Savage Love

Spit and Polish

Comments

1

Woohoo! I did it Griz...

2

Now I forgot what I was going to say. Damn you, MaryJane...

3

WTF does a beard smell like? Other than what gets on it, which is the same for skin (which produces the subum and sweat and houses the bacteria responsible for most smells associated with people, beard or no), and can(/should) be regularly washed off.

INAPT: You're ready to fall in love again whenever you happen to do so; it's not really something anyone can predict (or hedge against - see all of the letters of people who promised themselves/primary partners/casual partners/etc. they wouldnht and did anyway), so you should probably stop worrying so much about that and roll with whatever life serves you. Best advice for any/all women of any/all persuasion is to ask out people in whom you're interested (also for men, but our cultural scripts demand the latter and proscribe the former, so it's not generally necessary to say). You're overthinking this; a date isn't a promise of anything more than whatever constitutes the date (and not even that - you can bail at any time), so just start there with people you find attractive and see how you're feeling about the particular person in the particular context you're with zir, and go from there. You're a lot less likely to flash back to your ex when you're actually attracted to someone new (I suspect you're doing that on your own because you're on your own, which you know even when youhre watching porn, fantasizing, etc.); just go for it.

4

@1: WA-HOOOOOOO!!!!! Congrats to TurbosDad for scoring this week's installment of Savage Love: Spit and Polish "FIRDT!" Award! Savor the envied glory of leading us off in the comment threads.:)

5

SHAVE should buy his husband some beard oil. Hubby's beard will be smooth and silky, and best of all, hubby's beard will smell like a pirate's.

6

The Great Joe Newton strikes again! Of course kitties don't like getting soaked.

7

It's lame af when your partner makes themself repellant to you. Mine used to have beautiful silky long hair, it felt so sensual and thrilling against my skin in bed I used to love it. Then he decided to turn it into disgusting dreadlocks. Scratchy, ugly, dirty, skinny white guy, straight hair embarrassing dreadlocks. What a turn off. He ended up catching lice in them a few times, can you imagine. And he develpped dandruff. It was never the same after that although I did accept that it was his hair and what he wanted so I stopped being negative about it. I never understood why he felt they were more important than having a strong mutual attraction though.

8

SOAKED might also want to consider hypnosis as another strategy to get over her squicky feelings around bodily effluence.

9

Spit all over her face? SOAKED sounds like a trouper. GGG award for her! I would also suggest flavoured lube or something else tasty like chocolate syrup to make her blowjob experience more enjoyable. And, for now, coming in her mouth is off the table. If she knows he won't be ejaculating into her mouth or onto her face, she may be able to relax and continue until he comes. Then when she gets used to that, she could try taking the load in her mouth but spitting, and if she can learn to enjoy that, swallowing it. Good luck, SOAKED.

SHAVE: "I miss the good old days when the only beards gay dudes had were metaphorical." Ha! Dan, you have competition. SHAVE, agree that if you don't want to snog or shag a bearded dude that's your prerogative. If he says he doesn't plan to keep it forever, good. Tell him you'll be waiting to pick up where you left off when he gets bored of it.

At the risk of incurring the wrath of Harriet, INAPT sounds like she should be seeing a therapist instead of getting drunk and making what are sure to be bad sexual choices. There is a vast gulf between falling in love and rough casual sex. If her problem is that when she fantasises about playful, romantic sex, she only remembers the ex, why not try to overlay new memories of playful, romantic sex with FWBs? INAPT doesn't come across as being in good working order to date, and that includes "dating" for the purpose of sex only. She might be better off risking crying on the shoulder of a therapist and/or a sex worker, until she can process this breakup.

10

@5 "and best of all, hubby's beard will smell like a pirate's"

If that's the best part of it, I don't even want to try imagining the worst.

11

Ms Fan - wrong sort of competition. That was a ghastly joke. While I have often been tempted to blame the beard phenomenon on Bjorn Borg and his superstitious belief that it brought him good luck to stop shaving during Wimbledon, I'd gladly contract for beards (which I don't think suit many people) on 95% of the faces of the population if it meant the total end to the dangerous remnants of the closet still in force.

12

Soaked: there are things called hand towels that you can keep handy during a blowjob that can be used during a bj to wipe your mouth, face, hands and even his cock if it's too wet and then return to sucking.

13

I guess it's important to some whether or not they have a beard, but I couldn't care less. I happily do or don't depending upon the preference of partners.

14

The blowjobee has an absolute obligation to announce or signal impending orgasm, to let the blowjober decide where the spunk goes. To some a big load of spunk to the back of the throat is never going to work. Blowjobee, count your blessings!

15

I disagree with Friartuck's advice @12 re hand towels. SOAKED's husband likes it sloppy and nasty, and SOAKED says "I wish I could change my thinking around it," so that seems like a better approach than sanitizing her husband's fun.

I like to keep in mind the joke "sex is only dirty and disgusting if you're doing it right."

As far as how to change her thinking... familiarization and positive reinforcement are probably things to try. That means getting her husband on board with giving her lots of warm praise and orgasms for every baby step she takes towards embracing the slobbery aspects.

Take it slow so you don't build more negative associations, but he should be happy to give you an extra orgasm each time you handle a bit more drool or other fluids.

And if he's stingy with praise or orgasms, then you have bigger problems than a different preference in bj technique.

16

An oversized condom with a bit of lube ON THE INSIDE may accommodate both b-jee and b-jer alike.
(Which made me think of those Australian brothers turned major disco nuisance- The Bee Jizz)

17

I feel like SOAKED has done her part by learning to give and even enjoy giving blowjobs, and her partner needs to meet her halfway here. If sloppy, come-in-her-mouth blowjobs are so very important to him, after she's already done work to be GGG and make real effort for his pleasure but it's not enough for him, then he should do the decent thing and break up with her now.

18

SOAKED seems to be giving it the old college try. I wonder what hubby is doing for her?

20

@17: But, but, but... love! So much love!

21

@10: What could smell better than gunpowder, rope, and rum?

23

On blowjobs, I will confess that I am also not a natural and enthusiastic cocksucker (although I no doubt used a psycho-sexual sub-Freudian theory of sexual repression to excuse myself, rather than the Andrea Dworkin school of feminist prudery, - it is what it is, SOAKED, whatever excuse we use). I have, however, with some practice, managed to train myself to go full on for about 15-20 minutes, which I can usually do maybe twice in the average hay-roll. Mostly, my partners accept that they get intense but short blowjobs every time we shag. But every now and then, when the wind is in the east and Venus aligns with the stars, I actually do manage to relax and really enjoy sucking a cock, wet face and cum and all. And if hubby ever complains that he only gets one or two spectacular, dirty blowjobs a year, remind him of the Bard's words "If all the year were playing holidays, to sport would be as tedious as work, but when they seldom come, they wished for come, and nothing pleaseth but rare accidents."

24

There is an obvious compromise for SHAVED and his beardy husband - since time immemorial, gays who wanted to butch up with facial hair while still looking gayer than a Judy Garland movie simply grow a luxuriant, flamboyant moustache that requires as much maintenance as both growing a beard and daily shaving. I favour a thin handle-bar myself, but any style apart from a Chaplin is fine.

25

I feel for INAPT - first love is like chicken pox, best suffered young and quickly forgotten, and with potentially serious complications when contracted in full adulthood. I was 30 when I first fell in loveland it damn near killed mer. The actual affair lasted about nine months, and failed because I was a touch intense in my needs. After he dumped me, I went a bit mental, complete with too much booze, long walks through deserted streets after midnight, a couple of late night drunk calls, miserable fantasies in which he would suddenly realise how much he needed me, desultory sex with men who were not him, even a half-hearted attempt to win him back by sending unexpected gifts, which, in hindsight, was on the crazed stalker side of crazy street, although happily, actual stalking proved to be far more work than I was prepared to put in. One day, over a year after our breakup, I was on a train from Lithgow to Sydney, and pulled out my phone to compose a maudlin text message assuring him of my eternal devotion despite his cruelty, when I realised with the force of revelation that this guy was in no way worth madness. I deleted his number, put my phone away, and moved on. I did a get a fairly good poem out of the experience, which listed all the things that won't help heal a broken heart, until the one thing that will, time, takes effect.

26

It sounds like SOAKED is being a trooper. I've never understood the feeling that a partner has to swallow. I can say that the intensity of the build up is lessened when moving from getting a blow job to a hand job (my hand or her hand) but I could care less if my partner spits or swallows. Whatever works for her, is good for me. Fuck, she can spit it back on me for all I care. A showers will fix that mess.

27

Mine too cbu, @22. Except I wasn’t a teenager. Borg and McEnroe were always a great performance.

28

EricaP @15, I agree. He likes his blowjobs sloppy; "make them less sloppy" won't solve their problem. And Victorian @17, wow! She's doing her best to get over her hangups and make blowjobs fun for him and you say he should dump her for it? Cold, man, cold.

Dadddy @19, are you volunteering? ;) That's actually not a bad idea. She should be open about just being out of a relationship and fragile, and she should meet first for a sex- and booze-free coffee date so that she can gauge (so that they can gauge) whether he's likely to be compassionate and considerate. Then on their second date, she could limit herself to two nerve-relaxing drinks instead of "getting drunk." Dutch courage is one thing, losing control of oneself is quite another. As is a cathartic post-breakup binge, but if she needs to regularly drink to excess to "feel all her feelings" then I'm seeing a booze-soaked red flag.

29

Pan @25, what a beautiful post. Thank you.

30

@ 23 A 15 - 20 minute blowjob is not a short blowjob.

31

No, it isn't. I am a generous and giving lover, not only to my partners but also to myself - I said about 15-20 minutes, which usually means I starting watching the clock at 8 minutes in and wind up at 12 minutes or so. So, about 15 minutes, and up to 20 as a kindness to my ego. I am far from the only person to exaggerate a lover's skill to spare his blushes, and I reckon I deserve to be as kind to myself as I am to others.

32

Pan @31, an eight-minute blowjob is not a short blowjob either!

33

Pan @ 31 - Just to let you know: no matter how good the blower, some of us get bored after 5 minutes on the receiving end.

34

223, 25: Pan Sapien, thanks for these comments. I really appreciate your input.

Possible compromise for the woman who hates sloppy blowjobs: keep the hand towel near the bed, and know that it's there when or if she needs it. Perhaps just knowing that it's there and can be used if things get too gross for her, will make her feel a bit more relaxed and she may not need to use it after all.

35

Really? 5 minute quickies are the blowjob average? How embarrassing. I will note that I am talking here not about a lunchtime blow'n'go in the office restroom on a busy day, but about the oral component of a lazy weekend fuck-a-thon. In these situations, I enjoy my partner using his mouth not just on my dick, but also roaming widely across my erogenous zones. Most of my regular partners have done this for 20 or more minutes before its time for a joint and a pivot to fucking. And, look, the situation was a bit different when I was 20 years younger and could basically cum if I thought of something hot enough. Nowadays, it takes a bit more stimulation and the joint breaks are heralded by the cry "Fuck, my knees. I've got to move.'

36

Also, very glad you enjoyed my story, BDF. Cheers.

37

I will nevertheless stick to my advice for poor SOAKED - half-arse the job as much as possible, and enjoy those times when you get caught up in the moment and blow him like, well, like many of the men I have had the great good fortune to fuck.

38

Pan @ 35 - Five minutes of blowjob (repeated a couple of times) as part of a total-body oral exploration before a joint and a good fucking (hopefully reciprocal) is, I would say, plenty.

I didn't say it was the average, though. I'm just not good at being the passive recipient of anything, so if I'm not actively participating, my mind drifts off and the magic is broken. And I know I'm not alone in this.

Also: I much prefer having my balls than my dick licked and sucked. Not everyone's got the same erogenous zones.

39

Five minutes sounds about right Ricardo, for cocksucking. Calling it a blowjob implies it goes on till the man ejaculates. Yet, where is a similar word for oral on a woman? Once again, sexist attitudes seeping thru our language.
LW1, do what is comfortable for you. Ok? I know it’s a radical idea for us women, to have the sex we enjoy. Must be a compromise in there somewhere, where you aren’t suffering.

40

A new word is needed to describe a woman receiving oral, till she orgasms. See how men like having that expectation over their heads.

41

“ What, your tongue is sore, you’re getting lock jaw.. tough mate.. keep on, I’m nearly there.”

43

@9. Bi. I have to confess that therapy didn't either cross my mind here, either for or against.

My actual advice for INAPT would be to answer her question--'the risk' of not doing the things she wants to do is higher than the risk of doing them and having them come out that they hurt her, or have a bad effect e.g. meeting a hook-up who is threatening or violent, or getting emotionally involved with someone not interested in her. Yes, of course, those risks exist--but the regrets people tend to have at the end of their lives are about the things they DIDN'T do. She sounds as if she is a rather risk-averse person anyway--I'd guess she would choose a casual sex partner who isn't going to pose those kinds of threats (to the extent that anyone can make that choice). It won't necessarily go well; but if it does go well, it will be great sex, great, engaging, hot, casual sex! You will enjoy doing it, you will have done it, and you will know more what you like for next time, including next time you want to get more serious. The balance of risks is on this side.

44

@17. victorian platypus. Yes. When he 'confronted' her about not getting blowjobs, I thought he wasn't communicating well. Some kind of low-stakes, friendly talk about 'what's on the menu?'--is more reasonable as a way of framing the expectations of giver and receiver (in different contexts). @18 Donny--yes as well.

@22. cockyballsup. I didn't know porn films had endings. They could all end with a Bernie Sanders informercial--and I have no doubt that some of them, for some people of some ... persuasions do--and I would be none the wiser.

@25. Pan. I'd encourage her not to set too much store by the fact she was in her late 20s when she had her first relationship. It's the future she should look forward to. She can have many more relationships--meaning, as she likes, many more sexual partners or much more sex in a few (or one) fulfilling relationship(s).

@39. Lava. I agree that five minutes is about right, and maybe even long, rather than short. This seems

46

@Dadddy @42: "Neither be cynical about love, for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment, it is perennial as the grass." (The Desiderata.)

I'm gonna be all brave and post this without first googling to make sure I remembered it correctly...if not, I'll fix it in a sec.

47

Several things resonate here with me -- I fear I have a unconquerable gag reflex and that when I start having sex I'll be unable to give orally, I generally dislike facial hair on men but feel complicated about having an opinion like that, and I'm late and still waiting to bloom in terms of sexual relationships.

The gag reflex thing is pretty intense for me. I've always had a sensitive stomach, but the extremity of it nowadays is I think because I've spent so many years taking so many pills every day (I take 13-14 pills every morning, a couple of which look almost like horse pills, and two every night). I can actually make myself throw up just by thinking about taking pills. It's amazing I don't barf all over myself every morning (I occasionally do). (And yes, all of the things I'm on are necessary. Many are supplements I take based on deficiencies and a mutation identified by pharmacogenetic testing, and I can't combine them or take a multivitamin because there are things in multivitamins that will interfere with the absorption of other things because of my mutation.) I also have a lot of sensitivity to textures in my mouth -- I avoid meat most of the time unless it's ground up because it often makes me gag. I can't deal with bad smells or cat barf anymore because it easily makes me throw up (which is annoying because I used to really really like doing dissections in biology labs, but I almost threw up last week when the guts of the fish we opened in vertebrate zoology were liquified from freezing and then thawing).

Long story short, I gag a lot and things make me throw up not infrequently, so while I have nothing psychologically against giving oral sex, I'm afraid, for good reason, I think, that I'll be physiologically unable to do so without barfing. I hope this doesn't become yet another barrier to me having healthy sexual and romantic relationships.

The facial hair thing is weird -- it's less like I hate beards and more like I have a strong preference against them. I can still find men with facial hair sexy, but more often than not when they shave I think they look better. I also can't imagine feeling comfortable kissing anyone with stubble. Isn't it uncomfortably scratchy? But at the same time, I don't want to tell anyone what to do with their bodies and grooming. I'm hoping to be able to get away with rarely shaving my legs and never shaving my nether regions (which hasn't been a real issue since I've never dated), so I don't feel like I should have a preference about whether anyone else shaves anything else (I do shave my armpits -- it's just so much less work).

The third LW also brings up fears for me. I don't know how I'm going to handle the dating part of dating, but how am I going to respond to my first breakup? It's hard enough for most people, but with my issues I'm worried such a thing will trigger a lot of dark things that have basically been in remission for me for the last 18 months. At the same time, I don't want to never date anyone out of fear. I want to have a sex life someday, and ideally healthy romantic relationships, too. Ack.

...

There's my novel for this week. Most of it's about barf, so have fun with that, I guess. I've been a little absent for the last couple of weeks, but it's just because my classes have been crazy. I had two orgo lab reports due yesterday and I have two tests and a quiz next week, as well as a quiz tomorrow. So I don't know if I'll be around next week, either. I hope no one's been concerned. I'm fine! Just short on time. Now I have to run to class.

49

@47 Calliope - it's ok to be uncertain of how you will respond to these, as yet, theoretical acts like oral sex. It's easier said than done to say it, but - don't stress yourself out about how you think you might react. For me, it seems like how anticipating a shot is so much worse than actually getting it & the anticipation is what made the experience bad.

Prior to actual (positive) experience many people have found the concept of giving (and especially for use cis-fem types, receiving) oral sex unappealing, which is why Dan's & a lot of commenters' advice to SOAKED is basically exposure therapy. Now, that doesn't always convert a person to being into it, hence SOAKED's attempts to get herself into it and her write-in to Dan, but generally, over time, good experiences, familiarity, leads most people to enjoying giving and/or receiving to various levels of comfort and enthusiasm.

When you are ready to explore intimacy just baby step your way as you go. None of us know what we are doing emotionally or physically when we start; we're all awkward.

As for breaking up, yeah that's hard and I can see your worry. That is the risk we take, however, for the rare joys of love and intimacy. Oxytocin is the most addictive drug in existence for a reason. Just do your best to find someone who will value the gift of knowing you & thereby will act accordingly.

50

@Dadddy, I'm sorry it's been so rough. I tend to think that we have the capacity for heartbreak all through our lives.

@Calliope Muse: There's nothing wrong with saying to a partner, "I have a very strong gag reflex, so although I want to bring you pleasure in lots of ways, I may not be able to give you a blowjob to your satisfaction, but I'll try."
And I dislike most facial hair, too. Especially bushy, unkempt beards. Stubble does feel uncomfortable on my face and mouth area, and on my breasts and thighs and vulva. But an actual beard is pretty soft. I just don't like the look of it.

51

@46 ciods: While I know your response and quotation were meant initially, for Dadddy, that's beautiful! Thank you for sharing.

52

@25 Pan Sapien and @42 Dadddy: Thank you for sharing. What heartbreaking stories.

53

Calliope @47 I love reading what you write. You're a thoughtful and compassionate person. When you're ready to date, I hope you find the same. Heck, I'll volunteer to be your mentor, gate keeper and chaperone. Better yet, enlist one of the female regulars.

I agree with everything that jinxie @49 said. I'd also add that properly maintained cocks are not like fish guts, so make that a hard limit.

One other thought about blow job apprehension: the absolute best head I've ever received was from a woman who was head over heels nuts about doing it. Enthusiastic doesn't begin to describe it. My gay BFF, who has been lobbying to blow me for about 25 years, promises me that this his how gay men feel about cock. That kind of desire may help with the gag reflex.

54

Dadddy @42: Thanks for sharing that. I've been a bit cranky with you in the past; there are a lot of blowhards in the kink scene, and I'd assigned you to that scrap heap based on a few past comments.

Indeed it's great that our hearts are still young enough to fall in love and feel hurt. But it's especially difficult in a D/s relationship - even more so when it's DD/lg - because the relationship is so much more intimate and intense, and the "big D" is supposed to make all the magic happen. Take care of yourself.

55

@47 CalliopeMuse: Although it doesn't cause me to vomit regularly (I'm sorry about your constant barfing) I have a really bad gag reflex, too, stemming from childhood visits to the local dentist. Fast-forward years later to my one bad marriage: my former spouse was not thrilled that I had problems with swallowing his cum whenever I went down on him. I didn't like the taste (like swallowing really thick spit) , stickiness, and, dare I say it, gooey "splorting". I believe this is what has just plain turned me off from giving head altogether, ever since. But that's just me.
@50 nocutename: I agree with you on disliking most facial hair (more on myself than others), and really scruffy, stubbly, unkempt beards.

56

Calliope@47~ Have no fear, you don’t need to swallow a dick all the way down to your toes to give a great blowjob... just suck enthusiastically on the head and hang on for dear life with your hands on the rest. The tip is where the most nerve endings are anyway. Most people gag when something hits the back of the throat, so start shallow and work your way down. And, a big bonus if you can keep on sucking while the guy comes, though you don’t have to swallow, just let it all drain out... and personally, I LOVE it if my gal wants to play with my cum, rub it around on her tits, etc... most guys are pretty visual (that’s why we like porn) so put on a good show and we’ll eat it (and hopefully you) up. And, don’t let a guy get away with just ramming his dick in too far. That’s instant disqualification.

As for breakups... just bear in mind that you hardly EVER find “the forever one” so unless you have incredible luck, relationships come and relationships go. You don’t have to hate someone (or yourself) if they break up when it doesn’t work (unless they’re a real ass about it...and that can usually be mitigated by choosing wisely...basically, don’t date assholes). Breakups hurt, but time wounds all heels, so trust that even if it’s bad, it’s not the end of the world, the sun will come up tomorrow, and in a year or two (or ten) you’ll realize that it wasn’t meant to be and you are better off for getting the chance to find a better match.

58

It’s a puzzle, to me, what nature intended re men’s facial hair. If it’s not cut it grows and grows.
Muse, when you meet a man and things start to move along, talk of your boundaries re any sexual behaviour you are uncomfortable with. Not all men enjoy having their cock’s sucked. Not all women enjoy oral either. Despite what some say, there are no fixed rules around sexual sharing with others. It’s the person in front of you you negotiate with, not every social pressure that’s out there.
Your body, your choice how you use it. Once you hit the runway, you’ll see that it’s ok to stand up to men. Negotiate with men. It sounds way harder out there now than in my youth. I think most of my lovers then were gentlemen and didn’t push and demand.
You’ll toughen up, because it’s inevitable.

59

@44. cocky. The ads The Stranger serves up to me are sometimes aimed at women, sometimes at men--which makes me happy. There's one ad for a gay cruise (in a boat) down the Mississippi. I've always wanted to go on a cruise down the Mississippi, but it looks awful. One theme of the ads is sex. But none, not a single one, of these ads are half as sexy as ALL the ads for Dan Savage's film festival HUMP.

For some reason my post got cut off like a plot-heavy porno last time. But what I was trying to say was that the emerging consensus seemed to be that five minutes seemed long for a BJ.

60

Pan @35: "not just on my dick, but also roaming widely across my erogenous zones." That sounds like you're not talking about a blowjob; you're talking about foreplay. Correct? You would not have a cock in your mouth for 15-20 full minutes. Imagine the lockjaw!

Dadddy @42, I'll go with yes and no. The feelings may be just as intense. But when more experienced, at least one has in one's mind the reminder that one's heart was broken just as badly before, and one did eventually get over it then, so one knows intellectually at least that this too shall pass.

Harriet @43, I'll agree with the general premise that it's better to regret something you have done than something you haven't done. She hasn't had much experience; going out and getting some sounds like a good strategy for her. She says it has been "months" since the breakup -- how many months? Both her focus on alcohol and her still-high emotions were the aspects that suggested to me that a professional might help guide her through this next phase of her life, the sowing of the wild oats.
The other red flag was the focus on "rough" casual sex. She doesn't seem to want this because that's how she likes it, but because tender sex reminds her of the ex. Seeking out strangers to get rough with her is far riskier than seeking out vanilla sex, so I'd advise her to leave the "rough" out of the specification when embarking on this journey.

Harriet @44, I too saw the word "confronted" as a red flag, but I have often seen people misuse the word "confronted" when they just mean "raised an issue," so I'm inclined to give the husband a break without further evidence he's being abusive or unreasonable. Wanting head is a reasonable ask!

Calliope @47, it is possible to give head without the dick coming into contact with one's throat. Some men are quite happy with blowjobs that are literally "giving head," and one can use one's hands on the shaft and balls. Don't let your gag reflex hold you back. A decent lover will let you take it at your pace. Oh, and it's entirely OK to have preferences regarding facial hair! Like Dan says, guys have every right to have beards, and you have every right to not want to snog guys with beards. (I am firmly on Team Clean Shaven myself.)

As for the theory that it's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all, the jury's out on that one for me, too. But as I said to Dadddy, breakups do hurt but we all do get over them, even though it may feel at the time that the pain will last forever. My divorce devastated me -- he was my first love, and we had a number of awful breakups before the final one -- but I did move on, and experienced more love, more joy, and more pain since then. It's part of being human.

Jinxie @49, really? Cis women find the idea of receiving oral sex unappealing?

Lava @58, indeed. If facial hair is not necessary, why do men have it? And if it is necessary, why don't women? I applaud whoever invented the razor. And good point about not all men enjoying blowjobs. Muse, indeed, don't let this fear hold you back. Be up front about your inexperience and fears and a decent man will let you explore at your own pace.

61

We do have little facial hairs Fan, Im sure there’s a reason men have more body hair than women. Modern man may not need to be all hairy and scary, proving whatever it proves to other animals.
Yes. Imagine if nobody had invented the razor or other cutting devices ? We’d all have long flowing hair and men’s faces would be hard to find. Not good planning that one.

62

Not all men are hairy, sure. Only one of my sons has a good hit of body hair. He’s a little more aggressive than the others , has a more solid body type. What does this mean. This is where those who listened in biology classes, if they took such classes, would know.

65

Lava @ 61 - "Im sure there’s a reason men have more body hair than women."

I believe that reason is called testosterone.

Nature had no intention re men’s facial hair. Nature has no intentions at all. Evolution works the other way. If some characteristic (produced by a mutation, as they all are) grants individuals more chances of survival, it's selected for. If it affects their chances of survival, it's selected against (i.e. the individuals tend to die younger and therefore reproduce less, so that characteristic quickly disappears from the gene pool). If it doesn't affect their chances of survival in any way, there's no selective pressure either for or against it; hence, beards.

66

@65 It's also possible that sexual selection is responsible for human male facial hair like it's responsible for human females having permanently enlarged mammary glands. Female mate choice matters in humans, too!

67

https://www.sbs.com.au/topics/science/humans/article/2016/07/25/ask-evolution-why-do-men-have-beards
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20160418-the-real-reason-men-grow-beards

68

@66 Well, yes, but I've always wondered what direction that goes in - do female humans have permanently enlarged mammary glands because male humans like them, or do male humans like them because female humans have them?

A lot of male mammals have more pronounced body hair than their female counterparts, so I'd think it's some kind of side effect of testosterone, or the lion/bison equivalent.

Put me on Team Beard, by the way - I find most men look better with facial hair than without it.

69

Sixty Nine!

70

The BBC article mentioned by curious2 @67 suggests that beards are a sign of dominance. Most (but not all) of the male Doms I know are bearded, while the submissive men are 100% clean shaven.

71

Congrats, Fubar!
And interesting, I have another reason to dislike beards now.

Agony @68: "I find most men look better with facial hair than without it." Isn't that like saying, men are so ugly, they look better with their faces hidden? ;)

72

Calliope @ 66 - True, but a) I wanted to keep my explanation short and b) although the secondary sexual characteristic of body/face hair probably played an important role in sexual selection over the millenia, I don't think beards factor much on that level anymore.

Fubar @ 70 - I would say that beards are a sign of a man having more testosterone, and therefore being perceived as more manly, thus more dominant.

That said, I've noticed in recent years that all the gay men I see who have an abundance of tattoos are bottoms. They seem to try to compensate for being perceived as more feminine (according to traditional views of sexual roles) by giving themselves a "tougher" image. They're also the ones who are more likely to grow a beard, now that it's fashionable. (I am not speaking here of the D/s world, of which I have no first-hand knowledge.)

73

BDF @ 71 - It's not because they're ugly to start with, but because it makes them look more manly, which is very attractive to some of us (although I understand that's not your cup of tea).

On a side note: I find that my attraction to men is highly polarized. I'm either attracted to men with very little body hair (e.g. Latin American men of obvious indigenous background) or to extremely hairy men (hairy back and all). Perhaps it's because I'm somewhere between the two. I'm still trying to explain that to myself.

74

@47
Just confirming what several ppl have stated: the head of my penis is the most sensitive part by far; no reason to go further than you would with a lollipop, and your hands can take care of the rest.

Happy Hunting!

75

Ricardo, @65, I know how I don’t know why. And it’s not in the nature of survival to have mile long hair off one’s head or one’s face.
So when the long haired humans didn’t die off, nature didn’t know it was because we’d gotten cutting implements, so no restriction started on hair growth?
Yes testosterone. Back when, before Facebook and the industrial revolution etc, and here in Australia till only a couple of hundred years ago, humans lived in tribes. /As they still do in parts of the world./ In this context, testosterone really mattered. The men had to fight, with their bodies. Use their bodies skilfully to avoid danger while hunting. I’ve got a book about testosterone which I haven’t read. Must dig it out.
With you on the hairy men. Not so much on their faces. Though I do like a hint of a sideburn.
I notice the sexual messages men send out thru how they play with their facial hair. A full beard often feels like a protection against something. A closely cropped beard can be attractive. Five o’clock shadow, which some men seem to have at all hours in movies, is a very erotic look to me.

76

Harriet, five minutes at least for the whole experience of mouth on a man’s genitals. Little bit of territory to cover with tongue and mouth.
If it’s the tip only of the cock where the real pleasure comes from, why do some men push it down a woman’s throat? Do they really believe choking on cock is an experience a woman seeks. Not this woman.

77

Muse, heartbreak is hard. It humbles us though and forces introspection. If one can get out of bed. It’s grief, and one needs to respect its process and go thru the middle of it. As Dadddy is feeling, it can happen thru out life. The same pain and grief. Death of a loved one. Getting older, injury, losing a job or one’s hair and vitality. Grief is with us thru all these experiences. Letting go and moving on and learning that it’s a mugs game, a lot of it. Wonderful, heartwarming creative and sexy too. We have music and Art. Humans can be so clever.

78

A mug’s game.. Aussie slang. Hard to interpret.
I think a ‘mug’ is always turning down dead end streets. ‘ what. You take me for a mug?’

79

Also Muse, one can fall in love with the wrong for one people. Not just the mind checking things out. The nose, the eyes, overwhelming it can be.
When you find a man you fancy, we’ll be here to help with any issues. If you need it.

80

Breaking up is hard to do, but better to have loved and lost than not to have loved (or, to stick to cliches, never to have loved at all)..

Oh that reminds me. (This is embarrassing.) I just thought Philophile username was just cute and meant her partner was named Phil. I had never heard the word "philophile" before!

81

Lava @ 75 - The point is precisely that there is no "why". There is no guiding hand in evolution, it's all happenstance.

(And I do believe we developed rudimentary cutting tools before we developed nice flowing hair, so it was never an issue.)

82

Survival Is a guiding hand, Ricardo. Interesting, re tools before hair.

83

https://www.thebeaverton.com/2020/02/men-scramble-to-find-a-personality-after-cdc-suggests-shaving-beard-to-stop-coronavirus/

84

Ms Muse - The right examiner will let you choose another of the essay questions.

M?? Harriet - That festival is doing what will prove to be unimaginable harm, but I'm in full Cassandra mode here, and so am quite sure nobody will believe me. A century from now, your spiritual descendants will regret that mine have been eradicated.

Ms Ods - well recalled. The first thing to pop into mind this time was the penultimate section of The Waves, when the various narrators dine at Hampton Court, and wander out afterwards. "Now they vanish," said Louis. "Susan with Bernard. Neville with Jinny. You and I, Rhoda [Louis and Rhoda were the only two of the six ever to become lovers, some sections earlier], stop for a moment by this stone urn. What song shall we hear now that these couples have sought the groves and Jinny, pointing with her gloved hand, pretends to notice the water-lilies, and Susan, who has always loved Bernard, says to him, 'My ruined life, my wasted life.' And Neville, taking Jinny's little hand, with the cherry-coloured finger-nails, by the lake by the moonlit water, cries, 'Love, love,' and she answers, imitating the bird, 'Love, love?' What song do we hear?" [for reference, Bernard was the Everyman, Louis the outsider with his Australian accent, Neville the successful Bloomsbury bu!!er, Susan the Earth Mother, Jinny the brave socialite and Rhoda the neurotic]

85

More dirty face syndrome. Why don’t you love me when I grow my armpits on my face? I just don’t understand I am cool caveman why you no love me no more??

86

@69 fubar: WA-HOOOOO!!!!!! Major congrats for scoring this week's Lucky @69 Award! Savor the highly coveted decadent glory. :)

87

I know that this is veering off topic, but...I am 55 years, 7 months of age and HATE my body. While a uterine ablation 6 years ago blessedly alleviated what used to be severe monthly hemorrhaging and anemia during periods, and all I have now is minimal discharge on an irregular cycle----three, four, five, six, seven, months apart, proving that the end to 43 years of misery is finally coming, but not anywhere soon enough---I STILL have the absolute WORST body pain imaginable. This last week, I could not perform with my flute choir at a church choir function due to lower pain so severe it felt like someone trying to cut me open with a chainsaw. WHY isn't this shit OVER, already?
My mother, oldest sister, gynecologist, and naturopath all have said the same thing: Absolutely NO on my getting a hysterectomy, mainly because it's cost prohibitive, invasive, and permanent. But I'm sick of still having ANY vaginal discharge, no matter how slight! Nobody's pushing me to have a baby anymore (thank heavens), and I'm turning 56 this summer. What I'd really love to do is point a loaded .45 up inside my miserable misogynist bitch of a vagina and pull the trigger so that my uterus, ovaries, and Fallopian tubes all blow up and come out of my body in a bloody, pulpy rush. I'd take these wretched newly severed internal organs, spit on them, shit on them, and chuck them into a dumpster outside my apartment building for rats to gnaw on. And I wouldn't miss them. At. All. Menopause---bring it ON, al-fucking-ready!

I appreciate kind, supportive suggestions and recommendations. Red wine is a depressant and I have to watch my intake as I am in VA PTSD therapy. But a glass of good Cabernet Sauvignon helps. Thoughts? Ideas?

88

Grizelda.. what? Have you been to an acunpunturist? I’m sorry you are experiencing this.. do not do violence to your body. It will pass soon. Western medicine has its place, sure. It’s not all that is available. Seek help elsewhere, please.

89

Therapy sure could help.. hugs to you.

90

@88 & @89 LavaGirl; Thank you and bless you, Lava. I just want my horrid internal reproductive organs removed from my body and this far-too-frequent, 43-years-too-long pain GONE and OVER with. I have emailed my VA PTSD therapist and i am giving the VA Suicide Prevention and Crisis center [1 (800) 273-8255] a call.
I hope I get a female VA counselor on the phone, though. 9 out of 10 male VA counselors I have spoken to have a "don't know / don't care" attitude whenever I have called about my female health problems, because they don't ever have to go through it, themselves. They get all squirmy over the phone, suddenly saying "Er, uh,...umm....they've got other calls waiting...." Or they're so macho and rude you just have to end the call and try again, hoping that someone infinitely more compassionate will answer the phone.
I just feel so depressed.
When the warmer weather comes back my beloved and I are planning a return trip to the San Juans. I could get a massage.

91

Hot baths might help. Hot water bottles over your womb. Yes, this part of a woman’s life is supposed to be not spoken of.. unclean they used to say. Heat is the best thing for the pain, with pain meds yes. Seek out accupunture. It does work, moving the stagnant energies.

92

Yes, massage should help too. More hugs.

93

@91 and @92 LavaGirl: Thank you and bless you, Lava. Your kind words and helpful suggestions have done wonders to calm me down and think more rationally. Instead of calling the VA Suicide Prevention Hotline, I emailed my VA PTSD therapist and she immediately responded.
How can a woman's internal reproductive organs be unclean? Why do so many men (and other women?) think this? If anything, I'm inclined to question the penis and / or feminine hygiene product(s) to be inserted into a vagina. Hot baths do indeed help and are very soothing; I am so blessed that my studio apartment is fully equipped with a tub and shower. I like your idea of trying acupuncture. I know of someone local.
Big hugs, positrons, and VW beeps.
XO,
Griz

94

Good to see Grizelda, that you’ve dealt with the crisis well.

95

Ricardo @73, it was a joke, hence the winkyface. I know everyone has their preferences. I'm not going to get offended that most straight men prefer larger breasts, and I hope no one with a beard or who likes beards is getting offended that I don't like them. (And yes, "because they're manly" is the exact reason.) If we all had the same preferences, life would be boring -- and most of us would be out of luck! And yes, I agree there are men who look better with facial hair than they do without. I can still opt out of kissing them. :)

Lava @77, you're correct that heartbreak is a form of grief. We will lose loved ones to death, and we will lose loved ones to breakup. We are built to carry on living, and to support each other during these tough times.

Curious @80, I got that philophile meant "lover of love" but I thought it was a term that SL had coined herself.

Griz @87, no suggestions, just sympathy that this is dragging on so long for you. I hope it comes to an end soon. Hugs and chocolate.

96

@auntie grizelda
OMG my heart goes out to you!
I've heard cranberry juice might help.

@95 BiDanFan
I was sure surprised when I ran into that word out in the world.

97

Lava @ 82 - Mutations, which drive evolution, are happenstance. Survival is just the filter, and its criteria change along with the environment, so it's not like it has any intentions (which is what I meant to emphasize).

Griz @ 87 - I have no advice to give either; just sending lots of sympathy and love your way.

BDF @ 95 - I knew it was a joke (winky faces are as obvious a sign as one can get). I just used it to further explain my point. (Don't worry, I'll stop now.)

98

BiDanFan @60 - Jinxie wasn't saying all cis women find the idea of receiving oral sex unappealing, but that many do. Conversely, many women love receiving. Women like what they like, and it's not all the same thing because women aren't a hive mind.

LavaGirl @76 "If it’s the tip only of the cock where the real pleasure comes from, why do some men push it down a woman’s throat?" Because some men love the sensations as well as the look & dominance of deep-throating. Men like what they like, and it's not all the same thing because men aren't a hive mind.

99

EricaP @98, she was saying that enough cis women find the idea (before actually experiencing it) unappealing, which was news to me. I know, of course, that some do not enjoy it once they have tried it, and I can imagine many straight women would find the idea of -giving- cunnilingus unappealing, but it seemed strange to me that many cis women would have a negative visceral reaction to the idea of receiving. As someone who doesn't like receiving, what was your attitude towards this prior to experiencing it? Cis women of the board, did you find the idea unappealing before you had a lover to show you what it was like?

100

Yes Ricardo, I know it has no intention, I’d say it’s not happenstance because evolution is about continuing to survive. Continuing to adapt to survive.
Erica, did I say all men behaved that way. No I said some men. I’ve been with enough men to do individuals vary. Men can like what they like, being chocked by cock is what I don’t like, is what I said. And I think a lot of women feel the same yet won’t voice it because it’s what some men like.

101

... enough men to know individuals vary.
Erica, I was asking do these men think women like it.. my focus wasn’t on why they like it. Who gives a fuck why they like it if I’m choking and not enjoying it? Sex is about mutual pleasure, generally, except when negotiations are in place, agreed upon behaviours not just about pleasure. I’m talking average joe here.

102

Lava @ 100 (Congrats!) - But mutations cannot be anything else but happenstance. They simply happen. Some are fatal, some have no sizeable effect, some are positive in that they give their bearer a better chance of survival. But there is no entity that decides what mutations will happen. That's the very definition of happenstance.

103

Now, to get back to what we were actually discussing (i.e. beards), if it's true that beards put men at greater risk of contracting Covid-19 (and any future such virus) as I've read, a lot of bearded men will die, beards will probably cease to be in fashion for a while, and there will be a selective pressure (sexual selection) towards men who have less or no facial hair.

Problem solved for the LW! He can tell his husband that, for fear of infection, he will not tolerate a beard in his relationship.

104

No Creator is what you saying. You can keep your happenstance, Ricardo, behind it, all the fails and successes.. survival is the goal. That’s a form of intention, is my point.
There’s infections everywhere all the time. God knows the germs I meet, and you all meet. Anxiety about this stuff makes one weaker, less able to resist. How about the stock exchange. Jesus. I’ll just put me music on and have a good Sunday. Nice chatting with you, Ricardo. Hugs and love.

105

I've heard that it's common for women to find it appealing because they think it will be unappealing to their partner. In other words kind of a body-image thing thanks to negative cultural messages.

@103 Ricardo
"a lot of bearded men will die"

just the ones too stupid to shave for a mask

106

Curious @ 105 - A lot of people in this world have a beard because their religion mandates it, some because they have facial deformities (or acne scars) that the beard conceals, etc. Those people will be reluctant to shave (especially the religious ones, as they'll literally be damned if they do and damned if they don't). And then you have the trumpsters who believe the enormities he is spreading about the virus, and hipsters (yes, there still are some of those) whose beard is central to their whole personality (whatever that says about them).

Non-judgmental conclusion : A lot of bearded men will die.

Will that better the gene pool? Perhaps. Who knows? We might get rid of the Duck Dynasty clan.

107

@106 Ricardo
Ok, I hadn't thought about some of those categories, but I don't think the people in /any/ of them would not be stupid to die because they fail to shave to fit a mask.

And I meant stupid in the general usage which encompasses foolish.

I would think that any sensible believer would not think god wants them to die because they can't fit a mask.

108

@107 p.s.
And the people in most of those categories were stupid even before the Covid-9 coronavirus existed.