sex consists of lying on the bed with spread legs while the man does 100% of the work. LW is just dating their male equivalent.

21

@10 Dick =/= sex, dick =/= orgasm, dick =/= pleasure. In her case she feels her arousal/pleasure/orgasm would be better if her husband's dick was employed elsewhere. I cannot emphasize enough how extremely completely unnecessary cock is for incredible sex. In this case the best orgasms of her life are most likely to occur when he isn't even in the same building. He still gave them to her. I get how this is confusing if it's not your kink, but just switch the genders around and I think you'll get it.

And LW? You're overthinking it. He's a guy. Very few, very very very few guys wouldn't be into this. They tend to be leery at first bc they think it's a trap. It is not. Ask him to tell you about sex he's had in the past in great detail or sex he wants to have (watch him watch other women and show him you approve, talk about how you approve, draw his attention to hot women) and take his hands and shove them in your underwear so he can see what it does to you. The odds of him not being on board w this are super low. Even if he doesn't do it that often or to full extent it's still glorious. If you're bi or he finds a fun gf who will let you listen/watch/help or sex parties are on the menu things will get even more interesting. And he might have a kink he's dying to try too.

@14 anyone can run the fuck, orgasms not required, awareness of your own pleasure needs not required (this is how you find out your pleasure needs, and also communicate them effectively), awareness or caring about the other person's pleasure needs not required (these ignorant incurious douches do it), total absolute virgins who have never masturbated or seen dick can do it. You don't have to be assertive, you just have to find a guy who will go w the program - i.e. stay the fuck still while she works some things out, maybe help how and when asked, full stop and bye bye forever if he does anything outside direction. I have never run into a guy who wouldn't be into that (hello kind gentleman, do you want to be the goddamn hero who helps me cum for the first time?). Once she's able to come w that guy she's gonna be pretty motivated to continue, assertion at that point much easier and largely unnecessary as he'll have learned what she needs too. If my high school boyfriends could do it so can grown ass men.

Let's assume the LW isn't dating nothing but uncaring scum - let's give her the benefit of the doubt that she and her friends have already addressed this obvious factor. Even if she is there is only one solution - make his orgasm optional and hers obligatory. Stop sex after she's done, not after he cums, if he cums. If she's easily orgasmic on her own, he only gets to orgasm if she does, aim for lesbian orgasm rate (same as guys orgasm rate) or if he's truly spectacular in all other ways, let him get away w same rate you have solo, improvement mandatory. If he's dense, post the rules on the door in advance and make him read them (anyone want to write them?). Have him sign the rules, possibly in jizz. Make a brochure like the emergency exit plans on an airplane (laminate it). Make him complete an online quiz and reject him until he gets 100%. Flowcharts. Flashcards. Memorization and recitation. TED talk. Get a light up sports scorecard like at the ballpark. Ring a bell for every orgasm. Gold star chart on the fridge. Girl has options. Guys will jump through incredible hoops to fuck. You just gotta bring it up pre-fuck. Taking his orgasm off the table until hers is on it is equality. It's only fair. The fact that so many women are in this boat partially explains the decent guys lack of insight - they think it's fine when it's not cause we're taught to coddle them. Remove the coddle possibility before you have sex and it becomes easier to stop doing it. Emphasize fair. Get a chess clock app. Average amount of time to orgasm solo for women is 20 minutes apparently. Guys... less. Let's be kind and say five. So if she blows him for two minutes he eats her out for eight. If it takes you 40 mins solo, double it (never less!). They really don't seem to get we don't work just like them. They need to be taught. If things are uneven you do this exercise once or twice and you won't have to repeat it with anyone worth sleeping with. Let's leave the guys better than we found them, send them out into the world educated, as a gift to other women. At minimum LW, make them read your letter to Dan. And get them watching better porn. Like, real sex porn. Porn produced by and for lesbians for example. Where if you just listen to the soundtrack without watching you can tell they're actually cumming. I bet a lot of these guys have never seen a real orgasm. (That's where their sex ed is coming from. I mean, if Cindy Gallop was running into this problem, it's definitely not just you!).

If she really wants to be clear, she'll show him one. After underwhelming sex, get herself off. He would if it were him, right? Make sure he knows and knows why. Make him watch to learn. Notepad, pencil, there will be a quiz. Failure results in expulsion.

If she can't orgasm solo its a totally different problem and she definitely needs to listen to that podcast.

22

@20 " There is a class of woman who believes that sex consists of lying on the bed with spread legs while the man does 100% of the work"

There is a larger class of men who appear to prefer this, think that's the problem the LW his describing. They don't care if she's completely checked out.

23

@20 Also, that sounds GREAT, please sign me up!

I remember some article where the woman had decided she only wanted unreciprocated oral sex from men for the rest of her life, all NSA, had plenty of highly skilled offers and was all set. Living the dream!

24

no @21 "If she can't orgasm solo its a totally different problem"

Well, she says "I, on the other hand, have never had an orgasm." Though it's not clear if we are to interpret this as [when having sex with someone else] or [ever in my life].

25

If five out of five guys REVOLT has had sex with have been selfish, she needs to look for a pattern in her choices. Sure, five isn't all that many, but it's likely she has a type -- and turns out, that's the selfish type. I agree with Dan both that REVOLT needs to learn what makes her come -- so she can tell these guys what makes her come -- and stop letting men fuck her without foreplay. Dan is right -- if you tell a horny man that he needs to go down on you before he gets to fuck you, he will go down on you. Or he'll decide it's not worth it -- you're not worth it -- and you've dodged a bullet. REVOLT, not all men are like this! Some love to eat pussy. Perhaps you need to have an actual conversation about sexual preferences before getting naked with them.

TRC seems to be caught in a cycle where the guiltier she feels about this fantasy, the more turned on she gets, and the more turned on she gets the guiltier she feels, so that it has become an obsession. Two points: She IS getting enjoyment from "normal" sex. Many people fantasise while having vanilla sex in order to come. And secondly, this is not the weirdest fantasy out there; a large majority of men would be thrilled to participate in this. TRC, you've done enough therapy to convince you that this kink isn't a reaction to insecurity, it's a kink. And why shouldn't you get to realise your kink? If your fantasies are making sex better for you, keep fantasising. And do share them with your partner! You'd be making his dreams come true.

26

Philo @2, TRC says her kink is "fantasizing about my boyfriends fucking other women," not fantasising that the boyfriend is fucking her and the other woman simultaneously. She employs this fantasy while having sex in order to come. It's a voyeur fantasy which is common enough, and seems extremely easy to realise. She could just ask for a threesome -- most of these, IME, involve at least some period of relaxing and watching the other two people. She can masturbate while watching, or ask the boyfriend to refrain from coming with the other woman so he can fuck her afterwards. A sex worker might be a good choice for this fantasy, if she does decide to enact it. I'm sure they could also find a willing third in any swingers club.

Ms No @4, exactly. Take the reins. Guide his hand to where you want it. If he tries to mount her, push him off (playfully), get on top and continue making out and teasing him. Sit on his face. Keep control of the condom so that YOU decide when it's time to put it on. He can't treat you like a passive fuck toy if you don't act like one!

Ms No @6, you'll have to fight Hunter on that point, but it sounds like TRC does have a humiliation aspect of her kink, given that she has analysed it as coming from a place of distrusting men and feeling insecure. She fears her men will cheat, so she eroticises watching them bang other women. It's not just "watching is hot."

Miko @13, "are your men too young" is one of the first questions I would encourage REVOLT to ask herself. Boys are selfish, men are giving!

EmmaLiz @16, I agree with your reading. She seems passive. She has probably seen too many romantic movies. Prince Charming doesn't exist. I wonder if the men she's slept with would describe her as being too passive, expecting them to read her mind, and uninterested in foreplay because she didn't initiate any, just let them stick their dicks in? REVOLT, the power is in your hands!

27

REVOLT should slow things down. Female selectivity and reluctance are a sad casualty of the tinder era. Back in the day, women would make men wait...and wait...and wait. It was good for both sexes.

28

Dan's advice to LW1 is good, but if she was my friend and rolling out her woes I would ask her to look at what type of guys she's fucking. There are lousy lays in all walks of life, but I still think average dudes bought into being normal fuck worse than nerds, freaks and all the subacultural groups that were meaningful before the internet smooshed us all back together. Try some weirdos instead of normal douche #5923 and follow Dans advice to advocate for yourself.

For #2, nothing about her letter says she is not a cuckquean, she has already seen the porn and knows she likes it. There is nothing wrong with being one, don't let the commentators try to convince you otherwise. My wife is strongly into similar kink but we have so far only enacted it in dirty talk as part of other BDSM scenarios. I (in one of the most obvious statements in history) am into it but nervous about the prospects of finding a third who will fulfill her needs while not feeling like a prop for our play. I know there are ways to do it, mostly involving the organised BDSM scenes, but around here those folks are generally not to my taste. Also I'm jealous, it would only be fair to let my wife fuck other dudes as well and that makes me super jealous and insecure just to think about for a moment. So we roleplay, and it is fucking great. I never thought spanking my wife for some imagined transgression and then fucking her while telling her her pussy was too loose and I was going to find a young tight cunt to breed instead would be something I was into, but damn it's hot, especially when you see how much it turns on your partner to let your most selfish, cruel parts take over for a little while. And then we cuddle and get pizza, everyone wins.

29

@REVOLT - I know these guys and have been friends with them, and while a lot of the comments pointing out things you could personally do differently are spot on, I wanted to add that yes, a lot of guys absolutely suck. That said ... a lot of people in general absolutely suck. There are a lot of guys that don't suck, though (there are lots and lots of guys out there), so if you're 0 for 5 in finding a decent one, besides Dan's advice (which is great) about what to do when you find one (bye Felicia), it's probably a good time to start identifying where the overlap between your "type" and traits that correlate strongly with being a selfish douchebag overlap (a giant Venn Diagram wall poster?), and try to tease those thigns apart.

Waiting to make a relationship (5 seconds long or months long) sexual until you have a good sense of the other person is a great idea, especially when that other person belongs to a group that is statistically the biggest threat to your wellbeing on the planet (AKA Men). Give your radar (Douche-dar?) some time to develop.

30

@18 I think you will find more Engineers listening to Savage Love than many other job descriptions.

31

@TRC/LW2 - As someone whose history of childhood abuse has led to some "kinks" in adulthood, I feel your pain. For me, it's a giant manifestation of the permanent impact that things completely out of my control have had on my life which is frustrating, to say the least. The best I have managed as far as coming to terms with it is noting that a lot of my personality traits that are positive in adulthood (in moderation) come from negative places - my ability to read people, make people laugh, and basically all the other cliche "child of conflict" stuff.

If things having negative origins stopped us from embracing them as they are now, we'd have to leave the country (founded on a few centuries of genocide), refuse to take most medicines or use most cosmetics, etc. Enjoy your kink, even if just in your imagination - the alternative is a perpetual self-shame.

32

@pythag Gandhi unilaterally ended his sex life with his wife and instead made his young nieces sleep naked with him and give him baths & massages so that he could prove to the world that he had so repressed all his sexual desires that young naked girls rubbing on his naked body and cuddling with him did not turn him on. All of which was pretty damn selfish, also directly proportional to the selfishness of many of his political actions. If there is a correlation between kindness/selfishess (I have no opinion on the question), then Gandhi would not be a counter example.

@RE I took that to mean in her sexual encounters with the five men b/c the sentence before was about how the guys all had orgasms during sex but she'd never had one. But yes she might mean NEVER in which case, step one is to learn to masturbate. Though I don't want to be so casual in saying that- a poster here did write in once with a long bit about how she'd found it very difficult to orgasm AT ALL, and I have no advice to give for a situation like that. I guess if that's the case, the LW should consider what it is she wants from sex, what other funs, pleasures and intimacies she enjoys, and redirect towards that.

Also smajor is right that while 5 out of 5 guys being selfish/lazy fucks seems to indicate the problem includes something the LW is doing so that's what we are focusing on, it's still a very small sample size, and it could be she's just had really bad luck and happened to be meet 5 selfish/lazy dudes. Also how they met. Some guys on a quick hookup or a one time thing are less likely to give a shit about anything other than getting themselves off, even if they are capable of being good lovers when they are invested in the situation.

33

Centrists @27, I hate to agree, but it sounds like you're onto something. Why are these men sticking their dicks into REVOLT straightaway? Because they expect women to let them stick their dicks into them straightaway. Yes, feminism means we don't have to deny our own sexual needs for fear of being slut shamed; if we wanna have casual sex, we should have casual sex. But we don't have to, and if jumping right into casual sex isn't accomplishing the purpose of female satisfaction then maybe society at large should focus more on female masturbation as a way for women to get what we want, and allow us to delay sex until the dude feels like he has some vested interest in pleasing her.

DrJones @28, thanks for your comment! I don't see any commentators telling TRC her kink is wrong. One person misunderstanding it, sure. The fact that you are concerned about your third's needs tells me already that you would pay attention to her needs rather than treat her like a prop. All I would ask is why do you think you need to be "fair" and let your wife have sex with other men when she doesn't actually want sex with other men? This fantasy isn't for you, it's for her -- therefore you're already doing something for her, you don't need to be "fair" and let her do something else that neither of you seems to actually want. Hope you find your special guest star some day, and in the meantime, sounds like you're fulfilling this fantasy in a drama- and STI-free way.

34

@14 EmmaLiz and @21 no
I agree that she needs to negotiate before any sexy stuff starts. I would suggest something like:

"I've had some really unpleasant experiences lately with guys who were only focused on getting off as fast as possible. I felt used, uncomfortable, and didn't get a chance to enjoy it. I want to take our time. Lots of cuddling, making out, fondling, and exploring each other. I want you to eat me out before even considering penetration."

Lots of guys are up for that, without any pressure for more. Also, while "running the fuck", she can focus on things other than his cock. Sucking his thumb or nipples, licking his skin then breathing on it, kissing her way up his thighs, etc. Foreplay is for guys, too. Really focus on it being sensual for both of them.

35

@13 Miko and @26 BiDanFan
I disagree it's about age. Plenty of men in their 40's-60's are selfish jerks about sex, based on comments from friends and what I have seen on the internet. Likewise that lots of guys who are 18-20's can be empathetic and care about their partner's pleasure.

I haven't had sex per se with any 20-somethings since my boyfriend who I dated from when we were 20-28. I have done lots of kink play with guys in that age bracket. They were just as focused on my pleasure and as attuned to my body language as the older guys.

I don't think it's about their sexual resume, either. I have dated a few guys who were virgins or very inexperienced. They were happy to let me "run the fuck" and guide them, even if I wound up being submissive with them. They were very focused on my body language, my breathing, the sounds I made, etc.

36

I wonder if LW1’s bad experiences with male lovers has anything do to do with the shifting times and politics, as miko @ 12 also pointed out. (and apparently some other posters chimed in as I was typing this)
60’s and 70’s feminism brought awareness to women’s sexual needs as well as empowerment to talk about the issues and lead a lover to the preferred action/s and body part/s.

There has been lots of push back attempts ever since and I wonder if any of it translates to women’s reluctance to address their needs, while men feel entitled/obligated to behave as LW’s lovers do. A new wave of world leaders is all about their decisive, know it all selfish masculinity, and the need to put women back in their place in order to sustain such sentiments.
I hear the popularity of “50 shades,” written by a woman for mainly female crowd, have also placed women in an odd position while sending a message to young men that despite all this equality talk, underneath it all women do expect them to be assholes in and out of the bedroom.

EL- I always thought Ghandi was overrated.

37

TRC, good for you for working with therapists on your issues! And enjoy the heck out of your kink. It's the least the universe could do to provide a silver lining to your issues.

38

As someone who just turned 30 and has slept with a ton of women (and also men) I will say one thing I've noticed is that the vast majority of women simply don't say anything about what they want. Even when I have asked them! We'll be enjoying foreplay and I'll whisper in their ear after they're really getting into it, "what do you want me to do next?" and 95/100 times it's "I don't know" or "whatever you want."

It's entirely possible you're running into subpar sex partners, but it also would not surprise me in the least if you're not at all expressing what you want. We can't know unless you tell us. Either with words or, perhaps, grabbing our head and pushing it down between your legs.

39

Opalescent @35, you're correct -- there are selfish older men and gleefully giving young ones. However, there is a correlation. If she's only dating young men and only encountering selfish men, she might try older men and see if she gets better results, is the point I hoped to make. DrJones's suggestion @28 of dating geeky men is also a good one. Beyond that, I haven't encountered enough selfish men to make generalisations. I guess I'm just the kind of gal whose uncompromising personality scares off the selfish jerks -- lucky me! Don't take shit from men, and you won't have to deal with shit men. Sex does get much better when one is old enough to shake off the idea that you're not entitled to be demanding in bed. Men like a woman who knows what she wants -- and gives back, of course!

40

Citizensnips @38, amen. Women have been socialised with this idea that it's romantic for men to read our minds and just magically know what we want. That's bull. Men, of course we want foreplay, take that as a given. But women, speak the fuck up. Fairy tales aren't real and he CANNOT read your mind. Just letting him get on with something you don't want to be happening makes you just as bad a lover as him.

41

oh @33 she would like it, this isn't her only kink. If I got her a few extra dicks to suck she would be over the moon. Especially if I 'made' her do it. I think sometimes that in a BDSM context it would be fine, since I would be the one in control, but anything that veers towards me being submissive, humiliated or her preferring others company would be shredding, my self esteem issues are somewhere between Out of Work Actor and Bullied Kid.

Which, to get totally off topic, is one reason BDSM has been a godsend. I was recently laid off from a job I'd had for decades and even though the prospects are good the mental strain of rejection and having to prove myself again and again are a lot for me. But being able to Dom has been one of the two great sources of confidence for me. Yeah it's an act, but it's also something to succeed at and great practice at faking it till you make it.

42

I agree that the LW needs to use words such as "Lots of foreplay, mutual oral, enough touch to get me going or, better yet, get me off at least once—all of these things have to happen before we fuck." A simpler demand, maybe: "Help me have an orgasm first. Then we'll decide what to do about yours."

43

I don't quite follow how being a cuckquean is linked in the lw's mind to behavior that's afraid of, or avoids, intimacy. It takes a lot of trust and intimacy to negotiate your bf's consensually fucking someone else--it's an intensification of intimacy. How is it that her therapists have agreed with her that the fantasy entails an unwillingness to accept just being wholehearted with the lover she's with? (if so?).

44

@27. Centrists. No, REVOLT should speed things up. Five lovers--that's too low a sample--too low to know whether she's been unlucky, or she has a habit of choosing shitty lovers. I'd say 'have sex with many more men, and learn what gets you off'. Then someone in REVOLT's position can make her getting off a requirement for any relationship--and she will have a good-ish idea of how this happens, so as to be able to give clear instructions to any guy she wants to be with for emotional, and not simply sexual, reasons. (Equally, the sex being great could be a precondition of a relationship--and she could find a compatible partner, intellectually and emotionally, among the men with whom sex is potentially great).

(There is of course the possibility that REVOLT does not want to have sex with anyone unless she cares for them. She only says she was in love with one former partner. She needs to 'use her words' to have a partnered orgasm whether she cares for her partner or not, and whatever she supposes the fallout will be of her having insisted on her own pleasure).

With TRQ, I'm with everyone who is urging her to accept her kink. The next question is, does she want to enact it, and how? What are the steps she can take towards doing so? The first, it would seem, is to tell her lover that she's turned on by the thought of him fucking another woman.

46

@CMD re:50 Shades

Agree with you of how this comes across in the wider culture, but I have a different interpretation of that story. It's obviously about deep sexual repression and fear. The protagonist is a virgin. She meets a rich good looking man who offers her luxury and thinks she's the cat's pajamas- all she has to do is surrender herself to him. Nothing else. She doesn't have to learn to be a good lover or a good partner or become an interesting person or share any struggle or make any sacrifices. She just does as she's told and gets rewarded with sexual pleasure and riches. And it's perfectly safe because he loves her, he loves her for her mind, he's hot and has a nice cock, and he marries her, he's her one and only forever and ever super special sexy hot safe love.

Being sexual requires some vulnerability and- especially for women- relaxing enough to let go of inhibitions and really lose oneself in the moment. Romance for women (sexual romance I mean here, those Fabio books etc) have always been about being able to surrender - but I think we interpret it too literally. It's about letting go of inhibitions which is hard to do b/c of culture and also b/c of real risk- so you create a fantasy in which all those concerns are taken out of your hands and now there's nothing left but surrendering to the pleasure. I think it gets interpreted to literally as being submissive or wanting to be dominated. If it were a story about a dom woman, she'd have to take control of herself and her life, and that requires skill and consequences. But even if you were to use those stories as a guide (which duh you shouldn't) - was the guy actually an asshole? I think the fantasy was about releasing your autonomy to someone else who you know is going to take care of you, center you, including your pleasure. Since it's a fantasy, it's over the top, but it's about trust and lust, not a selfish person treating someone else like shit. And I think it's popular recently in our times for two reasons- the first because the world is so fast changing now, insecurity/precarity in general. The second because women have become more sexually liberated so a story about a sexy rich prince who rescues the everyday woman from whatever dark forest now includes loads of fucking, not just a wedding and roses and happily ever after.

But overall, surely the same men who jack off to pics and porn portraying shit that they don't really believe in real life can understand that likewise loads of women like to fantasize about things that they don't really believe in real life.

47

In short, it's popular as fantasy for the same reason it's popular for men to think of having a sexbot or a sex slave or an adoring submissive lover woman who just wants to worship you- in fantasy, we want to dream about having all our pleasures met, having ourselves centered by others, being adored/respected/celebrated, without having to do much of anything to work on ourselves nor make any sacrifices nor have to meet the needs of others, etc.

What might be interested is the mixed messages it sends, which is CMD's bigger point I think. To women- they actually read the books which are all about the guy doing lots and lots of non-PIV (as well as PIV) stuff to this woman that makes her have orgasms, lots of nipple play, lots of eating pussy, lots of finger, lots of teasing and lingering in make out sessions. Which of course we all do, but since the protagonist doesn't have to do a single damn thing to make it happen, she just has to be the receiver of pleasure and do what a skillful giver of pleasure tells her to do in order to increase her own pleasure. This is fantasy. No one wants to have to work in their fantasies. And to men, perhaps some just think "see, women fantasize about being dominated" which dismisses all the centering of her pleasure and is such a shallow understanding of fantasy, akin to the LWs who say stuff like "oh my man jacks to porn of women who don't look like me so he's going to cheat". ETC

48

@43 Harriet and the LW etc regarding the cuck kink- part of the kink for some people is in confronting the insecurity or fear around being betrayed. For some people, it's about humiliation as well (I think with men this is a part of it). Cucking is different than hot wifing (or hot husbanding or hot partnering or whatever) but I can totally see how both could come out of insecurities, as do most kinks.

For myself, (not cucking and not wanting to witness such things and also not into humiliation but very into hearing about my husband's dalliances and also in watching the way women flirt with him), for myself, there is a component of "I have the cake all the girls want" but also a big component that comes out of a fear of betrayal- confronting fears and anxieties in a safe way can be tantalizing, you come to the precipice which is scary but you don't jump, so there is some adrenaline rush involved that's thrilling but without the actual real risk. I suppose it's a similar feeling for a lot of kinks- the mixture of things that scare you / trouble you with pleasure. Most of us like haunted houses, the scarier the better, we really are afraid of someone jumping out of the darkness to attack us tho in play it's fun whereas in real life it would be terrible.

And finally, a big part of fear of betrayal and the insecurities around thinking someone might like someone more than they like you (which I think are two different things) is a lack of control- there's really nothing you can do about it. You must trust other people even though you can't control them or even every really know what they are thinking / feeling. And the world is full of people and most of them are going to be better than you in some way or another. So it can be liberating to stop worrying about it and just crack that box open and say- here's your playground, come what may. Like, if we pull this out into the sunlight, we don't have to hide it in the darkness. And I'm not as afraid of things I can see clearly.

All that said, I'm not saying my own experience is the same. I don't like feeling shame/humiliation nor feel any around hot husbanding- that's not a part of either my fears nor my pleasures, just a negative feeling that has little to do with my sexuality, so a cuck queen like the LW might feel this differently.

Then there's the actual lusty thrill, just the sensual pleasures (what a man's sexy body looks like when he's fucking, how he sounds, what he says, the build up to it) imaging all of that with another woman, thinking about that- it allows me to remove myself from the situation and be sort of a voyeur, which is an entirely different set of pleasures that I don't think have much to do with insecurities. It's like any sexual fantasy or witness of another's pleasure, like watching others fuck- except I get to have it later too. Like, if I had to choose between smelling a delicious meal that someone else is eating or eating a delicious meal myself, then of course I'd choose the former. But if I could do both, the anticipation and vicarious pleasure enhances my own that comes later. Also there's the pride- when I see you appreciate a meal I get to have regularly, it enhances my sense that I have something desirable. Etc.

Of course those days have been over for us for a few years now, so I'm probably getting myself hot and bothered trying to explain it for no reason, and so to the LW I can say, yeah you are probably going to hardwire your brain a bit in that way like you do with anything else that you practice. So what? Something is going to be hardwired in your brain. It's not like the alternative is a clean slate.

49

@Harriet, 44

Again, many casual encounters with different men is not going to increase the potential for good sex from the woman's POV. What will is less casual encounters with a man who will take the time to learn her body with her. Not all women and all that, but this is much more the norm due to the mechanics of female orgasm, bodies, etc. As we've had this conversation a million times before I'll leave it at that except to say (before you misinterpret again) that I'm not talking about love or emotion here but physical familiarity and genuine thoughtful attempts towards mutual pleasure.

50

REVOLT: a really, really common dating practice between men and women is that the first few times they have sex, only the man has an orgasm. If they sleep together three or so times without her coming, and he’s not really inexperienced or a total jerk, he’ll say “hey listen, I want to know how to make you come” and then they’ll work that into their sex life—and yeah, I said “work it into their sex life”, as if it were some kind of extraneous add-on. This is, of course, a really sexist norm.

Your fellow women who fuck men are not all on your side here—some women find it awkward to cum with a new partner, to explain how to make them cum, to face the pressure of not cumming—and there’s this cultural tendency to view the male orgasm as the core of sex itself, like if he doesn’t come, sex hasn’t happened, and if she comes it’s just a nice add-on. The result is that a lot of women DON’T want to expend the effort to come on the first date, and DO want their partner to come.

So the dudes you’ve slept with are in fact doing what MANY women would prefer them to do—except wait, stop, they aren’t, since what most women would ACTUALLY prefer would be to orgasm during sex without having to feel weird about it. But we don’t live in a world where that’s commonplace, it takes effort to make that world real, and men are well-served by the status quo. So women have adopted this shitty, suboptimal workaround.

(It’s true that women contribute to this dynamic by not advocating for their sexual needs. But personally I think it’s likely, given that under these rules men are having a lot more orgasms than women, that men are a liiittle less motivate to change the dynamic, wouldn’t you say? Wouldn’t you agree that the party who benefits from a situation is, you know, on average, probably a little more likely to be the one contributing to it?)

So, REVOLT, am inspired by your quest to TANK THE WORKAROUND and make it obsolete. I think Dan’s advice (no intercourse until you come) is great, and that’s also the approximate sex blueprint that most ESTABLISHED female-male couples arrive at—it’s only in the early days that lots of people do the “only he comes” routine. You can phrase it sexy, and many guys will be grateful for the clarity and the sexual appetite you’re displaying. You can phrase it bluntly, and many guys will be weirded out (this is ALSO A WIN, since I don’t personally recommend sleeping with guys who are overburdened by the simple suggestion that both of you could have an orgasm, and trust me, turning down sex that isn’t right for you is one of the absolute best feelings in the world). Or you can phrase it honestly, and just tell people exactly what you told us—that this is something you’ve been thinking about a lot, and a way that you want to do things differently in your life. The right men for you will be the ones who are fascinated, eager to talk more about it and ready to embark with you on your voyage to better sex. Good luck and stand your ground!

51

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/08/28/trumps-worst-poll-yet/
"A new...poll...shows [Trump] trailing all five Democrats tested by between nine and 16 points. He trails Joe Biden 54 to 38, Bernie Sanders 53 to 39, Elizabeth Warren 52 to 40, Kamala D. Harris 51 to 40 and Pete Buttigieg 49 to 40."

52

REVOLT-- Others have given you good advice when they tell you to communicate more. Here's some very specific advice on how to do it.

A big part of your new vocabulary has to become "hmmmm ... more." At some point during those terribly short to almost non-existent foreplay sessions, he's probably touched you where you want to be touched maybe a little, if only for a second. At the instant he starts to move away or perhaps a little before, you say "hmmmm ... more." So if he was sucking on your nipples and you want more, that's how you tell him. Do this to lengthen the time of everything you like.

Next vocabulary lesson: "Me first." This gives him the idea that he will get his chance ... after you get yours. You may add the happy, half moaning "hmmmm" here as well. This will mostly apply to oral, but it can apply to almost anything including getting your back rubbed.

Next: "Let's take turns." This works especially well before you get undressed. You unbutton his shirt. He starts to rush to unzip his pants. You say "let's take turns" and insist that he unbutton your shirt. Again, he rushes, but you take your time undressing him. You're setting the pace.

Even before you get to that point, take the attitude that he has to win you over. Try to meet guys in situations where there is dancing or some other physical activity so you can get an idea of how they move in their bodies. I am not going off the deep end toward some sort of The Rules nonsense, but it you want to meet guys who are going to take it slow in bed, the pace has to start way before you get into bed. He has to feel like he's winning you over, then getting you so turned on that you want to go faster. Start that long before it's known that you're going to have sex together.

Let's say he's gotten to the point where he's entered you, and now he's thrusting away. Place your hands on his hips and tell him you want to change positions. Doesn't matter what the position was when you started, now you want to switch. The very act of turning over or moving a leg will slow things down and make him think about you again rather than being focused on himself.

53

citizensnips @38 - "95/100 times it's "I don't know" or "whatever you want.""
It's often harder for a woman to figure out what kind of touch she likes than it is for men. She may honestly not know. Like, I'd heard I was supposed to like nipple play, but I actually found it vaguely irritating. It took about ten years of being sexual that I realized I needed much harder stimulation (clamps, pinching, biting, etc.) and then I loved nipple play.

I'm also not interested in cunnilingus, and I thought for a long time it might be due to insecurities around smell, etc. (Also having been assaulted that way in high school.) But then recently I discovered rimming, and I love those sensations. So apparently my body just doesn't enjoy cunnilingus and it's NOT because I have societal hangups. It's just me.

So maybe if you offered to give your attention to a body part (ass, nipples, inner thigh, earlobe, back of neck, etc.) with a range of sensation from mild to intense -- stopping whenever she wants, of course -- then the two of you could make some progress in figuring out what she likes.

In other words, it's not always that women expect men to be mind-readers. Mind-reading wouldn't even help, if she doesn't have any idea internally of what would make her feel good.

54

Re those advocating "she comes first," that will work well for some people, but for those of us who already struggle to orgasm, adding pressure doesn't make sense.

I'd rather discuss up front a range of fun sexy activities which will give both of us fond memories, and then reduce the pressure on anyone to orgasm or have a hard erection.

55

EL @ 46
“It's about letting go of inhibitions which is hard to do b/c of culture and also b/c of real risk- so you create a fantasy in which all those concerns are taken out of your hands and now there's nothing left but surrendering to the pleasure.”

Yes, there’s that angle too. Reminds me a conversation I had couple of years ago with a woman writer around my age who mentioned firemen in some of her poems in the context of mild fantasy and longing. When I asked her what is this infatuation with firemen all about she said them being fit is far from the sum up. “They do only good, save lives and help people.”

The exchange came to mind after watching “Magic Mike” few weeks ago. (A neighborhood small artsy cinema was showing it on their opening night, full of screaming and laughing younger crowd). All the male dancers want is make women happy and feel good about themselves, regardless of appearance or age.

56

@53 EricaP
Also, the kind of touch we want can change based on our arousal, or from one encounter to the next. You can't just give a Kama sutra style instruction manual. We need to be able to read our body language, and adapt on the fly.

57

@39 BiDanFan
I agree that Revolt needs to change her partner selection process. I just don't think that changing their age range will help much.

I haven't experienced selfish sexual or kink partners either. The guys who are attracted to me have all been very empathetic and focused on my pleasure, except the one guy who was abusive back when I was 19.

58

DrJones @41, thanks for clarifying, though you still don't need to agree to something you don't want to do because it's "fair"! Cuckqueaning interests you both, so you do it (or share fantasies about it); cuckolding interests only her, so you get a veto. This is different from requesting a relationship that is open on one side only, or demanding other opposite-sex partners because your bi partner wants same-sex partners which you are not. Glad your Domming has unleashed your confidence, hope you can carry a version of it into your job interviews.

Joan @42: Or, "I like a guy who's a gentleman, and that means that the lady comes first"?

EmmaLiz @46-@47, interesting take. It's worth noting (I haven't read the books) that in this type of fantasy, one key aspect is that the "dominant" man "makes" the heroine do no more or less than she wants to do, which is highly unrealistic. So she gets all the pleasure but none of the guilt because it was all "his idea." How convenient! Also, good point that some of the same men who say violent porn is fine because men don't really want to do those things point to Fifty Shades as evidence that women want to be dominated in real life. Um.
I also read an article claiming that Fifty Shades is so popular because the women reading it identify both with the woman who is ceding control and with the man who is in control. Remember that a woman wrote these books -- ultimately the hero is just following the instructions of a woman who's topping from the bottom!

EmmaLiz @49, agree completely with this post as well. REVOLT may need to have lots more sex, but she doesn't need to have lots more random sex. That will not allow her to explore her sexuality; instead it will be a replay over and over of one certain kind of sex, a kind that she has already found to be unsatisfying. If you try one kind of food and don't like it, you don't keep eating that food until it starts to taste good. You get fussier about what you eat.

Sarah @50: I'm shocked, though I suppose I shouldn't be, that you view this dynamic as "common." If someone does not even try to make me come on the first shag, they do not get a second or third! Oh, now that she's shown she is willing to accept bad sex, let's try to make it good? I agree, that attitude needs to go in the bin. Besides, if someone has an "I come first, you're an afterthought" attitude toward sex, no doubt they have that same attitude toward the rest of the relationship, and this is how women end up with abusers.

Fichu @52, good tips. "Don't stop" is another good one.

EricaP @54, good point, though it doesn't sound like the men she's been with have even tried to get her to come during sex. If she finds herself an attentive lover and still can't get there, then agree, "my pleasure too" becomes measured in ways other than whether she had an orgasm.

59

REVOLT: You are allowed to pick the guys you want to sleep with. You didn't order these guys through an Amazon 3rd-party seller.

TRC: Plenty of straight guys have cuckold fetishes, most never question WHY, or if they do, don't care to let it be a reason to deny themselves that fantasy. You don't need to either. Your fantasy = your fantasy! You can get cuck'd in a way that debases your value, or you can be cucked in a way that heightens your elation and gives you the orgasm you want. Don't let psychobabble get in the way of a good nut.

Also gimme your digits.

60

EmmaLiz, no - you are saying you disagree with me but it's unclear how.. Yes she might not have been referring to intercourse when she said fucking, or when she mentioned "normal sex". Still she never says she's into a threesome and describes herself as straight so I wouldn't assume that was her fantasy either. We only know that she gets off easily when she's thinking about him fucking someone else somehow. Whether this is true only while having sex with him somehow, or during masturbation too is unclear. Maybe there's a reason she seems afraid to think about this deeply, and describe her ideal cuckquean scenario, or consider threesomes, an open relationship, or talk to her boyfriend about her feelings. That means explore carefully not ignore!

BDF - "TRC says her kink is "fantasizing about my boyfriends fucking other women,"... while having sex in order to come."
Yes. I think we agree? Except I'm not sure she really wants a threesome, I think she might really just want to be able to talk to her boyfriend about this without sounding crazy, or like she's giving him permission to have sex the next time he feels horny around someone else, or like they have to open their relationship up afterwards, or have a threesome, or start frequenting swingers clubs. Maybe her real underlying fantasy is that she has a boyfriend who she can open up about her weirdest feelings with and dirty talk without further expectations.. Or maybe at the end of her road are gangbangs who knows.

It's funny I think all four of us have said we enjoy some aspect of our partner fucking others while with us.

TRC - I'm imagining my guy fucking someone else about 99 percent of the time in order to come. I wish I could get more enjoyment from "normal" sex.
Well there is no "normal sex". Do you mean the physical aspects of sex, you hate that you're so mental and off in your head? I thought this referred to intercourse but not necessarily.

Maybe she doesn't fear rejection or judgement. But she might still fear replacement if he likes someone else better, or sharing her boyfriend's resources with another lover.. Time, money, sperm spring to mind as possibilities.. Also she doesn't actually know that he would really want to sleep with someone else, maybe that's common but not all guys are the same. I think she should flesh out her feelings more, by herself or talking with others, before talking to bf, so she sets his expectations correctly.

61

REVOLT - "it's easy to tell when the guy I'm with just wants to come and that is the only thing on his mind."
No, it is not. It is not easy to mind read. It is easy to assume. It is rude to assume. He might have been trying to do something he thought would get you off and was just really really misguided about how your body works. Yes some actually don't care but most are redeemable I think.

People maybe aren't as smart or competent as you think. Maybe it's easy to get bitter and blame but better results if you patiently recognize teaching moments.

62

Sentence 2: That's where her mind goes first? It sounds as if she rather likes the idea in the abstract. Get men's backs up, and then checkmate them with her irrefutable case.

Sentences 3-4: She seems to want full credit for her partners' enjoyment, clearly inviting the inference that they only have a good time because she can figure out what they want. They appear to her to have no agency in the matter.

Sentences 5-6: And rather than figure out how and then be able to guide her partners what amount of curve at which arrow will get the pocket hit for the perfect strike, she'd rather (or I could at least take a brief to argue this case, whether I believed it or not) feel morally superior to or just ever so much smarter than her partners.

Sentences 7-8: I'll give LW the benefit of the doubt and assume her partners don't just default to their own pleasure when she proves herself an insufficient agent for hers. I'll agree with those inclined to look into her selection process. Why does she seek or accept such men? I could probably accept a brief to argue that she just misses the little tells that they will turn out to be exclusively self-centred in bed, or one to argue that she's getting exactly what her subconscious wants. I could say something about getting it over with versus stopping, which is far from a female-only concern, but, never having had any sort of OS encounter, I shall defer to the experts on this occasion.

Sentences 9-10: That it might be a good idea to distinguish between those men who ought to care about their female partners' pleasure and don't, and those men for whom it is entirely right and proper to think that women deserve pleasure but to have no interest in or even a positive sense of revulsion to the idea of providing that pleasure personally, never seems to enter her head. LW is probably exactly the sort of woman who would end up being in charge in any future matriarchy. I could easily see someone who could write this letter signing an executive order that all teen boys must acquire a level of proficiency in providing oral service to women, and thinking even as she signed it that it would do the gay ones good, and maybe even turn some of us onto her idea of a better path. Now, of course, OS men should realize personally that women have needs, too. As for why so many don't, I'll defer to those experts capable of bearing in mind that some men are not supposed to be pleasing women.

Sentences 11-12: This is reminding me of Mr Darcy's Accomplished Woman - Mr Bingley is amazed to think of how accomplished all young women of his class appear to be, Mr Darcy claims to know only six, and Elizabeth, on hearing the requirements, is not surprised he knows only six but rather marvels that he knows any.

Sentences 13-14: Receiving similar treatment dispensed with a similar attitude might have me feel used had it ever happened, but it never happened. There were things I learned I didn't like, but then I did not play the same record and expect to hear different songs. LW seems to think men are all the same record, but she still wants to hear different songs anyway.

Sentence 15: Maybe she is. I do still have a cosmic vibration that she would rather keep choosing takers and gripe about them than do the work to learn to recognize, appeal to, and eventually choose other givers.

Sentences 16-18: And I have another cosmic vibration that she'd enjoy life more if she could.

63

REVOLT has fucked five guys in six years and by my calculation started having sex in her late teens/early twenties. She is now "ready to become a "man-hating feminist" based on this somewhat underwhelming sampling. NOT saying this is true, but I've met more than a few bitter women who were eager to lay the blame for their terrible love life on anyone who was closest at hand, but CERTAINLY not accept any responsibility themselves. (I'll be honest, I've met a bunch of dudes with the same mentality...it's an equal-opportunity affliction). And, while I made a hasty exit upon encountering such negativity, I (sadly) know a handful of guys who would be happy to just "fuck her and leave her" because they would think she deserved it for "being such a bitch". So, either A) REVOLT as terrible taste in the guys she chooses, B) Has terrible LUCK in the guys she chooses, or C) Maybe is creating a self-fulfilling prophecy with her own bad attitude. Speaking only for myself, I was having some mind-blowing sex in my twenties, and according to the women I talked with, so were they (not just with me, I'm not that conceited, but with a lot of their other partners as well.) And, it wasn't a matter of experience...the girls who enjoyed it the most, and who I enjoyed the most were the ones willing to enthusiastically give it the old college try, even if it was something new (ESPECIALLY if it was something new!) Perhaps a look in the mirror is in order.

64

Mizz Liz - [No one wants to have to work in their fantasies.]

Unsurprisingly, our worlds do not intersect. But I shall bear in mind that that's part of yours.

65

BiDanFan - personally, I don't even want to get out the vibrator and try for an orgasm on our first sexy time together. What I'm assessing is if they're listening to what I say about my preferences for intense stimulation and if they're happy to do impact play in the ways I like. Working towards my orgasm isn't part of the event until we've built up a lot of trust.

lol, instead of "she comes first," I'd say -- "spanking comes first."

66

L-dub #1, I'm all for going with the flow, but the flow isn't working for you. Use the words, and back up those words with action, or in this case, a lack of action.

L-dub #2... if you're fantasizing about your kink 99% of the time, it's way past time to just give in already and try it out.

67

Donny, "And, while I made a hasty exit upon encountering such negativity, I (sadly) know a handful of guys who would be happy to just "fuck her and leave her" because they would think she deserved it for "being such a bitch". "

yup regardless of the proportion of blame in the situation (either bad luck with finding selfish guys or something the LW is doing - or not doing- that is influencing these situations) the unhappy yet expected outcome is that her response to the situation is to participate in a feedback loop. Bummer.

Venn, on some days I think Jibe Ho is more right about you than others.

Philo, the only thing I was disagreeing with is that her fantasy being incompatible with fucking the dude while it plays out. They can incorporate this fantasy into their sex life in real time while she's got that cock. If you weren't intending to say this is impossible, then sorry for the misinterpretation.

68

Come The Revolution, I’ll suggest both these young women join Fan’s team. She’d have them up and running in no time.

69

@63 DonnyK
It could be that she is just negative. Nobody deserves to be "fucked and left because they're a bitch," though. I think it's most likely a combination of things.

She is picking men who are lazy, self-centered, and don't care about her pleasure. I don't know whether that's because she is lousy at screening them out, has been abused or otherwise projects a sense of being easy to use and throw out with the condom, or if she perceives them as her only options for sex.

Some other issues are that she doesn't ask for what she needs to get off. She lets them have sex with her when she isn't aroused. She is unhappy but doesn't communicate about it,or they don't care that she isn't enjoying it.

I think the bitter feminazi thing is a front to try to protect herself and set boundaries that she struggles with enforcing. I don't think she is bitter or hateful, just hurt and frustrated.

70

@48 I don't have the cuck aspect but I also have zero insecurity or fear of betrayal or jealousy w it - I just want him to go out and have fun and report back. So it can vary, those feelings are not an intrinsic part of the kink but are probably more common than not?

71

@61 it is easy to tell bc they don't ask, they don't make any effort, they don't take any time. They don't ask for a demo, or to learn. The lousy ones don't listen. To whoever said women won't tell him what they want when he asks so they get what they get- see EricaP's answer and also - if the lesbians can figure this out so can you, having a vagina does not induct you into how other vaginas work, it only makes the power imbalance equal so questions are easier to ask and both are socialized to be considerate. Ask specific questions. Help her figure her body out. There's a lot she can't reach or leverage that you can, a lot you can do that she can't. I'm sure women have done this for you, return the favor. Be encouraging and experimental and seek feedback. Maybe they don't say bc guys have been shitty in the past about learning. Make an effort. Focus on the other person above yourself for a couple of months. It's really easy and fun. Just use your words.

72

And I'm sticking w the hothusbanding label for the LW. She doesn't say she's into humiliation and I think she would have included that bc she talks about worries of an unhealthy mental state but doesn't include that. There is nothing unhealthy about wanting to share your husband's cock, on the contrary if he's any good in bed it's generous, thoughtful and kind. According to LW1 there's a desperate unmet need out there. You can be that hero!

73

@43 I think shrinks might be clueless/too in their head about it. I have absolutely delighted a number of female gynecologists w tales of him though. I make a point of normalizing it w them bc I know they don't get any sex positive education w their med degree. Haven't told male docs though, wouldn't unless they were gay. I don't know what shrinks get educationwise. There are ways to slow roll this too, she'll know very quickly where her comfort level is once they start testing it out, first w words.

74

@65 sure, sub satisfied for orgasm, only using orgasm cause LW uses it. Satisfied is better all around cause what if you need ten orgasms (minimum!) for that? What LW really means is satisfied. Culturally we figure female orgasm is optional, male orgasm = successful sex, that doesn't even coincide with male satisfaction, no one's happy.

75

@65 I think you've mentioned FMF threesomes w your SO, wondered if this is the same pattern you follow w women?
Cause I agree w you it's not really a first encounter expectation, I'm extremely orgasmic and I wouldn't expect that either w a guy. But w a woman I would.

76

@69 Opalescent: WA-HOOOO!!! Congratulations on scoring this week's Lucky @69 Award! Savor the high coveted glory. :)

77

@63 Donny Klicious: I didn't piss you off, did I, Donny (re Shrinkage) ? I saw an opening I couldn't resist and was just trying to be funny. :)

78

Okay-- back to Come the Revolution, now that Griz is finally caught up. :)

79

LW1 - at least make it to episode 5 on that podcast, the one w the gay guy who has had the same problem as you. Turns out Dan was on it too later on, haven't gotten that far yet.

80

LW1, stop all sexual activities with men.
and self pleasure until you find your orgasm. I prefer fingers, because with the hair there it’s quite interesting terrain. Half the fun really.
Anyways. Find your orgasm. I use coconut oil, because it is an organic substance, and a very good lube. Think dirty thoughts re your idea beaus coming in to please you.
Your fantasies are a weapon, you will find, and a filter. Be more discerning in the boys you bed.
I agree with others above, take the time to get to meet the person for a bit before sex happens. It’s called erotic tension.
You are the Mistress of your choices, the buck stops with you.

81

Philo @60, there are many potential configurations for a threesome. Not all of them require each participant to have sex with the others. Witness the recent proposal by two straight guys that one would go down on a woman and the other would fuck her afterwards. That is a threesome. TRC could realise her fantasy by inviting a woman to join them, whom Mr TRC would have sex with while she watched, then he would have sex with her, that is also a threesome. We don't agree because you seem to think her fantasy requires the impossible feat of Mr TRC growing an extra penis or cloning himself to have sex with both women at once, which I don't see at all.

But I do agree that she may not want to realise the fantasy in real life; she may just want to share it, via dirty talk, without feeling judged. Or, indeed, she may that if she shares her fantasy he'll run off to the nearest swingers club immediately to try to make it happen. If that's the case she should tell him this is fantasy only, which she wants to include him in. (Or not. It's not necessary to share everything that goes through one's head during sex, even if it involves one's real-life partner. If you're both enjoying yourselves, what's in your head doesn't matter.)

Donny @63, well observed.

Venn @64: Good catch. That sentence is not true; many of us do enjoy fantasies where we are in control.

EricaP @65, you are not this LW. This LW is in her mid 20s. Unlike yourself, she has not yet discovered what makes sex enjoyable for her. Her lovers weren't bothered about trying to find out, and she has not been proactive about telling them. So unlike yourself, she doesn't know whether good oral sex will get her off, whether a vibrator will get her off, or whether she's one of those women like you who don't get off via vanilla means. Once she finds out, she can ask for whatever the thing is that she enjoys most. But first she needs to determine, via thorough investigation, what that thing or those things are.

Thank you, Lava @68! BDF's Sexual Assertiveness School for Young Women has a good ring to it.

Ms No @74, another good point. If I had only one orgasm I would be disappointed with the level of effort my partner had put in. These men aren't even attempting to give her one orgasm, they seem wholly unconcerned with whether she enjoyed herself. Men should not spank their partners by default, but they should engage in clitoral foreplay by default. It is then up to the woman in question to suggest that she would prefer to be spanked, get out a vibrator, whatever it is that gets her going.

(Ms No, point of admin, would you mind following the convention of @number and @username when referring back to previous comments? Thanks!)

82

I still want to make a rules sheet for LW1. Not sure what to put on it. Maybe "Your dick doesn't go near my pussy until you get me so goddamn desperate for it to be in there that I'm not just begging you but actually angry you're not inside me". That's a decent rule of thumb I think?

83

@81, paragraph 2, editing error: "she may FEAR that if she shares her fantasy..."

84

No @20 "There is a larger class of men who appear to prefer this, think that's the problem the LW his describing. They don't care if she's completely checked out."

You might be right, but where's your evidence? I'm going out on a limb and assuming that you can't point to any peer-reviewed research on this, and that you're statement comes from a combination of stereotyped and your experiences, which do not involve dating straight women.

I doubt very much that the difference is nearly as great as you imagine. Whereas a majority of women require stimulation other than PIV to achieve orgasm, the vast majority of men can always or nearly always come during PIV. I strongly suspect that for that reason, men are much less likely to complain about, and more likely to put up with, lackluster sex.

Emma Liz @ 32 Good God, I was borrowing Gandhi as an archetype for rhetorical purposes, rather than referring to him as a historical figure, the same way that a person might describe someone as "a Mother Theresea" without trying to launch into a debate about that actual person and her life's work. Nevertheless, your views on Gandhi strike me as extraordinarily simplistic -- perfectly befitting an age so uniformly hostile to nuance and context.

I can only assume that, should the release of the FBI tapes confirm the recent allegations about MLK, you'll immediately denounce him as a one-dimensional villain who did nothing worth celebrating.

85

Ms No @82, errrr... I don't want to be "actually angry" during sex, so, I think "desperate" is enough of a thumb for me. She could sex this up by asking her partners to make her beg for their cocks. There's always a positive spin to be put on, this is sex after all!

86

Rule: if you don't sexually satisfy me completely by hand and by mouth first (separate encounters? One encounter? Every time?), no penis contact?

I think the guys who complain about subpar enthusiasm during blowjobs will find their situation considerably improved if they do this first.

87

@84 pythag - beg to differ on the not having dated straight women front. That's where words came in really really handy. Peer reviewed? That's easy. Bi women have better orgasm rates w women then men. Guys are worse in bed. There is no study ever that's proved otherwise. Women also get sexually bored in relationships faster, but only cheat at an equal rate to men. We're slacking, for no good reason.

Putting up with lackluster sex is pretty much the entirety of history for women. The fact that we're all not gay is proof we are far more willing to tolerate lousy sex than men. The bar is incredibly low.

88

@85 bd- oh actually angry is great. Worth trying. You've never had a guy deny you his cock for waaaaaay longer than you wanted him to?

89

It would benefit LW1 to see that everyone is responsible for their own orgasm. Perhaps counterintuitively, this acceptance of responsibility actually gives everyone agency in the interaction. Negotiate your terms for sex - not compromising away your principles, safety or needs, and desires, but determining how you get there in a mutual process.

And it's not a paradox to buy into a mutuality where people are taking care of each other while not falling into the expectation that they be taken care of (e.g., like being swept away in some perfect romantic seduction fantasy). The former is agency, the latter is dependence.

90

@89 Rockyb you ever had sex where someone is completely ignoring you? I think it's something people who sleep with men have all experienced, to the point of being common and universal. Not sure about people who sleep with women, anyone want to chime in about the frequency/inescapability of that?

LW1, here's another woman who shares your plight.

@84 pythag - these are the higher quality guys. Above average. These guys are trying. This is what we're working with.

https://babe.net/2018/04/19/girls-asked-guys-orgasms-49976

91

@89rocky - I guess more specifically the question is: how many times have you had sex with a woman where she wouldn't touch your dick, vaginally or otherwise, only maybe rubbed your balls, but she got off herself and then rolled away/left? That's what we're talking about in equivalency.

92

Rocky - you know, given the high percentage of frequency of pain with sex that women experience, I'm going to actually do this. No explanation, just use a guy's balls to masturbate myself (oh I'll be gentle! I mean, I'll try!), make no effort to get him off, no explanation, and then call sex done once I cum. I just wanna see how it goes. I know scissoring isn't a thing but has anyone actually tried to scissor a dude? I'll do it for science! Imagine actually keeping this up for months? Oh my god.

93

Rocky - do I get bonus points if he, like the LW, is completely unaroused but I have sex with him anyway cause I'm that damn selfish? I feel like I do. Wish me luck! Or more accurately, pray for his testicles!

94

Ms No @86, this is my rule, yes. A couple of years ago (I'm quite proud of this), I managed to convince a 36-year-old man who had -never- given oral sex to do so, because there would be no intercourse until I'd had an orgasm (and he was terrible with his fingers). REVOLT, let this be an example for you!
In an established relationship, sometimes it's OK to mix things up by going straight to PIV. But not for someone whose job is to prove that they're someone I'd want to have sex with a second time. And this is also why you're less likely to get good sex from one-night stands. They don't need to convince you to come back for more, so a lot of them don't bother trying. Hmm, I wonder how the world would be different if girls/young women were discouraged from having casual sex not for morality reasons but for quality control reasons? Not "don't put out because he won't respect you afterwards," but "don't put out because he won't please you during."

95

Griz@77~ You couldn't piss me off if you tried, I love you too much! :-) I'll happily be the official peter meter amongst my other sundry duties.

96

I have experienced the bookend to people who appear to be decent but are selfish in bed: those who ARE super exciting, attentive, imaginative, get you off EASILY the first time, but - outside of bed - are callous or even cruel. Hmm. Which is worse?

In any case, REVOLT won't be able to ask for/demand what she needs until she's mapped her body on her own which, as I've often bemoaned, girls aren't generally given permission to do. So they dream of "fairy tale" sex. Which doesn't happen when they're sleeping with frogs!

97

@49. Emma. I agree with you. What will help this young woman to learn about her pleasure (with a partner) is not more casual sex with men who don't care about her coming, but sex who men who will make the effort to please her.

What I was aiming at with my comment is a state of society, and of relations between men and women, were ALL men having sex, sex anyhow, make an effort to gratify their lovers.

Many past conversations we've had may have been based on misunderstanding--so please take what I've said (and my agreement with you) as my position.

@96. Helenka. I agree that it would be good for REVOLT in whole-life terms to be experienced. Well ... it would be good for her to 'revolt' and be more demanding.

@48. Emma. So would you think that cucking for the LW is about confronting her insecurity that her lover is going to cheat on her--by fantasising about, by taking pleasure in, her lover actually going out and 'cheating' on her i.e.having sex with someone else?

The other sense (or another sense) in which she could understand her desire to be cucked as a rejection of intimacy is, she might suppose, that she couldn't be that closely attached to anyone if she allows him to sleep with another woman. I'd want to know what understanding she's come to of herself with her therapist before giving advice on whether she should have a go at incorporating this kink as an actual activity in her sex life.

98

Pythag, if MLK molested children, yes, he'd be a terrible person just like Gandhi was. That wouldn't change the fact that MLK's politics were good and Gandhi's were not, regardless. Of course I might have trouble believing the FBI since they wanted to kill him and told all sorts of lies about him. In Gandhi's case, this is all well known, confirmed by himself and his nieces. But regardless, Gandhi was a racist, a supporter of Apartheid in SA (just wanted Indians classed with the whites), romanticized about subsistence farming and nontechnical production that set aspects of the Indian economy off to a terrible start in the beginning, socially very conservative and antifeminist. In the good category, we have nonviolent resistance but he did not invent that, and besides he is only nonviolent if you don't consider the caste system - which he defended- to be violent. He was a nationalist opposed to British imperialism and that's good, but he wasn't the only one and worked against more liberating factions (Ambedkar, etc) because he was a religious fundamentalist. So no, I'm not simplistically dismissing him simply because he was sexually repressed, denied female sexuality and also molested children, he also had terrible politics. It's time for his myth to die.

But anyway, yes I know your statement was in jest, I just thought it was ironic that the example you chose confirms the trend- here is another selfish person with a very selfish sex life.

99

We all have dreams Harriet. It’s reality we gotta deal with.
Agree Fan, @94, A’s fun as the ’ol chase could be, I’m talking pre internet for one night stands, none of them were sexually satisfying physically. To me. One fanny/ pussy is as good as another to a penis haver.
I’m lucky I never got with a rapey man, they were all sweet and kind. Now days, sounds too dangerous, sure and steady wins the race.

100

@63. Donny. I think 'man-hating feminist' was a joke. But let's suppose she said, to her next prospective lover, 'I'm afraid I'm one of those man-hating feminists who insists on orgasm parity', well ... one would hope that her lover-to-be said, 'those are just the kind of man-hating feminists I like!'.

@73. no. Trained therapists must get to read something about hotwifing/hothusbanding, though? Are there any therapists here to tell us? I would be on the side of thinking that, yes, her cucking kink would be a good thing for the lw to feel she understands, before she goes out and tries to recreate the fantasy.

@89. rockyboy. I think the formula 'everyone is responsible for their own orgasm' 1) makes sex too much about people's orgasm (it could mean more or less to different individuals; and be easier or harder to achieve for different individuals), and 2) glosses over power differences, esp. between straight cismen and -women, that lie behind differences in the distribution of orgasms during sex. One of the reasons, this thought goes, for the orgasm gap is that it is societally harder for women to advocate for what they want.

101

@Harriet, it could go either way or some third, fourth way, etc. If the LW is really keen to understand herself and her kinks, I suppose a nice long chat with her therapist or a good friend might give her some insight, but I wonder why it matters at all. We could only speculate without info. I explained why it gets me off- at least as much as I can see into myself clearly which none of us can really do. And we know why it gets others off. As to the LW, we have no way of knowing. That's on her.

But as I said, I don't know why she should bother unless she just wants to understand herself. I was trying to address the concern she has- that she could be funneling these insecurities into some sort of behavior that becomes a habit, rewiring her brain she says. So that the more she practices it, the more she needs this to get off, like men who can only get off from a tight grip while jacking or any other habit. Could it become a real fetish, you know that she can't get off any other way. And my response is sort of, well maybe that could happen. But once you've already started going down that path of wondering how and why you do the things you do and dabbling in the thrills that get you off, you are already rewiring your brain- it's not like there is an option where you get to be ALL CLEAR, like if you pay some Scientologist enough they will wash you of your insecurities and disentangle them from your sexual pleasures, etc.

So it seems to me to just be clear eyed about what you are actually doing and feeling, both when you are being sexual and when you are just being in a relationship, and don't worry so much about the ways in which you get off so long as it's still hot and everyone is having fun. There's not a perfect shrink or a perfect lover that's going to sort it all out and set you straight and make you fuck properly like a normal person since none of those exist anyway.

Back in the real world, yes she needs to think about it when she's not feeling sexy and consider how she'd feel if he really were fucking others- basically figure out if it's a fantasy or if it's something she really does want to explore. And if they decide to give it a shot, then of course lots of communication and 'we'll see how it goes' and talks about boundaries etc then checking in later- but I think this is advice we'd give to anyone starting to open up a relationship, irrelevant to the reason. If she has a fear of intimacy or a fear of betrayal mingling in there in her sexuality seems not really relevant- they are both deep dark feelings that can be tantalizing to play with and both could include her partner fucking others (or her getting off on thinking about him doing so).