Savage Love Apr 14, 2020 at 4:26 pm





So many questions, hooray and thank you!

"tell your friend you’re done covering for her and that you won’t be able to see her again until the deceit or the pandemic is over, whichever comes first"
Whichever comes second, not first -- you want both of those to happen before you'll see her.


MSA~ “Doctor, I paint the bathroom walls brown when I swallow come!”

Doctor hits her with a rubber chicken, “Then, don’t do that!”


For MSA:

Also try popping ibuprofen before you start making out with a dude. It acts on prostaglandins so might help.

(I have exactly the same issue. The idea of swallowing is hot but I dislike the taste of semen, so I haven’t bothered trying the ibuprofen trick myself. I just don’t swallow.)


So LW5 is seeing "an amazing 34-year-old girl"! She's still a girl at 34? Amazing!!


"Her perspective is that the grass is greener where you water it and that my desire to act is immature, selfish, and has an unrealistic end game. "

This quote sounds like a monogamist's view of non-monogamy, which suggests that OOO and Ms. OOO are not compatible because OOO is a non-monogamous bisexual and Ms. OOO is a monogamous bisexual and thinks being non-monogamous is immature and selfish. If OOO is going to feel sexually unfulfilled if she does not have sex with men, then she should break up with Ms. OOO and find a more compatible partner.

I have encountered a few women who imagine having a penis during sex. They like this optical illusion that they have a penis, which heightens their arousal. It sounds like PMP is carrying this over to her masturbatory fantasies. It hasn't phased me to hear partners mention this during sex, so I think PMP is on safe ground broaching this idea as dirty talk during sex. It is easy enough to have sex in positions and at a pace to enhance this illusion.


Welcome back, Sublime @5!
If OOO has never been with a man, I think the loving thing for Ms OOO to do would be to give her a hall pass to explore these desires. Ms OOO has had the opportunity to experience both genders; it's selfish and petty for her to expect her girlfriend to forgo dick for the rest of her life. (If Ms OOO has not dated men, only "masturbated," this argument will be more difficult for OOO to make.) If OOO does only want a one-time hall pass to satisfy her curiosity, I hope she can convince her partner. I'd suggest a threesome, but I don't have much faith in Ms OOO's ability to enjoy it without getting jealous. So OOO needs to decide which is more important: this woman or experiencing her full sexuality. Due to Ms OOO calling her reasonable needs "immature and selfish," rather than just saying, for instance, that polyamory isn't her jam, I'd recommend the latter.

IMFAA: "If the issue your friend expects you to ooze sympathize while she goes on and on about the mess she’s made of her life" -- Is there a copy editor in the house?

PMP: I'm going with overthinking. I may be biased but this seems super normal to me. She's not trans if she doesn't want to be a man otherwise. If you'd like to peg your partners, suggest it (to the more adventurous ones -- perhaps lead with a request to finger them). If single, look for bi or submissive guys who may enjoy the "humiliation" of being pegged or sucking your cock. If this is just your own secret thrill, enjoy it!
"enjoy having the dick the dick you can have" -- where's that copy editor??

Apple polishing - I learned something today! So I'll ignore the typo in that letter...

MSA - okay, I learned two things. But I wonder why the guespert assumed MSA was female?

Ankyl @1 - want a job as a copy editor? Good call, but she could still "see" her friend during video chat during the pandemic. Which is a good point: During the lockdown the affair is presumably on the back burner, and if Friend lives with the girlfriend breaking up right now is not an option. IMFAA should encourage her friend to use this time to make a decision and an exit plan (and not discuss the situation beyond this).

Slomo @4 - word!


Seeing your friend becoming a cheating liar is obviously making you uncomfortable.
Do you still want to be friends with such a person?
Tell her that in the past year she seems to be different than the person you befriended when you first met, or just distance yourself if such talk is not an option.

Informing the gf on what’s going on will only make it harder for all involved and instead of politely cooling off a friendship with one person you are now likely to have 2-3 new enemies. Disengage and keep an eye from a distance.


some people just have different levels of prostaglandins than others, and that is, obviously, a factor, i have found.


LW1: while poly isn't any more mature or selfish than monogamy, acting like bisexuality should give you a hall pass most certainly is immature and selfish. If you want to be poly, go get yourself a poly relationship, (note: this means your partner will probably fuck others as well) but don't act like your appreciation for more than one sort of genitals means your monogamous partner now owes you an exploratory pass.


PMP, I'm also a cis woman (albeit bi, not het), and I SO have a toy recommendation for you. I was never into realistic-looking dildos and rarely fantasised about having a dick of my own, but The Bandit by Vixen Creations has been a game changer.

Something about its double-core squishiness and texture makes it feel like an extension of my body in the way other strap-on toys don't. Just looking at myself in the mirror while wearing it is an instant thrill. Get one that matches your skin tone and wear with a well-fitting harness (mine's Aslan Leather Jag, but plenty of other good brands out there). In my experience, the silicone transfers vibrations really well, so if you like that kind of thing, you can incorporate vibrating toys in your solo or partnered play :)


L-dub #1, your girlfriend is half wrong. You are being selfish, but not about dick. You are being selfish because you are asking for what seems to be a unilateral change in a bilateral monogamous agreement. You both appear to be focused on the dick here. But that's kinda irrelevant. Being in a monogamous relationship means that when you want something, you can't have it. And you are no longer accepting that.

Your girlfriend is probably not down w/ poly or openness. Did she express it in the best way? No. But, you didn't even seem to ask for poly or openness. You just asked for what you wanted. So, you didn't do it in the best way either. And you know, that's some emotional shit there regardless. On top of that, there's also the whole 'dick' thing between two women.That can't help

If you want poly or open, ask for poly or open. Don't ask for a unilateral change, which is what it sounds like you did. Doubtful she wants it. But if you want a change, you should ask for an ethical change. Not a selfish one. Sure, you could try to manipulate her where you want her. But, ummmm... don't? That's shitty. Just break up and go get what you want, assuming you want what you want more than you want your monogamous relationship.


BDF@6, the guest expert made no such assumption, in fact it sounds like the guest expert hasn't seen MSA's letter at all - Dan has simply recycled their advice to another LW:

"guest expert Dr. Debby Herbenick unpacked the cause for another reader a few years back"

As it stands, I'm not sure Dr Herbenick's advice applies in this case. MSA says "I’ve been seeing someone new, and have just discovered that I get diarrhea every time I swallow his come". To me, this sounds like MSA has had/blown other penis-having partners before, and hasn't had this this issue, so it may not be a semen sensitivity per se. Yes, it's possible that MSA's new partner has higher levels of prostaglandins, or MSA has developed this sensitivity since their last blowjob partner. Although from what I've read, semen-induced diarhhea is more commonly associated with unprotected PIV or PIA than with oral, as stomach acids tend to break prostaglandins down pretty well.

I would advise asking this new partner about their diet and meds. A cursory google search indicates that this is an underresearched area of study, but there have been some documented cases of people having second-hand allergic reactions to their partner's NSAIDs and antibiotics, through oral contact with their bodily fluids, including semen.


Dan you a little tipsy this week or was the editor out to lunch?


Only one commenter called out LW5 for calling a 34-year old person a girl? Not even Dan said anything about it? Last I checked girls become women at age 18.....


Hunter @12, you should know better than anyone that a clit, even a swollen one, does not approximate a cock. You're correct that PMP doesn't mention pegging, but she does mention disclosing her fantasies of having a cock to partners, and from there it's not a huge leap of logic to think that the purpose of this disclosure is that she wants the partners to interact with this fantasy dick of hers in some way. Perhaps by being pegged or sucking a dildo; perhaps by engaging in dirty talk. Or perhaps she just wants to feel she can talk about this and her partners won't think she's a weirdo. Indeed most straight men aren't into pegging, which is why I advised her to find a bi or submissive one. That's if she wants to take her dick fantasy to this level, which you're correct isn't clear. But why would a straight man think a woman who wants to peg men isn't straight? Or is that just you trolling again?

Margarita @14, thanks for the catch. Yes, presumably the original question was posed by a woman, hence the reference to periods.

CMonster @17, and one commenter (me) applauded that commenter, and presumably the rest didn't see any point in repeating the same point.


@6/BiDanFan: Thank you. I would like to say that I will be commenting regularly again, but these have been irregular times, which makes it not so easy to participate in these discussions.


@4@17, Right on. I cringe when people refer to grown-ass women as girls.


Eh. I think if you use "men and girls" that might come off as infantilizing, but generally "girl" gets used as the female counterpart to "guy" so its use normally doesn't strike me as such. The LW did describe himself using the word 'guy.' (NB: "Gal" comes off to me as forced, odd, regional, etc. but it's not used where I live, so perhaps it's likely that people living in places where "guys and gals" is common usage will feel differently than I do about the whole issue. Also, I'm a girl. ;) )


PMP- While coming from a different perspective I can very much relate to what LostMargarita described @ 11 re watching herself in the mirror while strapping it on. A cis woman with a strap on can be an intriguing image for many men, and likely lead to some action as well.
Beyond the look there’s also plenty about the out of the ordinary “transgression,” the shifting dynamics and change of power balance.
I interpret your “I love being a woman” as likely to present yourself on the feminine side. For some this starting point will only enhance those triggers.

Assuming the action you want to take is penetrate your partner(s), I would also encourage you to be open to their needs and desires in this regard. Is there something they want to wear during a strap on session, if only temporarily? Would any of you, or both, find it exciting if they get on their knees and take your penis in their mouth?


IWas @ 21
You're right that "girls" is more commonly used, but that doesn't necessarily make it ok. The equal term to "guys" would probably be "gals," and hardly anyone refers to men/guys as "boys."
The use of "girl" in the letter was glaring because it came from her partner and both are in their mid 30's.


Hi, CMD, yeah, I made sure to mention that 'gals' is technically the equivalent, and I assume it is used similarly to 'guys' in some locales, just not mine, and I presume not the LW's. I don't know that I'm making the point that it's 'okay' or not. I'm a bit of a wordnerd and I tend toward descriptivist tendencies when it comes to language. I'm 40 and female and didn't notice his use of 'girl' as anything out of the ordinary, simply because it functions smoothly as the female casual equivalent to 'guys' in my experience. My point was more that I don't find it offensive or infantilizing given the context of its use here, and so I'm not sure what point there is in us taking offense where none was meant (by the LW.) 'Boy' does get used in some contexts and by some people, but I agree it doesn't have the same rate of use, probably because 'guy' serves the purpose better. Perhaps switching to 'gal' would be good policy, although as I mentioned it sounds forced to my ears.
It seems by your last sentence that you feel that 'girl' coming from her partner is more glaring than by someone else or did I read that wrong? 'My girl' 'my guy' are common terms in my experience for one's partner, so I would think they might be more common??


@21 IWasSfR: I generally don't say "guy" much to refer to adults out of college age, and definitely not for anybody in their 30s and up. I snicker a little when a letter comes in like "I'm a guy, age 60, and I mostly date guys in their 50s to 70s. I'm looking for a guy who..."

@23 CMD: I recently watched UK's "Love Island" and found it delightful how everybody referred to "boys" as naturally as they did "girls", and occasionally "women" and "men". (Cast members were age 20-28.)


As they tell us in those mandatory HR sexual harassments trainings, an offense is in the eye of the offended regardless of your background and what you may have meant.
I know it’s a bit harsh but the same can be applied here and attitudes can change by using different wordings.

I personally don’t like how we bring genitalia in negative connotations and cringe when I hear “stop being a dick” used so liberally, including by people who would be offended by the use of “cunt” in that same connotation. (Credit for Lava for taking note of this few months ago and mending her ways.)

I think “boys” is used mostly by gay men while referring to their peers, a phenomenon one can observe with other groups referring to their members in what could be a slur otherwise.
The use of “boys” in mainstream, like British pseudo-reality shows, is minuscule in comparison to “girls” being so wide spread.


I am equally surprised we got this far without mentioning Uncle Bonsai's "Penis Envy"


@20 Babes or chicks might be OK.


I'm in agreement with IWasSfR. "Girl" is a pretty standard equivalent to "guy" in my region, and both are used across wide age-range swaths. Claiming the equivalent has to be "gals" is a bit like claiming it has to be "dolls." Maybe in some very particular contexts, but mostly it's regional, and most of America doesn't say "gal" anymore.

"Woman" sounds oddly formal to me in many contexts. I'm a 39-year-old woman, but in all gender/relationship/whatever conversations, I think of myself as a girl. Not as a statement of youth, just, "girl" is the word that comes to mind.

As for offense is in the eye of the offended--eh, whatever. I mean, sure, but if their offense is on behalf of someone else, I care a lot less. I grew up with a couple Indian friends who have told me they much prefer being called "Indian" than "Native American," and so that's the term I use. Sometimes other people, sometimes well-meaning, sometimes interested in point-scoring, correct me. shrug Presumably the guy's girl doesn't mind being called a girl. If she does, then she can police his letter-writing.


Yeah ciods.


Girl is one of the words to describe us which doesn’t have the word men or male in it.


Knowing hunter is on the other side warms my heart.

slomopomo @ 27
Thanks for the reminder re uncle Bonsai, a great local trio I saw few times during the 1980's and took the kids to their reunion/resurrection show few years ago. Always loved their witty lyrics and amazing vocals.


In My So-Called Life, Patty describes Amber as "this forty-year old girl," and it's remarkably apt.


Here's some science that says the semen-haver taking ibuprofen or aspirin can reduce prostaglandins in the semen: but be careful of long term use of NSAIDs


ciods @30: Here in Canada, we were calling our native people Aboriginal, but then someone realized that the Aussies have tainted that term, so now we're going with Indigenous.


OOO you're in a monogamous committed relationship, but you're allowed to cancel the commitment and end the relationship if it's not working for you.

Reading your letter, I'm not sure how "immature, selfish, and has an unrealistic end game" applies. It's not immature to evolve; nor is it selfish. The unrealistic end game sounds like staying in your current relationship. Bail!


What do you mean tainted, fubar.. sounds a little racist.


Hunter @29, I'm not surprised this is your first exposure to the feminist concept of addressing grown women as if they were grown women and not children. CMD, this woman thanks you for your enlightenment and support.

Fubar @37, yes, I too wondered what the "unrealistic end game" was referring to. What does the girlfriend (oops, should I say womanfriend?) think OOO's "end game" is? To be polyamorous? That's realistic. To be polyamorous and also dating her? That's unrealistic, but that's down to her, not due to any inherent unworkability of non-monogamy. To find out through a single encounter whether she likes men? Sure, men are different and she may not have a good time with the first one, but we don't know really whether OOO is seeking an ongoing non-monogamous relationship or a hall pass. Either could be "realistic" if the partner were down. Or is her attitude that once she experiences men, she won't want women anymore? That's unrealistic, given that the partner herself is bisexual and should know better. Regardless, what's unrealistic is for Ms OOO to expect her partner to give up this part of her sexuality and not resent her for it. OOO could continue watering her grass while having a casual boink or two with dudes; she may be willing to return to monogamy once her curiosity is satisfied. But if Ms OOO won't accept that then I agree OOO should bail.


BDF: "give up her sexuality" is pretty damn insulting. It's going back to that old stereotype that Bisexuals are sluts who can't ever be faithful because they're always going to have to be bonking both genders - and that's bullshit. The world's full of new and interesting people to have sex with regardless of your gender preferences, and it's not "denying your sexuality" if you don't bang them all.


@28. Heh. I realize you're being cute, but fwiw, I grew up with the word 'chick' being used commonly and non-offensively. I self-describe with it, and occasionally use the word elsewhere. But. My nonchalance notwithstanding, 'chick' differs from 'girl' in that it isn't quite so neutral and has a distinctive flavor about it, and I wouldn't use it anyplace it wasn't damn clear that it would be received inoffensively. Unlike 'girl' which in my opinion is just neutral language, the onus is on the 'chick'-user to make it clear their use is friendly. It is not in common use anymore, at least not where I live, and was never as neutral as 'girl' even if it wasn't offensive.
Incidentally, my thoughts travel, and I'm noticing that 'girl' is the casual equivalent of 'guy' but I can't think of anything for males that matches the flavor of 'chick.' (Or 'broad' for that matter, which has a more dismissive flavor, and was my grandfather's favorite word for women. Unlike 'chick,' I don't know any females who use/used that word for or among themselves.) Can anyone?


Traffic @40, okay, I apologise to myself. No, I stand by my position that (some - perhaps not all, but obviously this one) bisexuals cannot feel entirely fulfilled without having had sexual experiences with people of their gender and of another gender. If you interpret this as "bisexuals must have sex with every INDIVIDUAL they encounter," that is your issue, not mine. THIS bisexual does not want to be faithful because she is experiencing a strong desire to have sex with men. This does not mean she cannot or will not ever want to be monogamous in the future. And if she doesn't, that does not mean that she represents every bisexual. Clearly, there is another bisexual in this picture who IS monogamous, so your stereotype is disproven. Have a nice day.


I like the word Girl, which is lucky because it’s part of my user name. I didn’t think before I chose this name, that I was being contentious, subversive. It was a throw away I heard my grand daughter utter.
Never had an issue with Girl. Lovely Beatles song where they sing it over and over.
When a man says girl, it depends on the tone and context. It’s often said with affection, that’s how I read it.


Oh so now we have to amend cliches. The grass is always greener on the other side where you water it. What a bore this woman sounds. And mean. Imagine denying her lover the opportunity to experience cock
for the first time.
LW, you really want to stay with someone who uses bad mothering lines to keep you under control?


IWas @ 41
You mentioned geographies and old-fashioned terms. For some the term “girl” nowadays may invoke same feelings as you currently feel about grandpa’s “chick.”
Not saying you’re behind the curve or anything, just be aware that your “girl as a natural language” may be viewed differently by others.
I have a constant reminder of that at work where a middle management male keeps referring to another department he is often at odds with that currently employees only women as, “the girls.”

Lava @ 43
Have your “girl” based on granddaughter’s utter, at least you’re aware of the source.
As for the Beatles, I suspect that many of their “love” songs, at least the early ones, were commercially driven once realizing the huge potential of the 60’s youngsters market.
As you may recall one of their songs from that era, Run For Your Life, goes something like:
Well, I'd rather see you dead, little girl
Than to be with another man
You better keep your head, little girl
Or I won't know where I am

You better run for your life if you can, little girl
Hide your head in the sand, little girl
Catch you with another man
That's the end, little girl

Paul McCartney, a documented violent abuser to some of his exes, continues doing this she loves you ye ye ye shit to this very day.
Apparently some old women, along with hunter, still salivate.


@Ankyl 25. Really? That's interesting. It's definitely not the case in my neck of the woods that 'guy' is age-specific. Would you use the phrase "old guy" or would that seem contradictory to you?

@CMD 45 My grandpa used "broad" not 'chick.' I don't know that I felt badly about his use of the word 'broad.' His actions were another story. His exclusion/dismissal of females was hurtful, but I didn't really associate that hurt with the word 'broad.' I knew no one else who used it, whereas 'chick' was common enough lingo.
It does appear from this thread that 'girl' is not so universally accepted, but it neither does it seem to be universal disparaged. I'll assume then that the LW hails from someplace that uses it neutrally.


Also, re: "not associating 'broad' with hurtful sexist attitudes/behavior"... In my experience 25 or so years ago, it didn't matter which word was used if someone wanted to disparage females. "Just a woman" "throw like a girl" "run like a girl" "womentalk" etc etc ad infinitum and at the time they were most definitely meant dismissively. The Fact Of Being Female was the issue. To be female was to be less respected and/or treated differently in general, and so perhaps that's why it doesn't seem associated, for me at least, with any specific term. I don't think it's like that very much anymore.


Thinking further, perhaps that's why I felt compelled to speak, even though I'm normally quiet here, when it seemed an innocent use of 'girl' was, in my view, misunderstood/misconstrued as dismissive, because I remember what intentional disrespect felt like and don't think people using a word neutrally/respectfully should be lumped in with those who are dismissive/disrespectful.


Yes, I realized after publishing that I screwed up on “broad,” so in the spirit of Easter I turn the other chick…

I agree that LW use of “girl” probably wasn’t meant to be hurtful or demeaning, but as you noticed yourself words can have different associations and meanings to others and should not be dismissed.


Ooo - If you don't feel sexually fulfilled in a relationship, don't blame your partner or try to manipulate them into doing what you want. But it's ok to tell them you feel bad if you own that it's your problem, and to end things if you want. If you mostly want to explore your bisexuality now, tell her you're sorry that you can't keep your monogamous promise anymore, you need to break up. If she wants to keep seeing you nonmonogamously, she will. Or you could get back together monogamously after an exploratory period. Maybe you just needed to date this bisexual woman to realize you were bisexual. Or maybe you deeply love her and you'll decide you can live without dick for the rest of your life because you don't want to hurt her or lose her and her pussy is just all that. If her pussy was truly fulfilling, you wouldn't be increasingly fascinated by dick though. I don't agree with your girlfriend that you will necessarily feel sexually fulfilled by watering your own grass. It's ok to break up. You thought you would continue to feel fulfilled with her but you couldn't, but now you know yourself better and will make different mistakes next time..

Imfaa - why do you want to tell your friend how to live her life or expose the affair? Help is only appreciated when it's asked for, you can't help someone who doesn't want help, but you can always make your life better and help set a good example. You can protect yourself from feeling bad by withdrawing when you can't agree to disagree, try to calm down.. remember the value of peace.. She hasn't figured out that cheating is unhealthy in relationships yet, and you've failed to explain it to her.. but you thought cheating was ok sometimes, maybe you could use improvement in learning to treat people with respect too.

Pmp - I think sex organs are fun to think about too! The clit is the homologue of the penis.. anatomically equivalent tissue makes either or.. I liked Hun's suggestion, get to know your sex organs better, enlarge the visible part to look more like a man's if yours isn't big enough/too much foreskin (lips) to look like a micropenis naturally.. And don't forget to have fun playing with the bulbs internally too, they're the unique fun parts of being a woman, a man's bulbs are small and inaccessible!

Whoa - whoa thanks!

Cum - I guess nerves. Learn to relax and enjoy sex without orgasm, and orgasms are more likely. Or just both finish yourselves off like Dan said, but nerves can interfere there too.

Msa - it sounds like this hasn't happened to you before.. It sounds like he produces more proglastin than usual maybe, but he can't help it any more than you can help the products of your digestive system. Dan gave a longer answer to a similar woman who had this problem with all men here

It's unclear whether he or she wants to keep swallowing in the repertoire, it's not necessary for sex. She can try to change her diet. He can experiment with his diet and get very good at eating her pussy to encourage her.


Broad or dolls are not words I think Australians have ever used much. Sheilas is what I remember. Chicks, of course. Babe! Now come on. People are fine to be called babe, and not girl. Girl is a pretty word and it reminds one of carefree times before the two Bs. Blood and Boys.


Has anyone got good book references for how to navigate blended families.


@1 Anklosaurus: WA-HOOOO!!!!! Major congrats on scoring this SL: Quickies FIRDT Award! Savor the vast glory of leading the comment thread. :)
@15: You'd gripe about winning the lottery, too, wouldn't you?

Wow--already we're at @51! Griz has a lot of catching up to do. There was a lot going on--I went to pick up my beloved car from winter hibernation, and am now looking into spring auto maintenance to get him ready for summer. Meantime, with the nice weather, I'll be washing and waxing my sweet VW this evening. The Lucky @69 ward will be up for grabs soon.
Back to Quickies.


@54: Okay--now comment @54. The week is going fast.


IWasSfR @41 Does "dude" come close to the flavor of 'chick'?


LavaGirl @52
People seem to like these:
* Kathi Lipp and Carol Boley's But I'm NOT a Wicked Stepmother!: Secrets of Successful Blended Families

Patricia L. Papernow's Surviving and Thriving in Stepfamily Relationships


@ CMD. Very punny. :)
@Erica. That's a good suggestion; it just might. I can hear that being used in a very similar way. :)


LavaGirl @38: I mean tainted by Australians referring to their indigenous people as "Aborigines" or "Abbos", and so on. It's become a derogatory term world-wide.

This week's conversation makes me laugh about your use of "girl" in your handle, and your contempt of girls and their daddies in a kink context.


@58 Not to claim moral superiority. Canada was just as rotten to its indigenous people. Some of us call it genocide.


@30 ciods
"a couple Indian friends who have told me they much prefer being called "Indian" than "Native American," and so that's the term I use."

Use with them? (Of course.) Or do you mean use generally? Even though when last I heard "Native American" was the term I understood was considered preferable?

I may well be misguided here; I'm reminded of a bureaucrat I used to know that scolded me to call black people "African Americans". Which I think was probably because he didn't know any, and when he spoke of them in his role as a public official he /was/ supposed to call him that only because he was 'the Man'. Whereas I spent so much time in black culture it became quite an effort for me to speak white, and none of the black people I know would ever themselves, or want me, to use the phrase "African Americans".

My point being, was I wrong that I thought "Native American" was preferable, and it really is just a term 'the Man' deserves to have to say?

@36 fubar
"Here in Canada...we're going with Indigenous"

You are? A dozen years ago I spent some months way up north and I thought it was "First Nations".


@60 p.s.
To be direct, I haven't had the pleasure of knowing any "Native Americans". But I'm not 'the Man'...but I still don't know that I've earned the right to call them what ciods does thanks to her friendships.


Me personally, I think the issue isn't "girls" specifically, but calling grown women in a professional capacity girls. "My wife is out with the girls" it's pretty clearly casual, invoking a similar way to how I might say "I spent last night out with the boys "

The complaints about calling women "girls" originally comes from a different place. "See the girl in HR" or "She's the girl who wrote the paper on retrogene sequencing" or the like. Situations in which a man would never be called a boy, or even considered to be called a boy and done explicitly because women were seen primarily as "cute" in a diminutive way, regardless of the context.

Seeing this morph into women trying to police other women's speech for casually referring to girls is somewhat distressing to me, and seems to completely miss what the actual problem was. And frankly still is, because there are places it still happens.


Lava @44, thank you. Nailed it!

CMD @45, you're correct that context means everything when the colloquial word "girl" is involved. Calling oneself a girl, calling oneself pretty much anything, is almost always okay. Using "girl" and "boy" in dating contexts is fine -- because both terms are used so equality is maintained. There are no "girls" working in an office; the context of this is probably that their lower salaries are justified because they are less important than the "men" in the offices. Clearly the context of referring to one's partner as a 34-year-old girl rubbed many people up the wrong way.

It was John Lennon, not Paul McCartney, who, not coincidentally, both had a history of spousal abuse and sang the song "Run For Your Life." In the 60s "little girl" was not seen as creepily as it would be today. They also had another song, also with John singing lead, called "Little Child." Hmm, perhaps we are learning something else about Mr Lennon.

CMD @49: Turn the other chick! You get a gold star for lightening up the thread. Well played.

Philo @50, it was my impression that IMFAA's friend was involving her by constantly talking to her about her drama. Re-reading, this may not be the case. IMFAA should make it clear she doesn't support her friend's actions and won't listen or advise her on the subject.

Curious @60, the push to use the term "African American" seemed xenophobic in its own way to me because hello, what are you supposed to call black people who aren't American, such as Naomi Campbell or Idris Elba? It would be insulting to call these Black British people "African American." Perhaps "Native American" is falling out of favour for similar reasons. After all, these people are not native to America -- they were here long before white people imposed the concept of America on them. Not all people would think being labelled as "American" is a compliment, which is why indigenous seems to be gaining momentum.


@5. Sublime. Right.

Why is it 'selfish and immature' to want to take a male lover? What 'unrealistic end game' does OOO's gf think OOO is playing for? It is not unrealistic for two women to be in a primary poly relationship, and for one of them to have a valuable, emotionally substantial relationship with a male secondary. It happens. Does OOO's partner fear being left for a man?

@64. Hunter. Not really, but he's the only choice.

These 'quickies' are very diverting. Many of them could have been longer. There's a spectrum of people with different real problems.


@6. Bi. I'm not sure that Ms OOO has had sex with men. What's the purport, in context, of the remark about the grass being greener where you water it? Why can't a bisexual woman water a relationship with a guy? Is the gf saying, implicitly, that she thinks OOO will neglect her in pursuing sex with men / a man? This does not have to be the case. There are a range of different end-games, or ways this can pan out--but I doubt it will end well for OOO's gf if she continues issuing a blanket 'no'.

Everyone's advice to PMP has been good (Dan's, yours, Sublime's, Lost Margarita's @11). Fantasising about having a dick does not make you trans. There's more to gender identity than genital endowment. PMP, don't overthink this but take pleasure in this!


@12. Hunter. '[M]ost het men would be very much turned off by the idea of being pegged'. I don't know about 'most'. 'Many' I would accept, but 'most'... where is the social science?

@40. Traffic. But how do you respond to all those things OOO's partner has said? About OOO being selfish, immature and angling for an unrealistic end game? About the grass being greener where you water it? They don't seem panicked, controlling or denying to you?

@44. Lava. Well said.

@50. Philophile. As someone with a small penis, I wouldn't in thought or fantasy associate my dick with a clit. The phastasmatic connection, in psychoanalytic terms, between the prostate and clit would be far stronger.


I’ll take it for all of us. We could use the luck,


@63 BiDanFan
It is indeed perverse that that never seemed to matter here in the United States of Xenophobia.

I don't think "African American" ever was in favor except as it's use deserved to be imposed upon 'the Man'.

Is US usage moving towards 'indigenous'? That would be wonderful.


Harriet @67, I took that grassy comment to mean that if OOO wants her relationship to flourish, she will "water the grass" ie put effort into building a strong monogamous sexual relationship instead of wanting to boink others outside of it.
I think Ms OOO can say no to this request, but she is not saying "no" in a way that is sympathetic or conducive to continuing their relationship by calling OOO selfish and immature. If she thinks that way about her girlfriend, why is she still with her? She could do some grass watering herself by listening to OOO and giving some kinder and better worded explanations for why she does not OOO to explore her desires.

Harriet @68, my Google fu is failing. I think that you have not been with many -- by strict definition with ANY -- straight men, so I don't think your experience is a good yardstick for straight men's preferences. In my experience as someone who likes pegging, it is indeed a minority. I got no hits for "percentage of straight men who like pegging," but there was this:
To the question, "Have you ever put anything up your ass?" 71.4 percent of men said no, 28.6 said yes. And to the question, "Have you or your partner ever used a strap-on during sex?" 14.8% said yes, 50.6% said no, 13% said no interest in trying, and (surprisingly) 23% said yes. Adding up the yeses and the would-like-to-tries still gets a minority result. The question could also include men who've been the wearers of the strap-on, and despite the publication's title, the sample would seem to include people of all orientations. (
So I agree that by any definition of "most," most straight men would indeed not be up for getting pegged.

Donny @69, congrats!


I was completely wrong. Men have one bulb. Tucked underneath the balls. Apparently I need to think much more about sex organs..

CMD I missed "turn the other chick in the spirit of Easter", that was great. And hi Alison, good to see you again. Hi BDF, glad we seem to agree!

Hm, a choice between an old white man I'm not too familiar with and an old white dishonest or deluded, charismatic, wealthy, vengeful, boastful, blamingly irresponsible man. People seem to think vengeful is a strength, and seem to be fascinated by the charisma and blaming and boasting, like other notorious leaders. Or the flashy wealth, but you never know whether that's inherited, earned income, or credit, especially without tax returns.

I think he'll win because when people are scared, they are comforted by the familiar. Biden would have to reach so many isolated people right now. Like a TV series where he put all the recovered and young less at risk people back to work in Healthcare and reopened society complete with work from home jobs for at risk people, push for testing and treatment funding, faster vaccine approval amidst a pandemic.. and congress better be able to pull together a secure way to telework after spending 25 mil.. Show he can do something about the depression and unemployment and wealth gap that's affecting the country right now.


Harriet, the clit and penis are formed out of the same developmental tissue, they are anatomical homologues. Y hormones just stretch the tissue into a penis instead of a clit, it is still tissue with cavernous spaces blood can fill and engorge to signal the body is ready for sex. You may be unaware that most of the clit is internal? It looks like a man's bulb is sort of wired up to the prostate, is your good feeling sort of connected to your balls? Or maybe you like the gland massage more than the swelling bits?


Harriet, I doubt you have a micropenis, but still if you'd like to identify with women more, it might help to watch some big clit porn, I think this is female..


@60 Curious, I see I was unclear when I said "That's the term I use." I mostly meant when speaking about those friends in particular, or speaking in friend groups that include those friends. In other circumstances, these days I try for "indigenous," as fubar mentions, although it takes some conscious effort, as "Native American" is the term I used most before.

On a related note, I saw a video a while back in which a number of black people were asked what term they preferred, and most said "black," feeling that they had no meaningful ties to Africa anymore. A few who were not American made the point that Bi does @63; it is indeed ridiculous to call a Brit "African-American." My current friend group, I admit, is pretty white-washed, so I haven't had this conversation with anyone in real life since I saw the video.

Personally, I find Americans' inclination to append some other nationality to their identity as pretty funny. Cute but sort of content-free. I've met countless people who identify as "Italian American," say, without speaking Italian, ever having been to Italy, etc. "African American" feels a bit like that, to me, as well.


There's a lot missing from L1 - how did LW1 roll out her newly accepted desires; how has LW1 treated GF1's being bi and her means of dealing within their monogamous relationship, how much of GF1's odd-seeming response might have been based on her own restraint, or even does LW1 feel not fulfilled now or is she assuming future non-fulfillment? If LW1's desires "include" acting, are there any wading pool activities that might be helpful before diving into the deep end? This also could flip their relative positions within the couple on a particular point that GF1 might have, knowingly or not, been using as an anchor.

L2 seems a classic BCWYWF - maybe C2 is a CMY pairing and are actually really well matched. "I wanted my friend to cheat, but now she's a cheater!"

I am content to thank LW3 for not calling herself a [rhymes with hurlbag].

I've known of experiences close enough to L4.

At least LW5 didn't pair "girl" with "man". Maybe have a follow-up question ready for cross-examination, but I would not expect to find a rabbit in that particular hole.


BDF @ 63
“Run For Your Life” was written and composed by both Lennon and McCartney and Lennon was the lead singer in those days. In any case, he expressed remorse for writing that song few years later and his abusive behavior, as far as I know, did not carry on during his post Beatles days. He also expanded his writing material to touch on other subjects beyond I wanna hold your hand.

McCartney on the other hand- how symbolic- was accused by one of his recent exes of beating her and similar accounts by other women who were involved with him have surfaced.
That doesn’t stop him from cfurther promoting the skewed, childish, naïve perception of “love” and relationships like he did 55 years ago.


Oh hi hunter-
When I wrote, “I think “boys” is used mostly by gay men while referring to their peers” it was in reference to a previous post by an assumed gay man who found it refreshingly “delightful” to find “boys” used by a mainstream straight crowd.
I assume it was refreshing since the word "boys" as a reference to grown up men isn't used very often outside of gay circles.

A far cry from your “nonsense belief that currently the only use…”


curious2 @60: The term "Indians" is being replaced by "First Nations", which refers to the nations that existed on this land prior to our nation, and that continue to exist. "Indigenous" is a blanket term for members of those nations, plus Inuit and Métis.


@70 ciods @78 fubar
I need to get out more, I can't wait to hear people using the term "indigenous"!

Yes, the -American suffixes are ridiculous and provincial, I'm embarrassed to have never thought of them out of the context of my society.

I love "First Nations"!

I also honor that, generally, oppressed peoples enjoy the right to ask the public to call them whatever the hell they want (as long as that doesn't change too frequently to keep up, for example every 36 hours); certainly the least the oppressors can do.


Crikey, she’s a bonza sheila.
Sorry to interrupt, it just came to me and thoughts really have become fleeting.


Harriet_by_the_bulrushes@68 No? "Oh gee, I've just discovered I have a new sexuality, and so I simply must explore it by having sex with other people and I don't see why my monogamous partner isn't into this" is a pretty damn immature position. It's also ridiculously unrealistic. Single-and-exploring or poly are both realistic end games. "Hey, monogamous partner, can I screw my way through a football team and have you be here to take me back when I'm done" is not.

As for "the grass is greener where you water it"... that's... literally every relationship? You put effort into relationships - romantic, platonic, poly, whatever


@44 LavaGirl: So well said.
@45 CMDwannabe: Uhhhhhhhhh.......what a chilling reminder of creepy song lyrics. My two least favorite '60s British rock songs are the Beatles' Little Girl, and Under My Thumb by the Rolling Stones. As for the Lennon / McCartney song, Run For Your Life...? Eek! I did that nineteen years ago and haven't looked back since.
@69 WA-HOOOOOO!!!!!! Major congrats to DonnyKlicious for scoring this week's Lucky @69 Award! Happy Quickies and savor the envied glory found only here in SL.:)


Only 17 more comments to your sexy mountain man, Lava (@100)! Tick..tick tick...


@49 CMDwannabe: "In the spirit of Easter, I turn the other chick"...
Bravo! I love it. :)


CMD @76, I know you were alive in the 60s and I wasn't, but I was an obsessed Beatles fan as a teenager. All of the songs written by either Lennon or McCartney were credited to them both as a team; the way one knew who wrote them was who sang lead. Lennon wasn't the lead singer "in those days." Each album had equal numbers of John songs and Paul songs, with one token George song and one that Paul wrote for Ringo to sing.

The album Rubber Soul (one of their top four, IMO) consisted of the following songs, with their lead singers:
Drive My Car - Paul
Norwegian Wood - John
You Won't See Me - Paul
Nowhere Man - John
Think For Yourself - George
The Word - John
Michelle - Paul
What Goes On - Ringo
Girl - John
I'm Looking Through You - Paul
In My Life - John
Wait - John and Paul
If I Needed Someone - George
Run For Your Life - John

Curious @79: "I also honor that, generally, oppressed peoples enjoy the right to ask the public to call them whatever the hell they want (as long as that doesn't change too frequently to keep up, for example every 36 hours); certainly the least the oppressors can do." Amen to that. The flip side is recognising intent; if someone is attempting to be respectful by using what they believe to be the accepted term, a gentle correction is in order, not cries of racism/homophobia/xenophobia/etc.

Griz @82, with respect, you seem to look back every other week in these comments. ;)


@85 BiDanFan: In all respect, I only respond to comments that I feel I can relate to.
As of right now, it's 04/18/2020 on Saturday morning after 2:20 a.m. PDT, and Griz has a belly full of red, red wine.


@85 BiDanFan: I just saw another DVD running of Thelma & Louise. Griz needed another dose of Brad Pitt. Half his life ago but woof! Still hot at 56.


BDF @ 85
I was barely alive in the 60’s and we didn’t even have a record player till the mid 70’s or so. Most of my Beatles 101 come from bits and pieces picked from the radio.
The assumption on lead vocals was based on John Lennon as the initial leader of the band; hard core Beatleistas may recall Long John and the Silver Beetles.
I wasn’t aware of the songs order you mentioned, thanks for the 102 lesson, and a recent search told me both Lennon and McCartney wrote and composed Run For Your Life.
I still stand behind my mentioned above cultural observations and welcome yours, and anyone else’s, take on the subject.

All this Beatles thinking reminds me of the personality traits that were associated with your favorite band member. I was “tested” in the mid 1970’s, after Imagine was released, and as one can assume came out as a John. Nowadays I suspect I was a closet George yearning to be a Ringo all along.


CMD @88, the point is that every single song John wrote, and every single song Paul wrote, they are both credited as having written. This does not mean they co-wrote them all.


I got that and acknowledged your expertise on the matter, just wanted to tell you why I mentioned it in the first place and how I came to the wrong conclusion. Rest assured, your input is appreciated. By "cultural observations" I meant my earlier assertion that Paul McCartney keeps selling utopian love songs while being an abusive partner all those years.
Now who's your favorite band member?


Maybe if Can’t Understand Matter stopped referring to his 34 your old sex partner as a girl, then she'd be able to come.


@73. philophile. Then I need a biologist's definition of what a 'homologue' is. I was just taking it as something that is like something else. I knew that one ur-sort of developmental tissue in fetuses develops into either a penis or a clitoris.

I feel in my life that I have wasted a lot of time worrying whether I was anatomically intersex. E.g., when I've been unable to get an erection, has it been because my testosterone has been too low? Experience has taught me that it's been better to imagine, rather, that it's been because I haven't been in imaginatively-stimulating-enough, or emotionally-stimulating-enough, sexual situations. Likewise, I've obsessed about the pronounced ridge on my scrotum. Was this some female sexual characteristic? But, to me, my gender doesn't devolve on my reproductive machinery; I'm happy for it to be, rather, a function of my lifestyle, presentation and choices (inadequate ways to say 'social person').

It's the pressure on my prostate that does it for me, not any connection to sensation in my testicles.

@71. Bi. 71%! Wow! I stand corrected! Straight men, in their plurality, do NOT like things up their asses. Fools! Missing out bigtime, boyfriends! I've slept with lots of men who have subsequently told me they're straight, with marriages, children, jobs, house, cars--all straight (which is the straightest car in America? It ain't the Yaris...); and far more of these have expressed a desire for anal enjoyment than I have been minded or endowed to satisfy. (Now, I do not think I would have slept with almost all these guys if they'd said, '[shrug], het-married!' before sex--but this is another matter (and those were other times). Their lives were straight, in most important particulars, so I think I'd like to say, on my reckoning, they were straight. Of course they may not have been straight by the standard you were alluding to....

In my heart I think we are all primitively polymorphous in our sexuality; and it's through an essentially repressive process of socialisation and maturing that we become one of the main orientations or other (I might make an exception for 1%, as Kinsey 1 homosexuals, but only 'might'; asexuals and pedophiles-by-inclination, in my mind, would probably be more significant exceptions). In line with this school of thinking, my supposition would be that lots of the straight guys saying they don't like it up their ass actually don't like the thought of it up their ass, don't like it in the same way they don't like the idea of making a trip to a vegan restaurant or Gretchen Whitmer. With a bit of coaxing, they might like the plug or the--whoops!--insertion just fine. Of course I am not querying their identity, choices, telling them what to do or refusing, in a political way, to take their self-reports on their own terms.

This has become a bit digressive but I essentially wanted to stand corrected!


@81. Traffic. But where do you get that OOO isn't offering opening up the relationship while remaining committed to her gf, most likely as her primary? Where is there any idea that the relationship, in OOO's mind, will become asymmetric, with OOO being allowed to have outside sex (because she's bisexual) and OOO's partner not? After all, OOO's partner is also bisexual in her impulses.

The person saying, at least, the panicky immature things is not OOO.


@93: The gf is clearly uninterested in opening the relationship, so your suppositions are inapplicable to the issue at hand.


M?? Harriet @92 - Maybe you but not I. But you may enjoy that you did, though, remind me of Sam I am.


@85 BiDanFan (re @86): I wasn't being bitchy, just comfortably numb when I posted in the wee hours. It was a good movie night, especially when there's Brad and red wine involved. You're right, though--some weeks I either can't keep up with the comments--or just have nothing to add to the thread(s) so some SL weeks for me, are read-only.

Who's gonna score that Big Hunsky? Lava? Tick...tick...tick...


Where is comment @96?


Okay, there it is. For once, Griz is faster than her iMac.


And this week's Big Hunsky Award winner IS!!!............


Should this comment be @100 I dedicate it to all 8.3B humans on this planet.


@100 WA-HOOOOOO!!!!!! Major congrats, curious2, and bless you for your global generosity! May good prevail over evil and that we all come out of this okay. We're definitely in it together.
Lucky numbers are just that---Griz just recently scored a lucky lottery scratch ticket for $500. Just in time for auto maintenance on her beloved Love Beetle. I have been contributing what I can--food banks, Planned Parenthood, fellow musicians, the environment, and going to the blood bank to donate a pint this week. Big hugs, positrons, and VW beeps from my Love Beetle and me to all. :)

@4, @17, @20 and others: I see your shared point about grown women being called "girls" cringeworthy. What about a "Girls' Night Out"? I don't know, though---I'm in my mid 50s. Getting carded for buying alcohol makes me smile.


@94. Traffic. Reading OOO's brief letter again, I'd say she was at the stage of asking whether it's reasonable for her to ask her gf to open up their relationship. 'What gives?', she asks. The answer is 'yes, it's reasonable'. If she does ask for this, her gf will have a clear choice to make--'it's over' or 'it's open'.

At the moment, it would seem that her gf has said something to her like, 'many of us lesbians have bi desires, desires for men, but we suppress them, because that's what having a mature lesbian identity means; and it's part of a monogamous commitment to another person. It's selfish and immature to think that just because you have a passing or unfulfilled desire for guys generally that you can take your leave from a monogamous relationship to satisfy it'. Sure--it would be selfish unilaterally to open the relationship because she's all of a sudden heterocurious. If this is what you meant, you're of course right. I wouldn't characterise the situation in this way, however. I think OOO knows what going poly/open is, and is making real overtures in that direction.


@95. venn. I'm not actually clear on what I've done or think that you haven't (or don't).


Griz @96, I was just teasing you for saying you've "never looked back" when you frequently talk about that relationship -- as we all talk about our pasts. Hope you can forgive some well-intentioned ribbing.

Harriet @102, it's reasonable for OOO -to ask-, but it may not be reasonable for her to expect a "yes." She committed to a monogamous relationship; she knows that, whatever her partner's history with men, she is not interested in adding them to her sexual present. So "you can go sleep with men too" will not be a welcome deal-sweetener from her perspective. In other words, she is not selfish because her desire for openness is unilateral; it isn't. There's no sign that -she- doesn't want the girlfriend to have sex with others; it's the girlfriend who doesn't want sex with others.

"At the moment, it would seem that her gf has said something to her like, 'many of us lesbians have bi desires, desires for men, but we suppress them, because that's what having a mature lesbian identity means." Flight of fancy klaxon. I doubt she has said anything like that, because she is not a lesbian -- she is a monogamous bisexual -- and OOO describes herself as queer, not lesbian. (Kids today, right?) I'd also disagree that being a lesbian means having desires for men and suppressing them. Being a lesbian means not having desires for men. Being a monogamous bisexual means having desires for men -- and for women who are not one's partner -- and suppressing them. Sure, there are bi women who suppress desires for men to hide in a lesbian closet for political reasons, but neither of these women would seem to be one of them.


@104 BiDanFan: No sweat. Sometimes I wonder if I really have been talking about my past too much, lately, though. This April 17th was an interesting day for me, upon reflecting back. However, Wednesday, April 18th was an even better day---I picked up my beloved VW from winter storage. I'm happy to focus on the latter. Like Walt Disney's "Herbie", that sweet, happy little car of mine is the true love of my life. When the sun comes out, the top goes down, and heads turn. :)

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