BROKE, Dan’s advice is perfect. Follow it completely! I had a partner with similar issues once who didn’t tell me upfront and I did feel shitty- thinking it was me. He kept just hoping it would be different with his next partner without changing anything. Once we started communicating and I knew this was normal it was terrific! Don’t despair.

SBH~ my guess is that LOVE word may have scared the hell out of your FRIENDwithbenefits, and he’s backing off to avoid the entanglements that come with LOVE. FWB is what he thought you both signed up for...pussy and dick on call without all the sticky obligations. Talk it out and if you can’t move back to friends who fuck (or move on to a more committed status) do like Dan says and find a new boy toy.

All the best, BROKE. Dan and qapla have sound advice.
Kudos, Dan and qapla! :)

@1 qapla: WA-HOOOOOOO!!!!!!!! Major congrats for scoring the "FIRDT" Award and starting us off in Dan's Thrown Bones installment for this week's Savage Love! Savor the glory. :)

@2 DonnyKlicious: I think your Bill the Cat avatar and commenter, Morty's Opus the Penguin avatar should get together. Aack-ooop! :)

Laughed out loud at "Toyota Corolla". Hopefully its hers and not just an Uber.

@5 hexalm: I cringed at "Toyota Corolla", suddenly thinking of an upstairs neighbor's car.

BROKE has only had partnered sex four times? His problem is probably nerves. BROKE, relax. As we advise women in your situation, enjoy the sex and don't worry about coming. If you satisfy your partners completely, they won't mind you finishing off by hand. Perhaps -- with their consent -- onto their boobs or bums or even faces. (Dan, what's this about "put it back in"? Into a mouth perhaps, but not into a vagina, that just seems weird. And awkward with condoms.) You can also show them how to give you handjobs. This is not easy to intuit, particularly if your partner doesn't have the same equipment, so give lots of feedback! Dan is right, don't just keep fucking forever. We will get tired and sore, and if your partners are young they may feel too insecure or awkward to tell you they want the sex to be finished. If you fuck some unlucky woman for ages, don't just assume this is her dream come true -- use your words, ask her if she's tired or wants to keep going, assure her you're happy to get yourself off and don't require her to lie back and think of England indefinitely. Also, don't underestimate what a turn-on it can be to watch one's partner ejaculate. She may find it hotter to watch you come while rubbing her own clit than be subjected to "victory pumps," which sound cringeworthy and difficult to orchestrate. Perhaps you can add those to your repertoire later, when you get more comfortable with partnered sex. The best sex I ever had was with a man who could only come from handjobs, so all is not lost, BROKE.

SBH: "How do I make him see how much I need him" -- yikes. SBH, this fling is over. Move on.

FWB's are supposed to get mutual benefits, when that ends, it's time to find a new one.

Donny @2, except that they said the L word very soon (post-coitally, if I were to guess), they've been seeing each other for two years, and they stopped banging in September. So the FWB-ship lasted about a year and a half after the utterance of the cursed word. My guess is that the completely normal phenomenon of NRE wearing off about a year and a half in happened -- for him, but not for her. So she should cut ties, get over him and find someone else.

@7/BiDanFan hit a few important points that came to my mind. BROKE has only had sex four times. At the extremes, his lifetime experience amounts to sex four times with one woman, or sex one time with four different women. There are some commenters who have had that experience in one night.

So yes to relaxing and enjoying partnered sex, whether or not he is climaxing. If his mind is processing whether or not he will orgasm, he is not focusing on the pleasurable sensations. BROKE's lack of experience may hamper him in another way, if he is not comfortable maneuvering his partner into a variety of positions. Orgasms are in part, muscular contractions, some positions may led to muscle tension in him which inhibit his having an orgasm. Some positions may work particularly well for BROKE, even if there is no "magic" position which works all the time. BROKE should experiment with his position and how he holds his partner, as well as the position of his partner, including the position of her legs and the rotation of her hips.

Also if BROKE is a generous lover, and his partner has orgasmed once or more, he shouldn't hesitate to focus on his pleasure and have sex in a position and tempo that work for him. Just the caveat that the position and tempo shouldn't be unpleasant for his partner.

In exploring various positions, BROKE can lift his partner's legs up to rest against his body, then pull out of his partner's vagina, so that his shaft is pressed lengthwise along her labia. He can then rock his hips to rub his cock across her labia and clitoris. If he leans forward, he can use his body to increase the pressure. For him, it might provide adequate pressure to reach orgasm inevitability, while still being "no hands." For her, nice pressure against her clitoris. I also feel this works much better then trying to jerk off while using a condom.

"How do I make him see how much I need him without issuing ultimatums?"

Regardless of what you need from him, you are only going to get what he wants to give. And he seems unwilling to give more than some words of love and willingness to put his dick in your mouth. If you're not happy with what you're getting, why are you staying with him? Don't you think you can meet someone you're attracted to who wants to give as much as you do? Like oral sex, intercourse, and primary partner status? Are you depressed, do you need help to notice cute guys and talk to them, maybe therapy or codependent anonymous meetings?

BROKE.. What is broken? You want to come during piv, Dans advice should work. If you want to maximize your own and your partner's pleasure, then suggest or initiate lots of different ways for each to get off, and make sure to establish how much she likes each activity until y'all get to know how each other's bodies and minds work pretty well and have found a couple awesome moves that work for you both. Then.. don't rest on your laurels and fall into a rut, which may be tougher. Also don't take it personally when things that feel good to one of you feel bad to the other, just try to stay away from things that make her feel bad and break up if you don't feel happy with what you have in common to keep trying for mutual pleasure. If you yearn for more or feel badgered by her needs so that you start to demand or feel that she doesn't respect your consent, you may start to act controlling or victimized. You can't have a healthy relationship if you're more focused on getting what you want or avoiding what she wants, in a healthy relationship both feel pretty lucky or happy with what they get, not needy or victimized. Realistic expectations are key.

BROKE: I agree that investing in a FleshLight with the texture and opening of your choice and a good water-based lube like Astroglide would be a good start to retraining your dick (and your brain) to a different feel that will get you to orgasm. Another suggestion that can make a big difference: buy an ANEROS prostate simulator such as the Progasm Jr. Use it with the Astroglide and if you're not used to ass play, take it slow. A lot of straight guys buy these (or a good butt plug) and find it can enhance either masturbation or actual PIV sex. Wearing one and using the Fleshlight can be a mind-blowing experience. I've had problem with orgasm and the This combination, I actually have to slow down or will pop in no time!

Bi @7: "Dan is right, don't just keep fucking forever. We will get tired and sore, and if your partners are young they may feel too insecure or awkward to tell you they want the sex to be finished."

YES, THIS. Thank you, Bi!

I don't really know where men got the idea that lasting forever is some godsend. I do enjoy sex to continue for some time (although friendly quickies are also great)...but only if it's not PIV the whole time. Mix it up. Continuous PIV, for fifteen minutes or more, say, can start chafing or cause muscle ache, especially if you stay in the same few positions, and for me it's not a good thing. I have run into a few guys (mostly young) who seem to think endless stamina and pumping w/o coming is proof that they're great in bed. No, sorry, not the case.

I enjoy hours-long sexual evenings as much as the next person (I think!) but please, let it be a smorgasbord of activities, of which PIV is not more than 50%. Also, many men have a reasonably short refractory period, and can come when they want, lie around smooching and talking a bit, and go again in a short while. Not coming is a bad goal, I think, unless it really knocks you out to come.

As for the LW, I personally love to watch a guy finish himself off, and am happy to assist with some kissing, ball-sucking, mutual masturbation if he's into the visual, whatever. Sometimes it's nice to have someone come inside you, but it's certainly not critical, and 0/4 is by no means a terminal statistic. Get comfy and happy with sex first, and then later you can work on changing your habits if you still want to.

I like the comprehensive, thoughtful response to LW1 as I was also a late bloomer in terms ofhaving partnered sex and coming in another person’s orifice or hands. (And a flashback just resurfaced that I did shed some tears of joy and relief when I first did.)
Big part of my anxiety back then, some 40 years ago, was the notion that the male is supposed to lead an OS encounter, the only option on the menu back when and where I grew up, and should also be the knowledgeable one. Otherwise it may result in ridicule and rumors and huge embarrassment, as my thinking went back then. Because of all that I was reluctant to follow the cues I got from supposedly experienced women and gravitated towards the assumed less so.

I hope things are a little better nowadays for youngsters in terms of accommodation, education and equal opportunities.

I would add that big part of masturbation of any kind is that you are the only one who’s calling the shots, not intended. It is all in your hands, of course intended, and you control each and every detail like timing, grip, rhythm, synchronization of mind and body.
Some things that helped me transitioning to coming in/by others were building up momentum, i.e. not ejaculating for a day or two or more before the encounter, enhancing sensitivity and performance as a result. Another thing is identifying what works for you and not shying away from communicating it. I personally like my testicles cupped before, during, and after ejaculations. To this day it can still be challenging for me to reach orgasm if that part is missing.
Also don’t be shy to lead your partner by the hand. Place their hands on you and guide theirs with yours, walking them through the what and how. As BDF @ 7 indicates this can also be fun and useful knowledge for your partner as well.

BIDan@9~ “... the FWB-ship lasted about a year and a half after the utterance of the cursed word...”
I think your analysis of NRE burnout is mostly correct, or boyfriend may never have been feelin’ it, at least not as much as LW. I once had a GF that I liked well enough and she kept pressuring me, “Why can’t you just say it?” And, I have to admit, after 3 or 4 months it did feel awkward to be fucking and not saying “I love you too” so I took the easy route and used the words, even though I wasn’t really feeling the “love” so much as “well, this is really nice but something is missing, and we DO seem to fight a lot”. That lasted a little more than a year too before “really nice” wasn’t enough any more.

@13 ciods
"I don't really know where men got the idea that lasting forever is some godsend."

What an interesting question.

(A story I've told before)
In middle school, the first little geek who began having sex told everyone within the sound of his voice that he fucked his GF for some huge number of hours. Though still a virgin, I privately told him this sounded ridiculous. No guy would I explained even /want/ to have just one ejaculation in 10 (or whatever his claim was) consecutive hours of PIV. (Hmm, I guess this was my first sex-advice at like twelve or something; so next year I'll have been giving sex-advice for a half-century.)

A bit of the crazy idea in the general male population might simply be that it's the inverse of (as I've also gone into before) what's by far the most common male sexual issue, which is coming in less than a minute, usually immediately upon penetration if not before (aka premature ejaculation, which as I've repeatedly posted links to means in less than a minute).

It probably doesn't help (in perpetuating the crazy idea) that some women like an extended session. I know because I've been happy to accommodate this choice of theirs. No shortage of times it was maybe an hour, probably never more than an hour and a quarter. Oh, I'm not saying I minded a bit, I liked every minute of it, but quite a bit less of it would have been less work and equally satisfying.

Great tips, Sublime, CMD and JonBalz. Sublime, I want to try the suggestion in your last paragraph!

Curious @16, I agree it must be partly due to hearing women complain about premature ejaculation and incorrectly concluding the optimal length of time for PIV is "as long as possible," and partly with men confusing "sex" with "PIV." When women say we want sex to last a long time, we mean we want to have a lot of sex before he sticks his dick in! Women are partly to blame too by continuing to pretend to enjoy PIV, so as not to hurt his feelings, while secretly praying to Aphrodite for him to hurry up and come already. I was certainly guilty of this when younger. The worst thing was to leave a guy blue-balled, so you just had to let him fuck you until he came. Only when I was much older and wiser did I learn that using my words was a far better approach to too much stamina than dropped hints in the form of a succession of less and less sincere orgasms.

Not sure Curious, @16, that less than a minute is what is meant by premature ejeculation. Less than five minutes, maybe six or eight. Less than one minute is super premature ejaculation.
Agree that Dan has got it wrong thinking most women enjoy long bouts of PiV sex. The vagina is a very sensitive part of a woman’s body and it starts to hurt if PiV goes on too long and it continues to hurt after the sex is finished.

No word for those of us who gew up masturbating prone on our stomachs using a gopher hole (though nowdays anyone who has seen "Caddyshack" should be aware of the potential pitfalls of that approach).

I think I shall try replacing OS with DS, at least on trial. Yea? Nay?

Now I'm imagining DS encounters (perhaps a few SS as well, though I suspect this is more likely a DS phenomenon) going on vastly too long in which both parties are bored to distraction, but each fears being shamed by the other if they don't keep at it all night and day.

I am also reminded of Persuasion and the visit to Lyme, where the Musgrove party and Mr Elliot (Anne's and Mary's cousin) stayed overnight at the same inn. On being formally introduced to Anne later in Bath, Mr Elliot told her how he'd heard voices throughout the evening and thought them likely a delightful party, without having the smallest notion of his having any right to introduce himself. "Well, it would serve to cure him of an absurd practice of never asking a question at an inn, which he had adopted, when quite a young man, on the grounds of its being very ungenteel to be curious."

"The notions of a young man of one or two and twenty," said he, "as to what is necessary in manners to make him quite the thing, are more absurd, I believe, than those of any other set of beings in the world. The folly of the means they often employ is only to be equaled by the folly of what they have in view."

Lava @19, less than a minute is indeed the clinical definition of premature ejaculation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premature_ejaculation
Six to eight minutes -- or four to eight, according to the same link -- is typical. I'm not sure there is a term for when he simply doesn't last long enough for her to come. Perhaps the term for that is "heterosexuality." Just kidding. I do think that many of us have the impression that penetrative sex lasts longer than it actually does. Just think of how many songs have played from penetration to finish, it's generally not a full album is it? But this may shed light on why many women don't come from intercourse -- perhaps many of them would be able to come with 15 minutes of intercourse, but they rarely have a partner who lasts that long. Interesting to ponder.

Venn @21, there's that word shamed again. I would rephrase your hypothetical DS (different sexes, one presumes) situation as both partners keep going past the point of boredom because each fears they will disappoint the other. And yes, I bet this is a laughably common occurrence!

@22 BiDanFan
Oops I see she beat me to it but having already typed it in Notepad I'll go ahead with:

@19 LavaGirl
"Not sure Curious, @16, that less than a minute is what is meant by premature ejeculation."

Allow me to post this again:

"Premature ejaculation (PE) occurs when a man experiences orgasm and expels semen within a few moments of beginning sexual activity and with minimal penile stimulation....There is no uniform cut-off defining "premature", but a consensus of experts at the International Society for Sexual Medicine endorsed a definition of around one minute after penetration. The International Classification of Diseases (ICD-10) applies a cut-off of 15 seconds from the beginning of sexual intercourse.

...Men's typical ejaculatory latency is approximately 4–8 minutes."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premature_ejaculation

Venn @21 and BDF @23,

Yeah. I'm pretty much sure I lived that laughably common incident in one of my earliest sexual encounters. I pounded away at that poor woman for hours and hours. She was a good deal more sexually experienced, comfortable, and confident than me though, so I'm pretty sure she just would have told me to stop if it was getting really tedious for her.

Maybe a little later with a different woman I did something similar, but that time I wasn't trying to impress her. I was too drunk to come and was trying really, really hard (and really, really selfishly) to get myself off. Up until the next morning, I thought blue balls were something men made up to pressure women into sex. Factoid: They're sometimes real.

I could barely walk the next morning and my usual means of getting to class (my bike) was totally out of the question. Whanking did start the recovery, but the weird thing was that for quite a while after that (many months) I got blue balls pretty easily and frequently if I got aroused without release. That hadn't happened to me previously, so I guess there's some injury involved.

Poor, stupid early 20s me... I'm sorry for the poor women who had to suffer through my long learning curve.

My definitions obviously vary from others, curious. You had to have been there. Under five minutes was premature enough for me.

@24 p.s.
Regarding that text from that wiki that I posted for at least the third time in recent months.

I was ticked off the previous times; I posted it in response to people (perhaps including LavaGirl) commenting that PE is not a problem because women don't want to be banged away at forever.

Given that we're all amateur sex-advice givers, and given that PE is the most common sexual problem of penis-havers, I felt that as a penis-haver I had provided a service in proving to those saying otherwise that the problem called PE is in fact a problem.

Because obviously no one who wants PIV wants just "a few moments" of it.

@15 DonnyKlicious: I think I can relate to your former GF. The only sexual relationships I was in had absolutely no love whatsoever. The first sexual encounter in which I lost my virginity to a man two years and five days my senior meant nothing to him. I found out later that it was just a bet between two college buddies (one of whom was a high school classmate of mine). I thought there was something there (he wanted sex--with ME??--like there was a spark--and he saw an attraction? Yeah--only for one night. And i'm pretty sure it was only for the money). Have you ever seen the 1986 Rob Lowe / Demi Moore film, "About Last Night...?" Similar premise---I tried to make a loving, caring LTR out of a one night stand, believing that there was really something there. All I was was just another conquest.
The second sexual encounter--for a total of twelve years too long, the last nine years unhappily married--well, you and everyone else knows about him.

I know better than to go desperately looking for something that clearly doesn't exist. But what to do about set ups or fraternity bets one is unaware of, and blind dates arranged by abused former fiancees hoping to divert the negative attention of their anger prone manipulators on to someone else while everyone else protects her and couldn't care less about the "new girl in Supply Division"? In both cases I was cruelly misled, and the latter case isolated and trapped.
I hear people telling me--'Only TWO? You fall off a horse, you get back on.' I can't when there is no evidence of love, affection, respect, and acceptance.

On a lighter note........
@20 DonnyKlicious: I remember Caddyshack. Bill Murray suffered plenty as comically inept groundskeeper, Carl Speckler when lying prone he inserted his hand and arm, down inside the gopher hole ("Come to Carl....come to Carl...."). Mr. Gopher of course, bit Carl's hand. And thus war was declared on the Bushwood Country Club golf course.

I'm all right....don't nobody worry 'bout me.....why d'ya have to give me a fight?
Why don't you just let me be?....
Good old Kenny Loggins, born in Everett, Washington--and the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band,
whose killer soundtracks include Caddyshack and Top Gun, among others.

No, I didn’t tick you off for posting this link another time, curious. Time is tricky when passions are aroused.

@17 BiDanFan: BRAVO!!!! Agreed and seconded. And during my sexually active years, I, too, was guilty as charged about engaging in PIV to please my partner, while secretly hoping that any physical discomfort I was feeling would magically go away--or if I appeared to enjoy intercourse at all because he was into it. I feel sorry for my ex's later two wives. They must really be suffering after all the times I have faked orgasm or pleasure of any kind.
I would be infinitely happier with hugs, cuddles, kisses, and few kind words of love and encouragement over PIV now, as I was before becoming sexually active in my early 20s. Maybe if my past sexual experiences hadn't been so heartbreaking, disappointing, or traumatic, I can't help but wonder what the sexual outcome of my life could have been.

LW2; This man has walked. Put your chin up, thank him for spending time with you, and walk away. He is telling you he’s done having sex with you. Words like love often crop up around sex, so he’s realised he’s got himself in a bit of a jam and has closed you down. Maybe his feelings are confusing to him, you’ll never know.
Take the hint before he has to Spell It Out To You, because he does want to keep you as a friend, and if you have a difficult scene over ending this arrangement, your friendship could be lost. More FWB’s out there. Maybe even look for a man who wants a relationship?
LW1: You are twenty years old, of course you’re not broken. Having sex with others is a learning curve, and it’s good you’ve come here to learn.
Good advice has been given already, and we’ve got a few days to load you with more.
Focus on the woman’s pleasure, learn about a woman’s pleasure. Not from porn, from the living woman in front of you.

@28 DonnyKlicious: To clarify, I don't mean that in your past relationship with your now ex-GF that you weren't loving. It sounds like she would have liked to have heard "I love you, too" more often, as I would have with my ex. Thus the similarity.

Bless you, Dan the Man. I think you nailed the root of my problem when you once said, in your autographed book, Savage Love (c.1998): "Whose brilliant idea was it to wire heterosexual men and women to be sexually incompatible?" My ex-husband had initially said such sweet things when he and I first met, promising love when he really was looking for sex instead. I slept with him by the fifth date, offering sex to get love. He made an issue as to why I didn't sleep with him when we first met. His wanting us to get married after being together for less than a month should have been a major red flag. And there I was, isolated and so many miles away from family and loved ones once his Prince Charming mask came off, with nobody at my back until years later.
I am still asking myself today, where is the love? What made me such an easy target for such unprovoked abuse then? Just because I was a female in a predominantly male environment that intensified during war time? Was it because toxic masculinity was so rampant where I was stationed? At any rate, I'd far rather remain otherwise happily asexual and single than unhappily and unhealthily coupled.

Please, everyone, forgive me. I had no coffee today, and yet I'm a total chatterbug.

Okay. Griz is now switching to red wine.
Good night all, hugs, positrons, and VW beeps.

Donny @15, it's said that among the world's greatest lies are "the cheque is in the mail," "I'm on my way" and "I love you too."

DCP @25: "I'm pretty sure she just would have told me to stop if it was getting really tedious for her." I highly doubt it. Painful, yes probably; simply tedious, as she was socialised female she likely thought your orgasm was more important than her boredom.
"Poor, stupid early 20s me." I hear ya!

Lava @26: "My definitions obviously vary from others, curious." OK Harriet. "I like PIV to last a long time" is a different thing from labelling the average length of ejaculation premature.

Curious @27, yes, I think the word "shamed" might even be appropriate here. I hope we are moving toward a world where women who like longer lasting PIV than a partner can provide feel confident enough to pull out a strap-on so that the man can continue. As for "no one likes a premature ejaculation," I've at times been warmed up enough to come within that first minute too. Good advice remains for the penis haver to ensure the clit haver has come before penetration occurs, so that any orgasm during penetration is a bonus.

Griz @28, I'm so sorry that your first sexual experience was humiliating. There is a special place in purgatory for the assholes who subjected you to that.

Lava @31, good point that BROKE should not use porn as a how-to manual. If his partner(s) are similarly inexperienced, perhaps they could google educational porn and try some things together?

Lava @26, I agree it is good manners for a guy to try to delay his orgasm until after his partner is satisfied. Sex that leaves one frustrated is disappointing, whether one has balls to go blue or not.

How bout Fan,@36 I just retire from commenting at all and you write my comments for me?
I’m not up on the science lit about what the average man’s abilities are. Lasting a solid ten minutes, plus, with position changes, seems a reasonable target to me.
Alologies to any average man I might have offended.

Though now curious has posted the medical lit, I am up to date. Same response. A man coming, in under one minute, sounds like super PE, to me.
I am allowed my own experiences, yeah. And we not talking every sexual experience, because some are quick re PiV activity and that can suit both parties. Versatility and response to each other is what counts in any dynamic sexual pairing.
If a man consistently comes in a short time, say under four minutes, /concession to the average man,/ no versatility, then I don’t give a toss what the medical lit says, it’s premature.

Lava, Curious and I both posted the same link to the medical definition of premature ejaculation. Curious described well why "typical guy" shouldn't be conflated with men who have an unfortunate medical condition. Perhaps you are just describing the difference between a good lover and an average one.

How did we get onto PE anyway? Neither questions involve it.
Sorry LW1, easy to get sidetracked around here. Dan has given you good penis haver advice. Least I hope it’s good. His info on those of us with vaginas is a little sketchy.
Sex is often about performance, more so when one is young and not too sure how all this goes. When you’re with a woman, be there, with her, not in your head.

@36 BiDanFan
"I've at times been warmed up enough to come within that first minute too"

Well perhaps that could work then, except it's most commonly (now re-quoting that wiki) "within a few moments" (after which thrusting wouldn't typically continue for very long); couldn't it be sub-optimal for the vagina-haver too for just a couple seconds of thrusting even when she's also ready to cum?

@40 BiDanFan
Yes, PE is a medical term, and while "premature" is a word in the English language, it has a special meaning in that medical term. And since it's a medical term for the most common male sexual problem, here in sex-advice-land communication would be aided by using the term properly.

I totally get that some /number/ of minutes above one could still not typically be as long as desired by either party, could be seen as coming too soon, thus would in the standard English definition of the word be "premature".

But, as I explained @27, I think using the term improperly caused a problem here a few months back, when vagina-havers looking at the situation from the perspective of not waiting "to be banged away at forever" dismissed the term PE as not being a problem because they didn't use the medical term properly.

I'm embarrassed to say I don't even know what the most common sexual problem that women have is; not only would I like to know, but I absolutely would avoid communicating in a way that dismissed it as not a problem.

@43 cockyballsup
Hey an hour might still be the avererge, just not to either PIV partner's preference.
(As some have mentioned, it's kinda difficult to know how long one goes; but I have at times noticed.)

I'm surprised that /any/ orifice wants 4 hours! (And a penis can get sore too.)

Speaking for my penis, as I said I'd rather cum multiple times during 4 hours [with intervening refractory periods] than just once. Or does a penis-haver get off on a 4-hour session as a feat of performance? Sheesh, 4 hours? I coulda done that but I wouldn't've wanted to (now that I'm old I don't think 4 hours remains an option; though I could still do 2).

BDF @ 36 - "it's said that among the world's greatest lies are 'the cheque is in the mail,' 'I'm on my way' and 'I love you too.'"

You forgot "I won't come inside your (mouth/vagina/ass/etc.)"

cbu @43, why surprised? The clit and vagina are sensitive, so yes, too much of a good thing can turn painful. An hour of PiV would not be enjoyable, for me.
Talking of the clit LW1, gently does it when caressing here. Rub thru cloth to start, her knickers say. Arousing the woman thru indirect contact. When you move on to directly touching the clit.. which may not be all women’s preference so check her responses here, is she enjoying this... don’t rub like you’re shining a car, or sanding some wood. To me a man’s skill and sensitivity with his fingers and and his tongue are most important. Again, keep checking in with the woman, stay connected to how she is responding. If she’s young and inexperienced like you, using your words to see if she is enjoying herself and not doing the pretend game, might give both of you room to talk truth. Just casual like, ‘ are you enjoying this.’ Not every minute or the like, asking her, cause then it gets annoying.
Trust your ability to gel with another’s body, and this, like all experiences, can get better with practice, if you stay responsive to her. And she to you. A woman likes her breasts fondled and nipples sucked, again, not roughly because they too are sensitive areas. All this crash bang shown in porn may be fun every now and again, it’s really not the sex that will arouse a woman if you try it every time.
Re your issues, as others above have said, before you get naked together, talk with the woman about it. So she won’t take it personally if you don’t come from PiV sex, yet.
If you’re getting with women your age who mostly like you are still learning, it’s ok to fumble along together if both of you stay real. Perhaps finding an older woman as a lover might help because she has developed her skills and confidence around sex. Presumably. I learnt a lot about my body, how to have an orgasm during PiV sex, from an older lover.

@36 BiDanFan: Thank you for your kind words. The only consolation I got from my first sexual encounter was that I contacted the guy I had lost my virginity to back in 1987, later in the spring of 1989 about getting together again. I had just volunteered to enlist in the U.S. Navy, was about to ship out to basic training in Orlando, Florida, and wanted to know from him if there was really anything at all between us. He had since moved from Seattle to Eastern Washington, yet was willing to drive all the way back out to rural Skagit Valley (70 miles north of Seattle) where I grew up and lived at the time. He came to the house I was renting from my grandmother. We got as far as stripping down in the master bedroom before he suddenly burst into tears, saying he "just couldn't go through with it".
I haven't seen or come into physical contact with either him or my ex-spouse since my divorce meeting with my lawyer---eighteen years and four months ago, although my ex has tried to phone and reach me online a few times since. I haven't responded, knowing better not to.

Griz @28 @49: those are terrible, horrible experiences, and my heart goes out to you. People, including many men, can be such assholes. Sex doesn't seem to bring out the best in many of us.
I used to regularly drive between Vancouver and Redmond, and would always stop at Skagit Harley Davidson to covet the motorbikes. I still have a Skagit Harley t-shirt featuring Scooby Doo.

Hugs to you Grizelda.
Yes, cbu, I think circumcision is the way most baby boys are still treated here. My sons aren’t cut, then I’m an ex hippy of sorts, never gave up electricity and running water.
The clit and vagina have ten million nerve endings running round and thru them. I do exacurate, there’s many is what I remember. I should know more, yes, given that all sorts of weird and wonderful and painful experiences have originated from that area of my body. Maybe Muse or someone will jump on giving us the right info.
Good point Hachacha @48. Re women getting angry, which is a strange response.
Take it as it comes, is what you saying to this young man? Only way hey, because any tension around/ during sex changes the experience, so best to be upfront and confident.

I vote Starirway To Heaven the best song ever. Now there’s a song to fuck to.

Oh to be young again. And that’s what you have LW1, youth. With that comes energy. Don’t waste it on feeling so negative about yourself. You’d seen the problem before you even wrote the letter to Dan. Good for writing in, asking for an older man’s guidance.

Correction; seen the origin of the problem..

I didn’t want to bring up circumcision but since someone else has, I think this may be the cause of a lot (maybe, all?) of the issues we’re seeing from letter writers and from those of us sharing our stories in the comments. It’s there for a very good reason.

Lava @41, the question of why men think lasting for ages is a good thing, and "fear of being shamed for premature ejaculation" was one suggested answer (by Curious). Unless that was a rhetorical question, in which case, moving on...

Curious @42, oh it's definitely sub-optimal regardless, because if I come that quickly I can almost definitely come again! And the occasions where immediate orgasm happens, even for me, are very rare. Though I knew a woman once who did come that quickly, I've mentioned here on these boards before. My whole point, for any man who does suffer from this problem and may be reading, is that while unfortunate it doesn't necessarily mean he is doomed to lifelong singleness. He should work on this problem, but at the same time he should not beat himself up because (extended, or any) PIV is not the be-all and end-all for every straight/bi woman.

I reckon the most common female sexual problem would be the opposite of the most common male one: being unable to come with a partner.

Cocky @43: Wow! That is a huge difference. I remember a few weeks back, a reluctant top said he could only top for 5-10 minutes and all the women were like "and that's a problem how?" No wonder chemsex is a thing in the gay world. Hmm, perhaps one difference is that women can have several orgasms, and (ideally) have come before penetration even occurs, so have less far to go before they themselves are satisfied? Once you've come, you don't want the sex to continue for another hour or several, correct?

Curious @44, I can't imagine the scheduling that would have to take place for four hours of sex, plus a night's sleep! ;)

Cocky @46, ah, I see! This discussion is not about duration of sex, but duration of PIV. Sure, lots of us would prefer for sexytimes to last an hour or more, but we do not want a penis in our vagina for an hour or more. See Ciods @13. Glad we are closer to the same page now.

Hachacha @48, perhaps it's your timing? Are you telling this to women before you even go to bed? If you tell them, "I'm not going to come" as a foregone conclusion, even if it's true, it may come across as dismissive. Why not tell them this after they've come a couple of times? They may be far more receptive to the idea that sex is now done, even though you haven't come, when they have. (Obligatory straight people are weird comment. Try dating bi women perhaps?)
Also, you can definitely have maintenance sex with FWBs; that would be better than nothing. But perhaps you're right that after maintenance sex with his girlfriend and new-relationship-star-performance sex with the new FWB, he has nothing left to give her. Doesn't explain why he's not at least going down on her. Dude's not into her, she needs to move on.

Combining Cocky's and Hachacha's observations, it seems the difference may not be between DS sex and SS sex but between casual sex and long-term-relationship sex. If the sex you're having is with hookups, it makes sense that you're more likely to be having marathon sessions because you're trying to impress each other. Whereas once you fall into a relationship, you realise that, like Curious @16 notes, good sex can still be had in a lot less time with a lot less work. Cocky, you refer to average hookup sex (in total, not a PIA marathon) being an hour in duration; would you say that average relationship sex is shorter in duration, as it is with typical DS relationship sex? (I find that, being happily long-term poly, when I do have a new partner I find myself unimpressed with the idea that we have to keep going and going!) Kink versus vanilla is a factor too, with kinky sex lasting orders of magnitude longer than vanilla, and perhaps not involving any PIV/PIA at all.

Hachacha @48, yes. You're telling them this "before a hookup." Before a hookup. There's no need for that level of TMI. I'd find it a bit jarring, too. It's not as if that's a common potential dealbreaker that needs to be disclosed before you go to bed. I'd change my tack to, hook up with them, get into bed, have some great sex, then tell them that it's not them, but you find it difficult to come with a new partner, and you've enjoyed yourself immensely. I'd be willing to bet far less than 100% of women would be upset.

I'd look at this the other way around and concentrate less on a set Ideal Time than on increasing one's window.

Good to see DS, Ms Fan.

@58 BiDanFan
LOL, scheduling indeed. Cocky's post also reminded me that I've seen Dan bring up a few times when this topic of very long sessions came up something along the lines of being busy/having other shit to do.

But really, once Cocky clarified that he didn't mean 4 hours continuous per orgasm, but included refractory periods, it didn't sound particularly uncommon to me. Once upon a time I had time for that.

/Break/
I just want to interject that while orgasms feel great, the time leading up is also extremely pleasurable (just orders of magnitude less so). So my reaction to some fraction of an hour of the later is 'yes please'.

During the session, I'm also curious how many don't vary anything. For example speed, syncopation, three-dimensional hip movement. How common is it that they're an unvarying linear fucking machine?

@AuntieGrizelda: You survived, you're stronger, and you're better for it. No reason happiness can't be in the future for you.

@43 Weird assumptions you have about the female anatomy. No, an hour of being pounded is not fun for a woman’s vagina (and also pretty boring for her).
@47 The gay sex columnist over at Slate also has this idea that a man lasting forever is something women want. You’d think professionals sex writers like Dan would try to understand a woman’s point of view about what feels good, but nope.

Yes JodoKast @57, it is there for a very good reason, and though one can’t equate circumcision to what some cultures do to a female child, it’s still a gross violation. Losing the sensitivity the sheaf gives, must influence a man’s whole life. I wonder how much it has to do with some male rage. Best to grieve the injustice and not do it to one’s sons.

Escapee @65, then these gay men are not alone.
How many men really understand the sensitivity yet power and strength of a woman’s genitals. I think I stayed with my husband way past our marriage’s used by date because he was a tender lover. Crazy fuck in other ways.

Lava @ 67
Sensitivity or lack of aside, one theory about circumcision claims that the whole idea was to make the male infants angry right from the get go, ensuring they will come better warriors as they grow up.

Ooooo. I just saw CMD having 69, and now I cant unsee it!

@70 Donny
I'm so happy we saw CMD having 69 with the old avatar instead of the temporary one. Because now I can't unsee those pair of chicken heads coming out of a torso.

@54 LavaGirl: Agreed and seconded. Sad, though, that lead vocalist, Robert Plant actually hates one of Led Zeppelin's biggest hits, Stairway to Heaven so much (I guess, because so many fans want to hear it and he's tired of it?).
@64: Nobody deserves to go what I went through, regardless of how I may have "strengthened" from the experience. Get yourself unfairly subjected to abuse---sexually, physically, emotionally, and psychologically---and then we'll talk.
@69 CMDwannabe: WA-HOOOOOO!!!!! All chicken cutlets aside, Major congrats on scoring this week's Lucky @69 Award! Bask in the glowing radiance. I'm also glad to see your original avatar is back. :)
@70 DonnyKlicious & @72 curious2: LOL!! Thank you both for the laugh-out-loud comments. I needed a good chuckle. :)

@52 fubar: Thank you, too, and bless you for your kind words. I know of the Harley Davidson shop you're referring to. My beloved VW and I enjoy passing through Skagit Valley in the warm weather months.

Mr Hunter - Roll a die. Actually, DG will likely prove even more useful in the long run.

Ms Lava - I suppose many advice columnists draw on their mail. As for the rest, no malice but it's Holmes/Sun/Earth, as many aspects of gay life are for you.

Donny, I hope I didn't piss you off or make you feel uncomfortable in my comment @28.

Dan the Man: I know you're not into hugs. How about a cyber high five instead?

Griz@76~ Honest opinions (even ones that I don’t agree with) don’t piss me off, and actually even some of the idiots that spout drivel here on occasion will, at best, cause me momentary annoyance. This is all just peoples’ opinions, and just like assholes, we’ve all got ‘em. That said, over the years I have grown fond of reading a handful of the regulars, and even though I don’t usually hold forth at length or have much to contribute beyond humorous sniping, every now and then I feel like I can scrape together a salient point or two.

@77 DonnyKlicious: Thank you for responding, and bless you. I went off on a tangent, though. Please forgive me. I guess the "lack of love" part set off a PTSD trigger. I have been rather emotional, lately, and am making a conscientious effort to treat Slog as more of a "read only" section of The Stranger. Ongoing VA therapy and red wine helps.
Big hugs, positrons, VW beeps, and an "Aack-ooop!" to you and Mr. Bill.

Yes Mr Venn, I do admire Dan’s attempts at empathising. He knows he’ll be pulled up if he gets it wrong and he has been.
True, gay culture is so unknown or rather hand over mouth really response, for me. It is fascinating, seeing how men without women close in seem to behave. I only hear snippets, I’m sure there’s gay hang outs down the coast, I’ve never felt to go watch. So a sort of f*ghag lite.
Gay men are straight talking with women, generally. At least here they are. No hidden motives or the instant dance heteros can start unconsciously playing with each other.

Big Hunsky, anyone?

LW2, Why are you blowing him from time to time? That is not an equal FWB situation, c’mon.
/ I heard this is a more general gift young girls are giving out. Blow Jobs and no reciprocation.
Seems very servile. This Smashing The Patriarchy is taking longer than we thought. It keeps growing tentacles from new directions.

@81 LavaGirl: I know, right? Blow jobs and PIV, to me, sound like a suicide wishes anymore.

Hachacha @71, ok. I was picturing "before a hookup" as "over dinner." How about taking my suggestion of telling them sometime between their first orgasm and when you're ready for the sex to end, and seeing if you get different results? If you didn't have this issue yourself, surely you can see how it might come across as a bit insulting for a partner to say "I'm going to have sex with you now, but I'm not going to come." In other words, don't get upset that you "have to" tell them before you have sex, because you DON'T have to tell them before you have sex. That's your rule, not anyone else's. Put on the condom, have the sex, when they're satisfied and you sense they expect you to come now, that's when you tell them it won't be happening. I've had partners of both genders tell me, during sex, that they have issues with coming, and that's fine because they've obviously been enjoying themselves regardless, but no one has ever told me before. This may be why you are getting the reactions you are getting. Bad timing, not bad partners.

@48 Hachacha
"Women just need to get it out of their head that that their entitled to make me cum, that cumming or not is a referendum on their abilities/attractiveness, etc. Get over yourselves, please."

Ya know, we hear the exact same thing more about men's attitude than about women's.

@84 Hachacha
"hey so it's been 40 minutes it doesn't always happen for me just FYI"

BiDanFan didn't say to wait 40 minutes (which I'm hearing is usually past the point a woman wishes it had long since stopped), she said@83 to wait until she's satisfied etc.

@83 BiDanFan
Never having had difficulty cumming, I hadn't thought that one wouldn't want to in advance use words like

(now quoting Hachacha@48 again)

"I need to be with someone several times before I can reliably get off from their..."mouth or pussy""

To sure, the explanation that started that quoted sentence wasn't what Hachacha said he actually says, he said he only says

"be aware I'm probably not going to cum from your mouth or pussy"

without the explanation. Which is rude and as BiDanFan says @83 insulting.

Hachacha, you effed up @48. You expressed an unfairly gendered frustration, and you told /us/ what would make it not rude, but you then said you announce it to your partners in a way that is rude.

I know it can't be easy to not cum easily (like most men AFAIK). (Which incidentally you have that in common with AFAIK most women.) This situation calls on you to do to a good job of using your words.

Interesting point, Fan, @18. Timing is important.
Either way, these women sound suspect. When a man, in a vulnerable position, ie about to have sex, tells one something so personel, getting angry is a shit move. I’d suggest the man be more discerning picking lovers.
Yes cbu, faking orgasms has been a stand by for women, forever.
LW1, I have young adult children, and years ago I was one myself. Fond memories of my learning and wtf days. Stay cheerful and use your youth well. Seeking advice is important, I had no Dan to turn to. Bungled along, crash landing all over. Life, it’s precious, and you are at the peak of yours. Enjoy it.

Fan @83. Drifted off on that one.

Different strokes, Grizelda. This random blow job trend I find distressing. Why are these girls demeaning their sexuality this way. Sometimes it feels like it’s gone so far into disconnect as humans land, I just turn off. Again, different strokes for different folks.

At my age Grizelda I’ve discovered what amazing musicians Led Zeppelin are. Always knew S to Heaven. Then thought them too loud, so never really listened to them.
Music is my way to avoid this whole catastrophe. So I’m hearing different things, I can see why musicians get lost in the world of notes.

Culture, can’t quite see where it’s heading. Nobody reads books, that’s one of the biggest changes I see, in my life. People read mobile phones.

Re@ 90: Amazing musicians Led Zeppelin were. Old men now or dead. Them as young men is recorded forever.

I've had a couple partners who couldn't come the first few times we slept together. It wasn't generally explicitly stated, but after a while, things slow down, and I might say something like, "Is there anything I can do for you?" and they'd say something like, "Oh, thanks, no, I'm having a great time, but not needing to come right now." And that's that. Since I never expect to come with a new partner--for years and years I never expected to come at all--it's never phased me. I do believe Hachacha that he gets crap responses to that information, but at the same time I find that really odd, since it should be so relatable to so many women. So I'm temped to think the delivery of the information (or the choice of women!) is at fault. But that's just a gut reaction, and probably wrong. I never try to date women, so I'm likely overestimating how easy that conversation should be. Sorry you get such bad responses!

Curious @42, I'll second Bi @48 that my vote for most common female issue with sex is inability to come. I still don't expect to come during sex with anyone but my primary partner. (Which is okay with me, by the way, as I get lots of orgasms at home, both with him and through masturbation.)

Lava, Zeppelin are the bomb. Glad you're discovering them. Agree with you @91, for me one of the saddest things anymore is how people don't read books. And how everyone everywhere is looking at their phone all the time. Bums me out.

@89, @90, @91, and @92 LavaGirl: Stairway to Heaven (c. 1971) by Led Zeppelin (their 4th album, right?) has always been one of my favorite rock classics. My older brother was a big influence on my love of British rock, from the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, the Who, Zeppelin, and Pink Floyd. I'll never forget rocking out to "Whole Lotta Love" full blast in our basement recreation room, complete with color TV and pool table in our family beach house one summer day in '69 at age 5----to my mother's chagrin. From age three onward I loved it and still do. Later on, the kids at my school thought I was weird because in kindergarten and in grade school I wasn't playing "cute little Disney" soundtracks (The Jungle Book, Cinderella, Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, etc.). To this day, music and books are how I can effectively communicate.
@91 LavaGirl and @94 ciods: Agreed and thirded. I see too many people lost in cell phones (I refuse to call them Smart phones!) instead of books. So much is being lost.

Hachacha @84: "I'm not doing anything wrong in the first place." If that were the case, you wouldn't be offending 100% of your sex partners.
I'm continuing this debate because I AM a woman and I HAVE been with people who don't come from intercourse specifically or partnered sex generally, and none of them have told me prior to sex starting, which leads me to conclude that your approach is unusual. They have told me, not 40 minutes in, but during sex which has been satisfying for me and clearly enjoyable for them, and while of course one would want to experience one's partner coming (correct?), the revelation that their orgasm is not forthcoming is disappointing but not "upsetting." So, prior is bad timing; 40 minutes in is bad timing, because she's been tired and bored for 20 minutes and NOW you tell her!?; how about 10 minutes in, or post her first orgasm? Why are you so determined this is everyone else's "fault" but yours?

Lava @89, giving head as a standalone isn't a trend, or if it is, it's a trend that's been happening at least since I was in high school and I'm sure since you were, and since before the invention of high school.

And wow. "Demeaning their sexuality." Some people enjoy giving head. Hopefully their partners reciprocate sometimes. Is that the bit you find demeaning?

@94 ciods
"I'll second Bi @48 that my vote for most common female issue with sex is inability to come"

That sure sounds correct to me, thanks!

Personally, if I were having sex with a new partner and he told me he wasn't going to be able to orgasm but was not bothered by it because he enjoyed sex even without coming, I'd be grateful he told me, as opposed to me just trying everything i could think of and feeling like a failure for being unable to get him off. I doubt my reaction would change if I got that information beforehand or during sex, even at the 40 minute mark (in fact, I have gotten that information during the first time I had sex with someone who went on to become a boyfriend, and it was said with such conviction and the guy seemed to be genuinely enjoying himself, that it was okay). Afterwards, we talked more, and I understood that this was an ongoing issue and that for many years he had only been able to finish by his own hand.

I had no reason to doubt his attraction to me, because his rock-hard cock seemed to be telling me that /I/ wasn't the problem. We continued to have some of the best, hottest, freakiest sex I have ever had for the next 7 or 8 months; I would come a bunch of times, and when I was basically exhausted, he would stroke himself while I mouthed or cupped his balls, or licked his nipples, or fingered his prostate, or simply talked dirty. I always felt included in his orgasm that way, much in the same way as a previous boyfriend, from the days when I could only come with my vibrator, used to be part of my orgasms, because he was in my head, filling it with sexy thoughts as he talked, even if it was my hand holding the vibrator.

And after all, how could I, who used to be anorgasmic and later could only come from using a particular kind of vibrator--and holding it myself--while I was in a particular position, be insulted or offended or made angry or insecure if a man has a similar situation or need.

Sure, some women are so insecure that they could take a man's inability to orgasm from PIV as a referendum on their sexuality, but I think that most women could understand depending on the way the man communicated.

BDF @ 98, 99
While I can’t speak for Lava, and seriously doubt anyone could anyway, she may be referring to a phenomenon I learned about during the late 90’s and early 00’s here in the US, while the kids were still in school.
During that time there was a growing social norm that girls in middle and high school are supposed to give random head in parties, sometimes more than once and not limited to one boy, while expecting nothing in return. There was a strong social pressure to coerce girls into such imbalanced acts, and while some may have enjoyed it I suspect plenty others accepted it as something they have to do in order to fit in.

The New York Times had a story about it, some educators mentioned it to parents, and rumor had it that the 13 yo neighbors’ daughter finally dumped her bf after repeated demands.

As often the case with some other US-originated trends this may have been apparent in other parts of the world few years later.

CMD, I also thought that was the general atmosphere Lava was referring to. The impression I have is that it these days it goes hand in hand with demands for naked selfies, etc., and that both are common among "kids today."

I don't think any SL regular feels it's wrong for women to give blow jobs, even "random" ones :) but the pressure on younger and younger girls to be sexually active without much interest besides pleasing the boys around is probably not something most of us are rooting for.

cbu @ 104
“But they are not a "news" paper as such any more.”

The trend was acknowledged locally, the teen couple wasn’t all white, and the NYT article was published circa 2000, possibly earlier, way before the assumed Bernie jihad as we speak.

Check our Heart’s version of “Stairway” when Zep was honored at the Kennedy Center...

https://youtu.be/LFxOaDeJmXk

CMD @102, interesting, and yes, depressing. I thought Lava was referring to SBH's letter, when she said she would sometimes give her FWB blowjobs but he wouldn't do anything to please her. I suppose blowjob parties are marginally less depressing than preserving one's "virginity" by only having anal sex...
Glad I never had kids!

Nocute @101, indeed. I'm certain the reactions this guy is getting are a combination of his timing and his tact (or lack thereof) rather than the information itself.

I well remember those stories--rumors?--of middle-school-blow-job-parties (including a so-called trend known as "rainbow" parties, wherein each girl was supposed to be wearing a different shade of lipstick so that at the party's conclusion, a boy's penis would be striped with the different colors of lipstick). Most of them were debunked as an example of parental hysteria. There may have been a few such parties, but the story blew up and the reporting made it seem like they were rampant. They weren't.

Although there was a religious school in my vicinity that actually had a "blow-jobs-in-the-boy's-bathroom-thing" going on for a while, before they got caught.

I can recall a couple of episodes of Ms Banks' talk programme dealing with F-on-M Oral Is Expected By Late Middle School.

Two sporting things in the news this morning. Ms Evert's sister (and, early on, doubles partner) Jeannie has died. And the US Olympic hockey team from 1980 appeared at a Trump rally wearing the red hats. Gearing up for the next salvo in the culture war, I wonder whether there are more Democratic fans of men's hockey or Republican fans of women's soccer.

@111 cocky
Hold on there, the depressing thing to me (and I expect the others) is that

"There was a strong social pressure to coerce girls" that they "are supposed to give random head"(1)

(Having studied cults, this made me think of behavior in a cult designed by a (typically) male cult leader.)

You distilling it down to unreciprocated was messed up. What happened to the coercion, did that just flow out of your head as though your skull were a colander?

(1) CMD@102

@112 p.s.
But thank you for giving me cause to add my voice to this topic. I had heard that there had been a great casual-izing of oral sex among teens. I was aghast to hear that this somehow veered into coercive peer pressure; I was /so/ happy to read nocute@109 say that the coercion was vastly overhyped.

@100 curious2: WA-HOOOOO!!!!! Enormous congrats on scoring the Big Hunsky!! Savor the envied SL glory. :)

@107 BiDanFan: I'm glad I never had kids, either.

@102 CMDwannabe: Oh, god, that's horrible! I feel sorry for all girls who went through that since the 1990s and aughts, and reiterate my statement made to BiDanFan in @116:
I'm glad I never had kids, either.