Savage Love Jan 28, 2020 at 4:00 pm

Rain Checks

JOE NEWTON

Comments

1

FWNB~ Hmmmm...I think I’ve heard this story once or a thousand times before: Longtime friend gets a “special” lover and is never seen again. Sucks, but realize this...perhaps they weren’t the loyal friend you thought they were. OR perhaps they’re just awash in endorphins and as Cher said in “Moonstruck” they’ll “snap out of it!” Either way, I think you’ll have to re-evaluate your friendship with this guy.

2

These situations always get blamed on the girlfriend, but it's your friend who has chosen to set aside your friendship (even if he has understandable reasons). If your friendship dies, try not to blame it on her.

3

The woman whose bloke wanted to hand her out as a semen receptacle should already be on the way out.

There may be several MFs that have redeeming features (the ones with a proper sense of humility who are simply trying to prop up a weak relationship?), but this one is like a particularly noisome stick of seaside rock: he says ASSHOLE all the way through.

4

LW1: consider you have received a relatively pain-free insight into BF's values and character. DTMFA and happy trails.

5

@1 DonnyKlicious: WA-HOOOO!!! Congrats for scoring this week's "FIRDT" Award! Bask in the envied glory of officially starting the comment thread. :)

6

Bravo and thank you, Dan the Man, for another spot on response to TODUMP. I agree, have nothing more to add, and second it.

I may never eat cream pie again.
@TODUMP: DTMFA ! You deserve infinitely better.

7

And Joe Newton smacks it out of the park AGAIN! Well done.

8

Her phrasing is off: 'now he's not allowed to...'. No: he has accepted this prohibition to shore up his marriage. After the tonsil hockey and 'semi-dirty' texts, he had to consider his priorities; and he placed his wife's peace of mind and (maybe) insecurities before his sexually charged friendship with you.

9

Point of admin: TODUMP has already been discussed, including contributions from the LW herself explaining that the third wasn't an asshole for asking her to stop sucking his dick and leaving without saying goodbye but because he just generally behaved like an asshole:
https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2020/01/22/42632285/how-do-you-politely-end-a-threesome-that-isnt-working

FWNB: Yes, yes, we caught what your genders were, thanks for explaining it multiple times. I agree with Dan. The clue here is "Complicating matters, my friend wanted to re-raise the possibility of opening up his relationship with his partner." So the friend, I'll call him Mike, asks his girlfriend to open their relationship, and she says no. Then, unhappy with her answer, he gets drunk, makes out with a platonic female friend, then creates some evidence that she "accidentally" sees. Mike has just used you to issue an ultimatum to his girlfriend, who I agree is unlikely to remain his girlfriend much longer. He's rebelling, and you were a prop in their disagreement. Your friend will be back soon, and when he comes crying to you, tell him that he needs to be more of a grownup about negotiating openness in his next relationship.

10

KBW @2: Yes. Mike wants an open relationship, doesn't get his way, drunkenly makes out with a female friend in retaliation, spills the beans, and -the girlfriend- is the bad guy for getting upset and not wanting him to spend more time with FWNB? Mike, grow up. FWNB, you too.

Harriet @8: Partner, not wife. Indeed, this "not allowed to" business is bull.

11

The relationship between FWNB and Mr. FWNB was probably a sore subject with Mr. FWNB's girlfriend (Ms. FWNB). Ms. FWNB probably knew about FWNB’s open marriage, but more than that, Ms. FWNB was probably uneasy about this close, long-standing relationship that pre-dated her relationship with Mr. FWNB.

I once had a girlfriend jealous of another woman, and it was exhausting and irritating to have to defend my friendship with a woman. Jealously is toxic for a romantic relationship, and ultimately, that factored into my decision to end my relationship with that girlfriend.

That said, I did not complicate that dynamic by engaging sexually with another woman, as has Mr. FWNB. Also, one point that FWNB does not fully appreciate is that Ms. FWNB found out about this drunken make out session by seeing follow-up dirty texts.

12

Sorry, LW2 - you're not 100% to blame here, but you and your friend share full joint and several liability for this. You two made out and then dirty-texted about it later - what did you think was going to happen?

BTW, nice trickle-truthing there. "His gf is being a total controlling shrew over this! I mean, it was one accidental kiss! He drunkenly kissed me, NBD... ok, so it was more of a full-on makeout session (on the sidewalk too - classsy!)... aaaand yeah, maybe a few dirty texts afterwards showing how much we didn't regret what we did and definitely were gonna do it again... but... no, I totally am not into him and defintely have no further intentions towards him... but the kiss was hot, tho..."

You got sexual with your taken friend and then followed it up with written confirmation that you'd probably do it again. What exactly did you think was going to happen if the gf found out? If you wanted to keep your friendship, you should have kept your tongue out of his mouth. But, you didn't, and now your friendship and his romantic relationship are mutually exclusive items.

So accept the L and next time don't get sexual with any monogamously-coupled friends you want to keep. That's the price of keeping friends - along with not stealing from them to fund a coke habit, not spreading terrible rumors about them, and other such friendship dealbreakers.

13

Traffic @12, yeah, FWNB isn't as innocent as she thinks and sounds very immature. Even if he initiated the making out, she could have said, stop, you're in a relationship. She needs to share the blame and accept the consequences. The letter also raised some red flags about possible alcohol abuse. Sure, perhaps with my history I'm more sensitive to these than most, but if one of your shared hobbies is excessive drinking and it's leading you to do things you normally wouldn't do, you might want to have a look at the role booze plays in this friendship and in your life. This is college-student behaviour and you're, what, at least 30 and married. Hmm.

14

Here's what a friend would do. Accept that your no benefits guy has to go no-contact for now, but keep an eye out for signs that his girlfriend is being controlling in more ways than just this. If it looks like she's isolating him from all of his old friends/support group, let him know that you will always be there for him should he need you. Leave lines of communication open that much. Also concentrate on those parts of your relationship that don't involve drinking. Friendships that are all about getting drunk sometimes (often?) crumble when the alcohol is removed. Those weren't great friendships to begin with. It's possible that the woman who seems like a controlling girlfriend from here is moving her boyfriend in the very positive direction of drinking less. I say possible because I can't really say from here. I'm not against drinking and drinking buddies. I can't tell if this guy is borderline alcoholic or legitimately likes a few drinks with friends now and then.

15

l-dub 1... run away!!

l-dub-2... mistakes often lead to consequences. here you are.

16

The second letter writer takes no responsibility for her actions. Being in an open relationship doesn't mean that you can do whatever you want, you need to also take into consideration other people's situations. If she's known this guy for 12 years and they're drinking buddies, then she knows his partner at least by reputation and probably in person. That means that you knew what her reaction would be if she found out and did it anyways. It wasn't just a kiss while drunk, it was a make-out and some dirty texts.

You're not ethically practicing your nonmonogamy. Part of that is to do whatever you can to make sure that you're abiding by the rules of other relationships. That doesn't mean you have to become Angela Lansbury and investigate each partner but you have to ask people their relationship status and respect their rules. You didn't do that. Own that. Change because of that.

If you want to do anything to minimize your consequences, your only bet is to write the offended party a note in which you take responsibility for your actions (not letting him off the hook) and apologize for any pain you caused. No excuses that you were drunk, no mitigating factors, just an apology and a pledge to do better in life in the future. That might make her think you're not a dirtball, which would be charitable since you and your make-out buddy are in fact dirtballs.

17

Alll the way @8 and @13 & @16.

I'll also add, your letter just doesn't feel honest- like you haven' been honest with yourself. First it's "he kissed me"-- later it's "we made out on the sidewalk and exchanged dirty text messages"-- then it's "I never would have initiated and I'm not attracted to him", followed by "even if the kiss was really hot."

You are attracted to your friend, and if he was in an open relationship as well, you two would be hooking up. Problem is, as @16 got at, you broke the rules of being a good ethical nonmongomomist by "making out" and "exchanging dirty text messages' with someone not available- and so even if dude was to open his relationship up, my bet is you're off limits--which would be totally reasonable as you've already proved yourself someone who didn't respect the rules of his marriage with this "very good friend" of yours. There's no way his wife is putting you back in the mix when you're the example of him breaking the previous rules.

If you're in an open marriage, you know trust is the only thing absolutely necessary in negotiating the boundaries of a healthy open relationship. Unfortunately for your friend, there is no way he's going to start an open marriage on this kind of footing.

I also get the impression ya'll are still talking, and mourning the loss of your friendship in text- which I'm betting his wife is not cool with. And as @8 said, he isn't "not allowed" to see you anymore-- he fucked up and agreed to the terms to get right with his wife. You'd be a better friend to respect this from a distance than try to wiggle your way back in. Consequences for actions, LW. Thems the breaks.

18

LW1, why are you wasting your time with this disrespectful man? With Dan on this one, sans the never ending ball kicking.. means you’d have to stay around him.
Don’t indulge or ignore this type of behaviour, because this man is in it for himself, not caring about you. So why stick around? You’re young, so move him on, pronto. A few goodbye kicks to the balls, as you walk out the door, may get your point across so next time, he listens to his partner, and respects her wishes.

20

@19 Pij Obviously you are very inexperienced and ill informed of the many reasons a guy might have trouble maintaining an erection. Come back when you learn some constructive insight.

21

I'm not sure it's necessary to cover why Third Dude couldn't keep it up, that's a Red Herring in this story. Bottom line is that BF wanted GF to raw dog a complete stranger so he could get his jollies watching. That's horrible and he needs to go.
Quite frankly, the whole dream of threesomes and throuples and such is a porn-driven fantasy that rarely comes together right in real life. (Been there, done that... with equally unpleasant results.)

23

Well, I am a female, so no.

25

As others have noted, FWNB is quite the unreliable narrator. Starts with "One of my closest friends kissed me while very drunk" all innocent, HE kissed HER and she wan't involved. Later acknowledging the two were making out in public, while still phrasing it "we ended up making out" as though it simply happened without her volition, and then going on to exchange dirty text messages.

Lesson learned, maybe. When it's it is heartbreaking to think you might lose someone over one incident, don't do the incident.

26

Pijamaradus~ Don't you have some 7th grade math homework to do?

27

FWNB, you thought you were platonic drinking buddies, but he's probably had a crush on you for a long time. If his girlfriend does miraculously agree to an open relationship, and then agrees to give her blessing to your friendship, you may find that it's not possible to go back to the platonic friendship you've had in the past, because he wants to pursue you.

Speaking from experience as a woman who has genuinely cared for platonic male friends, only to find out that their caring for me was tied into a hope for romance.

28

Obvious troll. Seriously, don't bother.

29

About the second letter:

"How'd THAT happen?!"

30

I can only applaud Mr Savage's pointing out that drunkenness really doesn't make any sort of case for what happened between drinking buddies.

31

So, I've noticed this trend: lots of people seem to think they're entitled to the time and friendship of specific other people simply because they want it. It's not dissimilar to the phenomenon of people feeling entitled to have sex with specific other people simply because they want to. In fact, it's often an idea implicitly raised when countering sexual entitlement: if two people are friends (new friends, old friends, whatever) and one of them wants a sexual relationship while the other doesn't, people are quick to recognize that the prrson with sexyfeels isn't entitled to sex, but then turn around and insist that the other person deciding ze's only interested in a romantic/sexual relationship is manipulative or terrible etc. (a response call on this week's Lovecast asserted exactly this). But that's wrong - you need consent for friendship just like you need consent for sex, and you're not actually entitled to time or consideration (beyond the basic social contract) or friendship from any particular person.

(Side note: while someone opting out of any contact if dating or sex isn't an option MAY have had ulterior motives the entire time or even didn't truly care about the other person and was playing some kind of very long game JUST to get laid, we can't read minds, so it's really hard to tell. It's at least as likely that zir feelings changed over time, that ze tends to be attracted more to people that ze knows better, and/or that the friendship is real but the person is still only interested in friendship-plus; if you're taking up someones time/energy that ze's devoting to dating, ze may LOGISTICALLY not have the time or bandwidth to maintain a close friendship while also moving along to look for partners who ARE interested in zir in a sexual/romantic way.)

If this guy decides to cut contact, that's sad, but it's his choice to prioritize his girlfriend's feelings over this friendship, and since there WAS a violation of his romantic relationship rules that took place, I don't read it as particularly controlling or abusive on his girlfriend's part. LW should behave exactly as she would/should for a sexual rejection: accept the (possibly temporary) "no" at face value, graciously and without pressure, wish her friend well, and refocus on other friendships. If he comes back around later, great, and if not, oh well; the former is going to be more likely if you show yourself to besomeone who can be good with boundaries and doean't burn bridges when she happens to not get her way.

32

@13 getting drunk and having a consensual make out is hardly a sign of alcohol abuse, it's a sign of a good time.

I call BS on the "i was never attracted" part. A drunken make out you can play off, dirty texts subsequently are harder to rationalize. That being said, the GF reminds me of my exes, all of whom were very wary of ANY female friendships I had, regardless of the background of the relationship. My personal experience is that the more a woman sees marriage as a possibility in your relationship, the more jealous she'll be of friendships and outside hobbies and even possessions she'll be. It's only easy to rationalize and actualize jealousy under certain rubrics however, so female friends or non-work scenarios where you interact with women regularly are the first to go.

33

@10. Bi. Yes, thank you--she's the one who's married. I agree that her friend's gf may soon give him the boot (it doesn't sound as if she will accede to his repeated requests for 'open'). The lw and her friend sound more like each other and her friend and his current partner, even if not sexually compatible.

@14. Fichu. There aren't really signs his gf may be controlling. She fears being cheated on by a guy who's presenting as something of a horndog (badgers her for open; makes out with his potentially sexually available drinking buddy). Reading in between the lines, his gf is going to demur at opening her relationship. She may just want to firm up his monogamous commitment to her before she decides on anything else. (Or see whether, with goodwill in a way that's into her, whether he can make this commitment).

34

Laces @20, obviously he's a troll who only ever gets his dick sucked in his dreams.

Tim @21, I'm sorry to hear that. I've had plenty of enjoyable threesomes! As has this LW, who dropped into the comments when the letter was run as a SLLOTD.

Donny @26, you win!

Stone @27, one hint of that is that the friend "insists" his desire to open his relationship "has nothing to do with me." If he's "insisting," it's almost certain this has everything to do with her.

John @31, the only aspect I see as controlling is that he is not "allowed" to be around her even in a group setting. Insisting the regular drinking sessions stop sounds reasonable, but to say that he can't go to an event if FWNB will be there seems a bit over-the-top. (Side note, is she attending these group events? If not, why not?) It's possible that she is just angry and will relax her stance when some time has passed. But given FWNB's no-big-deal attitude, I'm not surprised GF doesn't want "Mike" to have any in-person contact with her.

As for the "friendship entitlement" issue, this sounds like a tangent to the "friend zone" problem. A befriends B but only as a desired stepping stone to sex. B grows to see A as a genuine friend. A finally makes their move, B says no, A ends the friendship, B is heartbroken. Is B entitled to continue the friendship with A on platonic grounds? No, I agree, there's no entitlement; while it indeed isn't "fair" that B lost a friend, trying to be just-friends with someone who's turned you down might be too painful for many people. In that situation B might console themself with the knowledge that A wasn't their friend in the first place and so it's not the loss it seems.

Sporty @32, a good time that cost them a 12-year friendship. Some of us got tired of paying prices like that for a "good time."

35

Harriet @33: yeah, call me a big ol' Christian Grey if you want, but "no more hanging out with the person you cheated on me with" seems like a reasonable ask.

BDF @34: I wonder if they made out at a "group event?" I mean, it's pretty easy to slip away from a group for a bit of making out - especially if it's a drinking party. Lord knows, I've certainly done it a few times myself (though not with anyone's S/O, to the best of my knowledge).

36

Traffic @35, yes, fair point. Though I would opine that if he has an active social life and she has no interest in coming along to these events with him, that's another tick in the "relationship is doomed" column.

37

LW2: don't be dense. Considering your buddy's relationship was not open, making out with someone else and exchanging dirty texts was him cheating (albeit Cheating Lite) with you. It is in no way controlling for his partner to want him to stop contact with the person he cheated (Lite) on her with. She didn't do anything wrong and isn't doing anything wrong, she is just not a fucking doormat.

She isn't ending your friendship with this guy, YOU and HE torpedoed it. And he's lucky that she isn't such a stickler for fidelity that Cheating Lite isn't a deal breaker. And you're a bad friend for participating in that, just as he is a bad boyfriend and friend for doing it, because he was perfectly willing to risk your friendship and/or his relationship for a drunken makeout and sexting and you were perfectly willing to help him put himself in that situation, particularly with no similar risk to yourself ("well I'M in an open marriage"). You could have ended his relationship and contentedly maintained yours.

You two both suck, but he at least is accepting the consequences of his poor decisions instead of minimizing and projecting fault onto an otherwise innocent (at least in this whole situation) woman. You sound like a self-righteous (in your open-relationship-ness, HOW ENLIGHTENED) narcissist.

38

Kissing/making out/flirting does NOT equal "cheating" and given that what happened was immediately self-reported- no hiding it, lying about it, finding out about it by asking questions, etc- I don't think the gf has grounds to insist that her bf end a longtime friendship.
That said, there's really nothing the LW can do about it. He's decided to acquiesce to his gf's wishes, and she has to accept that choice even if she does think it is coerced. Since emotions run high at first, it's possible that gf will come around eventually, but not guarranteed. The gf may find that policing/worrying about her bf's social interactions is more trouble than it's worth.

39

Tim @21, Raw Dog, interesting phrase. I agree, the third is a red herring and he’s long gone anyway.

40

Bi@34 Yes, thank you. Usually, I know better than to engage trolls. It was just one of those moments where I couldn't take the b.s.

41

@26 DonnyKlicious: Agreed and seconded with BiDanFan: Donny for the WIN!

42

Raw dog.....cream pie........oy vey, the present-day terms and their meanings!

43

IWasSfr @38, making out and exchanging dirty texts DOES constitute cheating in the girlfriend's book, and that's the only one that matters here. He didn't disclose the infraction, his girlfriend accidentally-on-purpose? saw their follow-up texts. If BF has a different definition of cheating than his girlfriend does, he's welcome to break up with her over it. As things stand now, the doghouse is exactly where he belongs.

Laces @40, I get ya. Fell into the same trap last week with a regular troll who victim-blamed the writer of today's first letter. Felt good to give him what for but ultimately did no good as he popped up on another thread just yesterday with his moralising bullshit. Sigh.

44

44!

(I'm silly sometimes.)

45

@38 making out and sexting is ABSOLUTELY cheating to most monogamous people! It is, I would think, the type of cheating that can be forgiven easier (in the same way a single incident is far easier to forgive than a 2 year affair resulting in a secret child), but it's still cheating. And more importantly, it opens the door to reasonable suspicions which the girlfriend obviously had. He didn't tell her, she found out, and from her perspective she may have found a small bit of a larger situation. She is completely reasonable to expect her boyfriend, who obviously can't be trusted around the LW (nor the LW be trusted with him), to sever that relationship. And him refusing would be a grounds for a DTMFA.

46

Ms Fan - I took #31 to suggest that sometimes B dangles the potential of slowly moving romantic interest to lure A into friendship. It works out most neatly when people are being equally deceptive to each other.

47

BDF and Rob
I guess we'll have to disagree on what constitutes cheating. (I am monogamous, fwiw, and I think the lying, sneaking, deception, badmouthing, and transfer of emotion/energy/focus that is normally involved is way more key to "cheating" than physical contact is, although actual sex acts (involves genitals) themselves would count in my book.) I must have missed the part where she found out- for some reason, I thought that he had told the gf of his own accord. I think that point is key to my interpretation, and if I'm wrong about that, then my point is much weaker, as making out is in the space between platonic and not, and needs to be not secret. (See "deception" in the list above.) Flirting, in my opinion, is so not cheating. I assume everyone flirts who wants to, and consider it normal.

49

IWasSfR @47: You got the idea that he told her because this dishonest LW initially couched it that way: "One of my closest friends kissed me while very drunk, told his female partner, and now he's not allowed to see me anymore, even in group settings." How unreasonable of her! Oh, wait, except that that's not the full story. He didn't "kiss her," they made out. And they sent follow-up sexts. Not so innocent now, is it? Furthermore, he didn't confess: "We ... exchanged a few semi-dirty text messages later that night, which—unfortunately for all of us—his partner saw." Unfortunately? She might think it was quite fortunate that she saw this evidence. Deception IS involved here, since FWNB for one did not want the girlfriend to find out. At any rate it doesn't matter -- making out and exchanging dirty texts IS a step above flirting, though a step below genital contact, which explains why the girlfriend didn't dump the guy but did insist that he remove himself from the particular temptation that is FWNB. I don't think many people in monogamous relationships would consider drunken make-out sessions a "normal" level of flirting. You do -- so the solution is for you to date people who agree with your definition of cheating, unlike Mr FWNB's girlfriend, whose definition of cheating is also valid.

51

Dan, I emailed you a letter. Please help me.

52

@51 Are you okay?

53

@51: auntie grizelda, can we help in any way?

54

@auntie grizelda: can we do anything to help? I hope you're alright.

56

@52 CalliopeMuse and @53 nocutename: Thank you very much for your kind support. I experienced a bad PTSD spell today after getting severely trolled online (with sexually explicit innuendos). It felt like I was being raped---again. There is sufficient reason why I do not subscribe to Twitter--never have, and never will. I have decided to take a break from Slog for a while, and only comment in Dan's Savage Love and SLOTTD columns.
I have reported the trolling that was in a comment thread in Slog. Hopefully the inflammatory comments have since been removed. And people wonder why I am neither dating nor married and am happily asexual.

I did several things to help myself regain composure and relax: I had a healthy lunch, took a nap, and called the VA Crisis & Suicide Prevention Hotline [1 (800) 273-8255] to talk to someone about the onset of my triggers. Then I took a long, hot bath. It will be the zillionth time, but tonight is very fitting for another viewing of It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World for comic diversion after dinner.

57

I have been around rabid, raging testosterone far too many times for no benefits or comfort. Toxic masculinity is such a cancer!

58

@auntie grizelda: I'm glad you practiced such good self-care. I hope you're feeling more composed tomorrow.

60

Hi auntie grizelda, I'm sorry that you were targeted by that cruelty, that it triggered your PTSD, and that you need to take time to take care of yourself to let the traumatic symptoms subside. I'm sorry that your mean new abuser used the anonymity of the Internet to treat you like you aren't a real and sensitive and wonderful person. Sending warm caring virtual vibes out to you from me! I wish I knew all the Monkees so I could ask them to reach out to you with hugs.

61

Hugs from me too Grizelda.

62

auntie grizelda -- I'm so sorry that people can be so awful. I'm glad you have coping techniques that work for you. Virtual hugs to you. If I had a VW bug (which as we've discussed before is my dream car and I'm jealous of yours), I'd send VW beeps to you as well.

(The smell of anything with lavender in it often helps me chill out, so maybe you can also find your favorite scent or mix of scents in a bath salt or essential oil or lotion or something for emergencies or just everyday relaxation. I have an essential oil diffuser in my room and it makes it feel like a little sanctuary. Even the inexpensive diffusers work great -- mine was cheap. Lavender is my favorite but everyone has their own.)

63

Basically everything I own smells like lavender -- hand soap, body wash, shampoo, conditioner, candles, air freshener, deodorant, bath salts, scent sachets for dresser drawers... I even have an aromatherapy pen with a little absorbent pad that I put lavender oil on so I can stay calm in class writing notes. My favorite combination of essential oil scents is lavender and sweet orange. People who claim essential oils can cure asthma and cancer are basically evil, but finding your favorite scent and surrounding yourself with it is definitely good for your psyche.

Not that I'm telling you what to do, auntie grizelda, but if long, hot baths are a coping technique that works for you, you may be able to enhance it by adding your favorite scent, whether that's lavender, mint, lemon, orange, lemongrass... IDK I'm just trying to help. >_<

64

Adding epsom salt to a bath is incredibly relaxing too.

65

@58 nocutename: Many thanks, big hugs, positrons, and VW beeps. These, continuous music activity, cats, interaction with the good people in my life--including you and so many here, and of course, when the good spring weather returns, drives in my beloved little Love Beetle, who I'm sure is getting antsy to come out of hibernation.
@60 curious2: Many thanks, too, for reaching out. Of the four Monkees (Michael Nesmith, Micky Dolenz, Peter Tork, and Davy Jones), only two (Nesmith and Dolenz) are still alive today (sadly, Davy Jones died in 2012 at age 66; Peter passed away last year at 77. Rest in peace, Davy and Peter). I can imagine their roaring along Southern California beaches in their Monkee Mobile, a wicked red Pontiac GTO convertible used in the TV show. Big hugs, positrons, and VW beeps!
@61 LavaGirl: Big hugs, positrons, and VW beeps right back at you, and many thanks! I understand that there is finally sone relief with rainfall where you are. I hope it is enough to finally extinguish the deadly wildfires throughout Australia.
@62 & @63 CalliopeMuse: Many thanks, big hugs, positrons, and VW beeps to you, too. I like lavender (local bees LOVE it!), too. My favorite fragrance is from Chloe French perfume. It's soft, floral, and not overbearing (I used to wear a much heavier perfume long ago, and its proved to be stifling). It makes for a nice deodorant, too, which makes me happy (less use of deodorant sticks that can telltale leave marks on clothing). Soothing hot baths really help do the trick to relieve muscle tension and anxiety for me.

66

@64 curious2: Agreed. There's nothing like submerging in warm, sudsy water!
My beloved and I plan to head for the San Juans again when the warm weather returns. We have friends who have a pool and jacuzzi. :)

67

“ I have reported the trolling that was in a comment thread in Slog.”

Oh Lordy Auntie Grizzled literally called for genocide and is playing victim here. Let’s copy and paste what she said before anyone thinks she’s the victim:

“ All RepubliKKKans deserve to be shot by a firing squad, brutally tortured, gassed and burned in ovens.”

I’m glad you’re not my aunt nut job.

68

@67: I have reported you for trolling. What you have quoted was from another comment thread and is highly inappropriate here. You can personally eat my shit, choke on it, and painfully die of every painful form of cancer, you wretched MAGA piece of shit.

69

@68: My comments from an entirely different thread were in anger towards Donald Jackass Trump and the entire highly corrupt Republican party for blindly marching in lockstep to defend such a dangerously unfit to govern monster. @67, you are not welcome here. FUCK OFF!

70

@69: Thank you, Dan, and wonderful regular SL commenters for your love and support. I gladly and humbly accept my Lucky @69 Award. All trolls, on the other hand, can fuck off and die.

71

Congrats Grizelda. Use the Magic well.

72

Ms Muse - The only downside that comes quickly into mind to your love of lavender (which I've always wished ended in -ar instead of -er for some reason) is that it will disqualify you from dating Sam Seder, who can't stand it.

Ms Grizelda - Good on you for knowing how to cope effectively.

73

@68 You seem nice, why aren’t you happily married?

74

@73: See DonnyKlicious's comment @26, provided you can read, and fuck off.

75

IWasSfR, I'm an a monogamous relationship and for me making out is definitely not "in the space between platonic and not". Making out and exchanging dirty texts are absolutely cheating and in no way equivalent to flirting. The lying/sneaking/deception are just as bad though.
For me, flirting is no more than a mildly suggestive conversation. That might just be the way I'm wired though.

76

In the spirit of Carolyn Hax's last chat, could making out be described as peri-cheating?

77

@72 vennominon: Thanks. I try. Some days are better---and much easier---than others.


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