Savage Love

Cam What May

Comments

1

Wow, I didn't realize that men masturbating = "at their worst". Seems like men do a lot worse when they can't get it elsewhere..

2

"Something else to bear in mind: you worry that doing this kind of sex work—roughly the same kind you did—may make it impossible for your daughter to fall in love, create a family, pursue her professional goals, or even make a decent living. But you fell in love, created a family, and presumably make a good living yourself. And while it's possible that doing this kind of work delayed achieving those goals, TCGM, you weren't derailed or destroyed by it and your daughter doesn't have to be either. (And is less likely to be with her mom in her corner.)"

This is what struck me. The letter sounds more like an anxious (maybe pathologically, maybe not) parent projecting her own worst fears about how her own life might have gone wrong (but actually didn't) all over her daughter. This is common, LW, but it's not productive. Resolve to offer advice and support (not criticism or shaming), and I think you'll both be fine.

Also consider that capitalism is responsible for most of what makes sex work bad for people for whom it's bad, like ALL work, and don't vote for capitalists.

3

@1: Taken out of context, sure I guess. But I think LW probably felt objectified and dehumanized in her job... and that's valid. Men treating women as sex objects can get really gross and awful.

4

Dan seems to be pretty good at parenting advice. Well done.

5

The Lusty Lady was indeed gross. There were shiny cum puddles everywhere and I was afraid to touch anything, be it a door knob or the slot where you insert a quarter.
If clients were grossed out one can only imagine what dancers felt like.

As for cam work, the site I checked out has a cam 2 cam option for a fee, a digital version of the partitions Dan was talking about, so you are likely to see some of your clientele.

Speaking of Dan, what were you doing there? I don’t recall any male dancers, though it could have been a spot to meet other men.

6

I believe LW1 needs to do her homework, because she's accepting her daughter's following statement as FACT:
Quoted passage: She recently graduated with a marketable degree, but she hasn't been searching for a job in her field because, as she puts it, "It's hard to want to apply for a minimum wage job when I make the same working from home."

I obviously must have a different definition of "marketable degree" and it's certainly not something that leads to a puny hourly wage. Check out the stats in your daughter's field for yourself, mom. The other thing is that young grads - especially if they really do have marketable degrees - are excited to be out in the real world, so they can prove their worth while they have a surplus of youthful energy. The daughter sounds world-weary and complacent for her age.

7

@6: I appreciate your sentiments, but I'm afraid this is the USA in 2020. Many if not most 23-year-old recent college graduates are NOT finding the market for jobs, even "marketable" jobs, to be all that inspiring or welcoming or promising of a good wage, and thus they're not so "excited to be out in the real world" of the USA job market, plus they often have crazy amounts of debt to deal with — a certain amount of world-weariness is pretty typical among young US college graduates (maybe — hopefully! — it's different in Canada). And I don't agree that TCGM should be doing any "homework" in this regard... LW1, I'm betting your daughter does NOT want you to be checking out jobs and stats in her field and giving her job counseling. That said, LW1, I think your perspective on how sex work affected you is really interesting and moving, and I suspect your daughter would be grateful to hear it, especially since you're not saying sex workers are evil. You're saying "I started doing sex work, and after a few years I realized it had slowly taken a toll on my happiness and love for life, and so I hope that as time passes you'll be wary of how sex work is affecting you, too." (This is something that could said about nearly any job, by the way, and a perspective that I would think a 23-year-old, already nervous about how low-wage work might affect her, would be able to relate to.)

8

@5: I just went once to check it out, not look for boys. And... yeah, it was gross. Come puddles, everything was... damp and slimy. I was glad the women didn't have to walk around on the paying customer side of the partitions. Boiled my shoes after I left... which is pretty much the same thing I did after going to a gay bathhouse for the first time ever... in Seattle roughly around the same time I went to the Lusty. Took a look around, marveled that anyone could get naked much less hard there, and went straight home and boiled my shoes.

9

"There are women and men out there whose dream job is sex work."

This is a naive belief, supporting sex workers does not mean supporting the sex industry. There is a small proportion of mind broken nympomanics or greedy, naive self deceiving young people prostituting themselves for spending money but it is not the typical person in the sex trade.

The thing is although circulating nude photos have become a little more normalized, future employers, coworkers, partners, acquaintances, friends coming across those are still embarrassing, videos are a extra step.

Contrary to some statements "marketable degree" does equal minimum wage, one has to start somewhere to even see what is out there for your self. Diddling ones self in your bedroom will not give you real life work experience, ethic, contacts, self confidence etc

Mom can convince her kid to also be working a side part time job in a field she shows interest in or a internship, to keep her ambitions and perspective else where.

10

Dan, great advice to TCGM. Some parents would be more disappointed to have a daughter who was married and had a kid before the age of 22 than a daughter who was doing no-touch sex work, just saying. Speak your piece and then let your daughter make her own decisions. It's likely she'll do what TCGM did - cam work for a few years, then figure out what she wants to do career wise. I think it's ridiculous that we push 18-year-olds to decide what they want to do with the rest of their lives, and go tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt pursuing something their 22-year-old selves may have no interest in. Cam work pays well, so TCGM's "mired in poverty" fear is unfounded. And her fear that it will jade her towards men? If TCG finds herself becoming jaded, she can stop, just like you did. Let your daughter live her life and be grateful she trusts you enough to share this with you.

Re MAD -- yes, your wife behaved very badly. But jealousy is a bitch. Has she apologised for her horrendous behaviour? If so, if the open request came from her, and if MAD has no independent interest in dating others, I'd suggest returning to monogamy. (I may be biased because something quite similar happened with a couple I am close to, and they are now happily monogamous.) But your wife must understand that she's the asshole, and be willing to make amends.

CMD @5, as a professional sex adviser I am not surprised Dan did field research by going to het strip clubs and the like. I recall straight women being included in group outings where someone said, "Hey, let's go to the strip club!", so why not a gay man? Curiosity is a thing.

11

LW1's daughter might not want to hear career advice, but that is kind of what parents of recent college grads are there for. There's no reason it needs to be negative or insensitive, first jobs out of college are usually underwhelming. Of course, to get the second and third jobs, you need to go through the first. This is really what I'd say LW1 should stress if she thinks her daughter is still interested in her field, that in a couple of years she can have the kind of job she at least used to dream of... probably paying several times minimum wage. Getting out of the house isn't all bad either.

12

@10 Money is easy come, easy go, your twenties are not a spare decade, she already has a degree and needs to be working in order to find that thing she wants to be doing. Self discovery is not navel gazing, forget the soul search and get a job. This barely not-18 year old has made a permanent decision to expose herself online. Sex work can be impoverishing emotionally and psychologically, it will distort her view of sex and men and its not always come back from a formative experience.

@11 Yes, exactly right

13

Dan @8, ah, I was typing as you were answering. Glad my guess was correct.

Harmonica @9, what is someone as sex negative as you doing here? Sex work is work. Sex workers must have "real world" skills like marketing, time management, client management, IT skills, and this sort of work could well boost her self confidence. You don't even know what her degree is in, much less what the job market is like in her area. Sex work is a real service and you should stop stereotyping the people who provide that service.

14

Harmonica @12, and you can't even read. She may be marketing herself online as "barely 18" (though we don't know that) but this woman is 23. She HAS got a job to pay her bills while she contemplates her future. I only hope her own mother can talk to her with less judgement and shaming than you're expressing.

15

LW1, as others have said, I think it’s great your daughter has confided in you.
JohnH @2, points to you projecting, and I believe there’s truth in that.
My twenty two yr old son is coasting along, and it worries me. He started Uni, then deferred. He doesn’t seem to know when he’s returning. He’s got a casual job which gets him by. He and his gf seem to be having a busy time, concerts and the like. Not all young people want to rush out there, and as parents we have to respect their choices. Hoping that in a couple of years when the brain finally settles, that a clear focus will come to them.
Re your dsughter’s sex work, I don’t know if you should share your experience with her. Sounds like a tragic place, where you worked. Your daughter is home and safe.
/ What sort of shoes did Dan boil. Wouldn’t they shrink. /
I don’t know if you should contaminate her mind with your experience. If she’s being safe, getting out and about with friends etc.. take her at her word. Doesn’t seem to phase her. Yet. And it may not. She could perhaps be enjoying herself, being an exhibitionist.
Our children’s sexuality is a no go zone in many ways, because our words can have such a deep effect on them.
I’d check she was being super safe. That none of the Johns can find her. See how she’s feeling along the way,.. keep an eye on her moods. If she starts not going out with friends, etc. Then, I suggest you intervene. Otherwise, take your cues from her.

16

I think the mom's doing a lot of projecting here -- I can't help but think that when she says "marketable degree," what she means is "a degree that I could have gotten a decent job with at that age," which can (and often is) a far cry from "a degree that pays a decent wage today." Y'know, like parents who think that their kids have to "pound the pavement" and go into businesses to get applications so they somehow get 'noticed,' rather than just going onto a website. (The same website which the prospective employee is then directed to, because it's the only way the business takes applications.)

17

How do you know all that Harmonica@12?
What about the men who pay this young woman.. what’s happening to their view of sexuality.
Who said anything about soul searching. And if you hadn’t noticed the capitalist credo has brought us to the point of extinction, so excuse these younger people if they don’t listen to a fucking word people like you say.

18

Why is the daughter making only minimum wage?
https://www.businessinsider.com/heres-how-webcam-models-make-money-2014-11

Who is skimming off the money? The webpage makers? Are they acting like the pimp who "employs" a prostitute and essentially steals the money from her while maintaining that they're offering her protection?

19

BDF @ 10 - "Some parents would be more disappointed to have a daughter who was married and had a kid before the age of 22 than a daughter who was doing no-touch sex work"

Exactly what I was thinking (although the daughter is older than her current relationship, if I understand correctly: "20 years of (more or less) blissful married monogamy behind me"). The LW was even younger than her daughter when she was doing sex work, and her relative lack of experience with men since (been with the same guy for 20 years) means that she actually believes she experienced men "at their worst" when, quite frankly, none of what is described by her, Dan or CMD sounds at all like the worst things men do. Her daughter might very well be much better prepared mentally for what she's doing than the LW was, but that won't stop the LW from projecting her fears onto her daughter... which is understandable, but should be of no importance in her daughter's life decisions.

Harmonica : What BDF said. It's obvious that you're just here to make yourself feel morally superior, but the truth is, you're totally out of touch with reality.

Fichu @ 18 - "Why is the daughter making only minimum wage?"

That may have been badly formulated by the LW, either consciously or not. The daughter might be working very few hours (which can be great at 23) but earning the equivalent of a 40-hour week at minimum wage. Or she might be earning much, much more, but the LW didn't want to say that as it would diminish the strength of her argument and invalidate some of her worries.

20

MAD’s wife acted super shitty and is seemingly an unrepentant hypocrite. But much more than that, she broke into his phone and directly interfered with his relationship with someone else, which she had formerly approved. This goes beyond mere jealousy and is a red flag of controlling behavior. Obviously she feels that she owns her husband and can do what she likes without concern for his feelings and desires. Based on what he’s written, it’s probable that she never intended that he consummate an extramarital relationship, or maybe that she never expected that he (unlikely her) would be successful.

Absent a sincere and full apology from her, I think he should seek couples therapy to address her selfish, entitled, and controlling behavior in the context of their marriage.

21

@19 Ricardo
Yes, I think we should believe "minimum wage" no more than we believe that men are at their worst when masturbating.

But having done field research myself, some cam models probably do make minimum wage if anything. There is a huge range in the size of the audiences in their rooms. And surprisingly, attractiveness and activities aren't the biggest factor in their income; the ones that make the most are the most charismatic, interactive with, and connected to, their audience; some even G-rated most of the time, some never more than PG-rated or R-rated. Which I think taps into loneliness more than sex. This might entail a very significant learning curve and acting ability.

22

I'm in NYC and I haven't been in a peep show since the mid 90s, I didn't know they still existed. Back when I went they were disgusting but I was a horny perv. I've had full on sex in many of those places for the right price. If the daughter is wearing a mask or have some way is disguising her face, if say doing the cam thing is far safer than turning trucks in a booth.

23

@ 21 - "surprisingly, attractiveness and activities aren't the biggest factor in their income"

Actually, I don't find that surprising at all. As you say, it "taps into loneliness more than sex", which is probably the biggest issue for many people on such sites IMO. We have developed a form of interaction - the Internet - that is devoid of actual physical contact, and it's basically taken over the entire way we live our daily lives. It does a great many things, but it never will give you the warmth of an actual IRL hug, so I'm sure we, collectively, are feeling increasingly lonely.

24

Please, folks, no judgement of LW1. She's a caring, loving, concerned parent seeking advice. That's how I'd feel about my daughter if she ever decides to do sex work.

Parenting is hard, too.

25

Anyone doing more than a few hours a day of cam work is either doing it wrong or hurting themselves, if not physically, then psychologically.

And here's the thing about cam work... You can do it at night! After work and after dinner! Like instead of watching tv. And on weekends!

That daughter should go get a job AND continue doing cam work if she wants. It's not an either/or deal.

26

Lava @17:
"And if you hadn’t noticed the capitalist credo has brought us to the point of extinction, so excuse these younger people if they don’t listen to a fucking word people like you say."

This sort of thing is why I love reading your comments :)

27

Fichu @18, I think you've misread it. The daughter says: "It's hard to want to apply for a minimum wage job when I make the same working from home." The reference to minimum wage is what non-sexual jobs would be paying. I agree with Ricardo that she's earning the same money in far fewer hours. And I doubt she's wearing a mask, Dashing @22 -- really? Watching a masked woman masturbate seems a niche kink to me. I don't think the peep shows still exist, camming is what has replaced them.

Twi @24, where do you see judgement? I see reassurance.

28

Give the mother some credit. She wants the best for her child based on her own experience/projection. She was probably supporting her daughter’s education for that reason and is likely to be disappointed that she chose the camming path.
She should talk to the daughter and relay her own experience yet support the daughter in whatever she chooses.

Many sex workers are in that business because of choice. I’ve met few in my social circles, women, men, and trans, well educated grounded people who know what they do and like it. Yes, there’s plenty abuse in this industry which is why it should be legalized. Employment abuse is also rampant in the food and corporate sectors.

As far as I can tell curious @ 21 assessment of cam work is pretty accurate and Brooklyn @ 25 is right that many work from home as part-timers and on their own terms.

30

a p.s. to my @21
It's also not just about audience size: the ones that make the very most (who I said did so with more interpersonal connection than sex) also attract most of the large to stunningly huge tippers. Amazing to me that there are people who each have many many thousands of dollars of such disposable income.

31

Curious @ 30 - Maybe they live in their mother's basement and don't pay rent.

32

@1 jack chandelier: WA-HOOOOO!!! Congrats on scoring this week's "FIRDT" award and starting us off! Bask in the SL glory. :)

@5 CMDwannabe and Dan the Man @8: I wasn't there, but what happened at the Lusty Lady really does sound gross.
@13 BiDanFan: I reached the same conclusion as you did as to why Dan (@8) was at the Lusty Lady. A combo of research on heterosexual activity and curiosity.

@29: Don't you have 7th grade math homework to catch up on?

33

@8 Dan: Did you ever get my email?

34

Dave Chapelle said : if someone masturbating was enough to rob your of your dreams, maybe you never had a dream to begin with.

Secondly, are you sure your daughters dreams are aligned with her degree? Imo internet cam work is the ideal - most of the benefits of sex work with almost none of the downsides. No violence, no stds, no word hours, no creepy bosses, no dimly lit parking lot to walk through

35

@25 the competition is too cut throat to pop on for an hour or two a night. You got to be in the game to win the game. Once you're established you can cut back hours, but it's not an easy moneymaker in 2020. It's not much different than being a YouTuber - 98%of people getting 0%of the attention.

36

If LW1 does share her story with her daughter, CMD@28, I think she needs to tone it down, because her experience of being a sex worker is not like how her daughter is doing it. Like sharing birthing stories, no two are the same experience.
Do lawyers tell their kids the pitfalls of being lawyers, or Drs? Probably. Do it in the same vein.
Sex work is legitimate, and the way this woman is doing it is non contact and hope she charges good rates.
Thanks ciods@26.
It’s true.. I don’t push my youngest, because what am I pushing him towards. Environmental science or looking into/ working with alternative energy sources would be my career choices for him. If he asked.

37

@35 No doubt true, which raises the question, How long as she been doing this? If she started after graduation (presumably last June?) I would hope she had some followers by now.

38

Be as anti-capitalist as one likes and I shan't object or stop anyone, but don't expect me to cheer.

Seems to me that the best way for LW1 to dissuade her daughter from sex work would have been to rhapsodize about her own career and offer enthusiastic hints and tips of the trade, much the same way that parental approval has often had the maximum effect in shortening a child's unsuitable attachment, but I suppose it's too late for that.

Mr Savage gets a pass; if we're ever the last two males on earth, he can be in charge of repopulation.

39

Brook @ 37
One would assume that if she started in June and still attract any clients she would have moved to something else without the need to disclose any of it to her mother.
Either she’s about to start camming or already realized that she can make the same amount as with other jobs. It is also possible that this line of work was introduced to her by a friend who has been doing this for some time.

I’m told there are also studios where you can have your own “room” and may look better with proper lighting and camera. Yet the studio gets a cut and in some of them the partition is nothing but a drape so you may have to put up with the sound of other women fake moaning.

42

...and still [can't] attract any...

43

L-dub 2, you are married to a narcissist or a borderline or just an old fashioned psycho. We could quibble. You could research it to decide which one. But really, wgaf? She's poison. Get the fuck outta there. Stat.

44

Thing is LW, many young people don’t want children and or marriage. Their world is a lot bleaker, as they look ahead.
I think the important thing to remember, if you share, is that you don’t judge her. Guidance without the heavy vibe that what’s she’s doing is wrong.
Because as she sees it, it’s not wrong for her and it is her life. If men won’t date her because of her work or later and it becomes her past work, then I sure hope they have never watched porn or gone to a sex worker. Fuck them and their double standards.

45

Best of luck, TCGM, in sharing your experiences as a sex worker with your grown daughter. What you have to offer is valuable. I hope all works out for the best in your reaching out and the life choices your daughter makes.
And thank you, again, Dan. I could not have responded to TCGM's letter better than you did.

@44 LavaGirl: Agreed re TCGM's situation, and seconded.

46

The first question is whether the lw's daughter has 'given up on her dreams'. Maybe she's deferring them for a while, taking stock and pursuing them another way? Her mother should find out. Saying 'but you had set your heart on being [a palaeontologist]' is not shaming her for her sex work. Anyone knows that, in order to get a good job in a 'marketable' industry, you have to stick out an entry-level job first. Either the mother can set her daughter right by powering through her child's disenchantment on this very basic point, or she should listen to how her daughter now envisions the arc of her career.

She should ask, too, how her daughter sees her clients. In disdain? Or with aversion? Or does she enjoy interacting with them, or think she's providing a valuable service at a fair price? Is what she's doing 'corrosive' of the possibility of het 'intimacy' for her, as it was for her mother? It's a legitimate question. Ask; don't soft-pedal your views or experience; listen.

47

Good points Harriet. I said nothing about how checking what happened to the gurl’s dreams was shaming her. Shaming is an attitude, and Mom needs to clear that from herself, before having this talk. Because children don’t always share what they are up to, so it’s precious this girl has shared. Be mindful not to close down her daughter’s sharing, by being judgemental. Keep an eye on her heath, physical and mental. Be available for ongoing sharing of issues.
My youngest has taken himself to see a therapist today. His father split from his life during his early adolescents, with contact stopped from my son’s side, when dad returned few years later trying to be best buds. I haven’t been able to get him to talk with me about stuff, he’s had two lovely young women as gf’s, so I’m guessing they hear his laments.
They get where they are going, in their time, not ours. Just like we did. What’s the saying, you can’t put an old head on young shoulders.

48

@4. fubar. Yes, his advice was excellent. I want parenting and dating advice from him all the time. Not just the sex stuff.

@5. CMD. I've never been to Seattle in my life but I loved the local angle.

@9. Harmonica. There are people doing it because it's the 'best' job available to them and people doing it because it's a psychologically congenial job.

@10. Bi. Very sound advice. Cam Girl's Mom's daughter may be a lesbian.

@12. Harmonica. 'It will distort her view of sex and men'?! Her mother's view, that guys jacking off under descending slots is men at their worst, is more likely to distort her view. Harvey Weinstein (apparently) isn't a teensy bit worse? Nor are the Palace jerkers precursors to the supposed 'Weinstein'.

@15. Lava. Sneakers. I'm guessing he wore sneakers into his 30s.

@24. twi_hr. What's at issue is not what the lw feels but what she says. It would be fine to say, 'don't you feel your faith in men is being eroded? Mine was'. What she's apprehensive about saying would be fine to say. But eg 'camming is demeaning' would not.

@36. Lava. Very good point about her mother needing to tone it down. Does her daughter know that her mother worked at the Lusty Lady? Do we have an answer to this?

@41. Dadddy. Why would you be concerned?

49

@47. Lava. Oh, I wasn't crabbing your advice in any way. The mother has to be careful not to shame her daughter--but what she wants to say wouldn't be shaming, as I see it. What if the daughter just thinks moving ahead in life is impossible? That the cards are stacked against her? I'm sure that there will be as many doctors and lawyers, and more bankers and computer scientists, in her generation as in her mother's.

Is the child who's taken himself to therapy the son who deferred college half-way through?

50

Lava @44: Exactly. The only men she's going to scare off are the men who SHOULD be scared off, judgemental two-faced jerks.

Lava @47, wishing the best of luck for your son.

51

@38 vennominon
"Mr Savage gets a pass; if we're ever the last two males on earth, he can be in charge of repopulation."

That sounds like a wonderful premise for a movie. I wonder who would play Dan and venn.

IRL I imagine that the need for genetic diversity would call for both of you to be involved, not to mention means more sophisticated than the natural or even turkey basters.

52

Mr Curious - Eh, another Plantagenet age couldn't do much harm.

53

Harriet- I may be wrong, but I thought when you first joined you mentioned living in Tacoma which is just around the corner.

In any case, The Lusty Lady was located few blocks down from the Pike Place market, a major tourist attraction that also got few seconds of screen fame in Sleepless in Seattle. As I recall there were few other similar establishments in that part of town that seemed shady, yet The Lady always got good press for some reason. It was known as a women’s-owned establishment and as you walked or drove by that busy street you could often see dancers wearing a long jacket or a robe standing outside, smoking and chatting with people.
The Seattle Weekly had a fairly positive cover story at one point and although it did touch briefly on those tiny shiny puddles never made a big deal out of it. Every now and then we heard about a former dancer turned photographer who had a show depicting images from the inside.
There were also some not so flattering former dancers accounts but I don’t think they got that much attention. (LW- if you read this could you please elaborate on YOUR experience?)

The place remained open for a long time despite major renovations in the area and was hailed as “a neighborhood contrast” to the new art museum that opened across the street.

The Lady may have been a west coast chain/franchise, I think I saw one while visiting Berkeley, CA many years ago, located in one of the main streets next to the UC campus.

54

@53: I don't recall a Lusty Lady in Berkeley (though that doesn't mean there wasn't one), I've lived in Berkeley since 1981. But there's one in San Francisco.

55

Of course nocutename is correct. I've lived hereabouts since 1978. At some point I read some history of why there has never been such a place in Berkeley, but all I see now is https://www.kqed.org/news/11033429/why-arent-there-any-strip-clubs-in-the-east-bay

56

It was around 1987-8 and I recall such an establishment just off Ashby or Telegraph. It is possible that my memory fails me and it had a different name.

BTW, is the Homemade café still in business?

57

It's also possible that I'm confusing it with the one in SF.

58

19, 27, Ricardo and BiDan. Thanks. I believe I did misread it, but I also see where the daughter "is making a slim living as a cam girl." As others have noted, something isn't adding up. She has a degree in a marketable field, but she'd be applying for minimum wage jobs. "Slim living" to me = minimum wage.

But that's not why I revisited this letter. I'm not so quick to dismiss Cam Girl's Mom's feelings and why she wouldn't want them for her daughter. She found sex work to be corrosive to her goals of falling in love. She felt herself withdrawing more and more from the possibility of an affectionate relationship with a man. For her, quitting was an act of self-preservation.

I get it that 2 people can do the same thing and have different feelings about it. One person finds waitressing in a diner to be demeaning while another loves the job. I get that ... and yet, I'm not sure I can chalk up the differences between Cam-Daughter and TCG's Mom to 2 different people having 2 different views of the same job. Some of the comments have made it sound like Cam-Daughter has the right attitude while TCG's Mom has the wrong one. I'm not so sure. TCG's Mom has the benefit of knowing the toll this sort of work had on her over the long haul.

I'm rereading Dan's answer and think he has the right idea. Talk to her. Share your experience. Now is the time honesty.

59

@53 the Lusty Lady was also featured in 1993's American Heart (a criminally underrated Jeff Bridges and Edward Furlong joint) as well as in The Midnight Stalker, a cult direct-to-tv movie from the 70s featuring the Seattle Underground prominently. Also the great line, delivered by the police chief: "This isn't Happytown USA - This is Seattle".

@55 it wasn't until this decade (or maybe the 2000s) that PINBALL was finally legalized in the East Bay.

60

Yes, the Homemade Cafe still rocks.

I guess it's possible there was an underground place...but back then I was underground enough I can't believe I wouldn't've heard of it.

Speaking of the SF one, a documentary got made "Live Nude Girls Unite!" (2000) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0264802/ that I've only seen clips of about their 1996 effort to unionize.

61

@59: Well, pinball. Say no more. We all know it's a tool of Imperialiam.

64

This is completely off topic, but I can't think of another place on the internet I can ask this question. When was the last time George Conway got to -- or wanted to -- fuck his wife?

65

@38 vennominon and @51 curious2: I think we should let Dan the Man provide the answer on that one, although I'm pretty sure Dan himself wouldn't want to have to engage in PIV to keep the human species going.

@51 curious2: Turkey basters----yikes! Didja read the one (from the SL Archives, in the late '90s) about the LW who identified herself as a 17 year old lesbian, whose sister is 18. LW's sister's boyfriend wanted to become a father. The 17 year old lesbian's 18 year old sister wasn't ready to have a child, and the 17 year old lesbian declared herself ready to have a child and volunteered to have a baby fethered by her 18 year old sister's BF, ----as long as they didn't have to fuck because she just "absolutely [will] not fuck him". The boyfriend agreed to it as long as he [has] no responsibility, no legal ties, it was all kept secret, and he could still see the baby. The LW's idiotic questions were thus, "...then I could just impregnate myself with his sperm, right? Do turkey basters really work? Is there something else we should try?" Then read Dan's spot on response to "Lezzie-gonna-be-mommie".

And people wonder why I have never had the slightest desire to bear and have children, especially when too many people like Lezzie-gonna-be-mommie are already having kids for the stupidest, most irresponsible rationalizations on Earth.

@47 LavaGirl: All the best for your son's therapy. I hope he can find peace.

I know this is off topic from the present comment thread, but thank you, Dan, for emailing me.

66

By the way......who wants to score this weeks' Lucky @69 Award? Tick..tick...tick....

67

Thank Fan.
Oh he’s a pretty laid back kid, Grizelda, young man I mean. He said his 1st therapy session went well. / of course I want details. None have been forthcoming. I loved therapy. /
He’s got a great life. Works enough to cover his expenses, goes out has fun, his gf has a lovely nuclear family.. no sons... so he’s the token one there. He’s a writer, has been since he was a kid. He reads a lot.. It’s good he is looking to deal with these childhood issues, thru some therapy. And with a man.

68

@67 LavaGirl: You raised your children right. Kudos, big hugs, positrons, and VW beeps.

69

Me!

70

Lava @67, therapy is confidential for a reason. Knowing the therapists I've seen, the first couple of sessions will be all about you ;)

71

Yes Fan, Of course.. I’ll be under the microscope too.

72

Congratulations Fan.. you know the drill. Best wishes. Lots of money and gold coming your way or whatever your heart desires.
I’ve made lots of mistakes Grizelda, as a parent. I try to forget, they keep reminding me.

73

@69 BiDanFan: WA-HOOOOO!!!!! Major congrats, BiDanFan, on scoring this week's Lucky @69 Award! Savor the luscious decadence. I am also glad to see you win it as I won last week somewhat by default (Griz had hideous trolls to smite). :)
@70 & &71 BiDanFan and @72 LavaGirl: Music has always proven to my best source of therapy. Big hugs, positrons, and VW beeps. XOXOXOXO :)

74

@73: Look at that. Another movie night with good, healthy food, ample sources of red wine, and not one typo. Except that I omitted the word be ("Music has always proven to be my best source of therapy"). Griz can't say no to a good Cabernet Sauvignon. :)

75

74 So you do have a drinking problem.
Makes sense.
Stop ignoring it.

76

@75: Fuck off.

77

@75: And YOU have a trolling problem. Fuck off.

78

Drinking problems! My poor daughter has one I’m thinking. This last bout of vomiting half the next day should, one hopes, cure her of same. I keep away from alcohol pretty much, not my drug of choice.
Like a glass of champagne every so often, in my hollow stemmed glasses, so the bubbles keep moving around.

79

@78 LavaGirl: I'm sorry to hear about your daughter. Vomiting after drinking is no fun. Thankfully no drinking problems for me. Because I am gluten intolerant and need to cut way back on sugar, red wine is my one allotted alcoholic beverage. I have O.D.'d on carbs over the holidays and need to bring my sugars back down. But as for wine consumption, I only have glass or two in the evening with dinner and ice water to dilute the alcohol and stay hydrated), about twice a week.

80

Fichu @58, I missed your post, but I think the missing piece of the puzzle is the number of hours worked. Ricardo and Brooklyn nailed it. I've known a few people who've done cam work and it really is only a few hours a day of spare time, so my guess is that she's making a "slim living" by doing this for a couple of hours a day, which she doesn't want to swap for 40 hours at minimum wage. She could make big bucks doing it full time, but as Brooklyn said, it's not something one would want to do, or be able to sustain, for eight hours every day. Perhaps in her copious spare time she's doing other hobbies, or volunteering, building contacts. Perhaps that's the tack TCGM should take when talking to her -- ask her what else she's doing with her time.

Another point is that TCG has only recently started doing this, so I'm not sure why either you or TCGM isn't seeing this as probably being as short-term in the scheme of things as TCGM's stint in the industry. The overwhelming likelihood is that she will, indeed, grow bored/jaded and find something else to do, that suits her better. TCGM would presume a retail job was temporary, right?

And I would think that assuming the worst about -anything- is the wrong attitude, which is why people are challenging TCGM. If TCG comes to find this work as grim as TCGM did, she can quit. What I personally find problematic about TCGM's attitude is her seeming disbelief that her daughter is capable of making up her own mind.

81

Grizelda, it was one of her rare nights out with ‘the girls’. No kids and no partner(s). Lucky she didn’t have to work the next day. Rain about now, some flooding, not near me. What a Summer.
Mr Venn, I’ve started reading the sequel
to “ Call me by your name.” The author is hetero, and this new book starts off with this middle aged guy scoring a woman thirty years younger....such a fantasy.. it’s funny. I’m guessing your views on him might be right.

83

@81 LavaGirl: I can relate to a night out with the girls. It's fortunate your daughter didn't have to go to work the next day. Flooding in Australia now?! At least it's not where you are, and hopefully all those nasty fires are out. Sending big hugs, positrons, and VW beeps.

85

Adios to Jim West - Robert Conrad has died.

86

@63 my sense is that it's not correct. I mentally find camming very hot and the prospect of having a personal connection to the woman more exciting than watching some girl with perfect body and make up execute my deepest fantasies under the auspices of some director. But alas, 95% of my experiencing watching can sites (maybe an hour tops, lifetime) is women staring dumbly at the camera awaiting interaction which I find neither interesting nor Sexy, no matter how attractive the model is. And some have very, very few viewers. The world will not beat off to even the prettiest girl if she's not engaging, charismatic, and well lit.

87

Hunter, of course you’d pick up on it.
I mean in the book, it’s a lame fantasy. They meet on a train, and within two days she’s moving to his place. It’s funny and the dialogue is funnier. Older man’s/ the author/ fantasy.
Yes, Grizelda. I think all the fires are out. So many thousands of acres burnt. And now flooding. Pity the rain didn’t come first. Then a lot of places are not getting it, and are still in drought.
I recognise the name Mr Venn. Can’t place him. I’ll google Robert Conrad. May he RIP.

88

Ms Lava - The Wild Wild West starred Mr Conrad and Ross Martin as Secret Service agents during the Grant administration (circa 1870). They traveled in a private train and prevented a good deal of villainy in new and future states. I only recall their having one frequently recurring adversary, a little person called Dr Miguelito Loveless. Mr Conrad was in rather good shape; when he played a guest killer on Columbo, his character was fitness guru Milo Janus, who literally ran Columbo ragged by inviting him along on his workout.

89

Still thinking about the Cam Girl's mom. I think she should be cautious about using her own example as a life lesson. What she tells her daughter is something that will also be forever - TMI times infinity.

Some commenters have suggested the daughter may be doing other things with her time if she's working a fraction of a full-time job, but we're given only the basic info. So, how about the mom suggesting they have a chat in six months' time, to see how the daughter is faring, what she's doing with her free time, does she no longer have any interest in her field? Does she try to stay in touch with her friends, to socialize in person, to counter the artificial world of relating only to a camera lens? Or is the daughter coasting along aimlessly, with no goals on the horizon?

90

Rest in peace, Robert Conrad.

@87 LavaGirl: Hopefully the drought-ravaged parts of Australia will also see relief soon. Agreed: it's sad that the rainfall wasn't there first, about the all the fire ravaged thousands of acres, loss of lives and property. I am still Googling Australia's Red Cross offices to see about making a donation. It sounds like your region was not as badly impacted. How fortunate.
Sending hugs, positrons, and VW beeps.

91

@46 sounds like a very reasonable approach. (Doesn't mean it's the easiest.) I think most of us would agree that the LW's own experience could be valuable in talking to her daughter about sex work. In fact, it would be invaluable as an "insider" perspective, however much sex work has changed in 20 years, whatever the differences between Lusty Lady and cam work.

Where we seem to disagree is 1) how much the mother is projecting her own stuff and 2) how she should approach the subject with her daughter.

If you handle the approach (#2) well, then it doesn't really matter where the concern (#1) comes from.

Assume your daughter may have different goals than you did at 20, and assume that her experience with sex work may be different from yours. Tell her your experience and tell her that you're worried about her, and ask questions from a spirit of curiosity. You might even approach it from the diplomatic angle of having your daughter inform you. For example, tell her "when I danced at the Lusty Lady, I was often worried about stalkers. How do you handle that issue in cam work?"

Don't expect you're going to talk her out of it. However, you may get her to think about things she hadn't thought about before. At the very least, you can make sure she's worked up some plans to minimize dangers and downsides. One way to think of it: this is just a high-octane version of the sex talk that, hopefully, you had with her when she was younger.