Curious @ 107 - Believers who are sensible do not grow a beard just because a book of dubious origin that's thousands of years old tells them to.

Also, exemples abound of believers who refuse to take the necessary steps to protect their lives and prefer to hand that responsibility over to their god (JW's refusal of blood transfusions is but one).

@ 108 - That we can agree on.

P.S. to @ 109 - And trumpsters voted for Trump, so what can you really expect from them?

@79 Lavagirl, a mug’s game Is any game of chance played by a mug punter - one who has no idea of what he’s doing, and is therefore the perfect patsy - a ‘mug’ in this context is someone so foolish or naive they deserve to be mugged. Australian slang is very closely related to the slang used by Londoner’s of a criminal disposition, for some reason.

@95 BiDanFan: Thank you for your kind words of support. My doctors are anti-hysterectomy and anti breast reduction sugery (cost prohibitive--and gravity as we age) But I have been ready for menopause since 1977, at age 13.
Sending hugs, dark chocolate, VW beeps, and red wine certainly do help. Hugs and chocolate right back! :)
@96 curious2: I have to watch my sugar, and high fructose corn syrup would be a killer for me, but thank you for the kind words of support and suggestion. Maybe sugar free cranberry juice? :)
@97 Ricardo: Thank you so much, too, for your love and sympathy.
@100 LavaGirl: WA-HOOOOOO!!!! Congtats on scoring your sexy Hunsky man in this week's Savage Love! Savor the envied decadence in all its magnificent splendor. :)

@106 Ricardo: Agreed. I would love to see the end of the Duck Die-nasty clan's TeeVee popularity. Talk about social irony: those schmoes look like they haven't bathed in six months, and yet their wives, vulnerable to a wealth of infectious diseases all have to stay well-dressed and carefully made up for TeeVee. This is infinitely worse than the Carrington - Colby wars of the Reagan-era 80s honoring the filthy steenking rich. Now we've got the filthy steenking coming out of the swamps.

@113 LavaGirl: Congtats?! !#@$!!!!! Make that: "Congrats on scoring your sexy Hunsky man in this week's Savage Love!"
So weird how my worst typos occur when Griz is sober.
Red, red wiiiiiine....stay close to meeeeee......

BDF: "As someone who doesn't like receiving, what was your attitude towards this prior to experiencing it?"

I was assaulted that way at 17, and that generated my dislike for it. I hadn't thought much about cunnilingus before that.

But I know the idea of being rimmed was distasteful and put me off trying it for many years. It makes sense to me that many women might feel similar distaste about the idea of receiving oral.

LavaGirl @101 "do these men think women like it" -- kinks are hard to explain. Dadddy did a good job @ 112.

A sub can want to be treated in a way the sub expects not to enjoy in the moment. Some doms do that delightfully. But other doms relish getting the sub into a much worse situation than the sub imagined or wanted. And some people are such bastards that they force this shit on unsuspecting vanilla folks.

Do some women enjoy some level of throat-fucking? Yes. But a lot depends on the circumstances.

@116 EricaP
"I was assaulted that way at 17...cunnilingus"

I'm so sorry that happened to you!

It's horrific that most women have been assaulted. (81% of all women per https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/02/21/587671849/a-new-survey-finds-eighty-percent-of-women-have-experienced-sexual-harassment ; before I knew the stats I thought it might just be most women I've known, but no, it's most period.)

EricaP @116, I too am sorry you had that experience.
Having given it further thought, it doesn't seem so implausible that cis women may have internalised shame around the idea that their vaginas are smelly or dirty and be put off by the idea of someone licking down there. The sooner society gets rid of this notion, the better.

Something I've been thinking about.... In the letter, giving head seems to be, for the LW, all tied up with dominance and submission and shame and dirtiness. Even when she says that now she has learned to like it some, it seems she likes it because it's dirty.

Now, for me, shame and submission have nothing to do with why I like to suck cock. In fact, when anything like that comes into it from my partner by word or action, I stop having a nice time and don't want to do it anymore.

For me, it's all about a hard cock being beautiful and I want to touch it, I want to kiss it, I want to have it in my mouth. My partner's enjoyment is most certainly part of my enjoyment, too. I like to do it not because it's dirty or shameful or a sign of submission, but because it's nice.

I know that there are some who find shame and submission, or the idea that they are doing something "bad", arousing. But for those of us who don't, the idea that sucking cock is nasty is another notion that, the sooner society gets rid of it, the better.

@120 BiDanFan
"cis women may have internalised shame around the idea that their vaginas are smelly or dirty...The sooner society gets rid of this notion, the better."

Absolutely! IIRC, Dan has more than once over the years helped women letter writers free themselves of that; kudos to Dan for that!

@122 Ricardo
IIRC, at some point you mentioned that you have a tendency (like I do too) to take things literally. Or maybe I recall that wrong. Anyway, that was how I read your "intent" response to LavaGirl. My take was that LG was just using a common figure of speech not intended to be taken literally by people who would assume she understood the basic mechanics of natural selection.

/Break/
Gosh, I look forward to fubar's suggested guest columns.

Or why don't one of y'all start an online sex advice column yourself!
Anyone know a good website template they could use? Webhost one, tell us, and watch it go viral!

Griz @ 114 - The Carrington - Colby wars had the merit of being hilariously funny (with the right amount of weed). "Infinitely worse" is a massive understatement.

Curious @ 123 - I believe "pedantic" is the word I used to describe myself. I intentionally take things literally, just because I'm a bitch. The result is the same, at least in this instance. But the fact of the matter is that by definition, intentions can only be had by sentient beings, and evolution is a process, not a sentient being. Still, LavaGirl is wise enough not to start insulting someone because of such a minor disagreement, unlike some other people.

Now to get back to the subject of people dying because they won't shave: I went to the park yesterday, and there was this guy (with microphone, speaker and all) saying "Everyone is afraid of getting infected by the coronavirus. But if you believe in Jesus-Christ, nothing will happen to you!"

He had a beard. My guess is that we won't be seeing him anymore in six months' time.

@126 Ricardo
Oh, right, we are both pedantic.
Myself, while not suggesting I'm not good at looking at the big picture, I have a tendency to focus on details; I think we're both good at details.

"coronavirus "...if you believe in Jesus-Christ, nothing will happen to you!" He had a beard."

Reminds me of the darwinawards.com

Some dating site has a question like 'should people with low intelligence be allowed to reproduce?' I answered yes, and I'm not /hoping/ stupid people will die of this coronavirus...but natural selection does have benefits. (And as discussed here last year, it appears that humans aren't benefiting from selective pressure as much as we used to.)

Our vaginas can be smelly Fan, some of the time, let’s not lie here. I’ve never thought I was dirty though. It’s a self cleaning device, once the monthly bleed is done. Then it all starts again.
I remember it well.
Ricardo don’t scare people. The Jesus freak may well clean his beard meticulously. No flies or bacteria on him.

The opposite, Fan. I’ve been in awe of my vagina the womb it leads to and breasts which get the message and turn into a milk bar. Amazing.

Griz @86 Thanks!

Griz @87 GAH! It’s horrible that your body is giving you pain, but worse that it’s associated with your sex. My prostate threatened to kill me several years ago, so I had it removed. Better to avoid such measures, if possible, I guess, but it’s a zero sum game. Virtual hugs and best wishes to you.

Ricardo @103: The wearing of masks will not stop anyone getting Coronavirus, or any other virus smaller than a grain of sugar (i.e., all of them), so the having of beards is completely irrelevant. At least, that’s what I’m reading on the Interwebs these days.

LavaGirl @128: i personally wouldn’t use the word “smelly”, which is rather perjorative, and apt only in a minimum of unfortunate cases. Vaginas (or labias, and other adjacent girly bits) can be aromatic, but that’s not a bad thing. It’s a shame that many women seem to think so.

I’ve enjoyed going down on women at all times or their monthly cycle. Some times are more aromatic than others, but that lends to the experience.

@119: “Your tireless exhortations ... are tiresome.” Consider downloading Grammarly.

@124: Never mind. Grammarly can’t help with stalky and creepy.

I’ll call my fanny smelly fubar.. because sometimes it was. Not so much now because it’s been decommissioned as part of the baby making story. Musky aromas are part of the story and occasionally fishy smells. It never worried me, and sex during periods was never a favourite.

@125 Ricardo: I do have to admit, the Carrington - Colby wars were, for me, quite amusing. Imagine Linda Evans (Blake Carrington's current wife, Crystal) and Joan Collins (Blake's bitterly jealous, possessive ex-wife, Alexis) actually mud wrestling over Blake (John Forsythe).
I can't help but wonder how long before any of the Robertson clan (Duck Dynasty) end up mud wrestling gators. Look what happened to Australian zookeeper, wildlife preservationist, environmentalist and activist Stephen Robert Irwin (The Crocodile Hunter), who predicted his own death in 2006 wrestling one gator too many. R..I.P., Steve Irwin.

@130 fubar; Many thanks. I called my gynecologist's office late last night, got her answering service and she called right back. She suggested that, because it was late (after 11 pm) and I had taken my last Pamprin tablet to try to get some sleep. Then go to my drugstore today for ibuprofen and maximum strength Pamprin (a.k.a. over-the-counter knockout drops because of the muscle relaxants), come straight home and lay low until first thing tomorrow (Monday) morning and make an appointment.
I'm pretty sure my gynecologist is still going to say no big time to my getting a hysterectomy. It didn't correct what my mother wanted and need fixing, and, for me, would be cost prohibitive, unless I could get approval for the procedure by the VA.
and
@131 fubar: Both you and the women you have gone down on during their periods are all fortunate. Bless you. I don't think you would have wanted to go down on me, though. Not that I ever thought menstruation itself was dirty, but for me, it was very messy as well as excruciatingly painful. I had an extremely heavy monthly flow (again, picture the scene from Stanley Kubrick's bizarre 1980 film interpretation of Stephen King's 1977 novel, The Shining when the elevator doors open and the hotel lobby of the Overlook Hotel fills with blood). It is interesting to note that I stated menstruating the very same year KIng's novel, The Shining, was published.
Before my uterine ablation in 2014 I suffered menorrhagia (severely heavy menstrual bleeding), which was thick, clotted, and had a terrible odor. If anything, I was uncomfortable and afraid of drowning anyone who went down on me more than anything else.

Perhaps it was somewhat medicinal for me to have a recent evening of Cabernet Sauvignon and engage in movies involving the bullied / underdogs fighting back. Still in a Stephen King mood, I saw Carrie (1976) rooting for Sissy Spacek and Keith Gordon in Christine (1983). Big hugs and shout outs to the Carrie Whites and Arnie Cunninghams of the world.

Lava @128, any body part gets smelly if it is not cleaned, but is not smelly if it is clean. Many women fear their vaginas have a naturally unpleasant smell, a belief that is aided and abetted by these douche and other "feminine hygiene" products, which is damaging. A vagina's natural musky smell is not unpleasant, in fact quite the opposite from the perspective of those of us who like pussy, is what I am hoping to get across here. Period sex of any sort is a different issue. Some enjoy it, but others don't, and an opt out should not be taken as evidence of any sort of internalised shame. As Griz says, there are many other reasons we might not be interested in sex during that time of the month.

It happened sometimes at the end of a period. This is not a crime or something to be ashamed of. A baby bag comes out, it’s a momentous occasion.
True Fan, so much crap going on about putting any products down there. That’s why my preference is for coconut oil. Issue with condoms though. Life is full of quandaries.
Thinking of this Fan, I wonder if there are any books out there like the how babies are made ones. Something for girls, “ This Is Your Vagina.”
If girls knew what a treasure they have in feeling pleasure, they wouldn’t cut into all that sensitive tissue. Tragic shit going on that’s for sure.

It would have to be; “ This Is Your Vagina +”
All those words, clitoris, labia and whatnot. Best not to confuse them in the title.

Those names are so clinical. I only know where my vagina and clit-or-is are. Labia is quite a sweet word. Can see why slang came about.
Would need to have a chapter on slang terms for our genitals. Must be some poetic ones out there. Be good to compile them so girls could have pet names for their own, and encourage their lovers to use their preferred genital name.
Vaginaaa is such a tedious word for a dynamic place. How’s your vag Madge.

I agree with BDF @136. And an unclean vagina can usually be discerned before one is face deep in it.

Up close, labias may be musky, but quite often have a nutty taste that reminds me of pistachios. Flavour consists of taste, smell, and texture; fannies can be delicious on all counts. Don’t get me started on wine pairings!

Griz had another movie night. My horrible pain is blessedly gone--but I'm still calling my gynecologist's office in the morning for an appointment. I guess it's Welcome to the Jungle for women over 50.
I enjoyed "brinner", tonight: breakfast for dinner. Ham & cheddar scramble, bacon and sausage, a cup of blueberries and raspberries, and lime juice, plus the following at midnight, Monday, March 2nd: very appropriately Good Morning, Vietnam followed by The Breakfast Club.

@141 fubar: I hope I didn't gross you out with TMI!

How about that, folks? It's 4 a.m. Monday morning; Griz has consumed red, red wine, and no typos. Is it because Cabernet Sauvignon goes down smooth like Brad Pitt and is forgiving in the morning?

@144: I had dark chocolate for dessert, too.

@130 fubar
"masks will not stop anyone getting Coronavirus, or any other virus smaller than a grain of sugar"

(According to the many articles I read yesterday...)
While masks are being discouraged, that's not why.
(N95 masks are effective for tiny smoke particles, not just grains of sugar-sized ones. It's other masks like surgical masks that are not useful.)

https://www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/n95-respirator-mask-coronavirus
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahaelle/2020/02/29/no-you-do-not-need-face-masks-for-coronavirus-they-might-increase-your-infection-risk/

The US Surgeon General's admonition to "STOP BUYING MASKS!" is in part predicated on that now they're all sold out and unavailable for healthcare workers.

But even those of us who already have them are being told to only use them when with infected individuals, or if we ourselves are infected to protect others.

Because they increase risk in various ways:
It makes breathing more difficult, people mostly don't fit them properly, and they lead to an increased amount of face-touching which all present risk.

Good ideas:
Wash your hands a lot (including, if you wear a mask, before and after putting it on/taking it off).

Train yourself not to touch your face (harder than it sounds, people unknowingly do this exponentially more than they realize).

Clean often-touched surfaces.

Given that it's been community spread in my area, I'm also taking some immune-boosting supplements. And isolating as convenient.

Fubar @141: Bwahahahaha! Wine pairings with cunnilingus! You, sir, win the internet for today. :D

Love to you all in Seattle.

It’s true, our genitals do seem to be named in sections. I just call that area of my body the folds or clit and her sisters.

@141 fubar: I second BiDanFan's nomination for your winning this SL comment thread.
Wine pairings? You caught my attention!
@150 LavaGirl: You and others are fortunate to have such beautiful, harmonious bodies. I'm feeling better today, and seeing my gynecologist on Thursday to do something about Chris Hargenson, Norma Watson, Helen Shyres, and the rest of the internal bitches plaguing my system. I've named mine after the bitches in the girls' locker room taunting Carrie White (i.e.: "Plug it up! Plug it up!' PLUG IT UP!' PLUG IT UP!") . Maybe through telekinesis I can forever burn their gymnasium on prom night.

@149 LavaGirl: Big hugs, love, positrons, and VW beeps right back at you, Lava!

Good luck at the doctor's, Griz. And new column tomorrow -- that will be nice, particularly with no letters to entertain us this week, not even reruns!

Do we ever become harmonious with such a task? I a lot of the time resented the whole darn process. Not being able to tolerate any oral birth control or iud, I was thrown by the wind of my body and stupidity. What a journey. I think it’s making peace with what and who we are. Not seeing being a woman as being a burden, though c’mon all those yrs and all that blood and babies
plus hearing complaints from clueless men, we have cause to complain. Not fair nature, we got the harder side of the story here. You sexist non entity.

Grizelda. Good you’re off to the gyno Dr., hope your pain can be eased. More hugs.

Good luck Griz.

Curious2 @146: I was referring to what I’d read about those other masks The N95 sounds useful if used properly, in the right circumstances. I’ve seen them at Home Depot in the paint department.

It’s astonishing and alarming that big companies, including the Seattle behemoths, are shutting down travel, while the stock market is imploding like never before. Trump takes credit for the US economy, right?

I’ve been travelling this week, and hand sanitizing like mad. I figure it’s only a matter of time though, and your point about boosting immunity is a good one. Unfortunately it seems to be a topic that’s inundated with bullshit; I have a feeling that most of the supplements are snake oil.

Griz @143: Not at all. I’ve raised daughters.

BDF @147, Griz @151: Thanks :)

In the Joke's On Me category, I was nearly through a video this morning comparing the new Emma film to Ms Paltrow's, paying the reviewer the compliment of attention, agreeing a little, making mandatory deductions for her misspelling Knightley (she omitted the E), discussing the casting of Robert Martin but omitting that of Jane Fairfax, and completely missing the importance of Three Things Very Dull Indeed. The presenter did have some good points, particularly the interesting angle of the film's presenting Mr Knightley's being gotten into his period outfit. I was in the middle of a good paragraph about how Miss Austen's comment about Emma's being "a heroine nobody but myself will much like" fit alongside her expectation that the novel would appear deficient in wit to those with a preference for Pride and Prejudice and deficient in sense to those with a preference for Mansfield Park. Then, of course - my internet went out. I could have copied and saved the comment for when I got back on later, but it felt as if the moment had been spoiled.

Cocky @156, beards are a matter of preference. If someone bursting with enough cis male privilege to do so chooses to grow a beard, surely that beard should thicken his skin enough to take a bit of ribbing about it? Nobody's world (least of all yours) will come to an end if I don't want to snog you. So, no, I don't make the same sorts of comments about the natural hair of people of colour (who don't get to choose how their hair comes out of their heads), nor about the grooming choices of women, which don't bother me any which way, but which are the subject of immense societal pressure. Big difference. I support your, and anyone's, right to be a proud lover of bearded men, without any need for defensiveness about it!

@156 cocky
"backward attitudes and comments about beards"

I don't think I made any such comment (I forget, did anyone?), but just in case, I'll venture that my response to Ricardo@106's

"hipsters (yes, there still are some of those) whose beard is central to their whole personality (whatever that says about them)."

would be that it would be foolish for them, too, to die instead of shaving to fit a mask.

And the experiment could do them good; people for whom their physicality is "central to their whole personality" are resting upon a fragile foundation, since physicality is impermanent.

Cocky @156: I’m a bearded man, but I’m bursting with enough (Dominant, white) cis male privilege that declarations of distain for facial hair go unnoticed. This is, after all, the nature of privilege.

I can't wait for beards to not be trendy anymore, man. But while one of my exes had a beard that I found bearable, I had to go on a kissing Lysistrata when he grew a really gnarly playoff beard one time. That is my suggestion for the LW.

@158 fubar
"I have a feeling that most of the supplements are snake oil."

I'm in no way qualified to offer medical advice, so perhaps someone else can say something helpful. (Reading about most things biological or medical bores me too much.)

So I see only the best practitioners (and luckily live in the SF Bay area).

I saw evidence of my immunity being raised (in the form of lab testing for neutrophils) dramatically thanks to an herbal formula prescribed by my expert Chinese herbalist.

I'm also an amateur western herbalist, and have been watching those experts' recent recommendations. At the moment I'm also taking (absolutely delicious!) Black Elderberry Syrup.

cbu @156: at least you can walk around with hair on your face. For a woman, if there are hairs on our legs and underarms, which is the case for me, the world looks on in horror, disapproval, it’s something judgey. People have their preferences re what they like to see.

I’d be worried about what might lodge in a beard I had on my face, especially around giving oral. Microscopic particles hidden in the matt. Lucky it’s never been an issue for me, because shaving everyday must be a bit of a drag.
Wear your body how you want to, and your body hair. Always people out there who will dig one’s aesthetic and people who won’t.

@165 LavaGirl
" if there are hairs on our legs and underarms...the world looks on in horror"

Thank goodness I live in the SF Bay Area so that that sounds to me like a message from the 1950s.

@153 BiDanFan:Many thanks. I hope to get much needed medical answers soon.
@155 LavaGirl: I ran into my gynecologist while at the grocery store (still seeing her on Thursday). She says there may be a pill I can take to end the chronic misery. My VA PTSD therapist believes that my nightmare of an internal reproductive system is genetic and that the VA could authorize a hysterectomy if push comes to shove. But I would have to travel to the Seattle VA hospital to have it done.
@156 cockyballsup: I have more issue with any unwanted hair on my own face and body more than with men's beards, unless they're scruffy and unkempt (i.e.: the Robertson clan of Duck Dynasty). I wouldn't place you in that category. You sound like you maintain good hygiene.
@157 and @158 fubar: Thank you and bless you for understanding. I know your daughters must appreciate it, too.
@169 cockyballsup: WA-HOOOOOO!!!! Congrats on scoring this week's Double Whammy (Lucky @69 Award + Big Hunsky @100 = @169). Savor the highly envied glory that can only be found in SL. :)

cbu @169.. oh, double luck for you.. point taken. When my husband grew a beard I never asked him to shave it off, his face his business. Sure. Luckily he went thru phases so I got to see him clean shaven too. I would never to a man’s face try to influence his ‘hair’ behaviours, because I’d not allow any influence over mine. He might demand I cut my couple of dreads off.

@169 cocky
"my older woman friends have told me to my face they don't like it. And I think it is creepy as hell of them"

I wasn't there so I leave it to you to have read their tone and body language.

But still, I wonder if this isn't some bigger issue WRT them and/or their friendship with you. (For starters because with the wrong tone and/or body language it would indeed be insulting.)

I can OTOH imagine them expressing how they personally feel about the look of your beard without implying it was in any way significant how /they/ feel about it. I mean, IIRC you're gay and you said they're "friends", so how would whether your beard looks good to /them/ even matter? So I can imagine them thinking it was just small talk, such as liking the weather or not liking a flavor of ice cream or something. (It's not like they're talking about the inner you, they're just talking about some hair on your face, about which perhaps they might think their preference would be immaterial to you.)

That you used the word "creepy" also made me wonder whether the relationship you have with them somehow involves them being attracted (in vain) to you in a way that they like and you value.

@173 cocky
"Wouldn't you consider it creepy of a guy to criticize a platonic woman friend's grooming or clothing choices?"

Good question. I'd absolutely consider it very rude, and yes in a sense creepy.

@174 cocky
"trying to assert some kind of ownership over me"

Yes that would be creepy, at least in a power-dynamics sense. Thanks for addressing my concern that it might flow from some kind of "hidden investment in vain attraction"; that could absolutely be a factor that might not be healthy, and could be Creepy with a capital C. (Or, if everyone involved wanted to have fun with it and keep it light, could be good-humored honesty.)