Savage Love May 19, 2020 at 3:44 pm

Power Players






Also.. Ugh, trigger warnings. When will we be done with that nonsense? Does everyone's fragile little psyche now have to be protected from potentially hearing something that may make them temporarily uncomfortable? Where did "everyone should feel safe and happy ALL THE TIME" come from? My only trigger warning is the term "trigger warning."


FASH binge watch Man in the High Castle! Scorchin uniforms.

And did y’all know Hugo Boss designed the original SS uniforms?


Rufus Sewell as Herr Obergruppenführer John Smith. Nazi Zaddie - a Nazaddie! he can ober grippen mine fuhrer anyday!


GRINDR Netherlands public health ministry recommended lonely horny singles get a seksbuddy. of course they are way ahead of US on testing and so much else


I want to know what makes the nazis in FASH's fantasies clearly nazis and not any other white men in a foreign military. Are they actively doing things like torturing and murdering people in death camps? Does she imagine herself in any of these stories, and if so is she a nazi too?

I recommend she play around with the general ideas (ha, military pun!) of wartime enemies; spies and counterspies; uniforms; efficiency, hierarchy, obedience, discipline, punishment; capture and kidnapping; superiority; risk and reward; '30s and '40s technology, style, fashion, trends; northern European looks; good and evil. Maybe there's a combination or other feature that does it for her and she skip nazi stuff most of the time anyway.


@2Jack: PTSD is real. It sucks. For victims of rape and other trauma, unexpected depictions of violence can set off an episode that can fade out in a few moments or take professional help to resolve. I understand your annoyance, but please don't belittle victims.

(Some of the same people can thoroughly enjoy an intense BDSM session, and even experience it as healing. Difference? Choice.)


Plus, a lot of experienced kinksters still need aftercare once an intense scene is concluded, so why wouldn't a vanilla person need the same? LW needed someone to talk them down, to pet their head and reassure them. I don't find that snowflakey at all.


@1 & @2: Jack, again--unclench. If you don't want to be awarded the FIRDT honors, either skip over, scroll down, or pass them on to another commenter.
I am in VA therapy for military service connected PTSD, and am in agreement with @7 Spidieweed, it sucks. Because of the insincerity of your comment @1 and the insensitivity of your comment @2, I officially declare you Number 2 this week.Avis, please try harder. :(


It is no wonder that Nazism is still attracting sexual attention. Beyond extreme fascism it was also an extremely fetishistic, cultish movement and regime. Uniforms, insignia, carefully orchestrated grandiose marches and ceremonies, personality cult, the ultimate evil, and so on.

FASH/LW1- few years ago we had here a “self-hating Jew” Jewish woman who was wondering how to get her German boyfriend play derogatory Nazi-Jew dynamic during sex. I personally know children of Holocaust survivors who as horny teens sometimes got off on reading stories depicting forced lesbian sex in a Nazi stalag (POW camp or jail, not a concentration camp per se though often not that much better).
You’re doing just fine.


LW2: Hale no.

A.) Just because you get off on abuse doesn't mean that you get to make other people listen to it and I didn't consent to be part of your BDSM scene, and

B.) Just because you want to get off doesn't mean you get to wake me up at 3:00am. Shut the fuck up during sleeping hours or move out to a farm where you'll just be frightening the local wildlife.


LW1: no problem. Just have a "Nazi Wank" jar, put some money in it each time you wank, and then donate the money to Antifa. Now you're jerking for justice!


Seriously I need an emergency alert sent to my phone the second it is safe to hook up again!


Nazis corrupted an archetype. Google "archetype" and get familiar with the concept and different types. Also, research "Tom of Finland." Tom's art, mostly of men having sex with men, but occasionally women, explores and exemplifies the archetype of the rebel, in this case the sexual rebel putting many of his characters in jackboots, leather, and other paraphernalia that the Nazis used and perverted. Tom of Finland also did a lot of art with S&M and B&S themes. I don't know why there have not been artists who have taken up Tom's style and expanded on it with more male & female themes, etc. Cum to think of it a lot could be done with Trans themes. To any artists who read this, please consider doing some work in Tom's style.


I can see it now. Colonel Klink bending Sergeant Schultz over his desk just as Colonel Burkhalter walks in. “Kliiiiink! You eeediot! You’ve got jizz all over the secret plans for world domination! Plus you’re not fucking Schultz correctly. Move over!”


All you nazi-lovin’ gals out there feel free to Jill off over my scenario. No charge.


I kind of understand the kink of the Nazi SS uniform on a couple of blond Aryan Adonis' getting it on with each other. However, I found you can get just as much mileage fantasizing about two hot Marines, or two Navy Seals, or (I love the uniforms) European NATO troops. Turns up the mental sizzle without the "ich" factor of Nazism (or any others that committed war atrocities and genocide.


Wait a minute. FASH asked about "porn DEPICTING sex with kids," not porn involving real kids. Someone who has the misfortune to be wired that way can indulge in erotica or animated porn that does not harm real children, much like FASH's fetish does not harm real Jews. Also, both she and paedophiles can indulge their proclivities without porn -- she with WWII movies, paedophiles with innocent videos of children whose sexualisation is only in the mind of the viewer. Surely in both cases, Dan's advice of "as long as no one is harmed and you keep it to yourself" would apply?

Presumably both TVN and the neighbours had their windows open. The possibility that the noises may be overheard by someone who does not recognise them for what they are and report this couple to the police is a real one. Perhaps TVN should drop them an anonymous note and ask them to close their window during BDSM sessions to protect themselves from a misplaced assault charge.


Dear BDF,
Not sure where you got that "sex with kids" thing asked by FASH.

As for the neighbours having kinky sex- I suspect LW is a woman who is somewhat taken off yet intrigued by a woman being submissive and put down by a man.

The two apartments on either side of mine are occupied by what one would likely define as ”kinky couples.” Different gender make up as well as preferences and dynamics. In both cases all seem to be well balanced and in good terms with their SO.
I have no problem with either one. I think they may not be fully aware of what I assume is going on and I pretend as if I don’t know anything, which is really none of my business.

Generally speaking, I think kinky folks are likely to be more cautious of being heard. They have more to lose in terms of being labled, and there’s also more potential shame to go around.


Traffic @11, TVN didn't say what time of night this happened. Dan interjected the advice to not have loud sex of any sort at 2am.

Traffic @12, a great idea!

Jaysin @13, Tom of Finland drew women?? That's a surprise, but apparently true:
From this article it seems anyone interested in straight porn should look elsewhere. I agree that Tom's artwork seems right up FASH's alley.

Jon @17, the Nazi fetish seems separate from a plain old military uniform fetish. Guess it's just nowhere near as subversive to love a man in NATO uniform.


CMD @19: FASH asks: "I'd love your input on whether seeking out Nazi porn is problematic for some of the same reasons that porn depicting sex with kids is problematic."
Dan replies: "Seeking out child porn—searching for it online, downloading it, collecting images of children being raped and sexually abused—is problematic (and illegal) because it creates demand for more child porn, which results in more children being raped and sexually abused. The cause-and-effect is obvious, FASH, the victims are real, and the harm done is incalculable."


Jon @17: Eeeh... Nazis got the whole "control" kink going for them - plus maybe riding crops.


Spidieweed @7: Difference? Choice and safety.


I did a quick search on Fetlife, and "nazi" turns up precisely zero results. It may be a kink too far.

Donny @15: That scenario sounds more like aversion therapy for FASH. Besides, I always saw Colonel Klink as a bottom.


Fubar @24, the site may have banned that word to avoid giving the impression that it supports nazism/fascism. A few years ago there was a big kerfuffle at one of our local fetish nights over whether Nazi uniforms would be permitted at the club, with the organisers having to back down on their "anything goes" policy in the face of outcry. Nazi fetish is definitely a thing, and presumably those who are into it have had to devise code words to get round political sensibilities.


FASH, it's all good because there's no alternative universe in which the characters in written fiction exist IRL. So consuming it has no effect upon reality.

Unless, like, your fantasies influence you to vote for Trump to ensure that there are viable real-life murderous fascists to serve as fuel to fantasize about. (If all things are equal and that seems an issue, could you set your fantasies in an imaginary past?)

TVN, in case this might occur at times you're asleep, as an apartment-dweller with upstairs neighbors I can recommend earplugs(1) and a noise machine(2).

(1) Custom-molded ones are most effective and most comfortable.

(2) I tested many and ended up keeping a "LectroFan Classic" (my favorite setting is a deepish white noise that reminds me of Niagara Falls). I bought it when my neighbors were /extremely/ loud; at first I was surprised I could adjust to sleeping with it, but after a while it became difficult to sleep /without/ it; though I made that adjustment too.


I see others have already mentioned this, but Rufus Sewell as the Nazi officer in Man in the High Castle is fodder for many a guilty fantasy. And if you like to fantasize to mean men in general (and Rufus Sewell in particular) check him out as the bad knight in A Knight’s Tale. That pale blue, dead-eyed stare... Oh my GAWD.


LW 1 here! Thanks everybody (and Dan SQUEE I can't believe this got published) for the input. Two things:

@6, @17, yes, there are totally other ways to play with this involving other military forces, good and evil, spies and occupation etc. But I think part of the key here is that the fantasies are entirely homoerotic, and its playing with the ideas of characters themselves being transgressive/torn/doing things that would be reviled by their own ideology, plus there is more plausibility for absolute power, acting outside of any kind of social norms, because things were just so fucked up during specifically that time. I'm thinking especially about dynamics in occupied countries.

Something that I think got lost in the editing (and I totally see why, the overall ethical question is more interesting and broadly applicable than my internet problems) is that the actual dilemma is more akin to what @24 and @25 brought up, where and how to find this without things getting too real. A quick google search or search of my go-to story archives doesn't turn up much satisfying. Rule 34 says it must exist, so I assume the difficulty is because there is censorship related to promotion of hate speech. Then I sort of found myself thinking, do I really want to be trying to get around that kind of censorship? Am I going to end up in nasty corners of the internet with real neo Nazis? Is that acceptable in the search for porn? That's where the relationship to the kids thing came up... like part of the problem is creating demand, but part of the problem is finding yourself suddenly associating with people who are interested in taking things offline.. Ick. But now I feel slightly better about doing some careful next level digging.

Anyway. Thanks for being the nicest comments section on the internet, I kind of can't imagine another place where this could be thoughtfully talked out.


What a bunch of hang wringing namby pambies writing in to Savage Love these days. Time to get over yourselves L-dubs! It's a big bad world and some of it will be scary to you. Time to suck it up! And maybe you know... grow up a little bit? Good luck... you're gonna need it!


@29 etoile_sombre
Thank you very much for checking in, it's a rare joy for us when a letter writer does!

"do I really want to be trying to get around that kind of censorship?"

Well your succeeding won't undermine the censorship, but as you say you might

"end up in nasty corners of the internet with real neo Nazis?"

If you can handle seeing that and keep yourself safe from it, no problem!

(You might want to create an email address to use only for visiting such sites, and lock up that email address' privacy settings tight.)(I use various gmail accounts for that, including curious784523)


Funny, Phil @30, the only person who seems offended here is you.


For LW2, maybe some sound-insulating curtains would help? It also might not hurt to drop a semi-anonymous note to the couple in question - if the LW can hear them, chances are some of their neighbors (both the LW's and the couple's) can hear them too.

The possibility of cops getting called on them is real, especially if it happens on a regular basis. It reminds me of the story in Michigan where cops were called because the neighbors could hear a woman screaming "No! No!" and then loud noises, and when the cops came they found it was just the husband farting loudly while his wife yelled at him to stop.


@Jina @33: Speaking of funny cop moments...I used to live in a town which is (locally) famous for having humorous police reports in the paper. One I remember went something like: "A man called 911 and asked to have a woman removed from his house because she was 'bitching.' When officers arrived, they determined that the man was intoxicated and the woman was his wife."


@6. Ankyl. I had the same question. Why are her fantasies of Nazis, not of common and garden militarised subfascistic blue line-types? She's reading erotic stories, not watching porn. So it's not a question of some gay guys wearing costumes that progressively (or nonprogressively) and sexily come off. Why are these storybook Nazis Nazis? If they are pushing into Russia or hazing Hitler Youth or sodomising young blond guys to Bach on the harpsichord, this would seem different to me to a camp Kommandant sniffing the air and loving the smell of incinerated Jew in the morning. And saying 'suck me off, Miss Hoffmann'. That would seem to me less all right than the more generic fantasy.

If the Nazi stuff she's reading is like that, maybe she'd do better to write her own or have a friend write hers.

@18. Bi. I think that would depend on whether kiddie porn anime encouraged and emboldened watchers to look at actual-children sexual images, or served as a substitute for them for pedos-by-inclination. Gateway or substitute? I don't know which it is, and would probably want to defer to the social science on this one.


@29. etoile_sombre. Hi, and sorry I missed your fantasies were homoerotic. I think saying something like 'actions' (and 'beliefs disposing to action') 'are problematic, but fantasies are imprinted' is a good baseline. Not exactly a boilerplate but a baseline. Enjoy your evil pseudo-Nazis and source them as ethically as you can. (Would that many actual Nazis be turned on by old-skool WWII reenacting Nazis--as against e.g. 70s vintage Hustler and material by no means in the byways of current straight porn?).


@2, @7, @9 - somehow I agree with all three of you. Obviously PTSD is real, and really unpleasant for those that suffer from it. I think the issue here, though, is that the term has been popularized to the point of meaninglessness so that many, but not all, people use it not when a thing 'triggers' a deeply unpleasant association causing them to have a traumatic and acute response, but when they just don't like a thing. It seems to be seen as hipper or more powerful to say something 'triggered' me than something 'upset' me.


BDF @25: You're probably right about that. A couple years ago, the site lost its credit card processing because of content someone, somewhere, found offensive, and wound up shutting down the blood and scat play groups, amongst others.

etoile_sombre @29: Frankly, if you can introduce the neo-nazis to homo-erotica, you'll have done the world a service.


TVN needs to go see Avenue Q. They make it pretty clear "You Can Be As Loud As The Hell You Want If You're Making Love." They wouldn't have puppets sing that if it wasn't true.


I am quite open about people's kinks, and rarely would counsel someone to stay away from a fantasy that they find arousing, but I find myself unable to do the same for Nazi-themed kink. For me, knowing the history of and living in Germany, using Nazis and the occupation of Europe as the context for one's sexual fantasies is simply troubling.

I also find the analogy with women who fantasize about rape to be misplaced. These are women who fantasize about a particular form of power exchange, in which they themselves are experiencing a highly violative act. LW is fantasizing about other's being violated, with the perpetrators of the violence being fictionalized versions of people who existed and committed atrocities.


As someone who has enjoyed spanking, flogging, and caning women at home, I am surprised that the BDSM couple was engaging in D/S in a manner that their neighbors could hear with little effort. I am definitely conscious of keeping the sounds of BDSM down to a reasonable level, spacing out impacts to keep cries spaced out, and covered up with music that doesn't affect the mood of our scene. That also means keeping windows and doors shut. Doing otherwise if foolish as it only invites trouble.

Oh, and the crack of a single-tail whip? That is actually a sonic boom.


I’m not sure that equating Nazi-themed erotica, even the possibility of an in-person play, with child pornography is the right analogy here. It seemed misplaced when I read it in Dan’s advice and forgot about, which is why I was surprised with commenters keep bringing it up.
That nazi thing is obviously a big taboo, and a very offensive one to many, but engaging in it does not necessarily stand to revive the Third Reich or any of the ideology associated with it. It is a power play with lots of uniforms and strong association with evilness. Extreme form for sure, but one that does not to require willing or not minors and non-consenting adults.


Kinky neighbors should be alerted to the noise they generate while avoiding commentary or hints about the nature of it.
I had a similar issue with one of the kinky neighbors. Instead of an anonymous letter, which may freak people out, I turned to the building management and only specified after hours noise. A reminder to all to keep quiet followed, and the neighbors realized they may be heard and it’s the noise that bothers others, not their kink.
Not sure what they did, white noise machine or sound proof blankets, but it seems to work.


Ok serious question. I once had drunken vanilla sex with someone, and being drunk I was pretty loud, saying things like "yes, that's so good" etc. The next morning my housemate told me (in anger) that the noises had panicked her and made her think of when her dad raped her mum. I thought that was an appalling thing to say to me. I guess she couldn't control the fact that she panicked, but I was horrified by her associating my joyful encounter with something so dark and then TELLING me. Who was the arsehole here?


Elm @45: In as much as there is one, you. Oh, I'm sorry, did you hear something you didn't want to hear? Did you think "wow, that's a private thing that I'm really not comfortable hearing?" Did ya? Well, tough shit, no one wanted to hear you fuck either, but here we are.


elmsyrup @45 - if YOU were horrified by her "associating my joyful encounter with something so dark" and being told about it secondhand, how do you think she felt listening to you? She told you because you put her in a very uncomfortable position and probably wanted to talk it out so it wouldn't happen again for either of you. So sorry you were inconvenienced by her having a panic attack and letting you know, but yes, you were the arsehole here. Not because of your having loud great sex, but because of your response. If your response had been "oh gosh, I'm sorry, I didn't know, I'll be more careful next time" my response would be different, but apparently your response was to become defensive and jump to how you were the real victim here. Your complete lack of sympathy for your housemate - who had just relived a traumatic incident from her childhood - makes you the arsehole.


I was in the middle of a post this morning when my connection went phut. (In fact, it went phut again as I was in the middle of adding to my original.) Here's what I'd typed to that point (before LW1 entered the thread):

Mx Wanna - Those were insiders. LW1 is an outsider, possibly a double outsider (if Mr Savage is correct about the nature of the stories she seeks out; if so, it would have been better optics had she fixed on Italian or Spanish authoritarianism rather than German, but it can't be helped at present).

For now, I'll be content to try a variant on Mizz Liz's recent exercise. [ I’m also turned on by:

power differentials:
authority figures,
hot guys doing each other.]

The last can and sometimes does coincide with the others, but does not belong grouped in with them, and LW1's framing the matter as if it does would be troubling enough if it came from Mr Savage or Mr Ricardo.

I'll take the points of LW1, Ms Fan and Mr Savage. It was a lot easier to okay this sort of thing a few years ago before the alt-right and the re-emergence of a word I'm sure even LW1 would agree should have stayed dormant. And there certainly are aspects of story consumption which could help normalize or trivialize evil, even in the minor way of adding traffic to a particular site. LW1 might be able to avoid consuming material from genuinely abhorrent sources. It calls to mind hatewatching a YouTube content creator, which adds views to someone one may not want to gain popularity. (PHUT)

Now that I have seen LW's contribution, and had it confirmed that her interest is more intrusive than I'd hoped, I thank her for the scruples she's expressed. That's all I'll say for now, as I'm not really up for coping with the YGG brigade. (SECOND PHUT)

I want to let this one sit a while before saying anything more. That so much of the question was about where and how to find "the good stuff" unnerved me a little.


Ricardo, hope he’s going ok.
Re the Nazi fantasies, and thank you LW for jumping on board, it’s interesting LW you’ve told us how stable you are, right views etc yet your fantasies are problematic, for you. Not my business what you let into your mind, except when you share it and ask opinions. Others are taking the time to ponder it, I get anxiety thinking of it.


@48 venn
"The last can and sometimes does coincide with the others, but does not belong grouped in with them, and LW1's framing the matter as if it does would be troubling enough if it came from Mr Savage or Mr Ricardo."

You're right that she grouped them, but I don't think that needs to be troubling because I think it was simply a mistake in jer writing. (Which you didn't quote precisely so I will here:)

"I’m also turned on by power differentials: authority figures, uniforms, hot guys doing each other."

By which I mean that she presented a list of 3 (not 4) things that both turned her on and are "power differentials".

I think her keyboard blurted out "hot guys doing each other" not because it's essentially (to my mind) a power differential when they do, but because it's what turns her on when power differentials implied by the other 2 items on the list have laid the fantasy groundwork for her.

So her listing "hot guys doing each other" as a power differential was just sloppy communication I think.

I'm not sure I recall your stance on women fantasizing about guys doing each other, but just in case if you're against it (and given other stances you have I wouldn't be surprised,) you won't be surprised to hear that that sounds though-police-ish to me; it's none of anyone's damn business what someone else thinks about in their head.


Grizelda, I went on a bit of a CD buying splurge, and one I got is compilation of Joe Cocker. Saw him three times during one visit he made to Sydney. Loved him. And this music is great dance music. My favourite song of his is “ Space Captain” ..🎼 learning to live together, till we die...🎼music, dancing and singing release feel good hormones.


Traffic @46: Triggered much? That was uncalled for.


@35 - it's definitely more the former than the latter.

@40 - point taken, that's why I was asking for input about whether it is a bridge too far. But re: the rape fantasies comparison, I think you're wrong to assume that all (or even an overwhelming majority) of people who get off on rape or violation are picturing themselves as the violator. You know there are people on the other ends of those fantasies right? Or who generally like to imagine certain harmful things being done to others. Just saying, I think the analogy might be better than you think.

@48 - 1) you are right about the grouping, that doesn't belong with the others, except perhaps in the sense of it being a conveniently hyper masculine aesthetic. I should have been clear that virtually all of my fantasies are about guys together, not just in this... Catagory or whatever. Is it problematic for straightish womanish people to focus on guys that way? Maybe. If so we should call it problematic for guys who like lesbian porn too. It seems like by far the least of the issues here. You are right about the outsider thing though. I would feel much less conflicted if I had some historical tie as suggested by @10. HOWEVER, your characterization that I was asking about how and where to find such content is deeply unfair. I was asking if it was inherently harmful or unethical to try.


fubar @52: Do you just not understand what words mean or something?


@49, nah, I'm not so worried about the fantasies, unfortunate imprinting somewhere but meh you roll what you roll fetish wise. Again the question was about the seeking out.

@50 Yup, that. What can I say, I came or age in the golden age of slash fanfiction. It stuck.

Wow kinda weird to keep something super private and in your head for years and then suddenly be processing it with a big group. Interesting day.


Venn @ 48
As a Jewish person I was not taking advantage of such thing as an “insider privilege” while exonerating LW1’s sexualization of Nazism.
As someone closely attuned to attire, power play and gender dynamics my comment was merely a reaching out to another kinkster, assuring them I know where they come from, maybe help in finding acceptable parameters and peace of mind.

I don’t think the double outsider status you awarded her is fair nor is it relevant, and claiming YGGism also seems misplaced.


@53 etoile_sombre
"Is it problematic for straightish womanish people to focus on guys that way?"

IIRC venn is gonna say yes, but as I wrote @50 I think not.

@55 etoile_sombre
"Wow kinda weird to keep something super private and in your head for years and then suddenly be processing it with a big group. Interesting day."

Interesting for you to remind us it's interesting. Here it's what we do every day of the year.


It's safe to hook up now. I live in Queens NYC. I'm in heath care and have been in covid wards and in rooms where people are not expected to live. Until recently I only had a surgical mask.
I'm going to prostitutes in areas that are the hardest hit in the whole world, Corona, Elmhurst etc... I haven't caught this bug. I tested negative for the antibodies.
For healthy people it's not as easy to catch as we're led to believe. I'm not denying the death toll is terrible, I've been in the damn morgue trucks. However if you're a healthy person without underlying heath issues you should be ok.
It's not until recently, in the last 2 weeks, that the government is even looking at the number of people who tested positive but had mild symptoms or were asymptomatic. I'm betting the vast majority of people that were positive didn't require hospitalization.


@37 Exactly. That is what I meant - the overuse and watered down to nearly meaningless it has become. Similar to the use of the word "literally" - which, if I'm being honest, is also a "trigger" for me (EVERYONE JUST STOP SAYING IT PLEASE).

I didn't mean to belittle victims of real PTSD, so apologies if it came off that way. I've just dealt with a lot of privileged little snowflakes that have never had any real life problems and their self-centeredness can be a bit much.

@Griz, I'm not insincere. I'm just here to comment on my favorite column - which I've never missed since I started reading it twenty six years ago. I just think this preoccupation with who commented first is a bit silly so I'm going to poke fun at it. I was inspired by a comedian I saw yell "cities!" as a response to the cheering you get from a crowd by just uttering the name of their city.


Oh curious, you make me smile. And that’s a good thing.


Haven’t seen you round these parts Jack @59, except lately. go crash someone else’s party. Our numbers’ game is play, enjoy it, or zip it.


@51 LavaGirl: My all-time favorite Jow Cocker song is his recording of WIih a Little Help From My Friends, which was used as the TV theme song for The Wonder Years.
@59 Rain City Jack: Okay. Thank you for further clarification on your previous comment. I have read Savage Love in The Stranger even longer than you have, originally in print form-----twenty-seven years, since 1993, but haven't seen your screen name until recently. Whine or poke fun all you want, but I'm still placing you as Number 2 this week. Rain on someone else's parade, Avis.
By the way, if you have issue with the FIRDT Award, other previous commenters had made a first post game of it because the commenter to make @1 that one week was so excited he / she typed FIRDT! in all caps. I think it's rather funny, myself and really don't see the big deal, here.

@61 LavaGirl: Thank you. Agreed and seconded.

Who's up for this week's delicious Lucky @69 Award? Tick...tick...tick...


@45/elmsyrup: I am going to say that your roommate approaching you in anger was in the wrong.

@46/Jina: @elmsyrup's roommate did merely inconvenience her, she angrily confronted her. Her roommate may not be able to dictate how she feels when overhearing a consensual sexual encounter, but she can control how she responded to these feeling the next day. I would be more understanding of this response if @elmsyrup had been engaging in a dark D/s sexual encounter, but she was calling out positive reinforcement, "yes, that's so good." If listening to a positive sexual encounter is going to elicit an angry response, then @elmsyrup's roommate needs additional therapy and either needs to make quiet sex a condition of moving in with a housemate or live alone.


@47 my response at the time was "I'm so sorry". I bit my tongue about it being a shitty thing for her to say to me. Years later I reminded her she'd said that, and she didn't remember or didn't believe me, but it really upset me. It felt like she was turning a beautiful thing into something dirty.


Also, apologies. I didn't fully clarify in my original post whether I responded to her in anger or not, so there was no way for people to know. I do agree that yelling at somebody for having a panic attack would also have been shitty behaviour.


Elm @45, I don't think there was an arsehole there. OK, maybe you could have kept the noise down. That was potentially inconsiderate, but not an arsehole move. Sometimes sex gets loud. Was she an arsehole for being triggered? Of course she wasn't, she couldn't help the memories those sounds brought up. Was she an arsehole for telling you what her response was? I can't see how. She wasn't making up some story to justify asking you to keep it down, she was sharing her reality with you. If this is the first time that happened to her, I would suggest she should have sought therapy and possibly avoided living situations where she might overhear roommates having sex. Elm @64, so it was okay for you to feel upset because of her words but not okay for her to feel upset because of her feelings? Your response of "I'm so sorry" was exactly right, so you weren't the arsehole at the time. When you reminded her of what she'd said, do you think she didn't remember because she was blocking out a traumatic experience or because she made the whole thing up instead of just saying "please keep it down next time"? Sometimes there are no arseholes, only misunderstandings. Sounds to me like this was one of those times.


FASH - Look, if you want to festishize a racist, right-wing mass murderer, Churchill won.


Elmsyrup cont: It wasn't "a shitty thing for her to say to you," but the way in which she said it might have been shitty (yelling at you when you'd done nothing wrong). However, there seems to have been no effort by you to see things from her side. You completely dismiss her trauma of overhearing her father raping her mother. Imagine the effect that left on a young mind. But you don't show any sympathy for that and the way it manifested; you're upset that SHE hurt YOUR feelings by bringing it up. So hmm, perhaps it's both of you who were the arsehole.

Jack @59: "privileged little snowflakes"
Funny, because that's how you come across. As a privileged cis het man who likes to bully others for daring to have had experiences too challenging for you to even imagine.
Agree that it was Griz who instituted the lucky 69 and hunsky awards, but not the "firdt!" so you're mocking the wrong person here.


@53/etoile_sombre: @Dan specifically referenced feminist women who fantasize about being raped, as the jumping off point for analogizing why a Nazi-themed fantasy was not problematic. Had @Dan given a pass to a man with rape fantasies that would have given me pause too.

But just as I would distinguish between your masturbating to authoritarian scenes out of 1984 versus the Nazis, I do distinguish between consensual non-consent and rape fantasies, and while that may seem like semantics I do not use these terms interchangeably. As such, it is one matter for a couple to engage in consensual rape scenes, which the female partner requests, but I would find it troubling for a straight man to be trolling the Internet for stories on women being raped, even if I see no problem with his exploring high degrees of power exchange and dark BDSM scene.

Relatedly, I would draw everyone back to a Savage Love from January 1998, in which a white woman with an African-American boyfriend wrote in about her Amistad / slavery fantasy. M/s can be a foundation of a BDSM relationship, but contexualizing M/s erotica in the African-American slave experience is problematic, even if at least one African-American man wrote into @Dan that they did engage in race play with a white partner.

There are very potent fantasies around high degrees of power exchange, and when handled with care they can be safely explored, but there are lines between the safe exploration of dark kinks and fetishizing characters, imagery, and scenes - like the Nazis or southern slave owners - that I would argue are better left unexplored.


I bet there's a lot more Empire porn out there as well - hell, just read 'Jewel in the Crown'.


Actually, 'A Passage to India' is heavier on the homoeroticism.


elmsyrup, your roommate is the asshole. for the roommate, sorry you are damaged, i am too! many of us are. it is our responsibility to deal with it wo/ projecting it onto others. elmsyrup, your roommate didn't do that. she dumped her shit on you to make herself feel better by making you feel worse. that is being an asshole. not only that, she left you feeling badly about it for years, it sounds like, and she didn't even remember? wtf? that's what assholes do.


@37 saying you are triggered is mostly a power play. deal with your shit people. don't expect others do deal with it for you.


@73... cont. and i say that as someone who has a lot of trauma in my past and who is 'triggered' regularly. i keep it to myself. i take a deep breath, and i extricate myself from those situations as needed. i know i am damaged, and can't handle every situation. i see that as my responsibility to manage, not others.


Also, why are there no Congo Free State festishists out there? Hitler was not a good chap, but he was no Leopold II of Belgium.


To add some context to my rather disjointed commentary thus far, it has always struck me as odd the way historical memory works - FASH's Nazi fantasies are transgressive not because the Nazis were uniquely evil (although the Nazis were definitely evil) but because the Nazis were evil losers. The Holocaust was an atrocity, but it wasn't an atrocity without parallel - Churchill presided over the death by starvation of 4 million Indians during the Great Bengal Famine of 1943, an event barely remembered outside India, and Leopold II was responsible for the deaths of somewhere between 15 million and 30 million Congolese while he ran the Congo Free State. It is easy to remember and condemn the evil of history's losers, but it is equally important to remember and condemn the evil of the winners. I guess what I'm saying if that FASH wants to be historically accurate in her transgressive fantasies, maybe occasionally wank to some Raj porn, or jerk off while reading 'Heart of Darkness'. Historical justice demands it.


I agree that the house mate should not have responded with anger, though given what the noises activated for her, elmsyrup, it is understandable. You were drunk at the time, perhaps your memory of your noises and words is not that clear.


Dashing @58: "It's safe to hook up now." Safe for whom? The whole point of the social distancing, sheltering in place guidelines is to reduce contagion. It's not to protect "healthy person(s) without underlying heath issues". You've been working in Covid wards, wearing only a surgical mask, and then visiting sex workers. Did you check if they have underlying conditions? How about their other clients, and those clients' partners?

Elm @64: Your response to your roommate was perfect. Sex can get boisterous. If someone cannot handle hearing loud sex, they need to live alone or like Dan advised TVN, don't listen. Apparently, some people are triggered by reading about loud sex in an advice column. They should probably not read the column.

Phil @73: Saying you are triggered may be mostly a power play, but sadly many of the people saying it don't have a clue about owning their shit.


@76/Pan Sapien: I have to disagree with you. There is something fundamentally different in rounding up a group of people across a continent, exterminating them, and cremating their remains on an industrial scale, and diverting from their war effort to continue this goal even as the Soviet and American armies were closing in. That is not the story of the Bengal famine of 1943 or the Congo Free State.

I would also note that you are citing figures vastly higher than Internet sources, which themselves note that morality estimates are at best "wild guesses" due to a lack of demographic data.


I think it's very sad that commenters have started picking on Jack. He seems to be generally polite despite the criticism he's gotten. I like him, it looks like he's trying to play but has trouble sometimes just like me. (I wish he'd stop calling people snowflakes, I think name calling is lazy and annoying communication. And it's confusing that he doesn't like the numbers game while he seems to be trying to participate. But he apologized when he offended!) Congrats on first Jack!

ElmSyrup - Your roommate was the asshole. Having audible vanilla sex wasn't mean. She didn't notice that she made you feel bad by comparing your sex to her mom's rape! She didn't care when you reminded her years later. And if her mom was yelling "yes more" during her rape, it sounds like her mom was never raped and she's an unreliable narrator.

FASH - If you feel bad after consuming Nazi porn, I'd try making a donation towards a democratic or compassionate cause to express that your actions are against fascism even though your fantasies revolve around it. If you feel bad that there's not enough Nazi porn for you, find someone with similar interest to trade stories, or a partner to play with irl. Same if you feel bad for consuming distressing material in your search for Nazi porn. I do think that advocating for more public Nazi porn online is essentially picking fights with offended Jewish people. If you care so much, set up your own server for it. If you care about your search history, clear it.

TVN - I've known people to call the cops when they hear something that may resemble a rape. It seems when one's actually been raped, they don't tend to listen to verify, just call the cops and leave the premises. So I like the note idea, tell them they were overheard before just blocking out the annoyance, as the next person may call the cops.

GRINDR - Hook up. Just don't hook up with a new partner for over a month after the last date with the old partner. Or find someone trustworthy and be monogamous. One more exposure risk is negligible, the point is to limit our exposure. Not to live in complete isolation from touch or sex unless we happen to live with a sex partner.


"Your roommate was the asshole."
Sorry. I meant, your roommate made the bad mistakes in this story.


Phi @80, I admire your continued dedication to seeing the best in people. Jack, a newcomer, started picking on our Griz for her light-hearted "numbers game," instead of just scrolling past if it didn't interest him, and has now used the word snowflakes, which immediately reveals someone to be the sort who mocks others' suffering, or at minimum has zero desire for the understanding and empathy that are pretty much required to participate in discussions around Savage Love topics. So he's not being picked on, rather getting responses in kind. However, you're right that being called out seems to have been effective. Second chance now in effect.

Re Elmsyrup, I think it's likely that she is focusing on the positive words rather than the accompanying guttural noises which may accompany both consensual sex and rape. Roommate heard Elm screaming during sex and this brought back memories of her mother screaming, which words like "yes" and "more" did not negate. (Just as TVM was bothered by sounds of BDSM they reasoned was consensual.) Or that the words were not distinctly audible and all she heard was screaming. I suppose it is possible a young child could hear screaming and, with no experience of joyful sex noises, interpret these as Daddy is hurting Mommy. I am going to give the roommate the benefit of the doubt though and presume she has reason other than the noises to believe her mother was raped. If she did make up a story like that instead of just asking Elmsyrup to keep it down, she's not an asshole but a monster, and I'm not going to jump to that unlikely conclusion.


Mr Curious - Agreed I should have put a space after the colon; I'm not entirely sure that I didn't attempt one; I really ought to get a new keyboard. I accept LW1's clarification and agree with your assessment that it was inaccurate phrasing, and was rather in the mode of thinking the point should be made than wanting to blast LW1.

LW1 - When you mentioned "what was lost in editing" that was how that post read at the time; I'll accept with good grace that you're more concerned with the ethics of looking for it.

Mx Wanna - I said I stopped where I did because I wasn't up for coping with the YGG brigade. (I was considering thanking LW for not calling herself a [rhymes-with-hurlbag].) I'll defer to you on the questions of uniforms. You brought up two insider cases, which made it seem on a parallel line to last week's question of how excusable it is for different particular people to call Sen Graham the F-slur. Do you hold there to be no difference between eroticizing conduct which could have gotten oneself killed in Another Place and Time (cue Ms Newton-John) and eroticizing conduct that would have been life-risking only for others? I can see a case for that.

LW1 - I'll absolutely co-sign almost any objection I can imagine a same-sexer woman's having to a different-sexer man's expression of an FF fantasy. I just don't (not sure of a good FF colour) Salmon Knight myself, although the practice can be helpful when well executed. There certainly has been and in many places still is a massive double standard. But I encounter more going the other way. In this area, I walk a very scrupulous walk, and haven't fantasized about straight or even bi men for multiple decades.

Mr Curious - Not quite. You may recall my disliking when LWs ask, "Is it wrong of me to feel this way?" Fantasies, like feelings, are not right or wrong for merely existing. Some are a great deal more unwholesome than others, and some are more intrusive than others. Some require a bit of extra thoughtfulness to present in polite company. This leads into my push for separatism. In theory, I have nothing against MM material's being produced to suit women's tastes. In practice, it often tends to take over the market.

One thing that seriously makes me want to kill myself is how gays are being pathologized because the most popular category of MM porn involves "straight" men. Until recently, it used at least to be acknowledged that nobody knew how much of that came from DS men or even women, but now people seem to have decided that it doesn't matter and have started blaming us for it again. I am already on the record as wishing that straight-chasers were considered a separate orientation, but this is entering the realm of that Regnerus study on parenting that counted only multisexual people in DS relationships as SS parents.

LW1 - The more I reflect, the more I incline to my comparison to hatewatching a YouTube channel. There are ways to engage with a mind to harm reduction; you seem inclined to be as ethical as possible, and, so long as you generally spare gays the details unless it's clear they'll be welcomed (consulting an advice columnist constittes reasonable grounds for a dispensation), I'll wish you well.


@79 - 4 million is the number I have seen given in most of the Indian sources I have read, although British sources, it is true, tend to be lower. I will concede that there is no way to know the true number of lives lost in the Free State, but most recent accounts (again, with the qualification, those that I have read) do put the toll in the tens of millions at least. I will admit that I have a bias towards post-colonial histories that tend to accept higher rather than lower estimates. However, I would also argue that once we are numbering the victims of a given atrocity in the millions, we are probably past the point at which it really matters in terms of moral culpability.

It is also true that hatred of the Jews and other minorities is a different motivation than the bureaucratic indifference that caused the Bengal famine, or the ruthless pursuit of profit that drove the horrors of the Free State, but all three were driven by the same racist calculation - Hitler, Churchill and Leopold II all considered the people their decisions killed to be of less importance because of their 'race'. Yes, starving to death because saving your life would require an inconvenient amount of paperwork or being worked to death because its more profitable for the King of Belgium if you die is not the same as being gassed in death camp, but the victims are all as dead as each other, and their killers are equally culpable for their deaths.


@79 SublimeAfterglow - sorry, I did mean to include your name in my reply.


Hachacha @80: Savage Love is not The Stranger.

Despite Dan's byline, Savage Love is an internationally syndicated column that appears in alternative weeklies everywhere. Decades ago, before they invented the Internet, I used to read it in the back pages of Toronto's NOW magazine, next to the sex worker ads.

That said, yeah; nobody but Dan and his team gets to be gate keeper.


Sublime, I'll note that the excellent 'King Leopold's Ghost' puts the death toll in the Free State at 10 million (I probably should have checked first). I would consider that to be a reliable estimate.


Sounds like some delicate snowflakes need trigger warnings before the appearance of trigger warnings.


I love Joe Newton's take on Gustave Doré in this column's illustration.


@90: in case you are unfamiliar:


Dan touched on a really interesting phenomenon in our culture which is that we do fetishize both Nazis and the Holocaust, it's a part of our cultural iconography in a way that other forms of fascism and other recent historic atrocities/ genocides are not, therefore it's going to pop up more in our collective imaginations / fantasies as well. @75 touches on this- it's an interesting conversation. My own opinion is that, in our culture anyway, there's enough of an exposure to the nazi atrocities that people are desensitized to it enough that they can take it into the symbolic / fantasy realm. We watch movies with nazis in it all the time because we aren't learning about it for the first time. If we were, the horror of it would probably pull us out of the story initially. No viewer is going to just accept a pile of amputated hands without asking questions about it in the same way they do a distant smoking tower in a nazi movie. And so you can be dissociated from the actual human horror- if you had to actually think about children gasping in gas chambers every time you saw a jack boot, then all those Tom of Finland drawings would have a different result. ANd yes as is mentioned above, the Nazis understood style / imagery etc.

@79 concentration camps, rounding people up and exterminating them in them, started in Africa- fascist tactics used by imperialist states often turn inward on domestic populations, it was practiced in South Africa especially before done in Europe. And what the Belgian did in Congo was systematic, killed millions in a short period of time. I agree that deaths of millions by famine, either under British or Soviet or Chinese administration, are more complicated, multi-causal, the responsibility fell more with not caring about possible outcomes than deliberately planning them, but the question remains why there isn't iconography or collective fantasy around these horrors. My response isn't that deep, there just aren't a bunch of movies about them and the lack of familiarity prevents the desensitizing.

Regarding Fetlife / Sex Clubs- For simply practical purposes, it might help a little in keeping away the real nazis?? My guess is you couldn't show up in a klans suit either? Nonetheless, there is a lot of sexual fetish around slavery and interacial sex, especially with cuckolding porn- this seems to me to be a better parallel to the nazi stuff than either pedophilia (which is a different ball of yarn altogether) or other historical atrocities.

If we can have a moment of really dark humor- one day there might be people dressing up as Trump fans. Imagine coming to bed with your MAGA hat, a gas station big gulp of soda, one of those blue line flags...


Regarding the loud sex above, I have no opinion about how the LW should handle it- I'd say play some rain sounds or white noise or something at night?

But to the second part of the question, I think kinksters have no more/less a responsibility to keep down their noise level as anyone else. The fact that they are having fun-violent sex is irrelevant. If they were tap dancing it would be the same. If you live in a place in which your neighbors can hear you, it's rude to make a racket. What the hearing neighbors do about it to cope is personal. I'd be more forgiving during the stay-home quarantine.

I once had an upstairs neighbor who was very noisy- sounded like performative responses to me. Of course I have no idea for real, but I'm convinced she was faking all the screaming and moaning- like there's no reason to be THAT loud and it sounded the same every time with so many different partners I just don't believe it. It was annoying as it would keep me awake, but the worst part of it is it got in my head so that even years later if I'm carrying on vocally myself while having sex, sometimes just thinking of how stupid my neighbor sounded can take me out of the moment and make me self-conscious.


@85 PanSapien, I respectfully disagree. The reason we have 'hate crimes' as a separate, more extreme class of crime is because most of us believe that killing/attacking someone, on purpose, just because of who they are (race/creed/gender/sexual orientation...) is worse than killing/attacking someone for some benefit to yourself, so more because of where they are, not who they are. And equating Churchill w/ Leopold is quite the stretch - the war time policies that certainly contributed to the Bengal famine (very hard to say something that complex was 'caused by' any one thing, especially with such a fragile population/ecosystem) were intended as part of a 'greater good' of saving lives elsewhere in the empire, and the empire certainly contributed a great deal of good (government, legal system, roads, trains, etc.) to India along with the exploitation - NB that both Bangladesh and India are still members of the commonwealth. Leopold's contributions to the Congo, on the other hand, are essentially non-existent, and his goal was not feeding troops fighting a war but simply and only accumulating even greater wealth than he already had. And since neither Churchill nor Leopold were motivated by hatred of a group, I think it's fair to say neither of were as bad as Hitler


nocute @91: Wow! Awesome picture, and this week's illustration really captures it.


@92/EmmaLiz: "Concentration camps, rounding people up and exterminating them in them, started in Africa." I don't see that as an historically accurate statement. Centuries before European were colonizing Africa, they had gotten quite good at ethnic cleansing at home. In any event, I don't see this digression as the basis for normalizing LW's Nazi fetish.

As I see it, the question isn't whether people can explore master-slave relationship dynamics or lean into race play within a dominant-submissive dynamic, it is how one contextualizes these scenes, and as I stated at @40, doing so in the context of Nazis is problematic, as is doing so in the context of American slavery. If you or @Pan Sapien want to add Belgians in the Congo or the English in India to the list you are free to do so. But LW, like many others, festishizes Nazis, and not the complexities of Winston Churchill's role in a famine during World War II.


@94 Agreed regarding Churchill, not Leopold. All three of them were white supremacists- whether that's in the white man's burden sense or the exterminating all non'aryans'- what they had in common was white supremacy. But yes, famine in India is complex and has many contributing factors, existed before and after British rule, had a contributing natural disaster, etc- none of this excuses British indifference to Indian lives or Indian exploitation nor their role in fomenting internal disputes. But I disagree regarding Leopold- he was ever bit the monster HItler was and Belgian rule there, the genocide and the disruption, absolutely affected Congo's history with lasting results so not sure what you mean by 'contributions'. And it's not revisionist to see Leopold this way, contemporaries of his time including white missionaries and some of the most popular writers and other politicians likewise saw him as a monster and considered that his administration of the Congo was only possible because he devalued the inhabitants' basic humanity. One could argue that Hitler likewise had no real personal hatred for people of other races- certainly he worked with them when it suited him- and that he needed to scapegoat many people in order to consolidate his own power. Most white supremacists likewise do not go about killing nonwhite people just because they hate them- they believe they are contributing to the "greater good", protecting certain values, benefiting their own family/culture/country. This is why they chant "blood and soil" etc.


@84 venn
"In theory, I have nothing against MM material's being produced to suit women's tastes."

Oh, I hadn't thought about the production's intended audience.

"In practice, it often tends to take over the market."

I guess because (for all I know) there are more women wishing to consume gay male porn than there are gay males wishing to consume it?

In which case I can see your point, as there would certainly be more gay male porn produced intended for gay males if none were produced intended for females.

But is that really right, that women not get the gay male porn intended for their tastes?

To my understanding there is relatively little lesbian porn produced for lesbians, but it's not non-existent. And isn't there some value in a market serving it's audience?

"gays are being pathologized because the most popular category of MM porn involves "straight" men"

Doesn't the porn simply reflect that some gay men are turned on by some aspect of being with/attractive to a straight man (and thus create a market for that porn)? Do we need to pathologize what turns them on? Maybe it's not that they don't think other gay men are perfect, maybe there's just something extra they dig in fantasizing about straight men. (A challenging conquest? A flattering reflection on how impossibly irresistable one is?)

Incidentally, from the other direction I don't think one needs to worry. I've been extremely attracted to bi women and otherwise-lesbian partners I've had, not at all to flatter or challenge myself, but because I loved that my relationships with those women were less burdened by idiotic gender roles.


@Sublime, on the more relevant point, we agree. Master-slave relations, yes- it's about power and control over (or loss of that control) other bodies. The question - as I understood it- is why Nazis (or in the US, chattel slavery) tend to be more common fodder for these fantasies when that power dynamic has plenty of historical and recent examples. It can't be just because the holocaust was uniquely horrific as we can point to other even fairly recent comparable atrocities.

So my proffered solution was that nazism is so well represented in our popular culture that people can see them / follow fictional narratives without feeling those horrors afresh in a way that they might if they were just learning of baskets of hands that cover rubber quotas. So in our culture, some of this moves into the realm of metaphor, costume, etc. so that a person can play act a power fantasy in a pair of jack boots without actually ever thinking of concentration camps.

Regarding the Boers, it's not the ethnic cleansing that was unique as I'm pretty sure that's as old as human civilzation. It was the use of concentration camps that started there. At least according to Andrea Pitzer who recently wrote a history of them which makes up for the whole of my knowledge on the subject which admittedly is not much.


@Curious some gay male porn is indeed made with women in mind (one of cocky boys' founder talks openly about this though absolutely he does not claim it's made exclusively for them) as are plenty of mm erotica (according to Venn in past discussions).I don't know about this "take over the market" thing. My own guess would be that women like different (and more specific) kinds of visual fantasy and men are less picky? But there's an abundance of gay porn of all stripes - I'd have a hard time believing that any porn made for women is overtaking the market of porn made for gay men.

Regarding written erotica, I do believe it. If there is more mm stuff made by/for women than by/for gay men themselves, my guess is this has more to do with women preferring that medium more than men in general. How many men read erotica at all?

My response to that is similar to Dan's regarding women's objections to how straight porn is made. If there's no market for these things, what do you expect? Maybe gay men should buy more erotica made for/by gay men?

But I do agree with Venn that these conditions tend to have consequences that reverberate out culturally- just seems misguided to focus on the point of production as it's more a loop than an arrow.


Wow. I've come to a sex advice column and fallen in to an argument about long long dead world leaders and relative genocides. It's only been the last few years that I learned of dear Winston's racial outlook... and I still have a hard time concerning myself. He's dead and buried. Meh.
ANYWAY. Early in the online hook up world I described myself as resembling a "German soccer player". I got some really unexpected offers. Desiring to be beaten by a "Nazi" is a real thing, oddly. I took that off my profile after a while.


BDF, I admire your patience, perseverance, and willingness to explain yourself. I was more thinking that the mother had lied about being raped, or made a misinterpreted comment about the sex, if she had been yelling "yes more" during the assumed rape. And although I would have a lot of compassion for someone who was upset by sex noises, I think the best solution is to protect herself from sex noises (earplugs, noise, leaving), and not make other people feel bad for making sex noises. If she was concerned about a rape, then she should have involved the police and arranged future accommodations CALMLY when they confirmed the sex was consensual. I'm happy to see you around, thanks for Dutch info, I think it's important that people should not feel doomed to sexless lives for a year or so just because they don't live with their lover.


It is assumed that the two events that most influenced, I’d rather avoid “inspired”, the Germans for building such an elaborate mass murder “industry” were their own glorified show of cruelty and “determination” while oppressing a rebellion in an African colony in the early 20th century
and the Ottoman/Turkish mass relocation and murdering of some 1.5 million Armenians, which started under the guise of WWI.

Both are “fetish-free” for reasons cited in recent posts by sublime and EL.

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