The other thing to say to LEASH, of course, who's a young guy, is 'don't be ashamed if your collar-wearing thing is a fetish'! Don't live in fear of your fetish, don't not live your life! Find a kink community where you can be who you are sexually.
Do I recall correctly that it's Dan's take that it's OK to wait to roll out an important kink until one has demonstrated a couple times that one can do vanilla?
Lava and others:
I probably erred by using the word “deal” and “negotiations” and should have used “understanding,” “compassion,” and “accommodation” instead.
“Can’t see what the problem is, put your cards on the table early in the connection.”
“Why hide these things.”
The problem is that he did that and there was laughter.
“If he knows women in the past reacted that way, why didn’t he change his style”
This is why he’s asking Dan what he should do now.
“His behaviour doesn’t make sense to me.’
Because you didn’t grow up with a shameful secret of some sort and wondered if it could ever be incorporated in a relationship.
“A dealbreaker for me is a man who doesn’t love licking pussy, and one with hair around it.”
So you communicate it ahead of time, he tells you he has some needs of his own and will be delighted to accommodate you and does a fantastic job. He had also proven earlier in the relationship to be a nice, considerate person. So after he gets you off orally three times in the span of the next 38 minutes or so he curls around you and asks if it would be ok…
“why not look for others who clearly state up front they love the idea of a man on a leash sitting at their feet.”
Because those “others” on specific kink sites usually have lots of other things associated with it that he may not be comfortable with. Beyond compatibility, the competition is fairly fierce among sub men looking for dom women of any kind, and he doesn’t feel like he belongs in the D/s scene.
EP was right to add that a mild kink may grow. I agree with her assessment but wouldn’t take it as an inevitable, definitive rule which seems to have scared some of us.
CMD @111, gold star.
Only thing I would add to @111 is that while mild kinks may grow, agreeing to LEASH's current ask would not obligate any willing partners to also accommodate future, related or unrelated, requests. So if the current or a future Ms LEASH fears, well, I don't have a problem keeping him on a leash but what if he then wants me to call him Fido and smack him with a newspaper?, the answer is of course that she can set those limits as she sees fit. She can also give it a try and decide it's really, really not for her, and then he can decide whether to stay or go. Another reason it would be good to disclose and negotiate this before either of them is too invested in the relationship.
CMDwannabe @100 - just noting that I didn't say all kinks would take over someone's life. I said that self-awareness is important.
Living in denial is a poor strategy for long-term happiness.
"Where does one start as a total novice?" -- he's not a total novice. He knows this is important enough to him that he hasn't dropped the idea after getting a bad response three times from vanilla girlfriends.
Maybe he should try fishing in the kinky pool, and see how that goes.
Or he could spend years developing trust, building that "trusted, loving" partnership you mention, and then try revealing a secret desire. But he has to understand that some of the trust will be shaken by the fact of his having kept his kink secret.
I never suggested years of oppression, quite the contrary. All I’m saying is that preferences like LEASH, and considering his vulnerable history, could be brought up after intimacy has been established, i.e. after they start fucking and it seems to go pretty well. I don’t think this requires a first date disclosure, probably also not before clothes fall on the floor for the first time.
He should be looking into the kink community, yet shouldn’t feel obligated to go that route if that entails too much for him, at least at this point.
Other than that, we probably agree on most if not all other issues related to LEASH.
True CMD, I haven’t hidden a part of me out of shame, or confusion. Now though there are groups he can talk with, others who are like him with similar kinks, and gain confidence that way. He is not alone is what I’m saying.
You say he might not want to join the kink communities because he doesn’t feel comfortable with some other aspects and there is competition for Dom women. How about his gfs not feeling comfortable with his kink and what, he should trick someone into being a Dom. I don’t see his comfort is any more important than his partners.
Their laughter might indicate lack of understanding and care it also indicates dis interest. This way for him hasn’t worked.
No. It’s unfair to get emotionally and physical close to someone then just spring it that you like to be submissive and sit with a leash and collar on. This is not comparable to giving a woman a few orgasms and it’s disingenious of you to suggest it is.
Kinks and kinksters are out and proud and like anyone looking for suitable companions, lying or not disclosing early on about certain parts of themselves is trickery.
Where do you draw the line as to what needs to be disclosed and when? Medical condition, childhood trauma, family genetics, diet preferences or needs, etc.
Here we have what seems like a relatively easy thing to accommodate, at least as presented in the letter. Is the relation to sexuality so much scarier?
LEASH didn’t impose his behavior on anyone, he didn’t trick or fooled anyone to marry him or try it while they were intoxicated. For all we know he asked in advance . The sex I talked about was given as an example of how people can accommodate each other, not as a bribe or you owe me now.
We don’t know anything about their geography, if there even is a suitable kink scene. Just because something is mentioned on the internet doesn’t necessarily make it readily available to anyone anywhere
CMDwannabe @116 - yes, I think we're basically in agreement. If he enjoys vanilla sex, I think it's fine to keep the "spice" private for a while while they figure out other aspects of compatibility.
But I would say that before saying "I love you," one should tell one's partner about kink preferences, desire to have children (or not), previous marriages or arrests, major health issues, etc.
I don’t know where you would draw the line CMD. I could give you my list, and in there would be kinks disclosed before sex. The rest of my list doesn’t concern this letter.
I’d be fine with a bit of collar and leash play in the bedroom, jewel encrusted collar, smart leash. I have my small whip. Long as it was specific and part of other D/s play. Where he also was D.
This LW sounds submissive in a broader sense than he is letting on. The tone of his letter is sort of hang dog. It’s not just about a specific behaviour.. it’s who he is thru out. By disclosing his kink, like he could now with the woman who asked him if he had one, he could explore for himself as well as describe to others, what it is he’s looking for.
As he presents himself he’d be too passive for me, and I’d pass. And I’d rather do that sooner than later.
CMD, accomodating someone feels like coercion to me. Much better if the kinkster presents the kink in such a way that the partner is engaged. And if they are not, even with a clear telling, then no harm done. If he is confident that his kink is ok because it is part of him, then incompatibility is not anyone’s fault. If he presents his kink with a little flair and playfulness, he’s confident. If they laugh still. That’s on them.
As Fan pointed out, a kink is not a fetish. A fetish also, more so, needs to be disclosed up front. A kink is more flexible, or is it?
If shame still hovers around the kink, then that needs to be dealt with. Thrown off. Be who you are type statement. Then it can come from a more playful place.
Grant you, LEASH seems a mild kink as stated. There is lots of play material here, if he stops with the poor me and thinks about it. Make it an attractive addition, rather than a chore.
Dadddy @113: "Illegal" -- sounds like that could be public sex to me. Or, on a darker note, paedophilia...
"Trick," Lava @117? Where is the trickery? You are letting your visceral negative reaction colour your comments on LEASH's dilemma. You would balk if a partner of a few months' duration asked this. Not all women would. This woman has asked about his kinks, so it's likelier that she'd be willing to accommodate them (otherwise, why ask?). CMD is right that Fetlife is full of people who are far kinkier than LEASH. Looking specifically for a Dominant woman may lead to a situation where the roles are reversed -- all he wants is to be lovingly leashed, but she wants to tie him up and whip him. What LEASH wants is not a Dominant woman per se, but an open minded one, and it's not impossible for him to find one using the strategy CMD and others have suggested. As Harriet @108 says, he doesn't have to "spring it." SHE HAS ASKED. Now all he has to do is answer. "Kinks and kinksters are out and proud" -- wow. No, actually, most of them are not. Many people, yes, even in 2019, have shame underlying their kink -- some for good reason, like partners laughing at them. You have zero empathy for this man. No one is saying he shouldn't disclose early so I don't know where all this pushback is coming from.
Lava @120: "I’d be fine with a bit of collar and leash play in the bedroom, jewel encrusted collar, smart leash. I have my small whip. Long as it was specific and part of other D/s play. Where he also was D." Jaw drop. Isn't this what CMD, EricaP and I and many others have been talking about? Your partner says to you that he would like to be leashed. You say, that sounds fine but I would also like you to dominate me sometimes. He's happy that you've agreed to be GGG for him, so he agrees to be GGG for you. This is exactly the scenario we have all been saying can happen and now you agree!? Yes, he could make it an attractive addition, by dressing up in something sexy like you pooh-poohed me for suggesting, or providing something the partner likes, as we've all been suggesting. I don't know how you managed to reverse yourself, but I'm glad you finally get it.
Lava @101: "Even if it’s only sitting at my feet while I sit on the lounge.. my answer would still be no. Not interested."
Lava @120: "I’d be fine with a bit of collar and leash play in the bedroom, jewel encrusted collar, smart leash."
Sorry, It’s been a tough day Fan. Big fires here on the coast and I was banned for one day from an online community board. Time out the moderator called it! Like I’m a toddler.
Did I change my position, now I’m confused.
I was saying that’s the only way I’d be interested in any way by this kink. Some kinks would be a straight up absolute no. Up to the LW to expand his view of how this would play, I don’t get from his words that making it sexy is a goal. Do you?
Maybe CMD’s words shifted my view a bit.
On reflection Fan, I haven’t changed my response, though I extended it because it’s a conversation, and CMD’s words did influence me. I wouldn’t be interested in watching TV or sitting on a bed reading while a man sat at my feet with a collar and leash on.
If it was a spiced up scene in the bedroom around sex, not reading.. I can see the play opportunities. As presented by the LW, my response would still be no. Not interested.
Lava @124: CMD's words did make a lot of sense, hence the gold star. "I was saying that’s the only way I’d be interested in any way by this kink." And that's the point -- many women would be interested in this kink IF certain conditions were met. For you, it would have to be a part of sexual play, and he would have to return the dominating favour. (What is that if not "accommodation"?) For me, it would be coming home to a clean bathroom or dinner and him in his skivvies. For someone else, it might be his agreeing to submit in other ways. Some may give it a try and find they enjoy it for its own sake; some may find it too silly to even try. The point is that his bringing this up is the beginning, not the end, of a conversation where both people get to express what they like and don't like about this kink of his. Sure, it may lead to a hard no under any circumstances -- but it is worth seeing if some middle ground can be found. Like you read for half an hour while he's leashed, then pull him up to the bed to pleasure you. Sounds like a very minor thing that could reap big rewards.
I don’t want to have scenes where I’m accommodated, Fan or accomodating. It’s got to be felt. I’d not want a sub man putting it on. Pretending to feel it as a D, to accomodate me.
Talking of Ds, hope you’re going ok dr jones. Sorry to read a few weeks back about your job loss. That’s a bummer.
Yes, Fan, he needs to talk about it and give his kink some air. Hopefully he will understand that it needs to be a dynamic, and one which both can enjoy and create together.
Lava @127, this goes back to the question of whether Doms are born or made. At your age, and mine, we have a good idea of what we are into. LEASH, and probably the women he is dating, are in their 20s. I know I'm considerably kinkier now than I was at 25, because kinky partners gently eased me into things which I had no independent interest in but grew to enjoy. Perhaps LEASH could be inspired to find his dominant side, as I did while "accommodating" partners who'd been GGG for me.
@111. CMD. 'He doesn't feel like he belongs in the D/s scene'. I'm not sure this is true. He could be taking baby-steps towards it.
Otherwise everything you say shines a warm, kind light on LEASH's situation; and I agree with your broad approach of showing he can do vanilla at the start of a relationship.
For Towny, a little late. I met my husband in 1976 when I was 24 and he was 41. I didn't make a decision to love him, but things just meshed, sexually and intellectually. We've had a few bad times over 40+ years but lots and lots of good times. I want to share this anecdote that I recalled in a sleep break last week. Shortly after I met Jim, we had a big cocktail party. I rounded the corner into the living room that was empty except for two of his long-standing friends, in time to hear one say, "I give it six weeks." He's dead.
Let me add to my comment above--not for Towny but for Gay men who despair of ever finding love--my husband and I met in a nasty bathhouse in Charlotte, NC, which opened and a year or so later closed. Where or how doesn't matter. Who are you two? That matters.
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