Savage Love

Kinked Gays

Comments

1

Ta dah!

2

Congrats TurbosDad on the firdt. Here's for the secnod! Who's thirtd?

3

Interesting answers Dan. Thanks. Especially the last one. Kinks and their origins, though these ideas do run counter to your idea of kink being hard wired from birth, doesn’t it? Or have I not understood your position.
I’d also suggest parental violence might be in that mix, especially if a homophobic father picks up his son is homosexual.

4

Yeah, "does it poorly on purpose so they won’t be asked to do it again" like my kids and dishes, or any other chore.

GAYSUB doesn't mention if the boyfriend has exercised the quid pro quo and fucked someone else; I'm guessing not. He might tell the BF to fuck someone else already so he can get his spanks without worry.

5

Whoops. Grammar mistake ....don’t they?

6

Interesting point @Lava. What makes the most sense to me: Something happens in our formative years, and it gets wired into our sexualities. I can't really understand the theory of kinks being hardwired from birth, BUT maybe it's to explain kinks that seem completely random?? Yet even then I'd say it was because of internalizing things from society/media.

Would def be curious to hear Dan clear this up :)

OH and I found that letter very helpful for understanding myself!! Thank you so much Dan, for being the sex therapist we all need <3

7

I really liked the letters and answers this week.

GAYSUB - "We’re “open” in the sense that he wants the option to be intimate with someone else if a connection happens and in turn he said he would be supportive of me being involved in my kinks."
It seems odd to me to jump to outsourcing kinks. I would expect a partner to ask me to be involved in his kinks before attempting to outsource them. Odd sex can be a real bonding experience, I would feel much better about a partner indulging kink outside the relationship after they had already tried with me, or at least asked me until I expressed some major reservations. And it might feel bad if I tried to indulge their kinks but they got sick of trying to make it work with me and decided that outsourcing would feel better.

I like to do things more the way Mr G prefers, find a good connection and explore it, if the relationship can bear the loss of my time and attention. I feel far less offended when I'm being replaced by a person who has a good attraction and healthy dynamic with my partner, than for a stranger or hypothetical. So I think that Dan's advice to find a good interesting dom, and then bring up your desire to fool around with that particular dom, was important.

TOP's letter was a lot to digest.

Three or four editing mistakes, please hire Nocute!

8

@7 re GAYSUB: You caught the same detail that I did.

My attention was drawn to the following sentence: "I’m worried that if I ask to go do something kinky it will ruin our relationship."

The LW doesn't say if the partner is willing to indulge his kinks directly; and if not, why not. (Or maybe that info was in the original letter but was redacted for the sake of brevity?)

This aspect of the LW's relationship remains unexplored. Why isn't his partner involved? (Or is the partner not being involved part of the LW's kink?) And since the partner isn't involved, yet the partner has granted hall passes, and the LW feels the partner "wasn't bluffing" about this...well, there is much about this that remains opaque.

Of course I'm not suggesting that the partner must be a participant therein, but it certainly stands out as a hanging thread.

9

I can certainly relate to Dan’s response to LW2 as a crossdresser/nonbinary person. In my case many of us are often assumed to be “submissive sissies” for the very same reasons gay men may also channel their supposedly guilt-ridden conscious.
(Just to clarify, none of us have nothing to be ashamed of. That “shame” stems from how society is constructed and the messages we get in an early age.)

As for Lava’s question re what comes first, the hardwire or the associated guilt, this can often prove elusive to distinguish and later life attempts to figure it out may be deceptive and inconclusive. In my case I noticed my attraction at the age of three, but wasn’t sure what it’s all about. First cross-dressing experience two years later was done in secrecy as I intuitively sensed that this is not what’s expected of me.

10

I have a vague inclination to wonder whether what LW1 fears is that he'll want kink within his relationship with whoever happens to be his partner, and perhaps he will. But repressing his needs won't make them go away. I'm not sure whether A1 slightly denigrated BF1 or not, but the conclusion is fine, for BF1's sake as well as LW1's (and the same with BF1's extras).

On one level, A2 is all very reasonable and gentle, but on another it seems to be normalizing and even romanticizing what we all ought to be trying to fix. Is this not exactly what we are supposed to be making better? Can we not even create small pockets where our boys have their first crushes without fear and dread? While premature "coupling" in middle school - or, gag, even earlier in some DS cases - has its negative aspects, isn't being able to be out in middle school a net plus to be spread? Why shut and lock door with [that’s not how it works for most of us.] instead of demanding from ourselves and others that we get a world that does work that way and then creating it? My motto for political alliances with larger groups, as I've probably indicated before, is (best heard in a Gabor accent) "Alvays order ze lobstuh, dahling." If we just give in and say this is how it's always going to be for even most of us, not only are we not ordering the lobster, we're paying for it.

Now, I'll admit I'm weird. I had plenty of fear and loathing in my life from almost every quarter - conversion therapy and all - but, while I was at war with almost everyone, the only people I never feared were my crushes. Mr Savage's picture seems almost nostalgic for when the general understanding of MM sex was of something that occurred between trade on top and f**s on the bottom. [The gay boy who feared being hurt by the person he was attracted to becomes the gay man who wants to be hurt—in a limited, controlled, consensual and safe way—by the man he’s with.] is not only way too generalized but way too romanticized, besides letting people like the couple's common (not mutual) woman friend feel oh, so sorry for the poor, inferiour gays. It also seems to essentialize true gays as subs, or at least doesn't explain the other side of the coin. Is the assertion that it's the boy who fears he'll beat up the boy he likes who grows up to become the mock abuser?

If all my pessimism turns out to be wrong and we ever get to the point where fetishizing being mock abused becomes, as I hoped recently, just a bit of historical role play, then it would be the sort of thing I could put in the same category as people who prefer a Bronte to Miss Austen - unfortunate or perhaps annoying but at least not sinister.

At any rate, now that Pride Month has come and gone without real-time in-person Pride, I shall, being convinced that my pessimism is more right than ever and that gay rights will be gone within the next two decades, take a moment to hope that everyone under the umbrella had as sunny a month as possible, even my mortal enemies.

11

Maybe if you're brave enough to come out as gay, you're more likely to be brave enough to share your kinks? Given the popularity of Fem Dommes, we have to assume there are a lot of straight men out there who are very kinky and into humiliation. I may be biased (okay, I am biased), but perhaps the cis-het crowd is just more repressed?

12

@1 TurbosDad: WA-HOOOOOOO!!!! Congratulations on scoring the FIRDT Award for this week's installment of Savage Love! Savor the glorious honors of leading the comment thread. :)
@2 fubar: WA-HOOOOOOOO!!! Congratulations on scoring the SECNOD Award for this week's Savage Love column, bask in the glow of second commenter, as initiated officially by nocutename. :)
@3 LavaGirl: WA-HOOOOOOOO!!!!! Congratulations, LavaGirl, on scoring the THIRDT spot in this week's Savage Love commentary. Savor the honors of being among earliest of commenters. :)

Is jack chandelier on hiatus?

13

I know I'm once again veering off-topic in this week's Savage Love, but thank you, Dan the Man and everyone, for offering Griz safe commentary refuge from so many glaring headlines. The world is getting crazier by the minute. I may seriously need to take a SLOG break until things finally come close to cooling down. Music, my beloved little Love Beetle, cats, movies, and all the wonderful people in my life are helping keep me sane and whole. bless you all. Cyber hugs, positrons, and VW beeps. :)

14

Hiatus? Nah. Just didn't really have anything to say about either of these letters this week..

15

I realize I could just say "first" but that seems silly. I feel comments should have more substance than that. Just my two cents..

16

Thanks Griz, there’s a prize for THIRDT spot, is it a ribbon? I’d like a SavageLove Ribbon..
Yes, it’s too much, the world. I’m thinking trump might take his criminal family and sneak off one night flying to Moscow or Egypt. He sure behaves like a / alleged/ spy, the wAy he cosies up to those fascist leaders.

17

GAYSUB sounds like he is suffering from anxiety. His brain is creating problems where there are no problems. The only thing standing between him and fulfilment is him, and his own worries, which sound unfounded. I think he had mental health issues before he started repressing himself. To the therapist?

Another question I had was whether he had asked his boyfriend to dominate him. Perhaps he just left that bit out, but isn't most subs' initial instinct to try to gently coax their partners toward GGG, only outsourcing if they refuse or can't manage to deliver? If Mr GAYSUB doesn't want to step up, or GAYSUB can't see him in that role, but feels anxious about what he seems to view as "cheating," he could involve his boyfriend by, say, going to fetish clubs together; Mr GAYSUB could order him to submit to other Doms there and provide aftercare, and get his flirt on meantime. Dan makes a great point about "expecting the unexpected" when it comes to feelings. If Mr GAYSUB gets jealous, that doesn't mean you've fucked everything up -- it just means you need to talk about it, and take things in baby steps until both of you feel comfortable. Respect any boundaries he may have, such as keeping the gory details to yourself or not coming home covered in bruises. Or bring him home roses after you've gone out for thorns. Most importantly, stop overthinking this and making it into a problem. Talk to your fella and believe what he tells you.

Dan did a good job explaining to TOP why so many gay men are into being dominated (perhaps Harriet is right and this is more "central to the gay experience" than I would have imagined), but skipped the question of why straight men aren't. The answer to that question is the flip side of the coin. Straight men are expected to conform to traditional expectations of masculinity, and those do not include being submissive. Because straight boys have much less to lose by revealing their crushes, they don't get used to having to risk outing themselves as outside the norm the way gay boys do. If a gay boy can out himself as gay, he can out himself as kinky, but straight boys who are kinky never learn this skill. It's highly likely their mutual friend has dated several straight men who'd love to be tied up and humiliated, but didn't want to risk their masculinity being called into question by asking. Why do you think pro Dommes are always in demand?

18

Please, bring back the copy editor from furlough. Please?

19

Maybe that’s .. an / alleged/ spy.. the GrammarPolice, Gp, are out already, going after Dan. And geez we’re only up to @18.

20

I thought correcting grammar was bad manners. Otherwise I’d never stop online.
Dan’s answers this week are great, and stimulate discussion. His mistakes mean he’s one of Us, and it’s hard, being grammatically challenged. Good to have famous champions.

21

Who's correcting grammar, Lava? Phi and I pointed out there are a lot of typos. This is journalism. A restaurant should get your food order correct, an online column should be free of typos. It's sort of the minimum standard of service. Dan isn't "one of us"; he's getting paid for this, we aren't.

22

At any rate, did I blame Dan? No, I blamed the copy editor because it is literally their job to fix errors made by their only-too-human writer colleagues.

23

L-dub 1... your relationship is either gonna work for you or it isn't. And the biggest factor right now is whether your negotiated agreement wrt/ outsourcing kink is real/is going to work. So, (Covid aside, not that anyone seems to care about that any more) stop wringing your hands and find out if it's real/is going to work. Good luck!

24

In another life, I’d like to have been a Pro Domme. What fun that looks, that game. I’d wear the gear, I like to dress up. I’d screen my clients, and live well.

25

I’d never inflict too much pain, the hard core ones would have to go elsewhere.

26

How sad that boys who are gay, have to hide their crushes. The violence is from the whole culture, saying it’s wrong. No wonder gay men eroticize violence.

27

@10 venn
"It also seems to essentialize true gays as subs, or at least doesn't explain the other side of the coin."

It seems to suggest that the imprinting Dan theorized occurs on top of some kind of more fundamental context. Perhaps hardwired 'seeds' that the experience waters, or perhaps some kind of developed psychological predisposition.

Less likely I'm thinking is an environmental effect: surely it would have been noticed by now if gay male doms grew up in healthy supportive subcultures.

Less unlikely, dom and sub could develop simply as different reactions to the very same environmental conditions.

"being convinced that my pessimism is more right than ever and that gay rights will be gone within the next two decades"

So you were unmoved from your pessimism a couple weeks ago by two conservative SCOTUS justices joining the most significant LGBTQ rights ruling in history?

@11 Karandora
"perhaps the cis-het crowd is just more repressed?"

Perhaps due to lacking practice (along the lines of Dan's saying about 'once you tell your mom you suck cocks you can do anything'). [Ah, I see I'm just dittoing BDF@17.]

@21 BiDanFan
I wasn't the least bit inconvenienced by the grammatical errors, and it would be one thing if it were only

"an online column"

but this mofo is internationally syndicated in print.

28

Venn @10: Sorry to read about your experience being the subject of fear and loathing, and even conversion therapy. Your pessimism is understandable, but I do hope it is alleviated come November, when the deplorable 30% finds itself alone and abandoned at the polls.

Karandora @11: There are plenty of straight men who are submissive, and into humiliation, feet, pain, sissification, and all manner of conventionally non-masculine things. They're "out" and visible within the kink scene. But men in general, gay or straight, are probably going to keep such proclivities under wraps in their public lives.

Happy Canada Day everyone!

29

Two different kinky parents have told me that they've found their children masturbating to cartoons that feature someone being tied up. One of the children was a 4-year-old girl, and the other was a 6-year-old boy. So while Dan's theory is interesting, I think maybe @11 Karandora has the real answer. :-)

30

@14 & @15 jack chandelier: You've got to admit, "FIRDT", established earlier on by Hunter and other commenters, is a pretty cool prize. :)

@16 LavaGirl: Ribbons? I hadn't thought of that. What a cool idea! The question is how to send it to you. Meanwhile, Happy THIRDT! :)

Dan the Man---what about ribbons for everyone hitting the numbers @1, @2, @3, @69, @100, and every following comment number ending in 69 and 00? My challenge would be in acquiring, printing, and distributing the ribbons.Many commenters here (like LavaGirl (Queensland, Australia), BiDanFan(UK), and fubar, and Helenka_also_a Canuck (Canada) are from around the world.

@28 fubar: Happy Canada Day! I caught up to your latest comment from last week's Savage Love. Once the international borders are open and we get the all-clear from Governor Jay Inslee (I don't know--bars open to at least 75% capacity?) I'll take you up on that drink. If you're ever in the States? :)

I am getting frustrated about the lack of compliance on CDC health recommendations at airports as well as those not taking the pandemic seriously. Sea Tac International Airport should be closed until further notice. Instead, any idiot coming from a highly COVID-19 infected state can come and spread the virus like wildfire.
Even Governor Inslee is wringing his hands. What to do when we have no President?
It's so bad now I think the West Coast should secede from TrumpReich, InKKKorporated.

31

I had a bad feeling when Trump was elected. The Supreme Court just decided that we have to start publicly funding religious schools. Most states help to fund private schools, and now have to fund religious schools. And if we try to stop funding private schools so that we don't have to fund (Christian) religious schools, the law now tells us to stuff it, taxpayers now have to fork over cash to religious anti-LGBT schools and that's just the way it is. I don't understand how this happened.

Is this some sort of "don't pay attention to the man behind the curtain, god will save you" sort of game to further discourage critical thinking and encourage passively tolerating political corruption?

32

Masculinity in our culture mostly starts off with violence, ie circumcision, and the path to being a male is set. Yes straight men eroticize violence too, they too are corralled into their line, how to be male. They see male violence all around, physical violence I mean. Though emotional and psychological violence would be interwoven.
I think Philo @31, culture wars are what got you Trump. Badly sourced public education and a fixation on a Christian god, acceptance of extreme capitalism etc etc.
It’s a time of major upheaval, and one’s gotta keep one’s head while the masses are losing theirs.

33

Electoral College got you Trump. And our leaders are like trump, political corruption in front of our eyes.. they don’t care. Look, the US President gets away with his. Fascism is on the rise, just when humanity should work together to fight climate change. Fucking idiots, humans.

34

Mr Curious - This may have been the wrong year for the ruling, which is the sort of thing that could push those who don't really like Mr T to bite the bullet. I've already mentally written the script several times for how this could play out. I could even see a federal constitutional amendment passing.

I would think that the close of A2 would have been better the other way around. The man who wants to be hurt in a controlled way by the man he's with was likely a boy who feared being hurt by the object of his affection. But wasn't the man who wants to call his husband anti-gay slurs very likely just another such boy?

35

I also think LW2 should perhaps look into meeting gays with more imagination if he keeps finding ones with this particular kink. Nobody should have to feel obligated to become comfortable with using slurs. When I was socially active, I met plenty of gays with plenty of kinks, but this one I hardly ever saw from either end. The closest I can recall in a personal encounter was someone who started using female-coded vocabulary that shut down proceedings then and there.

36

As I understand the ways that our eroticism heals us, is we combine it with imprinted events/ experiences from our childhoods, /and in our childhood as Coryleah @29 points out/ when we were vulnerable, to master those experiences. We bring pleasure in to tame those experiences, and to integrate them. Own them in a way.
Say a young man, a gay young man, his father knows it. Smells it on his son, and wants to get it out of him. Over years his anger, mixed with his love, will confuse and shame his son. Violence used, and though at the time it’s administered, mostly fear is in this young man’s heart, by combining this behaviour with his eroticism, he’s throwing his father off, by bringing the behaviour into his erotic play.
I’m not suggesting all kinks around hitting, tying up etc, develops this way. Sex is with us as young kids, we link it from any early age to all sorts of stimuli. It’s a thread to our younger, less constrained, self.

37

What is female- coded vocabulary, Mr Venn? And why don’t I know it.

38

@34 venn
"This may have been the wrong year for the ruling, which is the sort of thing that could push those who don't really like Mr T to bite the bullet. I've already mentally written the script several times for how this could play out. I could even see a federal constitutional amendment passing."

That's all reasonable conjecture, however:

I don't think the ruling moved the needle on Trump's horrific polling.

But if it did improve the monster's chances, that could actually be good, because he's polling so badly now that many speculate (not me, I don't think he's psychologically capable of this) that he'll pull out of the race and then we'll be stuck with whoever else the GOP runs crushing senile gropey old Joe Biden.

Trump is shitting the bed on so many fronts (the pandemic, unemployment, the Black Lives Matter uprising, supporting Russia while Putin pays for US soldiers to be murdered) that I think people are too overloaded to care about that ruling.

Your concern is understandable, since it's abominable that the human rights of gay people are insulted by having to be won democratically, but US Constitutional amendments are very difficult to pass, and the polling trends are encouraging.

According to
https://news.gallup.com/poll/257705/support-gay-marriage-stable.aspx
over the last quarter century support for SS marriage has trended upward from 27% to 63%. Most encouraging for the future, support for gay marriage among people age 18-29 is 83%, and age 30-49 is 68%. That is the future!

According to
https://news.gallup.com/poll/1651/gay-lesbian-rights.aspx
93% support gay employment non-descrimination (up from 56% in 1977).

39

I’d like to offer an additional angle on Karandora @ 11 assessment as to the popularity of femme doms and the assumption that gay men may be more courageous to explore their kink since they already had to come out, something that BDF @ 17, Coryleah @ 29 and Lava’s several musings have also touched on.

While it is true that coming out is a process that gives you a life time experience, the vast majority of submissive gay men explore and indulge their submissive tendencies with other gay men, hence placing both or more participants in a more or less leveled starting point. They could find each other years ago, let alone nowadays in the internet age.

Straight men inclined to submit to women had a hard time realizing their fantasies due to social contrast not only because they had to admit “inferiority” to women to some degree or another, but also because their girlfriends/wives were not likely to be ready for such an unheard of move due to their own socially imposed status and would have freaked out or simply not knowing how to approach this. This is why pro femme doms still flourish while meeting the demand.
In my earlier days as a “cross dresser” I wasn’t yet fully aware/willing to let go of my submissive tendencies, yet assuming that no woman will ever accept me as I show off my lovely pink vintage full slip, let alone walk around in a black lace teddy ensemble along with fishnet stockings, black patent high heels and a long see through black lace robe, I ended up visiting few pros went along with some submission yet mostly in order to be able to do my stuff.

Things are getting better nowadays. Younger folks are more open and accommodating, women aren’t that reluctant to take the lead, and all involved have readily available info and communities to rely on.

40

Venn-I meant "construct" (second line in third paragraph)

41

CMD @39: "my lovely pink vintage full slip [...] walk around in a black lace teddy ensemble along with fishnet stockings, black patent high heels and a long see through black lace robe".

Gulp!

42

Commending CMD's wardrobe @39.

43

fubar- Thanks and rest assured, I didn't take any way other than a compliment.

44

Venn @34: "the man who wants to call his husband anti-gay slurs"
Which man is that, Venn? There's a man whose husband calls his other partners anti-gay slurs at their request. There's no evidence that man wants to do the same to his husband. But Curious already addressed this paradox @27: "Dom and sub could develop simply as different reactions to the very same environmental conditions." One young person feels they are not in control of their life, so they eroticise this feeling of helplessness. A different young person feels they are not in control of their life, so they eroticise the idea of taking control over others. One of the young children in post @29 might be identifying with the cartoon character who is tied up, the other with the character who did the tying.

I have to disagree with your assessment of the direction in which gay rights are going. That is a genie that won't be put back in the bottle, despite the efforts of some bigots. Those bigots in charge, such as the ones in Poland, will likely not last another two decades. The direction is toward progress, at least on that front. (On that note, this weekend in London there is a march to support trans people who are indeed threatened by the repeal of gender self-ID legislation, backed by high-profile TERFs such as JK Rowling. I will be there marching on their behalf. Still though, we are moving in the right direction as evidenced by Graham Linehan's being booted off Twitter for transphobic comments. The tide is turning.)

Lava @36, my guess is that he started referring to his male parts as female parts.

As for where kinks come from, this topic comes up regularly and there does not seem to be a simple answer. And why should there be, human sexuality is complicated. It is a combination of inborn predisposition, eroticising influences, cultural references with which the nascent kinkster identifies and incorporates into their fantasy world. Overanalysing feels like an attempt to pathologise. Some people are kinky, get over it! Or to quote a long-gone beer slogan, why ask why?

Curious @38, thanks for those numbers.

CMD @39, yes exactly. Not only are men socialised but women are too. Gay men are asking men to dominate them, which they've been socialised to do, but women have not been socialised to be dominate and this is confusing for many. They may also have the same expectations of men as the men do; we all receive the same programming. If a man asks a man to dominate him, he may find it an easy ask. Most women wouldn't and it would only take one or two women reacting badly to such a request to send a straight male sub scurrying back to the closet. Thank goodness there are sites like Fetlife where people can lead with their kinks, rather than getting to know someone first, then risking rejection when revealing this part of themself. (I would note that people with your interest have had the Rocky Horror Picture Show as an acceptable outlet for expressing it since the mid 1970s. Thank you, Richard O'Brien, Tim Curry and company!)

45

I agree with Karandora @11 - I think if gay men seem kinkier than straight men, it's because gay men have more practice at being out. Also, perhaps, because there's more social support for talking about what you like than there is in heteronormative culture.

I'm straight, and I'm kinkier than hell (a submissive ABDL), and I remember in my college days hanging around with gay friends who'd chatter away happily in the computer lab about their assorted leathers and chains and daddies and boys, and sometimes they made teasing remarks in my direction about how shocking it must be for little old vanilla me to overhear them talking about such things.

I never told them that they were as tame as kittens compared to my fantasy life, because in those days I never told anybody, I was too fuckin' scared back then. Admitting you're different is hard. I did eventually get up the nerve to tell a friend or two, though, and then five, and then twelve, and it got easier every single time. I think anybody who's come out of the closet has already broken through the first barrier, and the first one's the hardest.

46

Happy Canada Day!

47

Yes CMD, No Shame. No Shame. Though it must be hard to push against the judgements.
Yes, it is getting easier. My youngest @22 has no issues re his own or anyone else’s sexuality and how he presents his masculinity is loose. It’s encouraging, and marriage equality has made same sex attractions, Legal.

48

Ms Lava - Ms Fan is correct. If you listen to the podcast, the current week has an example in which Mr Savage mentions a gay friend who was nonplussed when part of his anatomy was deliberately other-gendered. In my case, I broke what was rather a good scene going and calmly pointed out that, even if I could acquire such a part, it would quite ruin my mood, and suggested that he resume the festivities with someone more anatomically compatible to his wishes. I was rather pleased with myself afterwards for Using My Words (as he was rather larger), which I didn't always do, and thought it what I am tempted to call a CMM Moment, standing for "Call me Moi," which, for those of the young persuasion or with memories able not to clog themselves with trivia, was the opening sentence of Miss Piggy's Guide to Life.

49

Mr Bar - Thank you for your earlier sentiment, by the way. I suspect that 30% may be enough - who, of those who live in cities in swing states, will be able or willing to queue for six to eight hours to vote for Mr Biden? I cling to the hope he'll have to drop out before the convention.

50

Mr Curious - Do you see marriage as the sign of full capitulation or the easily-broken-off tip of the iceberg? While there are some for whom marriage equality is the one thing that takes them the longest to reach, I've seen more of the other sort, those who, say, either think they're giving us something that will do us more harm than good, or have a relation likely to have a same-sex wedding, attending which constitutes the full extent to which the "supporter" intends to engage in that person's life.

Part of what put me off the "tolerant right" was the way they tended to compress All Issues Gay into marriage and cite high support for marriage equality as shortcut for gays' having Nothing to Worry About.

I'm happy to hope my poll was an outlier, but it showed support for marriage in the 15-24 group as lower than most older groups, though still above 50%, and, alarmingly, youth support for the iffily-framed "gay rights" at UNDER HALF.

At the moment, my best guess is that the provocateurs have struck some gold by taking the line that "your PARENTS support gay rights", in combination with framing certain increases in visibility as ENFORCED (a la Prof Peterson and his cohorts).

As usual, I'd be quite happy to be wrong, but I do have an unlucky knack for turning out to be Cassandra.

51

Ms Fan - I could see being apprehensive of admitting SS affection being central, but not wanting to be called slurs and hurt in a controlled-for-a-positive-outcome environment. I also think the process slightly more convoluted for the slur-user than the slur-welcomer. But at any rate, my point that Mr Savage's sentence should have been the other way around still seems sound, as he invited the inference that A always leads to B instead of sometimes to B and sometimes to C (as well as sometimes not to anything).

As we all seem agreed that (except for those who are invested in maintaining or, worse, romanticizing gay shame) we want to minimalize the need to eroticize fear and dread, my mind keeps running back to the LW from some time ago, whose husband or boyfriend had begun spontaneously calling him anti-gay slurs, which he didn't like. While, to his credit, Mr Savage established the caveat that LW was being supplied with plenty of the sort of sex he did like, Mr S gave that LW a distinct nudge to go along with it, inviting the inference that not doing so would have been very close to if not actually non-GGG. This week's letter had a blood-freezing bit when the current LW wrote that he's getting better at calling his BF names. Nobody not already inclined should have to get better at something that originates from a circumstance that we're supposedly trying to remedy. And this detail is really making me fear again for the former LW, as, if that couple are still together, by now they're probably having almost exclusively slur-calling sex, and I really don't know what to hope for that LW. The last thing it seems we ought to want to do would be to try to push onto someone an acquired taste for something that ought to be reduced.

As for rights in general, well, I'll be happy to be proved wrong, but I've seen so many people recently who used not to care either way who have moved firmly into the Anti column that I don't know if I can be moved to a positive outlook. Good luck with your march, though, especially in keeping distance.

52

@50 venn
"Mr Curious - Do you see marriage as the sign of full capitulation or the easily-broken-off tip of the iceberg?"

First, only the first of the two URLs I quoted from were specific to gay /marriage/; in other words, I think that the trends are just as encouraging for gay rights not specific to marriage.

But to answer your question, I think it's a minor issue for some who came to support gay marriage, and a major one for others.

I think for many of the worst bigots, their greatest concern is WRT adoption rights for gay people (for reasons I'm sure I need explain to you less than anyone on Earth, venn). (As we saw in my 2nd URL @38, support for that increased from 54% to 61% between 2009 and 2012.)

(Another big group of opponents are of course those theists who insist on conflating 'church marriage' with 'civil marriage'; while of course the church kind is just an optional ritual.)

Personally I was even more cynical when the right to gay marriage was preceded by the right to serve in the US military (and kill and die for a likely unjust cause; that horrible 'right' is extended to non-citizens even WITH CITIZENSHIP AS PAYMENT...so how valuable is that 'right' really). And personally, never having wanted kids, and having been very irritated by the hoops to jump through to get divorced, I valued the institution of marriage so little (while I of course do acknowledge a societal value in a form of stability for raising kids) I used to joke sarcastically with my gay friends that if straight people have to get married then everyone should have to.

I think I've just talked myself into thinking that for most of the enemy it was a big deal.

What really strikes me as odd, is that on the issue that I think much more significant, that of the recent SCOTUS decision on employment rights, (as I wrote @38) 56% supported it way back in 1977 (and now has soared to 93% so even conservative justices joined the decision).

I guess religious poisoning has been playing a big role in gay marriage support lagging gay employment rights support.

"Part of what put me off the "tolerant right""

The concept of their 'tolerance' itself is utterly repugnant.

"I'm happy to hope my poll was an outlier, but it showed support for marriage in the 15-24 group as lower than most older groups, though still above 50%, and, alarmingly, youth support for the iffily-framed "gay rights" at UNDER HALF."

I'm not sure what poll you're citing, but one explanation for young people being more repressive might be the fact that three-quarters of fundamentalist kids get brainwashed to be like their parents. Perhaps the improvement in older demographics comes from them overcoming their indoctrination once they escape their ignorant parents and reality can wash the worst of the stink of religion off them.

@51 venn
"I've seen so many people recently who used not to care either way who have moved firmly into the Anti column"

Are you talking about the (IIRC) elderly bridge players you teach? (The challenges of age brings the opportunity for growth but sadly some instead get bitter and mean.)

53

Here's hoping Mary Trump's book detailing the ugly truth about her corrupt-as-fuck uncle's currently stinking up the Oval Outhouse gets leaked out if not published. I understand John Bolton has plenty of dirt to send the Der Gropenfuhrer entire Evil Empire to prison for life.
Otherwise, Griz is still up for Trumpty Dumpty's Great Fall at Mar-a-Lunatic as it becomes a desolate swampy wasteland, sinking into the Atlantic. May Trumpty Dumpty get eaten by giant, mutant alligators.

54

Venn @51, "my mind keeps running back to the LW from some time ago, whose husband or boyfriend had begun spontaneously calling him anti-gay slurs, which he didn't like." Apologies, I have forgotten that letter and thought you were talking about the more recent one from the man who was unnerved by his husband's degrading a sub who was giving him a blowjob. At least there is no evidence that today's LW wants to be called anti-gay names specifically. I can picture name calling that does not involve homophobic slurs. Would that pass your FTWL test? I agree with you on the man who did not want to be called names during sex, let alone homophobic ones. His partner should have respected his wishes on that one; perhaps they could have agreed on some mutually agreeable terms of endearment that he could call out in the heat of passion. I don't know though; to draw a parallel, plenty of self-respecting feminist women like being called sluts and whores, misogynistic terms for sure, during sex. I don't see any difference between that and eroticising anti-gay slurs as these guys are doing. (As a non-submissive, I'm with you in that I would not enjoy being on the receiving end of such talk myself.)

55

BDF, re sluts and whores, I keep wanting to draw a parallel between the prevalence of female subs and male doms and how that fits into misogyny, also. But it's fundamentally different with gay men, both dom and sub have been subject to the same stereotypes. (And I'm reminded I have no knowledge of kinky gay women at all). For instance, it's self humiliating for a gay man to call his partner homophobic slurs, but not for straight partners to use gendered slurs. Maybe that's part of what Venn is pointing out. But then again, it seems more dangerous for men to humiliate women in play, because it might bolster the stereotypes of weaker women and reluctance to pay us as nice of salary..

I also think that if I started saying that female subs bolstered misogyny, I'd get a bunch of angry women disagreeing. If they don't feel like they are being disempowered, if they make sure they are paid and treated just as well as men in real life, it should be fine.. but women are still paid less than men for the same jobs, so I really don't get why women want to celebrate a still-existing power imbalance.
https://www.nysscpa.org/news/publications/the-trusted-professional/article/woman-who-switched-to-man's-name-on-resume-goes-from-0-to-70-percent-response-rate-060816

I think a lot of submissive women might believe that we have so much gender equality that submitting during sex is a sign of strength rather than weakness, since the movement seemed to happen along with greater gender equality.. This could apply to gay kinksters as well.. I've told myself that female subs just want men to do all the work, and it's a subversive way of gaining power, since there's nothing I can do about it, I don't really want to shame anyone out of their sexual preferences. I can speak out about unequal pay without shaming kinksters for liking what they like, though..

56

Venn, do you think that Dan should have written more about current bullying? I thought it was nice that he wrote about something fairly universal, fear of rejection, as well as fear of violent rejection. He didn't quite seem to say that it's hard for everyone to admit that we are attracted to someone and want to be vulnerable to them, at first.. Maybe it's a woman thing, to be sexually attracted to someone and really fear getting pregnant and where else those feelings may lead.. but men in turn have years of child support or child rearing to fear as well as other masculine vulnerabilities.. I thought it was sad that Dan pointed out that homophobic violence was so prevalent, but I don't know what to suggest.. introducing some LGBT-friendly materials in early elementary, probably. And greater punishment for hate speech maybe.. I can't believe the Supreme Court is funneling money to anti-LGBT schools now, they are going the Wrong Way in education..

And also I should point out that I like subby stuff, not name calling but other stuff. But it's not a strong need, I don't really like it unless it's with someone I trust, and I probably like dom stuff more. So while I wouldn't identify as submissive, I don't feel like it's shameful, more dangerous unless you're SSC.. but it's hard to be sane when inundated with insane stereotypes..

57

CMD, I think your lovely description @39 inspired me. I have needed a new bra, and needed to go thru the whole getting fitted routine, a fine process when you’re twenty.
While out today I passed a lingerie shop and though I knew it was dangerous to enter, enter I did. Two new lacy covered bras with matching knickers/ buy two get one free!/ one black and one pink, one random. So thank you. I gave myself permission to indulge. In lingerie.

58

The knickers were three for price of two. Forty dollar bras, never have I paid that price before. Had to depart quickly before I spied some other delights.

59

Phi @55
I’m not sure that assigning degrees of political correctness to kinks and preferences is doing anyone justice. Of course, we are all influenced by gender, status, pay, whatever but so are all other aspects of our lives. Sex and kinks often provide us with ways to vent and navigate some of this, work it out in fun and often also healing ways.
Men who submit to women for whatever reason/s do not deserve extra credit, and women submitting to men don’t deserve extra scrutiny nor possible shaming. Same goes to inter racial relationships, and so on. (I'm not saying you're guilty of doing any of it, just trying to get my point across.)

Kinky gay men are not all equal despite the supposedly better pay you mentioned, and their dynamics may also be influenced by factors such as pay, education, social status, etc. Same goes to gay kinky women, who do exist, and their different degrees of intensity be it physical, emotional or verbal.

In the last paragraph you wonder who’s on top in a male Dom/female sub relationship, yet this notion is not limited to this specific dynamic and can be viewed differently by participants in most if not all D/s relationships of any kind.

60

Lava-delighted and honored to be an inspiration.

61

Funny, CMD, it took you to take all the judgeY energy around lingerie, away, for me. I didn’t even know I had it till I got in that shop. The young woman was beautiful, and now I know my size.. the tag had faded on my last one, which will get thrown over an electricity wire somewhere, after washing.
/ Difficult waters into which you tread, Philo @55.
Where is our Erica, hope she’s ok.
For a woman wanting D/s in the bedroom only, it has nothing to do with gender equality or any political analysis, to me. It’s about yin and yang, masculine and feminine principles, being acknowledged, sexually.
Also with cis people, added bonus of their bodies lending themselves to the dynamic, the game, the play, the kink..
Full time D/s dynamics, from the outside I think he better be bloody fair cause I sure wouldn’t hand over my power twenty four seven.

62

@55 your politics don't have any relevance to other people's kinks. it just doesn't matter how you'd like the world to be. if some women get turned on by being called demeaning names, that's more important than the 2nd and 3rd degree political implications argued by an internet moralist. and they get to make that decision without your opinion mattering at all.

the world isn't a nice place. we didn't evolve from nice creatures. we're going to want things that conflict with our ethics, because human beings are as much untamed beasts as they are moral creatures. to take that away, is to take away an essential part of what it is to be human. you can't do that. and it is wrong to try.

63

Lava @57, congratulations on the new bras. Shops have opened here but not fitting rooms, which would make bra buying impossible. (And the shop staff were not wearing masks, which I found perplexing. Are they afraid of covid or not?) Unfortunately BDF has moved into the un-pretty bra buying phase of her life, with perimenopause hormones giving me boobs so tender that all they can tolerate is a sports bra. And ironically I am still wearing teen size.

Phi @55, I have many thoughts on this topic and will come back when I have time to put into them.

64

Venn @49: "I cling to the hope he'll have to drop out before the convention."

Even Fox News is floating the idea that Trump may drop out, rather than meet his Waterloo. But the peril is that the GOP may then anoint someone who is electable.

Regardless, it seems unbelievable that mail-in balloting won't be universally required, given the current and foreseeable abysmal state of the pandemic.

65

Phi @55: I can assure you that heterosexual D/s has nothing to do with IRL misogyny. I know a good number of female subs, and outside of the dungeon, they are all bad ass and fully realized human beings. Sexual submission is part of a power exchange dynamic, and the partners serve one another. Even in 24/7 D/s relationships, the sub will defer only to the Dom, and not the world at large.

BDF @63: "Are they afraid of covid or not?" Evidently, they're not afraid of giving covid to you, and to others, which wearing a mask would mitigate.

66

One Dom can still represent the male/ patriarchal world at large, fubar. @65. I don’t think anyone assumes a 24/7 female sub is submitting to all males. What a strange comment.

67

If you’d had babies and breastfed, Fan, your breasts would have got bigger. Thing is, you’d have been responsible for the babies.

68

‘... have gotten bigger.’ Oh. Dear. Not my week. Again.

69

.. if I win, pass on the win to the next person. I’ve got a ribbon already this week.
Are Patriarchy and Misogyny synonymous?
Re 24/7 hetero D/s relationship, I would fear too much dependence on another, that over time.. years maybe, autonomous thought and action is completely taken away. Then what when the Dom dies, or leaves.
The men in these dynamics would need to be developed enough to leave room for the women to retain their inner core of vitality. Lot of trust involved.

70

Lava @67, since I am in the UK, "would have got bigger" is perfect grammar. Yeah, I wasn't that desperate. A boob job would have been a lot less drastic, haha. Also, my boobs probably would have reverted to handfuls once the breastfeeding was over, as my sister's did. One can only do so much when genetics are not on your side.

I haven't had a lucky number for a while so I will take the riches!

71

CMD, I think we agree completely, as often happens with you.. I'm pretty sure that we'd agree that in a healthy kinky relationship both people feel equally powerful or satisfied. I'd like to add that while no preference is wrong or shameful, we do need to express our feelings responsibly. And talking about it calmly and politely can help make that easier. I like to talk about subjects I have little confidence in, to learn and explore polite ways to express myself and gain confidence in my understanding of others.

Fubar, Yes, I know that healthy het D/s does not express real misogyny or misandry.. I'm sorry, I thought that I was clear that you majorly helped to show me this. And NoCute has shown me that a submissive woman can also be very sane, responsible and friendly to women and generally well adjusted so far as I can tell, and she used to write a lot. However, I don't think that all kinksters are as responsible or healthy as y'all are (see Phil's post). I would never want to hurt someone's healing process and I'm aware that sometimes kink is healing, helps reinforce the line between mock and real abuse, between bdsm and vanilla, between reality and play. My point is that kink can be abused to blur the line between play and reality, to normalize bdsm as safe as vanilla, to pretend to mock abuse someone we might really disparage, or pretend to mock submit while harboring real self-esteem problems. So I think it's pretty important to be able to discuss these dangers calmly. To flesh out what "SSC" actually is, how it makes bdsm different from real abuse.

Also, a dom who solicits women to give up their power in bed seems far more dangerous in my culture than a sub who encourages men to lead. Maybe logically they have the same effect on any observers, but I feel more sympathy for playing with self-hatred than with other-hatred.. This may be why I don't feel you as a het male dom are genuinely dangerous but only playing responsibly with bdsm, I think you may actually be careful not to encourage a woman to want to give up her power, but you're willing to play that way because you enjoy the appreciation, from what I've gathered.

72

Once the heat is off, I hope US citizens who have taken this virus seriously, sue those who didn’t with authority, who didn’t. From Trump and his yes people, Murdoch and his lying Fox News, onwards. Stay safe.

73

I’m out. Too tired. Too many mistakes.

74

Lava @69: "Are Patriarchy and Misogyny synonymous?" I would say no. Patriarchy is the way society is structured to hold men and women to gender-based roles which, on the whole, assign power to men. Misogyny is bigotry against women. One can benefit from, or be oppressed by, the patriarchy without being a misogynist oneself. So one is structural and the other individual.

75

Ms Phile - You're quite right. That's why, back when M?? Harriet tried to make the two comparable, I wasn't having it, as one is out-group name-calling and the other is in-group. If male A calls female B the Barbara Bush word (we recall when Mrs B referred to Ms Ferraro as something that "rhymes with rich" and then later claimed she meant "witch") to B's liking, well, there may be dynamics to it as you've pointed out or it could be as benign as Mx Wanna suggests, but in either case or anything in between there are two distinct groups. If male C calls male D [rhymes-with-maggot], well, then what is C? And it goes right back into the Mediterranean "Tops are still Men" direction, just to instance one thing. I could go on, but you already saw the point.

76

Mr Bar - No; I'm hoping Mr Biden drops out.

77

I forget who it was who suggested that gay boys are having their formative experiences with other gay boys, but to the extent that's true that's fairly recent. Lots of young MM doesn't stick - and not just in settings like prep schools (a la Another Country, which I mention to praise the way Mr Firth's character Judd manages an excellent pivot from his knee-jerk reaction to Bennett's certainty that his youthful MM has stuck by feeling "terribly sorry" and then in his next sentence retracting "that was patronizing and unforgivable"). In my time, a lot of gays skipped youthful MM fooling around because they knew they'd take it seriously. When it was dangerous to get caught with another boy, gay high school juniors and seniors, at least in higher suburban areas, tended to seek out men.

I was going to go deeper into this, but the complications of gay-straight/ish pairings as opposed to gay-gay and both opposed to gay-bi are too great to manage just now.

78

Mr Curious - No; my bridge players are largely super seniors, and the worst I perceive in some of them is a tendency to treat gays like pets.

The people I've seen moving firmly into the Anti column are mostly younger and mostly thought that SSM would end the discussion, the gays would go get married and they wouldn't have to hear any more about it. Alas, it was not the end of what they had to hear. There are various different straws that have broken the backs of particular camels, but it could have been anything for people who were always going to blame the gays once they perceived us as not all fading away and leaving them in peace.

79

LavaGirl @61 Thanks for thinking of me; I'm fine and generally reading SL comments but haven't had much to say these days. Weird times.

"For a woman wanting D/s in the bedroom only, it has nothing to do with gender equality or any political analysis, to me. It’s about yin and yang, masculine and feminine principles, being acknowledged, sexually."

I appreciate that you said "to me," but wanted to say that people have a wide variety of reasons for being interested in D/s.

For me, it's not about yin and yang. In or out of the bedroom (and I've done both, with different people) it's more about exploring the intricacies of power dynamics. The sub isn't running things, but the sub's desires do play a role; the dom isn't always providing a service, but that can be part of the picture too. In other words, how care-taking and pleasure-seeking mesh between two people who eroticize pain and control.

"Full time D/s dynamics, from the outside I think he better be bloody fair."

Nah, I'm much less interested in "fairness" than in excitement and energy. Once everyone's needs are met (air, food, shelter, safety, belonging, self-esteem) -- and assuming no one feels trapped -- the two people's wants don't have to be balanced fairly.

80

Fubar, I do not mean to insult, I'm sure you can be genuinely dangerous and really make someone's life hell if you want to.. I just don't think that you're misogynistic about it.

Venn, What really sticks out to me are the dynamics of a gay sub asking a partner to top him, a top's feelings could be easily disregarded. I feel more comfortable with authoritarian roles if we are comfortable switching roles as well (while off duty, not as a demotion). It seems like a homosexual or even bisexual man who liked homophobic topping is going to feel confused.

How about this etiquette.. man A asks man B for humiliation, but makes sure to show man B that he can advocate for queer issues and is proud of his orientation and would be happy to switch. If man B doesn't see these indications of sane consent, he can check by asking man A if A would actually like to be degraded by a straight homophobe in real life. And if man B gets affirmative confirmation of self esteem issues, he changes the sexual relationship into a supportive friendship until man A can get his act together, else proceed cautiously. If man B first asked man A to endure humiliation or just started humiliating A out of the blue, I'd say that man A should seriously consider dumping man B in self defense, even if man A is a sub. Because I think it's far more polite to ask for abuse than to ask to abuse, although both are weird, and because a homophobic homosexual sounds dangerous. Finally, man A should expect man B to dislike using the slurs of youth and that this is not so much of a gift as a request for man B, and feel some need to reassure man B that he is very respected and not judged badly even if man A is fear-attracted to homophobia, and reward the effort appropriately by switching or some preference of man B. It makes my head hurt to think about gay dynamics, but I tried.

81

@71 you don't know anything about me. yet you judge and attempt to shame me in your desire to tell others what it is ok for them to think and do and what it is not ok for them to think and do. you can't conceive of anything bigger or different from what you think. you are nothing more than a small minded member of the thought police, shaming into the void. it is weak and pathetic.

82

@80 It sounds as though you don’t understand how people just want to get kinky with their partner without being robots and suffering through an endless predefined scripting of their passion.

Both dom and sub (no matter their gender) setting limits is an accepted part of playtime, setting out each and every second of each other’s interaction is robotic and being controlling on a whole other level.

Part of a dom sub relationship is trust - eg trusting your partner to know and act out your secret taboo fantasies even if others may think them misogynistic or misandristic or make them appear weak, trusting that person to “hurt” or dominate you just enough to get you to subspace without going too far, and without controlling their actions beyond the hard and soft limits, the dom trusts that their sub will use their safe word if things get too far and respects that without any demands to continue even if they are still horny and both trust that they will switch to aftercare mode if their safeword is used.

Having the PC thought police commenting on and setting out rules for interactions between two consenting adults in their own space is not constructive.

83

Venn, Now that you've gotten me started.. there is another layer in this soup of gender and orientation.. There are some names for degrading men by comparing them to women, like sissy, and if a woman top were asked to use those words to humiliate her male partner, it strikes me as very similar to a gay top asked to use homophobic language. Still not quite the same though.

84

@83 “Sissy” is not a degrading term comparing a man to a woman it means a particular dom-sub play involving gender-role reversal and role-play elements - a consenting man is dressed in women’s lingerie to satisfy their consenting partner(s) usually it includes highly exaggerated, non-realistic, stereotypes of being used as a sex object to satisfy the partners. Many straight, bi, and gay couples enjoy this type of dom-sub play without it being degrading, although consensual non-consent play can include it as part of humiliation.

85

LavaGirl @66: Usually, I skip over the drivel you post, but "I don’t think anyone assumes a 24/7 female sub is submitting to all males. What a strange comment" got stuck in my craw.

I wrote no such thing.

86

Venn @76: That's what I thought you meant, at first. But I've been reading about Trump dropping out, and that's where my mind went. I really have no idea of the possibilities should Biden drop out. The world has changed since he emerged as presumptive.

87

Phi @80: No insult taken. And while I aspire to be dangerous, I have no wish to make anyone's life hell... unless said hell is sexy spanko fun.

88

Phi @71: I missed this post as I scanned the updates. Kink can certainly be abused. It's rife. I'll try to gather my thoughts and give yours a worthy reply tomorrow.

89

@69 LavaGirl: WA-HOOOOOOO!!!! And thank you for passing on the Lucky @69 honors to BiDanFan @70. May you continue to bask in good health and fortune. Hugs, positrons, and vW beeps :)
@70 BiDanFan: WA-HOOOOOOOO, BiDanFan!!! As LavaGirl has requested, good fortune in way of this week's Lucky @69 Award is yours. Savor the much-envied delectable honors. Big hugs, positrons, and VW beeps :)

90

Just about end of July4th here. Cold night ahead.
Happy Independence Day, USA.

91

@Philophile: "I've told myself that female subs just want men to do all the work, and it's a subversive way of gaining power"

I'd say subs put far more work into sex than most vanilla women. They're willing to go further lengths to please their partners. Same is true of doms. Kinky people in general place a higher priority on sex.

Submissiveness is definitely a subversive way of gaining power, but that comes from what they are willing to do for a dom.

92

Thanks Griz, kookaburra hugs back to you.
I’ve had a few good wins the last first weeks, and the ribbon this week. Got much saved up good luck, and now with my new bras and knickers.
I’ve been thinking about the ribbons designs, they’d need to be bit bigger size to the ones kids get at their sports days. Joe, our wonderful SL Artist, we could ask for his help. The ribbon would have rainbow colours over it, and Joe could give us a small likeness of our Leader, Dan, to print on each, then the writing, and date. Have to keep an eye that some didn’t get too greedy. Those ribbons will become collectors items!

93

Women have been submissive to men for a long time, turning it into a kink, how does that change anything?
Men are trained to expect they go first, women trained to go second; I’ve just spent the last forty seven years of my life trying to understand why and how it’s happened.
Look at the visual Arts, where are the women called genius? Where are the women. All these men writing about other men, idolising each other blah blah blah. Forever. Only now do we hear of women scientists, artists, etc.. women of genius, who have been ignored.

94

Hilly @82, I think you were unfair to Phi. She is not being the "PC thought police." She is just trying to wrap her head around how to reconcile treating people with respect with kinky interactions that involve a denial of respect. This is not an easy concept for those who are not that way inclined, and I think it's good for people who are being placed into that position for the first time to give some thought to how to do it in a way that they themselves would find compatible with their own sense of ethics. Most people of conscience, I think, would feel uneasy about calling people they respect homophobic/misogynist names even at their request. It's extremely constructive to go through this thought exercise if one is feeling uneasy. If you intrinsically "get" this, then good for you. But by telling Phi off, you're the one who's policing her thoughts, are you not?

Lava @93: "Women have been submissive to men for a long time, turning it into a kink, how does that change anything?" Yes exactly. I grew up in the 70s and 80s when feminism was a major force in society. Women breaking out of their roles, demanding careers, demanding respect. But this only went so far. The Equal Rights Amendment did not pass; the glass ceiling persisted; sexual harassment and rape remained rife. As a young person it seemed "obvious" to me that these power-suited women would also be taking charge in the bedroom, refusing to be submissive when we spent our whole days fighting against male dominance. Why would a woman spend all day fighting for equality in the workplace and the home and then turn around and call her partner "Daddy" and let him hurt or degrade her? Why would she not prefer to take sex as an opportunity to turn the tables and put the man in his place, as payback for all the injustices her gender continues to suffer at the hands of his?

Please read the above as the thoughts of a person who was young and had no experience with kink, and also with no inclination toward submission myself. Now, of course, my thoughts are that I respect whatever someone is into, and I'm aware it is not a reflection on the way they are out of bed, ie a female sub is not incompatible with feminism, nor should typical female sexual preferences be used to justify income inequality or misogyny the way some people seem to see it. As above, though, being uninclined that way it is weird to try to wrap my head around, in much the same way as someone who isn't into ballet would struggle to understand on a visceral level how anyone could possibly enjoy sitting through a three-hour performance, or the way a non-sports fan views the experience of a major league game as akin to torture. In other words, I respect it but I don't "get" it. The idea of handing power over my person to someone who already has all the power is anathema to me, whereas the idea of taking power away from him (consensually of course) appeals in a huge way.

Again, this is not to judge people with different preferences than mine, it is just to shed light on my own thought process, in the context of comparing it with others'.

As to gender dynamics, also explored by Phi. I agree there is an element missing in same-sex D/s. When there are two people of the same gender, if one is dominant and the other submissive, this is purely a function of their own preferences. They come into the interaction as equals and choose their roles. Whereas with male/female pairings there is a presumption that one will be dominant and the other submissive simply by virtue of their respective genders. They aren't starting with a blank slate. The roles are pre-assigned and of course they can accept or reject these, but that requires a two-step process of first, recognising and analysing the gendered presumption, and second, deciding what it is that you as an individual want versus what's expected of you. And I suppose third, communicating that to the other person who may not be at the same place as you are in having through this through.

As for whether a gay man is insulting himself while calling a sub partner the F-word, there are many who have made the case for reclaiming these words, so it might not bother them. It should be up to the individuals, both of them, as to what they feel comfortable with. Someone like Hilly would have no problem, someone like Phi would, and both of those views are valid.

95

*thought this through. English is funny.

96

On the lighter side, for those who doubted the veracity of the bare-boobs-during-a-zoom-meeting letter:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/03/man-offers-to-resign-after-showing-during-livestreamed-video-meeting

97

@94 I would not say I was telling her off. I would say I was answering someone who was telling the dom/sub world how to live their lives based on their notions about gender roles and society. The same goes for a few other comments on this columns comments - if someone gets off on being submissive or in being dominant and it is consensual and confined to the bedroom then the politics of the world outside the bedroom are not relevant.

Yes out in the real world when in a non-play situation calling someone a faggot or a bitch or a bastard or a hussy or a whore could be offensive, but so would other very common dom/sub actions such as smacking someone’s ass (impact play) and to some people even deem smiling at someone or making eye contact with them can be seen as offensive. People (both male and female) are offended by being called a bitch when they are being a bitch (a word which can mean strong or weak but just refers to a certain anger), people are offended by being called a bastard when they are being a bastard, people are offended by being called a slut when they are being a slut (a word which is in common use since the 14th century and applies to both unkempt and promiscuous men and women). Words only have the power to offend if you choose to be offended by them. Bottom line is being offended by words and actions and the way society is structured and the fact that other people have prejudices is a choice. if you’re offended by other people’s consensual actions when it doesn’t concern you then you’re going to spend your life offended and trying to tell others how to live their lives. If you’re offended by things which do affect you and do concern you then stop choosing to be offended and instead change the situation, either by removing yourself from it or by changing others causing the situation.

If someone wants to have consensual fun with their consenting partner then they shouldn’t have to worry about having condescending lectures on how to fuck and what either of us say when we’re fucking. If it isn’t consensual or it offends one of you then stop it change to something you both enjoy.

98

@94 BiDanFan
"both of those views are valid"

I don't think I understand what this means, that they're both "valid".

As I understand it we're talking about people in private (for example, people having sex) who are doing something that in no way affects them negatively, and that no one else is in absolutely any way affected by or even knows about...and yet other people are calling that (behavior they aren't even aware of in reality, just on principle) 'wrong'. Those other people who are calling that 'wrong' are themselves wrong, because it's not possible for something that has no negative real-world affects to be wrong.

Whether the people having sex privately are themselves affected negatively (now quoting BDF) "should be up to the individuals...as to what they feel comfortable with", because no one else other than them has 'visibility' of that.

99

Erica, It is nice to see that you're still around and I hope you're doing well. I was interested whether you thought I was being insulting, and NoCute too, since y'all have helped me before. I would not want to insult you. And I hope I didn't insult Venn, it was supposed to be a gift that he could spread if he liked it, and invitation to talk further.

Phil, Sorry I used you as an example. It's very convenient that you illustrate my point, but I really don't want you to feel bad. You seem to be in deep pain because you don't seem to care to be polite or considerate, but I have no idea what the source of your pain is, or how to help you, and I guess I took out my frustration on you. Sorry.

Dadddy, "Submissiveness is definitely a subversive way of gaining power, but that comes from what they are willing to do for a dom."
Power isn't about what we can do for someone else, it's about being able to do what we want. And hopefully we want to help others and aren't deeply sadists who want to hurt others. Some like to manipulate, some like to be expertly manipulated in certain places.. some like to be challenged and take pride in adapting and being agreeable.. but those who like to be challenging and disagreeable and have others adapt to them.. I don't understand how that's a strength, that just sounds like confusing insecurity issues or straightforward sadism.. Maybe you can explain?
"Kinky people in general place a higher priority on sex."
Kink is one way to have sex, but we can have as much or as little sex as we want in any way we want, kinksters don't necessarily have more sex, more energetic sex, more considerate sex, or place a higher priority on sex. Perhaps it's more encouraged in the kink community and easier to find those who want to devote a lot of time and energy to sex, but it's such a small community that there will be many more high libido vanillas in number if not percentage.

BDF, I think you are a wonderful woman and I highly respect you and I really love to hear your thoughts and I don't mean to stifle your discussion. But please leave me out of the conversation with HH. I think he is a bi sub that I know irl, that he started posting here when I started refusing to argue about this stuff with him, our real argument is that he hates me for preferring nonmonogamy no matter how monogamous I act, so I just don't want to engage anymore.

100

@99 Yiu have me mixed up with someone else IRL philophile, and I am sorry if what I posted offended you on a personal level and I am sorry that you are being harassed by an ex bf. I don’t know your situation though what you describe sounds like a common problem that many bi people of both genders face and which causes conflict - if we choose to come out as bi to a partner then often they assume that we are nonmonogamous because we are bi.