Savage Love Jun 16, 2020 at 3:48 pm

Oral Reports




You're totally super 100% completely gay if you dream about sucking your own dick, didn't you know that? Still straight though even if you actually touch your own dick, to the point of orgasm, every day.

Pete Holmes has a great bit about it.. "I give a man a handjob most days.. ME!"


"I get at least one letter every day from a woman who’s worried her husbands is gay because he like to have his nipples played with or his butts touched or because he has feelings."

Dan, Dan. You know a woman who has multiple husbands and at least one of them has multiple butts and YOU DIDN'T LEAD WITH THAT?
For shame!



Also, my blood is boiling in about 3 different ways with the second letter. I might be almost as angry at the wife as the husband. But it's really not my battle, so I'll leave it to others who have a bigger stake in the business.

AKA, I can't wait till some gay men have at letter #2.


Also, stay healthy and socially distant, Dan and take care of yourself. Gotta put your own oxygen mask on first (or in this case, got to do what you need to do so you don't have to put on an oxygen mask).

But thanks for the postscript: I haven't just been missing the SLLOTD, I've been concerned about the reason it might not be running. I'm glad to know that you (and hopefully your whole family) are healthy.

I've been very heartened by Seattle's protests.


@1: WA-HOOOOOO!!!! Congratulations again to jack chandelier (obviously you're not that pissed off anymore at my ecstatic cries of "WA-HOOOOOO!!!!", amiright?) on scoring the FIRDT Award, once again leading us into this week's Savage Love comment thread. Savor the highly coveted honors. :)
@2 nocutename: WA-HOOOOO!!!! Congratulations to nocutename for establishing a very clever new numbers game numerical award---@2. Bask in the glory of what is now officially the SECNOD Award!:)


If all else fails, GP could always try auto-fellating.


@4 nocutename: I am wishing I could attend the Seattle Black Lives Matter peaceful protests. Travel is still restricted in Whatcom County (I live 85 miles north of Seattle), and I noticed peaceful protesters on a downtown street while riding the bus home with my mask on from my local pharmacy as the bus was moving--also wishing my local news sources were better at posting local protest events. There was better organization in 2017 with our local Women's Marches. I, too, find it heartening to see strong community bonding and actions being taken to address the criminal wrongdoings of racism, police brutality and misogyny. :)
@6: Sorry, Dan--maybe my suggestion to GP isn't a very good one. Your response is better. I agree: auto-fellatio would only work if the man is limber enough and his dick is long enough. Ensuing chronic back problems would truly suck (pun intended this time).


I believe that OUROBOROS was asking Dan for permission to suck someone else's cock. I also believe that Dan would grant permission. OUROBOROS should go for it.


By way of evidence for @8, I point to OUROBOROS having discovered the word Oneiromancy and worked it into an elaborate signoff. He wants this dream to predict that future.

Stay safe, Dan.


Someone needs to watch the kids.
Someone needs to be the safe ride home.
Someone needs to make sandwiches to pack.
Someone needs to make phone calls.
Someone needs to rally their friends.
Someone needs to donate money.
Someone needs to buy bottles of water, milk, and antiseptic and hand sanitizer.
Someone needs to be the shoulder to cry on.
Someone needs to sew masks and hand them out.

Just because you or someone you know can’t physically be at a march, don’t think you’re not contributing. There are lots of ways to push forward justice work that are necessary for street marches to happen.


Dan the Man, fubar @9, and everyone--stay healthy and safe. Cyber hugs, positrons, and VW beeps from my beloved Love Beetle and me! :)


@10 slinky: Thank you and bless you, slinky. :)


When I was 32, I was close to being the same kid I was in high school In some ways, light years away in others. Your teenage foibles need not be brought up to your SO unless you plan on making the same mistakes/choices now. She probably loves you for who you are, and appreciates that who you were had a part in your journey, but doesn’t need a “blow-by-blow” account. Let sleeping dogs lie.


@slinky@10: Very well said and very true.


As for NOHOMO-
Why not tell her? We all go through different phases and there’s nothing wrong with that. While I was inclined to suggest keeping quiet if part of her thrill is thinking she is the one who got you there to begin with and appreciates you going along with it in whatever may be the context of your dynamic and this particular scenario, I think she will appreciate you telling her about your early life experiences and how things panned out afterwards, assuring her that this is really your “first” with a man. I sense she will be appreciative, may even thrilled to know the details.

I’m unpleasantly surprised by Dan’s assessment of how money straight cis women are terrified of their men’s possible homoerotic inclinations.

Ass for Gay Poser- on the positive side, the word “gay” seems to be used in a much more positive way by straight dudes than the constant negativity and putting down of the not-so-distance past and possibly present. That said it still feels immature and could come up as negative. The wife is likely to have a point.


@CMD: Straight women seem to be terrified that their men are secretly gay and I'm trying to figure out why this is such a big fear, as opposed to straight men being afraid that their women are secret lesbians.

I've been trying to figure out why the discrepancy and I think it comes down to the patriarchy and the prevailing cultural opinion that being male is superior to being female. That's what's behind couples who have the "one penis" rule.


@7: Am I racist for having curiously gazed a bit too long at a pedestrian at Gas Works Park on Lake Union in Seattle with my parents back in 1968 when I was four years old, admiring what I had thought was a gorgeous deep suntan? As someone born Caucasian and raised in predominantly white neighborhoods (North Seattle and elsewhere), the current uprising of Black Lives Matter protests has made me wonder. At least I know better now, over the last 52 years not to stare at anyone.
We really are all in this together.


nocute @ 16
Is it something along the line of fearing of losing the married –to-a-man status?
Of course there’s also the discrepancy with men lobbying for FFM while avoiding MMF even if their female partner ever brings it up. As this week’s letter may indicate some attitudes may be shifting.


NOHOMO - Why do you want to harsh your wife's buzz? Just try to look surprised when the other guy gets his dick out.

GP - The word you're looking for isn't 'gay', it's 'cocktease'



Was the closeted rough top response sarcasm, Dan? Because I definitely read no-suckie as a pearl grabbing queen.


On the subject of BLM and the coronavirus, before the march in Sydney, which, while drawing inspiration from the American movement, was focussed on Australia's dreadful record of Aboriginal deaths in custody, the NSW Premier made a 'now is not the right time to protest" statement. Gladys, you're in charge of Australia's largest police force and prison system - if you don't want people to protest, do something to fix the bloody problem.


@20 Pan, I got the same take on LW4 -- at least, in the sense of "not-in-favor-at-ALL-how-COULD-you??!"

Perhaps that even ties in to the LW's own aversion to PI(h)M sex -- he doesn't view it positively and D/s scenes just reinforce that for him? Just a guess.


@22 Siomopomo - I think we all got that vibe, but it was tim browne who made the comment, not me.


Stay safe Dan, and good I found your email Grizelda . It’s so easy to worry at the moment.
LW1, I disagree with Dan here. I think you should disabuse your wife of her beliefs. Why would she go into panic mode, when she suggested it. And her wanting to ‘watch’ your first homosexual experience seems yuk to me. What, she taking pictures too?
The thing Dan, is not to indulge women’s fears about their men, rather it’s best to encourage them to confront them. This writer is clear he’s heterosexual, so his wife has nothing to worry about.
She, like the LW and the man they will invite, is an adult.


Wow, my thoughts went in a whole other direction when reading GAGGED's letter. I thought the issue was that GAGGED made a reasonable accommodation for his partner to get some blowjobs on the side (since he's not inclined to blow him himself), and then discovered that it's been not just blowjobs, but a whole bunch of kinky stuff as well - stuff they never discussed and GAGGED had no idea was going on. Being kinky and poly I could kinda relate. I'd feel weird too if I agreed for my girlfriend to have (what I assumed to be vanilla) NSA hookups and then found out later that she's also been doing D/s/ degradation kink/ whatever with these hookups (emotional SM is way more intimate in my book than any standard sex act). I'd probably feel foolish, misled, maybe even betrayed. I'd probably feel like she deliberately exploited a communication loophole. Then I'd process the shit out of these feels and eventually recognise that it's wrong of me to police how my partner has sex with other people, and I should maybe go look at the source of the insecurity that this whole situation stirred up.

... Then I read Dan's response and thought that I'm probably being way too lesbian about this :)


NOHOMO had a few same sex encounters in high school, which reinforced his preference for women. Nonetheless, he has a agreed to an MMF threesome, which is Ms. Nohomo's fantasy. That suggests the answer to NOHOMO's question depends on why he has agreed to an MMF threesome and perhaps on whether he will be the center of attention or whether the special guest star will be the center of attention. If NOHOMO is going ahead with this threesome based on his wife's enthusiasm, but not his own, then he should be truthful with her about his past experiences. More importantly, there should really be a discussion about how this MMF threesome will play out so that the Nohomo's have the greatest likelihood of this threesome turning out in a way enjoyable to everyone.


I think the answer to LW1 was a miss.

Dan's often-repeated principle that couples should keep some secrets from each other is reasonable when that secret would cause pain, but keeping this one seems like just setting up a wall in their bedroom for no reason.

LW's wife wants to share his exploration of sex with men, and Dan is telling him to exclude her from it.

The teenage experiments are not a big deal, but they're obviously on his mind. He's going to seem awkward as hell every time gay sex comes up if he's hiding it.

And anyway, I feel like if the wife is into this idea, the story of his past experiences is going to be hot to her.


OUROBOROS, IIRC, the opening scene of the 2006 John Cameron Mitchell film "Shortbus" was of a verrrrrry limber young man going to town on himself. Living the dream, haha. But..he was young..& hung..& full of..flexibilty. If you think you have it in you to try, why not? It's not likely, though.

Hey Sloggers, still out here reading y'all. Been lurking for awhile as things have felt overwhelming but I miss you & am going to try to chime in more often. Hope all of you are handling the pandemic okay.

Dan..I hear you, re: the protests. I want to be in DC with my friends & my fist in the air, but being immunosuppressed (lupus) holds me back. A local pal was pre-organizing the larger rally coming up in August, asking us what our plans for it were. I replied I couldn't attend but would signal boost & make cookies & kickass signs for people who were going. Ah, a friend of his responded, you're a social justice bard. 💜

You have a much much bigger platform than I do. Stay safe & keep using it.


Gay poseur, how old are you boys, with the dick sucking jokes? Teenagers can get away with that shit, barely, and you and your crew keep it going into marriage.


Hi Eva, Good to see you. Stay safe.


@28 Eva Hopkins: Hi Eva--welcome back! So glad to hear that you're okay.:)
@30 LavaGirl: I second it. Big hugs, positrons, and VW beeps to you, Dan, and everyone. :)


"or because he has feelings" - ROFL! I nearly spat my coffee, that made up for the unnecessary extra plurals. If this isn't a joke, it's pretty sad.

GAGGED is appalled.

Aha, Dan is in a high risk category, that's why he's more of a stickler about Covid than other sex positive advisers might be. Stay safe, Dan! I recently received a letter saying I'm going to be receiving one of those stimulus checks, which I wasn't expecting (and why waste two stamps instead of just enclosing the check? Hmm). If I do receive one, I will return it to the Black Lives Matter bail fund. Thanks for raising awareness, Dan.

Griz @6, I have wondered whether auto-fellating is something most teenage boys try. I know I would. Penis havers of the board? (I'd certainly lick my own nipples if I had been blessed in that department.)

CMD @15, Dan nailed the "why not tell her." A big part of Mrs NOHOMO's excitement is that this threesome is going to break her husband's same-sex cherry (she is "particularly turned on" by this). Telling her it won't be would spoil that aspect for her. It seems kind of like telling someone the brand new pair of Louboutins you bought them was actually purchased secondhand, though not visibly so, on eBay.

I am inclined to agree that NOHOMO should have said "actually, I experimented with a guy friend back in high school" when she first mentioned the first-time aspect. But he didn't, so if he does tell her, he should do it (not immediately, but some time) after they have this threesome, so she'll get to enjoy it fully.

Re paragraph two, I too was dismayed to learn how common this is. And they are writing to a gay man to ask, meaning they presumably do not consider themselves homophobic. I despair for the straights.

Re paragraph three, I have seen this amongst the twentysomethings. There is less emphasis on defining one's orientation; there is tendency among some who are functionally bisexual, even tending toward the hetero side, to describe themselves as "so gay." It seems an effort to throw homophobia in the faces of the homophobes and if that's what's happening here, I hope the wife can recognise that.

Nocute @16, exactly. It seems to come down to the supremacy of the penis. Women who like men and women get rounded to straight, men who like men and women get rounded to gay. Men aren't worried that their female partners like women because they've watched porn and think that means they'll get a threesome. The bias is that only sex that includes a penis is "real" sex, and that lesbianism is performative. I mean:

This doesn't explain why so many women fear that their husbands are gay, though. I guess the more insecurity that can be cultivated in women, the better?

Griz @17, of course not. You were a child. This was an unfamiliar sight to you. It is up to parents to explain things to their children and I hope your parents did as good a job as mine of explaining that people with ancestral origins in different parts of the world have different skin tones, which does not affect their/our value as people. I think one of the most important things we as white people can do is recognise that regardless of our intentions, we all can learn to be better. Getting defensive and saying "I'm not a racist!" helps no one; listening does.

Lava @24, I spat my coffee again. Watching two men (who are both into you) get it on is HOT, HOT, HOT. I am excited for Mrs NOHOMO and if she does want to take photos, I hope they let her.

Hex @27, interesting take. Indeed, Mrs NOHOMO is not going to feel threatened by these early experiments -- quite the opposite -- so why not share? (After the fact, perhaps, as I suggested up-comment.) One answer might be that she uses them as evidence that he isn't straight and would be up for MMFs on the regular, which may not be the case.


@32 "I have wondered whether auto-fellating is something most teenage boys try. I know I would. Penis havers of the board?"

A long time ago, when I was young and supple, I managed to take my own penis in my mouth. Did not try an "auto-BJ to completion", though. Too uncomfortable a position to hold for long.


I guess GAGGED learned a lesson about privacy. I wonder why Mr GAGGED didn't show him a video of a vanilla blowjob, presuming that was an option (or perhaps only the subs consented to be filmed?). Perhaps Mr GAGGED wanted to ensure his husband never asked again.


I must congratulate GP's wife on inventing a time machine, traveling back to the 90's, and bringing a man and his friends to the present. Because seriously, the shit the letter writer is describing is so very fucking tired.


BDF @ 32
“I have wondered whether auto-fellating is something most teenage boys try. I know I would.”
It was virtually unheard of when I grew up, and never crossed my mind despite a fairly rich masturbation and self-indulgent career.
It would be also very hard to achieve. While never too flexible I’m on the smaller side and was always active. Getting into such position as placing one’s penis in their mouth sounds very challenging to begin with, let alone maintaining this for at least few minutes and going through the shuddering of reaching an orgasm.

One of the first times if not the very one I’ve heard about this phenomenon to be real, as opposed to nothing but a bad joke, was right here in SL. A woman wrote about her bf confessing to the habit and demonstrating to completion. Guess what her question was.

Speaking of women fearing their men are gay… I’m sorry to say, but Dan’s early years in this column were rife with assertions in that direction, almost to the point of classifying any slight deviation from what were considered straight men norms as clear closet cases.
I acknowledge and appreciate minds and attitudes shifting since then, though for me personally it came in a time when I was still married, struggled with my secret habits and wondered if there’s a way to share any of this with my ex.


Spit away, Fan @32. It may be hot, hot, hot, it also involves two other people and their pleasure.
Not telling her the truth before and waiting till after, is treating her like a child and may humiliate her. There she was thinking it’s all new for him, and enjoying that aspect when it isn’t new at all. If he treats her like an adult woman, telling her now, then the threesome will hold a honest experience for her.


CMD @36, I will second Eva @26's recommendation of the film Shortbus which indeed opens with a scene of self fellatio. If I had a penis to try this with, I would not expect to perform the act to completion for the reasons you've described. As with dicks that are attached to others, completion might be reasonably expected to involve hands and not just mouth.

Lava @37: "it also involves two other people and their pleasure." Yes, that's WHY it's hot. I agree he should have corrected her when she first mentioned "it will be your first time with guy, I'm so excited!" But then again, why burst that bubble? He could treat her like a child at Christmas, couldn't he? It will be his first time with a guy and a woman, so there will be novelty involved. Did we vaguely agree that "light role play" should be an easy ask? If so, he is lightly role-playing a guy who has never sucked a dick before. I think this falls under the category of not telling someone their ass looks fat in those pants.


An honest experience for the three of them.
Does LW1 have to pretend he’s a little horrified to put a cock in his mouth, to keep this charade authentic?


No it’s not, Fan. It’s an intimate sexual experience and if he doesn’t tell her the truth, it’s based on a lie. She’ll suss anyway his familiarity, and then his cover is blown. The other guy sure will, and what if she’s blurted that’s it’s the LWs first time when the third feels the truth, that it’s not.
Don’t lie. He can correct her now, saying he didn’t want to spoil her excitement at the time she brought up the idea, however, to keep the experience for all honest, he’s telling her now. Surely it will be hotter for her, because there’s little chance the LW is going to freak out about any of it, because he’s been with men before. And he’s checked his preferences, and women it is.


NOHOMO: Definitely don't tell her before you do a MMF and maybe not afterwards. You don't know how long it'll be before you'll have your threesome and it sounds like your wife is enjoying the anticipation, there's no reason to let her know this is a fantasy rather than reality. If seeing you pop your gay cherry becomes a cherished memory of hers, you might want to never tell her, but I'd guess she'd find the anticipation hotter than the memory.

Either way, you're not really under any king of obligation to tell her. It doesn't sound like it's something core to who you are and you're in a better position than anyone else to know if telling her will be a good idea or not.

@32: Yeah, probably every teenage boy tries and almost all fail. It's almost like those who were able to suck themselves properly failed to reproduce and therefore that ability was removed from our gene pool.


Lava @39-@40, I can assure you that I was not "a little horrified" the first time I had the opportunity to put a pussy in my mouth, so I don't know why you would assume a (presumably) bi-curious man would feel that way. A few experiences 15 or more years ago do not confer familiarity, at least not enough that one might notice. I had to eat a lot more pussy than that before I stopped being nervous. When younger I had the privilege of taking a young man's virginity, and if he had not told me this was the case I wouldn't have suspected. In fact I felt quite special that I was going to be the first person he shared this experience with. Why shouldn't Mrs NOHOMO get to enjoy this feeling of specialness, too? I see little to be gained in spoiling the fantasy for her. "Surely it will be hotter for her" -- he's literally said that the first-time aspect is a big part of the turn-on, so no, it won't.


@2 perhaps the Stranger furloughed the proofreaders.


Here's a question for 100% straight but curious guys who've have the suck-their-own-cock dream like OUROBOROS (truly amazing sign off), and then have tried giving a BJ: was the dream sensation of the giving part as realistic as the receiving? Did your dream sensation change after trying dick-for-real?

I'm pan/bi cis male and my body has experienced giving and receiving BJs. The dream feels authentic bi-directionally, so to speak.

Except I have a super sensitive gag reflex IRL and in the dream, I can deep throat! Talk about wish fulfillment.


For LW #1 - wife might get off on hearing stories about hubby's previous exploits, if he lets her know about them. Personally I'd say tell - not for her sake, but for his. Keeping this lie is making him uncomfortable, so just tell the truth.

LW #2: Are y'all seriously middle school kids in the 90's or something?

LW #4: I think that every time you find out someone gets off on hurting or otherwise abusing others, you're always gonna have a small part of your brain that goes "is this SSC, or does this person have a dark side I don't know about?" Just ask your husband a few more questions about "so just to be clear, that's what he asked for, right?" if you need reassurance. For BDF @ 34, yeah, I assume that this was just the guy who both liked being filmed and having it shown to others.

Regarding the whole "women's fear of closeted guys" thing - it's a holdover from old times when this was more of a legitimate worry - when being "down low" and using a woman as a beard was more prevalent. Give it a few more decades of homosexuality being socially acceptable, and the practice will fade from general memory - and with it, the fear of being an unwitting beard.


@20,@22 yup, my take was LW is vanilla and wants / thought he had a vanilla husband. The strange thing is why he's surprised - it's not so unusual to enjoy and only want vanilla w/ partner and outsource the kink.


The reason honesty is important is in case of dealbreakers. NOHOMO experimented with bisexuality as a teenager, decided he was straight, and moved on. Is he required to disclose this to partners? Would a tried and rejected same-sex experiment be a dealbreaker for most women, something they would want to know because it would affect their opinion of him to the point of not wanting to be with him? It might for some, but it clearly isn't for this one. She knows he is -willing- to experiment with men, since he has agreed to do that as part of this MMF threesome. So it could be argued that she knows all she needs to know about his sexuality to make a decision on whether to be with him, and that answer is not just yes but hell yes.


Traffic @45, what is SSC?

Delta @46, I'm not surprised he's surprised, because he wasn't aware he was outsourcing kink, he thought he was outsourcing blowjobs, which to his vanilla mind are a vanilla act. It seems they never had a conversation about Mr GAGGED wanting kinky sex. And from Mr GAGGED's reply, he may not in fact have an independent desire for kinky sex, but was being GGG for the subs who were sucking his cock.


D'oh - safe, sane and consensual.


The demonstrations around the world, are so overdue and powerful. Yet we have the Virus.
Not only old people getting sick And dying with it. It has been debilitating for some who are counted as recovered.
The numbers of humans lost to this has doubled in a few weeks, and it’s not going anywhere. It’s bigger than us.
I salute those saying No, again, to systemic racism and racist Police violence. I also worry many of them might get sick.


But I wasn't done with last week's column! Four pages is a lot to get through..

NOHOMO - If you're afraid to talk about the sort of sex that you plan to have.. I'm not sure it's going to turn out to be so mutually enjoyable.
Are you agreeing to the MMF because you will enjoy messing around with another guy with your wife? Or because you enjoy giving your wife pleasure and you hope that you can do what she wants and act as her fantasy?
Is your wife into a MMF because she gets off on the fact that you would mess around with someone that you're not attracted to for her? Or because she thinks you may be bisexual and wants to see if you're turned on by a man? Or because she is into opening the relationship in baby steps and is curious about other men? Or because she wants to ease into an FFM situation next where she will get to be with a woman, or see you with a different woman?

I'm not sure why you didn't feel comfortable telling her about your early experiences, whether it is irrational shame from internalized homophobia, or fear of her reaction. She doesn't seem to think that homosexuality is wrong or weird or bad if she wants you to mess around with another guy. But maybe you are picking up on a part of your wife that you weren't aware of for the last 9 years, that she is curious about other men or wants to dominate you or is worried about your sexual attraction to her or has closeted bisexuality of her own or has some cuckquean in her.. It happens. Interesting question. I personally hope they talk about the specifics and make sure they are both into the plan before realizing it, whether he fesses up or not.

GP - If you are interested in sex with other men as well as with women, I think that makes you bicurious. Maybe bisexual. Not gay. It's sort of artificial and homophobic and patriarchal to erase bisexuality and round bi guys to gay (and bi women to straight), I think. Men and women may be more afraid of losing their lover to a man.. but that assumes that male lovers are better.

OUROBOROS - Seems to be wondering if sucking cock in real life may be as good as it feels in his dream. I'm not sure it's realistic to try to suck his own cock in reality but maybe this is some weird narcissistic attraction to yoga.. The easiest way to realize this fantasy seems to be to suck a dildo that resembles his cock while receiving head. If he is into his fantasy cock sucking enough to want to 69 with another guy, I think he should. Maybe when confronted with the reality it's not as good as the fantasy, or he finds he doesn't really want to go through with it in real life, and that's fine too.

GAGGED - I think the most likely fear is that Mr GAGGED is secretly kinky and is going to find a nice sub to settle down with and leave. Which doesn't make any more sense than Mr GAGGED leaving to settle down with a good cocksucker. If GAGGED were more able to ask about his husband's sexual desire and try to fulfill it himself, he'd be less worried about being insufficient. Or maybe GAGGED wants to be smacked around and called names and can learn how to ask for it, idk.


BDF @49: LOL! Yeah, I was sitting here like "Ok, not to presume, but based on some of your other comments I didn't think you'd need this one explained to you."


Honesty is important in a marriage because deception creates distance between partners, where (hopefully?) the goal is closeness.


"I get at least one letter every day from a woman who’s worried her husbands is gay because he like to have his nipples played with or his butts touched or because he has feelings."

/Every/ day, wow.
And OUROBOROS thinks he might be bi because he gives /himself/ BJs in his dreams.

@8@9 fubar
That makes sense and would have never occurred to me. (Because I can't imagine why anyone would think they'd need to ask for permission.)

While Sublime@26 was a little abstract for me, it definitely made me think that NOHOMO (wow that acronym is offensive!) would need some acting skill to pull this off, in that Mrs. NOHOMO presumably is excited by the possibility that NOHOMO will discover he is into this in a way that NOHOMO has already learned he isn't. In other words NOHOMO will need to feign anticipation of a possibility that he already knows /isn't/ a possibility.

Now, he doesn't say he doesn't want to, and he doesn't say he does. And maybe the aforementioned "possibility" is the only reason Mrs. NOHOMO wants this; or maybe not.

If he feels like he can pull off the act, then there's no reason not to give Mrs. NOHOMO the gift of the illusion of her fantasy.

OTOH, he might ask Mrs. NOHOMO if it would ruin it for her if 'they' found out from this experience that he didn't discover this opened a door he's extremely into. In other words, maybe him doing it 'for her' won't do anything for her anyway; in that case keeping it from her would give her no gift at all. But maybe she'd love it if he did it and wasn't into it; she might get off just on being there for his 'first' time, or she might get off on him doing it /for/ her.

So I suggest he consider whether he's got the necessary acting skills. And whether he thinks he could pull off asking her if the only payoff for her would be if he turns out to be bi; if so, and if he doesn't want to, then there'd be little point.


@54 correction
"then there'd be little point."

Er, in the MM aspect. Presumably there would be a couple well-proportioned points for Mrs. NOHOMO in a MFM, you go girl!

@54 p.s.
Wow, I just addressed a question with multiple unknowns!

If anyone found my doing so confusing, maybe no one should mind the times I resist doing so.

I think I did so this time because I thought it might be helpful, and I thought I could communicate it without going on at great length.


BiDanFan32: Not speaking for others. but as a teenager and early 20s I definitely tried a few times throwing my legs over my head to see how close I could get to sucking my own dick. I realized it helps to have a longer, very flexible upper body and a larger dick for success. I remember seeing a friend in college who was tall, thin, and flexible and could easily throw his legs over his shoulders and his crotch would be very near his face. I always had a fantasy of him blowing himself. Have to admit I enjoy auto-fellatio porn now and then. I suspect if more men could do it, it would be as common as giving yourself a handjob, just another form of masturbation.


BDF @ 38
Your question was if this auto-fellating is something most teenage boys try and I answered in regards to my experience. That such a scene appeared in a movie some 25 years later is irrelevant to my answer nor is it an indication for the popularity of the act.

I searched for the mentioned scene but could only find snippets of it in an edited version here:

The assumed popularity of the act among some SL female readers gave me a bit of an uncomfortable feeling, often conveyed by another regular here. Yet while looking for the above-mentioned scene I’ve also stumbled upon some auto-fellating porn, as opposed to sex in an artsy movie, that include different positions and not only by getting your thighs over your shoulders.
So if this is your thing here’s a fit young man with a big penis who can do it while seating. Plenty more links if you scroll down:

Be advised that if you are still employed and would like to keep it this way then you should refrain from playing any of the links I provided on a company computer during your lunch break, let alone while on the clock.


L1: I am trying to reconcile "sexual experience" and "fooling around" with "never did anything" - did LW1 mean that he never did anything After the FA episodes, or that, even during them, he never "did anything" that Counted? The one thing that seems clear to me is whether LW1 should tell or not. He should consult his crystal ball and look forward to a bad patch in the marriage when W1 takes credit for expanding his horizons. If he won't mind its being used as a point in her favour, don't tell. If he'll fling the truth at her then, perhaps he should tell now. Apart from that, the usual proviso applies that she should be ready for him to have independent emotions about the experience and that she not be put out if he feels X or Y instead of Z. I'd want testimony from W1 before venturing a view on her motivations, that view contributing heavily to whether I'd hope LW1 would tell or not.

A1: Mr Savage is in rare form here. "Because they have feelings" is where he might find common ground with the FeMRAs if he ever wanted it, except that he often recognizes his letter bag as showing people at their worst and they generalize. Perhaps, "Men should talk about their feelings (as long as they're the feelings we women want them to have)," is another side of the Equality Die, perhaps, "I want YOU to be equal except when I don't." As for why there's such a fear DS men are secretly gay, I shan't disagree with either the patriarchy or closet angles already proposed as components, and just suggest as another component babies. A DS man who thinks that most women want to bear and raise at least one child is likely to think this gives him a significant advantage over female rivals. A DS woman who thinks most men aren't really up to half or even a quarter of the work of parenting may well fear any sign that a more hedonistic-appearing life appeals.

L2: As Rumpole might say, if LW2 has been practising so long, he ought to be able to do it by now. The hardest thing to decide about this letter is whether to give LW2 credit for asking an actual G, or to suspect that Mr Savage was carefully selected as likely to approve. I can see how Ms Cute's blood might boil at W2, and I do think it might be productive to establish whether her opposition is really all that high-minded. As for the Charmed Circle, while in part there is a minor element of feeling as if a society in which anyone can flirt with anyone might be a genuine long-term goal, I'm more inclined to wonder both how an actual G would feel being in the middle of all that flirting that nobody really meant, and whether they'd run whimpering back to their wives if any of them ever responded, "Okay, then, let's do it!" It reminds me of The Hollow when Edward, who lives remote from Hard Realities, comes to London to take his cousin Midge, who works in a dress shop for four guineas a week, out to lunch. After hearing Midge being abused by clients upsets his unrealistic ideas about young women with jobs, Edward expresses his shock at how badly Midge is treated at the shop and expresses the wish to take her to the country by the 2:15 train. Midge then explodes in the street and tells him, "Then do it, already!" complaining that he doesn't really mean it and it infuriates her to have a dream life just bandied about like that. He hails a cab and directs it to the station before realizing the logistics don't work, but resolves at least to give Midge a nice, long lunch even if he has to go back and buy half the dresses in the shop.

The response to LW2 that popped into my mind was along the line of, "Oh, SURE, LW2! Of COURSE you mean it as a compliment! Now, I've also heard that you have some highly desirable real estate that you need to sell quickly at a knockdown price." The letter also called to mind the Majority Report, and Mr Seder's claim to a caller who didn't like the showcasing of their use that all the anti-gay slurs used by Mr Brooks and occasionally others to discredit right-wingers "come from a place of love". Mr Seder might well have been sincere about his own motivations, but Mr Brooks is clearly the kind of ally with whom the gay friend will always have to go along with being the butt of the joke.

L3: I'll file this under BT for Bad Timing. Had this happened ten years ago, LW would have had a much better chance of bringing it about. Not that 35 is impossible, but 25 was much better.

A4: This is the closest I've seen Mr Savage come for some time to an interpretation of a letter that is almost in a league with Mr Collins' taking his cousin Elizabeth's refusal of his proposal of marriage to be flattering encouragement. I can just see how he gets to the idea of thinking LW4 might want intensity, though I don't see its being that sort of intensity.

L4: Now, it would have been nice had LW4 been a little more explicit. Is he, as others have suggested, annoyed that the experience seemed to go a bit beyond what he might have expected it to entail? Does he think his husband gets off on abusing his outside partners? would like to abuse him? Did not knowing what to do encompass the possible end of the marriage? It doesn't seem entirely clear why LW4 can't initiate a conversation about H4's preferences unless LW4 fears that the genie won't return to the bottle afterwards.

Postscript: Almost every day I see or hear either a BLM rally or a BTW rally. Once I was not at all sure which, as I was in the park at the time and it took several minutes of a Republican legislator's speech for it to become clear he was speaking in favour of the full reopening of the state. I even by chance heard the WalkAway founder Mr Straka speaking one day. He gave those "on the other side of the fence" (which may or may not have been a real fence) props for at least showing up after saying FU2.

As a side point, I've observed lately used by several people as the general term Black with a capital letter. Is that now the standard, what one might call Woke Standard, or anything else in particular?


Curious @54, I think it's fair to assume that NOHOMO's early experimentation revealed that while getting jiggy with a dude didn't particularly do anything for him, he didn't HATE it; after all, he did it more than once, and he's now willing to do it in the context of an MMF threesome. So I don't think any acting will be necessary on his part. It could fall under the category of providing a spanking for a sub even when you're not into it yourself, also known as being GGG. I imagine both men will be turned on enough by Mrs NOHOMO's excitement to enjoy the experience. When she later asks whether he thinks he's bi, based on the experience, he can answer honestly. Clearly he does feel he can pull off the act, otherwise he wouldn't have agreed to it, and I love your wording "the gift of the illusion of her fantasy." That is exactly what it is, and that is why I think disclosing his earlier experiments would be counterproductive in this instance.

CMD @57, I'm not sure what about my post you've found offensive. I certainly did not intend to imply that you were lying about never having tried this. I was only offering a second data point as to the existence of what you seemed to consider an urban myth of sorts, should you have been curious to find out more. I am not basing my supposition that most teenage boys would have tried this based on having seen it in a movie, but based on my own understanding of the horniness levels of teenage boys, and whether, in their shoes (or jockstraps), I'd have given it a try. Also, I recommend the entire film Shortbus! There's a plot and everything. :) And I think female enthusiasm for the concept may have been generated out of jealousy. Hell, if we could go down on ourselves, all the vibrator companies would go out of business. :)


@58: I've recently started seeing an uptick in capitalizing the "B" in black, written by Black people. As I generally try to go with the whole "call people by their preferred name, pronoun, pronunciation, etc," I have been adopting it, but I'm still pretty inconsistent.


LW1"s wife: Honey, it would be so hot if you sucked a dick.

Everybody: This woman will probably react with jealousy and/or paranoia if she finds out he sucked a dick.


Okay, here's letter #2 in its entirety:

"My wife questions my use of the word gay as being potentially offensive and I'd like to get your take. I'm male and my male friends like to flirt and joke about performing sex acts on each other. We’ve never actually carried through with it but I consider myself on the "spectrum" and might be open to gay sex. My male friends and I say we're being or acting gay (though we're all practicing heterosexuals) and this is where my wife takes issue. For example, I might say, "We're so gay!", in our conversations but the word is used in a positive way. My wife makes the point that the word has a history of being used negatively, so may be considered offensive, and should only be used casually by people who are more legit gay. Should I stop using the word gay this way?"

How is this letter offensive? Let me count the ways:

1): "I'm male and my male friends like to flirt and joke about performing sex acts on each other. We’ve never actually carried through with it but I consider myself on the "spectrum" and might be open to gay sex." The lw is using language more commonly associated with autism than sexual orientation when he says he considers himself "on the spectrum," although he's probably referring to something like the Kinsey scale, on which he might be putting himself at a 2. And while there's nothing shameful about being neuroatypical or being on the autism spectrum, there is still a good deal of stigma associated with autism, and the way the lw uses it, the implication is that he's weird and therefore might have a little touch of the gay.

2): "My male friends and I say we're being or acting gay (though we're all practicing heterosexuals) . . . I might say, "We're so gay!", in our conversations but the word is used in a positive way." It would have been helpful for the lw to have provided an example as to a positive way that a bunch of "practicing heterosexuals" (does he mean closeted gay men?) use the phrase, "we're so gay!" Is it when someone expresses friendship or affection for another one of the friend group? Is it uttered if/when someone compliments someone else on a haircut or item of clothing? How, exactly, does it get used and how is it positive? One sentence earlier, the lw says that he and his friends "like to flirt and joke about performing sex acts on each other;" does this count as a "positive" use? Is it like Sam says to Eric: "Bro, I'd like to be able to give myself a blowjob, but I'm not limber enough. Maybe I could give you a blowjob instead?" To which Julien says, "oh, we're so gay!," and they all laugh? Or maybe Eric says to Sam, "Dude, I like your shirt!" and José says, "Watch out, Bro, he wants to bone you!" And they all crack up and our letter writer says, "Man, we're so gay!" And they all high-five each other? I mean, how is this working?

And then 3): "My wife makes the point that the word has a history of being used negatively, so may be considered offensive, and should only be used casually by people who are more legit gay."
Where to start?
Okay, I would suggest that the word itself is less offensive than the meaning being ascribed to it via its usage and intent in any given example. So yes, calling someone gay as an intended insult makes the word offensive; whereas as a neutral descriptor (Ricardo is a gay man or Richard is gay) is neither offensive nor positive, depending on who is uttering it and what comes next, I suppose. Context is everything. The lw's wife is conflating the word "gay" with a racial slur, suggesting that unless uttered by a "more legit gay" person, it's always understood to be a homophobic slur. I mean, it might indeed be offensive to a gay man to hear this dude and his dude friends say things like, "we're so gay," if indeed they are not gay or at least if no one is openly gay, but the wife's point seems to be that no one not gay himself can ever utter the word.

Just so much ugh.


Venn @58, NOHOMO says "I never did anything with ANOTHER guy" -- meaning this one friend was his only same-sex partner.
What does BTW stand for -- other than by the way, which I doubt people are rallying over?

Hex @61, literally no one is claiming the wife will react with jealousy or paranoia. The non-disclosure advocates are claiming she will react with disappointment that she doesn't get to participate in his "first time." Seek ye biphobia elsewhere.


@59 BiDanFan
"he didn't HATE it; after all, he did it more than once"

Ooops, you're right, I didn't think of that very reasonable inference!

@59 BiDanFan
I seem to recall you and someone(s) discussing something about role play weeks ago, and I think that might somehow bear upon what I'm getting at. Or maybe not, I forget nearly everything about that discussion.

"could fall under the category of providing a spanking for a sub even when you're not into it yourself"

While I didn't want to get into a long reply during that prior discussion, I think that for someone for whom spanking was not natural, doing so might entail some form of 'acting'. (Oh, and practice I think was one thought I had, but perhaps I may spare everyone the long reply I had in mind weeks back.)

But all this is only as preface to explain that it seems like with

"I don't think any acting will be necessary on his part."

you missed the somewhat fine, and by far most important, point I tried to make @54, namely that (now quoting me):

"NOHOMO will need to feign anticipation of a possibility that he already knows /isn't/ a possibility."

That's what I'm calling 'acting'. For example:

When they talk about it in advance, he's got to speak as though it's a possibility (maybe 'acting' exaggerates that, maybe it's just a 'white lie', but since I consider lying convincingly a skill I think it deserves the word "acting". Some people might be so unaware as to have no ability to tell when lied to unconvincingly, but I'm guessing a woman who can propose a MMF is less likely to be one.)

And then during, when it's more than just words but also a full complement of body language conveying various (oh geez I'm not wasting everyone's time speculating) things that might differ between a first time and subsequent times (please everyone use your imaginations), that would certainly be 'acting' (or, perhaps what if I recall correctly you called 'role play' some weeks back?).

That's what I stand by having called acting, and felt that could be at least as important, practically speaking, to note in response to NOHOMO as anything else said to him.


@59 BiDanFan
"Clearly he does feel he can pull off the act, otherwise he wouldn't have agreed to it"

Oh that's certainly true, I simply feel that what people feel they can pull off in no way determines what they actually can, and thought it was important to remind him to reflect upon it.


@BiDanFan@63: I puzzled over "BTW" also, and guessed that it stands for "back to work."


BDF @ 59
I didn’t find it offensive; it was more bewilderment as to why I get another reference to said scene while discussing personal history.
Thanks for clarifying that it was nothing but recommending the movie, which I don’t recall hearing about when it came out though interested now that I’ve seen some snippets of it. Any links to the entire movie, hopefully free ones, are welcome.

While on the research mission my initial reaction to the act itself was a bit icky, though I do recognize the primal nature of it and the maneuvering and creativity it requires. You can actually see some apes performing such acts in the zoo every now and then. Children couldn’t care less, though I recall at least one parent nervously announcing it’s time for an early lunch “by the flamingos,” promising their child a hot dog(!) if they leave right now.
Sometimes audience reactions are just as good as the show if not better.

In related news: does anyone know if consuming your own ejaculate will give you the same supposedly health benefits as drinking your own urine? Asking for a nervous friend.


@64 p.s.
I know that I hate to lie, so in his shoes in advance I'd /want/ to avoid saying stuff about it (that which he knows isn't) being a possibility. OTOH, part of what gets her off might be talking about exactly that. And (particularly if instead of being stoic, he's someone comfortable talking about their feelings) he might usually do exactly that. So to avoid lying he might not do (and be suspicious in not doing) exactly what she'd want.

If he's the uncommon person who can nail this, of course he should, and more power to him.


Auto 69 this week!


CMD @67, glad I didn't offend you, and congratulations on the lucky number! Well deserved for that hilarious mental picture of salacious happenings at the zoo.

Curious @64, sure, fair that he is already "acting" when she says things like "I can't wait to see you suck dick for the first time" and he does not betray the inaccuracy of this statement. What I meant was, although indeed he may be telling a white lie about his inexperience -- we're not sure whether it is an active lie or a passive lie, meaning he simply hasn't corrected her assumption -- he will not necessarily be "acting" in the moment by pretending to enjoy something he doesn't enjoy, feigning surprise, or anything along those lines. Think of the unfortunate sex workers who had to pretend to be attracted to Donald Trump. NOHOMO has not told his wife he's bisexual, so he won't need to feign attraction to their third. Nor will he need to feign disgust; he will only need to, perhaps, pretend he couldn't foresee in advance his reaction to a dick in his face. I would argue that if he had no experience, he could reasonably predict what his reaction would be by fantasising about it. Knowing what his reaction will be and having that reaction isn't acting, since the reaction will still be genuine.


@70 BiDanFan
Oh yes I expect that /during/ will call for nothing but doing what comes naturally.

It is in advance, whenever she might want to talk about it, that acting (which I would find /quite/ challenging enough to require a good deal of preparatory thought to pull it off convincingly) will be called for.


L-dub #1, do not be stupid. Do NOT tell your wife about your teenaged experiences. Too high a probability of it going sideways from there. Too easy of a thing to keep to yourself. Hell, there's still a very good possibility she freaks the fuck out when she sees you in the MMF that she asked for. Don't listen to the internet moralists. They don't have to live with the consequences. You do. There's nothing wrong with some secrets in a marriage. Especially one's from when you were a teenager. Also... good luck and have fun with your future MMF!

L-dub #2... the Gay Poseur. You're about 20 to 30 years too late for the way you and your friends are acting. Back in the 90s, the era of in your face reclaiming etc., what you and your friends are doing would have been thought of a supportively transgressive. You, a straight(ish?) man and your friends being unafraid to identify with being gay. Times have changed. Now, you are appropriating, or something worse. Them's the breaks. Gotta find another way to show your support... all male gangbang? Then you could even call yourselves gay and get away with it. Well, you'd still be called out for actually being bi. But you'd be closer to OK!


BDF, " literally no one is claiming the wife will react with jealousy or paranoia"
But Dan used the second, largest paragraph.. devoted most of his answer to explaining this:
"I’m guessing you didn’t tell the wife because you didn’t want her to feel insecure or spend all her free time corresponding with advice columnists about whether her husband is secretly gay."

I also thought it was weird that Dan went out of his way to tell the LW that his wife may be mistaken about being turned on by MM and might really be insecure and paranoid about MM, so he has reason to hide his MM experience. But why would they have an MMF unless MM would turn on his wife, and is that really so unusual? Isn't this a reason to scrap the whole idea if they don't believe that she knows what she wants, or at least slow down and make sure she's not going to get insecure and jealous if he likes MM?

I'm not sure what goes through women's minds when they think their husband is gay because of some common innocuous feeling, like being into prostate play, or because he isn't doing what she expects sexually, or doesn't feel as expected. I think it is either a sad deep seated belief that someday he'll realize that she is inferior to men, or a way to use homophobia to guilt a guy into having sex the way she wants to 'prove' he is straight, or fear of being a beard, maybe it's easier to break up with a man if she labels him gay than if she accepts that he just has a low libido or is asexual as a homophobic way of claiming moral high ground, it's a way to blame something he can't change for any of their relationship problems, and question his sincere attraction for her by ignoring bisexuality.. It's mostly homophobic reasoning I think. I wish that Dan would publish some of these letters just to publicly address real homophobia in women, which just reinforces homophobia in men.


Re NOHOMO - It is important to communicate to Mrs HOMO whether the main interest in MMF is in exploring your bisexuality, or in enacting her fantasy. The letter made it sound like the latter was true, while wife's comment made it sound like she believed the former. It's good to get on the same page about why you are doing this, as well as specifically what you'd each like to happen. I don't think I made my first point clearly.


Phi @73, okay, but Hex @61 is still being disingenuous. First, he reverses the order of events: in his version, the wife says she'd like an MMF and "everybody" says NOHOMO shouldn't disclose his past experience because she'd react with jealousy and paranoia; in reality, the first thing that happens is that NOHOMO declines to mention his youthful experimentation, and then the wife states she'd like an MMF threesome. In other words, he is falsely describing a reaction to an event which had not yet happened. Second, Dan is talking about why many men don't disclose things like this in their past: because many women would react with insecurity or doubt about his sexuality, which Hex exaggerates as "jealousy and paranoia." Dan is not talking about what -this woman's- reaction will be. And when he finally answers the question "should I tell her now," he does not incongruously assume that -this woman- will react negatively, as Hex implies. Like I stated upthread, he says NOHOMO should withhold the information in order to preserve her excitement. Third, DAN talks about some women's reactions; that's one person, which is very far from "everybody." No one in the comments opined that Mrs NOHOMO was being dishonest about her desires. Now, it's possible Hex had not read the comments and that we commenters were not the "everybody" he was referring to. He's still mischaracterising Dan's words, which pertain only to NOHOMO's possible thought process, and not at all to Mrs NOHOMO's attitude.

"I also thought it was weird that Dan went out of his way to tell the LW that his wife may be mistaken about being turned on by MM and might really be insecure and paranoid about MM, so he has reason to hide his MM experience." I don't think he did do that. I think he went out of his way to assure NOHOMO he had done nothing unforgivable by not disclosing sooner.


Funny dropout @72. Internet moralists? Fuck off with that shit. Lying by omission is still lying.
truth is, which ever way he jumps, issues might arise. This is a marriage, not a random short term thing. So it starts a conversation with his wife, how is that bad. They are in lockdown, sex is going good, sharing fantasies and kinks and wishes.
Sure, she’ll wonder why he hasn’t ever mentioned this before. I wonder the same thing. So he will need to ask himself the same question. Shame? Or best not disclose to women certain experiences, because they can’t handle the truth!


Lies and Lying comes so easy to some. Take the many Male Leaders around the world, take Trump et al. Big Fat Lies from Day One of the Virus and look where the States are at. Same for Boris. Our fool of a PM couldn’t get away with it, though he’s stacked his Covid-19 Advisory lot with his mining buddies. He loves Trump. Political corruption from arse to tit with our Govt., too. We also right next to NZ, our long term sister and rugby rival, they always win. Their PM Is a woman. Well, couldn’t let them
Outshine us now could we? Not only NZ was saved by their PM.
You lie to me, trust is gone. Simple. So far, LW1 has kept some of his life to himself. His business, his choice. If he continues this charade into a sexual experience involving his wife and another man, it takes it to a level of deceit.


I have a hunch there isn't enough meat on the bones of this column to keep us chewing on it all week.


@77 LavaGirl - not disagreeing with the substance of your post, but as a factual correction, I've heard ScoMo has exactly the same opinion of Trump as the rest of us, however willing he seems to be to use Trump's politics of division. Let's hope he learns from the boost in polls he got from his collaborative, sensible response to the pandemic, especially when contrasted with his disastrous response to the bushfires over summer. Do you reckon I should hold my breath?


Addendum - I'm only saying ScoMo did a good job with the pandemic, not a Jacinda Ardern quality job.


A lot of drama about NOHOMO, I think a few words in the letter are important; "fantasies"and "will be to make this happen once ..." (i.e. sometime in the indefinite future, the set "indefinite future" including "not in our lifetimes",which would make his acting abilities moot)

I think it is possible that having NOHOMO just agree as part of a fantasy might be all that the wife want's, agreeing to do something, for her, that relativity few men would do, may be part of the turn on. Knowing that he's done it before might make it not so special and not "just for her" So telling her might not just remove the excitement of hypothetically being there for his first time, it might not be something she would want to know at all.

I don't think most couples go into a lot of detail about previous partners, so omitting this in the past is understandable. When they were talking about fantasies, maybe his fantasy is sharing a new experience with his wife, and the conversation was in the fantasy realm, so even if it technically wasn't "new" the fantasy was that it was.... Besides it will (hypothetically) be the first time with his wife watching.


Wow, the COVID stats for Australia and New Zealand are sweet.

/Deaths per one million population/
UK 621
(Spain, Italy, Sweden, and France fall here)
USA 362
South Korea 5
Australia 4
New Zealand 4

/Active Cases/
USA 1,195,734
South Korea 1,177
Australia 420
New Zealand 2


BiDanFan @34 Agree with you that the question is why Mr GAGGED showed that particular video. I can't decide whether it was intended as a conversation-stopper or a conversation-starter. Maybe, as you say, this was a way of getting his husband to back off, assuming that he already knew that his husband was anti-harsh-kink. Or perhaps Mr GAGGED wanted to test the waters a bit about broadening sexual activities at home.


@32 BiDanFan: Thank you, I wholly agree. I make it point to this day out of politeness and respect of others not to stare, and be aware of the positive, unique qualities of all around me. Thank heavens for cultural diversity. Now if we could reach global equality....or is that a futile wish? To think that there would never again be war anywhere. Wouldn't world peace truly be beautiful? :)

@66 nocutename; I think BTW in text can also mean "by the way". :)

@69 WA-HOOOOOOOO!!!! Auto-congrats to CMDwannabe on scoring this week's Lucky @69 Award! Bask in your delectable glory and savor its rich honors. :)

Now who's going to score this week's Big Hunsky? Lava? Are you ready to snag another lucky and sexy mountain man? Tick...tick...tick...


@70 BDF - Or indeed, those unfortunate wives...

@82 Curious - we got a big assist from geography in this part of the world but, yeah, having governments taking the pandemic seriously seems to have worked. I only hope you guys realise just how badly President Trump has mismanaged things so you can deliver a considered judgment come November.


I'll also add myself to the list of penis-bearers who never attempted auto-fellation - I threw my back out just reading OUROBOROS's letter...


Pan @85, in the Donald's case, same thing. ;)
We're here on an island too, in the UK, and Boris couldn't have done a worse job unless he was Trump. The jury is out really on who mangled the Covid situation worse.


Phi @73, I figured out a much more succinct way of making my point from post @75, which is to rephrase Hex @61's comment like this:

"Everybody: My wife will probably react with jealousy or paranoia if I tell her I sucked a dick.
Mrs NOHOMO: Let's have an MMF, hot!!"


@58 Mr Venn, I would guess, if forced, that Black is now woke standard in order to emphasise that we are talking about a constructed identity, as opposed to actual skin colour. Interestingly, in Australia, it is not uncommon among leftists and Guardianistas to see Blak used, presumably for the same reason. I will stress that this is simply my guess as an observer of English usage, and I will happily stand corrected if anyone with more direct experience of the issues involved would like to comment.


BDF, I understand that hexprone was a bit hyperbolic, and I could see how that would rub you the wrong way. But I was also rubbed the wrong way when Dan said "To be fair ... Not Every Woman [with a bi or experimental partner] worries her boyfriend or husband is going to leave her for a dude" implying that almost all will. I think that's extremely UNfair and inaccurate and hyperbolic. I thought that was all hexprone was ripping on, that Dan and NOHOMO were treating her as if she were homophobic while she was acting the opposite in a surface reading. I agree, there are nicer and clearer ways of voicing this disagreement, if I'm correct. I do agree that this was the wrong place for Dan's soapbox of the dangers of jealous paranoid homophobic women who can't deal with their partner's deviation from heterosexual stereotypes. There was no sign of that from Mrs NOHOMO, no need for Dan's guess, or his second paragraph PSA.

"I think he went out of his way to assure NOHOMO he had done nothing unforgivable by not disclosing sooner."
How do you interpret this sentence?
"I’m guessing you didn’t tell the wife because you didn’t want her to feel insecure or spend all her free time corresponding with advice columnists about whether her husband is secretly gay."
I think it sounds more like, "you didn't fuck up, it's your wife's fault you couldn't tell her." than "you fucked up, but it's really not a big deal."

If Dan would have only written the last two sentences of his answer, it would have been better. But even then, he's saying that she wasn't harmed when NOHOMO failed to correct her assumption. But if NOHOMO ever tells her the truth, she is going to ask why he let her assume incorrectly. He had either be prepared to admit his mistake, or claim he was doing it because he felt she'd like to experience a better fantasy threesome, or just don't tell ever. Definitely don't blame her, or say it's normal for couples to hide this sort of thing from each other so she shouldn't be hurt.

Maybe I could say it like.. It might be understandable to let everyone think that you're straight when you're actually a little bi or experimental... but is it a good thing to hide who you are to make other people more comfortable? A good thing to hide your bisexual history because it might make your spouse uncomfortable? Because while he had no obvious reason to disclose his history before now, he did not correct his wife's mistaken assumption, that is what he felt guilty about and why he wrote to Dan. And I don't think that was her fault, I think he needs to acknowledge it was a mistake or explore his hesitation further, since it's not obvious she's untrustworthy from the letter.


Phi @90, I still respectfully disagree. Dan was addressing the reason NOHOMO didn't tell her, he was not making any assumptions about Mrs NOHOMO. The unfortunate truth, as we discovered from statistics a while back, is that 63 percent of straight women said they would not date a bisexual man. And another unfortunate truth that Dan reveals is that a LOT of straight women are seriously homophobic to the point of writing to ask if their husbands are gay because they don't fit toxic male stereotypes. So, sorry but you do need to accept that most women would, in fact, find this particular sexual history problematic. It wasn't anything that Mrs NOHOMO said or did, it's just plain old statistics, which Dan is assuming influenced NOHOMO's decision not to tell her about this.

Is this a tangent? I agree that it is. He was not asking whether to tell his wife that he's bisexual, which he isn't, and which I would argue a bisexual person should do even if they suspect she may react badly -- that if she reacts badly, that's the trash taking itself out. Indeed, the subject of how most women might react seems irrelevant because everybody, Dan included, knows that this particular woman isn't like that. And NOHOMO didn't seem wracked with guilt that he needed Dan to absolve him of. Personally, I think it's likely that he didn't mention it because it never came up. He's straight; these experiences don't change that. If she had at any point asked him if he'd ever had a same-sex experience and he'd said no, then we could jump to analysing why someone might lie about this, etc. So was the tangent necessary? Not really. Was it offensive or inaccurate? No. Perhaps he included it for the benefit of other men who might recognise themselves in NOHOMO and wonder whether they need to tell their wives that they kissed a guy and didn't like it. (Katy Perry reference.) At any rate, I read zero judgement or condemnation of Mrs NOHOMO nor of all straight women -- just a dismayingly large proportion of them. If you're not one of them, be happy you're among the hashtag-not-all-straight-women and move on.


I want to give my guess of why NOHOMO kept his silence when Mrs NOHOMO made her mistaken assumption. Because Mrs NOHOMO badly surprised him by being into the virgin inexperienced aspect. So I think he should try to talk to her more about why that turns her on and what she is hoping for and whether she is going to be happy whether NOHOMO really enjoys the MM part or is uncomfortable and stops the MM part, and make sure she is ok stopping things if she gets uncomfortable too. And I would say that it's fine to have some privacy, but I think our private spots are signs of internal issues, not a reaction to untrustworthy people. Maybe a reaction to untrustworthy people of our past, that we should take care not to blame on our present partner.


BDF, "63 percent of straight women said they would not date a bisexual man"
That cannot be true! Ok maybe I am out of touch with how crazy most women are? Or is there something I'm not getting?


Why doesn't Dan publish these homophobic letters and rip on the homophobic women?

That is a crazy statistic that I can't really fathom. I'll have to look into it. Thanks.


Phi @93, I was unpleasantly surprised to read that too, but here it is, shared on a previous thread:
In light of this, as Dan says, it's completely understandable why he would have kept this information to himself. This is why I think people are off base when they are reading a judgement of Mrs NOHOMO into Dan's tangent.

Phi @92, there are really three questions. One, why did he never mention it in the nine years they've been together; two, why did he not mention it when she first proposed the "first time" MMF threesome; three, should he mention it now. Question one was addressed by Dan: he had statistical reason to fear (consciously or subconsciously) a negative reaction. Or he simply didn't think it was relevant. Question two, perhaps he was just caught off guard, and didn't want to throw a wet blanket over her "first time same-sex experience" fantasy, or kill the mood by mentioning a practical obstacle. Fantasy talk is just that and sometimes one isn't meant to take it literally. Then when the discussion progressed towards realising the fantasy, he saw how turned on she was by this "first time" aspect and didn't have the heart to tell her he'd already gone there. Let her think the Louboutins are brand new, what will it hurt?


NoCute @ 62 - I think the "positive way" in which they use the word gay is when they compliment one another for putting on clothes that match, or having made a decent soufflé.


The other link, also shared on that thread.


@16 and @32 I think you guys are pushing your own beliefs onto this one. I think it's more concretely three things:

1.) Straight women tend to define themselves more by being the sole or main source of attraction for their partners. They tend to be more threatened by a male partner who is into penises because it may mean that's no longer true. I think that's why many males tend to view lesbian feelings in their female partner as a chance for a threesome (more vagina!) while many females don't see a chance for a steamy MMF threesome - they see a threat to their position. This is of course due to deeply established cultural tendencies to judge women based on looks while men are judged on a wider range of factors.

2.) There's a lot more shame associated with being gay than being a lesbian. That's been true for hundreds of years and is only recently starting to shift back. As a result, men are more likely to be completely gay (not bi) but in the closet and posing as straight - women who are lesbians don't tend to suppress these tendencies as frequently because there's less societal shame. These fears and shame mean that women have a greater chance of being blindsided by a gay husband, which upends their life.

3.) Along that line, women tend to make less money and are therefore more vulnerable in the case of a relationship ending. It would therefore make sense that female partners would worry more about the impact of a orientation-reveal more than male partners. One of them has a lot more to lose.

So I think that it's more accurately that women's positions are threatened more by a partner who is into same gender interactions. This has to do with societal concepts about attractiveness and pay rate and a more concrete reason to fear that a straight-seeming husband may come out of the closet and upend lives.


@93 I'm surprised the number is that low. I'd guess that of that 37%, only about half would really be open when the rubber hits the road. People want to seem open but there's just this broad societal fear (which has some basis in reality) that bi rounds up to gay.

I think a more interesting question would be to ask women who are partnered five years or so what they would do if their partner expressed bi tendencies while affirming the relationship. I'd bet that you'd see those numbers flip flop with 2/3 willing to continue the relationship and one third saying "Peace, I'm out." Part of it is a fear of being hurt. We tend to avoid things we don't understand because we perceive them as threats


BDF, I have looked into biphobia a bit. I have not personally heard negative stereotypes or the denial of bisexuality from other women. I had a friend who was worried that his bi husband would want to be with a woman again. I told him it's the same as if hubby was attracted to redheaded and blonde men as well as brunettes, but he's decided that he wants to focus on just one person and forsake all others... just some of those other potential partners were women in his case. People can be happily monogamous even though they are still attracted to others, and my friend was a really awesome nice person so it made sense that his husband wanted to focus only on him. That seemed to make my friend happier and reassure him.. I think my friend was just insecure because they were about to adopt their kid so he was really kicking the tires. Point being, negative stereotypes like 'bisexuals have to have sex with both genders' come from men and women and can be reassured with patience better than fear or anger. I'd love to see Dan address some of the biphobic letters that he gets. Iirc Dan has been guilty of biphobia by saying that women are more likely to change their sexual orientation but men generally stay gay or straight, since his friends did the opposite of mine.. although he's toned it down in recent years.

It looks like the common prejudices are:
Straight women are averse to bi men.[1]
Straight men are averse (to a lesser degree) to bi women.[1]
Bi women seem averse to straight men?[2]
Bi men have no prejudices?

In my experience, bi men dislike that straight women aren't into other women, and will complain about it a lot, especially if they are upset about something else. But I've only dated one guy who was very attracted to both genders. Bicurious guys, who mess around with a guy but weren't really that into it, don't seem to mind if I'm not attracted to other women, I don't think anyone else ever complained about it.

It seems like inter-orientation relationships are just hard, not just because of negative stereotypes, but because feeling so differently about sex can strain a sexual relationship. Some people deal with the vast individual variation well, but I guess many people don't really believe that snowflakes all look completely different up close and want to believe their feelings are 'correct' and look for reasons to pathologize their partner's different feelings.


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