M?? Harriet - Miss Price has the mind for topping from the bottom, which Miss Smith certainly doesn't, but her instincts don't allow her to top. She might have grown into it had Mr Crawford resisted his fatal flirtation; her beloved Cousin Edmund would have married Miss Crawford and it would likely have been her least awful choice to marry Henry, whose more weakly trained mind she might have been able to influence. Now, her sister Susan Price would fit right into topping from the bottom.

It does open up some interesting possibilities. Miss P yields not only without conviction (shades of the Darcy debate about yielding easily to the persuasion of a friend) but against it. Miss S is supremely persuadable, even more so than Mr Bingley. The closest to a counterpart I've seen might be Miss Pierce from Appointment With Death, who accompanied Lady Westholme in walking past the already-dead Mrs Boynton and later swore to hearing Mrs Boynton grunt in reply to a civil remark, all because Lady Westholme said forcibly how rude it had been of Mrs Boynton to grunt at them.

Lava @ 101
At first read I missed "all" and wondered why LW needs needs to wear a mask and glasses during his goodtime session with a cam model.

@100 LavaGirl" WA-HOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! Major congrats on scoring another Big Hunsky in this week's Savage Love comment thread! Your sexy Mountain Man awaits you. Savor the luscious and envied honors. :)

@92 & @93 curious2: Many thanks for your helpful links and advice! Okay then. I think I would indeed prefer the avatar of Peter Tork---singing Your Auntie Grizelda. My nieces and nephews have all called me Auntie; I'm goofy, quirky, and think that's a better fit than being depicted as a villain. I may have to Google to upload your links. I admittedly am not advanced in the latest technology. :)

@100 LavaGirl: I consider Traffic Spiral's loss your gain. All's fair in Savage Love. :)

Fichu @102... I think I’d suggest the same if VIRGIN was a woman.
He can’t go to a sex worker now, unless he’s writing from NZ, or any of the other countries which are relatively safe atm. Putting out an add, hopefully getting a response, then they could chat for a while? Be safe about meeting up. And visit with a CamGirl.

No Grizelda, the magic was sent to traffic spiral already, hope they use it well.

@106 griz
"I may have to Google to upload your links. I admittedly am not advanced in the latest technology. :)"

Feel free to ask questions of me. And to do so directly to my gmail which is curious784523

I wrote directions on the procedure at https://www.thestranger.com/savage-love/2019/11/05/41892410/savage-love/comments/110

You won't even need to download the image, as you'll see you can just copy-and-paste the image file's URL (which I provided).

Pulver, ""My one girlfriend could not hide the fact that my inexperience offended her." I wonder if this was the OP's interpretation of a reaction that was more like Philophile's "I don't like that guys hide their virginity.""
But I've never told a guy that I was upset that they hid their virginity from me. I was upset at the guy who lied about it, suffice it to say he regretted it. I was sad that they couldn't tell me about their virginity before I took it. But it seems very common, like it's no big deal if VIRGIN does the same thing. Say he's had very few serious relationships but not mention his lack of sex life at all. I think that trying to get to know one woman's body, that he really likes, is going to be more effective at establishing a good sexual connection than banging lots of sex workers. His age sort of helps, I doubt that anyone is going to ask a man in his fifties whether he's ever had sex before. Maybe I even had sex with other virgins who never told me, or lied but never came clean... Or maybe my experience is based on a subconscious bias that I was uninterested in having sex with a virgin... but I don't remember any guys telling me they were a virgin after high school... I remember trying to hit on a virgin in high school but we were both too shy... Has any woman been with a known virgin after they are out of high school, do maybe almost all men just hide it after graduation?

One of my virgins was a good friend but one night we got drunk and we had gotten free condoms and his dorm room was empty so.. it wasn't great because it was so quick but he didn't tell me why he just seemed embarrassed, so we didn't do it again but remained friends.. a year or two later, he had sex a second time, with a virgin.. and made a baby. When he told me about the pregnancy, he finally told me that I was his first because he wanted to tell me how close they were to getting pregnant the first time either had sex.. I'm not actually sure they did it a second time, they were only together for a few months.. So I hope VIRGIN doesn't make that mistake :) (He co-parented well and raised his daughter well, it wasn't an awful mistake)

"my inexperience offended her"
This is an odd thing to get offended about, and I also wonder if they ever talked about it or if he made an incorrect assumption. I was frustrated by the reticence of a virgin. Not offended. I had to learn to be more assertive too.

I disagree that hiring a sex worker is going to make VIRGIN better at sex. Even if she honestly explained what turns her on, she's probably going to have some different tastes, she will probably be more used to porn moves. Cam girls and prostitutes do involve another partner, but not one who is going to tell VIRGIN if he's boring or offensive, rather one who is incentivized to keep him single and focused on her. Since hiring a sex worker is more about solo pleasure in return for payment, more masturbation than mutual pleasure, I think he'd be better off failing to disclose that he's a virgin, than failing to disclose that he's seen sex workers rather than normal sex partners. Unless he wants an uber fleshlight experience... I see nothing wrong with paying for porn or sex as long as no one gets hurt. But I strongly disagree that these are related to sex education in any healthy way, in my culture it is not horrible hyperbole to say they exist to aid male pleasure exclusively, I think over 90% true.

..I don't know.. there's something to be said for finding out that you can get off with another person, and maybe if he doesn't like many people, it might be easier to do that transactionally.. It still seems like it would be easier to advertise to practice handjobs with someone (be more gentle than you think and ask how it feels). Once he's getting off with a woman, and can accept instruction and knows how to get one off with his hands.. if that relationship isn't going further, he can do the more traditional offer of a nice dinner to try to practice intercourse with the next woman, confident that he can reasonably offer to finish her off with his hand if he comes really quickly.

There's also something to be said in practicing talking about what he likes and showing a woman what he likes, that he can do with sex workers, in person, in video, in chat, on the phone... but he should be aware that he's not going to get good experience learning what turns on his partner, or what a woman wants sexually rather than financially, until he's with a woman who wants a romantic sexual relationship with him, be it casual or long term.. and still many women find it difficult to advocate for ourselves especially sexually. In the meantime he could research women's sexual desire and physiology on scarleteen etc.. or cam with real people looking for romance on hookup apps until there's a vaccine..

I have come up with a left-wing equivalent to how far too many right-wingers wet themselves laughing at F-slur jokes (even when the jokes are of the Ironic Homophobia sort and are supposedly - VERY supposedly - using the F-slur in an anti-homophobic manner). This equivalent comes in the form of predictions that grifter supreme Dave Rubin (Mr "I didn't leave the left; the left left me" - who HAS, to be fair, been quite busy of late, having pretty well completed the circle of his journey from where he was four or five years ago, confirming that he's voting for Mr Trump, more or less acknowledging that "conservative" describes him better than "classical liberal", and completing his turn from atheism even farther than just his recent conversion to Christianity to claiming that society NEEDS religion) will presently (since Ms Muse isn't here to go all descriptivist on me) renounce homosexuality, divorce his husband and turn straight. That joke was tired quite some time ago, but lately it's been popping up all over the place. As soon as one person posts a version of it, a dozen voices are raised in giddy approval, with only the odd objection here or there that, as Mr Rubin's utility consists almost entirely in being the Right's Token Gay Willing to Left-Bash From the So-Called "Inside", his paymasters won't let him.

It's the glee in the tone of the comments that really gets to me. I don't defend Mr Rubin (yes, gays have to sell out for mainstream success, but he's sold out not for the lobster but for Chicken McNuggets, and done so most inartistically). But that is a rotten and nasty joke to make, especially for a self-professed ally (and Mr Rubin is a favourite punching bag for many leftists who claim pro-gay positions). And no-one seems capable of looking ahead three spaces and seeing what a nightmare even such a mid-level conversion would be. But why should that get in the way when people can laugh themselves wet at the F-slur?

Philo, @112: a first time sex partner is not going to tell him if he’s boring etc either, she’ll let him know by not going out with him again. And to lie about such a thing @53, is very different to your example of you at college.
He needs professional help, and I think your notions around sex workers of any kind, seems biased. As with any profession, there are those one can trust and those one can’t.
Advertise to practise hand jobs? Where would one put this add. What sort of kooky woman would respond to that add, it’s better to pay. This man doesn’t need loop heads in his life.
I forget, has he tried dating sites. Write himself up truthfully, as Fichu suggested, and there must be women out there who have similar life stories. Haven’t we had women write in, like VIRGIN.
I’d take him on if he lived nearby because he’s hopefully not carrying any STIs.. I think I’ve read mothers can hand them on thru the birth canal. Being with a virgin could be a sweet experience. He hasn’t learnt to be a player, doesn’t have ten children scattered around the country. This man should think of himself as a prize. Haven’t women sold their virginity to the highest bidder? Maybe there is a market for the same with older men. Talk about a unicorn.

@113 venn
Wow, this Dave Rubin sounds like scum. What kind of a person endorses Trump /now/, in the 7th month of Trump fiddling while COVID burns (through both the population and what little support Trump had left)?

I'm not surprised I've not heard of Rubin; I don't pay much attention to pop culture, let alone to "the Right". I've got about as much interest in and potential for value from hearing a word "the Right" says as I have listening to a word dogshit on the bottom of my shoe says.

I really wonder at the commenters who've suggested that ViRGIN find equally-inexperienced women for his first time. So … should he select one in her 20s? 30s? 40s? Or someone in her 50s for mutual stumbling around and fumbling with multiple insecurities? I think some people romanticize mutual ignorance but all I envision is people writing in to Dan 5-10-15 years later, complaining how miserable their sex lives are.

In my younger days, I slept with several virgins, only one of whom asked me to do him a favour, as he was returning to his home town for his H.S. fall graduation weekend. He so did not want to be fumbling with his long-time girlfriend. For the record, in no way did I consider it to be a pity fuck.

IMO, the best partner for VIRGIN might be someone polyamorous with several partners who is willing to accept the challenge of taking his virginity and, after a little while, sending him out into the world with increased confidence and shared experiences. I think a personal ad would be the route to take.

Until then, I would suggest he get an upper body massage: especially neck, back, shoulders, arms, hands, and fingers - as a stress reducer and to give him the experience of being touched (without the possibly-overwhelming prospect of a whole-body massage).

Philo @ 112, your last ideas are perfect. Learn about his subject, a woman’s body and not thru porn and cam with others looking for romance. First time though, best he doesn’t fumble around looking for the clit. That’s why a sex worker is the go to person, she can ease by his lack of skills. Teach him. Lots of different sex workers out there, some available for disabled people. Good women.

Good post Helenka. Not sure re the massage. Might be safe to do in Canada.
/ Bit like a time warp in here, if we pretend things will go back to normal, then by god darn they will. It’s a new normal we are all in until whenever. This virus kills and it’s not just the old. And if it doesn’t kill it can leave lingering disabilities. A massage would be great though. Why are people writing in with these problems during a pandemic? Five years ago, one year ago. Now. What do we advise.

@166 Helenka
"I think some people romanticize mutual ignorance"

I don't think that's it at all.

At least once in the last couple years a woman around VIRGIN's age got about the same advice from Dan: to post a frank personal.

I think the idea is that two such people who have failed their whole lives to get anything going with anyone, and are both riddled with insecurity about it, might be able to make it work for a while together, and learn and grow from that.

But more to the point, who else would meet his desire not to buy company? (Which is important to some people.) A lifetime of time has spoken: everyone else isn't a match for these two.

I certainly don't romanticize that. And think that their insecurities and psychological issues might not (to put it in math terms) cancel each other out but might multiply instead. But since all consensual options have been exhausted, they are simply left with this option.

"the best partner for VIRGIN might be someone polyamorous with several partners who is willing to accept the challenge"

Hell yes. Except hasn't time already spoken, and said that this 'best partner for VIRGIN' isn't interested, thank you very much? They're way out of his league.

This reminds me of a Peanuts cartoon in which (maybe it was Linus) asked Charlie Brown something about where their woeful baseball team's league ranked in the hierarchy of leagues. Charlie listed a million levels; major league, minor league, etc., etc., etc., little league, etc. etc. etc. etc. Then he said something like: "We're about twelve leagues below that."

Anyways.
Grizelda, how is your composing going? Why not share your work here, it’s beautiful.
Onto Dora Maar, a French artist of early 20th century on, lived a long life, in my reading at the moment. A most exciting Artist. She was a partner of that sexist little man, Picasso, he broke her for a while. She returned to her work and gave men the flick.
Beatles/ Tom Petty music in my ears.

Questionable ethics, did Dora Maar have. Exceptional surrealist photographer and into kink.

Lava, "a first time sex partner is not going to tell him if he’s boring etc either, she’ll let him know by not going out with him again. And to lie about such a thing @53, is very different to your example of you at college.
He needs professional help, and I think your notions around sex workers of any kind, seems biased. As with any profession, there are those one can trust and those one can’t."

If you're going to call me biased, you could at least explain why, so it doesn't look like an unreasonable attack. I've said that sex workers are having sex for money rather than mutual sexual pleasure, I don't think that's biased. Maybe it's biased to say that sex workers are probably more used to porn moves, I don't actually know that about sex workers, it just seems to be a logical conclusion.

My point was that a sex worker has reason to hide if she's bored or offended, while a romantic partner likely will not hide this, and I'm not sure why you're arguing? And I have no idea what you are talking about lying about being offended or bored or a virgin? I didn't write post 53 and it doesn't seem to have anything to do with lying.

Helenka @ 116
My understanding reading others’ comments on the issue is they meant LW teaming up with someone around his age who is likely to be more patient considering her similar (in)experience, offering equal amount of vulnerability and allowing plenty of room for trial and error, which I hope so is LW’s position.
While things may have hopefully changed, when VIRGE and myself grew up the penis-haver was the one expected to lead an OS relationship of any kind, something that could still haunt and confuse him.

I’m very much in favor of what you described so positively as your personal experience with a virgin back in the days as well as the suggestion, whether personal or not, that an experienced polyamorous woman will be glad to guide a newcomer at his age.
That said, I wonder how much actual interest in such scenario there is among such crowd knowing what we think we know in regards to dickonomics (which curious2 @ 119 has also alluded to.)

re @100 and @109, LavaGirl: Okay then. WA-HOOOOOOO!!!! to Traffic Spiral! Because of LavaGirl's generous bequeathing of the Big Hunsky honors to you this week, the win is yours. Bask in the honors. I hope that the good fortune serves you well. :)

@110 curious2: Help! Therein lies the problem, curious2. I suck TRAGICALLY at copy-and-paste! So much so, I declare Griz copy-and-paste challenged at 100% disability. What steps can you recommend that might be more Griz-friendly?

@120 LavaGirl: Thank you so much! When I have more music composed, I will indeed share the latest from Griz. I have been taking things a little easy, lately. I accidentally tore my right shoulder cuff a little (about a centimeter), and although doctor's exams revealed no need for surgery, I will need to schedule physical therapy. No alto flute playing until this heals. At least I can still play my piccolo and C flutes and piano.
I have to admit, the sunshine has proven a lovely distraction. I want to return to a pet project of setting a Stephen King novel to orchestration. Possibly on the next rainy day or during my recovery after my upcoming hysterectomy next month. Meanwhile, my beloved VW is in the shop to cure funky wiring and getting the fuel lines checked and okayed. Basically getting him in shape for summer driving trips once we get the all-clear from Governor Jay Inslee.

I understand that not everyone has high tech aptitude. However, adding an avatar is not difficult.

@124 griz
Have you attempted the instructions? (It seems like you haven't, and are purely avoiding doing so.) 80% of the procedure is simply going into your Stranger settings. And I wrote out exactly how. Would you please at least attempt to follow the instructions? They are not difficult. (And my carpal tunnel is hurting very badly which is not helping with my patience.) Please just bloody try it.

"What steps can you recommend that might be more Griz-friendly?"

Please don't ask me that if you haven't tried the steps I wrote and keep pointing you towards.

"I suck TRAGICALLY at copy-and-paste!"

FFS. I don't know what you mean by "copy-and-paste", but all it means and I meant was highlighting the image URL I made for you, selecting Copy then Pasting it into the field in your settings. But no need, you can bloody retype the image URL into the field in your settings!

(Copy and Paste are OS commands often available via keyboard shortcuts or a right-click-menu.)(Er, do damn Macs bloody have right-mouse buttons yet?)

You don't have to meet me halfway on this, but you do have to devote the minute it would take to read, and the 30 seconds it would take to execute, the very simple and clearly written instructions. In other words you have to just try.

If you have trouble when you do, I can help. I'm a pro at technical writing and helping tech-averse people to use tech.

(I apologize for getting irritated, but my hand has been very painful all week and it seems like you've been dicking me around.)

@125 p.s.
The reason, griz, that I expect that you haven't tried following the instructions, is that if you had, you could have figured out yourself that you could manually retype my image URL yourself (instead of Copy/Paste it) into the field.

Because of the intense pain my hand has been in I need to minimize further typing, and I ask you to help me do so please if at all possible.

@125 curious2: I honestly feel your pain and am not "dicking you around". I recently pulled something in my right shoulder cuff. Fortunately it won't require surgery--just physical therapy-- but my upper right arm, muscles, and joints hurt like hell. Consequentially, while I can still stick shift (YAY!) to be able to drive my beloved Love Beetle, and still play my piccolo, C flutes, and piano, I cannot play my alto flute like i'd like to. I'm taking it easy so as not to strain anything further. My right arm and right hand are my predominant side for writing, computing, driving, and playing.
Yes--I openly admit to not following your instructions to upload your avatar links, as yet. Largely, this is also due to a lot of pain I am experiencing, too. I have, however, truthfully had disastrous results in the past from attempting copying and pasting--i.e.: transferring something of great importance to somewhere else online--and almost losing it when the computer crashed. I am much better at sending mp3 attachments. What I can do is share your instructions with a local tech friend of mine. He can help me load the Peter Tork / Your Auntie Grizelda avatar to identify with my Savage Love screen name.

Sorry Griz, re your shoulder. Glad you can still play some instruments. Oh curious, it’s the mystery of those of us who don’t have avatars. Who is this speaking??

@127 griz
I'm so sorry about your right shoulder! (Small world, my /left/ shoulder also hurts like hell lately. It totally sucks to not be safe to get acupuncture nowadays. So I'm using cold-packs and a heating pad. And contrast baths for the hand.)

Your local tech friend will see that the avatar can instead simply be downloaded/uploaded without any typing /or/ pasting of the URL.

In part I was trying to motivate you, since this not-trying-it has gone on since November.

(I know that techie stuff is difficult and scary for most people, and I hoped the impatient way I wrote @125 might 'push start' your little project. I'm much better at tech support in person, where I can 'read' where people are at. If your local tech friend falls through, I know I could walk you through it remotely if we were to Zoom [with video off if you prefer] or just talk on the old school telephone.)

In part I was feeling the avatars you've asked for were futile since you forgot you even had the first avatar you asked for since November (which I realized you'd never tried to use). In part it was getting asked for simpler instructions when you hadn't tried the existing ones yet. But mostly it was the need to not be typing because not just therapy but resting my hands is important to get rid of the pain.

While I feel lucky I'm good at tech, people who aren't are lucky too, for they're surely good at beautiful things instead which I'm not.

Griz @127: Give it a try! The worst that can happen is nothing. And if you succeed, you'll be one step closer to becoming tech savvy.

Honestly, I'd encourage all regulars to add a profile picture! It would be really nice to know who has written prior to reaching the end of the post.

116- Helena-- I like the massage idea. I suggested it way back @36.
What age should VIRGIN look for in his personal ad? I suggest giving his own age and seeing who answers. I was thinking of someone close to his own age because I didn't imagine someone in her 20s or 30s answering. I was thinking he wouldn't be flooded with answers anyway. He could treat it as with any ad. You meet for coffee, talk a bit, get to know each other, and decide from there what you want to do next-- even if that's date a bit in the old fashioned sense of seeing movies and eating together before talking bringing up sex.

VIRGIN's letter mentions anxiety and depression and then skips to sex with the implication that curing the sex/virginity problem will cure the confidence/anxiety/depression problem. (Well, not exactly. I'm over simplifying to make a point.) My reading of the letter is to concentrate on whatever will alleviate the anxiety/depression problem, even a little, in the hopes that that will help with the lack of experience with sex problem.

@130 fubar
"add a profile picture! It would be really nice to know who has written prior to reaching the end of the post."

I might not be the only one who is significantly more likely to read a comment if it has an avatar.

Harriet @98, and I'd guess that the women he's friends with were also younger than 53, and that a great many of them fell for their first partner. Remember, we're talking about the women's reasons not to bestow a pity fuck, and among those reasons is the FEAR that he will fall in love. Alongside the experience to know that assuring someone you won't fall in love is not a reliable means of not falling in love, correct?
I still don't quite understand what you're talking about when you speak about friendships based on pity, so I will leave that point. I'll only note that he may or may not have told these friends he's a virgin. One can't pity what one doesn't know, right?

Harriet @99, I'm less interested in "fault" than in solutions.

Lava @100, very kind of you to pass on the hunsky wealth to Traffic Spiral. No doubt such a sour attitude is a mask for someone who is struggling, and we should all try to have more compassion in these trying times.

Phi @111, I had sex with a 20-year-old virgin when I was in my late 20s. He was from a small town and came out of his shell when he moved to the big city and met the friends group I was part of. At first I was reluctant due to his inexperience, but we discussed the potential pitfall of feelings-catching, and he was just so darn cute. We slept together a handful of times and he was fine, I'd not have known. He did catch a few feelings but I observed the campsite rule. He then had a threesome and ended up dating one of the hottest young women in our group, I felt so proud. I trained him well! :)
There was another young man a few years later. Alcohol was involved and things did not go as well. Afterwards he confessed that it was his second time having sex. I hope future experiences were less inebriated. I do think there are far more early-20s virgins than are willing to publicly admit it.

Nocute and Phi, good point that sex workers are not used to teaching, rather to assuring the guy he's the best lay and has the biggest dick even though these things are not true. I hope he can find one who likes her job enough to tailor her services to someone who needs truth rather than flattery, whether in person or on camera.

I think what VIRGIN NEEDS and what he can realistically expect to FIND or GET are different things, pandemic-and-related-real-life difficulties of meeting in person in the age of Covid, aside.

He's depressed and anxious, so much so that he's been afraid of dating and he's 53 years old. His one romantic relationship seems to have done more to sink his confidence than to boost it. He has female friends, which is a step up from the shy, anxious, depressed man who can't even TALK to women, but he sounds as if, dating-wise, he's at the level of a middle-schooler, really nervous. And it doesn't help that in our culture, men are generally expected to make the first move, to do the asking out.

I can't see him putting together a personal ad--that's way too outgoing a move. If he does, I don't know how much response he'd get (again, pandemic aside). If he says he's looking for a similarly inexperienced person who's roughly the same age, he's further narrowing his field, and I don't know that two middle-aged, nervous people are just going to smoothly sail into sex.

The idea of him finding a poly woman who wants to be his teacher is pretty far-fetched. First of all, we don't know what he's bringing to the table, but unless he's super funny or smart, or interesting, or artistic, or good-looking, I can't see why a woman who's poly would be interested any more than any other woman. He's cited depression and anxiety and lack of confidence--those are not attractive qualities.

I am a bit concerned that he's on other blogs that suggest he hire a "prostitute" but he doesn't want to do that--he wants to find someone who genuinely cares for him. I hope these aren't incel-nests. I hope his frustration doesn't curdle into resentment and a desire for revenge.

I think he wants two, maybe three, different things:

1) To experience sex; to see how it works, what it feels like. To not be labeled with the dreaded "virgin" title any more. To get it over with.

2) To be in a loving, committed relationship with someone who cares about him and his feelings, who loves him for himself, and who desires having sex with him because of that love.

3 which is really a subset of #2) To learn how to be a good lover, to please a woman sexually, to make his hypothetical partner feel good.

He's identified his lack of sexual experience as being the reason for his low self-confidence, and he's aware that most people find confidence attractive. So I think that the first thing he needs to address is his lack of experience. Hopefully, once he's had sex (not just once, but once he's had sex a number of times), he will feel more confident that he has what it takes. He also may be giving off desperate vibes now, which likewise are not appealing, and if he had experience and furthermore, knew he could have sex when he wanted it (finances and availability willing), he might be more confident, which in turn would help him when he does decide to put an ad up.

But that's a cart-before-the-horse type of thing, that ad, that search for a real parter. And he'll still be relatively inexperienced at dating and relationships, so he can still say honestly, that he came late to dating, that he hasn't had a lot of casual sex. I'd emphasize the "casual"--it's technically true, and it sidesteps the issue of experience or the use of sex workers, and many women would be thrilled to find a man who wanted to have sex primarily within the context of a loving, committed relationship, as opposed to something that happens on date #2.

Right now, he needs to learn a skill, and he's anxious.
It's true that what most sex workers would do would be to flatter him, but there are many who, if he were honest and said he's never had sex and is looking to gain experience, and he wanted to learn, and he asked them for honest feedback, would be perfectly willing to be that teacher he needs. What he should really do, I think, is find a sexual surrogate, but I have no idea how many or few they are.

Then he goes shyly but not cripplingly-shyly out into the dating world, and looks for a woman who likes him for himself and whom he likes for herself. But first he has to be willing to see a sex worker, and it sounds as though he's not.

Skr (short for Seeker, which struck me as a good fit) Curious - It's been a harrowing journey of increasingly bad optics over the last few years. Mr Rubin has become more and more one of the favourite punching bags of the left, and is largely to the Intellectual Dark Web what Mary MacGregor was to the Brodie Set.

Ill spare the assembled company a detailed account of what happened earlier this year when Mr Rubin learned that, not only would his "friend" Ben Shapiro not bake him a cake, Mr S would only attend a party of Mr R's if it were specifically not a gay party. Mr R tried to pass this off as, "Isn't it nice that we can have a civil discussion about this?" but it clearly stung. Some leftists were content just to voice an equivalent of my line about selling out for Chicken McNuggets, but others practically giggled as they said how "sorry" they felt for him.

The current joke about his turning straight feels about a step and a half nastier than when Mr Savage was so eager to taunt Dr Bachmann and call him closeted, with much chiming in from delighted straight "allies". Besides the damage it would do to have such a conversion for the right to exploit, it's wishing harm on an innocent victim who has not made any sort of public presence for himself.

A personal angle following others’ queue: When it came to dating and such I was a shy, reserved yet super horny teen and often fantasized/wished for being with an older woman who will take the time and patience to guide me through.
Sadly, that did not happen yet few years after gaining some experience through the more conventional trial and error process, I had a summer fling with a younger visiting woman who had none at all. It was short and sweet and per her request we did not go “all the way.”

We kept in touch via sporadic letters and stamps which were still a thing back then and met couple years later once I visited her country. She and her family were very nice to me though she started dating someone shortly before my arrival so checking progress was not on the agenda.
I did notice though couple albums in her records collection which I played when we were together and was honored when she confirmed she got them shortly after returning home.

Few years later, and unknowingly for her as communication ceased, I returned the honor in a very unusual manner. It was my first-time meeting someone as a “crossdresser” and was asked for my femme name. New to the concept I intuitively picked hers and stayed with it for some time before changing it to another, a name I still use that also appears on my additional credit cards. (Legally. Both companies issuing the cards were made aware of my situation and respected my request.)

I doubt she’s reading it, but with the very off chance I’d like to assure “F” that hot summer nights may still tickle my memory on occasion.

@134 nocute
"find a sexual surrogate, but I have no idea how many or few they are"

I think they're normally used for sexual dysfunction, but /maybe/ being a teacher for his zero experience would be appropriate too.

I think they'd be much more likely than a sex worker to maintain evident professional emotional boundaries, which while not what he wants may be what would be best for him.
https://www.surrogatetherapy.org/what-is-surrogate-partner-therapy/finding-a-therapist/

@135 venn
"Skr (short for Seeker, which struck me as a good fit) Curious"

Awww, and even though I said absent gender wars I'll be good with "Mr". Maybe I shouldn't be, but 'seeker' is something I'm flattered to be thought of as.

"taunt Dr Bachmann and call him closeted...an innocent victim who has not made any sort of public presence for himself."

That was a strongly crafted argument, venn. Particularly your observation that he did not make himself a public figure.

(Can one be closeted if [which is true for all we know] he doesn't realize he's gay? I think we talked about this unconscious-closeted status before.)

But "innocent"? He owns and operates a gay conversion brainwashing clinic(1). I think we both think that makes him /not/ innocent of something which he deserves public taunting for.

But I agree he doesn't deserve public taunting for being closeted. His odious mega-public wife OTOH richly deserves being taunted in relation to their marriage. After pondering the conflict between these two sentences, I agree with you that taunting would have best been restricted to their brainwashing clinic. However much she deserved being publicly taunted about their marriage, I don't think it had any additional value, however much it might come with the territory of being such a public couple and the face of anti-gay brainwashing in America.

(1) https://counselingcare.us/our-team/lake-elmo-counselors/

@CMD: A while ago you said you had a fan fiction question for me. I told you I know nothing about the subject, but I just read this and thought you might find it interesting. Maybe it addresses your question as well:
https://catapult.co/stories/emilia-copeland-titus-fanfiction-writers-readers-canon-fanon-headcanon-community-writing-craft?fbclid=IwAR0DiDy32sivdJ6LUk86LIUlAOCGVFx4lUoWjJ4OgSxItv-eqxMIDvL0TAc

Do you like children, VIRGIN, because there are many single mothers out there. In your add you could include that, not in a creepy way of course. If you ok to date women with children.
There’s a task some here might help him with? How to write an add which tells the truth yet is a little edgy. He could change words which don’t sit right with him. I’m not up on dating site lingo.
Does he mention he’s a virgin straight up? I don’t think so, could hint he’s not that experienced with women/ relationships. Then mention what he enjoys, etc.
And yes, nocute, don’t come across needy and lacking in feeling ok about himself. True, this is the first issue, to love himself and be ok with his achievements in life.
As we all know, doesn’t take long to get the hang of sex.

VIRGIN, no, the world hasn’t left you behind!
His holiness the Dalai Lama is celibate, and look at how well he’s used his life. He turned 80 something a few days ago.
Your issues re depression and anxiety, have you been in therapies which help with these conditions?
Yes you want someone to love you for who you are, so who are you.. because you are more than a virgin man of 53, with depression and anxiety.
Who isn’t anxious at this time. Depression can be about the thought loops one goes thru in the mind, like ‘ ‘has the world left me behind,’ type thoughts.
Meditation can help here, because those negative thoughts are no use, except to increase the depressive feelings. Meditation can help one watch the thoughts, and let the self / other put down ones, fly on by/e.

Helenka @116, I agree he should not seek someone with a similar level of inexperience. A few reasons, most of which you've hit on. A woman with that little experience would either be creepily younger or similarly mentally unhealthy; either way, this is unlikely to be a dynamic that is anything less than awkward for them both. Why should he look to the blind to lead the blind? I like your idea of seeking someone who is poly. Polyamorous people are used to dealing with the feelings of people in non-primary relationships. She would have the skills to be kind to him emotionally while being patient with him sexually; if he lacks the skills off the bat to make her come, she can get that from her existing partners while he learns. And he'd be free to simultaneously date other women who could lead to a more serious relationship.

Curious @119: "And think that their insecurities and psychological issues might not (to put it in math terms) cancel each other out but might multiply instead." Very well put.
"Except hasn't time already spoken, and said that this 'best partner for VIRGIN' isn't interested, thank you very much? They're way out of his league." Where do you get this? There's no evidence that VIRGIN has approached any poly women, let alone that every poly woman would consider an inexperienced person beneath her. That's pretty insulting both to VIRGIN and to poly women. Given his reluctance to go the sex worker route, VIRGIN may have been thinking of sex as something one does either in the context of a relationship or possibly between two friends who are both single. He may not have realised that someone who's already in a relationship or a few can "care for me as I am" and give him "more than sex."

Nocute @134, good catch that these "blogs" he's reading may be incel forums. He would be better talking to his female friends about this. Also, speaking as a poly woman, I can say that indeed we have more space to be lenient than women who are looking for monogamous relationships. When you're poly, someone doesn't have to be the perfect match for you, because someone or someones else are meeting the needs this person does not. Also, poly women may be more adventurous and see initiating a middle-aged man into the ways of sex as a fun challenge. My experience in the poly community is that mental health issues are not considered dealbreakers. I suggested way back that he could enlist the help of one of his female friends to write his personal ad. Good point that he should specify his own age but not the age range he is seeking. He could use a word like "shy" instead of "virgin" and only disclose that fact if he thinks he might like to proceed with her. He should take Dan's advice to younger men and get in shape, learn to cook, read good books, get an interesting hobby etc. And he should modify Happy Hedonist's advice and not expect to find true love with his first -couple- of sexual partners. I think it's obvious that his bar is way too high; he needs to find a Ms Right Now, rather than holding out for Ms Right.

@133. Bi. Oh, I'm sure that he hasn't told many of his female friends that he's a virgin. In his mind, as I would reconstruct it, there's this big thing about him, this central void, that they don't know about. And, I would guess, he fears revealing it because it would burden, or at least alter, his friendships.

The best way of shedding this burden, imv, would be his seeing a sex worker.

But if he can't... if it would be too great an admission of failure, if it would fail to square with his moral ideas (in whatever sense), or his aspirations about himself, then VIRGIN should ask whether he wants to have sex or not. And in what spirit? If it's 'yes', and he isn't paralysed with shame about his inexperience, putting out a personal ad that's clear about his circumstances would be a good route to take. The sex he has, if he finds someone that way, will be meaningful.

But whatever he chooses to do, if anything, should be informed by an accurate sense of how far his anxiety and depression are likely to impede him. If (for instance) he hasn't been able to turn up for things before because he's been too anxious, that anxiety is unlikely to lapse because the context's dating. If he's dealt with his depression by being functional and not addressing his issues when he's well--not letting anyone into his mental health problems, when they're not apparent--then that approach is not likely to land him a consistently available partner who can help him, who can still be sexually in a relationship with him, during his 'down' periods. People have a tendency to think, e.g. 'it will all be all right', 'I'll be able to cope where I haven't previously' when they're on an upswing. Dating and first-time sex, especially when someone wants an emotionally invested relationship, do not constitute an environment in which we can magically leave the rest of ourselves, all our pasts, all our problems, behind.

I know there will be too much extrapolation, or just apparent extrapolation, in that characterisation for you; but I think in trying to understand this guy's situation, we have to ask why it hasn't happened for him in dating for about forty years.

/break/
I don't think we can know, just from the generic description of VIRGIN we have (53 yo male virgin), whether he'd be good at sex. We don't know, for instance, whether he'd come at a slight touch or be anorgasmic. We don't know whether he'd accept a woman's lead and do whatever he can to please her, or whether he'd be intent on his own orgasm. His framing wanting to lose his virginity as a matter for him isn't a good sign re the latter; but he didn't have time to reflect, or take anyone else's views on board, in writing to Dan.

He's probably unaccustomed to touch, so seeing a masseuse (probably more than a masseur) and accepting the financial nature of that transaction might take him forward a little in considering whether a sex worker would be a deal too far.

Nocute, to my mind, has clearly and insightfully said that VIRGIN probably wants two different things.

@135. venn. At bottom, I guess, my view is that the religious right think we are pathological, and they think we are pathological.

Being a strident homophobe married to a camp, probably gay, homophobe (the Bachmann case) expresses an underlying pathology to me. It speaks of being unable honestly to take stock of your experience, reflect on it, learn from it and do the best thing you can in your circumstances. Let's say, as a het woman, you marry a man who embodies some of the most sterling qualities of masculinity for you. It turns out, as you reconstruct it, that he's projecting, in a compensatory way, for being gay, a condition he fears and despises. The non-pathological thing to do is to recognise your situation--to withdraw from the marriage, if you seek sexual and emotional satisfaction from it; to avoid stigmatising homosexuality; not, as far as possible, to assign blame to your ex or to dwell on his shortcomings. An inability to do this is impaired; it's about a faulty 'reality function', or too great an attachment in being right, in not being shameful, in consistency, probity or adherence to external standards. There's a problem with people who cannot gracefully learn.

The right's view is that the condition of gayness is itself pathological. (Then, of course, there are the Cheney-type hypocrites who know it's not, but play along with their ignorant supporters to get them running with low taxes).

Some Griz-friendly instructions for adding an avatar.
1. Make sure you are signed in. You can do this by clicking on the little icon that looks like a person at the top of the page, between "Support The Stranger" and the search icon.
2. Once you are signed in, click the same place and choose Account.
3. This will take you to a page with your account details including username and e-mail address, and, ta-da! a place where you can upload a profile picture. Mine says "Change your picture" because I already have one uploaded, so yours may say something like "Upload a picture," but it should be pretty obvious. Click on that and you can attach the image by clicking on Select File, you can then upload any image you have saved to your hard drive.

Look forward to seeing some more avatars!

@141 BiDanFan
I think my point @119 was pretty clear. So I'll mostly try (briefly, every keystroke hurts/flares up my carpal tunnel and delays recovery) to focus on what I think some people are not getting.

"They're way out of his league." Where do you get this? There's no evidence that VIRGIN has approached any poly women"

My comment wasn't about poly women. @123 CMD summarized my point as being about "dickonomics"[1], but I don't want to gender it:

Maybe this point is difficult to see from the perspective of people who are very successful at relationships.

We have a 53-year old VIRGIN. It should be understood that he's tried to have a relationship, and is (in sports language) 0 for 53-years-of-trying-to.

Someone capable of attracting multiple /simultaneous/ relationships is not in his boat (or league).

The concept of people lowering their standards in such a situation is often invoked here. That's why I invoked Dan's repeated advice (to women in VIRGIN's boat) for VIRGIN to look for someone in his own boat.

"Where do you get this? There's no evidence that VIRGIN has approached any poly women, let alone that every poly woman would consider an inexperienced person beneath her."

Again (ouch) my comment wasn't about poly women. And boiling down his problem to 'inexperience' is not appropriate. His problem is that he has been/is someone who is not ever chosen by people who have other choices (such as people capable of attracting multiple /simultaneous/ relationships).

I specifically said a poly women would be "best" for him; but when 53-years have taught us that no one (let alone best) is interested in him, it's time to suggest he aim lower.

As nocute said @134 "He's cited depression and anxiety and lack of confidence--those are not attractive qualities.", and the relationship market has spoken.

[1] And taught me that new word; I read an article about "dickonomics" which irritated me by how many times it repeated the sentence "Dick is abundant and low value." at https://medium.com/matter/the-dickonomics-of-tinder-b14956c0c2c7

@143 BiDanFan
"Griz-friendly instructions"

Kind of you to be less ticked off than me and provide new instructions though she hasn't even tried the ones I wrote 8 months ago. (Which admittedly I didn't even write for her and I'll be damned if I'm gonna look at them to see if they need improvement when she hasn't looked at them.)

p.s. @141 BiDanFan
I take your point that

"a poly woman...ha[s] more space to be lenient than women"

but I think a 53-year VIRGIN due to "depression and anxiety and lack of confidence" is asking for more than that "space", it's asking for the very unlikely.

While so extremely obliquely as to be nearly tangential, my personal situation leads me to unfortunately question whether it makes sense to expect poly women to be his answer. Surely that made no sense, and I'm neither willing here nor now capable of typing more, but: Without opening my own can of worms, I will just cryptically note I think of myself as poly.

nocute @ 138
Thanks for the link. I used the wrong term in my initial post as I’m actually interested in erotic fiction not related to already existing characters, whether in real life or appearing in a book or film.
Since I’m home nowadays I got some such books to keep me busy and inspired from a site that promotes cross dressing as part of femdom relationships, found them exciting and well written and thought I’ll try write something myself.

You mentioned in the past that you did publish some books, and though they may deal with a different subject matter I thought of contacting you to learn more about the publishing side of it.
Few weeks later I lost some of my passion to write such stories as nowadays I’m busy tweaking my resume and writing cover letters, in addition to ongoing poetry and online writing groups.

curious2 @ 144
Thanks for the credit, though this is not a term I came up with. I was introduced to “dickonomics” by a link nocute provided here a while ago, in relation to a discussion we had following someone’s question re online dating. It may even be the same link you mentioned.

@146: CMD: Ah, erotica, not fan fiction--I do know a tiny bit more about that. I have to start by saying that I have never posted anything erotic on sites like literotica or the like. I am not self-published and because I want to be published, there are certain rules I have to follow (no characters under 18 is the main one). I don't know if there is more leniency if you're posting on literotica or something or self-publishing. I have published several short stories in anthologies, all of which have been electronic in format. I dream of being published in ink on paper, which is the only way I like to read my erotica, but so far, I haven't broken through that barrier. I also have to say that I've never made any real money from my erotica, that I publish for the thrill of hoping that people read my words and get themselves off or couples read it as a part of foreplay or mood-setting. All told, I've netted perhaps $50 from it over the years. In my case, I enjoy writing it, it turns my crank, it kind of hits two of my biggest loves: writing and sex, and since I'm writing it, I know it will turn me on, because I don't always love everything I can find.

The best place I know of to find calls for submissions or resources for writers is the Erotica Readers and Writers Association (ERWA). Here's a link to their home page: https://www.erotica-readers.com/home/

If you look under the tab that says "for Authors," you will find lots of good things. Two more suggestions:

1) find an author you really like and find out how to get in touch with them, and then ask if they would mind reading you and giving you feedback and advice. I wrote to a small handful of people; most never responded; one very famous writer told me she didn't do that kind of thing and didn't have time but she kindly took the time to respond and responded graciously, so I was grateful; one writer did read an early story (inspired by a Savage Love letter!) and gave valuable feedback, also suggesting publishers or ways to get published. He was very helpful and kind and I am still grateful to him. Years later, I befriended him on Facebook (we have mutual friends), and I wonder whether he remembers those exchanges (I also ended up briefly dating someone I met on OkCupid, who used his literary pseudonym as his dating site username. We talked a lot about writing erotica, but he had no real advice for me).

2). Go to the website of the publisher of erotica you know and like (there are some publishers dedicated to certain niche markets and some that are more broad-reaching), scour it for contact info, and write to the publisher directly. That worked for me once.

Most of my success has come through the ERWA site's call for submissions, and for a while I had an editor who really liked and always found the right anthology for my pieces, but he has since moved on to doing something else, and I have found that anthologies have often become so specialized in their focus that nothing I have in my bag o' tricks meets the requirements. As I write primarily for my own entertainment, I haven't tried to create a story that incorporates themes of reindeer or elves for a special Christmas-themed anthology, or aliens or robots or lesbian furries or . . . Typically, I write a story because I want to and then look to see whether any of the calls for submission matches anything I have sitting on my hard drive.

Good luck and happy writing!

Thanks!

I'd sure be interested in reading your erotica if y'all are willing to point us towards it.

Philo @122; I meant a partner is not going to tell him if he is boring etc, any more than a sex worker would. Not on a first date, and if she feels like that then she won’t go out with him again.
With a sex worker, only to get him started having sex, if he tells her the truth and asks to be taught, pays extra for her time, porn moves or not, he’s getting advice from a professional.

@151 ChiTodd
Thanks for the good intentions, Todd!

I'm /very/ plugged-in to the repetitive strain injury community, so I hear that touch works great for some people. (Not for me, I'm having even more trouble lately using my phone than my keyboard.)

(I know that voice is an option--one I'm expert at--but alas my computer is too old and weak for that.)

@128 LavaGirl: Thank you and bless you. After several weeks of wild goose chases trying to schedule appointments, I have been able to schedule physical therapy for my right shoulder. It's nice to know that my healthcare is taking care of this and my upcoming hysterectomy.
Griz is falling apart at 56, saggy boobs and all.
@129 & @144 curious2: I am sorry about not getting back to you, regarding your initially offered avatar uploading instructions back in--heavens--November 2019?!? I apologize. Your posted comment then was one I had indeed read but had meant to get back to, and I didn't. My bust. The world premiere of my second symphony was in the making (concert December 20, 2019), and my mind was and has been certainly elsewhere. Griz has indeed been feeling like a basket case, lately, and forgetful at times.
@130 fubar: Thank you. I certainly plan to once I address current health issues (I.e.: my pulled right shoulder cuff and upcoming hysterectomy). I do like the idea of an image to connect my comments by. :)
@144 BiDanFan: Thank you, too, for your kind offer of additionally helpful avatar advice. :)

@153 griz
Aw, please don't apologize any more, I'm not upset now. I am at peace with the ball being in your court.

Oh speaking of your symphony, I've asked at a couple times[1], and you said you'd let me have a link so I can hear it a couple times. Let me know if you've like a reminder at some time.

[1] The last time I also offered my substantial skills and experience in working with and sharing music. I like music very much; classical music isn't my favorite genre, but I would love to hear a symphony a good friend created.

Both SUBHUB and his wife have issues to deal with. Her viewing ejaculation (which isn't always something that people do in sex regardless of intent - as others noted, this could have nothing to do with his penetrative play and everything to do with his age or another physiological factor) as a necessity is a problem; she should get over that. (Alternatively, ejaculation per se isn't the problem, and she's doing that allistic thing where people don't say what they actually mean because clear, direct communication is bad for some reason, in which case she should be direct about the actual problem - possibly a lack of attention or the feeling that she's mostly secondary to SUBHUB's interest in being penetrated by toys, which doesn't necessarily and may not involve her much of the time - so they both know what problem they're actually trying to deal with and can address it.)

His reasoning also makes no sense, which means he either needs a corrective mandate or, like may be the case with his wife, he's not telling us the real reasons (or both); why not get fucked BEFORE fucking his wife so that he can finish with PIV, or have his wife fuck him with a dildo or operate a vibrating butt plug while he's fucking her? There seem to be simple, obvious mechanical solutions to the problems as stated (and interpreted - phrases like "keep going" are ambiguous, further hindering advice), so I think we're not getting an accurate or complete story from one or both people involved.

Okay, for those interested, here's the bargin: 99 cents for an anthology; I have two stories in this one: "The Shoes," and "Dress Slutty," by Grace Moskowitz (not my real first name).

Here's a link:
https://www.amazon.com/Dressed-Impress-Giselle-Renarde-ebook/dp/B00C4IQM9E/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=dressed+to+impress&qid=1595293868&s=books&sr=1-6

But CMD, look at the other books Amazon has with the same title: https://www.amazon.com/Dressed-Impress-Crossdressing-Feminization-Humiliation-ebook/dp/B071GRB9JS/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=dressed+to+impress&qid=1595293896&s=books&sr=1-2

https://www.amazon.com/Passing-Female-First-Crossdressing-Feminization-ebook/dp/B07NGKF18P/ref=pd_lutyp_crtyp_simh_1_4/143-5623509-1045418?encoding=UTF8&pdrd_i=B07NGKF18P&pd_rd_r=c17c3ec9-6609-4023-a326-f6b957a78dce&pd_rd_w=0kLq6&pd_rd_wg=WtPQX&pf_rd_p=11bf186d-590b-449a-8161-5414a5d28305&pf_rd_r=FGWTHYSN1VR7GVFDWX8A&psc=1&refRID=FGWTHYSN1VR7GVFDWX8A

https://www.amazon.com/Dressed-Impress-Crossdressing-Calandra-Hunter-ebook/dp/B00LKPHV4W/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=dressed+to+impress&qid=1595294336&s=books&sr=1-3

JohnH @155, symbolically Ms SUBHUB is saying what the problem is, because by him not coming in her, her cherry on the top, he’s saying fucking her isn’t orgasmic, for him. .
VIRGIN, intimacy, sexual intimacy is complex. First is the ability to attract. At 53 yrs old, you’ve in middle age still, so, have you kept your body in shape, eat well/ get enough rest, and your mind interested in stuff.
Giving the virus has joined us, at this time I think going online and finding groups you can join and learn from, not women hating ones though, is safest. Sex workers may have Covid strategies.. Be discerning.
Get online, join dating sites and put yourself out there, in a positive, light hearted way.

curious @152 "I'm /very/ plugged-in to the repetitive strain injury community"

Given that, I'm sure I'm not telling you anything new, but I thought I'd share what helped me nip my beginning wrist problems from computer use in the bud many years ago.

(1) use mouse with left hand even though I'm right-handed.
(2) use an adjustable (important! Not fixed) split keyboard. Mine is a Goldtouch keyboard.

I haven't had carpal tunnel-problems since I took those measures.

Curious @144, the comment I quoted directly followed a pull-quote from Helenka's post @116 suggesting he find a poly woman. Then you say your comment was not about poly women? No, if you meant anything but what I interpreted, you weren't clear at all. If you're in pain perhaps it's best you take a break until you can both formulate and type your thoughts more easily?

Please don't patronise me. I understand dickonomics. Have I not been saying that he should take steps to become more attractive to women, namely getting in shape, getting interesting hobbies etc? Have I not mentioned that going after younger women in an attempt to match his inexperience level would be creepy? I have offered my analysis of why I don't think he should go for a matching pair -- and you, too, said as much in the insightful sentence I quoted in that same post. "Leagues" and "boats" are not the same thing. He has, as you say, struck out thus far so perhaps it's time he tried something he did not try before. You contradict yourself by saying a poly woman would be "best" for him and that a poly woman is out of the question due to her "superior" ability to find relationships. Did it escape your notice in both my and Phi's stories that we, experienced women, did not reject inexperienced men? Why would you immediately say that all poly women want -only- men with similar experience? If you are worried about the dickonomics angle, VIRGIN should concentrate his efforts on women who are not more objectively attractive than himself. As you say, this strategy could not possibly be any less effective than what he's tried previously, so why not employ some of that confidence and approach some women in the boat across the way who might not be fazed by -- or who might even be charmed by -- his innocence?

I am not sure you know many poly people; you give us far too much credit, assuming that none of us have mental health issues of our own, putting us on some kind of pedestal. Perhaps I should choose to take this as a compliment, but it's not accurate and not helping VIRGIN's cause.

CMD @146, good luck with your writing endeavours! I'd be happy to provide proofreading services if you wish. I have a hunch I will enjoy your stories very much. :) Good luck as well with the job hunt. It's tough out there.

Lava @150, I think that if he hides his inexperience, he risks a partner concluding secretly that he's a bad lover and not calling him back. But whether with a paid professional or an unpaid person with decades of sexual history, if he tells her up front he has no experience and asks to be guided, he'll get what he asks for.

Chi @151, certainly there are drawbacks to the poly angle. A poly woman may have her plate full and may not have time to patiently guide someone. As for "most self-described poly people are not looking for a man," um what? The straight female ones are. (You're correct that the -bisexual- poly women probably have a queue of men already and if they're looking, they're looking for women.) "Many poly gals have had bad experiences with mono guys who thought that they were good enough until a "real" relationship came along." Fair enough, but these are the mono guys who approached them under false pretenses; VIRGIN can get round this by being up front about wanting a short-term relationship, which should be more appealing to someone partnered than someone single, yes? I agree that VIRGIN's ideal virginity-taker isn't a poly person, but a sex worker, but he doesn't want a sex worker, and this is potentially a feasible alternative.

I think the upshot is that other than paying for it, the odds are stacked against VIRGIN no matter whom he approaches and how, so he should take several different tacks in the hopes that one will lead him to what he wants. Try posting two different personal ads, one in which he mentions his inexperience and another in which he does not. Try approaching poly women who are in a similar "league" looks wise. Try getting some covid-era pointers from cam girls. Try asking his friends to set him up. If even one of these strategies works he'll be smiling.

John @155: Why should Mrs. SUBHUB "get over that"? She likes and wants SUBHUB to ejaculate inside her. She's allowed to want whatever she likes, and like whatever she wants. Good for her.

At least VIRGIN isn't doing what many men in his position do: join Fetlife, put up a dick pic, and mail bomb all the women (without reading their profiles) with the same cut-and-paste message.

I was surprised by the suggestion that he seek out a poly woman. In my experience, playing "monopoly" quickly becomes fraught with drama, and VIRGIN sounds like he wants a relationship, not just a mentor to help with his inexperience. Unless he can decouple these two things, he's likely to be a handful for a poly woman.

As an aside, nothing in his letter says that VIRGIN is mono, but it is the default setting in western culture.

Fubar @160, I took John's comment to mean that ageing may preclude her husband from being physically able to ejaculate inside her. If this is the case, she will need to "get over that," just as her husband will have to "get over" having to use lube when she is menopausal, should that happen to her body. Of course she's allowed to be sad about it, but it would be immature and unreasonable for her to leave him for committing the sin of ageing.

Fubar @161, yes, thank goodness for that! I think the poly suggestion was a realistic idea because what he (presumably) wants, a fully realised monogamous relationship, isn't happening, and one of the things that's holding him back is lack of sexual experience, so this could be a way to get some sexual experience in preparation for seeking women who want a monogamous relationship. Indeed, he should not approach these poly women as if they up-for-anything, unpaid sex workers, but as potential friends with benefits. His current options seem to be sex workers, FWBs or nothing, and certainly continuing to be a virgin until Princess Charming comes along is an option, but I don't think he needed Dan or the commenters to tell him that.

@158 RE
Good ideas, both 1 and 2, I've already done both for a quarter-century.

@159 BDF
"you say your comment was not about poly women"

Sorry I meant that in the sense of 'you're making it about poly'(1). And my point was that it's not, it's about his utter failure WRT relationships. In other words it's not about his prospects w/poly women, it's about his prospects w/all women.

(1) Which I usually love, but once before last year opined was a tangent.

"Have I not been saying that..Have I not mentioned that..."

I don't recall; I'll of course take your word for it. But I think my point on this subtopic is separate from that subtopic.

"Leagues" and "boats" are not the same thing."

True, I think that the sentence I wrote informs me that if he steps into that boat it mightn't long stay afloat. I just think he still should since there's no other boat for him to step into, and once he dries off they'll both (as I said) have grown from the experience.

"we, experienced women, did not reject inexperienced men? Why would you immediately say that all poly women want -only- men with similar experience?"

Wait. I clearly observed @144 that

"boiling down his problem to 'inexperience' is not appropriate. His problem is that he has been/is someone who is not ever chosen by people who have other choices"

His problem is what caused his inexperience: that he is, I'll summarize a bit excessively, unwantable by anyone.

"[some] poly people...have mental health issues"

I agree, even better than a woman in the same boat (i.e that no one else has ever wanted due to her own issues) would be that that woman was a poly woman that no one else has ever wanted (and maybe she wouldn't because of your observation about "space" need to be equally unwantable).

However, it's not that I'm thinking poly people are on that pedestal. It's that isn't VIRGIN's hypothetic poly woman only poly in theory but not practice (like me, BTW) if she's never been wanted by anyone? (And after her own 53 years of failure, would she really have poly as a dealbreaker: wouldn't it be a bit mad for someone with no prospects of ever having a relationship to pass on their once-ever shot at one because it's a mono one because they want multiple of what they'll never even have one of?) In other words, my pedestal didn't contain a poly woman who had never been poly in practice, for whom it has always been an impractical dream mocked by her 53 years of utter failure. I thought I sufficiently made this clear @144 when I wrote about:

"Someone CAPABLE of attracting multiple /simultaneous/ relationships"

Curious @163, Helenka made it about poly this time, not me. You responded to her suggestion of dating poly women. You did not make it clear that you were talking about all women. I don't think either Helenka or I was thinking of a woman who is simultaneously inexperienced and poly! We were thinking of a different subset of women than you, not at all thinking that a blind woman would be best to lead this blind man, but that a woman who has experience and is not looking for a primary partner could be a good "starter relationship," if you will, capable of honouring the campsite rule. If you then muddied the waters by hypothesising a woman who was simultaneously wanted by many but not interested in any, then I agree she would not be interested in him either, but that really doesn't make any sense to me at all, and therefore was not clear from your post.

In fact, what I think you're actually doing is no longer talking about VIRGIN or a hypothetical poly woman at all, but yourself and an actual poly woman in whom you are interested but about whom you've declined to share details, therefore it's no wonder I'm confused.

Back to VIRGIN, just because he has not had a successful relationship by age 53 does not mean he is "unwantable by anyone." He could, on the other hand, be "too picky," could he not? It's not that every woman is "out of his league," but that he has only approached women who are "out of his league," ignoring those who might be less attractive. Also, unapproached does not mean unwanted in a world where men are expected to do all approaching, but due to his anxiety he has not done any approaching, therefore not giving women who might well have said yes the opportunity to say no.

nocute @ 156
Thanks, I’ll check out your stories.
Thanks also for the publishing tips and the links to stories I may find of interest. At least one of them is dealing with a subject matter I consider writing about and have some possible chapters going on in my mind.
It is my observation that most erotica on feminization and such is written by assigned-male-at-birth, aka AMAB’s which could make them one dimensional and often veering too much to the side of fantasy which to me comes across as not even remotely possible which is likely to take away some of the excitement.
Bad writing turns me off and it’s often apparent even on the few paragraphs one may see on Amazon or other sites. I suspect this is the case in any erotica genre, regardless of who wrote it.

Preferred site of my subject matter is this one:
http://www.brassiered.com/main.html
It seems to be run by a woman who actually lives the lifestyle along with her husband and is advocating for it. Beyond stories the site also publishes instructional books on different related issues, sometimes implying a reality which may be viewed as fantasy, yet doing it so seamlessly that it often makes you read it again to make sure you got it right, not to mention a desire to revisit on occasion.
As one can tell, I also prefer the paper format.

The stories that site offers are likely to be based at least partially on real life experiences and can also lead to play time ideas and other suggestions, while action ranging from mild to the fairly wild to suit all interests and preferences.
A very wise woman i’m honored to clean and cook for on occasion while wearing the proper attire thinks the stories were written by more than one person, which may explain their broader appeal and the detailed descriptions of the characters actions and thinking in different situations.
http://www.brassiered.com/catalogue.html

@164 BDF
"I don't think either Helenka or I was thinking of a woman who is simultaneously inexperienced and poly!"

Why would this woman be interested in a guy who time has shown that no women are interested in?

(Where I'm coming from here is similar to nocute@134: "I can't see why a woman who's poly would be interested any more than any other woman.")

"talking about...an actual poly woman in whom you are interested"

No there is no such actual woman.

"He could, on the other hand, be "too picky," could he not?"

Wait, I don't think any of us including you read the letter this way (as you tangentially reminded me @159). I'll just refer you back to the short letter instead of quoting from it to save typing keystrokes.

@166 p.s. to BDF
I retract "as you tangentially reminded me @159" because looking back at your @159 I see @159 didn't acknowledge that this

"53-year-old guy...been struggling with depression and anxiety all my life...women seem to want someone much more outgoing and confident than I am or ever will be"

is just plain not attractive to women.

I do apologize for how telegraphic I'm needing to be, I suggest I'm not really capable of proper elaboration so I fear it would be best if I didn't trouble you further with this exchange.

Curious @166: "Why would this woman be interested in a guy who time has shown that no women are interested in?"

Has this guy approached all however many billion women on the planet? Have they all turned him down? Isn't it likely that his anxiety and depression have meant he has not dared to approach many women? The luck he's had so far is bad, which has led to a self-defeating prophesy. This, I think, is his main problem -- selling himself short. His problem is that he's thinking the way you are -- that no women could be interested in him. His pessimism has caused his problem; how is more pessimism going to fix it? This is an advice column; I'm not sure how "give up, no one will ever want you" is either good advice or true. He can learn to be more outgoing and confident, can he not? He has already made admirable strides in that direction. I don't think his -main- problem is being too picky, but he clearly is being too picky when he rejects the idea of a sex worker. Who else has he ruled out, and should he rule them back in? You're painting women as a monolith; indeed, you refer to "this woman" as representing all women. Sure, MOST women -- most people -- are attracted to confidence. But a minority find shy and unassuming men appealing. I know loads of people who have mental health issues and who are in happy relationships so I don't see why you're saying it's impossible for this one.

@168 BDF
"His problem is that he's thinking the way you are -- that no women could be interested in him."

It's true (he clearly states) that he thinks that. I don't literally think that "all however many billion women on the planet...Have...all turned him down".

I specified that what I said did "summarize a bit excessively".

But not so excessively that I think 'just keep trying' is good advice. I agree he needs to change (I'm not saying "give up"), and atop that my point here is to target a population of people who are, like him, desperate enough to (as you agree is necessary for him) need to settle. (I also agree that it might be optimal for his future GF to be poly so as to have 'space' for what he can be to her.)

I'm sorry I can't allow myself specifically speak/type to your other points, but I hope you will see that the above already did.

Somewhere upthread someone lamented that VIRGIN wrote us now during the pandemic. I think the opposite is true. I think he's appropriately reflecting on this now because the pandemic has given him time to think. And also time to try to grow to become someone with a better chance with someone who doesn't herself need to settle so much. Time to read, time to reflect. An online dating site can lead to phone calls and video conference to practice. I think the pandemic is less lamentable for him that for nearly anyone.

Best thing I ever did for carpal tunnel was pull ups and chin ups. Strengthened all the gripping muscles. Pain literally went away. Also, diet can have an impact. If your diet is causing inflammation of some sort, that can make joint pain overall much worse.

@171 psd
First, most people with RSI (repetitive strain injuries) don't have carpal tunnel. (Including me, I just say that because carpal tunnel is all most people have heard of.)

Second, exercise can help some people with RSI some of the time, but for most it's the worst advice in the world.

Third, there's no reason to think exercise benefits carpal tunnel.

@171 psd
p.s.
Did you really have carpal tunnel (diagnosed by a nerve conduction test)?

RSI's, OTOH vary very widely in severity. Most go away with trivial measures. Some like me are infinitely less lucky.

p.p.s.
I appreciate everyone's good intentions, but I do not need RSI advice. I've been advising others WRT to RSI for decades.

@169 curious2: WA-HOOOOOO!!!!! Major congrats on scoring this week's Double Whammy Award (@69 Lucky @69 + @100 Big Hunsky = @169). Savor the double honors and bask in the envied glow. :)

@171 philosophy school dropout and @172 curious2: I have finally been able to schedule an appointment on Thursday for physical therapy regarding my upper right arm and right shoulder cuff. Meanwhile, I have also phoned and emailed my tech friend to make a house call (Griz can't even renew her WA state driver's license online! I rue the day the world becomes fully automated and machines run everything). Hopefully he can also show me how to add an avatar to my Savage Love screen name, too.

On to the Double Hunsky (@200)? Tick...tick...tick...

@curious... whatever. what a jerk....

Fan @159, I don’t think he should put it in his profile, not saying he can’t bring it up during a internet conversation, once he’s chatting with someone/s. And given the virus crisis, many may not be up to meeting, for a while.
What do you suggest he write? Who puts up on their profile All their info.. He can mention he’s not had many relationships, which is true. He had that one rude woman.
What do women of about that age, late 40s-early 50s, look for in a man.. sense of humour, big plus for any woman.
He maintains himself economically, physically. Isn’t looking for a woman to collapse on, is ok with children, because many single women in that age range could still have dependent children, given the later start in breeding these days.
Re SUBHUB, he’s fifty years old and already some here are talking ED. My marriage ended when my husband was six months off sixty, and he managed natural erections till then, though I did notice they weren’t as rock hard.. and he was diabetic. It’s like when people talk of The Change, as if all women experience it the same way. If men are losing function, I’d be looking to diet etc as being involved for some.
This man says nothing about not being able to come, physically. Yes, a young man could give the wife what she wants, wait five minutes and go play by himself, once she’s asleep.

Maybe there’s dating sites for virgins! Has he looked? Everything else out there.
Confidence and being ok about himself, as is, and dealing with his negative thoughts about himself, ie, change them to positive ones.

SUBHUB and wife have sex twice a week, together fifteen yrs, children around. Ages, we aren’t told.
Could they schedule thrice a week and the third one he gets to keep his spunk for his private session.
You aren’t been fair here, SUBHUB, because your wife is heating you up during PIV, and off you sneak to share that heat with your toys and fantasies. Lots of avenues you two could travel down. You sound solid together, so work on the ease between you to keep exploring sexually with each other. Good luck.

@175 psd
"what a jerk"

You're right. As I said I do appreciate your good intentions. And you didn't deserve to have me correct your good-hearted advice, I'm sorry.

I'm afraid I've been advising people (and supervising a team of people who advise people) with severe RSI for so very long that I couldn't help reacting to your advice with authoritativeness I have the credentials (which I've already said more about than I'm comfortable doing) to merit. Because connected to my desire to help people with RSI with proper advice, is concern that people might be harmed by improper advice. You didn't deserve to be caught in the crossfire of that, I apologize.

WA-HOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Okay, Dan the Man and everybody----Griz is now visible among the comment threads. Jack chandelier, Traffic Spiral, and others annoyed by my little numbers game will know when to skip over and / or scroll down.
My new avatar, thanks to my amazing tech friend, Laron, is in honor of the late, great Peter Tork of Monkees fame, who passed away last year. Rest in peace, Peter--and Davy Jones. :)

@180 griz
good decision to use a female avatar

Grizelda, that is a good look for you! I like the colours. This girl is rockin’, just like you.

Curious @169: "Just keep trying what you've been trying" is not good advice. "Try something different" is good advice, and that's what a lot of us have been doing. I agree that he should target his search; after all this discussion, it seems you and I are broadly in agreement, only holding different opinions on whom exactly he should be targeting his search on. Your ruling out women with more experience than him would leave him with far too few options; "women who have experience but are not conventionally attractive" is a much larger group and his odds are reasonably good there, too.

Lava @176: "What do women of about that age, late 40s-early 50s, look for in a man." What about women in their late 50s or 60s? He may appear better to women who are older than he is, whom men in their own age group have forgotten. Agree with your assessment of what women are looking for. Is he funny, is he kind, does he have the right politics. Does he take care of himself. Get these women friends to go shopping with him, spruce up his wardrobe. Update his hairstyle, make sure any facial hair is well kept and clean. Does he listen to her. Is he financially stable. Another thought I had is that he could get a dog, they're total chick magnets. A small and cute breed of course. Walk that dog and women will come say hi to it, and to him. (Post covid of course.) He has no reason to think that there is no hope for him.

BDF @162: Ah yes, that does seem to be what John meant @155, and indeed it's true: ageing is a bastard. But it's not what SUBHUB said in his letter. He's banking his mojo for alone time with his toys. He said "I like it this way because I don’t lose my sex drive and I can continue." His signoff should have been BADSUB.

Griz @180: Congratulations on the avatar! Very good choice, and totes apropos!

C'mon other regulars... Do it!!! I'd love to see Mr. Venn with Mr. Crisp's evocative image from IMDB, and Harriet with a picture of some actual bulrushes.

LavaGirl @178

You have a different interpretation of SUBHUB's and his wife's marriage as being "solid". How can it be when his behaviour is so passive-aggressive?

I get the impression that, when he and his wife adopted this new relationship style, he thought he'd hit the jackpot = that his wife would be pegging him all the time in order to assert her dominance over his body. But, instead, she ignores his ass and prefers to control his orgasms, wanting to receive his "tribute" where she deems it most appropriate.

So, what does he do? He denies his wife what she wants, withholds coming, and goes off to satisfy the NRE he's having with his toys. I definitely agree he's a BADSUB (and not a SUBHUB).

These two need to have many long talks OUTSIDE of the dynamic - to be truly honest with one another.

@183 BDF
"it seems you and I are broadly in agreement"

Thank you for saying this, I've been thinking just that. (Specifically, that we both want him to both increase his own appeal, and not aim too high. I'd say my emphasis, since the former is a long-term project, is that in the short-term he do the later.)

"Your ruling out women with more experience than him would leave him with far too few options; "women who have experience but are not conventionally attractive" is a much larger group and his odds are reasonably good there, too."

Of course I wouldn't put it exactly like that.

For one, I'm trying to generalize beyond physical attractiveness to 'league on the dating market' (since non-physical characteristics also affect one's success in that market).

I mean, he can (I certainly would in his shoes) target (in the online-dating sense of swiping right on) everyone he wants to.

Your 'maybe he's too picky' is plausible, but given the stuff he said about himself that might cause him to have difficulty in the dating market, and the fact that he's 53-years old and has never /had/ any success in the dating market, I think for now his highest-probability of success is with others who've had about the same complete absence of success.

Which is the focus of my advice. But as a guy, I can't imagine I need to tell another guy to also swipe right on women he fancies which the dating market values more highly.

@185 fubar
"Harriet with a picture of some actual bulrushes."

I /loved/ the bulrush avatars I made for Harriet and linked to at https://www.thestranger.com/savage-love/2019/11/05/41892410/savage-love/comments/71
(In the same thread where I made the first one griz asked for.)

My offer remains open to all regulars to make (and if they wish to find the images for) avatars for them. (The distinction just being that once an image is found--say via google image search--one would expect to need to trim it to focus on some part of it.)

Fubar @184, like I said in my first comment, that wasn't clear. It could be that he's losing his ability to come during PIV and he's choosing to see that as a good thing instead of trying to fix the issue for his wife's sake. I elaborated on page 1 if you're interested.

Curious @187, and how does he know from an app who's had a similar level of experience as he has and who hasn't? You'd be surprised whom "the dating market values." Someone who's not conventionally attractive might be bubbly and outgoing and get lots of dates. Again, your limiting factor would limit his choices to the point where he may as well not bother, which is why I continue to dispute it as reasonable advice.

@189 BDF
"You'd be surprised whom "the dating market values.""

Which is why my advice is to find someone the dating market doesn't value. I've said before that I've said nothing about finding

"Someone who's not conventionally attractive"

In other words knowledge of /whom/ the dating market values is of no practical relevance to VIRGIN as regards my advice. But your

"and how does he know from an app who's had a similar level of experience as he has and who hasn't?"

is an interesting question. The answer is I'm not asking him to /know/ (remember me specifying I don't seek to limit his swiping?).

My intent is for him to /tell/ so that the right match for him will recognize that in his profile. To tell that he has inexperience and issues.

This will harm his chances...at the ones time has demonstrated he has no shot at. This will improve his chances...at the ones he has a shot at.

Dear VIRGIN, If your preference is not to see a sex worker, then I don't think you should. There must be a woman out there, probably on the dominant side, who would be interested in being your first sexual partner. Too often, heterosexual women have to deal with overconfident men who are convicted they know what women want, but sadly, they do not. Here is a man who recognizes his inexperience, is willing to learn from you, and would more than likely be very appreciative of your company. To be honest, I find the scenario very sexy myself. I think you should just be honest about who you are and what you are looking for. Surely, I cannot be the only woman out there who feels intrigued by this possibility.