Philo @106, like I said, she was fucking that particular smoker when that particular smoker was a non-smoker. Now that he is a smoker she doesn't want to fuck him. When he quits, I'm sure she'll want to fuck him again. How is this a difficult concept? She has decided it's a dealbreaker, and as she wants to stay married, she's inclined to treat it as a sex-stopping dealbreaker, not a marriage-leaving dealbreaker. Dan's response is that stopping sex might be a marriage-leaving dealbreaker for her husband, so she might have to choose between keeping the dealbreaker and keeping the husband. She doesn't want a sexless marriage, she wants a smokeless marriage. It's within her husband's power to restore the sex by kicking the cigs.

"she's been tolerating the smoking for a year"
She said that he started smoking this year. "This year" could mean 2020, and we are just three months into 2020. So you can't argue that she's been tolerating his smoking for a year and is therefore obligated to continue.

"it works better to accept people as they are th[a]n to plan for them to change." She did accept him as he was -- as an ex-smoker. And then he changed. That's what a dealbreaker is -- it's not a demand for a change, it's a boundary. It's a statement of what one will accept and not accept. The alternative is leave the relationship. If he were an active smoker and they'd just met, she wouldn't have dated him. He's changing the terms of their relationship by starting smoking now. He's the one who's being unreasonable about dealbreakers, not her -- she's merely sticking to the policy she's held all along, which is, she doesn't want to be with a smoker.

"Illegal"? What? We don't know how she phrased her dealbreaker to her then-ex-smoker-boyfriend. We don't know whether she said "I'm glad you quit smoking, because I won't date smokers." We don't know whether she said "If you ever start smoking again, I'll leave you." However she phrased it, she told him that his staying smoke-free was a condition of being in a relationship with him, just as you state. Again, what are we disagreeing about?

"Maybe you painted it pink because someone offered us lots of money if we'd paint our house that way and you were really building our income instead of trying to hurt me." Really? You think someone offered this guy a lot of money to take up smoking again?? These arguments are getting silly. He has no good reason for breaking her dealbreaker, none that he's expressed to her, that we know of. Perhaps he does feel very badly for falling into his old habits due to stress, and wants to quit, and wants her help. Like I said, she should offer him whatever support he needs to quit. That does not include an obligation to fuck him, and indeed, fucking him despite her dealbreaker would be counterproductive to his progress.

I think we are at odds, because she used the word asshole and in your mind, became the villain with that one word. We'll have to agree to differ on whether that's a worse crime than breaking a commitment and endangering one's own health.

Venn @108, I'm sorry this is hitting you in the wallet as well. Good luck weathering this crisis.

Lava@99 Yes, no doubt that is true. But that wasn't my question. I'll take "No. Too busy." for an answer, I guess.

LavaGirl@103 & BiDanFan@104
Aw, thanks. I don't (as far as I know) have Covid-19.

But about a month ago a weird series of events precipitated, for the first time in my life, what I guess might be called an anxiety/fear disorder. I resolved that, then by an unfortunate coincidence something about Covid-19 stoked the flames of this situation again. Just my luck to get an anxiety disorder at a time of anxiety and fear, and isolation. It's unbearable, and I can barely do anything including sleep. Maybe it's just a partial nervous breakdown (or whatever), but I'm circling the drain, folks.

"When he quits, I'm sure she'll want to fuck him again. How is this a difficult concept? "
Because he is not guaranteed to quit. I'm addressing the question of what to do if he does not quit when she asks him to (which seems to have happened?).

I've never argued that she's obliged to tolerate his smoking! I feel like you are don't understand what I've said, but I also feel like you're angry for some reason, this feels more like an interrogation than a discussion so I think this dead horse has been beaten enough.

Curious, I've found meditation and yoga can help with my anxiety. Part of my anxiety has been related to physical injury, so physical therapy exercises help me too. Good luck.

vennominon @105: well, at least you admit that it's all your own personal issues influencing your opinion.

I find the timing curious. Her husband didn't start smoking after 10 years of abstaining until after she started fucking someone else. Passive aggressive behavior? Sex, with SHAM, has suddenly become very important to him now. A hunter gatherer male defending his territory. As BDF pointed he may be into cuckolding or SHAM is being literal "Turns out, he's very into fucking me after I've fucked another dude." He may into hot wife sex. When they started dating, were they exclusive. If not, then he was possibly into cuckolding back then. A kink he wasn't even aware (even now) If his interest in sex declined after they became exclusive then the possibility of being interested in cuckolding increases.

In event SHAM needs to have a serious discussion with her husband. Right now she is engaging in passive aggressive behavior. To be angry without even talking about it is not helpful.

First topic for discussion is why her husband started smoking again. Second topic for discussion is his increased in sex.

Given the arsehole is an erotic zone for some, another word would be more appropriate. We don’t go round calling people a vagina.. oh wait. Yes we do! And it’s the C word. Biggest insult around. Not used here, as a derogatory word.
Lots of words to use instead. Clueless. Vindictive. Jealous. Self absorbed. Etc.
/ wtf is Boris up to, Fan , in GB? Thinks it’s good to let everyone get it! As if one wants such a virus.. my son is over there, he’s healthy enough, I hope. And people going into tents in Italy because hospitals are full.
Given me a good chance to sort thru more of my accumulated stuff. I can’t throw out my social diary material. Magazines thru the decades. My children will be able to burn them, I guess. My real diaries. Which I don’t read. My decades of life in little books.. how much do we want our children to know about us, after we die.
I haven’t read my mother’s stuff. The pictures were painful enough.

Uh oh, curious2: I'm concerned about you--even as I am myself circling the drain. If you want to exchange emails and provide emotional/psychic support, I'm in.

I can't give SHAM a complete free pass. She could've done more during marriage to express her dissatisfaction, but then that is true of most people. Given her sex drive, has she considered having a threesome with her husband and BF. A lot depends on why her husband started smoking again after abstaining for a decade and the why of her husband's new found interest in sex. A threesome is possibly a great carrot/reward for her husband not smoking with added benefit of greatly improving her marriage, particularly marital sex It's just a suggestion.

Well, it's certainly true that a lot of people--particularly those of us who like to think of ourselves as enlightened and not old-fashioned--sound somewhat hypocritical when it comes to our tolerance for cigarettes vs, our tolerance for cannabis. I must admit that I find the smell of cannabis inoffensive and the smell of burning tobacco utter intolerable. I don't know why this is or should be. Very few things disgust me as much as cigarettes do, and I don't know if it's because I have such negative associations with cigarette smoking/smokers or whether there is a significant, measurable difference between the two or that the smell of them operates differently on the senses.

But everyone is entitled to their own preferences and deal breakers.

Mr. Ven, there was a call on the podcast a week or so ago, in which the caller, a woman, was disgusted by her boyfriend's frequent weed use. What she seemed to object to the most was the personality her boyfriend displayed while high: lazy, unmotivated, uninvolved, slightly stupid. I thought that both Dan and his guest expert used the opportunity of her call to take her to task for her dislike of marijuana and the changes it wreaks in her boyfriend. Which I think is wrong. She may not be able to make him change--and it isn't her right to force him to change--but she has the absolute right to not want to be with someone whose behavior while hight is abhorrent to her, particularly if he's frequently high.

Similarly, you have every right to dislike cannabis as much as I dislike tobacco cigarettes, without being lectured or condescended to.

Upon re-reading SHAM's letter, it seems there is so much more going on than merely the fact that for either 3 months or 16 months or somewhere in between, her husband has begun smoking again.

But if I were her, I'd want to know WHY he began smoking again. He's been not smoking for somewhat over 10 years. And he just started? That seems significant. I can think of several possible reasons, but one of them has to do with hanging out--significantly more frequently than before--with a smoker.

As far as his newly amped-up interest in having sex with his wife, it could be motivated by fear and jealousy: fear that since she's getting good sex elsewhere, she'll leave him. It could be that he's a secret cuckold; it could be that he's a not-so-secret hotwife-loving husband. It could be sperm competition. It could be sheer perversity, as it puts the formerly sexually-frustrated-and-deprived wife in the position of now being the one who isn't interested in having sex. This could be a subconscious motivation.

There's so much we don't know. And so much the lw doesn't know.

@101 BiDanFan: Excellent suggestion. I made a donation to the Stranger, too. Since I am working from my home, too I would love to volunteer occasionally online in responding to SL letters--at least on subjects I can personally relate to--but I think that you, Bi, nocutename, Donny, LavaGirl, fubar, CalliopeMuse, Ricardo, vennominon, EricaP, and others would be much better qualified to answer sexually related questions than I would. Especially on kinks.
I have not gotten very much in the way of responses from you or any others lately. I know we are currently in very painfully uncertain times. I hope I haven't pissed you, Dan, or anyone else off. I consider you all to be among my online family.

Dear Auntie Griz, you haven't annoyed me, or probably anyone else here. But like all communities, people give what they can and sometimes that doesn't feel like enough.

I'll second Philophile's suggestion of meditation, and send along good thoughts for you, curious2, nocutename, Mr. Venn, and all others who are suffering during this dreadful period.

curious2 @ 112
Is there an online group you can join? Let me know if I can be of help.

@124 EricaP: Thank you and bless you for responding. I was wondering if my innocent little Savage Love numbers game was beginning to get on everyone's nerves on top of all the highly stressful global issues-- and / or if it has become disruptive to the comment thread(s), however unintentionally.
If nothing else, my numbers game can help serve as a fun diversion, however brief.
May music never die.

Holed up in my studio smoking dope is probably not best practice.. I can’t face this shit straight.
Reading too, I have started a biography of Calder.. the artist who created mobiles .. It’s seven hundred pages long and covers half his life. The second book is published in April, so I’m set for months.

Grizelda, we are family..
Music, it’s my saviour. I’m going to check thru my old 70’s Rolling Stones mags to find articles on Led Zeppelin, seeing I’ve just discovered what amazing musicians there were. Might read a few Hunter S Thompson articles as well.
No way am I getting annoyed with the nos game. It works.. every time I score a lucky no, some magic comes my way. I swear.

@127 & @128 LavaGirl: Bless you, thank you, and big hugs, positrons, and VW beeps.
Zeppelin ROCKS! I just listened to the Beatles' White Album late last night--and 4 sides.
Nasty winds and chilly, frigid weather keep me inside my studio, playing and listening to music. I fully enjoyed an online video of an otherwise cancelled local symphony orchestra concert on my computer today, over a leisurely late breakfast. I have been watching a lot of movies, too, for temporary diversion to help deal with the global issues. It's going to be a John Carpenter night for me. Ghosts and phantom '58 Plymouth Furies.

@101: WA-HOOOOO!!!! Congratulations, BiDanFan, for rightfully scoring this week's Big Hunsky! Bask in the envied glory and savor the SL riches. :)

Geez, they about to close down New York. No end date mentioned.
I think I need to stay off fb, because it’s very unnerving what is going on. This bug sure is lethal. Remember to wash hands well, with soap. It’s the vigorous rubbing which breaks up the little fuckers. Breathe thru your nose, around others. Take VitC, not too many though. Dancing in one’s room will be in vogue for older folks.
And Randy Rainbow has done a parody of the virus crisis.

@131 LavaGirl: Hooboy. New York is closing down? This is sounding more like Stephen KIng's The Stand by the minute......everyone stay warm, healthy, safe...and definitely wash your hands.

Venn @105, except that you're the only one who brought pot into this discussion. So really, in your analogy, you're the anti-gay street preacher who's bothering people for doing nothing more than going about their lives in a way that you disapprove of.

Philo @113, you're correct that I am feeling annoyed, both by my own current coronavirus reality (which has nothing to do with you) and because your posts don't make any sense to me. No, he's not guaranteed to quit if she asks, which indeed I'm sure she has, but that doesn't negate the if/then calculation of her dealbreaker (if he smokes, she doesn't bang him; if he doesn't smoke, she does bang him). One compromise might be that she resumes the sex if he makes a good faith effort to quit, with increased sex promised if he succeeds. If he doesn't want to try, then yes, they seem to be at an impasse whose result is a sexless marriage. Then his choices are to stay for the same reasons she wants to stay, and open the marriage on his side as well (if he hasn't already, which is dubious), or divorce. But yes, I'm failing to understand you, because you seem to simultaneously disagree and agree with me, so let's move on.

Skeptic @116: "Passive aggressive behaviour?" Yes, I thought that too. He has a low sex drive. She wants more sex, begs for nine years, he offers to let her outsource. She finally does, and this makes him, unexpectedly, horny as hell. She gets home from a date and his mind is full of hotwife fantasies, but now she's too tired and sated for sex. Well, if his supposedly high sex drive wife isn't banging him, he may as well take his revenge by doing something she hates. It's one possibility.

Lava @118, speaking of arseholes, don't expect me to explain what our prime minister is thinking. It's utterly ridiculous, those with coronavirus symptoms, even those in at risk categories, are not even being tested. Stiff upper lip, Blitz spirit, that's the approach. Makes me sick.

Nocute @119, good to see you. Sending hugs and support in your direction as well.

Skeptic @118-@120, I don't think we can conclude from the letter either that they haven't had a talk about his smoking and her reaction to it, nor that she didn't do enough to express her dissatisfaction with their monthly sex over the course of their marriage. Facts not in evidence. We do only have her side, and as always she's chosen the facts she found relevant. She is angry, yes, but her anger is justified. Anger seldom helps a partner quit, though, so if that's what she wants, she should find a confined avenue for her venting -- perhaps writing this letter was it -- and approach her husband in a kinder and more supportive manner, standing firm on her dealbreaker but offering sympathy and suggestions to help him quit. I agree that she could combine the stick of no sex with a carrot of fulfilling a fantasy of his, be that a threesome or hotwifing, which he seems to have a new interest in. This has to be something she would enjoy too, otherwise she will continue to resent him for having rewarded him for something he should have been doing anyway.

Nocute @121, aha, perhaps this podcast is the source of Venn's ire. I agree that people can set whatever dealbreakers they want to set. Having a dealbreaker about cigarettes but not pot is not hypocritical, it's just down to personal preferences, just as one might tolerate cigarettes but have a dealbreaker about alcohol, if one was raised by a family of alcoholics. Everyone has their own reasons for what they will and won't accept. I agree dealbreakers should be respected. Sounds like Dan missed the mark.

Griz @130, thank you for bestowing the lucky hunsky on me! Like most of us, I could do with some luck!

Dan said if the LW didn’t want her husband to up and leave, then yes, she might need to have sex with him.
I saw Dan as being pragmatic, given she won’t let the marriage go because of the children.

@133 BiDabFan: I'm happy to bestow it. I think so many of us could do with a dose of good luck. XO, griz :)

I awaken today (which for an insomniac is an achievement in itself!) with new hope I can navigate away from the circling drain.

I have a weekly appointment I schedule online, every Monday a year in advance when the site allows it. When I scheduled my appointment for this week next year, I thought to myself, 'I'll get to go to it, it won't be cancelled, Covid-19 will have been done shutting down the world then'. (I wanna believe. Anyway, nothing lasts forever, which is in itself a great comfort.)

@123 griz
Aw, I'm betting you didn't piss anyone off. Maybe you

"have not gotten very much in the way of responses...lately"

because lately every person on the planet is having such a tough time it's cutting into people's time and emotional bandwidth for reaching out to help others. Maybe all our canoes have a hole in it, and we've just focused on bailing ours out as fast as we can.

@125 CMD
"Is there an online group you can join?"

Hey thanks that's a great idea I hadn't thought of, there's an online Forum for everything!

@124 EricaP
"I'll second Philophile's suggestion of meditation"

Thanks, you two are right of course.

For a long time I've dedicated a great deal of every day to various forms of meditative activity, and lately that's swallowing all my time. I'll try more proper meditation, that's a great idea!

@119 nocutename
"...I am myself circling the drain. If you want to exchange emails and provide emotional/psychic support, I'm in."

Thank you, that is very kind of you!

curious784523@gmail.com

BDF,
I think you were right and this is personal for me and now I think I know why. My ex thought that if he stopped the sex and affection then I might start to do more of what he wanted sexually, but it just resulted in a messy divorce. I thought he was really sexy, he could have seduced me into it, but he gave an ultimatum instead. I felt forced and lost my libido so he filed. C'est la vie.

I hope that makes sense to you, and that you are stocked up and staying safe, and same with your elderly family members.

And I'm happy to know that Lava is dancing in her studio and ok. Virtual hugs.

LW 1 Kegels, Kegels, Kegels. Rear Kegels. Butt Kegels. Clench your butt to strengthen that sphincter. High pucker factor.

And if you want more piece of mind, go through this regime if you have time in advance: Eat lots of fruit and veggies and drink a lot of water Days 2 and 3 in advance to flush the system, then after at least a few hours of fasting eat a big pot of oatmeal about 18 hours in advance of fucking (note: timing varies per individual). That will provide a metabolic plug of much slower action, providing a long window of rectal emptiness for playtime.

About four hours before play, do a plain water enema, then two hours before a basic rectal spritz-out for final cleansing. (Enjoy all this sensual anal time! Use a lubed finger to lead the way.) Usually best to leave things alone for the last couple of hours, to restore rectal mucosa which protects sensitive tissues.

Good one rockyboy, practical tips.
Thanks Philo@137, virtual hugs back to you.
Interesting what you say, because my ex was prone to ultimatums as well. Like the tool from last week. Nothing. gets my back up quicker than ultimatums. It was tried recently by someone in the deep and torturous saga of finalising, ha, my mother’s estate, and I saw red.

Ultimatums don’t work unless there’s money involved, as in business dealings or you really are putting it all on the line. SHAM doesn’t want to do that, she’s not giving up her family.
Compromise is the way forward. Yes. As already mentioned, why now for the smoking? A telling part to this story we have a small portion of, is the LW doesn’t seem to care.
If there is no Love left for your husband, SHAM, telling sign off.. then whatever family you and he create, is shallow. Going thru the motions won’t fool children.
It’s you who has to stop and feel and if you serious about keeping your family, then focus on why your husband has started smoking again. Did it start around the time you got a bf, say? Would some couples therapy help here?
Husband is not staying where he was, and if you want him to stay around, if you want to keep your family, then focus on what the hell is going on between you two.
He ignored you sexually for years. Tell him that.
Kids and family life, as we see here, seem to do that to sex, unless one is proactive. And you weren’t. Why didn’t you deal with this sexual imbalance before children?
Cool it with the bf for a little while, and do the emotional work which needs doing in your marriage, before it crumbles.

I've been visiting a favorite babbling wooded brook, but I just read that in
"...six Bay Area counties...a legal order directing...residents to shelter at home for three weeks beginning March 17. The order limits activity, travel and business functions to only the most essential needs."

https://www.cityofberkeley.info/City_Manager/Press_Releases/2020/2020-03-16-health-officers-order-residents-to-stay-home/

Geez, I've been feeling pretty safe alone in the woods.

@138 Dadddy
Thanks man.

@136 curious2: Thank you for responding, and bless you. Sending big hugs, positrons, and VW beeps your way. :)

BDF @ 133 I agree facts not in evidence. I left out the all important IF. My original comment was "If she hasn't had a discussion with her husband". Maybe it's just me, but in rereading her letter I get the sense that there is and has been a lack of communication. So much rage about smoking and pent up anger about the lack of marital sex.

What I find confusing is why she waited so long to find a BF to fuck. After all she had her husband's explicit permission to find fuck buddies for a long time. She would rather bitch about the lack of sex than actually do something about it? If she had done the sensible thing, would her husband's response have been the same when faced with the reality rather than just the possibility. If so, and it is a BIG if, then she has only herself to blame for all those wasted years.

.

Philo @137, thank you. We all do our projecting here, it can't be helped. I'm sorry that happened in your marriage, but it sounds like your ex husband wasn't a very nice person. I agree sex that is a bargaining chip is not really enjoyable for the bargainer, or the bargainee, which is why I thought having sex with her husband even though it grossed her out was such a bad suggestion. My bias, of course, is that I don't have children, so it is unrelatable for me to think that staying in a marriage while held hostage to obligatory sex that violates one's stated dealbreakers is worse than standing up for them and risking an end to the marriage. My divorce was less messy than my marriage! ;) Hope you and your family are surviving as best you can in the coronavirus lockdown. Virtual hugs to you too.

Lava @142, yes. Ultimatums are useless if you are not prepared to follow up on them. Another reason I think she should stick to her guns, because if she states that smoking is a dealbreaker but then allows it to be broken, it is meaningless, and he will have no incentive to respect it. Agree as well that couples counseling might be the way forward, if she does want to save this marriage. She may see that staying together only for the kids is not the best option after all. Agree as well, why did she marry and breed with a guy who did such a poor job of satisfying her sexual needs? She was only 22 dating a 35-year-old man, perhaps she thought her sex drive would taper off.

Hunter @78, you need something. You seem surprised that in a community that is sex-positive, queer-positive, and demographically varied, you are the only one who sees cases lurking in closets. And that still does not suggest to you that it's you who's missing the mark here? His once-a-month sex drive is easily explained by the fact that some people just have lower sex drives than others. The fact that his wife fucking other men has kicked his sex drive in suggests that he is turned on by hotwifing, not by men. Aren't you the hotwifing expert? Do you think that all cucks are secretly gay? If not, why do you think this one is? You're the one who is being "deliberately deaf" to the fact that these suggestions are unhelpful at best, insulting at worst. Bash people and you get bashed back.

Skeptic @146, I agree that it's not a huge leap to read a lack of communication into this relationship. I agree also that she is partly to blame for letting resentment build up over nine years instead of accepting his offer to open the marriage when he first made it. He gave her a solution, and she didn't accept it. She just continued to be frustrated for nine years, for whatever reason -- I would guess that she's internalised beliefs that monogamy is the only valid structure for a LTR. I agree that in order to move forward, she needs to accept responsibility for accepting the status quo for so long when she had other options. And if Mr SHAM indeed was encouraging her to take other partners, and withholding sex to try to encourage that, because he has a hotwifing fetish he wasn't telling her about, he needs to own up to that too. Off to marriage counselling for these two.

Thank you BDF We seldom agree entirely on things, but that is expected with strong willed people who have opinions. I will, at times grudgingly, acknowledge my mistakes when I am convinced that they are mistakes.

Many times what I write does not really convey what I mean to say. Trying to clarify my intent oft times just digs a deeper hole.

It is easier to admit to ignorance than mistakes.

On a personal note. I hope that safe and well. While there are times when I think of Boris Johnson as Trump's mini me. Luckily for UK, this is not one of them. At least he isn't delusional or in denial about the seriousness of this crisis.

Here I go digging a hole. It is hard/difficult enough for the monogamous. It must be worse for the polyamorous. A Sophie's Choice kind of situation. Having to make that kind of choice is heart wrenching, which is part of the reason I choose to be monogamous.

It would seem that the whole substance of SHAM's marriage--anything good about it--is bound up with her children and their co-parenting. (He could support the family financially; or he could be a better parent than he is a husband). Even if both want to stay together--and for whatever reason e.g. just for reasons of social respectability--this doesn't seem to be an especially sustainable or livable situation. At the moment she throws off a casual term for him--'the asshole'. It is bad, it seems almost undeniably bad, for more than just the two of them that she sees him in this way. It's probably bad for her kids, and also for her and his parents, siblings and close friends.

Rather than fining down her issues to one question of sexual ethics (should she fuck him?), I'd say she should step back and review the bigger picture. The question I'd want answering is, why, as newlyweds, did they have sex no more than once a month? Does he not find her attractive? Did he at once consider the marriage a mistake? Was he seeing other women (/men)? There is a need here to live in the light of the truth. They still get on sufficiently well, and are sufficiently adult, for her to be having sex with her boyfriend and not with her husband and for the marriage to be basically functional. (Though one would have to ask 'for how long?'). The comments I've seen have been indignant on SHAM's behalf, saying--correctly--that she isn't obliged to have sex with her husband if she doesn't want to. The comments haven't, really, asked her, 'what do you want?'--e.g. why is your husband a better bet as a coparent than your boyfriend or someone else? Why is he a better bet as someone to cohabit with? Until SHAM can answer these questions, I feel the degree I wholeheartedly and empathically inhabit her position has to be limited.

@18. Bi. Difference is kids.

@37 Lava . Yes. That is the bigger picture.

@45. dumnogenus. I think it's helpful that you've said you've been in the guy's position and not found it disgusting. (Without being a scat enthusiast, I didn't find it disgusting).

@50. Traffic. I find it hard to imagine SHAM's husband isn't unhappy, even distressed. Has he taken up smoking again because he enjoys it? I doubt it. I'm not quite clear what happened first: her finding a bf, or his resuming the habit? Did he start again because he fears he'll lose her? Is he offering sex again because he fears hel'll lose her? As in, he's asexual or very low-sexed?

Does she think her marriage was always a 'SHAM'? Was it an arrangement of convenience, on the sexual side, in order to have kids?

@93. Philophile. Well, she could hold to her 'no smoking' rule as either a sex dealbreaker or a relationship dealbreaker. At the moment it would appear that she's holding to it as a sex dealbreaker.

Skeptic @148, if I agreed with everyone about everything, this wouldn't be as interesting a place for discussion! We all have different perspectives based on our experiences. Another phenomenon is that our words rarely come out on the screen as clear as they are in our heads, this certainly goes for me. I think the exceptions may be EmmaLiz and NoCuteName who have a talent for always making perfect sense! But there frequently are thoughts in my head which fail to make it into my posts accurately, or at all. No one but me knows what I meant to say, only what I did say! :)

Skeptic @149: Could you clarify what you meant by "It is hard/difficult enough for the monogamous. It must be worse for the polyamorous"? This could apply to so many situations; are you talking specifically about the SHAMs? I don't understand what choice you're referring to. Monogamy and polyamory are both difficult and rewarding in their own ways; different personalities suit different relationship structures, with ease or difficulty equally dependent on the individuals themselves.

Harriet @150, welcome back. I was just musing that we had not heard from you in a while. You're correct that, aside from wanting him to quit smoking, SHAM does not state what she wants. Is she happy to enjoy life as a hotwife, or has nine years of deprivation led her to be too resentful to enjoy the new sexual attention? In other words, as Reader's Digest used to ask, can this marriage be saved? (Should it?)

BDF - Glad we could reach some understanding.

Skeptic - What's the difference between admitting ignorance or a mistake? They are both natural, inevitable events, it hurts to feel ignorant or mistaken, but I can learn to protect myself and people and everything I care about better...

Nocute, griz, curious, dadddy, lava, hun... wishing you peace and the strength to take what joy you can from life. Part of me is happy that life seems more precious these days, and like it's nice to have a reason to worry.

Harriet - Thank you! What I thought SHAM wanted was to keep living with her husband and children, keep having sex with her boyfriend... and tell her husband that their sex life was over until he stopped smoking again. It was the last part that really bothered me. Also to be willing to stay disgusted by her smoker husband while living under the same roof as their children. Really what should have happened was having a discussion when the smoking started, it could be a sign of an affair or depression or masochism or sadism.. And if they couldn't develop a plan for him to quit, then she has to accept his smoking somehow, by calming down and developing a new sexual deal with her husband or by giving up and leaving. And explain to her children that sometimes people do hurtful things when they care more about feeling good right now than later, so it's important to keep yourself generally calm and healthy and happy to resist temptation, and that addiction makes it hard to quit bad habits when people don't understand the danger and it feels good temporarily, that will protect them better than calling her husband an asshole.

Harriet@152 - I've never heard of a deal breaker meaning an end to sex but not the relationship. Can you give an example you've encountered?

Not what I’m reading skeptic@149. Boris is jumping all over the place. Like with Trump and our bozo PM all three were put into power with much much help from Rupert Murdoch. One of the Arch shit stains of the world. He fed racism/ phobias/ bigotry to the dumb fucks and they lapped it up. Now, now when we need intelligent and empathetic Leaders, these men are not capable.

Good to see you Harriet. Where is Sportlandia ? Did he get fried somewhere along the way?
I don’t always stay on the thread, reading, when wild energies are about. Used to. Got in the muck with youse lot. Age you see, I seek peace mostly now and good music to listen to.
That has been the best part of my near decade as a single and independent woman. I can set real sharp boundaries and there’s no me lost in some mess with a man bending such boundaries.
I get it with SHAM, one puts up with a lot when kids are involved. I don’t read that she hates her husband, except his foul breathe. She’s pissed at him and has she told him that?
Send him to Coventry at least until he doesn’t smoke the whole day before they have sex. Small goals to start with.

Breath. I always need to think with those two words. This time I didn’t.
New reality. How’s everyone doing?

expressing what I meant clearly was difficult, it was not intended to offend
My State just went into lock down
I was watching the news, was thinking about COVID-19 and hoping you were/are safe and well when I wrote the comment

To misquote Samuel Johnson " when a man knows he may be hanged, it concentrates his mind wonderfully"

If I remember correctly, you are a proponent of poly and polyamory

ideally
with monogamy you have one person you love and hopefully fuck
and satisfy
the reality is different
therefore only one loved one to worry about and possibly grieve over

with polyamory you love more than one person and therefore worry about, possibly grieve over
that is always true
but now, if you don't cohabitate you have to choose who you love best, who to be in isolation with
thus Sophie's Choice, to choose which child will live and which child will be murdered

@157 Sportlandia
"Where is Sportlandia? Did he get fried somewhere along the way?"

I was wondering the same thing; seems like 5 weeks or so. Can't say precisely because his account got removed
https://www.thestranger.com/users/23698298/sportlandia

I say removed because self-removal is not possible.

I'm surprised, since that flurry of dozens of other account removals a few months back were always temporary.

5-ish weeks ago I recall him saying something that coulda led to another, but I don't recall it as even being close to the worst something.

/Break/
nocutename, how are you my friend?

Here in the SF Bay Area in my time we had a few periods of hours of shelter-in-place when, say, a toxic cloud got blown our way from a chemical plant or something. But never a legal order or minimum 3 weeks. I can't begin to process it.

But WOW, Rob Brezsney did, check out:
https://freewillastrology.com/horoscopes/archives/2020-03-19
I liked this line: "From San Jose Mayor Sam Liccardo, whose city is at the epicenter of the viral outbreak in the Bay Area of California: "This is our generation’s great test, our moment to stand tougher as a community. Amid our collective fears, we will find our uncommon courage.""

Ms Cute - yes, I did remember that call and response. It's not even a dealbreaker, just for me a larger deduction, and I've nothing to say against anyone's personal relative deductions or dealbreakers. I might not have said anything in the first place but didn't want my only point of the week to be the defection of Ms Scarcella.

Ms Lava - At least they're a noun and a verb of the same thing. For some reason, this reminded me of the Pyramid round when some poor celebrity misread the category DESSERTS and listed the Sahara and the Gobi, then got annoyed when the board didn't turn.

Lava @156, exactly. Boris is bungling this crisis. There will be no testing of suspected cases, and now businesses are being "advised" to close instead of "ordered" to close so his buddies in the insurance industry won't have to pay out on claims. The rest of Europe has handled this much better.

Lava @157, oh no, you said his name, hope you haven't summoned him! I'm quite enjoying this period of freedom from his hateful attacks. Perhaps the last one was the straw that broke the camel's back and he's been permanently banned?

Skeptic @159, it's kind of optimistic to assume that one would have the option of temporarily shacking up with any of one's partners, let alone have a choice of more than one. In practice, self isolation often means just that. You're stuck at home with whoever lives there. It may not be possible to leave one's home indefinitely due to practical considerations like pets, plant watering, collecting mail, actually having to work from home. One of my partners is in a high risk category, I may not be able to see him for weeks! The other is going about his daily business, so if I see him, I won't be able to risk seeing the other without leaving a 14-day window between the two. I read about friends "self" isolating with their cohabitants and seethe with envy, while reminding myself I'm lucky to at least have a pet! And you folks, of course! <3

@162 BiDanFan
"businesses are being "advised" to close instead of "ordered" to close"

Oh no. I feel like Boris needs to be arrested.

"I read about friends "self" isolating with their cohabitants and seethe with envy"

Though I also feel safer to live alone in that this also increases their chances of already having it but not being symptomatic yet.

"while reminding myself I'm lucky to at least have a pet!"

Nice, no pet here.

I haven't heard anything about cats getting coronavirus, and just heard about one dog in China testing positive. So I guess pets aren't inflaming the situation?

Oh, but I haven't seen my neighbor's outdoor cats (or my neighbors) in weeks, I guess they're indoor cats now?

"stuck at home"

I wonder what it will look like when people are free of "stuck". That will be a very happy day.

@162 BiDanFan
"One of my partners is in a high risk category, I may not be able to see him for weeks! The other is going about his daily business, so if I see him, I won't be able to risk seeing the other without leaving a 14-day window between the two."

Aaargh that does sound rough.

OTOH, speaking as a single person I envy you having someones to feel isolated /from/.

@164 p.s.
Wait, I think I could've better said something like that...

You will have someones to have been isolated from.

BDF I was going to try and post a comment on the four main isolation situations, if isolation is in fact possible, but It became too convoluted (and confusing by all the secondary effects) when I went beyond the simplest versions. While the permutations are not endless, even addressing the most likely ones would require a full page of comments. Self isolating means voluntarily going into isolation. In many cases that means whole families. With the Chinese, I believe that it wasn't voluntary. Quarantine usually involves unrelated groups or places (as in you quarantine a place that has been contaminated).

Not trying to be argumentative or a smart ass. The qualifier is necessary because it could be read as such. I will be happy for a change of topic. As bad as Boris is, at least he wasn't calling it a hoax or downplaying its seriousness until this week. Sorry, I almost went into a tirade on Trump. He is a rabid germaphobe, but the dumb ass still insists on shaking hands and close contact with people.

Doing my really late check-in from north of the border. The best news for shoppers is the implementation of emergency legislation against current noise bylaws that will allow delivery trucks and crews to restock stores all night long.

Anyway, back to last week's column. I don't know which would be worse: to have NOSHIT get a shrug from a doctor under universal health care or having to pay for no useful advice.

Before she gets her appointment with a specialist as recommended by Dr. H, she might want to try approaching thes from a death-grip syndrome perspective. She's trained herself to get off relying on really vigorous PIV. What if she were to switch to something else just at the onset of orgasmic inevitability (I'm thinking of a strong vibe against her clit or perineum) to see if she can retain most of the fun without the risk of the mess.

Another possibility would be to get a pair of black PVC crotchless panties with a wider opening at the front for easy PIV. Wear them along with a butt plug to see if the plug will allow her the muscle spasms but prevent any shit from escaping. If any does, she can wash the panties easily. But at least she can try to see whether she can save the orgasm.

The other advice when speaking to a specialist (perhaps several) is to record her speech about symptoms. She can practise and record it at home, then just press PLAY in front of the doc. One less annoying thing to deal with.

@167 Helenka
"The best news for shoppers is the implementation of emergency legislation against current noise bylaws that will allow delivery trucks and crews to restock stores all night long."

Sweet! Stores here pretty empty.

@168 (curious2)

::waves energetically from one solitude to another::

Just where is "here" for my perspective?

And WAHOO to me if I scored a lucky whatever double lucky number!

@169 Helenka
Congrats on the lucky number!

I live in the locked-down SF Bay Area, specifically the East Bay. When I do take my immunocompromised 61-year old self outside, I'm amazed that the streets are empty even of traffic at "rush" hour.

It was cool seeing Italians all singing together from distance, but I don't think I'll risk even that, wind makes me nervous now.

@170 p.s.
I guess we're 'sheltered-in-place' not locked down since essential workers can still take buses. Not that we at-risk people want to even think of a bus.

The tone of SHAM's letter is really putting me off. Her husband is "the asshole" because he started smoking again after a decade, but the fact that he actually quit what many people experience as a very strong addiction for a decade suggests he wasn't lying and has made an honest effort. Failing to be perfect makes him human, not an asshole, and a hostile approach that casts him as an asshole from the start isn't likely to make him want to try to stop smoking again. And the libido mismatch in a marriage, now with kids, sounds like it's more on her given her own framing: he was upfront from the start that sex "just wasn't that important to him," and he has given her a hall pass for that duration, too. So I don't see this as a case of sexual neglect, since she (at least in her telling, though it may not be entirely accurate) knew for what she was signing up and apparently decided it was a price of admission she was willing to pay in order to form a household and have children.

They should divorce, for the sake of their kids. Growing up in a household with parents who resent each other as much as SHAM appears to from this letter is awful, while there's nothing inherently bad about parents who aren't married. Granted, I'm not sure SHAM should be parenting at all - the attitude in the letter suggests she's the kind of parent who will blame her kids for having needs or desires that don't automagically fit her ideal, as she's already doing that with her husband, but I hope that's less likely if she isn't constantly resenting her husband's behavior because they're no longer living together.