Savage Love Mar 17, 2020 at 4:39 pm


Joe Newton



Mysologophilia would be a potential Greek term for a fetish for dirty talk. myso- is dirt or filth, and logo- is word.

But like you say, it's not a case where the word is going to be all that helpful for explaining to other people.


@1 filthy, dirty words... that makes me think of: Trump, Republican, Mitch McConnell, the 2nd amendment, neoliberalism.


@1 Forky McSpoon: WA-HOOOO!!!! Congratulations on scoring this week's SL FIRDT Award! Bask in the glory of leading our comment thread in Savage Love: Quickies, and Happy, Healthy, and Safe St. Patrick's Day to all. :)
@2 delta35: For the WIN! Thank you for beating me to it.


Thanks for checking in @Dan Savage. This fan is relieved to hear you're okay. Lots of love and good wishes to you and Terry and The Kid; also to everyone else in the commentariat.


Hey Dan, glad you’re still onboard and all at yours are ok. I don’t think I’ve every washed my hands so many times in one day before.
DT, what’s wrong with dirty talk? Says it all.
Pubephilia, that I can relate to. How can anyone shave it off? Crime to me.


I listen to a word\language podcast in which people regularly ask if there is a word to describe a particular concept. It's fun in a nerdy kind of way and sometimes you discover that English doesn't have that word but some other language does and that can be a bit of a thrill. I read this letter as more looking for that than looking to add yet another label to the mix.

And for the LW who's fantasizing about black men, I think you can relax. I presume you had good sex with your ex and the break up is still very raw and recent. It makes sense that you fantasize about the sort of person you associate with sexual pleasure but why you're not in a place where you can fantasize about your ex specifically.


Sometimes masturbation gives us cues. How we feel about it once it’s over does matter, yet same goes to how we got there, the ifs and the buts, evaluating the pleasure, harm and risk factors.
Your attraction to a certain ethnicity and recycling memories of a lover you shared sexy times with are nothing new and should not stand in the way of future orgasms.

I’m baffled by LW3, WBE. A 35 yo who managed to communicate with her lover about opening the relationship, both are actively fucking others and very happy about it, and still unable discuss her engagement with fwb face to face.


CMDwannabe @7, I wonder if WBE has some experience with bad news being poorly received, and so she's nervous about telling this guy what may be seen as bad news. Like, maybe the FWB is new to non-monogamy and she thinks he may have hoped to woo WBE away from her other partner, after they spent more time together. I know, that's a lot of guesswork, but that's what her nervousness about telling him sounds like to me.


Dan the Man: I am in unison with fubar @4, LavaGirl @5, and the rest of the commentariat. I'm so glad to hear that you, Terry, and your son are all okay. Thank you and bless you for your continued Savage Love columns and podcasts. I look forward to reading and when I feel appropriate, responding to each one.
Sending much love to you and everyone---playing music in my studio, writing, watching movies. Sometimes taking short walks.


@2 delta35: The only problem with using such dirty words for me is that it suddenly sounds like a strong disincentive for sex.


Sexy dirty talk to one can be lame or terrifying to others. I would classify this as yet another act one would like to incorporate in their sex life. So while a word specifying such desire may be handy there’s no other way but start a relationship of some sort, sexual or not, and take it from there.


Glad to see you alive and kicking, Dan. Good luck to everyone in this hotspot.


Dan, would you lay off the demisexuals already? What'd they ever do to you? Let them have their word and stop yelling at them to get off your proverbial lawn every other week.


yamikuronue @13: calm down. There has been no yelling.


When working a short-term summer gig years ago, I was fooling around with a totally hot man 10 years my junior (I was 32)... it was incredibly hot, but after that job we didn't really connect on other levels so nothing more happened. But we worked in similar circles and kept running into each other... 8 years after that summer he called me out of the blue (pre-internet) and soon made it clear that it was a booty call. I was THRILLED and we hooked up for a couple months until he moved on.
If the sex was good enough that it happened many times, I bet you that guy would be just as thrilled to get a booty call from you now.


Man, BORE's wife sounds an utter snoozefest. A workaholic alcoholic Mary Kay shill. It couldn't get any more boring, could it? Run like the wind, mate.


BORE says, "She refuses to give up the side hustle and dial back her work or her drinking," which indicates to me that he has talked to her about how unhappy he is and asked her to change some things that would let her spend more time with him, and she's refused. He's miserable and she doesn't care. DTMFA.

DHFBM's relationship ended just two weeks ago? She's still grieving; he's still the only one she's thinking about. If she can't get it up for a non-black man a year from now, that's when she should give this more thought.

Re BOD's parenthetical: Circumcision IS plastic surgery-ish, so I don't know why we should stop saying "uncut." I get it: circumcised cocks are the ones that have been altered; cocks with foreskins should be considered the default. But "natural" sounds insulting to those men who have been circumcised, most of them not by choice. Why not just say with or without a foreskin?

DHFBM should read BOD's letter as an example of how not to objectify men by literally reducing them to body parts. That said, if mutual objectification was a hallmark of their relationship, no harm no foul. BOD, at least pretend you are interested in him as a human being when you send that message -- "how have you been?" rather than "how has your cock been?"


Pretty sure cocks which have been circumcised are natural too, BOD.
Uncut is universal language for uncircumcised. Which is a mouthful. Like his cock eh, Bod?


BOD's foreskin fetish seems to have little to do with his question anyway. Just an opportunity for him to get on a soapbox about his preference. BOD, try moving to Europe, foreskins aplenty. No "unnatural" dicks, other than the ones that are made of silicone.


this column had a little bit of the old-school feel of calling a dumbfuck a dumbfuck. thanks dan!


Huh, I was just about to say what BDF said @19. This doesn't sound like a letter so much as it sounds like Product Placement Promotion. "My boyfriend is so great because he always makes me folger's coffee in the morning - it's the perfect way to wake up!" I mean, what even is the question: "can I look up an old fuck buddy to see if they'd still like to fuck?" Clearly duh, unless you know they got married or otherwise monogamized since your last bang, why not ask? Shoulda just wrote in with their real question of "can we call them 'natural' instead of uncut, and also, can we all agree they're hot?"

For the other ones, yeah, LW1: The word is "dirty talk" so just say you're into dirty talk. Simple.

LW2: clearly you're not happy so sit your wife down and throw down some ultimatums of "if we're not spending more time together I might as well be single." While we're at it, show her some of the MLM videos (some other commenter can link some good ones, maybe) that explain why it's a miserable con.


Intact is a perfectly good word if you don't want to describe a foreskinned cock as being un-anything.


You suggesting then Fan, that a circumcised penis is not intact?


Ms Fan - Yes; I'll agree with "intact". "Natural" feels off because of the invited inference with a comparison to such things as someone's natural hair colour and the involvement of choice in the decision to alter it. (I wonder what tiny proportion of circumcisions is actually consensual; that would make a good quiz show question, though sadly not for the recently retired Mr Sinha.)


Good for any demisexual person who feels better understood because "there's a word for it", but I tremble for the day when many of the newly out demisexuals (and some others of recent vintage) take over the GRSM; it's a little like the fable in which the Fisherman's Wife keeps telling him to make increasingly exorbitant demands on the magic fish he caught until she goes too far and they're back in their shack.


Good for Mr Savage for being able to carry on nearly as normal. I am looking into setting up online lessons during this Great Interval, but am running into a wee snag in that most of those players eager to avail themselves of such a resource clearly think that they all ought to be the F word - in this case, not the one that rhymes with maggot or with luck, but the one that rhymes with tree, which in this case feels rather like the worst F word of all.


Totally off topic here but my wife and I were talking about one of her coworkers, a happily single gal who enjoys the kinkier side of life. We were wondering if the isolation of being home alone all the time would get to her in this Corona Quarantine Universe. It's a hard time to be single person who frequented dating apps since you don't want to spread fluids but you're also at home bored and horny. We were wondering if people like her coworker would be more inclined to find one partner (a Corona Companion if you will) to shack up with and watch TV with and share a can of beans with. Thoughts? Are we going to see a (temporary?) move back to monogamy for those who more typically play the field? Will some of those relationships not be so temporary?


L2 falls into a particular category of letter in which the facts seem quite straightforward, and the most interesting part of the whole is the question.

[Would I be justified in leaving because of her newfound hobby?]

Interesting that LW2 is so interested in leaving with a Stamp of Approval (how much difference does it make?) and that LW2 pins it all on the new side hobby when the marriage is general sounds quite sufficiently disagreeable for dissolution.


I'm SO happy to hear Dan's family is well!

"leading with “I’m a demisexual” seems like a waste of time to me"

Not on a dating website, where it's 1/5 as many words as Dan's elaboration.

"Do I have a “thing” for black guys now?"

Yes, DHFBM, scientific studies have proven that you can't go back. Congratulations!

@27 venn
"during this Great Interval"

Is that the name for the coronapocalypse?

@28 larrystone007
"more inclined to find one partner"

Interesting thought, but the finding isn't safe now, I don't think video calls are enough to pair up from.

I continue to swipe on dating profiles when interesting ones go by. I also would need to not meet /now/ because I'm not a nut; not that this has even come up, I haven't gotten a bite anyway since the Great Interval kicked in. Which is kinda a shame, it would be nice to have some meetings on hold for when it's safe to.


Lava @23, no, a circumcised penis is not intact. It's been altered from its original state.

Hunter @25, I'm HOWLING at the fact that the commenter who goes around hunting for cases in closets has accused ME of inventing something. ROFL! BOD clearly values this guy's intact penis over, well, pretty much any aspect of him, and raves about the virtues about foreskinned penises generally when that's not even relevant to the letter. There's no "happens to like" when he's using words like "natural" to describe uncut cocks, and has given enough thought to the word "uncut" as to find it disgusting. Regardless, disregard my alliteration if it means you're splitting hairs over whether his obvious preference is a fetish; unlike yourself, I have no desire to assign pathologies to strangers on the internet.


Hmm... honestly, I'm still voting for 'uncut' but I think 'natural' fits better than 'intact.' After all, uncircumsized is the natural state, so it's an accurate description, but 'intact' sounds like I'm delicately inquiring whether or not the person is a eunuch, or whether a trans woman has had bottom surgery yet, or something.

Hunter78 @25 Come on, you have to admit that the mentions of 'natural' are a bit incongruously shoved into the question.


Larry @28: "We were wondering if the isolation of being home alone all the time would get to her in this Corona Quarantine Universe." Yes, it will. I hope she has pets.

"We were wondering if people like her coworker would be more inclined to find one partner (a Corona Companion if you will) to shack up with and watch TV with and share a can of beans with. Thoughts? Are we going to see a (temporary?) move back to monogamy for those who more typically play the field? Will some of those relationships not be so temporary?"
What, that quickly? Haven't the self isolation advice orders been effective immediately? I would not think there is time for someone otherwise single to go out and order up someone online whom they like enough to spend 24/7 for potentially several weeks with. And why would this herald a return to monogamy? What, am I going to break up with partners just because I won't be able to see them for several weeks? (That's typical of poly, if the intervals are shorter and less artificially imposed.) Perhaps your musing might have value if we could all go back in time and see that six months from now we'd all need to sequester, so perhaps those of us, like myself, who've never previously seen any negatives about our glorious state of self-cohabitation could prepare. So no, I don't think you're going to see currently non-monogamous people breaking up; you're just going to see these relationships become virtual in nature until we're all cleared for human contact once more.

If you mean that, once we are cleared, will those formerly happy single and solo poly people rethink their solitude, just in case of future pandemics? Perhaps people will rethink shacking up, but shacking up does not necessitate monogamy. You may be right that self isolation will cause some to re-evaluate the benefits of living solo versus with Mr/Ms/Mx Wrong. But I'm hoping this will be a blip and we can all return to our preferred living and loving arrangements within a few months at most, a tiny fraction of our adult lives. I do admit that I'm feeling resentful of the "WE'RE self isolating" posts I see on Facebook, but some have made the point that sharing close quarters with someone you frequently bicker with might be worse than spending several weeks alone.


Curious @30 (and others on this topic), Dan should know that demisexual has entered the lexicon to the point where a demisexual does not, in fact, need to explain themself to every single person they come out to. Unlike, say, girlfag. And the more people they say, "I'm a demisexual" to, who ask what it means, the more people know what a demisexual is, and the less explaining future demisexuals will have to do. Sorry, Dan, I have to agree with Yami @13 that this seemed like a gratuitous dig.

I too recently exchanged messages with a promising OKCupid person, which has had to go on hold until after the crisis has passed. So, I agree mass insta-pairings to avoid solitude are an unlikely mass effect of the virus.


The operative phrase from L4:

[My primary partner and I are going to be getting engaged soon]

Not "are going to announce our engagement soon" but "are going to be getting engaged soon". Two things come to mind. One is that LW4 is like Marianne Dashwood, who had great reason to expect that she and Willoughby would be engaged at practically any time in the near future (and they were within half a day of becoming so). The other is that LW4 has one of those attitudes about The Proposal that I'm going to give a new acronym TTFW, standing for Too Twee For Words. Someone with that way of thinking could easily get tied into a knot about whether to let someone in the FWB category know in person or via social media.


@ 11 - yeah, there's going to have to be some discussion about what dirty talk looks like to him, anyway, so why not open with clarity.

Dirty talk isn't really something I'm into, but at one point in my marriage, I was thinking it might be an easy way to have a bit more fun in bed. Mentioned it to my husband, but his idea of dirty talk was so, I dunno, banal and like it came from a crappy porn movie that it ended up being more of a turnoff than anything. Since I didn't really have a clear idea of what I wanted to guide him, we both ended up just saying "Y'know, this just feels stupid, let's not".


All about penis procedures today. May I suggest “altered” and “unaltered”, “Alt” and ”Unalt” for short?
“Natural” is relative. I grew up where everyone was “alt” so my “natural” habitat may differ from that of many Europeans and other countries.

Larry @ 28
I suspect online sex is on the rise, both the demand as well as stay home unemployed looking for income.
The recent virus has not proved as deadly as AIDS, at least not yet, but I can see some dating/hookups changes coming as a result. A no-contact Lewis CK style may also be an option, which was a thing during the AIDS epidemic.

TS @ 32
Just to delicately point that the “yet” in the “or whether a trans woman has had bottom surgery yet” is enhancing the notion that all trans women are eventually opting for a bottom procedure.


BOD, I am here to testify from personal experience that when a hookup/FWB that went well years before gets in touch years later to see if you wanna hookup/FWB again, it can be one of the great joys of life. Message him!


Dan, glad you are OK. Stay safe! Maybe you can do a Covid-19 special double dose of SLLOTD every day from now till contagion end (or death do us all part). Preferably with extra "classic Dan" snark - will help drive traffic to the Stranger! Boost all those N95 mask ad sales! Keeping the stranger from going bankrupt! And give your loyal fans some welcome distraction.


agony @36 & Dadddy @38

I've found dirty talk to be a skill like massage that everyone thinks they should be able to do but that actually needs developing & practice.

Mr. P got into the habit of finding phrases he liked on tumblr, then sending them to me. When we'd have sex, he'd prompt me to say the desired phrase (often in call/response form, like "Who's a dirty little cocksucker?" "I'm a dirty little cocksucker!") [Those weren't the phrases, but just as an example.]

Over time, with practice, I can now produce the desired phrases without prompting. And I associate them with fun sex & orgasm, so they excite me too.


I don’t think that demisexual is well represented as “I need to feel a strong emotional connection before wanting to fuck someone.” For me it means, I have never looked at a person and liked to have sex with them. I do not get spontaneously horny. There are very few people I like to have sex with because of course there are very few people that I strongly emotionally connect with. I have trouble understanding that my partner still likes to have sex with other people because I really don’t. Because all these aspects are unusual, we like to adopt our own label. Though quite honestly, I don’t like the term demisexual too much because it hides all the variations that exists within sexual people. The moment I like the term most is when my friends point at people on the street or talk about celebs and expect me to want to have sex with them, then I feel very different.


@42 JuliaBurg
The way you put it, " liked to have sex with...a person", it seems to me goes beyond the definition of demisexual (which I keep googling every time I read the word, because I'm never sure I've remembered it), which is about "sexual attraction", because it's entirely possible to find people arousing without actually wanting to fuck them already.

I'm not just playing semantics, I'm wondering how would one even know whether to try to "emotionally connect with" someone with an eye towards sexual partnership, if one doesn't even find people attractive in advance? Is one really that unable to predict who to try to connect with?


@ 41, yeah, if either of us had really wanted it more, we'd probably have ended up doing something like that. As it was, we just didn't bother, it wasn't that important.

@ 42 I've never been sexually aroused just looking at someone I didn't know, in a long and pretty sexy life. That probably does happen for some people, but I also think a lot of people just use it as shorthand for "that person is pleasant to look at and has the attributes I often find arousing when I'm in a sexual situation with a person with those attributes". so you're not really all that unusual or different.


Julia @42, the line that sounded the most different to me was "I do not get spontaneously horny." I think for many/most people, there needs to be more of a connection between "spontaneously horny" and "I want to have sex with that person" than just the way they look, but the horniness is there, even if they aren't compelled to act on it without a sense of personal connection. Agony @44, does that make sense? It's the difference between a default of wanting sex generally but not without [A/B/C], versus not wanting sex, with the potential for a rare override if all conditions are perfect.


Bod, I’m not a man yet I’m offended by trying to call an uncircumcised penis, natural. And I hope he keeps it clean, some boys wouldn’t you know? All types of scum would embed itself under that skin. When you contact him make sure you check.
“Hi sweetie, I’m dying to suck your mammoth beautiful veiny self again.. long as you’ve been pulling it back in the shower and it’s clean clean as a whistle. Hello. Hello. You there?”


There are a few well-established words that identify this language fetish.
Coprolalia, erotolalia, and lagnolalia all describe deriving pleaure from "talking dirty," especially during sex. Aischrology (Greek for "obscene speech") is the generic term for this practice, often used by specialists (theologians, rhetoricians, philologists).


SLLOTD returns on Monday. xo


@48: (blows a kiss emoji)



Yes, you'd be justified.
If you're not sure you'd be justified, consider that your wife is doing everything she can to send the message that she's as bored with you as you are with her. Look at all she's doing to avoid you. She works like crazy so she doesn't have to spend time with you. She'd rather be obnoxious by selling to her "friends" than spend time with you. (They won't be her friends for long if she keeps selling to them.) She's taken to drinking.
If you're not sure you'd be justified, go to some Al Anon meetings. They've heard it before and can advise better than anyone.
When your divorce is final, make sure you give up getting high most nights. You've got a budding addiction problem yourself.


@48 Dan the man: SLLOTD is back---HOORAY!!! I'm so glad that you and your family are all okay.

Everyone stay healthy, warm, and safe.


Intact is a great word to use. Let's the man know right away that you are a misandrist, and he can turn around and run away from you immediately.


@48~ “...SLLOTD returns on Monday...”
Yea, Dan! A bit of welcome normalcy just in the nick of time. Just when I thought Trump had used up all my, “Surely it can’t get much worse than this” incredularity, along comes Mother Nature to say, “ Oh, yes it can.” Bring on the “Ive been developing a taste for moose dick, but am worried about all the canceled mooseologist orgies due to social distancing” letters!


@54 DonnyKlicious: That's it. I just plain LOVE you! Don't ever stop, Donny.
XO, Griz

Everyone stay healthy, warm, and safe.


The married guy is unhappy, and of course he can leave. Yes, sounds like his mind is made up. But I don’t like the idea of silently making an “escape plan”. Absent abuse, we owe it to our spouses to tell them how serious the situation is, and see if anything can be done to improve it... counseling, etc. Probably the Hail Mary will go unanswered/incomplete and leaving will be the thing to do. But... the situation doesn’t sound toxic, so why plot leaving in secret instead of communicating?


Is there a word for "getting aroused by finding pubic hairs on the glass in the Hall of Mirrors"? Asking for an archbishop I know.


Whenever I see the word demi, I think of Demi Moore, and then Patrick Swayze, and that awful movie they did together. Lucky Whoopi was in it. And after Dirty Dancing.. how could he do such drivel. Not that DD was without pathos, the music and dancing, and capturing well a time of great transition in western culture. US culture.
Thinking back, I wasn’t demisexal. Or after the first flush I was, because when young, sexual attractions just pop up at you. What’s a girl to do?
Now. I don’t see many men who take my fancy.
/ Obviously LW with the rude wife, it’s time to move on. When you’re talking about your marriage, and your wife, as you do, you’ve already left. She might learn that marriage is about compromise, and if she ain’t up for that, then marriage is not for her.


Thanks Dadddy, not. I don’t wanna know your dirty sex talk. Already my mind latches onto the word slut. Not my business. Private chat. If some man tried that on me I’d laugh. Slut. Yeah right mate. See. Best to keep it between you and your lady friend.


I don’t think some hetero men know the internalised power for some women, that the word Slut has.
Gay men throw it around, sure, that’s their language and it’s between Men.
So no. I’d never be a slut for a man’s cock, because as soon as I heard that word my erotic juices would be jammed by deep confusion.


Hunter78 @51: did you write the letter yourself as a pro-uncut promotional piece and are salty about people noticing, or something? The letter was consistently pushing the fact that he was uncut, and that this "natural" way was better - even when it had nothing to do with the supposed question. I mean, I'm not arguing the pros and cons of either state, but come on, the letter clearly had an agenda.


Dan @48, you are a true hero for these trying times. May you and your family continue to avoid this virus.

Hunter @51, your "I know you are but what am I" crusade is boring. This guy is clearly expressing a preference by using glowingly positive language about uncircumcised penises. Why does his preference offend you so?

Philosophy @53, wow! What is the issue with the word "intact"? I am curious. I am definitely not a misandrist and enjoy penises of both types, though I do disapprove of altering others' bodies without their consent. If "intact" has some connotation I'm unfamiliar with, I would like to know. Thanks!

Hunter @55, which is why using and explaining it to the average person will help.

Lava @61-@62, dirty talk and romantic talk definitely set two different tones during sex. I'm fine with some romantic words during sex. Calling someone a slut is a definite D/s move; it works great to emasculate subby men who are into that. Funny, one of my partners likes romantic talk, as do I, but when I'm sucking his cock it feels jarring to be told "you're so beautiful" instead of "you're so good at that." What I want at that moment is encouragement and praise for my technique, not some lie about me looking beautiful when my cheeks are all caved in! The wrong words can ruin the mood for sure.


@venn @35: I love TTFW.

I have to say, I'm pretty sure Hunter's right. I'd bet big money that the vast majority of English-speakers have no idea what the hell demisexual means. Hell, I hang out here in my spare time and I'm still not sure.

As for dirty talk, I used to find it universally silly (and sort of off-putting). Then last year a guy I was with pulled some out--a sort of combination dirty talk and role-playing, describing a scenario he'd like to be in with me--and holy shit, it did the trick. I've been replaying it mentally ever since. Hats off to him.


BDF @64: BOD was unequivocal in his glowing praise for uncut cock, and indeed, it seems to be unrelated to his actual non-question. You're being trolled.

ciods @65: The kids all know what demisexual means. So do many of the demisexuals.


Well, one never knows what will take until something does. I'm fairly sure I encountered demisexual as a term before I heard pansexual, but the latter term seems to have caught on a good deal more. I'm fairly certain there's some sort of survey for this.


Well, looking up 'demisexual' on urban dictionary I see that the first entry was made in 2009, and a decade is a long time for a word to circulate on the internet, so... yeah, I'm assuming most people know what it is by now.


Fubar @66, yes, and I fed the troll. When you see a troll, roll and scroll! (At least I get the magic number to make up for the hassle!) :D


I love dirty talk. LOVE it. I wouldn't say I NEED it, but it makes sex much, much hotter for me. And as an extended foreplay tool, like dirty texts or dirty comments through non-sexual activities, are a really fun way to rev both me and my partner up hours ahead of time, so that the sex is more exciting and explosive.

But I've learned that you can't make someone do something they aren't comfortable with and expect it to be what you want. If I have to instruct a man on what to say, it will never have the authenticity I need, and I'd rather just do without.

But we need to have a special (and specialized) word to describe someone who likes dirty talk? That seems unnecessary to me.


Lava @ 61, 62
Dadddy didn’t say anything that EricaP didn’t and he’s right that making sounds during oral sex can be fun, not only to hear but also because of the gentle vibration it often produces.

As for “slut”- just like all other terms there are different associations to different people. I assume you come from the slut shaming side of this, the oppression of female sexuality, the shaming (and often taking advantage) of those who wouldn’t adhere.
No denying we still have way to go, yet things got somewhat better over the years. “Slut” may be a fun play word nowadays for all genders, orientations and dynamics, cis women included.


@curious2, I didn't forget about you; I've been incredibly busy, and then when I tried to use the email I have used for off-this-site private correspondences, it was unrecoverable. Apologies to Me. Ven, ciods, FutureCatLady, and anyone else who may have sent me an email that will now never be replied to.
I just set up a new email and will send you a hello in a moment.

@Dadddy, you mentioned you were going through a tough time as well. If you want to join our little shelter-in-place support group, let me know.

@everyone: ditto what I said to Dadddy.


@fubar, a quick survey of young people I know (i.e., under 30) reveals zero of four familiar with the term. Among the five older folks I ran into this morning, none knew it. Two of my nine surveyed friends hazarded guesses that weren't super far off, though probably closer to asexual. I miss teaching, I had larger sample sizes to play with. So I still think the commetariat here (including myself) tend toward a pretty serious urban/Left Coast/sex-advice-reading bias, and therefore base a lot of their "everybody knows" defaults on seriously skewed sample sets. But I could of course be wrong.

@nocute, I'd like to still be in your address book, if nothing else. I may have a literature emergency at some point. (as I assume that info went the way of your old address...)


@ciods: I sent you a test message from the new account. See if it came through.


ciods @73: I must defer to your superior survey. I just asked my age 20-something kids. Aside from them, most of the younger people with whom I interact are members of the kink community, which likely explains the skew.


@69 BiDanFan: WA-HOOOOOO!!!!! Congratulations, BiDanFan, for scoring this week's SL Lucky @69 Award and indeed, the magic number! Bask in the much envied glory found only in Savage Love. May this be a good omen for trolling immunity in the future. :)


CMD, I didn’t get back far enough to read Erica’s comment. I spied Dadddy’s because it was just above mine. Sorry. Did I cause a freak out. I hate the word slut.
it’s an ugly sounding word as well as one used by many to put girls/ women down for having sexual desire.


Not against dirty talk CMD, and sorry you copped it Dadddy. Best check with others first what words might be triggers and not use them.


Fan, how you going? I got a message from my de facto daughter in law in England, that London was being locked down with the help of the army.
Idiots in charge here don’t lock us down, not even closing the schools.


Had the police handing out toilet paper to shoppers in one supermarket..


Demi sexual is weird. Half sexual doesn’t make sense to me and how does it refer to only having sex when there is some emotional connection. All this need to have specific names may be important for some, easy communication to others I assume. However, one changes over time especially sexually, so why put another box around oneself.


BiDanFan, LavaGirl, nocutename, fubar, CMD, DonnyKlicious, EricaP, curious2, CalliopeMuse, delta35, Dan, and everybody: Sending much love. I can't imagine being under a lockdown enforced by local police or by the military. Schools are closed, banks only running through drive-through, online, or by phone. All of the appointments I had this week with doctors, naturopath, VA therapist, and VA representative were either conducted over the phone or online.
I still can't believe the people hoarding toilet paper and bottled water by the pallet loads, stripping store shelves!

Everyone stay healthy, strong, warm, safe, and sane.


You see some hot guy and the body starts responding yet the brain says, no remember you are demi sexual, just because you’re getting wet as you sit with this man you have no emotional attachment with, you must ignore that, because labels are more important than spontaneous life.


@82 griz
"I can't imagine being under a lockdown"

A couple weeks before this started, from something wholly unrelated, I felt claustrophobic for the first time. Just as I thought I was over it, this popped up.


I went shopping yesterday, Grizelda. And the store was fine, lots of food. No nasty shoppers. I felt quite proud of my community. Still out of toilet paper.
Dadddy, I think I react to you so much because I find these incest related kinks problematic. Yes, there is a sexual component with parents as we grow up, this needs to be sublimated not acted out.
/ what are these incest related kinks doing in the real world? Do they give permission for some unhinged people to act incest out.


Lava @ 77
Sexy talk can be sexy for different reasons. Beyond “forbidden” words and conversations it may also apply to words and situations we have found and may still find offensive.
I’m not suggesting you should follow my example, yet for years I dreaded some of the stigmas often associated with trans women, like “submissive sissy” and such. I’ll still be offended if a stranger on the street approached me as such, and very likely respond by telling them who I think they are, yet capable of channeling those feelings and associations into play words and situations with trusted folks.
I assume some cis women find “slut,” “bitch” and the like sexy on occasion for those very same reasons.


Lava, I wonder, do you also find rape-related kinks problematic? I mean, we all agree people shouldn't rape people--but plenty of people enjoy acting out (consensually, of course) such fantasies. I don't think it's considered indicative of any real desire to rape or be raped.

I don't know if there's research on whether engaging in consensual sex of that variety makes someone with rape fantasies more likely to rape, but I would be hugely surprised if so. If I were a betting girl, I'd bet on the inverse correlation, if any. Logically, it seems the same conclusion would also follow for other types of fantasies. (Of course, sexual behavior isn't logical, so that's a nonsense sentence I just wrote.)


Interesting ciods, because no, I don’t. Then no specific reference to children is usually implied by those kinks.
Incest related kinks disturb me, and I’ve finally vocalised it. I don’t see why kinks are never analysed, humans change with behaviour.
So many kinks seem covers for Patriarchy to continue it's usual Form, full steam ahead, to me.
/ Ricardo, how you doing? Your to you. Muse too, look after yourself and love.
Sportlandia, me mate, don’t know why you’ve been disappeared. Sending you love.


Men and women and others rape, ciods, with or without kinks. Incest should never happen or be encouraged.
These kinks, to me, point to deep disturbances in parenting, and there are no more significant relationships in our lives, no matter how hard we as adults try to deny that. Their behaviours formed us. Our most vulnerable selves, committed to their care.


Correction; ‘point to deep disturbances in being parented.’
I don’t genuflect at the altar of kinks etc, because I remember a time when these cultural manifestations were very very low key. Not the social experiment they have now become.


So what’s happened, culturally over these last few decades, where kinks etc are seen as normal?
I am not suggesting that people are faking these erotic components to themselves, I question that they are hard wired because nobody I knew in my youth ever claimed such a thing. Suddenly they are hard wired? Seems unlikely. So where do they spring from.


Lava @90: "...there are no more significant relationships in our lives, no matter how hard we as adults try to deny that. Their behaviours formed us. Our most vulnerable selves, committed to their care."
I've been reading some Jung recently, and I think he'd agree 100%.
I also completely agree with this:
"Incest should never happen or be encouraged."
That said, an incest kink has nothing to do with real incest. The people I know with incest, mostly people on this comment board, I think...will, I believe, tell you that their incest fantasies are not about their real families at all, but tend to be about themselves as some member of some totally different fictional family in which incest is taking place. I get that even that sort of fantasy creeps you out, but I don't think it really has anything to do with incest as a reality. It's presumably just one more taboo/power exchange format, and playing exactly on what you said: vulnerable selves.

I do wonder, as you do, about the (apparent) explosions in kink and the general feeling that such things are hard-wired. I understand that to think otherwise may feel dangerous--like the start of a slippery slope which ends with conversion therapy or something--but I like to think that, at least around here, we could ask the question without implying any such thing. My guess is the usual argument would go that people always had kinks, they were just hidden, undiscussed. I'm willing to believe that up to a point, but I'm not sure I think that covers the full disparity.


@84 curious2: I can relate. While I fortunately feel comforted by the coziness of my small, intimate studio, my apartment building is eerily quiet. Often when I play or practice my piccolo, C & alto flutes, and piano, music is the only sound.
I can't imagine being in active military service or reserves right now, especially under this horrifically incompetent neofascist regime. I'm sure that if they aren't already, all U.S. bases will be under lockdown soon. What a different world than when I was in 30 years ago, even during the Gulf War.

@86 LavaGirl: I'm glad to hear that you're okay and that shopping and other services are still available through local stores, agencies, and businesses. It is the same here. Restaurants and bars are closed--open for takeout or delivery only. No live concerts or shows. I am playing and composing out of my studio.
Much love, hugs, positrons, and VW beeps form my little Love Beetle and me,
xo, Griz

@90 LavaGirl: I live in constant hope that rape and incest will become things of the past. While I thankfully never experienced incest growing up, I am unfortunately among the high statistic of rape survivors.


Who's up for the Big Hunsky? Lava? Are you desiring a sexy mountain man?


Demisexual. For some weird reason the term makes me think of the actress and film producer, Demi Moore. Both the aforementioned are something and someone entirely different, altogether.
Hopefully this is not a sign that I'm watching too many movies. The only one I have in my DVD home library starring Demi Moore is the 1992 film, A Few Good Men.

Is this the week of A Few Good Demis ?


And this week's Big Hunsky winner IS!!!!.............


See how I'm setting it up?


Ms Grizelda - Last weekend, I read a story about a man in Kentucky and his brother who between them drove over a thousand miles buying out the entire stock of hand sanitizer from stores like Dollar General and then reselling on eBay or Amazon at huge markups. They also acquired and resold masks. They had made about $90,000 in profit when the plug got pulled, leaving them with over 17,000 unsold units, which they eventually donated once resale became impossible.

Ms Lava - I was out Sunday and yesterday. No liquid soaps, disinfecting wipes or toilet paper either day. (I wonder how those stores in malls that specialize in high-end bathroom products and such have made out. Last month, I had to go with my father to return three bottles of hand soap because he'd been sent for anything pink and had brought home coral; the supply was immense.) Sunday there was no loose produce, sugar was almost out and there was no milk in the half gallon size (just under two litres). Yesterday at a different chain there was loose produce and (although that chain usually is iffy) milk in half gallons, but there was practically no sugar, bread, chicken, butter or eggs.


That was unintentional; I cede any benefit of post #100 to Mr Curious, who may need it most.


@ Dadddy: I sent you an introductory message.

@ Mr. Ven: It's kind of funny what is in the stores and what one can't find for love nor money.

@LavaGirl: First off, I'm one of those commentors that ciods mentioned who has "incest" fantasies--and ravishment fantasies. She was spot-on in her comment @94, as far as I'm concerned. But to add: I was not molested or otherwise sexually abused as a child or ever by anyone in my family. I have no sexual interest in anyone in my family: in my "incest" fantasies, I'm about 14-16 and my "father" or guardian grooms me and "seduces" me. It's all about power and powerlessness. It's power exchange. Real incest is disgusting and a horribly traumatic thing. I don't ever, in any way, approve of it in any manifestation in real life.

I think if you don't have fantasies like that, it's very difficult to understand them. It's weird and distasteful, and it is easy to assume that either the fantasy means you'd like to enact it in real life or that it was inspired by something that happened in real life. It's hard to make someone understand how little choice I have over the thoughts and scenarios that I find arousing. Ravishment fantasies--like those "bodice ripper" romance novels-scenarios--are in my head, too. All I can say is that ever since I was a child, I liked to play games in which I was a captive, tied up and at the mercy of my captor. When I was a kid, these fantasies weren't sexual, but it's easy enough to trace the development of them into wank-fodder.


@Dadddy: Yes, Batman. Also Duddly Do-Right, Penelope Pitstop, and any 1930s or 1940s-era pirate movie with Maureen O'Hara playing a spirited captive.

I agree with virtually everything you wrote @102, except the knee socks/stockings thing.

I will also add that when I find someone whose interests align with mine, it's pretty awesome. One would think that being a submissive woman, it would be very easy to find a man who ticks all the dominant, in-control (as opposed to controlling) boxes as I'd tick his "tie-me-up-and-have-your-way-with-me-and-call-me-a-slut-while-you're-at-it" boxes, but I've often been surprised at how frequently I find men who feel the need to tell me that I'm psychologically fucked up and what is my relationship with my father and I really need better self-esteem, and no, they can't say that.


LavaGirl @86: DD/lg is not about incest. And look, you’ve forced me to jump in and agree with Dadddy. (I’m not sure why that should be a problem, but he must have irked me off at some point in the past.)

I’ve been in DD/lg relationships in the past. It’s not that I want to beat/fuck little girls, or that these women want(ed) to be beaten/fucked by their fathers. It’s about the emotional intensity and care they crave. It's hot.

Griz @82: Thanks, and bless you. When this is done and done, let’s plan a big party on the west coast somewhere; maybe even invite Dan Savage.

Dadddy @102: Sockings. Yes. Also garter belts and suspenders. And heels.


fubar @105: I think you meant stockings!


@105: Stockings, garter belts and suspenders. And heels.
Now you're talking.


@97 griz
"Demisexual....the term makes me think of...Demi Moore"

In that case I'm a Demisexual too.

@101 venn
Thank you from the bottom of my heart, venn.

And wow, I play a game where the /only/ lucky numbers I let myself hit are unintentional.

    Please wait...

    Comments are closed.

    Commenting on this item is available only to members of the site. You can sign in here or create an account here.

    Add a comment

    By posting this comment, you are agreeing to our Terms of Use.