I'm surprised by how calm the comment board is being about the straight guy and his friends who flirt and call each other gay. Even if we take him at his word that he and his friends are "flirting" when they talk about performing sex acts on one another instead of being homophobic (and I have serious doubts about that), they are perpetuating an ignorant viewpoint that categorizes and summaries certain traits as gay. They're calling certain more feminine activities (like cooking or dressing well) gay, which demonizes straight men who are into those activities as less male and gay men who are not into those activities as less gay. It's not their place to be perpetuating those stereotypes. And again, that's if we assume the best about their behavior - it's way more likely that this is a toxic group of white dudes making offensive jokes meant to belittle gay behavior and enforce a homogenous concept of being a "real man".

Put it another way: if he and his friends said "we're so black" every time they did something stereotypically black male (e.g. hitting a basket playing pickup, dancing well, I really don't want to go further since this gets pretty offensive pretty quickly), people would think they were straight-up racists. Like they'd get a beatdown and deserve it.

This behavior is offensive and his wife should create consequences for it. It may not rise to the level of slur but it's still ignorant and harmful as fuck.

Larry, your three reasons that women might be threatened by bi men are pretty prejudiced.

1) "Straight women tend to define themselves more by being the sole or main source of attraction for their partners"
Straight women do generally believe that their partner is attracted to others. I have only found men to argue that monogamy is "right" and if you are attracted to others you are "wrong", even though everyone knows that there is not a soul mate.
2) "There's a lot more shame associated with being gay than being a lesbian"
It's not more shameful or dangerous to be gay as a man than to be gay as a woman.
3) " women tend to make less money"
Even though women do not as a whole make as much money as men, we still have just as much worth as people. Men are not better lovers because they are more capable or make better money.

Ms Cute/Mr Pan - Interesting. I've no investment in the outcome, but hope it won't be like when one was supposed to guess whether to write "trans man" or "transman" and it was important to guess correctly, which was tricky when there was no real consensus. One thing it made me wonder was whether one is/isn't correspondingly supposed to capitalize the W.

Ms Cute - I won't disagree with your dislike of spectrum, but it has caught on among the young, although it's a little more usual to hear the word used about gender or asexuality. The "ace spectrum" is quite commonly encountered in certain portions of YouTube.

It occurred to me that the "positive" uses of calling themselves gay probably play out in a way similar to how, in Notes on a Scandal (the novel) Barbara found that Richard's efforts at being inclusive on her first visit to Sheba en famille came across as othering her. Maybe W2 should introduce a real gay into their flirty circle.

Ms Lava - It is possible this could blow things up later, as nearly happened to a gay couple in Mr Rees' story Watsonville in which, thirty years after the fact, Alan lets it slip to Stephen that he'd known all along that they'd both, during a week when the other was absent from school, purchased a lunchtime climax from the school entrepreneur.

Ms Phile - I agree that W1 does seem very heavily invested in how LW1 experiences the encounter. I don't think I'd want any friend of mine to be that third - way too many tightropes to walk.

Ms Fan - Didn't Jill Sobule get in ahead of Ms Perry? I think you've caught Mr Savage's response well.

BDF @91 I don't know about you, but I would be annoyed (to put it mildly) if I discovered that my friends and family based their interactions with me based on statistical assumptions about how "most" people like me would react...

@101 larry
While I agree we can't necessarily trust that GP is actually using the term positively...

Why are you making shit up? Specifically:

"They're calling certain more feminine activities (like cooking or dressing well) gay"

Go back and read the tiny letter, GP said no such goddamn thing.

Just because we can't know that he is reliably relating that they use it positively, DOES NOT fucking mean you are free to present FALSE evidence that we /do/ know they use the term negatively.

Get a grip. I have better things to do with my time than to spend any pointing out your delusional trolling.

Mr Curious - Perhaps we should first establish what would constitute "a positive way" for a group of straight (or at least practising/presenting as such) men to call themselves "so gay". I'm finding that rather difficult. Now, had LW2 used Mr Seder's defence and said, "It comes from a place of love," that would be much easier to take. Part of what frosted my cupcakes was LW2's blithe-appearing claim that his group's usage is the sort to have a positive effect. The tricky part is rather like when Poirot had to figure out whether Miss Carroll's claim that she saw Jane Wilkinson's face was a deliberate lie or a disinterested inaccuracy. Here, LW2 could be covering up just to get out of trouble with his wife, which would be in keeping with the invited inference of the juvenile nature of the commentary (maybe I should have said that LW2 and his friends can't be gay; they're not nearly witty enough - but there were probably too many layers to that onion). He could be sincerely mistaken about what constitutes a positive effect - likely connected to how some people occasionally think that a positive stereotype is helpful. Or he could think that his good intentions lavender-wash anything doubtful.

@106 venn
Hey man, I agree. I'm at minimum skeptical of GP's claim, extremely skeptical. (Until, as Dan essentially said, they stop repressing it.)

I just didn't want Larry making shit up.

Venn @103, Jill Sobule did record a song called "I Kissed A Girl" in the 90s, but her chorus didn't specify whether she liked it. :)

Jibe @104: "I don't know about you"
You sure like to pretend you do!

Regarding Jill Sobule's "I Kissed a Girl," vs. Katy Perry's VERY different song with the same name, I vastly prefer Jill Sobule's. First of all the music is better.

But the lyrics make it clear that this is a mutual attraction between two women who were already friends and seem to have discovered a new level of attraction. They also talk about their respective boyfriends and it's clear that there is something missing in each relationship, something which might be better if these two female friends get together:

("Jenny came over and told me about Brad
He's such a hairy behemoth she said
And dumb as a box of hammers
But he's such a handsome guy
And I opened up and I told her about Larry
And yesterday how he asked me to marry
I'm not giving him an answer yet
I think I can do better

So we laughed, compared notes
We had a drink, we had a smoke
She took off her overcoat
I kissed a girl
I kissed a girl

So she called home to say she'd be late
He said, he worried but now he'd feel safe
I'm glad you're with your girlfriend
Tell her "Hi" for me
Then I looked at you, you had guilt in your eyes
But it only lasted a little while
And then I felt your hand above my knee

And we laughed at the world
They can have their diamonds
And we'll have our pearls
I kissed a girl
I kissed a girl

I kissed a girl, her lips were sweet
She was just like kissing me
I kissed a girl, won't change the world
But I'm so glad
I kissed a girl.")
Later the lyrics say, "I kissed a girl--and I may do it again" and "I kissed a girl (for the first time) / I kissed a girl (won't be the last time)."

In other words, the main character is probably going to start dating women.

Whereas the far more popular and well-known Katy Perry song makes it all about trying something for the sake of trying it. It also puts the character's boyfriend in the position of giving permission or approval. The kiss takes place in a club, and presumably is a spontaneous gesture, but everything about the song seems as if the kiss is performative, probably so the character can say she's done something and perhaps also for the titillation of the boyfriend or other spectators:

("This was never the way I planned
Not my intention
I got so brave, drink in hand
Lost my discretion
It's not what, I'm used to
Just wanna try you on
I'm curious for you
Caught my attention

I kissed a girl and I liked it
The taste of her cherry chap stick
I kissed a girl just to try it
I hope my boyfriend don't mind it
It felt so wrong
It felt so right
Don't mean I'm in love tonight
I kissed a girl and I liked it
I liked it

No, I don't even know your name
It doesn't matter
You're my experimental game
Just human nature
It's not what, good girls do
Not how they should behave
My head gets so confused
Hard to obey.")

Consider the difference between "So we laughed, compared notes. We had a drink, we had a smoke . . . she took off her overcoat. I kissed a girl" and "No, I don't even know your name;
It doesn't matter. You're my experimental game."

Nocute @109, thanks for that. In the context of NOHOMO's letter, the Katy Perry version indeed fits better.

I’m with you Philo, Dan did put a reason out , and a negative one, for why the LW hasn’t mentioned his homosexual experiences to his wife. Dan didn’t even look to shame as also being a possible reason. No. Straight to these poor stupid women can’t be told the truth because they all freak. And given Dan gets letter from these freakers, he assumes we are all like that.
My ex had had homosexual experiences before we met. As did many ‘straight ‘ men at the time. I found it made his sexuality expansive not restrictive, having worked thru cultural fears of men together. Culture shows so much more interest in sex, when men do it together, than when women do.
Ricardo, Hi. hugs to you.

This man doesn’t say he’s bi, the push to have MMF is hers, so why would she freak? Part of any full intimacy is sharing past sexual lives with each other, it’s an important aspect of who we are.

Food tip. For anyone who likes fried banana and would like a crust on it, grated ginger over the banana gives it that, and great tastes together.

He was 'just generally brutal'. Just ... brutal. Brutal. Honestly. The other guy was gagged, and I am ... gagging. For it. The gag is off, and I am gagging. But how do I ask, given that our relationship has been premissed on fluttery civility and my routinely having fits of the vapors?

That was the letter I liked most this week. I thought Dan's answers were across-the-board shrewd. I am happy to have no view on whether cishet wives worry in heteronorm-enforcing ways about whether their husbands are gay. Usually I either identify with straight husbands or straight wives. In this juncture, I identify with neither.

I agree with @15. CMD. & @24 Lava that there's no reason the lw's wife shouldn't know about his past experiments.

I think all sex is 'acting'. It's stepping into a fantasy projection--being more masterful, or more desirable, than you might ever think you were. And one's relationship with a partner, out of all the work and friendship relationships one has, is, if not exactly acting, then being some part, rather than all, of yourself, just one of the roles you could play or people you are. So the husband simulating a first time m-on-m experience will not have to fake it too forcibly, either fake his pleasure or curiosity. There is the question, I agree, of why he hasn't brought it up with his wife earlier, especially as she finds the idea of his with a guy hot, not anxiogenic.

Ms Lava reminds me of something I meant to include earlier but forgot - it appears W1 assumed LW1 had had absolutely no same-sex experience (the letter doesn't give the impression that she asked and he lied), an assumption that, if I recall my statistics correctly, makes the two of them just about a perfect match.

As for LW4, anyone gay who wanted to be brutalized in the anti-gay way that Mr Savage for one seems to enjoy plugging would not dislike giving oral. Giving oral would be such a gay's dream activity; even had some other problem kept him from being able to perform it, the letter would have included that he liked the idea. Now, why H4 kept footage of that particular encounter and occasionally watches it is likely something that LW4 may be afraid to ask. I don't find the suggestion from earlier that H4 was just being GGG all that plausible, although it's possible he might watch it largely to admire his own acting skills. LW4 may well not be sure about what he wants to know and what he'd rather not. Good for him for not rushing into a question that could elicit a fatal Yes answer. I'm half inclined to hope that each of them has better luck regarding compatibility with his next husband.

Oh, I forgot. I do have a vague recollection of having seen Ms Sobule's video back in the day. I am not sure I'd recognize a song of Ms Perry's if I heard one. I have no objection to the decision that Ms Perry's song is a better fit here, but, given her widespread celebrity otherwise and Ms Sobule's not having many other strings to her bow, I'd incline most of the time to giving Ms S the credit.

But then I know so little of music from anyone after Kristin Hersh that I bow readily to those better informed.

@100 Philophile: WA-HOOOOOO!!! Big congrats on scoring this week's Big Hunsky Award! Savor the glory and bask in the highly envied honors. :)

@101 Larry, no doubts GP is an idiot, but at this point in 2020, I'm holding on to my remaining reserves of outrage as much as possible - who knows what horrors I'll need it for.

Msr. Vennominon @118, ahhhh, Kristin Hersh! "Sky Motel" is an album I've played many, many times. "Catherdral Heat" & "Clay Feet" are standouts.

As a bi/pan woman I was bummed there weren't more out bi men in my area/dating pool. Siiiigh.

I don't doubt that there are straight women who would feelthreatened by their male presumably hetero mate's being bicurious, but I think the LW's wife in this case likely isn't one of them, if his description is accurate. I don't agree w/ Dan's advice to the LW to not disclose to his wife his previous experience before the MFM or MMF threesome. I get the idea of, it makes the scene hotter, maybe, but if it somehow comes up later it would seem deceitful. Group fun goes better with as few lies as possible (roleplay, etc, doesn't apply).

& Sloggers are a well-read open-minded bunch. We might not judge anyone for what floats or sinks their respective boats, but I believe Dan gets plenty of letters like he describes.

Good one MrVenn @118. Yes, maybe these two are a good match. Boys fiddling with each other has gone on forever. Every English boarding school boy sure likes it, it appears, from different biographies I’ve read. This is 2020, more and more men are feeling relaxed going with other men, and those women writing Dan, where have they been. Seems a contradiction to me such women know Dan exists. And if they do why don’t they read his columns.

Lava @112, she wouldn't freak. Dan doesn't say, "don't tell her because she would freak." I'm tired of this debate. Dan is speculating about why he wouldn't have told a generic straight woman -- and as far as that goes, we don't know for certain that she is straight, she could be bi herself -- not passing judgement on this particular woman. He is passing judgement on NOHOMO's withholding this information and deeming it a reasonable decision.

Harriet @116, interesting. I don't think all, but much sex involves an element of acting, whether that is playing the Dom like Mr GAGGED was doing or merely exaggerating one's orgasmic sounds in hopes of eliciting the same from one's partner. If you call someone Daddy you are acting. So I agree, "he'll have to do some acting to pull this off" does not mean there's anything unethical about the role he is playing, of same-sex ingenue.

Venn @118, I completely agree that Jill Sobule's is the better song, and the video is adorable. I was merely referencing the lyrics "I kissed a girl and I liked it," which, when I had alluded to them previously, people did not immediately recognise as being drawn from the Katy Perry song. Some of us want other commenters to know where our cultural references are drawn from! ;)

Dan might not have directly said to LW1..oh your wife will freak, don’t tell her.. Fan @123, he didn’t have to. He implied by his answer that it’s on the cards. It’s called leading the letter writer.

"All the world’s a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts"

"It's not more shameful or dangerous to be gay as a man than to be gay as a woman."
I did not write this well. I meant that it is not more shameful or dangerous to society to be gay as a man than to be gay as a woman. It may be more personally dangerous to be gay as a man.. I think men get beaten up more, and women are more likely to be raped or their career quietly hijacked. I think it's still personally dangerous to be out and gay, that there are still vicious bigots that group up in some places.

I think that most women would agree with me that it feels better for a male partner to explore with another man than to explore with a woman who may get pregnant and demand a lot of child support and may be able to get most custody too. Neither case appeals to most people, most people prefer monogamy.

Our own BDF was badly rejected because she wanted to explore other women. Yet Dan doesn't talk about how almost as many men would refuse to date a bisexual person. One guy I dated basically asked me if I was bi on the first date, he wanted to make sure he wouldn't get rejected for a woman again, guys can be actively biphobic too. It is easier to date the same orientation. But as for whether it's fulfilling to date closer to a carbon copy.. that's a different question..

BDF, I think we can agree that biphobia exists, and is bad. But I don't think it has anything to do with the first letter. The only possible red flag from the wife is that, "She is particularly turned on by the fact that this would be my first sexual experience with another guy." That could mean that she wants to encourage him to experiment when he would normally refrain, in a pushy way, and pushiness is a red flag (if this is bdsm it should be understood by both).. But if he seemed into it, it could mean that she treasures exploring fun new sexual activities with him for the first time together, which sounds pretty healthy, but in this case hiding his experience would run counter to her desire for intimacy. We don't actually know that she wants some virgin MM fantasy rather than a genuine new experience with her husband (and from what I can tell this would truly be the first time either has an MMF).

I do disagree with this:
" One, why did he never mention it in the nine years they've been together; two, why did he not mention it when she first proposed the "first time" MMF threesome; three, should he mention it now."
Two, why did he not mention it when she first proposed MMF?
Three, why did he fail to correct her assumption that this was his first MM experience?
Four, should he mention it now, or after the threesome?

I had assumed that Dan was answering three or four, when he ranted about how women will reject or pathologize bi or experimental guys. I don't think it matters why the subject never came up before. But when they started talking about having an MMF, his prior MM experience became relevant. His wife assumed he was open and honest about participating, so he must not have any relevant hidden MM history, and made an reasonable but incorrect assumption. She should have asked explicitly and never made any assumptions! But I can also understand why she would assume it would have come up in the last 9 years, or at least when they started talking about trying a MMF and it was relevant, if he really had MM experience. I think it's fine for him to keep it private due to his own shame or confusion that he is working on, but not to blame her.

" He is passing judgement on NOHOMO's withholding this information and deeming it a reasonable decision."
Why do you think it's reasonable that he hides his past experience from his wife? Because she wants to be lied to because it would make the MMF better? If I were her, I'd want to know the truth, not be lied to because my husband thought I'd enjoy the lie.. that would just make me question his honesty. And if I found out afterward, it may ruin my memory of the experience too.

Griz, WAHOO! Thanks! I'm wishing you pleasant, mild, sweet smelling walks (because my body issues improve with gentle physical activity and I really enjoyed walking by the river this week).

Venn, Although I treasure our agreement for being rare and precious, I don't really share your feelings of danger about Mrs. NOHOMO.. I think it's normal to be invested in a spouse, and I don't see any overt controlling signs here. Although I agree with the idea of digging deeper before declaring the foundation safe..

@105 Super aggressive there. What is wrong with you? Don't respond if you don't like someone else's opinion. Not sure you need to rip someone a new asshole.

I didn't "make shit up". Like many other people here have said, it's hard to imagine a scenario in which what they're saying is both positive and non-reductive. I merely supposed what he might be considering positive (and who hasn't heard a straight white dude claim to not be racist because he said the Asian kid was good at math or that the black guy was good at sports). As a straight guy who has sat around with other straight guys, I think I have some inside knowledge on this.

You need to take a chill pill and find a hobby. Savaging someone while ignoring the crux of the issue is very Trumpian.

@102

3 - at what point did I say that women were worth less because they earn less? Any rational human being thinks its a travesty that women earn less. My experience in the workplace has taught me that women are better bosses and better workers on average. My point was that because we live in a society where women are valued less in the workplace and are more often homemakers, they are more vulnerable to the dissolution of a marriage. I don't think that's really a matter for debate, the facts speak for themselves.

2 - I never said it was shameful to be a gay man, you love a strawman argument huh? I said that there's more shame associated with being a gay man. That has to do with toxic straight masculinity, not anything inherent to being gay. I can't think this is the first time you've heard this theory, that lesbianism is chic and being a gay male is less so (though that may be changing?) Regardless, my only point was to suppose that if there are/were more barriers to coming out as a gay male than a gay woman, then perhaps straight women feel more fear that they have been misled about orientation. You can like it or not like it but please address the argument.

1 - This is the one I felt least comfortable saying but I think it's more reflective of the biases and prejudices of society that my own personal view (though I'm sure it's both). I still think it's largely true but I don't love how it comes across. Someone much smarter than me could probably find a better way to say the basic point - women have a different (and more difficult) experience with how attractive they feel to wider society than men do and that may play a role in processing a partner's bi/homosexuality.

Overall, I think my original point was to ground this more in the real world. The original posters were discussing a more subconscious glorification of the power of the penis theory that I think it a bit obscure. I think there are more grounded-in-reality fears that drive that biphobia.

Larry, Savaging someone is Trumpian! Lol..

1) "women have a different (and more difficult) experience with how attractive they feel to wider society than men do"
Ok that might make sense to you but it sounds nonsensical to me as a woman. What I've understood is that women can make more money than men can by investing in our appearance, but men can see that too. That has nothing to do with wanting to be monogamous, or how threatened I feel by male competition for my man. The only difference I see between a same sex or heterosexual affair is whether he can get his affair partner pregnant. Some biphobic women believe that bi men are more promiscuous than straight men, but that's false.

2) " I never said it was shameful to be a gay man"
err... your point was:
"There's a lot more shame associated with being gay than being a lesbian"
Which is prejudiced and nonsensical. I've heard plenty of f-words and d-words in my life, but I agree more people will complain about gay men than lesbians. Because lots of people are prejudiced and hypocritical. If you want to try to adapt to their wishes, that's your loss.

3) "we live in a society where women are valued less in the workplace and are more often homemakers, they are more vulnerable to the dissolution of a marriage"
But a bisexual isn't any more likely to leave a marriage than a heterosexual! Wealthy male competition may feel more threatening if you value people based on how much money they make, but one's worth as a person is not tied to how much money they make or what they do.. it would make slightly more sense to tie one's worth as a person to their ethical performance, but really I think everyone has different strengths and weaknesses, has valuable human worth.

"I think there are more grounded-in-reality fears that drive that biphobia."
Me too. I thought I had brought up a lot of them. What I want to argue against, is that bisexuals are more promiscuous or less monogamous, that bisexuals are just hiding the fact they are really gay or straight, that MM is more dangerous to society than FF, and that men are worth more than women. If you are arguing for one of these things, we will fundamentally disagree.

You've thrown a lot of trash in with your arguments. Trash talking is often used to support shoddy arguments.

BDF @123: But there is something unethical about lying. I mean, you do understand the difference between roleplay and lying to your spouse, right?

@131 I'm just not going to engage. You're making this personal which is your prerogative but is not particularly useful when talking about something on a macro level. I just wish you'd stop slamming people, there's no reason. BiDanFan is one of my favorites on here because they always gently correct or ask questions. Its something I strive for (and often fail). Perhaps you could join me?

P.S. No one is arguing that your final points are true. Stop making strawman arguments to fit your personal agenda. What we are discussing is why there is a societal fear (again, not my fear, societal fear) of bisexuality, particularly in the constraints of a revelation during a LTR. In that context, talking about the prejudices of society is appropriate. What is inappropriate is you continually telling me I believe those things. I don't. But society does. You need to learn to listen a bit.

@131 Okay I guess I am going to engage. Sorry BiDanFan! Tomorrow is another day.

1.) " I never said it was shameful to be a gay man"
err... your point was:
"There's a lot more shame associated with being gay than being a lesbian"

Those are very different things. You're indicating that I think it is shameful to be gay. What I actually said is that society (SOCIETY!) shames gay men more than it does lesbian women. I think this is due to toxic straight masculinity which seeks to narrowly define what it is to be a man. I think it's changing in a positive way. That's all I'm saying. I think it's pretty true but am in no way saying "Lesbians have it easy and never face any prejudice." The only person saying that is you. Stop putting words in my mouth.

2.) But a bisexual isn't any more likely to leave a marriage than a heterosexual!

Again, no one is arguing that at all. What I was saying that maybe the SOCIETAL reason that women fear a bisexual male is that they fear that it makes the relationship less likely to work and that fear may be heightened because they are more vulnerable when a relationship is terminated. I understand that bisexual people aren't more likely to leave a marriage. I'm not saying they are. But I don't think most people believe that and if we're going to think about why women seem to be more afraid of bi men than the other way around, that has to be a part of the discussion.

@129 larry
"Don't respond if you don't like someone else's opinion."

It wasn't an opinion, it was a lie (about a fact).

"I merely supposed"

Yet you didn't present it as a supposition, you stated it as a fact. In other words, yes...

"I didn't "make shit up"."

...you /did/ make it up.

And now you have demonstrated that you're too insecure to admit a clear, simple mistake.

It's OK to be wrong, everyone is sometimes. But if someone can't admit a mistake they haven't earned much respect. And it's as pointless to talk to them as to a wall.

"ignoring the crux of the issue"

One is free to focus on any aspect of an issue, or the entire issue.

Your fabricated take on the entire issue interested me much less than the takes of others (which, while interesting, I also didn't feel like talking much about).

If you learn to communicate properly, maybe I'll be more likely to engage with your thoughts.

I don't have a ton of time to engage with people's thoughts, let alone their imaginations. If it makes you feel better I also don't like it when /other/ people confuse people and waste people's time in discussions by making things up.

Ms Phile - I can conjure up a dozen different motivations for W1, ranging from totally okay and probably healthy to nothing wrong to FTWL to perhaps not the healthiest to LMB, and maybe one or two places in between. I wish W1 had written her own letter independent of his, as then we would have a clue. We seem to be alone in thinking or at least expressing that caution is in order when one partner is so heavily invested in the other's partner's experience.

We also are on similar planes about respecting the differences between orientations. I may well think these differences to be rather greater than you do. I think too many people on all sides enter a compatible-but-not-matching-orientation relationship with a viewpoint something along the lines of the differences not mattering until they want them to matter. In the case of your gay friend with the bi partner, I might have asked whether reproduction had anything to do with his fears of being left for a woman.

Mr Savage seems to have over-corrected a little in his current stance that it should make absolutely no difference. It's a source of at least potential incompatibilities likely needing to be taken into account. I'd no more fault anyone for wanting a partnership within a narrow range of orientation matching than I would someone with similar religious requirements.

Whoever LW1and his wife are, they have been together nine years and this is the level of intimacy they are at?
Why haven’t you told your wife this Info, LW1, because to me this is the key here.
Now she’s all excited because she’s got the video rights to your first man on man action, and you think playing the part will solve this dilemma. Wrong. You have hidden a part of yourself from your partner of nearly a decade, and this means that your marriage ain’t as great as you present it to be.

Larry @134. Why do some women fear bi men, as partners..
it’s a scenario a straight woman hasn’t been trained for. We are trained to be competitive with other girls and you know, begrudgingly, indulge males. When sexual competition arises with another woman, we have a life long arsenal of training at our disposal.
And, if a man is heterosexual, that means he’s been trained to be lead by the nose, as he smells pussy.
A bi man, he’s broken the chains of hetero sexuality as the only game in town, and a woman can be left a little bewildered by how to deal.

GAGGED, you know what they say about curiosity and the cat. Not your business what your partner and his ransoms get up to, you gave permission. Though I understand your concern re the violence which you’ve never witnessed yourself.
It’s a part of him, and he keeps re visiting that part via his phone, while in lockdown.
Talk about it more with him, because his answer was very evasive. He didn’t own that he too likes it like that.

Slip there/ Randoms.

@125 Curious - I reckon 2020 is more Scottish play than As You Like It

Life is but a walking shadow
It is a poor player who struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And is heard no more
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury
Signifying nothing

@141 Pan
Aw, I'm not sure exactly what my point was with that quote. Were I to start explaining, I wouldn't've known when to stop.

If everything is acting, then maybe nothing is acting.

Much isn't acting, but sincere.

This reminds me of a spectacular interview Jon Stewart did 2 October 2007 with the human weathervane Chris Matthews. (In whose defense I will say Matthews was an outstanding interviewer in that he insisted that questions be answered.)

Matthews had just released a book "Life is a Campaign". Stewart pointed out that it celebrated phoniness.

Video:
http://www.cc.com/video-clips/dw4m4i/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-chris-matthews

Transcript:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/this-is-the-worst/

/Break/
That Macbeth quote is a wonderful description of the Trump presidency!

@76 LavaGirl, I proudly stand by my post. And I will likely continue to post such things. Inspiring you to blow up in one of your standard babyesque fits is just icing on the cake. My instincts must be dead on if they inadvertently cause you to blow your top.

@142 Curious - Of course, the key to good acting is to believe the role you're playing - if we're all playing the roles we've be assigned by the cosmic director, then we must go full Method, and inhabit them completely with our whole heart.

That was a great interview, even in transcript.

Now I will not be able to think of Melania as anything other than the Lady Macbeth of Ljubljana. And hope that Joe Biden was from his mother's womb untimely plucked.

Ms Hopkins - Ah, yes, I remembered Cathedral Heat at once and Clay Feet after a quick peek at the lyrics. I think I was more familiar with Sunny Border Blue.

@144 Pan
“We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.”

(In the first paragraph of Kurt Vonnegut's 1962 novel Mother Night, he states this is it's "moral".)

Venn, "We also are on similar planes about respecting the differences between orientations. I may well think these differences to be rather greater than you do"
I know I've had some difficulties as a monosexual dating a bisexual. And maybe you have too. I've tried to articulate my difficulties here. If you have, I'm sorry, I don't remember. I would be interested in hearing if they are similar. I think that we may differ in that you prefer the gold star status, while I simply prefer a preponderance of attraction to my gender.. One thing I sort of fear but have never experienced to my knowledge is coupling with someone who was more attracted to men, but particularly attracted to me enough to get serious.. and like hearing that my partner has a strong attraction to blondes but still loves me although I'm a brunette, it may be difficult for my ego. But I think in the most important areas we may generally agree, to live and let live, protect ourselves and others and try to work together well, refuse to let ourselves be stifled by cultural prejudice, etc.

Lava, "He didn’t own that he too likes it like that."
Good observation about GAGGED. Shrugging is a very blase response. When bdsm comes up as a topic, bdsm vs physical abuse is a pretty important aspect to be clear about, so I'm glad that he clarified that far at least. But to say nothing further while this seems to be the first time bdsm came up as a topic.. saying absolutely nothing about how he felt about his experience with bdsm beyond clarifying that it was consensual is remarkable.. I was also struck that GAGGED did not specifically ask for Mr G's feelings on the subject. Perhaps Mr G inferred that GAGGED does not want to know. Unless he wants to try to sub, I don't see why he'd need to bring up the subject again. I think that Dan's response assumed that Mr G was into it.. but he could have also been drawn into it as a way to get head.. If GAGGED wants to know, if he can handle either answer, then he should ask. I think GAGGED should take Dan's advice and really get ready to articulate his own feelings about bdsm nonjudgmentally before pressing for Mr G's feelings further. If he is truly calm and accepting and happy that Mr G is outsourcing oral and kink that he doesn't want, in a good way for their relationship.. or if he's ready to participate in some way.. then they may be able to talk about it well, if he wants more intimacy.

Larry, " I just wish you'd stop slamming people, there's no reason. BiDanFan is one of my favorites on here"
The only thing that I've said about BDF personally is that I like and admire her. I try to treat her with a lot of respect. Maybe she is better at it than I am. But I have no idea where you're coming from anymore.

"talking about the prejudices of society is appropriate"
To condemn them, to talk about the way these prejudices hurt people. Not as a reason to excuse further prejudice.

"You need to learn to listen a bit."
Do you listen to yourself, do you hear how judgmental and demanding this is? I replied to your long post about why 'straight cis women are terrified of their men’s possible homoerotic inclinations'. If you don't believe that bisexuals are all promiscuous, or dishonestly hiding that they are really gay or straight, or that MM is more dangerous than FF, or that men are worth more than women.. if you're done talking about how it's reasonable for me as a woman, and all other straight cis women, to reject a guy for being bisexual because of prejudice, then we don't have any more disagreement. But maybe you're going to continue to mansplain about why we women are so unwilling to date to bisexuals (31%), instead of trying to explain why you men are so unwilling to date bisexuals (38%). Up to you.

@146 Curious - Fantastic. A moral well worth learning.

Good points, Philo, @147.
I don’t agree GAGGED is being prudish here. He’s shocked at what he sees his partner gets up to with other men. He can’t unsee the video now, he’s got to find a way to let it be, move over and make room for this part of his partner.
/ The men in our patriarchal culture who leave women, usually do it when the woman is older and leave her for a younger person. Does it matter if that person is another woman or a man.

Phi @126: "I think that most women would agree with me that it feels better for a male partner to explore with another man than to explore with a woman who may get pregnant and demand a lot of child support and may be able to get most custody too." I would agree with you, but it seems you and I are not "most women." One issue may be something I've encountered as a queer woman, dating a woman who later decided she was straight, and that rejection can feel like a rejection of not just you but of your entire gender. The instinct may be, I'm so awful I drove him away from not just me but womanhood/heterosexuality itself. Which is of course not true but feelings are rarely logical.

Phi, didn't the data you shared state that only 7.8% of men would reject a woman who was bisexual but tending toward straight? I didn't see it addressing the issue of bisexuals who would tend toward the same sex. Also I think Larry made a good point about the percentage who would decline to date someone who is openly bi versus who would dump someone who came out as bi during the course of the relationship, a number which is indeed much smaller because logically you're invested in that person.

Phi @127, I think your questions two and three are the same question. His telling her would amount to correcting her assumption. I would split your question four into two different questions: should he tell her before the threesome and should he tell her after. The argument in favour of not telling her before the threesome is to preserve her excitement over this same-sex-virgin fantasy. There is a less strong argument for not telling her after the threesome. Sure, she would still be disappointed to learn that first time wasn't a first time, but the disappointment would not retrospectively ruin her fun. So the argument in favour of telling would be that full honesty is good yada yada and won't have a down side. The argument against is that there would still be some disappointment, and what new information would telling convey? That despite being straight, he is open to experimenting, which she already knows by having seen it with her own two eyes. I don't feel strongly enough about either option to heartily endorse it. If it seems to come up in conversation and/or he thinks she won't be upset, he can tell, but I don't think it would change anything to do so.

I don't see him blaming her for feeling "ashamed," I don't see Dan advising him to blame her for not feeling safe enough to have disclosed. But we are back to the topic I said I wouldn't discuss further. :) But to answer your direct questions, which I already have done but as a direct reply: I think it was reasonable for him to have not brought it up earlier because it was not relevant to his identity as a straight man, and there was a statistical likelihood that it would just create issues in their relationship that don't belong there because he is a straight man; I think it is reasonable for him to not tell her now because he wants her to enjoy this first-time fantasy. And yes, I acknowledge your preference, and may well share it myself, that he not tell her afterwards either because it could still disappoint her and would not give her any new and necessary information about him.

I agree that she needs to respect his straightness as it translates to his boundaries around what he's willing to do with this other guy. Good point.

Phi @131: "1) "women have a different (and more difficult) experience with how attractive they feel to wider society than men do"
Ok that might make sense to you but it sounds nonsensical to me as a woman."
It makes complete sense to me as a woman. Women are primarily judged on their appearance. Men are also judged on appearance but it would rank perhaps fourth or fifth on the list of things they are judged on, above which would be their incomes/careers, their perceived masculinity ie could they win a fight, their perceived heterosexuality (men who are indeed a little bit queer are judged more harshly than women who are), I'm sure the men can chime in here.

Traffic @132, I think we can all acknowledge that there are situations where lying is more ethical than telling the truth. Lying by omission is also acknowledged to be more ethical, or at least less unethical, than lying actively. I think the "tell the truth" brigade's only argument is telling the truth for the sake of the truth, they haven't really thought about the consequences (which are causing this wife unnecessary disappointment), while the "keep it to himself" faction are more concerned about the effect of disclosing something which many see as inconsequential.

Larry @133, thank you! No subsequent apology necessary, I'm more than guilty of continuing conversations that are probably best dropped with people whose backs are up and are unlikely to listen to me anyway... :)

Phi @147, I think Larry was addressing Curious there, not yourself.

@117. venn. Why do you think being treated roughly and being subjected to mock-homophobic slurs ('you love it, you filthy little cocksucker') 'anti-gay'? I like it, especially from someone with whom I have no close relationship. (I understand you don't see me as gay, so this might be evidence for you on the wrong side of the ledger). It's surely a pretty central gay experience of sex.

@123. Bi. You know how some people say sex is 'for the gods'? Well, that would to me smack of overlooking the politics of sex; but my experience of sex (especially good sex) is that it's completely out of the run of my usual life or activity. Like, usually I'm inept, and at sex I'm capable; or usually I get hardly anything I want, and in sex I get more than I could have ever dreamt of. I may have this fantasy sense of sex because it was a comparatively long time before I did a lot of what I hankered after.

@131. Philophile. Oh, I think women worry more often about 'does my bum look big in this?' than men do about 'do my sideboards look absurd?'. There's something to me in what larrystone is saying.

Causing the wife unnecessary disappointment, Fan @150? She’s not a five year old. And how can you say this man having homoerotic experiences, that he hasn’t disclosed to his wife, are inconsequential? If these are the basis of the dont tell brigade’s argument, then their reasonings are very flimsy.
Culturally, a male getting with other males is not inconsequential, as we see by the violence gay/ bi men are subjected to.

Encouraging men to treat women like fairy floss, from Dan on. And what about the third? Ok for this childishness to be played out on him.. can’t disappoint the little woman... Best employ a sex worker then, LW1, and clue him in before hand that you’re pretending you’ve never had a dick in your mouth before.

What about after, when she asks him how he enjoyed his first time being with a man, he’ll be using his words then, to lie. No more lying by omission. Makes the whole experience a sham. Intimacy is messy, and maybe all sorts of emotions will come up for her if he tells her now. It’ll be real though, and it will take them into a deeper and more authentic intimacy. If this marriage is as solid as LW1 says it is.

Re: NOHOMO's nondisclosure:
When Mrs. NOHOMO suggested he have a 'first time', it would have been cool had he disclosed it wouldn't be. (My hunch is that she'd've still wanted to, but maybe not.)

Prior to The Suggestion, I hope it's obvious to everyone that there's absolutely no reason in the world he should have disclosed. Presumably (given The Suggestion) she had never asked. And his relevant experience in absolutely no way called for unrequested disclosure; to suggest that it does suggests that it's somehow tainted (which it isn't; and if someone thinks it is and wants sexual history disclosed, they can ask).

After The Suggestion, continuing to not disclose is just an optional white lie. (All of this is so obvious to me that the only thing I was moved to say about the letter was to give the guy a little advice about doing a good job with the white lie.) He doesn't need to tell her the white lie (he could disclose). But he is free to tell her the white lie (now quoting me @54) "to give Mrs. NOHOMO the gift of the illusion of her fantasy."

A feeling that /everything/ must be disclosed strikes me as looney. Should he also tell her about the grilled cheese sandwich he ate at 2:03 pm on March 4, 2002? In other words, there are infinite unnecessary things to disclose, and so disclosing them all would be impractical.

A feeling that /this/ needs to be disclosed charactarizes 'this' as something tainted, which it is not. (Was it his responsibility to disclose that he slept with a girl with red hair, too?)

In other words, insisting NOHOMO disclose either reveals an obsessive desire to know everything, or homophobia.

For those people who think all LGBT people experience the same level of discrimination and acceptance:

Anti-sodomy laws (ostensibly targeting gay men but not lesbian women) in the USA were prevalent in until recently - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States

Bi women far more accepted than bi men, and again far more accepted than transgender individuals - https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/06/13/chapter-2-social-acceptance/

Pay discrimination by orientation - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_wage_gap

Limited study showing women are more likely to find bisexual men unattractive vs men finding bisexual women unattractive- https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15299716.2018.1563935?src=recsys&journalCode=wjbi20

Similar study to the above - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/10936227_Heterosexuals'AttitudesToward_Bisexual_Men_and_Women_in_the_United_States

Double discrimination against bi individuals - https://lawreview.richmond.edu/2018/01/28/the-invisible-minority-discrimination-against-bisexuals-in-the-workplace/

Good page refuting the common perceptions of bi individuals by society - https://www.insider.com/myths-about-being-bisexual-2018-8

Harriet & BDF, As I said, I understand that women can make more money than men by investing in our appearance... I personally don't think this has any bearing on how I view monogamy or queer people, or draw any further meaning other than maybe wealthy guys pay to see attractive women... My main point was that I don't see what this has to do with why women reject bi guys?

BDF, "I think that most women would agree with me that it feels better for a male partner to explore with another man than to explore with a woman who may get pregnant and demand a lot of child support and may be able to get most custody too." I would agree with you, but it seems you and I are not "most women.""
There are no statistics on whether most women would find it easier to get over an SS affair or an OS affair. I'd be very interested to see them, because I do think that most women would prefer a SS affair rather than an OS affair.. No one wants to lose a lot of resources to support their partner's kid with someone else, it's a huge financial strain as well as a broken promise.. unless they are willing to adopt the child themselves. When there's no statistics, we can just guess about what "most people" would do, or share our personal feelings.. the latter is far more useful information because it is correct, not a guess.

I'm not sure what statistics you are referencing 7.8%.. As for my references... in the third paragraph of my first reference, "Women (28%) also tend to be less comfortable than men (38%) with the idea of a bisexual partner." That reference grouped biphobia more by age and orientation than by gender and that sentence was vague about the measurement. @147 I was actually thinking of this reference I did not share from an Adam&Eve survey: "Within the study, 39 percent of men said they were open to dating a bisexual person, while 31 percent of women said they were; 15 percent of men versus 23 percent of women were unsure."
https://www.bustle.com/articles/182670-why-wont-some-people-date-bisexuals-a-new-study-confirms-that-biphobia-is-still-alive

"Phi @147, I think Larry was addressing Curious there, not yourself."
133 and 134 were Larry's arguments with me@131, which I addressed in 147. Maybe he said the same judgmental demanding phrase to Curious too, though, and I missed it.

Since you are thanking Larry @133 for attacking me to protect you, I assume you felt that something I wrote to you was an attack? Could you let me know what it was? I've tried to treat you with respect so I'm pretty confused.

HillyHolly, I love statistics, thanks!
But the second study that you said showed "women are more likely to find bisexual men unattractive vs men finding bisexual women unattractive" does not appear to have any results like that in the abstract you linked! Only:
"Ratings were lower (less favorable) for bisexual men and bisexual women than for all other groups assessed--including religious, racial, ethnic, and political groups--except injecting drug users."
"White heterosexual women expressed significantly more favorable attitudes than other women and all men. A gender difference was observed in attitudes toward bisexuals and homosexuals: Heterosexual women rated bisexuals significantly less favorably than they rated homosexuals, regardless of gender, whereas heterosexual men rated male targets less favorably than female targets, regardless of whether the target was bisexual or homosexual." That seems to indicate that straight men are more motivated by their penises and more likely to throw other men under the bus as a result, so although they may be nicer to bi women, they are less queer friendly in general.. which explains why a minority said they were willing to date bi women in the Adam&Eve study, even though so many men talk about wanting threesomes or a harem which is not as attractive to straight women.

Also, while you're second reference did say "One-third of all LGBT adults say there is a lot of social acceptance for bisexual women; only 8% say the same about bisexual men," this statistic reflects the LGBT perception of discrimination of bi guys, no straight women (or men) were studied here. It also seems to disagree with the results from surveys that ask a more random sample of people whether they are personally attracted or averse to bisexuals.

Lava and I seem to be the only two straight women weighing in about how we feel about dating bisexuals or men with an experimental history. And it seems like we're being told that our opinions are weird, that we don't understand that straight women are really prejudiced.. because we don't count, I guess. Why listen to how actual straight women feel while you're talking about why straight women do what we do?

M?? Harriet - Rough treatment depends on who's Humpty Dumpty and gets to define it. I don't call L4 rough treatment, but abuse. Mock abuse and mock anti-gay slurs are still abuse and anti-gay slurs. The two have some points of common convergence, but are not inextricably linked.

As there are some gays who think similarly to you (though I still suspect the number is distorted), I will make no point about your particular status (but would consider it a kindness if, should you have such encounters in future, you at least would refrain from calling yourself gay and thereby purposely spreading the idea that gays in general enjoy being abused - if he were just to draw such a conclusion on his own, it couldn't be helped, but at least you would not deliberately have spread a damaging perception), though it seems prudent to state that I am not conceding anything about what a hypothetical jury might have to say. If the only way someone gay can find to reconcile himself to his lot is to eroticize receive anti-gay abuse, well, so be it, but it's not ideal. It feeds the Mediterranean viewpoint that the top is still a man, among other things, and comparisons to similar fantasies among women overlook that there is much more nostalgia both among ourselves and among society in general for the time of being outlaws. It reminds me of how Simon in A Fairly Honourable Defeat enjoyed the secret society aspect of his life before entering (closeted) domestic bliss. Think of the sort of anti-assimilationist who positively enjoyed the inability to marry and thought it fun to have to be closeted at work and in general life.

[It's surely a pretty central gay experience of sex.] Rough treatment, I could say okay - anti-gay abuse would be something else. Do you think the rising generation of boys who were able to come out in middle school to general support seriously want to be called anti-gay slurs by their partners? Are you actually wishing it on them? You seem to be about a step away from endorsing anti-gay bullying as good for gays when we're boys, but I shall pay you the compliment of presuming you don't seriously go that far. Surely a future where my successors have no societally-driven reasons to eroticize abuse is what we all profess to want, at least when among polite society.

And I have not even started on H4 and his apparent liking for inflicting abuse on others. That is considerably higher in magnitude and could lead in several directions that LW4 might not want to investigate.

Re NOHOMO, Is his past experience so important that he's justified in hiding it from his partner, and he should keep his lips sealed for life? Or is his past experience so unimportant that it's weird but no big deal that he lied about it and he should just spit it out and be done with it? People seem to believe both at once. IMO: If he trusts his wife, I think he should be honest with her asap. If he is unable to tell her the truth in a way that stresses that he felt bad about lying and wants to be honest with her, he should keep the secret forever. If he feels that she might hold it against him, well, that's sad that they can't trust each other, but I've seen sadder marriages last a very long time.

@158 the difference between acceptance of bi men vs bi women is a little further down under the paragraph:

“ Similarly there is a gap in views about social acceptance of bisexual women and men. One-third of all LGBT adults say there is a lot of social acceptance for bisexual women; only 8% say the same about bisexual men.”

That survey obviously doesn’t address root causes, it only reports the information, but this paragraph is indicative of slightly more negative experiences by bisexual individuals when dating or in social situations:

“While roughly half of gay men and lesbians have come out on a social network, only about one-third (34%) of bisexuals say they have done this.“

@157 Hillyholly
Thank you very much for making the effort (which I admit I couldn't be bothered to make) to prove facts long well-known here to those in denial.

@158. Philophile. Some women take male sexual attention as confirmation not just of the worth of their (straight) sexuality, but also of their frequently not-valued (or not-so-valued) gender. When a guy attached to them takes a sexual interest in other men, it's understood, at least in part, as involving a diminishment of their gender. This would be the thinking--the explanation for straight women's relatively greater biphobia than straight guys' (in their partners). I'm not saying the thinking is fleshed-out or particularly closely articulated.

@166. venn. 'Abuse' depends on who gets to define it, you say.... The people having sex here are the correspondent's husband and his trick (I feel old writing the word), and it would seem neither of those view the oral-with-commentary they were having as in the least abusive. My recollection is that, as a young man, I found mock-homophobic slurs and sexual incitement and encouragement to be liberating, to be validating of my pent-up desires--e.g. of the 'you love it, don't you, [slur]' kind. Sure, I loved being used. It's not something I like so much now--it would seem a bit absurd coming from anyone who knows me, or who I know, for example, will be asking me for help with their tax return in the next few hours. So I think, maybe, that kind of sex is more a young man's game than the recreation of someone older.

@147 Again, listen. Go back and read what was said again and don't suppose what I was trying to say. Think of other things I could have meant and try not to personalize it. You did it again - I never said you hated BiDanFan, I said we should all be more like BiDanFan, myself included.

"talking about the prejudices of society is appropriate"
To condemn them, to talk about the way these prejudices hurt people. Not as a reason to excuse further prejudice.

I have not excused further prejudice. You're putting words in my mouth. However, I have attempted to understand it. Children draw immediate conclusions about right and wrong and label things good and evil. Being an adult is knowing that everything is nuanced and we need to take the time to understand where people we disagree with come from. That doesn't mean that we agree with them or are okay with their ideas but we know that we can't change their minds unless we understand where they are coming from.

As an example, how did people become less homophobic over the last 25 years? They actually got to know people who were different than them. They realized that LGBT were not something to fear. Are we likely to make racism better by screaming "Racist!" at people and condemning them? Or would we d better if we sat down and figured out how people came to have comfort with a racist system? I know my answer. Same thing applies to this. It's okay to try to figure out where fear of bi people comes from without interjecting a condemnation every two seconds. When you're a little kid and you're afraid of a monster in the dark, it's a night light that gets you to sleep, not your parents telling you you're stupid and there is no monster. Be the night light.

You're so busy condemning behavior and looking for enemies to smite that you miss out on moments to connect.

@135 Sure seems like you have the time! :-)

We're going to have to agree to disagree. Perhaps I should have taken time to clearly delineate that this was an imagined conversation and not a quote from the letter (though I still think it was pretty obvious that it wasn't a quote). And perhaps you should not call things lies and react so harshly? Not sure you advanced the plot in any productive way.

I (biasedly) think there was something worthwhile in that conversation even if you somehow thought I was quoting the letter. I also think that as a straight guy who spends time around straight guys, I (for once!) have a perspective that might be useful on this occasion. Could be wrong on that. I just haven't really seen an occasion in which straight guys calling things gay aren't being prejudiced or contributing to a simplistic, reductive concept of those who are different than themselves.

Thoughts on the "we're so black!" aspect of my original comment? That's the one I thought was rather interesting, not my imagined compliments. :-P

Harriet, "Some women take male sexual attention as confirmation not just of the worth of their (straight) sexuality, but also of their frequently not-valued (or not-so-valued) gender."
Who told you that? I don't think I'm less valuable if I'm less attractive to men, I got really scarred up and dealt with that damaging idea over a decade ago. I'd tell that woman you are describing that she is just as valuable as a person no matter how popular she is with most men! That fame and money can be nice but what really matters is how ethical you are, how much of a good person you are, that your life and dreams and individuality are so precious, pursue your own dreams with bravery and zest rather than let others restrict your choices.

Larry, "You're so busy condemning behavior and looking for enemies to smite that you miss out on moments to connect."
I don't really want to connect with you, I want you to stop mansplaining about why straight women do what we do. If you'd like to start listening to our reasoning instead, then I might see a way I'd like to connect with you.

@166 larry
As I wrote @107 I've all along been "extremely skeptical" that GP used the word (now quoting him) "in a positive way". But he said he did, and Dan essentially told him it would /only/ be OK if he started having gay sex. So I didn't feel a need to state I agreed with Dan, both because I'm not gay so my adding my agreement is of little value, and because we have no data on which to disprove my opinion that is is very unlikely it was truly said in a positive way.

The only data we have is that he told us it was positive, and it's possible it was. (Though in case GP looks at these Comments, I am glad venn prompted me to state that I'm not inclined to believe GP's statement that it was positive.) So...

"Thoughts on the "we're so black!" aspect of my original comment?"

No, I'm not gonna think about or comment on your argument that I had already mostly agreed with, because...

"Sure seems like you have the time! :-)"

I try to be very discerning about what I use my time on (even if I am now trapped in my apartment forever), so I try to avoid speculation.

"Perhaps I should have taken time to clearly delineate that this was an imagined conversation and not a quote from the letter"

Some people here forget the letter by the time the comments reach the second page. Other people here make stuff up because they're Cuckoo-for-Cocoa-Puffs, so when I see it happen it kinda pushes my button.

Curious @54: So many people ask Dan for permission to do what they want that it's become my default assumption.

OK, so I hear venn asking me again how it could be positive. So here's one possible (but as I keep saying extremely unlikely) scenario:

Hypothetically, GP and every one his his male friends very /very/ much want to have sex with each other. But they're too afraid so say so; they think they might be the only one. So they all do this 'flirting and joking' "about performing sex acts on each other", each thinking that will somehow passively result in what they're too afraid to actively initiate.

GP told us he's not straight (I assume that, and not autism, is what he meant by "I consider myself on the "spectrum" and might be open to gay sex").

I'm not at all saying this isn't extremely unlikely, it's just that I don't see a need to speculate despite not liking to speculate, given that Dan solved it diplomatically by letting GP know it's wrong until they have sex with each other.

@156, curious, what? Intimates disclose past sexual history, and yeah, as a woman, I like to know if a straight man I’d be having any intimate relations with, has had homosexual experiences. Nothing to do with any ‘taint’, around homosexuality. Rather knowing that, loosens things. For one you know he’s never suddenly going to go off on some anti homosexual rave. Its obvious, that many men hold an unhealthy fear of any homosexual impulses, and can get very vehement about its existence, and derogatory about who practices it.
Gay women, never have I heard a straight woman put them down.
Guess we have very different notions of intimacy, curious, and what to share in them. Not my business to know specifics and past what my exhusband shared willingly about his homosexual experiences, I didn’t ask for details.
LW1 and his wife have been together nine years, you’d think it would have been mentioned by now. Did she ask him early on? Who knows.
I get the feeling American girls are treated way different to Australian girls.

Congratulations fubar, @169. A double whammy.

And you’re defending the tool who can’t let adolescence go, curious, @170. Having a day of it.

I’m not blowing my top over little trolls like you, dropout@ wherever.
Dramatic exclamations only.
You flatter yourself.
/LW1 wrote to Dan, that’s how torn he is by this situation. Personally, it’s not a cross I’m that fussed about. Keep the lie up / tell her the truth.
People are dying with the pandemic, who knows when this fantasy will reach fruition.

M?? Harriet - No, I said that rough treatment depends on Humpty Dumpty and that mock abuse is still abuse. My Humpty counts as rough treatment, say, a preference for being done hard instead of gently. Your Dumpty might include in the RT category some things rather more problematic, or perhaps not. Maybe we could establish some sort of system based on how okay things are to pull completely out of left field, though I doubt we'd agree. Negotiated mock abuse is something else.

You overlook or decline to state that gays who shared your experiences and responses found being used, abused or both liberating because they required liberation. Although it appears to be drawing to a close, we do have a narrow window of a crop of young gays who were able to come out in middle school in a supportive environment and who never went through all the shaming that has caused some gays to eroticize mock, or sadly, sometimes even real abuse (and we've no idea which is the case in L4). It reminds of criticisms of that film Love, Simon taking the line that there was no need to view his life as a big, shameful secret.

As one of the largest operations practising conversion therapy has just announced that it is disbanding, I shall leave off other lines of inquiry, not wanting to spoil such good news.

Mr Curious - I take your point, but that's not "positive" in my book. It's a bit like a game of chicken, really. But I am not attributing to you any sort of ill intent.

@176 venn
"I take your point, but that's not "positive" in my book. It's a bit like a game of chicken, really."

Oh yes, LOL, it would be negative in a social and psychological sense, certainly!

I was just trying to craft an example of a very unlikely scenario in which GP and friends could actually be intending to use the term in a way that was "positive" in the sense that it wasn't burdened with "negative" subtexts.

And I did so not not because I'm not pretty sure he's in the wrong, but to explain why I'm not sure enough to want to tear him a new one for doing what he claims he isn't. OK I am sure enough to do so /in case/ we're right as we almost certainly are, I just hate to spend time speculating, and I was just kinda bored since I didn't really find the question intellectually engaging. But at this point I may as well get off my lazy ass:

GP, while it's not impossible you told us the truth, it's so extremely unlikely that, in addition to repeating that I agree with Dan that what you all are doing is wrong until you start having sex with each other, I just want to take another second of my time to also say that regardless of your assurance that you all used the word in a positive way, you'd need to answer many questions before you could possibly convince me that you aren't doing something very shitty.

There, now I'm feeling like myself again.

@175. venn. I can't see that negotiated mock-abuse sanctions or colludes in the environment in which a slur e.g. 'faggot' or, in a straight context e.g. 'bitch', is corrosive. The /mock/ abuse is a revaluation of the values of the prevalent environment.

Trump getting conned at his rally.. thinking zillions would turn up and he got six thousand. All these fake people registered for seats. Beautifully done.
A moment to savour.

Congrats Venn! Now to drag the other prejudiced cults out before the firing squad! I mean, to cut off their support, attack their prejudiced ideas, enfold the poor souls they preyed on, and treat them as the dangerous baggage of society that they are.. Since we both think that less conversion therapy is a reason to celebrate, does that mean we are SJWs? I'm not sure about this term, I've heard it used as an insult but I don't understand why.

Harriet, It's so hard to understand where you're coming from, since you have expressed some transgender identification, and sleep with both men and women. Iirc you prefer to identify as a gay man? But when you (rarely) have sex with women you consider the sex to be queer because you are approaching it like a woman, and choose queer partners? And sometimes when you are having sex with a man you feel like a woman, like it is sort of queerly heterosexual sex? This behavior seems to be either bisexual or pansexual since you don't just partner with one gender.. your behavior is so atypical of any standard orientation it might be most clear to simply describe it as queer... why do you identify with the gay orientation best?

Lava also mentioned the greater confusion of bisexuality, it's just hard to know what is polite, and it's hard to understand motivations that you don't share.. Bisexuality seems to cover several numbers of the Kinsey scale, while het or gay specify one's orientation a bit more. With vagueness (and newness) comes confusion. Lots of people like their lives and partners to be more clear cut and easily understandable. Bisexuals could help the situation by agreeing on polite words for 'mostly straight', 'mostly gay', and 'equally attracted to men and women'. And straight people generally don't take much interest in queer issues unless they become personal, unfortunately.. gay people may be afraid that a bisexual partner can choose to live as a straight person and abandon queer issues and their same sex partner? (sorry if I'm misrepresenting Venn's issues)... So there are real differences in cross-orientation relationships, the rules of politeness, the polite assumptions that work with hets don't work with bisexuals, and their discrimination issues are not the same as gay issues, either.. this creates real difficulties when communication isn't great. I want bisexuals to feel that their issues are just as important as gay or straight issues, their straight partner will respect their queer issues, their gay partner will respect that bisexual discrimination is just as important.

As for whether most gay men are into mock verbal abuse, I tried to dig up some statistics..
It seems like dirty talking is high on the list (#3) for most gay men..
https://www.gaystarnews.com/article/gay-men-reveal-the-fetishes-they-dont-want-others-to-know-about/
Although I'm not clear that this is specifically reclaiming derogatory words, or if it is the sort of dirty talking that I am used to, using words like fuck and cock instead of making love and penis.. It did seem remarkable that mock humiliating dirty talking was listed last of the weird kink that gay men should try, after flatulence, vomit, diapers, guns, licking eyeballs etc.. although it is recommended as positively as the rest..
https://www.advocate.com/sexy-beast/2017/5/11/24-obscure-kinks-and-fetishes-gay-men#media-gallery-media-1

Fubar, I have been sort of wary of you because you like submissive women.. but you seem so positive and polite. Thanks for helping me to examine my fears more.

M?? Harriet - Doesn't have to, but can and often does. And we don't know L4's is mock abuse. We can presume it was consensually negotiated, but it sounds like one of things LW4 isn't sure he really wants to ask.

I shall ignore your attempt to bring women into this - the parameters are too different.

There will always be a portion of my team given to this sort of experience. My goal, and I hope one that is shared by most of the team, is to remove the necessity of that experience's being something cathartic or liberating and reducing it to the level of cosplaying one of Miss Austen's novels. If this were just historical role play, I could give it FTWL. But nobody should experience such shame as to make him find liberation in being called slurs.

Additionally, you haven't looked at this from the other side. If being used validates the used party's MM desires, and I see how someone can get into that frame of mind, how does that liberate the user? There's a difference between seducing one's schoolyard bully and becoming him. How do young tops find liberation and validation before they fall down the trade rabbit hole? The whole conversation just seems so replete with nostalgia for the bad old days.

Given the dearth of new SLOG posts, perhaps 181 should be included in the numbers game (as in: one-ate-one). In which case, congratulations to vennominon. Savour the glory and enjoy the boon!

Phi @180: Thanks! To be clear, I enjoy submissive women in a sexual context. Outside of the bedroom (or wherever), I prefer my partners to be fully actualized human beings. Power exchange is a dynamic based on communication and consent. As a manager in my professional life, I see my role as "servant leadership". I approach my role as Dom in much the same way, as do most of my Dom and Domme friends.

Phi @180: P.S. I enjoy reading your comments. They're well thought out and interesting.

Ms Phile - I am old enough to recall when it was common for bi men to Flintstone their twenties (having a gay old time, for those who recall the theme song) and then, on hitting the big 3-0, decide to become adults with families and serious careers, both of which required marriage to women. One of those is capable of equalization to a much greater degree.

In my experience, "dirty talk" is much more a matter of words one wouldn't use in polite society. That would be the sort of thing one might drop into a boink with the reasonable expectation that it would not kill the mood. Dropping a slur-bomb without prior negotiation might be right up M?? Harriet's former alley, but in my case it would abruptly end the proceedings, and probably be enough to prevent them from re-starting.

Maybe I should talk about the most important thing I found when I researched biphobia.. Current biphobia seems to take the form of:
Lies:
-Redefining bisexuality: spreading the idea that bisexuals must sleep with both genders or the idea that bisexuals are less monogamous. Bisexuality is being sexually attracted to men and women, no additional qualifications necessary.
-Bisexual erasure: spreading the idea that bisexuals are hiding the fact that they are gay or straight
Discrimination:
Aversion to bisexuals in providing salary and in hiring practices.. by making heteronormative comments in the workplace and during interviews, and rewarding agreement? That seems similar to gay discrimination issues.. Generally overlooking bisexual issues in social circumstances and friendships and family and in dating is also common discrimination.

Hillyholly had some great references, I really liked the workplace discrimination article:
"Bi discrimination and erasure have a significant impact on the bi community. Recent data shows that bisexual men and women face more mental and physical health problems than gay men or lesbians: bisexuals have a higher rate of suicide ideation and bisexual women are more likely to “experience frequent mental distress” and have “poorer general health” than lesbians."
"A recent study by Ann Tweedy and Karen Yescavage found that bisexuals face significant levels of discrimination in the workplace.[40] Their study revealed that 51.7% of bisexual respondents reported experiencing employment discrimination, and the number was even higher for bisexual respondents of color, at 68.8%.[41] Their study revealed that 12.8% of bisexual respondents felt they had not been hired for a position because of their sexual orientation, and 7.7% of respondents reported being terminated because of their sexual orientation.[42] Other reported forms of discrimination included verbal sexual harassment (experienced by 30.8% of bisexuals) and unfair access to fringe benefits (experienced by 27.4% of bisexuals)"
"One of the most prominent cases involving bisexual plaintiffs is Apilado v. North American Gay Amateur Athletic Alliance, in which a gay softball league discriminated against bisexual plaintiffs."
"the Seventh Circuit denied the claim of Ray Fuller, a bisexual asylum seeker who claimed he was persecuted for his sexual orientation in his home country of Jamaica."
"Bisexuals challenge the monosexual paradigm on which our society insists. In this way, the LGBTQ+ community has left bisexuals behind in their legal strategy."

Interesting and sad, Philo. I’d love to be bisexual in orientation, it means not being constrained by either the heterosexual or homosexual ‘rules of play.’

@187 these two studies might interest you -

Brain activity in response to erotic stimuli by orientation in women
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-18372-0

Brain activity in response to erotic stimuli by orientation in men
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep41314

@128 Philophile: Thank you so much. It has been a rainy weekend, and I have been cat sitting indoors for a neighbor friend. But as soon as the sunshine returns--and soon--Griz will be back to walking outside, communing with nature, and especially taking drives in her beloved Love Beetle. Big hugs, positrons, and VW beeps! :)
@169 fubar: WA-HOOO!!!! Major congratulations on scoring this week's Double Whammy Award (@69 Lucky @69 + @100 Big Hunsky = Double Whammy)! Savor the delectable good fortune and bask in the glory. :)

Anyone interested in scoring this week's Double Hunsky Award? Tick...tick...tick...

Venn, um.. what equalization? Did your friends turn their back on queer issues after they got married to women? I'm glad that heterosexuality and marriage aren't necessary at all for a good career or children, currently. I also thought that the common sort of dirty talking would be more of a narrative of what would happen or what could happen, using nondiscriminatory profanity.. I'd also guess the common draw was unusual explicitness rather than reclamation of derogatory words, maybe just because I've luckily never had someone start doing that in bed out of the blue, or even politely ask beforehand to call me names or slap me around in bed. I get the feeling that Fubar would not just bust out bdsm out of the blue.

Fubar, I would like to think of you as my example of a good patient caring dom. And congrats scoring one 69.

Griz, Thank you, I hope you get a sunny day for walking and driving and beeping soon! I'm much farther south, and wishing for more of your rain and cool days!

Lava, I don't think bisexuals have an absence of rules.. I think they have different rules.. they are attracted to both genders in some way.. you have to ask about how they want to be treated, and what they feel about both genders, you can't assume anything. It's maybe good experience because people are all generally quite different from the norm in some ways, and that's good because our norms aren't always healthy for our society imo. Assumptions may make life easier and that's why we use them.. but critical thinking is sort of important, too.

"Bisexuality is nothing new, documented in artwork as far back as Ancient Greece and seen just about everywhere in the animal kingdom. So why is it so hard for a man to openly declare he is bisexual in 2018?
What this really comes down to is society not understanding men well enough, in particular how their sexuality works. Recently researchers at Cornell University concluded that men are never 100pc straight. By measuring eye dilation when exposed to both male and female solo pornography, they came to the conclusions that "straight people do not exist.""
"We don't understand bisexuality because even though we see it every day, it looks gay or straight. As a result, when bisexuals do find a partner and settle down, they become labelled with the sexuality of that partnership. From the outside, people perceive them to be gay or straight. Their bisexuality looks like a phase.
Unfortunately, that means younger bisexuals coming to understand their sexuality have few role models to observe."
"For some bisexual men, then, coming out seems like too much hassle – they'll probably end up in a heteronormative relationship. However, there are mental health consequences here. Around one-third of bisexuals report high levels of anxiety, they are 40 percent more likely to describe themselves as unhappy, and feel less worthwhile than straight, gay and lesbian people according to the Office for National Statistics."
"an Australian study by the School of Health and Social Development, found that ”women in relationships with bisexual men say their partners are better lovers and fathers than straight men." Researchers concluded that this was because bisexual men were more open to designing a relationship that works for women, rather than a straight man who would come in with certain assumptions of what that relationship should be.
Being bisexual is normal. Men may be used to having to appear a particular way to be perceived as strong but their sexuality is no more negotiable than their skin colour. Whether you see them or not, bisexual men are everywhere."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/straight-people-dont-exist-do-half-bisexual-men-fear-coming/

Harriet @151, I would not consider "cocksucker" a homophobic slur. It just refers to what the person, who could be any gender, is doing at the time. I would also draw a distinction between dirty talk like "you love that, you cocksucker" and spitting in someone's face, which strikes me as much kinkier. I'm obviously not a gay man but I'd be very surprised if this were "central" to the M-on-M experience.
Still, your post confirms Mr GAGGED's explanation that a lot of guys are into this, which I never doubted.

Curious @156: "A feeling that /this/ needs to be disclosed charactarizes 'this' as something tainted, which it is not. (Was it his responsibility to disclose that he slept with a girl with red hair, too?)" Exactly. People who see this as something he is obligated to "confess" see it as something shameful, which NOHOMO clearly does not, and neither does his wife, so what's with the pearl clutching?
I like it when you and I are on the same page.

Phi @158: "I understand that women can make more money than men by investing in our appearance" -- I caught that but didn't understand it. We are talking about normal women going about their daily lives and why they might feel insecure, not the prospect of modelling as a career, so I'm not sure why you've thrown this into the discussion?
"My main point was that I don't see what this has to do with why women reject bi guys?" That makes two of us.
"No one wants to lose a lot of resources to support their partner's kid with someone else" -- Only a tiny percentage of heterosexual relationships result in children. I don't think "he'll go have kids with her and then there'll be child support" is forefront in the mind of the woman who is faced with the real or imagined prospect of their partner cheating. It's, am I not good enough/attractive enough/young enough/good enough in bed. Again, you and I are on the same page of seeing cheating with a man as less threatening than with a woman, my reasoning is because there is less direct competition between a man and a woman -- the answer to "what's he got that I haven't got" is both obvious and immutable, whereas if the other woman has bigger boobs or blonder hair one might feel compelled to alter oneself to compete along these lines. If there are women who do feel more threatened by a man, I hope they will add their thoughts.

As for Larry, yes you're correct that @131 was you. There was a very heated exchange between him and Curious as well. I was thanking Larry for these kind words: "BiDanFan is one of my favorites on here because they always gently correct or ask questions." Would you not be happy to read that about yourself regardless of the context? Particularly since I have so many others taking issue with me on a weekly basis, it was a nice change. As for the substance of his attack on you, rarely has inserting myself into an argument between two other commenters benefited me, so I will only do it when I think one is flagrantly wrong or being unfair. I think you are capable of fighting your own corner on this one.

Venn @160, nothing is abuse if it is consensual. We have no reason to believe the man in the video did not consent to, or if we are to believe Mr GAGGED, request this treatment. We have no reason to believe Mr GAGGED would inflict it on someone unwilling, and in fact we have evidence to the contrary because GAGGED never asked for it and Mr GAGGED never provided it. Some people have kinks that others find abhorrent, that's what makes them kinks, film at 11.

BDF @192: It's not pearl-clutching. It's just that most people don't think it's good practice to deceive your spouse. You apparently aren't one of those people - but you're just going to have to accept that you're an outlier and that most people prefer a more honest relationship.

BDF, This week's column has made me think about your perspective much more. Even though the topic came up as the bi erasure in GP's letter, and why bi guys suffer from the bigotry of straight women, it looks like bi women suffer the same sort of discrimination, but are also fetishized for their orientation so it's more hidden. I'm glad to have gotten to know you and your struggles a little over the years. Since I did fall in love with one guy who identified as bi, I've had a personal interest in bisexual issues, and cross-orientation issues, too.. Plus he was English. I've heard a lot of other people say they valued that you shared your thoughts and experiences too.

"I understand that women can make more money than men by investing in our appearance"
I was thinking of modelling and media.. Personally I was speaking of cosmetic surgery when I said that.. When my face got slashed up, I thought a lot about how far I was willing to go with treatments and corrective surgery.. how much I cared about how attractive I was to men in general.. I said it so broadly because this is the same sort of decision women make about how much to invest in makeup and hairstyles even when we aren't considering facelifts and boob jobs or other surgery.. There's a difference between investing in a healthy, professional appearance, and investing in superficial ways to attract men, I feel like that line is important. I feel bad for women who feel like a large sense of worth comes from receiving attention from men, instead of feeling like they have inherent worth as an individual human being. Practically, what really matters is how your mate treats you, not how most men treat you.. unless your goal is promiscuity.. it matters if your work is based on sexual attraction or unfortunately your workplace may be intolerant. I did miss the attention. I didn't feel like that made me less of a person in that I felt strongly that I wanted the old level of attention back.. I felt changed as a person though.. I wanted to heal but not erase my scars, in general.

"It's, am I not good enough/attractive enough/young enough/good enough in bed."
Why would you think that you're not good enough or attractive enough if you haven't done anything much different or changed your appearance? Why would you feel ashamed of something you can't change, like your age? If it is just wanting something different in bed, then it should be something you can try to work on, and can understand if you see it's not working. If it's just a craving for penis, slipping on a strap on or opening the relationship a crack may solve the problem :) But sometimes people fall in love with someone else. It's not necessarily a choice, sometimes people just grow apart, and it usually doesn't happen because people suddenly change orientation. Perhaps your ex girlfriend wanted to suddenly identify as straight because she was interested in being monogamous with a straight guy, who might dump her if she came out to him. If she's interested in that sort of guy and willing to turn her back on queer issues, maybe she was not so much of an ally? Like a heroin user she just needed that sort of relationship right then, even if it wasn't a great life decision? I have heard of spiteful orientation changes.. a friend's friend started identifying as gay instead of bi, after a bad relationship with a man. But it seemed to be clear that everyone knew the man was a CPOS, it was clear what he did wrong... if you didn't treat her badly, I wouldn't worry about it, just feel sorry for her lack of integrity and move on..

I'm sorry I misunderstood about Larry, you're right, he was telling me that I slammed people in a different sentence than he complimented you, maybe he didn't mean that I was insulting you with my posts. I do understand that I might, but I hope you would give me the benefit of the doubt that it was an accident and tell me how to do it politely. And yes I'm glad Larry praised you, I think you should be praised more! Thank you for refraining from interfering with misplaced chivalry, I was actually not looking for that at all and should have taken more care in expressing that, I'm glad you seemed to pick up on it anyway.

"we have evidence to the contrary because GAGGED never asked for it and Mr GAGGED never provided it"
Well, Mr G did just spring that bdsm video on GAGGED. Maybe that was his most vanilla video, maybe Mr G thought GAGGED would appreciate the bdsm aspect for some reason but sensed he should drop the subject when GAGGED reaction was unfavorable, maybe Mr G had preferred that video lately and thoughtlessly showed it to GAGGED without being ready to explain his feelings about bdsm, maybe he's an unethical sadist.

Thanks Hillyholly @188, I’ll check those out. Aren’t you a gem turning up with links. I am a bit bi, in as much as I am strongly attracted to women’s breasts. It’s not gonna work, right, telling a woman you just desire bits of her.

Lava @171: "For one you know he’s never suddenly going to go off on some anti homosexual rave." Are you kidding me!? Men who are repressing their own homosexual desires are often the loudest homophobes of all. Surely not going off on anti homosexual raves would be the evidence that he's not about to go off on anti homosexual raves?

Traffic @193, are you also kidding me!? I'm talking about these people's relationship, not my own. In my own relationships we'd have had a chat about our past sexual experiences quite early on, I'd have been open about being bisexual, and they'd have known without having had to reveal anything about themself that I'd be more than supportive of any same-sex experienes they themselves may have had. I'm a full-honesty-polyamory advocate in my own life, but thanks for the second laugh of the day.

Phi @194, "Why would you think that you're not good enough or attractive enough if you haven't done anything much different or changed your appearance? Why would you feel ashamed of something you can't change, like your age?" Because the advertising industry tells us, constantly, that we are not good enough or attractive enough, and for that slim percentage of women who do feel attractive enough, that doesn't last long because we begin to age. The advertising industry encourages us to constantly compare ourselves to other women, so that we will think that if we just buy this makeup or that bra we can compete effectively against the (professionally styled, probably photoshopped) women in their ads.

"Well, Mr G did just spring that bdsm video on GAGGED." No, GAGGED asked to see his husband's private videos. We don't know what caused Mr GAGGED to choose that particular video: it could have just been the first chronological video on his phone; it could be that this was the man who consented to be videoed, that he did not record his vanilla sessions; it could be that he didn't really want to share, so he picked this one in order to put GAGGED off; it could be that he just didn't realise GAGGED would be shocked. People who have a lot of kinky sex sometimes forget that it can be off-putting to others. I'm not drawing any conclusions about Mr GAGGED. I think they've both learned a lesson about Pandora's boxes.

What Fan @196? If a man has had homosexual experiences, and he’s comfortable in himself about it.. that’s who I was referring to. That he’s not likely to go off on a sudden homophobic rant. Yes, I know, or believe, those who repress their homoerotic impulses are the most prone to be homophobic. Cross wires there.
/ maybe Philo @194, Mr GAGGED wants GAGGED to know about all of him, and this video showed GAGGED that. It’s Time, says Mr GAGGED for you to know the truth and the whole truth.

BDF@196: How you behave in your private life is not something I can comment on. I can only comment on the opinions you espouse here - and here, you say 'what she doesn't know won't hurt her' and 'if it makes her happy to think that, let her' like Captain Sparrow repeating 'but why is the rum gone,' as if honesty for the sake of honesty is entirely confusing to you.

The thing is, for lots of people, the policy is that unless you have a hugely compelling reason to mislead/deceive your spouse, you shouldn't. It destroys trust if they find out (and they often do), damages your own feelings of intimacy for them (because you're hiding things from them) and generally weakens the relationship. There's no hugely compelling reason for him to continue to mislead her here, so he shouldn't.

Ms Fan - Thank you for highlighting the difference between "abuse" and "abusive". I did have the thought afterwards that that would have been more exact. Abusive conduct may not be experienced as abuse and probably isn't so experienced in a consensual encounter. Whether H4 coloured strictly within the lines of consent, we and LW4 have no way to tell. I've known it to be fairly frequent for lines to get crossed in encounters of this sort - if one's lucky, the line isn't serious. Now, if H4 intended to indulge a known kink when he negotiated the outsourcing and just didn't mention it, that's somewhere on the Shady Scale. I'm much more concerned, though, with reducing the shaming that so often causes the need to turn a negative into a positive. If at some point in the future gay lives are so good that some of us feel drawn to mock-abusive play, I may raise an eyebrow at the implied privilege but not much more.

Ms Phile - This is like the March Hare telling Alice to have some more wine. The people I knew didn't abandon queer issues because they never took them up. They just spent a certain allotment of years having fun and then moved on. My thought on equalization was that it's much more possible to separate career advancement from partnering a woman than forming a family. While in the latter case it's much less necessary than it was, it will always be generally easier.

M?? Harriet - Well, I did come up with one. H4's subs could be Trumpian executives. It stills feels a bit specialized, though.

My take on NOHOMO's conundrum is that nobody has a right to know every last detail of their partner's (safe, sane, consensual) prior sexual history. NOHOMO didn't disclose because it was not important or relevant, and that omission was not a "lie".

Also, set up for the double hunsky...