Savage Love Aug 28, 2019 at 4:00 am

Come the Revolution

Joe Newton



@99. Lava. It's probably true that a lot of the casual sex a straight young woman has is with men who don't care about her pleasure.

Sex education should normalise hot casual! Happy, mutual casual sex! (I'm not sure that it does, anywhere).

@94. Bi. Amazing--I find that almost impossible to imagine--a 36yo man who has never given oral sex....Apropos a previous comment, I imagined that Lava's School of Fan 'come the revolution' would be a school of Sapphism (or bisexuality), not of sexual assertiveness--but no doubt this was a misread -- ;)


Man hater in her mid twenties, she’s just learning the ropes. Can’t be blaming the boys, it’s an emotionally meaningless physical transaction, you are using each other LW1. That’s the nature of having sex with random men.
Obviously this is not the way for you to proceed in finding a beau, good men are out there, and better to find men thru a hobby say, a shared activity.
Attraction, you play coy, it heats up.. you get the picture?


@101. Emma. The LW said that, almost always, she had to fantasise about her bf fucking someone else in order for her to orgasm--as if this was a deficiency or abnormality, or necessarily indicated a rupture of intimacy. I don't think it is abnormal, or that it has to be a sign of shunning intimacy, in the way she seemed to believe.

I've had sex with het married couples (indeed, this was how I got into having sex with women) but don't know that the cuck impulse was a particularly strong motivation for either partner. The partners were always both present.


Yes Harriet. I think cucking by definition includes some aspect of humiliation. Whereas hotwifing (or hot husbanding as would apply here) is more about getting off your partner fucking others for various reasons that we are discussing. To me, the LW sounds like she's using the word "cucking" because it's a common word, but she's actually describing hot husbanding (or something for which there isn't a word since they aren't married). Likewise, there is the aspect of whether or not someone wants to witness it or just hear/know about it or some combo. All of this is different from a threesome of course.

So regarding the LW's insecurities or motivations- what makes her have this thrill- I think it would be good to figure out what she's getting off to (picturing him with others, seeing him with others, knowing how hot he is, dissociating herself from the situation, feeling humiliation, toying with betrayal, etc) in order to explore her kink- what would make it more fun, how to carry it out, etc. But I don't think this requires her to really psychoanalyze herself nor do I think she must worry about hardwiring her brain as there is no unwired normal option despite her anxiety that there should be.


Point of pedantry: we don't actually know that REVOLT has been having casual sex. All she says is that she's in her mid-20s and has had five partners in six years, one of whom she was in love with. Were the other four hookups or short-term relationships? She doesn't say. It is entirely possible that she handled things the old-fashioned way, made them wait until the fourth or fifth date, and still ended up with selfish lovers. Bad luck perhaps, or other commonalities of "type" which she should think about before choosing her next partner.

Harriet, I agree 100% with your reply to Rockyboy @100. A well-earned hunsky indeed! Not only are women not socialised to advocate for what they want, but they are shamed for having desires, and expect a "fairy tale" experience where men just know exactly what they want and deliver it. Hence my extended rants about last week's girlfriend who "wanted their first time to be like a fairy tale."

Harriet @102: Fear not, BDF's Lava School of Sexual Assertiveness will feature lots of woman-to-woman classroom instruction and group projects! ;-)


I am certain that REVOLT should simply start seeing 72 year old men like me who simply can’t get enough tongue all over, around, and through vulva (TAOAT) sex. GIOW would be replaced by WOW. Concluded by my favorite phrase “The pleasure was all ours.”


no @74 - yes, "satisfied" is a good term, or "pleased." If I'm feeling toppy I like to say "give my ass some attention." It's not goal oriented but it leads good places. Other people might substitute different body parts -- the idea is to name body parts where it's relatively easy to arouse you and relatively hard to irritate you.

no @75 was that aimed at me? I'm not thrilled by threesomes, and I don't much enjoy sex with women. So I think I'm not able to answer the question.


Honoured Fan, to be included in your training adventures. And you are right, one did jump to conclusions. They may not have been one night stands. However this young woman finds her bed companions, she needs to screen better.
Gotta be a set of questions one could ask which gages a man’s sensitivity to a woman’s pleasure. Have to be subtle ques, so they fly under the radar of the common bloke.
Maybe comrades, that’s an exercise we could do for nexts week’s class.


Yes, the denial of female pleasure has gone on since whenever. The clit being the only part of the human body put there just for pleasure.
‘Well, what about the other one then, how they gonna be conned into having babies, after all they do the hard yards here’
‘ oh, yes. Good point. A nice shiny button hidden amongst the hills and dales and forests, there. Just in front of the you know what.’
‘ Perfect’
How to teach young women to self pleasure the fuck out of themselves, because that way reliance on men is reduced.


One extra point LW1, coconut oil will stain your sheets, so put a towel down. Enjoy.


Daddy @110 FIrst things first - #NotAllLesbians. Second, no @71 is flat wrong - having a vagina DOES give gay ladies (hi Venn!) the advantage of knowing how vaginas "work". Just as gay men are better at cocksucking, so too are lesbians better at coaxing orgasms out of finicky vaginas (and vulvas, and clits). Or at least (based on a lifetime of performance reviews) THIS lesbian is...


@111 cont. not reduced to zero, because that’s not what a hetero woman wants. A sexually independent woman, one who takes care of her own needs as is required, can scan the horizon with less desperation.
What we don’t want is some group calling themsemselves men hating feminists.
I don’t blame young women for giving up.
The internet has taken the romance out of meeting men. I loved my free wheeling chasing the boys days. Some nice boys in there too.
How it is and one must work with the conditions at hand.


Mizz Liz - It wasn't a dig. I know a GaymRA between whom and Ms Cute I'd love to arrange a three-hour YouTube stream, because they both frequently say or write things that are about equally convincing and totally irreconcilable.

Ms Lava - Here's something on which we might agree - how pleasant it would be to see the first US Open meeting between Hr Federer and Sr Nadal. I think there have been six times one of them lost the round before they would have met - and Sr del Potro has prevented their meeting from both ends, in 2009 and 2017.


Daddy men are socialized to see getting laid and getting a date and wooing a woman as a prize, something inherent to masculinity. Meanwhile women are taught to keep their goods to themselves, that good fathers/brothers fight off their suitors, that they should keep their legs crossed. That we are all socialized with shame around genitalia or the dirtiness of sex does not change this. I agree with what you say btw about the biological differences- yes at the least, you can put your dick in something and thrust, half instinct/drive even, and most men will orgasm from it. But it's simplistic to pretend what we are taught has nothing to do with it. I think the biology comes first, but the socialization is there nonetheless. The whole stud/slut dynamic is there, as well as women-as-a-prize which also contributes to some women's passivity in bed, as if offering it up is all she's required to do since it's so desperately sought after in the first place, etc. Dumb to pretend socialization or gender roles have nothing to do with this, compounding the biological differences (that not all women are compelled from a young age to masturbate though it seems nearly universal in men regardless that both are taught it's naughty).


@115 Venn - You comment frequently on FeMRAs, and now you mention GaymRAs (Milo?) and I have to wonder - why are you so involved with, and interested in, and clearly such an expert on MRAs of any fashion? I pay attention to them because they hate my gender to such a disturbing degree that it behooves me to keep abreast of the irrational and vile disgust for women they feel so comfortable spreading freely and with apparent pride and gusto on the internet. But given the fact that ANY iteration of an MRA is based on a sophistic, bordering on the hysterical, hatred of my gender, and almost exclusively on the heterosexual members therein, I'm curious as to why you, as a proud - might I say self-righteous - gay man are paying any attention to that dank (but expanding) corner of the internet at all?

The only rational conclusion I can come up with is this - because you clearly find delight in any opportunity to trash and bash my gender, you actively seek out others on the internet who share your dim view of my half of humanity. For what its worth, the last time I read ANY feminist literature, was way back in the day when Gloria Steinem was the editor of Ms. Magazine.

To keep tabs on the growing universe of MRAs and MGTOWs and PUAs and Incels, and increasingly the iintersectionality of those groups with the alt-right, I read We Hunted the Mammoth a couple times a week. There's some especially vile stuff on there today. You should check it out, you'll no doubt enjoy it immensely!


@95 DonnyKlicious: The feeling is mutual--I love you too much, too! I crown thee Savage Love's Royal Peter Meter. Sending big hugs, positrons, VW beeps and major "Aack-oops". :)
@100: WA-HOOOO!!!! Congrats to Harriet_by_the_bulrushes on scoring this week's Big Hunsky! Bask in the radiant glory.


That sounds depressing JibeHo. Such base humanity sprouting all over, men who hate a whole gender and especially those of us who desire men. Other men, never them. Because they are super creeps ville.


Self defence group is looking for a Team
Leader, JibeHo, you interested.
Young girls need to be getting self defence classes. That will be on my agenda, Come the Revolution.


I suggest that REVOLT dates nerds. That way she can tell them that in order to gain entry to the magical pleasure cave, they must first make an acceptable tribute to Clitoris, who guards the entrance. Without paying tribute in the form of at least one orgasm, none may pass. :-)


Hunter, you think nerds aren't masculine? Who's stereotyping here? Besides, I wasn't the first to make this suggestion, that was DrJones @28. And the opposite of attraction isn't abhorrence. I'm sure there are lots of ultra masculine men out there who eagerly please their partners, and if masculinity is REVOLT's bag, I hope she finds them. I was merely making a playful suggestion (you added the word "only") that REVOLT might employ to remind her partners what's important to her, anatomically speaking, since they are overlooking this step in sex.


REVOLT - I'm sorry you've had such bad luck. What you describe has not been my experience at all, having encountered it only a few times over the course of decades. Most of my partners were close enough to your age to think it's not an age related issue. Even my lovers in high school were very into pleasing me. So I really think you've just had bad luck. If you think you tend to go for the same type of guy all the time (whatever type that is), maybe try branching out as an experiment. Really all I do is approach foreplay enthusiastically myself, communicate what I like and provide positive reinforcement when something feels good. I've almost always experienced enthusiastic reciprocation, beginning with the very first encounter.

LW2 - If you haven't already, perhaps you could start with having your partner share past experiences in detail while you have sex or get yourself off. This might get him used to the idea that you're turned on by the idea of him with others and at the same time might help you gauge whether you'd feel okay moving into the realm of doing this in real life. Agree with others this is more of a hothusband thing, not a cuckqueen thing, unless you desire humiliation.


Dadddy @125, if only the narrative could be slightly tweaked so that giving a woman an orgasm was seen as the prize. Then the whole process would seem a lot less adversarial!


No desire to get into another slanging match, Dadddy, so I'll just say that "bean counted" is a great pun.


Bi, I just want to put in a good word for the one-and-done crowd. I know you grade quality of sex in part by number of orgasms. But I’m very close to a woman who orgasms only once when she masturbates, and likewise during sex. That’s her thing and that’s okay, and we’re pretty accomplished at making it happen, sometimes spectacularly. If I were to insist on more, as I misguidedly did once or twice in our early days, she might try but would probably end up feeling not just frustrated by lack of success but also pressured and resentful, a very unsexy combination.

So just a friendly reminder that your needs and standards aren’t universal. And that’s okay.


I’ve never been with a nerd, Fan, are these science or computer people.
Talking older people sex is not going to help this young woman. Peak of her sexual life and all she can find are dud boys. May be her way of choosing may also be boys are getting worse at all this. Watching crappy porn and thinking it portrays real women. And the minor effort needed ‘oh look she will scream with such pleasure when I ram my rod into her..’
No fucking idea how to gently be with a woman. Which is what a clit needs, to get it going. Crash bang thump is not lovemaking.


One sign could be a man’s hands. I do check mens’ hands and fingers. If we’re talking proper seduction, my style, the fingers are the testing ground.


I’ve never felt Fan assumes her multi orgasmic sex is a universal thing, or that nocute assumes that either. They share, and as a woman I think it’s quite a feat.
You know for how long in human history clit having women have spoken of their joy about sex? The last five minutes and only in western countries and it’s looking like the repressors are riding in from all directions to damp that down.
Orgasm delight


BDF, Emma - no I wasn't suggesting some weird limitation to threesomes.. I was suggesting that her fantasy was not necessarily a threesome. Because the only words she uses are "ideal cuckquean scenario" to decide what she wants to do in real life. I assume this is related in some way to what is getting her off right now, thinking about him fucking another while she's having sex. But that doesn't mean that she's fantasizing about threesomes at all!

Yes it's a subtle point. But by how she writes the letter, it's possible that she could be completely turned off by threesomes. Something about her boyfriend having sex with others gets her off, but it's unclear how involved she wants to be or if she even wants him to have sex with someone else in reality.

I just get the sense that since we all like sharing our guys, we're projecting a lot here. That's why my advice is for her to collect a lot of ideas but feel no pressure to realize any, until she feels strongly positive about a scenario that she can describe in detail. She might be into more or less action between her man and real women. She might be into more or less involvement with the other women. And whatever she likes, it's ok, and it will probably help her relationship to discuss with bf once she has a good idea of what she wants. And the thorny areas there may be that he is repulsed by nonmonogamy, or that he will assume more license with others than she is truly comfortable with.. so maybe ask him what his preferences are too before very deeply discussing her desires!


"in order to gain entry to the magical pleasure cave, they must first make an acceptable tribute to Clitoris, who guards the entrance. Without paying tribute in the form of at least one orgasm, none may pass. :-)

Lol awesome one BiDanFan

Also, as far as learning to orgasm with a guy's body, I think that it helps to have a guy who will agree to let you explore his body completely unguided. Although men make fun of starfish, passive women, I think that it helps to figure out what you like about a guy's body whenever he's not doing anything at all that impedes the sensations you're creating using his body.

It worked for this single data point at least.


Lava @133, thank you. Late @130, friendly reminder, I'm bisexual, hello. I have sex with women. I have had sex with women who find it difficult to come, who can't come at all with a partner, who are one-and-dones, who come in five seconds and need a twenty-minute break afterwards. I don't know where you got the idea that I think I am like all women or that all women can and should be having multiple orgasms. I know I'm lucky. I am responding to ONE woman whose partners are not making the effort to get her to come and sharing what I have learned about how she might be able to get what she wants out of sex -- because at her age -I didn't know what I know now- -- and agreeing with those other commenters who said that "being satisfied with sex" means different things to different people. Yes, coming once is okay. I never said it wasn't. My point was that some men may think "she came, that must mean she's done and I can be selfish now," which will not universally be the case.

Philo @134, the threesome was JUST A SUGGESTION on how she could realise this fantasy in a way that her man would probably enjoy very much. If she would rather engage in dirty talk, that's fine too. If she would rather open the relationship on the condition that her partner share in detail all his exploits, that's fine too. If she doesn't need to do any of this, if she just needs to get to a place psychologically where she enjoys her fantasies guilt-free, also, fine.

Philo @135: Thank you! Whew, finally someone gets one of my points.


Dadddy @129: "You know, there are other options besides fighting and saying nothing." I look forward to your trying some of them.


One compliment I can pay Ms Fan is that of appreciating that she does not demand a magical mind meld. LW wants men to get without being told that her climax is their unassisted responsibility. Other women want the opposite end of the spectrum from male partners, sometimes again without their being told. I wonder how much Without Being Told comprises of Fairy Tale Expectations.


Oh, and very sorry to lose Ms Harper. I don't know that I'd say I identified all that much with Rhoda, but I did often feel surrounded by Marys.


Philo @135 third paragraph sounds heavenly to me.


Hunter @ 138
This is rich indeed. "Frigidity" is so Last Year in Marienbad.
(A 1961 French film, a true masterpiece when considering the medium a la carte- lines, cinematography, lighting, editing, acting, sets, etc.- yet the premise sucks big time when viewing it with today’s vision of relationships and gender equality. As I see it, the plot- assuming there is one, which is another great quality of this film- is all about a man attempting to convince a “frigid” woman they did have consensual sex a year earlier, even if she was shouting and “pretend protesting” at the process, and they should run away together.
Yet another fairy tale as far as I’m concerned.)


Has anyone seen or heard from sb53? I haven't read any comments from him lately, and am concerned. Hopefully all is well with sb and Miss N.


No Grizelda.. not for a while. He was on the daily thread a good few months back now.
My mother’s funeral was beautiful G, gentle and soothing after her last painful week of life. I think I’ve been doing my grieving over these last two years.. since she decided to push everyone away.


That’s how I found my orgasm during sex, Philo, rubbing my clit/oris against my lover’s belly. Nice soft belly flesh. Cowgirl position can be confronting for a woman, breasts flapping about. Recliner chair is much more lady like.


Thank you, Venn @139. Seems the male mind is only incapable of understanding me when it thinks for some reason it is personally being insulted. Hunter, do you not know what a smiley face emoji means? This woman is not getting what she wants from sex; I merely suggested a playful way to ask for it, one with which roleplaying games enthusiasts will be familiar. Hunter, why does this offend you so? From your description @122 you are not in need of such helpful hints, so I'm not sure why mine has made you so angry.

Lava @145, yes. Pre-intercourse is not the only time women can get their clits stimulated, during is a good time for that too. Either ride him and rub yourself against his body, as you've suggested (does leaning forward mean less flapping about, or are you women with breasts lucky enough to get the extra sensation of nipples rubbing against his chest?), or get into spooning position where fingers -- his or hers -- or a vibrator has easy access. I find that once I have had a pre-intercourse orgasm, it is much easier for me to come during, so win-win.

Lava @144, I'm glad you were able to send your mother home with a lovely service.


Also Lava @143, what do you mean by "recliner chair"? Do you mean literally having sex in a recliner chair or is this a position I don't know by that name?
Getting on top is also a great way to avoid the man coming before you do, since you can set the pace rather than him setting it to maximise his pleasure which may not coincide with yours.


@145 @LavaGirl See, I'd say boobs swinging about in cowgirl would more often be among the reasons to love cowgirl.


Bi I didn’t mean to sound reproachful or whatever, sorry for the poor wording. Your enthusiastic promotion of women’s orgasms, today and on many other days, and your specific advice for achieving same will only make the world a better place. But your general message of the more the better I thought might make some un-self-confident female readers wonder if they’re doing sex right, or make some inexperienced male readers wonder if their girlfriends or broken, or worry that they're shitty lovers or something unproductive. My comment was meant as more of a reassuring PSA for the un-self-confident. I just didn’t phrase it very well.


Late @149, thanks. Sure, I hope I wasn't giving the message "every woman can have unlimited orgasms, all she has to do is ask!" My impression of this LW (which may be wrong) is that she -can- have orgasms during sex, but her lovers are not even trying. It may be possible that she can't, or that one is her maximum, but she won't know until she gets a partner who's willing to try, to experiment with her. I am focusing on the typical woman who comes from clitoral stimulation rather than intercourse when advising her to seek a pre-PIV orgasm ("at least one" includes "one," if that is sufficient!). However, you're right that some women are pretty much literally done with sex after they come, and won't want to then lie back and think of England while their partners perform PIV. Women in this situation should insist that their lover gets them off -after- PIV, with his fingers or a vibrator. My general message isn't "the more, the better," it's "insist that he pleases you," which I think can be far more universally applied.


FutureCat @148, but doesn't that hurt? I mean, busty women wear bras to stop their boobs from bouncing about because that's uncomfortable, right? I'd think it would also be distracting. I can see -men- finding "heaving bosoms" an advantage of cowgirl, but not the people whose bosoms are doing the heaving.
"He can play with your boobs while you ride him" is an advantage of cowgirl, for me. Reckon that would solve the bounce problem, too! :-)


@151 @BiDanFan I can't speak for all busty women, only myself. For me, it's not uncomfortable AT ALL and the turn on for me is mostly related to the positive reaction from my partners. I do wear a very supportive bra for athletics and wouldn't even think of doing a single jumping jack without wearing one. Sex and athletics are very different things. I would assume it's the same for people with dicks and balls who don't want them swinging around during a nice jog but let loose in the bedroom.


As a male man who has sex, I would love to rise to the challenge of “insist that he pleases you”—assuming the challenge includes helpful instructions, and comes with a healthy dose of “...and have fun figuring out what pleases him, too.” Fully on board with this project.

Yes, the puns were deliberate.


A chair that reclines Fan, so the action happens at an angle. Woman on top, maybe not so easy for a tall woman, because one to find purchase with feet on the chair.
When I was younger futurecatlady, and my breasts smaller and my body slimmer..on a bed I could ride like a race horse jockey, close in. Not so easy as I got older and my breasts and other body parts got a big bigger.


Leaving whole words out now. has to find purchase....
Maybe it’s because my bigger breasts are post the Change, futurecatlady.. I don’t like the feeling of them jumping about. It hurts.


Advantage of chair cowgirl is one can stop, for a moment, and the man can meet up with nipples and breasts with his mouth, while the woman gets her breath. If she’s skilful she can keep the bottom action going while her top half stops for some nipple play. Not interested in having nipples bitten off.


@155 Lava - If it hurts, for sure, that's no fun. I'm also post change, FWIW, but I suppose it's different for everyone. Or maybe that will be the case for me someday, just not yet. I'm glad you found a great alternative that works really well for you. I'll have to try it!


FutureCat @152: Right, so basically you're doing an in-sex burlesque performance. Indeed, I can't imagine many men finding that "unladylike" in a bad way!

Late @153: The "and have fun" was the whole idea behind turning it into an adventurous quest. Agree entirely that everyone should be pleasing each other, and I hope this woman finds a way to finding partners who agree with that as well. (Noting that if these men are rushing to stick the P in the V, they're also missing out on the fun of giving her the chance to find out what [else] turns them on! So slowing down is a win for everyone.)


@158 @BiDanFan I agree there's a performative aspect, yes! A combination of natural sexual mechanics and performance.


Thanks Fan for your kind words about me mum. She was a force and being a Catholic I think she thought if she put herself thru enough purgatory on earth, God would cut her some slack.
It was tongue in check , bringing in Ladies. Would a Lady ever do cowgirl sex.
Head em off, move em on, Rawhide.


Lava, now you've got me interested in investing in a reclining chair. Never could get the hang of balance while attempting to rest weight on my feet, when I'm on top it's my knees I'm resting on. "Jockey position" does sound a good way to describe that. Cowgirl is perpendicular, with the attendant balance issues and sore thighs; jockey is the more comfortable way to ride one's stallion! :-)


Get a slender one Fan.. don’t want too much padding it can get in the way. And test you can
put your feet comfortably, usually a grove under the arm rest.
Talking about a Lady doing cowgirl reminds me of a story SA told us. How some girls/ ladies I guess, get up there and expect the men to do all the work. From underneath. I’d be throwing that cowgirl off.


We wanted to buy mum a new hand made recliner, because the one in her room at the home, her feet fell short. Oh no. She didn’t want that. I investigated anyway and one can design a chair to one’s specifications. So if the money is there..


Sorry, that’s all I got. I’m a one trick pony.
Tongue and fingers are the go, for a sure fire hit. Got to be things the men enjoy though, don’t want a boy/ man doing step one, two, three.
Maybe that’s a straight up question to ask these boys, LW1. Do you love touching pussy with your fingers and tongue. If the answer is no, then move along.


So--who's up for the coveted Double Whammy?

@144 LavaGirl: I have sb's email address. I'll email him.
Lava--sending you and yuor family and sb53 and his family big hugs, positrons, and VW beeps.


Lava @162, a slender chair or a slender man? Haha. Yes I remember an earlier discussion on cowgirl, that's where I learned that some were defining it as the woman placing her feet on the bed, which sounded more like pilates than sex. It was Sporty who said he liked this position because he gets to "watch dem titties bounce." I recall talk of women getting on top and expecting men to do the work -- that may be a chicken-vs-egg thing, both sides assuming it's the other person's preference. This has certainly happened to me and pissed me right off -- the reason I got on top was because you were fucking me too fast so STOP IT and let me run the fuck!!! This jockey had to put her horse in its place pretty quickly, indeed.

Sex chair does sound like a good thing. It would be handy to have some sort of a chair shaped like a number 8, with a narrow middle so that one could actually have one's feet on the floor while straddling one's partner. That sounds much easier for avoiding balance problems, knees locking up, thighs getting tired too soon. Perhaps with some extendable arms so that you could do feet-at-sides cowgirl if you wanted. And some grab rails for arms of differing lengths. Some friends just moved into a house that has hooks for a sex swing in the basement. Many intriguing possibilities there.


@165: "yuor"? Shit--there I go again, and BEFORE hitting the red wine!
@162 LavaGirl and @166 BiDanFan: A slender sexy chair? Sounds good to me!


Griz is setting another lucky number up for someone.
And the winner of this week's Double Whammy IS.............


The sex chair sounds fun. But how many modifications to design can you really put in one chair? Perhaps it must remain a fantasy.


C. Muse:

They're not a fantasy, but definitely a luxury. I remember seeing pictures and ads for such items. Naturally, being associated with sex and their versatile uses made them very expensive. [It's like BDSM gear. You can pick up items in hardware/equine, etc. stores, or you can pay a premium at the sex shops.]


While I'm in a talkative mood, I wanted to address this whole orgasmic "bean counter" fear-mongering, especially when we're addressing a LW who's never had an orgasm with another human being.

I've never cared for the stridency of the "She Comes First" proponents because that places an even heavier burden on HER. Instead, when she's auditioning future partners, she can say she wants "pleasure" for xx number of minutes (which is also a good way to approach learning how to have an orgasm on your own - set aside time for pleasure; when it's over, you do something else until the next day when it's xx minutes plus 10).

When people automatically accept the more male-defined goal (orgasm), then they forget that there were pleasure spots along the journey.


Lava@144, my condolences. I'm sure your mum knew that you loved her and that her family was a great comfort at the end, withdrawal may have been her gift. She'll live forever in everyone she touched. I'm glad that you had fun honoring her memory.


Sounds like REVOLT should hook up with the Ultimate Package Deal (August 20, 2019)


Guys (a lot of guys) really want to get to P-in-V. If REVOLT is being unclear about whether that's going to happen, the guys may push harder for it and want to move directly to it. As #20 Sarah points out, early in dating or bedding, the guys are not sure what's going to happen. I think that contributes to them pushing straight to P-in-V. I think that if they have confidence that P-in-V will happen, they'll be more willing to do more foreplay, oral, etc.


@169: WA-HOOOOO!!!! Major congratulations to CalliopeMuse for scoring our Savage Love Double Whammy: Lucky @69 plus Big Hunsky ((@69 + @100 = @169) Award! Savor your envied decadence and bask in the honors.


Thanks Philo. People have their own path, and as painful as they were, for her and others, my mother’s last steps were consistent with many before. I honour her for giving me life and I am relieved she is out of pain.


There are no guarantees OnceAndFuture @174.
A woman doesn’t promise upfront that PiV will happen, nor does a man. Both can stop the sex at any time for any reason.


Anyone interested in hitting the Two Hunsky this week? LavaGirl?


MissWrite @173, good call! :-D

Once @174, after making the point that REVOLT may be "making" the guys wait for sex, it occurred to me that indeed, having had to wait a while, they don't want to have to wait another 15 minutes while they get her warmed up. Ironically, making sex good for her means you'll get much more sex with her in future, I'm not sure why men don't see this.


"I think that if they have confidence that P-in-V will happen, they'll be more willing to do more foreplay, oral, etc."
Although they shouldn't have confidence that sex will happen unless the woman is horny too, and foreplay is a quick way to do this.. Unless you are talking about a hooker then yeah you should get what you pay for I guess???

I've been thinking lately, it seems like guys don't really have a great concept of sexual generosity. Maybe every guy will claim to be sexually generous, it seems very common. But it seems to be tied up more with the concept of having a lot of sex, but not tied so closely to the concept of being ultra responsive to a woman's pleasure and pain like a woman may reasonably interpret. Because the same guys who claimed to be sexually generous, may also later fizzle out, drop the ball or even hurt. I mean, it's no guarantee they have curiosity to explore her body rather than fall into a rut, or the patience to keep doing things which are producing good responses until his partner is satisfied, or sometimes even the restraint to stop doing the things that produce a bad response. Yet they have claimed to be sexually generous. And there are some similar responses between intense pleasure and intense pain that can confuse things, sometimes pleasure and pain is not so obvious, but that doesn't really explain much of the discrepancy, guys will say "you should be turned on" or "that shouldn't hurt" like they are uncaring rather than ignorant. After they say they are sexually generous.

REVOLT - It's a minefield. Rest when you need to, you'll find some good eggs. Good luck.


Ms Lava - I'm glad you found consolation in the funeral.

Not the best weekend for Australian tennis, though at least Mr de Minaur is progressing. You may get a little more consolation if Ms Osaka doesn't defend, which will put Ms Barty back at #1. She seemed to be playing much better in the second set yesterday, being much less pushed back, but couldn't land a winner on break point and Ms Wang gave her almost nothing. It was nice to see a Wang match for the first time (she's been in the top twenty for months but hadn't done much in majors); her shots have good penetration and her error count is low with an occasional Radwanska-like crouch, though I suspect Ms Williams will overpower her.

As for Mr Kyrgios, his loss to Mr Rublev seemed highly characteristic of him. At times, he seemed to be toying with his opponent, but he just never seemed to be holding his concentration long enough at key moments. The first set got to the tiebreak with blitzing speed; Mr K seemed to have the edge after the change of ends, but he was too far behind. Then he just inexplicably went off the boil and blew a 4-0 lead in the second tiebreak, tanked the only break in the match early in the third set, and then seemed uncertain whether he really wanted to put everything into an effort to catch up. Mr R seemed almost a male version of Ms Sharapova; it was pleasant to see the win going to the player who clearly wanted it so much.

Other than that, it was nice to see that the Svitolina-Monfils coupling has brought good to both of them, while the Vekic-Wawrinka duo also thrives.


@174 OnceAndFuture I'm only one person, but FWIW, I have never once encountered a guy who showed disinterest in performing oral the first time we had PIV sex but then suddenly became interested in it at some point in the future. My experience has been the vast majority of guys I've been with have been into it, and all of those guys were into it from the first time we had PIV sex.


Oral sex to excite the female of a species is not restricted to humans! One such example is certain species of molly fish in Mexico.

The males grow a mustache-like structure whose sole purpose (in addition to the females finding it visually appealing) is likely to stimulate a female's genitals to get her in the mood prior to mating (these fish have internal fertilization and the females give live birth). The behavior is known as "nipping." This structure has evolved solely due to female mate choice -- a strong driver of sexual selection.

So the next time you give/are given oral sex, spare a thought to the male mollies working hard on their females in the freshwater streams and lakes of Mexico.


The word foreplay has got to go. It’s all sex. Soon as the kissing and fondling, when he touches my pleasure palace thru my knickers and I touch his thru his pants. Sex has begun.



Whoa. thanks for that.
Now I need a cigarette...


As a penis haver spending most of my sex life with women it is my observation that oral sex, especially cunnilingus, carry their own era and geo-social backgrounds.
My first attempt was performed on someone who wasn’t very much into guiding me for whatever reasons. When asked afterwards what she liked the answer was “anything,” which in British English, at lest back then, meant” everything” and I was left fairly clueless. She didn’t attempt to reciprocate and that was fine back then.
Next was a pleasantly surprising performer who didn’t want anything in return. I interpreted that as being shy and reluctant and low self-esteem and plotted to initiate gently during early morning hours when I was usually up first, yet too hesitant and the plan never materialized.

Later in life I’ve noticed something I’ve said here before and will do so once again: feminism isn’t only about helping women figuring out what they want, but also empowering many of them to communicate the information thus further helping themselves and many others in the process.

I’ve also mentioned that real/well acted lesbian porn when there’s at least an attempt to have a plot and the one on one with and without clothes takes 30 minutes or longer and the oooh ahhh yes baby sound fairly convincing and close ups give you plenty clues have increased my appetite, inspiration and hopefully also skill level.


@Daddy/BDF- She's saying "orgasm" but you can change her words to "mutual pleasure" and have a more inclusive result since yes, there are many ways to receive pleasure from sex than just orgasm and not all women will center an orgasm, etc. But I think it's a misunderstanding of the general point, witty puns aside, to focus on the number of orgasms- the point is seeing "the prize" if there must be one as being mutual pleasure- a woman who desires to do this or that with a man who likewise desires to do this or that.

What to do about the fact that men are going to have a biological imperative to fuck regardless of whether or not the woman is having fun? Well I don't disagree with Daddy's interpretation and think it's probably accurate though has changed throughout time/culture in different manifestations (which is what I was talking about regarding socialization) and really I think men should talk more about how to deal with that. But past solutions have involved disregarding the woman's pleasure (or desire, consent) altogether which is wrong headed, and any attempts to dismiss it by pointing to BIOLOGICAL DRIVES is likewise fucked up- we dismiss rape and murder and all sorts of things, there is no reason civilized people cannot likewise dismiss sexual selfishness.

I think we can go a long way with focusing on more mutual pleasure and reducing shame, better education, some of what CMD is talking about too @187- very helpful stuff and these are the sorts of narratives I think we can change, biology aside. But also I agree it's utopian to pretend that even if all straight men became conscientious skilled lovers and all women were empowered to talk about what they want (and have the knowledge of it) that there would be as many women available to get down as there are men seeking it. I think this would improve things rather a lot- there's a reason myths of guys who get laid easily are a thing from Casanova to Leonard Cohen, neither of which are famously good looking. Nonetheless I just think that incongruity is baked into heterosexuality to a certain extent. And that's why I keep focusing on things like socialization - seems to be the solutions will have to come from more liberation from gender roles and heteronormativity- so casual sex can be safer and freer and more available and less threatening so that people can seek it easier even if it's with a smaller proportion of people. Like this is one of the MRA arguments for one man having multiple partners but not vice versa- a bunch of bullshit. If you accept that most men would prefer more sex than most women (which I think is true) you are still denying the existence of very large minorities. Wouldn't it be better to destroy the heteronormativity as the default in the first place and then those large minorities of women who do want more and more casual sex could more easily get it on with those small majorities of men who want to meet them without the trappings of all the other shit that comes along with it? It would also go a long way to destroy the narrative of it being a special prize when it's more widely available- all of this I do think is actually happening before our eyes, we just have trouble seeing it because we are living in these times. But look at attitudes from our grandparents and then look at kids now.

What to do about the lonely folks (male and female) who just can't get laid? I don't know- but we have to start with the assumption that it can't cause someone else to sacrifice themselves...

And here I get controversial b/c I think a lot of men might find it pleasant to fuck each other a bit more at various phases in their lives if there were not such taboos or hangups about gender involved. Not to claim that plenty of people aren't firmly gay or straight- I know a lot of them are including myself. But if you look at history and cultures around the world, the middle ground is much bigger when there's a cultural acceptance of it, as is happening more and more now, especially among the younger generations. Like, these same incels won't get togehter and blow each other- feel insulted even by the suggestion- but they'll still desire a woman to blow them regardless of how she feels about it. Seems like they should get together and work on their needs with each other.

In short, while the biological question is legit IMO, it's no excuse for claiming socializaiton does not matter nor does it excuse solving the biological problem with selfishness on the part of male sexual desire.


Good idea CMD, Lesbian porn.
I was having trouble re the Law aspects, thinking how Fan and I could set up our school to teach young men the skills of fingers and tongues.
Sexual pleasure has been one of feminism’s goals CMD. Few others have been lost to the chewable culture. Sometimes I think a rewind to the fifties would not be such a bad idea, in terms of family stress. One wage families.
Feminism has failed, because more is expected of women, especially women who have children.
Interesting Muse. I love how you throw in stories from the non human creatures.


@183 CalliopeMuse: Thank you for the info on highly sexually active molly fish in Mexico.
Don't forget about bonobos. With this species of pygmy chimpanzee, orgies are part of the daily routine. Plenty of non-humans out there in the animal kingdom that really do get it on.

Getting closer to that Double Hunsky......


Lava 177 -- Yes people can change their minds. The question is, what do they have in mind initially. Many people are very bad at talking about sex, so the guy may be (often is) hoping to "get laid," while the woman may have in mind some kissing and cuddling. If the guy doesn't know, I think he is likely to push to P-in-V. After some experience together, the guy should gain an understanding of what to expect, and I think in that circumstance, the guy is likely to become less pushy. Of course, using words to talk about expectations could also clear up the uncertainty.


Philo @180, I was confused by this claim as well. It doesn't make sense logically to me. I think Once is claiming that, once foreplay (making out) starts, he may fear she will stop at some point so he wants to push to the PIV (so he can have an orgasm) before she has a chance to change her mind? Once, is that what you mean? That sounds a bit rapey to me, in addition to being short-sighted. The desire to get to PIV as quickly as possible is common IME but not universal. One test may be dirty talk; if his dirty talk is "I want to kiss you all over," proceed! If it's "I want to come inside you," reject!

I take on board the criticism that I've been focusing solely on the trope of "he should give her an orgasm before penetrating her." That's because the particular letter in question complains that men aren't giving her orgasms. But she also complains that they aren't even getting her warmed up before penetrating her, which is a related but separate issue. Not getting her off is bad; not getting her wet is worse. And getting her wet may be sufficient for her to enjoy the sex (though probably for different values of "her" than this LW who states she wants to come during sex). So, apologies for my myopic posts on this topic.

Hunter @184, it's easy for those women to steer an eager face away from there, or use their words and say they're not into it. The existence of this minority of women is not an excuse to not offer oral.

Lava @185, I agree completely. As I've explained to my straight guy, "foreplay" is what happens before genital contact to get me turned on, "sex" is what is happening as soon as the genitalia get involved in any way.

Dadddy @190, yes and no. If you ask someone to clean the kitchen you should be able to expect that, at minimum, there won't be a pile of dirty dishes when you get back. Sure, no one should expect their partner to read their mind. But it should also be common enough knowledge that Women Need Foreplay To Enjoy Sex that guys can't claim "well, she never asked!" as an excuse for being lazy and selfish. The -type- of foreplay needs to be communicated; the need for it should not. (And, just saying, sometimes -he- just wants her to take -him- as -she- sees fit. But agree, sometimes there is just natural compatibility that doesn't need to be communicated in words.)


Remember Fan, the word foreplay is now banned.
Of course some bodies gel, both knowing how to give and receive pleasure and the self drops away. Those people don’t write asking Dan for help.
It’s the giving herself permission to find her own pleasure/ orgasm which is probably holding LW1 back.
This is where centuries of denying women a right to self pleasuring needs to be smashed thru. How though? Do we talk to our girls from a young age about this pleasure we all have at our fingertips.
Do we tell them it’s ok to have sexy pictures in their minds while touching themselves, with fingers or a device.
Just gotta do it LW1, and each time you enjoy the experience your sexual self confidence will increase.


I’ll be buying The Vagina book Dan mentioned. And I’ll have it ready to give my grand daughter for her 12th or 13th bday, I’ll check with her mother/ my daughter, first.
She turns 10 tomorrow and is bursting into bloom. Sassy girl too.


Lava, I love the idea of a grandmother passing pleasure tips across the generations. Perhaps a vibrator or Womanizer for her 15th birthday? I have a niece that I could do the same for! Happy birthday to your granddaughter.


Mr Ddy - No need to apologize, but you're on a completely different track. Yours is a case where neither party has to know or deduce anything.

Mizz Liz - Could you find a way to confine that to the straight men so situated helping each other? Otherwise, we get situations such as that of the LW who was hard up and being given a helping mouth by his gay friend, where most of the commentariat expected the arrangement to continue after either or both of them found a romantic partner and perhaps even expand into MMFs if the future woman were interested without even bothering to think that the gay friend probably wouldn't want to be watched or joined (even though LW's follow-up clearly invited the inference that GyF viewed the arrangement as situational and temporary).

Ms Lava - Congratulations on Ms Barty's return to #1 next week. You should have a Swiss roll today in honour of Ms Bencic's win over Ms Osaka.


Lava @ 189
I don’t think feminism failed. It may have created new challenges and yes, there are set backs, but those constant adjustments and modifications are common to most if not all social changes.

I truly wonder what that 50’s families longing is all about. Yes, things were certainly more defined, but was it benefiting individuals and society? I always thought the 60’s unrest was fueled in part as a reaction to those restrictions.

Your school should offer fingering and other classes for boys, no doubt.
I have already approached the head of school and secured the janitorial position at the girls’ section, proper attire and all. We also discussed my proposed lingerie classes as well as being a prop for all beginners and advanced classes associated with the Penis Play curriculum.


@Venn I said the incels should fuck each other. I'm not aware of a phenomenon of gay incels. Unless you mean the widening range of sexuality which yes includes plenty of bi men fucking gay men, sometimes at various phases in their lives and the other letter would be a pretty good example of that, a win win IMO. You can't apply the point of view of commenters now to such a future since I began that whole thing with the premise that the current heteronormative marriage expectation has outlived it's usefulness and is dying out- and in such a future in which those expectations were not there in the first place (for neither men nor women) you would not have the same conflict to respond to. I'm sure there would be a different set of conflicts, but not that one.


Also I was not disapproving of that LW's arrangement and also not one who though it was necessarily cheating as he was not in a sexual relationship with the wife. But it is a betrayal nonetheless- of the life they have created together and their trust, it could easily blow up in all four of their faces and their families. But it's not the sexual relationships that are the problem here (seems a good solution for these two buddies to fuck, real intimacy and also sexual release while maintaining families and social relationships that work for other aspects of their lives)- the problem is trying to stuff this into a heteronormative box and pretend it fits, the lying required to maintain that illusion which, if revealed (and these things often are) will destroy those family and social relationships they are trying to maintain in the first place. Seems to me you have two choices- to deny the sexuality and just be celibate or to beat back against the expectation that our lives would fit into that box in the first place. So you can't evaluate his current actions in a fantasy world in which these norms are already broken open- it's not fair to just throw the wife under the bus and carry on with actions that will have consequences to her unawares. But likewise you can't evaluate a future situation by the current standard and make claims about what the commentariat would say about it. If we were all more realistic about our expectations around family and sexuality over the decades, we'd have a different default in the first place.


@CMD janitors in lingerie is probably a thing.

Humans need something to belong to. We are several generations into having nothing right now- there isn't a home town or an extended family to be from anymore for most people. It tends to last about three generations after industrial capitalism hits a country. Then you just have individuals moving for jobs, having kids who themselves move away for jobs, shifting relationships, etc.

I think the nostalgia for 50s nuclear families is a longing for a place to belong. Most people will have a very hard time going out and just carving their own path in the world disconnected from anything. It's also why there is a rise in fundamentalism and in nihilism, belief in conspiracy theory, etc. People need some way to make meaning of things, something to blame, something to join. Another mass shooting in Texas, we are up to three in how many weeks?

What will we create in response? How do we make a world in which people can be a part of something without making it oppressive? I don't fucking know, but the 50s nuclear family is not it. Joining ISIS or the Proud Boys or a religious cult is not it.

60s unrest, imo, came out of wealth- you had generations of socially mobile working class people who had the money/time to think about things and respond for the first time ever, plus the freedom of birth control plus convergence of several movements against structural injustices- civil rights, labor, women, lgbt, the war, etc. The important thing here is that all of those movements had something to react against- there was a norm / canon that could be protested. Like segregation, Jim Crow, illegality of certain sex acts or birth control, property rights, a clearly seen war requiring the mobilization of lots of Americans, etc etc. And most people had a basically shared norm, that het monogamous default marriage- whether or not it worked for most individuals, it was the standard in a way it's not anymore. So you get this convergence once there is wealth and transportation and media for all these people to take the time to talk to one another. That's all gone now because everything is so diffuse. Schools & neighborhoods are technically desegregated, women technically have access to contraception, lgbt people technically have legal protections, we aren't shipping off huge numbers of American GIs despite our war making being bloodier and more widespread now than it was then, there is no standard that people can point to and say "hey let's fix THAT" so no convergence- there's no king to point to and say "let's cut off his head". So people get nostalgic for times that made sense and create conspiracy theories- "if we can just storm Area 51 / impeach the president / get ahold of the pee tape / reveal the true identity of JFK Jr / infiltrate bohemian grove / reveal the cabal of global pedophile jewish communists funded by soros running the world etc etc- if we can just do these things, life will get back to normal".


@191 auntie grizelda I am very aware of bonobos (Pan paniscus) and their sexual adventures. I just thought the Mexican molly (Poecilia sphenops) was a lesser-known example. As well as the fact that they have regular sexual pairings of every number, sex, age, and relatedness combination, I find fascinating that bonobos have replaced the violence (so, so much violence, you have no idea -- infanticide, too) that chimpanzees use to establish dominance and settle conflicts with the practice of diffusing conflicts and disputes by fucking each other instead of fighting. Unlike in chimpanzees and many other mammal species (and, unfortunately, humans), infanticide by males has never been recorded in bonobos. Incest and adult-juvenile pairings aside, I think humanity would be far healthier socially if we decided to take after our non-chimpanzee cousins and resolve conflicts with sex rather than violence. Instead of fighting your enemy, what if you could just have sex with them and everything would be cool afterward? Make love not war, yes?


Chimpanzee (Pan troglodytes)


EL @ 201
The proper cleaning attire I was referring to is a maid outfit. The lingerie classes are totally different and will offer plenty of modeling and hands on opportunities.

As for families changing- your description was quite accurate, and it’s very possible that this is what Lava was talking about.
In the US it was always the case since the early days, as people came here from all over the world, leaving something behind for whatever reasons. The so-called free economy was also here from the start, another reason to shift workers around, not to mention kids going to college on the other side of the continent and often settle away from their parents and other relatives.

It is no wonder that much of Europe is now clinging to an ethnically cohesive past, just as some in the US are desperate to restore the rule of white men.

I recently watched a documentary about the Baader-Meinhoff group, young West German lefties turned violent in the early 1970’s after deciding all other means have failed.
I’m far from condoning their violent approach nor their association with other murderous groups of those days. And yet the issues they brought up, so eloquently articulated by the charismatic Ulrike Meinhoff, warned about further declining workers’ rights and media outlets controlled by few wealthy people.
Unfortunately, they were right in this regard. (And for the record, once again, I don’t think their violent approached would have changed any of it. If anything, it only contributed to governments weary of any kind of dissent and determined to nip it in the bud.)


CMD I can find "In Love With Terror" and "The Baader-Meinhoff Complex". Was one of those it?


@200: WA-HOO!!!! Congratulations to EmmaLiz for scoring this SL's Big Two Hunsky Award! Savor the vast riches and bask in the glory. :)


@202 CalliopeMuse: Oops---did I get that wrong? Are bonobos among primates, but NOT actually a species of chimpanzee? Make love not war. I agree. So beautiful. This reminds me of Jack Nicholson in his Oscar winning Best Actor (1975) role of rebellious Randall Patrick McMurphy, in One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest. Dr. Spivey (played by real life Oregon State Hospital Administrator, Dean Brooks) is reviewing McMurphy's case for his admittance into the state mental institution, and believes McMurphy is faking insanity to get out of work detail while in prison.
Dr. Spivey: It says here that they think you're when unauthorized.....why do you suppose they think that?
McMurphy: I think it's because I fight and fuck too much.
Dr. Spivey: In the penitentiary?


EmmaLiz @201, you left out the War/s. You left out how after WW2, after the horrors of Nazism, the west went super conservative.
As I said above it’s the economic situation of the 50s which were easier in many ways. Families could live on one wage could buy a house on one wage. I was a child in the fifties, and I remember families were stable or pretended to be.
Of course it was repressive for queer people for black people. Women expected to do all child rearing and domestic duties, driving them a little crazy. The sixties erupted because of the baby boomers after the war, there were so many of us. And yes we had economic security. Jobs aplenty etc.


EL @ 206
A German Youth

Apparently much of what happened in the late 60's on the West German left scene was documented by an elite film school students who shot demonstrations, meetings, and other events. The inclusion of this footage along with some very creative political shorts they made gives it an authentic point of view, regardless of one's position.
Once the violence starts the film relies mostly if not exclusively on tv footage, recorded messages, court hearings, and the like.

Didn't know about the Baader-Meinhoff complex, and the 10-year old review By Christopher Hitchens' is exactly what one would expect from him.

Fassbinder made some films about them back then. In one of them then chancellor Helmut Schmidt's face is superimposed with that of Hitler's at the very end. Maybe Ricardo knows the name...

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