Savage Love

Thrown Bones

Comments

107

CMD @102, interesting, and yes, depressing. I thought Lava was referring to SBH's letter, when she said she would sometimes give her FWB blowjobs but he wouldn't do anything to please her. I suppose blowjob parties are marginally less depressing than preserving one's "virginity" by only having anal sex...
Glad I never had kids!

108

Nocute @101, indeed. I'm certain the reactions this guy is getting are a combination of his timing and his tact (or lack thereof) rather than the information itself.

109

I well remember those stories--rumors?--of middle-school-blow-job-parties (including a so-called trend known as "rainbow" parties, wherein each girl was supposed to be wearing a different shade of lipstick so that at the party's conclusion, a boy's penis would be striped with the different colors of lipstick). Most of them were debunked as an example of parental hysteria. There may have been a few such parties, but the story blew up and the reporting made it seem like they were rampant. They weren't.

Although there was a religious school in my vicinity that actually had a "blow-jobs-in-the-boy's-bathroom-thing" going on for a while, before they got caught.

110

I can recall a couple of episodes of Ms Banks' talk programme dealing with F-on-M Oral Is Expected By Late Middle School.

Two sporting things in the news this morning. Ms Evert's sister (and, early on, doubles partner) Jeannie has died. And the US Olympic hockey team from 1980 appeared at a Trump rally wearing the red hats. Gearing up for the next salvo in the culture war, I wonder whether there are more Democratic fans of men's hockey or Republican fans of women's soccer.

111

Whatever the reality of high school sex, I find it interesting that women commenters here can conceive of giving (unreciprocated) head only as being depressing, whereas men who give unreciprocated head (to other men) tend to do it because we seek it out and enjoy it and very often specifically don't want reciprocation, which for many would ruin the experience. Gay men who give head often think of themselves as being in the position of power. I mean, it's quite a magic trick we can do if you think about it.

112

@111 cocky
Hold on there, the depressing thing to me (and I expect the others) is that

"There was a strong social pressure to coerce girls" that they "are supposed to give random head"(1)

(Having studied cults, this made me think of behavior in a cult designed by a (typically) male cult leader.)

You distilling it down to unreciprocated was messed up. What happened to the coercion, did that just flow out of your head as though your skull were a colander?

(1) CMD@102

113

@112 p.s.
But thank you for giving me cause to add my voice to this topic. I had heard that there had been a great casual-izing of oral sex among teens. I was aghast to hear that this somehow veered into coercive peer pressure; I was /so/ happy to read nocute@109 say that the coercion was vastly overhyped.

114

@100 curious2: WA-HOOOOO!!!!! Enormous congrats on scoring the Big Hunsky!! Savor the envied SL glory. :)

116

@107 BiDanFan: I'm glad I never had kids, either.

117

@102 CMDwannabe: Oh, god, that's horrible! I feel sorry for all girls who went through that since the 1990s and aughts, and reiterate my statement made to BiDanFan in @116:
I'm glad I never had kids, either.

120

@101 nocutename: You are so fortunate. I can't begin to imagine how good that feels. It sounds like both you and your partner (and later BF) were very good in mutually reciprocating each other.

121

No reciprocation Fan, and this is common with young women / teenagers giving young men head. Imagine the boys’ level of hygiene and food they eat. Maybe some of the girls enjoy it, the issue is it’s expected by the boys. They get, they don’t give.

122

Cocky @111, it was in this column that I learned the wonderful saying "if a woman sucks your dick, she's doing you a favour, and if a man sucks your dick, you are doing him a favour." Gender dynamics play a big role here. If a man sucks another man's dick, he is only doing it because he wants to. When it's a woman, it's very difficult to decouple the act from the pressure women are subjected to to defer and submit to men in every situation. In the context of a relationship, as I said @99, there is nothing wrong with unreciprocated blowjobs as part of one's sex life. Reciprocation need not take place on the same occasion, but should happen generally (unless the giver does not like receiving, which sometimes happens). In the case of SBH, she's giving him head but not receiving any of the sex she wants, which is why her situation is depressing.

Hachacha @115, yes, a lot of people are jerks. But not all people are jerks, and if every single woman you've revealed this to has been a jerk, please consider whether you are in some way the common denominator. Anyone who reads Savage Love should EXPECT better. And I'm trying and failing to recall an occasion when a man has become upset with me over a perceived shortcoming in bed, sorry, can't relate.

Hachacha @118, it's hard to accept when you keep changing your story. You tell the women just before you fuck them, they receive this information well (which contradicts what you said previously), then 40 minutes later they get upset that you haven't come, even after you warned them you wouldn't? Are they upset that they haven't come either? Sorry, this makes no sense to me, and don't forget, I too sleep with women. I'm all out of advice, since everything I suggest you reject anyway. Hope you figure it out. (Have you tried dating women in their 40s?)

Hachacha @119, haha, this isn't about my ego at all. This is an advice column, I was simply offering some advice based on your, apparently, badly phrased account of a recurring issue you were having with women, of whom I am one. Is your defensiveness the issue perhaps, not just in this situation but your love life generally? If you take advice as if it were a piranha attack, you have bigger issues than inability to come. I hope you're seeking help for them.

123

No, it wasn’t happening when I was in high school. Boys expecting head from
random girls at parties etc. so these girls expose themselves to STI’s etc from a young age and what’s the gain. For them. Pressured no doubt because it’s whats expected. Nothing ever really changes.

124

Lava @123, I'm not sure how we got from SBH's letter to blowjob parties, but I clearly missed the connection when asserting that blowjobs were happening while both you and I were young and are therefore not a trend. I strongly suspect blowjob parties are an urban myth, but I don't have any kids so what do I know. If these are happening, I hope parents are raising their girls with enough self esteem to say no.

125

The link is from LW2, where she says he won’t have sex with her, though she still gives him occasional blowjobs. One friend with benefits in that scenario.

126

I saw that version Domny. It was a great performance.

127

Lava @125, yes, I saw your post @81 related to that letter, LW2 whose signoff is Sad But Horny (SBH). I don't see how we got from that to teenage girls being pressured to give blowjobs to boys at parties. But we got here regardless, so here we are.

128

Ms Fan @122 - "if a woman sucks your dick, she's doing you a favour, and if a man sucks your dick, you are doing him a favour."

Even just reading that extremely wrong sentence made my stomach cramp. I never liked that activity from either end, only tried to oblige because of prevailing attitudes like Mr Savage's. The sentence also invites DS men to think we all regard them as highly desirable trade and that we'd all gladly give them unreciprocated service in perpetuity. Given Mr Savage's expressed preferences for non-masculine types, I think he would only spread that sort of thing that's perhaps kinda-sorta true about half the time because benefit to women far outweighs throwing gays under the bus.

129

@Hachacha
Another reason one wonders if you do "a good job of using your words"(quoting myself@86), is that you /demonstrated/ that you /don't/ do a good job using your words starting with the very comment @48.

I agree with BiDanFan@122, "you have bigger issues than inability to come"; and you know what? Working on those bigger issues might actually resolve your difficulty cumming.

130

venn @128 "Ms Fan @122 - "if a woman sucks your dick, she's doing you a favour, and if a man sucks your dick, you are doing him a favour."

Even just reading that extremely wrong sentence made my stomach cramp. I never liked that activity from either end"

That sentence, though admittedly formulated in too absolute terms, is hardly "extremely wrong". There is a "glory hole" establishment where I live, about which I have it on good authority that more men visit it, and pay the entrance fee, to be on the giving end of that activity than on the receiving end.

I don't think many women would pay to be on the giving end of that activity.

131

@112, BDF, thank you for clarifying in a civil way, as opposed to curious who has to back-hand an insult to everyone he disagrees with.

Yes I agree social pressures on women are different. But maybe something can be learned from gay culture, where bottoms tend to consider themselves as powerful. (And I am not talking about power bottoms.) Seriously, no good blowjob could possibly come from coercion, unless you believe porn, but we all know porn is mostly lies. Think about it - the giver is in almost complete control of the receiver's sensory experience for however long the giver decides. You can make the "top" lose control, beg and sob, and melt into a puddle. In what other activity do you have that much power over a man?

132

And peer pressure is different from coercion. I think even teens have agency and if they follow what peers do it is because they want to. Of course parents always want to blame the other kids, not their own little innocents, so I understand where the myth of peer pressure comes from.

134

Hachacha @133, this was never about you being "wrong," this was about you coming into the comments section with a problem and I and others offering solutions on how you could solve it. Your initial post was confusing, hence my "rephrasing" it in an attempt to understand what the actual problem was. Let's revisit your original post:

'...I'm very much "Hey, this is going to be very fun and pleasurable and satisfying for me but be aware I'm probably not going to cum from your mouth or pussy" and have no qualms about saying that'

Your use of quotation marks implied that these are the words you are using, or close to them, which you have since denied.

'before a hookup, literally 100% of women (maybe 15-20 since I learned myself well enough to tell people) I've been with have put-off'

This reads as you tell them before sex, and they are upset by your disclosure. Then @118, you say they accept the disclosure when you tell them but get upset sometime down the line when your orgasm, as predicted, fails to materialise.

What's changed is not my rationale for how you must be wrong, but my guess as to what you could do differently based on your changing information. No, women shouldn't get upset and feel entitled to your orgasm. But it's highly unlikely that "literally 100%" of women would react that way, so you've either had statistically impossible bad luck or more likely terrible taste, are eliciting these reactions through your own approach to not coming,or are exaggerating the "literally 100%." I tend to be quite literal, so I was going with the second possibility. (Also, how strange that you expect me to have had identical experiences?)

Anyway, the upshot of all of this is that my advice seems not to be welcome, so never mind, carry on.

136

BROKE:
You should try new forms of masturbation for its own sake, not just as some sort of preparation for partnered sex. There's nothing wrong with exploring new ways to achieve your own pleasure by yourself. Just thinking practically: learning how to masturbate sitting down or lying on your back gives you more options to do it in more places. It seems sadly limiting to require a mattress for masturbation.

Meanwhile, you should be open to the very real possibility that your sexual pleasure will change over the course of your life. I went through a period in my 20's when I couldn't orgasm from fellatio. That turned out to be just a temporary phase, in my case.

137

As for the argument about "blowjob favors," most hetero women as far as I can tell fall on a spectrum. Very few of them are hugely turned on by the idea or the activity, some are completely repulsed by it, but a large number in the middle enjoy the fact that their partner enjoys it but don't really enjoy it themselves, or in some cases they could take it or leave it. (Ignore the Debbie Does Dallas myth about the woman with a clitoris in the back of her throat. Wrong on so many, many levels.) The same woman may feel differently depending on who her partner is or feel differently at different times in her life.

I always try to assume complexity and diversity, especially as a Savage Love reader....

The safest assumption is that the giver will probably not enjoy it as much as the receiver. Start from there.

138

wellokaythen @137 "Ignore the Debbie Does Dallas myth about the woman with a clitoris in the back of her throat."

That was from "Deep Throat" (1972) actually. I don't think that plot point was meant to be taken seriously.

139

Since I started the non recip bj discussion I’d like to put few things in perspective.
The NYT article I referred to was published some 5 years or so before the subject came up with an educator speaking to parents about different things related to their children. It was a very liberal school that did not cover things sunder the carpet, and the information was based on what they heard from students as well as other teachers in that school and in the area.
It wasn’t hysteria stemming from an article written by a white entitled editor in Connecticut which I brought to illustrate that this was an ongoing phenomenon.
That it wasn’t happening or apparent in other schools or geography doesn’t necessarily mean that it never happened elsewhere.

Some here described this happening in college for the same social points that one could have earned while in HS. It is reasonable to assume that the wild points and social positioning are ideas which may have been acquired in a younger age, related to social norms and environments where those college students grew up.

I’m happy for those who chose not to have children. I respect their choice and glad they have the option to live their lives as they see fit while avoiding social pressure, labeled as weirdos or ostracized by their families.
For those of us who have children this whole thing did came as yet another parenting challenge that needs to be addressed, nothing like, “Oh, I’m so sad I had a child. Where’s the return counter?”
Being a parent is a joyful journey that also enabled me to learn a lot about myself and others, adopt and develop new skills. Having raised children who are able to navigate all this and other areas of their lives seemingly better than I did when I was their age is a huge reward.

140

I don’t think that’s true @137, sucking cock is very pleasurable, depending on who the cock is attached to.
It’s the assumption of it being part of a set routine, or a routine by itself which makes it an unpleasant experience. It’s a intimate behaviour, to some of us, not something owed. This pushy sexual behaviour is fed by slothful porn, SP, and has nothing to do with a lot of real flesh women. Caricatures which suit men’s fantasies. I get it. Men in my fantasies do what I want them to do too.

141

This was an earlier beef I had with Dan. He outlines standard behaviours ‘straight women/ girls must follow’ yet there’s no standard behaviours for gay men. Even our Dan is imbued with insidious Patriarchal attitudes.

142

cockyballsup @131 "the giver is in almost complete control of the receiver's sensory experience for however long the giver decides."

I've given blowjobs where the man was definitely in control, holding my head and shoving his dick down my throat as long as he chose to, making me choke and sob. Some of those I enjoyed, since I have a kink for being controlled -- though definitely not all. It's possible to get yourself into a situation you don't enjoy and can't easily get out of.

Even without the throat-fucking, I've also felt pressure/emotional coercion to continue until he came, rather than stopping whenever I wanted.

I'm glad you've largely had fun experiences giving blowjobs. Most of the ones I've given have been also fun for me, but clearly not all.

143

Sorry that happened to you Erica. Buddhist though I am, I’d like to punch that man, others like him, in the face.

145

Sporty, is that you @ 144?

146

All good @144, Hachacha. Yes, it’s not something to get upset about because women shouldn’t assume a man will come. So it’s one on us to check.
It is primal hearing a man come, so it’s not only about vanity.

147

During PiV sex I’m meaning.

148

Now that daughter and mob have set up camp indefinitely on the family block, I have to accept my peaceful life has been curtailed for a while. It’s goes easier than I thought it would. The three and a half year old grandson is interesting to watch, how he runs his plays. Says to his mother this morning; ‘ mum, I’ve eaten the last chocolate cookie.’
His mother replies ‘ but there was more than one cookie left. Do you mean you ate the last one then the one before that and the one before that..’ He nodded.

149

Cbu, books are the only things I buy online. And not from Amazon. I love it when they turn up.. usually Art books/ biographies of Artists / writers.
Have to see the pictures and read the words via paper. Novels are trickier, because I hate buying a dud novel I can’t get into.
Ciods, working thru my mothers things and seeing all of the remaining books of my father’s. Ones his children didn’t pilfer long ago. I found a European printed copy of Lady Chatterleys, years ago, still in the brown paper bag. The titles I left, which I now look at, are crazy. He had books on French history, so many revolutions. Ancient Greece and GB, Cleopatra. The directions our libraries go in.

150

SBH: He's obsessed with limerence. That's why he started dating you despite having a girlfriend, why he "broke the rules" happily, and why he's now moved on to others. You're not new, so he's no longer interested; move on. And upgrade your bullshit detectors.

151

@139 CMDwannabe: Bravo to you for being a good parent! Actually, what you have been able to do is something I didn't think I'd be good at. So, for many reasons, I simply didn't--and I had to battle my ass off literally to fend myself from my abusive spouse, his family, friends, and others in staying with my choice not to reproduce.And I'm glad I did. Plus, I'm not a fan of pregnancy, labor, childbirth,& delivery, post-partum depression and all the infinite changes that would have happened to my body if I had become a parent. It would have been for all the worst "reasons".

152

@142 EricaP: Oh, Erica---that's horrible! I'm sorry that happened to you. I can so relate.

153

CMD @139, I'm sorry if I caused offense with my "I'm glad I never had children" quip. I just meant it in the sense you alluded to -- that this is yet another parenting challenge I would have found stressful to navigate. My hat is off to you and the other parents on this thread for the hard work you did in raising the next generations. It's tough enough to BE a teenager, let alone raise one.

FWIW, there were no "blowjob parties" in high school that I heard of, but older teen/young adult girls would often give head to avoid PIV while keeping the guy interested. And there were "truth or dare" parties which often escalated to sexual favours; these were in my 20s and not limited to F-on-M oral. Surely some folks got an earlier start on that sort of thing.

Lava @140, I agree the enjoyment level of fellatio depends entirely on whom the cock is attached to. Perhaps SBH likes sucking her partner's cock for the sake of it, so we shouldn't pity her for that aspect of her sex life. I think the difference is that few women would say they enjoy giving head to randos, the way some gay men do -- remember the glory hole chat?

EricaP @142, seconding your experience of men who want to take control during blowjobs. As this is not my kink, I don't enjoy it at all, and it's the surest way to never get head from me again.

Hachacha @144, if that's an apology I'll accept it. For the record, I wasn't upset, merely confused, and honestly trying to be helpful. I'm sorry this has been your experience and I hope you find some way to finding more acceptance. But yeah, if you came here seeking "reassurance" that yes, all women are such horrible hypocritical creatures and there's absolutely nothing you could have done differently, you indeed came to the wrong place!

CMD @145, I don't think so. Sporty isn't capable of recognising when his comments are inappropriate.

Lava @149, high five for not supporting the evil Amazon empire.

154

With impeccable timing, a column all about blowjobs has landed today.

155

Wild girl points too, yes. It all depended, I suppose, on whether one preferred to get a reputation as a slut or a prude.

156

Hachacha, there's the fourth possibility. You interpreted my posts as me being "upset" when I wasn't. Is it possible you are misinterpreting your partners' reactions as also being "upset" when in truth they are merely disappointed? As Lava @146 says, it's not all about ego -- it's enjoyable when one's partner comes. Someone can accept that this is how your body works yet still feel a bit sad to be missing out on the experience. Perhaps you're going into this with the foregone conclusion that she'll be "upset" and then when she says something like, oh I'm sorry I couldn't make you come, or that's a shame, you're rounding up this mild expression of regret to fit your narrative. She may be expressing regret that you didn't come to avoid appearing selfish -- remember the societal expectation is that we must hang in there until he comes to avoid giving him blue balls. If you can't forestall the negative reactions, try seeing them a bit more charitably perhaps. And now I am definitely moving on.

157

Yes Fan. Gay men have different ways we all long ago learnt that. Didn’t sound like LW2
was giving head for her pleasure.
If the woman enjoys herself, no problem. It’s the expectation and coercion. What Erica had to go thru. You’d be tempted to give his dick a god almighty bite. Then he might kill you.
It’s a much more intimate behaviour, to me, oral, than PiV is. A gay man, he has a cock himself, his eroticism around cock is different to mine, a woman without one.
It’s a ritual of pleasure and exploration for a woman, if she’s allowed to set the pace. Doesn’t have a cock stuck in her face. The mutuality leaves if set moves are in play.

158

@131 cockyballsup
First, since my @112 I may have noticed someone actually (as you) focusing on the unreciprocated bit(1). But still, @111 you referred generally to "women commenters", not just to one.

"curious who has to back-hand an insult to everyone he disagrees with."

No not with everyone. And I wasn't 'disagreeing' with you.

I was observing that you mischaracterized womens' position and thereby insulted them. That behavior of yours I thought deserved to be called out. In other words I insulted you for wrongly insulting others; and yes, it was an indirect ("back-hand") insult of you that you would do such a thing. And one which you have in no way disavowed; had you disavowed I would have apologized.

(1) Which I agree can also be a justifiable issue.

@131 cockyballsup
"peer pressure is different from coercion"

Peer pressure can be a form of coercion. (Because humans are social animals who need others, it can be a very strong form of coercion.)

159

@149, Lava, I run into that problem with books of photography or other visual arts. Often only available at high prices in physical form.

@EricaP, I went through a period where the giving of the blowjob to completion was one of the hottest things to me. But even at my best I hated being shoved onto someone's dick and the deepthroat choking. But I loved the primalness that Lava alluded to, including the loss of control of the top during ejaculation. But I have since moved on to other things and so understand also the not being into it.

160

Lava @157, I agree that oral sex is more intimate than PIV. I was never one of those girls who gave head to avoid PIV -- oral was something to be added to a relationship (as loosely defined as that may have been) where PIV was already taking place. I agree as well that since we don't have dicks ourselves, we don't know what a blowjob feels like and there is more guesswork and performance anxiety for us. And our mouths are generally smaller. An early, well-hung lover who did nothing but lie back silently while I laboured fruitlessly did not help my confidence. A subsequent partner, manageable in size, who gave positive feedback changed everything.

Curious @158, I got what Cocky meant by the difference between peer pressure and coercion. Peer pressure is a general expectation; coercion is applied by the person who is forcing one to do the thing. Peer pressure can be highly influential, yes, but one still has a choice.

161

@160 BiDanDan
"the difference between peer pressure and coercion"

OK, I see what you and cocky mean.

"social pressure...to take a certain action...in order to be accepted."
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/peer-pressure

"persuading someone to do something by using force or threats"
https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/coercion

Let's say in a hypothetical situation, a teen girl wants to be part of a group of kids, who expect her to give a random blowjob. With coercion, the spoken threat is that if she doesn't she can't join the group. With peer-pressure (since it hasn't risen to the level of threat) I infer that if she declines, she will not have been excluded yet.

@158 I said "Peer pressure can be a form of coercion."

And maybe that point is where she declines again and becomes excluded. Maybe she wouldn't even know that point had been reached (it could be unspoken) if she weren't reading body language.

162

Curious @161, the way I understand it is that peer pressure means that she is given the choice to give the blowjob or not be accepted by the group, while coercion means that (either physically or psychologically) she is not given the choice.

163

@162 BiDanFan
"the way I understand it is that peer pressure means that she is given the choice to give the blowjob or not be accepted by the group"

Sure that's an example of peer pressure...which since there's a threat is also coercive. [Couldn't (as in my example) the 'psychological' choice be the same choice with coercion, as with peer pressure?]

Anyway, I was just trying to frame a hypothetical in which there's a very fine distinction--whether or not there's a threat (since "threat" is in the definition of "coercion")--between the two.

I mean, historically there have been many coercive choices: Whether to follow the Nazis in 1930's Germany or whether to die. One can still have a choice where there's little practical choice. Some young person might be so lonely that being an outcast without any friends might feel like a choice they can't bear to make.

On a tangent, this reminds me of some psychological testing in my High School by a team from Stanford. Apparently there's only a single-digit percentage of people (of which I tested as one) who is self-directed (aka independently motivated) enough to not let external forces make their decisions. (The 1960s in particular were a golden age of social psychologists trying to figure out what the hell happened in Nazi Germany; there's a lot of great relevant books but I'll shut up about this favorite topic of mine before I start enthusing about particular books.)

164

As long as we're on the subject of blowjobs, I would like to offer what I think is one of late comedian / actor Robin WIlliams's best and funniest film lines, ever, as Airman Adrian Cronauer, to Sergeant Major Dickerson, upon his discharge from his post as a DJ in 1965 Saigon in Good Morning, Vietnam (1987):
"You know, you are in more need of a blowjob than any other white man in history."

Rest in peace, Robin Williams (July 21, 1951-August 11, 2014), and bless you for making so many of us laugh. Big hugs, positrons, and VW beeps, Mork.